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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Feb 1943

Vol. 89 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 34—Prisons.

Mr. Boland

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim breise ná raghaidh thar £9,761 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1943, chun Costaisí Príosun Fundúireachta Borstal agus Cothabhála na nGealt gCuirpthe a coinnítear in Oispidéil Mheabhar-Ghalar Cheanntair (17 & 18 Vict., c. 76; 34 & 35 Vict., c. 112, a. 6; 40 & 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 & 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 & 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. 7, c. 17, a. 3; 8 Edw. 7, c. 59; agus 4 & 5 Geo. 5, c. 58).

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £9,761 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1943, for the Expense of Prisons, the Borstal Institution and the Maintainance of Criminal Lunatics, confined in District Mental Hospitals (17 and 18 Vict., c. 76; 34 and 35 Vict., c. 112, sec. 6; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 and 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 and 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. 7, c. 17, sec. 3; 8 Edw. 7, c. 59; and 4 and 5 Geo. 5, c. 58).

An additional sum of £9,761 is required for the prisons service for the year 1942/3. This additional expenditure is practically entirely due to the increase in the prison population during the year. The original estimate provided for a daily average of 615 prisoners, whereas the daily number in custody reached a peak point of 857 during the year.

Mainly for the larceny of bicycles.

Mr. Boland

The increase in the number in custody was due mainly to the number of persons convicted of house-breaking and larceny. The figures for Mountjoy Prison in this respect may be of interest to Deputies.

A Deputy

Half of them are not caught yet.

Mr. Boland

They are not. They are a different type of person from the ordinary criminals. In Mountjoy, in 1941, the number of committals for house-breaking was 86, and in 1942, 123; for larceny, in 1941, 339, and in 1942, 666—almost double the number. The increase in the number of prisoners in custody is reflected in the additional sums required under the following sub-heads of the Vote: (a) Pay and allowance of officers, including uniform, (b) Victualling, (c) Clothing, bedding, furniture, etc.; (g) escort and conveyance. For the pay and allowance of officers the additional sum required is £1,720. It was necessary, in order effectively to supervise the additional prisoners in custody, to recruit a number of temporary warders through Employment Exchanges. The increase in bonus which was granted during the year is responsible for portion of the additional expenditure. The increased amount required for victualling is £3,415. In addition to the increase in the number of prisoners, there has been a general rise in the price of foodstuffs. The annual cost of feeding a prisoner increased from £20 19s. 6d. to £23 8s. 0d. during the year. The increased amount required in the case of clothing is £155. The increase under this sub-head is small and is again due to the increased number of prisoners. In the case of escort and conveyance, the additional amount required is £2,550. In addition to the increase in this sub-head occasioned by the rise in numbers, other factors have operated to swell expenditure, e.g., (a) rise in charges for motor hire; (b) curtailment of rail services resulting in longer absences of prison officers engaged in court duty; and (c) frequent transfers from Limerick prison to prevent overcrowding in that establishment consequent on Cork prison not being available for ordinary prisoners.

In the case of fuel and light, etc., the additional sum required is £1,220. The increase under this sub-head is not due to the increased number in custody. It has been caused mainly by the fact that we have had to use wood and turf in lieu of coal for firing the boilers at Mountjoy Prison. The increase of £2,450 in the manufacturing department and farms is almost entirely offset by the increased yield from Appropriations-in-Aid.

There is one item under the heading of Escorts and Conveyance which the Minister would do well to look into. It is a matter which is costing the State quite a lot of money and wasting a lot of petrol which would be very valuable for other purposes. It is all occasioned, in the south, at any rate, by the fact that Cork prison is not being used. The type of case to which I want to draw attention is a case where an offender is charged with a minor larceny. That person is remanded by a peace commissioner and taken to Limerick prison and has to be brought before the District Court in the area where the offence occurred within seven days. That means that the prisoner is driven on a Monday in a motor car, say, from Castletownbere to Limerick prison, which would be, practically, 200 miles by road, and, possibly, brought back to the Bandon District Court or the Clonakilty District Court some few days afterwards. The difficulty is that, as the law stands, a person must be brought back for trial before the district justice of the area in which he was charged before the peace commissioner. In 90 per cent. of these cases you will get pleas of "guilty" or, if the cases are contested, the jurisdiction of the District Court is accepted by the prisoners, who will not elect to go for trial before a judge and jury.

It strikes me that if, for the emergency at any rate, some method could be adopted whereby the prisoner could be brought before the district justice in the area where the prison is situated, it would get over the difficulty. It would make no difference to the prisoners, as 90 per cent. of them are people who are not particularly concerned about what type of legal aid they get. They are not anxious to be driven 150 miles to employ a particular solicitor. Even if it were done by emergency order, something should be done in these cases where a person is charged with a minor offence. If the person is taken to Limerick prison, he could be brought before the district justice in that area. I think it is not unreasonable to ask that that should be done, because it is ridiculous to see a police car travelling a couple of hundred miles for the sake of a case which may only take about five seconds to hear in the District Court.

Mr. Boland

I will look into that matter.

On this Estimate last year there was a great hullabaloo about what was occurring, which to me seemed only a passing phase in this country. To-day the Minister slurs over the abnormal increase in burglary and housebreaking cases. I would much prefer if the Minister opened up on that and enlightened the House as to what steps he proposes to take in regard to it. I am never alarmed at any increase in petty offences, as it may be a passing phase. But these cases are really alarming and I should like to hear from the Minister what steps he is taking to meet them. So far as I can see, the position has reached such a stage that people have come to the conclusion that the persons committing those offences are armed when they come to the houses, with the result that, although people may be upstairs while the burglars are in a house, they are afraid to come down or to raise any alarm. If that spreads, it will create a very serious condition of affairs in this country. It is quite easy to say things and to make charges about the extension of crime. The important thing is to grapple with it. As far as I see, the problem arises from the fact that there are not sufficient Guards and, in the main, the time of the Guards is taken up with a lot of detailed work which, strictly speaking, is not police work at all but work connected with other Departments, for instance, enforcing the School Attendance Act, looking after unlicensed bulls, and things like that. There may be only three men and a sergeant in a station and one man is off duty every day.

All these duties are imposed on the Guards by legislation of this House.

This House does funny things. I only want to refer to the effects of them. I think the Minister will have to approach this matter seriously and perhaps, later on, the House will be called upon to deal with it. Extraordinary powers may have to be taken in connection with it. So far as I can be of help to the Minister, I would suggest that he will have to increase the number of Guards in rural Ireland in order that there may be one or two extra men in every station who will be free to deal exclusively with criminal matters or, if he cannot see his way to do that, that he will have to organise the L.D.F. or the L.S.F. to act in co-operation with the Guards in doing patrol duty at night. I do not make that statement loosely and haphazardly. If that idea were adopted, it would have to be carried out in a systematic way. I do not think we can expect to get efficient service in enforcing the law without making proper provision. We cannot ask these men to do that work on a voluntary basis. We cannot reasonably expect them to go out on dark winter nights, when it is most essential that they should be out, on a voluntary basis. They may do it in a district for a week or ten days. I take it that they are on duty all night.

The Minister should take active steps to deal with this matter. If he does not do so, it will get completely out of hands and will reach a crisis. In that event very serious steps might have to be taken and the numbers of the Guards might have to be seriously increased. It is quite possible that with some plan for the coordination of the Guards with the L.D.F. the problem could be solved but it would have to be done in a systematic way, on a sound basis. In my opinion, it is no use simply asking the L.D.F. to do police duty at night, and to do it effectively, without some financial provision to compensate them for the sacrifices they will have to make. It would not do to put them on for a night now and a night again; they would have to go on duty every night or alternative nights. Alternatively, the number of Guards should be increased to provide at least two men extra in every barrack in the State.

I do not know what is coming over the country. It may be that the shortage of certain things has started this wave of housebreaking. It may be that men have lost employment and are now short of money and in desperation are doing these things. Whatever is the cause, it is not justifiable. I think the matter is reaching such serious proportions that the Minister should take immediate action in the matter. I am not saying that in order to raise alarm. The Minister has received returns from all over the country. He knows exactly the position. The figures he quoted here this evening speak for themselves but, over and above the actual convictions, there is a number of cases where there are no convictions. The Minister has reports of these from police officers throughout the country. I would like some details to be given to the House so that we might get a picture of the general trend.

I had these things in my mind on the occasion of the Estimate last year. Everybody in the House raised a furore about a simple matter and everybody, apparently, closed down on the serious matter of crime. I felt there was some misunderstanding about it owing to the atmosphere in the House and I closed down on it. I regretted having done so afterwards. I regretted that I did not say what I had intended to say. I do not want to overstate the case or to create unnecessary alarm but the House can appreciate, from the figures given by the Minister this evening, the trend of events in the country. I think we should have regard to the old maxim that prevention is better than cure and if in the last analysis, we are confronted with the fact that we will have to increase the number of Guards, the position should be dealt with in an effective way so as not to allow the country to drift into a situation that it would take a huge effort to remedy. If persons knew that the arm of the law was strong enough there would not be a temptation to commit crime.

Owing to the limited number of Guards in certain districts, there are whole tracts of country where it is impossible for the Guards to have any control. There are stretches of 10, 15, 20 and 25 miles of country in which there is no Guard at all. There is temptation to men who have lost employment. They may be hungry. They may be in need of things. I do not like the trend of events. Some of these things may be very petty in themselves but they reveal a grave tendency. I would like the Minister to tell us what reports he has received and if he proposes taking any steps to co-ordinate the Guards and the auxiliary forces. If this state of things continues people will become alarmed, and if law-breakers are armed they will take no steps to resist them.

A matter arises on this Vote in connection with transportation of prisoners. It is a matter that can be rectified by some adjustment in the regulations of the Department. In the town of Wexford we have a very serious transport situation in regard to travelling north from the town. There is only one bus, which leaves at 4 o'clock. There is no train after 9 o'clock in the morning. It is a well-known fact that many people are left behind. One evening I witnessed three prisoners and four attendants boarding the bus. The three prisoners were convicted in the local District Court and had been sentenced to be sent to Mountjoy Prison in Dublin. Under the regulations, one of the prisoners being a female, it was necessary to have a female attendant. In addition, there were three others—I am not sure whether they were Guards or warders—and altogether there were seven passengers placed on the bus, to the inconvenience and discomfort of people who wanted to travel that day. I made enquiries in orded to discover why the prisoners and their attendants could not wait until the train next morning at 9 o'clock when, no doubt, there would be plenty of room for them. I was informed that there was no procedure under which the prisoners could be kept overnight in the town of Wexford. I do not know whether that was so, but that was the explanation given to me. I think it is a matter that is deserving of some consideration by the Department.

The Minister has intimated that this Supplementary Estimate is necessary in part to meet the rise in prices. We all know that that is somewhat inevitable in existing circumstances. I wonder if he has any figures to indicate the percentage increase in the foodstuffs used in the diet of prisoners. Perhaps he will furnish the House with some particulars.

Mr. Boland

I have not that information now, but I will get it later.

If the Minister will furnish me with that information later, I shall be grateful.

Mr. Boland

I shall do that.

As to the point raised by Deputy McMenamin, I do not know whether the Minister has any statistics to show in what areas the increase in charges of larceny and housebreaking arises. I have had many cases reported to me recently of housebreaking in and around the City of Dublin and many cases concerned with the snatching of ladies' handbags in the suburbs of the city. I think there is great need for increased police vigilance in some of the roadways in the suburbs. It might be advisable if the Gárda authorities made representations to the Dublin Corporation with the object of ensuring that there will be improved lighting along some of those roads. I know many roads along which, at night time, women would require to be fairly courageous in order to travel. I know many ladies who would not dream of walking along some of those roads even though it might not be late at night. Many bags have been snatched from ladies on roads of that kind. The bag-snatching has been facilitated, first, because one rarely sees, a policeman on these roads, and, second, because the lights are unnecessarily restricted and, where there is a light, it is unnecessarily cowled. I think the Minister ought seriously to consider the need for increased police supervision. These roads are the mecca of the bag-snatchers and the housebreakers. The Gárda authorities should request the corporation to provide better lighting in the areas where this type of crime has grown to serious proportions.

I should like to press the point made by Deputy McMenamin. When he speaks of the L.D.F., I think he would be satisfied to refer to the L.S.F., particularly with regard to the City of Dublin. I think it is very important at the present time that we should get a proper appreciation of this problem of housebreaking, larceny and bag-snatching. I think that whatever difficulties the Gárdaí have in this connection should be made the subject of discussion between the police chiefs and the chiefs of the L.S.F.

The L.S.F. was brought into being to assist the police. They are doing a fairly considerable amount of work in connection with traffic direction at certain hours on certain days. It would be much more important, from the point of view of public morals and public confidence, if it were shown that a very definite attempt was being made to stop this outbreak of larceny and housebreaking. If the L.S.F. were told that that is a definite matter in which they could stand in with the police, in order to assist the police, then I believe that whether they are on or off duty there will be an alertness and a sense of responsibility awakened in them and you will have a greater watch maintained in lighted or darkened streets. I suggest that once you call the L.S.F. in and give them a systematic responsibility in connection with this matter, you will strengthen public spirit and public opinion and the ordinary individuals or the men with special qualifications who are in the L.S.F. will be all brought into the scheme.

From what we hear in many directions, there would appear to be a very definite undermining of public confidence and assurance because of this outbreak of crime. It is definitely suggested in certain parts of the city that the police are weak in regard to this matter. There are some parts of the city where there is ample evidence that they are quite alive, but, on the other hand, there are sections of the city where people simply toss their heads when you talk about the police in connection with these matters. If the police were brought into more systematic touch with the chiefs of the L.S.F. and were brought a little more into touch with other people outside police organisations, I believe the weak spots in the police would be strengthened and they would be made more alert. If they did not become more alert, you would have a better chance of finding out where the weak spots are. I think something along these lines is very necessary, at least in and around the city.

I should like to call attention to the situation that exists in some of the suburbs. It would appear, from what I can gather, that there has been great difficulty in getting additional Gardaí. In certain districts limited numbers of Gárdaí have to do duty outside the houses of the Ministers and judges. In districts where there are numbers of Ministers and judges residing, the area is in this way absolutely denuded of Gárdaí, particularly at night-time. I suggest that the Minister might consider limiting the number of men on duty outside the residences of Ministers and judges and bring in members of the L.S.F. in order to assist in this duty. In that way numbers of Gárdaí would be released for ordinary police duties.

I have discussed this matter with certain officials and I find that burglaries and interference with individuals occur more or less in groups. The wrongdoers happen to know the particular police station which is left short of policemen. When they become aware that there are no policemen to do duty on a particular night, they carry on their operations. The Minister should take some steps to see if Gárda could not be relieved of the duty of watching Ministers' and judges' houses and members of the L.S.F. substituted. That will give the Gárdaí an opportunity to carry on their regular police work. I have had experience of cases being brought to the notice of the Gárdaí, and I am aware that they acted very promptly. I think it is only right that some recognition should be given to the prompt way in which they acted.

Mr. Boland

I think Deputy McMenamin suggested that I was more or less slurring over this matter. On a supplementary estimate it is not usual to enlarge on certain points. As a rule, that is done on the main Estimate. I have already drawn public attention to what has been happening. The fact that we will have to increase our expenditure because there are additional prisoners indicates that we are doing a good deal towards apprehending wrongdoers. In 1941 there were 399 prisoners for ordinary larcenies, and this year we have 666. I think that speaks for itself. Something has been done, at any rate. The number of prisoners has doubled, and that means that double the number must have been caught. I am prepared to admit that all have not been caught.

Does it not also mean that double the number of offences have been committed?

Mr. Boland

That may be so. I suppose there always will be a percentage of people who will escape. I did not expect a long debate on this. Ministers generally do not, and, frankly, I did not; and therefore I have not got the full statistics. I do not know whether the percentage of detections has gone down or up, and will have to go into that more fully. Generally speaking, one-third more prisoners than formerly have to be provided for all over the country, and that shows that we have caught a good number of them.

I have been going into this question of the L.S.F., but I do not think it would be easy to get L.S.F. men to do what Deputy Briscoe suggests. One could not expect to put them outside Ministers' houses and let the police off. It becomes a question of getting more police. We have not got the extra Gárdaí whom we were trying to recruit, as there was some disappointment in the examinations. We have not got as many as we expected, and none has been called up yet. We have been trying to remedy that. When it comes to a question of increasing the police force, we have to bear the cost in mind, and I am sure that Deputies opposite will admit that there has been a vigorous campaign against the increased expenditure on the Gárda Síochána. Deputy O'Higgins had several long letters in the Press, pointing out the big difference in the expenditure in 1927 and to-day, even though I showed that it was due, not to a greater number of police, but to the fact that men are longer in the Gárda and that they have got increments during those years, and that there is a very high percentage of married men now, with rent allowances and so on. If we want more police, we will have to pay for them.

You have to enforce the law and protect the lives and property of the people.

Mr. Boland

I think we are doing fairly well. It is not so easy now, as there is a different type of people stealing things—people no one ever dreamed would do it.

The Minister must get after them and see they do not.

Mr. Boland

When an unusual type of rogue comes along to steal, it is not so easy to get after him right away. It takes time. The fact that we have to provide for 33 per cent. more prisoners is at least an indication that the Gárdaí have been doing something.

I never suggested that they do not do their duty.

Mr. Boland

It is causing a lot of concern to me—I need not tell Deputies that—and anything I can do to grapple with it will be done. We will try to hurry up the recruitment of these extra Guards and get them as quickly as possible.

On the question which Deputy Esmonde raised about transport, I cannot say what the facilities in Wexford are for keeping people overnight. It is a fact that travel facilities have deteriorated so much that these things are, unfortunately, bound to happen. I will look into the Wexford question and see what can be done. With regard to Deputy Linehan's point about trying to have people brought before the district justice in the district in which the prison is, I will have to consider that. It seems a reasonable proposition. It may be necessary to make that arrangement by an Emergency Powers Order. It is a pity that Cork prison is not available. Clonmel is not available any longer to keep these boys. It is used at present by the Army.

In the cases I refer to, I think the Minister will find from the Gárda authorities that, if these people were asked whether they would consent to be tried by a justice where the prison is, say in Limerick, 99 per cent. of them would agree.

Mr. Boland

I will have that examined. Regarding the L.S.F., there is a certain amount of controlling and observing done, but not as much as is desirable. I will have the matter examined, to see what can be done in Dublin City, in particular. In regard to the lighting restrictions in the city, the Gárdaí would like to have as much light as possible, but there is an A.R.P. regulation regarding the cowling of lights. Everyone knows that that came in with the emergency. It is one of the difficulties with which the Gárdaí have to contend. I do not know whether anything can be done about it or not. I do not think the corporation alone could do anything, as the A.R.P. authorities would have to be consulted. I think there has been an improvement.

The whole standard of lighting in the suburbs is much lower than the standard of lighting in the city.

Mr. Boland

The Gárdaí are very anxious about this matter, as it is their desire to keep down the number of crimes committed in the darkness.

Vote put and agreed to.
Supplementary Estimates 46 to 34 reported and agreed to
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