Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Feb 1943

Vol. 89 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate: Castlecomer Coalmine Strike.

Mr. Cosgrave

This is a very unusual matter to bring before the Dáil. In so far as the dispute itself is concerned, I do not propose to enter into its merits, nor do I think the Dáil is the proper place for resolving industrial disputes or questions in respect of which feeling runs high outside. The Department of Industry and Commerce is charged with the responsibility of dealing with those matters, and they are usually best left to the officers who have that responsibility rather than that they should be ventilated here in the Dáil. The Minister, in the course of his reply to-day, said he understood that the purpose of the strike now proceeding at the Castlecomer mine is to compel the Government to alter the provisions of Emergency Powers (No. 166) Order by excluding coalmine workers from its scope. That is not my interpretation of the issue which is at present disturbing industrial conditions down in Castlecomer.

There were two phases in the course of this dispute, one of which is happily ended. Outside of the persons immediately concerned, I think that everybody who had the interests of the miners and of the district at heart was well pleased when the stay-in strike came to an end. In so far as any contribution from the men is concerned, I take it, having regard to the determination which was shown in the step they took on that occasion, that they have made an advance towards a settlement by ceasing that particular phase of the struggle.

The Minister, in the course of his reply to-day, stated that he set up a committee of inquiry to investigate the conditions of the industry, and that the recommendations of the committee were implemented in full by the sixth amendment of the Emergency Powers (No. 83) Order which permitted a further increase in the remuneration paid. He further went on to say that the tribunal to which the matter was referred had it under consideration on the 22nd January, and, but for the strike, it might be assumed that the application would have resulted in the making of a bonus Order. The dates in this case is not very material but, so far as my information is concerned, the tribunal sat on the 22nd January and the strike took place on the 25th January. It might have been reasonably expected that a decision could have been given on the 23rd January, or perhaps even on the evening of the 22nd, because the circumstances were such in this particular case, or in fact in any case where there is a dispute of the kind, that the earlier a decision of that sort was come to the better.

I take it from what the Minister said that some decision must have been arrived at, or at any rate that the proposals were fairly ripe for an actual decision. But, in the course of his reply, the Minister went on to say that amongst the grievances which were voiced by the Castlecomer miners was the fact that their tonnage rates are lower than those operating at other collieries. That, according to my information, is the whole sum and substance of this dispute. In the next part of that particular paragraph the Minister, who is generally fair throughout the whole of the statement, goes on to say that in the case of those collieries which are not modern or not well-equipped, or which are in the earlier stages of their development, extra prices have to be allowed for the coal that is won from them. Let us take that statement as it stands. At the present moment there is no competition as between mine and mine. There is sufficient demand for any coal that is mined in any mine in this country. In fact, the demand far exceeds the supply. So that, in so far as the relative merits of one colliery and another are concerned, they are not at issue here.

The Minister further states in that paragraph that he sees some difficulties, and I am sure that there are some difficulties in the way in connection with a matter of this sort. But, let us assume for a moment that the coal from one mine costs £X to produce, that £X plus £Y can be secured for that in the market without any difficulty, and that they are in a position to make a profit on that £X plus £Y. It is obvious that those who are employed in a mine only two, three or four miles away will have an objection when they see a price of only £X being paid for what they are mining. They are doing the same work, they are employed in the same business, they are working the same hours and they suffer under the same disabilities. The fact that there is a discrimination against them in a case of this sort is what is at the root of this dispute.

It is particularly satisfactory to note that the production of coal from the Castlecomer mine went up more than 60 per cent. in 1942 over 1940. There is evidence there of appreciation of the national need of the moment. The output is certainly satisfactory to an outsider like myself. I am sure that the more coal that is mined in that place the more satisfactory it will be for everybody.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I should like to intervene to correct an error in the statement I made. Figures are given there as to the production of anthracite coal. That production was not confined to Castlecomer colliery. There has been an increase in Castlecomer, but the particular figures given would represent the total production of anthracite. As the Deputy is aware, the statement was prepared at short notice and that error crept in.

Mr. Cosgrave

I presume the Minister will admit that so far as 1942 as compared with 1940 is concerned, there has been an improvement?

Mr. Lemass

Certainly.

Mr. Cosgrave

We cannot claim an increase of 60 per cent., but there was an improvement. The position shortly is this: There are two phases in this problem, the local and the national. The local one is concerned with the coal miners and the coal owners in Castlecomer and the surrounding districts. It is vital for them that an early stop should be put to this dispute. It is in the interests of everybody that it should be resolved. Then there is the national side of it, that at the moment we need this coal and need it badly and that there is a demand for it. There is natural resentment on the part of the people down there of a matter of this sort which they conceive to be a very serious deterrent to their prosperity. It looks to them as if there were favourable consideration for one mine and unfair discrimination against another. The history of this country is against centralisation, and I think that, in the circumstances of this case, the Minister should not persist in the claim that as long as a strike is persisted in the Government will not consider any demand of this kind.

Already there has been a contribution from the men in connection with this matter. Surely there ought to be an approach from the Government on the same basis. For a long time I was a representative of this district. The Deputy who represented Kilkenny in the interests of this Party died in the last few years. Therefore it was only natural that they should approach me in the matter. There is no political significance whatever attaching to this dispute. My information is that supporters of the three different Parties who at the last election were represented in that constituency are anxious to have this matter closed as early as possible. My information, for what it is worth, is that an advertisement showing the price of Castlecomer coal, compared with the price of some other coal, was refused publication in the Press. Whether there is any truth in that or not, I do not know. However, this is a matter in which there is no dispute between the coal owners and the coal miners. They are both agreed. It is quite true that they have had a head-on collision with an ordinance which prescribes that while a strike is going on nothing can be done. In the interests of the peace of the district, in the best interests of the industry of the country, and in order to bring about those relations which ought to exist in normal times, but even more so in a time of emergency, I think that the condition in respect of a strike existing should be waived and that this matter should be resolved in a manner which will reflect credit upon all the persons concerned.

Mr. Pattison

I do not think there is anything I can add to the statement made by Deputy Cosgrave; but, as a representative of the constituency, and having spent the greater portion of last week trying to deal with the very difficult situation there, I feel that the Minister ought to reconsider the attitude which he indicated to-day.

There is no question whatever of any political significance being attached to this matter. I was in the local hall the other evening, when a meeting was called to discuss the matter. Many prominent people were there, representing all sections of the community, all shades of public opinion, and different religious denominations, and they were all satisfied that if the miners could be induced to abandon this regrettable stay-in strike, every effort should be made to get the Minister to meet them half-way in the matter. Everybody is satisfied that the miners have a very big grievance. The local clergy spoke very strongly in that regard, and I am quite sure that if the Minister were to hold an inquiry on the spot, he would find that there is a considerable grievance there, and that it was not actually born as a result of this emergency, but is a very long-standing grievance. I think it must be admitted, also, that if the strike at Castlecomer should continue it would be very serious for the people of this country. It is almost impossible to get coal now, as we all know, but it must be remembered that the miners of Castlecomer stuck to their job in former days — with the support of the people of the counties of Kilkenny, Leix, Offaly and Carlow — but even with the advent of a native Government here, not very much was done for them.

In this emergency period, everybody is in need of fuel and, as Deputy Cosgrave has pointed out, coal, no matter where it comes from, is urgently required, and if this regrettable dispute is not brought to a close, it will have very serious consequences from the national point of view. Most of our people are depending at the present moment on fuel produced from our own resources, and it would be very serious if this dispute should continue. Of course, in speaking of Castlecomer, I also include other mines, such as Arigna, Wolfhill, Slieveardagh, and so on. I appeal to the Minister, therefore, to try to meet the situation to the extent that we are advocating this evening, because the sooner this dispute is brought to a conclusion the better it will be, not alone for the miners of Castlecomer and the people of Kilkenny, but for the welfare of the industry and the nation as a whole.

Mr. Davin

I am very anxious——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has to get the usual ten minutes to reply.

Mr. Davin

Yes, Sir, but I shall only take a few moments.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very good.

Mr. Davin

I am very anxious to see this strike brought to a conclusion. Some of the miners there are from my own constituency and, as the Minister knows, some of them are involved in this dispute. I have had some previous experience of dealing with the miners at Castlecomer. For instance, it is just about eight years ago that, after a consultation with the Minister's colleague — the Minister for Education —I accompanied the Chairman of the Seanad on a deputation to deal with a dispute at that time, and I am glad to say that we were able to settle it. I think I understand the mentality of the miners there, as a result of the meeting we had at that time, and I was also present at the meeting that was held on last Sunday night, where representatives of the miners, the local clergy, and prominent people representing all classes were present. Everybody there was delighted with the action of the miners in coming to the surface, and it was thought that it should be possible to find an easy way out of the difficulty and end the present dispute, have peace restored, and the men go back to their work, which is of such great national importance. Accordingly, I appeal to the Minister now to take the big view of this situation and not rely on red-tape regulations which are enshrined in Ministerial Orders. I appeal to him to use the powers which he has to bring about a conference with the parties interested in the dispute, under the chairmanship of an official of his Department. I do not propose to enter into the merits of the dispute in this House, because I think it is too delicate a matter to discuss in this House, and in any case it would not lead to any satisfactory result, but I do appeal to the Minister to take the big view of the situation and use the powers which he has, because I am sure that if he were to do so it would lead to an early and happy termination of this dispute.

Mr. Lemass

I think that Deputies must grasp the fact that the circumstances of this dispute are of a distinct character from other trade disputes in the past. It is not like any trade dispute that has arisen in the past, or even like any dispute in connection with Irish coal mines in the past. Strikes in coal mines in Ireland are not unusual. Anybody who understands the arduous conditions and hardships of those who work in Irish coal mines can easily understand that grievances may occasionally arise which occasion demands being made by the workers on their employers for an improvement of their conditions. Where, in the past, a dispute of that kind arose, my Department intervened for the purpose of assisting in the negotiation of a settlement of the dispute and, not infrequently, we have been helpful in settling such disputes, but this is not a dispute of that kind. This is an effort by the miners to force the Government, by a withdrawal of their labour, to change the law. It is quite clear that there is much more involved in that than the production of coal and that the consequences that would follow from the success of this effort would be very serious for the country. The Government has considered it necessary to impose restrictions upon increases in wages, to limit such increases in accordance with the terms of Emergency Powers (No. 166) Order. Whether Deputies think the Government is acting wisely or not in pursuing that policy does not arise now.

The Government considers that these restrictions are essential in the national interests. The Government has made Orders for the purpose of imposing these restrictions. They apply to all classes of workers. If this one section of workers, by the withdrawal of its labour and the consequent curtailment of coal production, could force the Government into amending that Order in their interests, inevitably, every other section of workers in similar essential industries would be urged by irresponsible people amongst them to take similar action. The Government cannot possibly concede what these coal miners are demanding. I am sure all reasonable Deputies and all reasonable people throughout the country appreciate that. This is one thing that cannot be done and I think Deputies are not doing a service to these workers in leaving them under any impression that the Government can be driven to amend the law by reason of a strike of this kind.

These workers are subject to the restrictions that have been imposed by Emergency Powers (No. 166) Order. They are entitled to the benefits which that Order makes it possible for workers to secure and they did proceed to formulate an application, under the Order, for a bonus. That application went forward to a tribunal. Perhaps it was not dealt with as expeditiously as some other applications are dealt with because it was considered desirable that it should be heard in conjunction with similar applications from collieries in the same area so that, if an increase in wages occurred, it would be of general and not of local application. But the application did go forward and was heard by a tribunal. My assumption that the application would have resulted in a bonus Order was based on the fact that it was made jointly by the employers and the workers concerned. Then the workers went on strike, or were induced to go on strike, in the belief that they could secure an alteration in the Government Order to the extent of excluding them altogether from its scope. If they understand that they cannot succeed in that, then the strike must end. If the strike does end, then the machinery of the Emergency Powers Order can be operated to procure whatever increase in wages is permissible under that Order.

I know that there is in the minds of many of the workers of Castlecomer a feeling that the Government is in some way discriminating against them. I want to avail of this opportunity to remove any such impression. I fear that that impression has been created by the company that are employing them. In the past, that company had an arrangement in which the rates of wages of the workers were related to the price of coal. That arrangement has been ended by the Emergency Powers Order, but this company, anxious to secure an increase in the price permitted to be charged for its coal, has created in the minds of the workers the impression that if they succeed in increasing the price of their coal the workers will automatically get an increase in their wages. The price permitted to be charged for Castlecomer coal is yielding a good profit to the Castlecomer Colliery Company. This company has made good profits in the past. It has been a most paying investment for its owners, and their contention that they should be allowed to charge the same price as other collieries are permitted to charge is completely unjustifiable. Their costs of production are much lower. If we are to fix a uniform price for Irish anthracite coal upon the basis of the cost of production in the least efficient or newest mine, then that price will give to the Castlecomer Company grossly excessive profits.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Do you apply that to flour milling?

Mr. Lemass

The same principle is applied to flour.

Mr. D. Morrissey

Is it?

Mr. Lemass

Let me get it clear. The wages of the Castlecomer workers are controlled under Emergency Powers (No. 166) Order and are not related to the price charged for Castlecomer coal. To some extent, so far as one can judge from references in the paper, this strike at Castlecomer has been represented as a strike for a higher permitted price for Castlecomer coal. Even if we were to permit an increase in the price of Castlecomer coal, because of the Emergency Powers Order an increase in the wages of the workers would not follow. Such an increase can be secured only through the operation of Emergency Powers (No. 166) Order. I know that the leaders of the men's union fully appreciate the situation and understand that in the particular effort upon which the workers are now engaged they cannot succeed. No amendment of the Emergency Powers Order can or will follow from the strike. When the strike is over, the particular matters to which special reference has been made will come up again for consideration. These matters are two-fold. The workers in Castlecomer have this feeling of discrimination against them because they know that the tonnage rates now paid to colliers in other mines are higher than their tonnage rates. I think Deputy Cosgrave misunderstood that reference. A collier is paid on the basis of the quantity of coal he produces. The tonnage rates referred to in that particular paragraph of my reply to the Parliamentary Question are the rates allowed to the colliers for the quantity of coal they produce. These rates are higher at other mines.

Mr. Pattison

Only in the one, the neighbouring mine.

Mr. Lemass

The particular reference has been made to the mine in the Swan. The rates at the Swan are higher because the quantity of coal which a collier can produce in that mine in a shift is substantially less than the quantity of coal which a collier at Castlecomer can produce. A collier at Castlecomer produces on the average about 32½ cwts. of coal per shift. A collier at the Swan mine produces a substantially lower quantity. Clearly, therefore, if you had uniform tonnage rates for both mines——

Mr. Pattison

Will the Minister state the quantity in each case?

Mr. Lemass

I did not state the quantity for the Swan because that has not yet been established. A figure has been given by the management of that company, the accuracy of which is not yet fully established, but it is quite clear that there can be no question that in that mine, which has only recently been opened up, which is not a well-organised, old-established mine like that at Castlecomer, the output of coal per individual worker per shift is substantially lower. The point I want to make is this, that if you had uniform tonnage rates, the earnings of a collier at Castlecomer would be substantially higher than the earnings of a collier at the Swan. It is alleged by the Castlecomer colliers, and by the company, that the earnings at the Swan are now higher than at Castlecomer, and that in consequence there has been a tendency for workers to leave Castlecomer to go to the Swan.

Mr. Pattison

A substantial number.

Mr. Lemass

I am not so sure that is so, but, whether it is so or not, I want to say that before this strike started I had brought into conference the managements of both mines—I understand that they now cover also the Rossmore Colliery in the County Carlow — for the purpose of trying to arrive at an agreement as to tonnage rates which would give uniform earnings at each colliery for a worker of equal skill in the same class. The advantage, from my point of view, of getting established a system of rates which would produce uniform earnings is that it would remove any financial inducement for workers to leave employment at one colliery and seek it at another, since such a movement of skilled workers disorganises production. I am as anxious as the workers and as the colliery managements to ensure that uniform earnings will be established. Conferences to try to establish a basis for rates which would ensure uniform earnings were, in fact, being held when the strike occurred.

The two points, therefore, upon which the Castlecomer workers have been led to believe that there is discrimination against them resolve themselves, on examination, into a misunderstanding. Inevitably, the cost of producing coal at the smaller recently opened mines will be higher than at Castlecomer which is an old-established and well-organised mine. Consequently, if there are to be only reasonable profits allowed to the mine proprietors the pit-head price permitted will be different at each mine. A uniform price, which must cover the cost of production at the most costly mine, will yield excessive profits to the other mine. There cannot, therefore, be a uniform price, and the absence of a uniform price does not imply any discrimination against Castlecomer. Similarly, in so far as the output per worker per shift is different in one mine as compared to another, uniform tonnage rates for colliers will not produce uniform earnings. I am anxious to have some system established which will produce uniform earnings, but if you are to have such a system there will, nevertheless. be varying tonnage rates which must vary according to the circumstances of each mine. While there are at present only three collieries in the Leinster coalfields — I am not counting Slieveardagh because it is not properly in production yet— and there may eventually be more— no matter how many there are, I think we should endeavour to ensure that the bases of earnings are similar so that there will be no inducement for workers to leave employment in one mine to go to another.

In so far as every trade dispute is primarily a matter of getting more wages, I want the workers at Castlecomer, the workers at Arigna and other collieries to understand that the limitations applied by Emergency Powers (No. 166) Order apply to them and to all workers. The Government examines from time to time the provisions of that Order in relation to the prevailing circumstances. It has amended the Order from time to time on changes occurring in the circumstances or upon representations from affected interests. It may change that Order in the future. If it does change the Order in the future, the benefit of such changes will be available not only to the workers in the coalmines but to all other workers. It is not possible to grant to one section of workers an exemption from this control while holding others to it. In conclusion, I want to say that I fully appreciate the statements made by Deputies that there is no political basis for the dispute in Castlecomer.

Mr. Davin

None whatever.

Mr. Lemass

I am sure that is so in the case of Castlecomer, but I am not sure about Arigna. In the case of Castlecomer, the discontent which has evidently existed amongst the workers there for some time past is the sole cause of the dispute. Discontent existed there on other occasions, and it was following the evidence of its existence that I set up the committee of inquiry which reported last year and which led to an amendment of Emergency Powers (No. 83) Order. I know that discontent exists now. In so far as there are justifiable causes for that discontent, I am prepared to examine and investigate the possibility of removing it, but I think it must be clearly understood that this strike directed towards forcing the hands of the Government to amend the Order cannot succeed. Neither can the Government enter into discussions or negotiations with the parties concerned while the strike continues.

Mr. Davin

Is the Minister prepared to set up another inquiry?

Mr. Lemass

I am not prepared to give any promise.

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister has power to stop a train. If it is going, has he the power to stop it? Under this Order a tribunal was set up. It came to the point of issuing its report and had practically issued it. I wonder if the Minister was right in putting a stop to that? The sooner we get out of this mess the better.

Mr. Lemass

Emergency Powers (No. 166) Order gives the Minister for Industry and Commerce power to make a bonus Order if he is satisfied that the consent of the employer to join in the application for the bonus Order was not secured by a strike or threatened strike. I am satisfied that that was not the case in this particular instance. I accepted the application as a bona fide application, not subject to be rejected on that ground, and referred it to the tribunal. I am not aware that the strike has any relationship to that application. I think it may be reasonably assumed by the workers concerned that, on the termination of the strike, the recommendation of the tribunal, whatever it may be — I do not yet know what it is — will be implemented.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.10 p.m. until Thursday, the 4th February, 1943, at 3 p.m.