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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Mar 1943

Vol. 89 No. 7

Cavan Fire Inquiry—Motion.

With regard to item No. 2 on the Order Paper, I wish to move an amended form of the motion, notice of which has been given to the Chair:

"That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for inquiring into the following definite matters of urgent public importance, that is to say:—

the cause of the fire which occurred during the night of Tuesday, 23rd February, 1943, at St. Joseph's Orphanage, Main Street, Cavan, and the circumstances in which loss of life was occasioned by the said fire, and to make such recommendations in relation thereto as the tribunal may think proper."

In view of the terms of this motion, Sir, I think it would not be proper to say very much about the circumstances which have made it necessary, and which we all regret. The purpose of the resolution is to ensure that there will be an investigation to establish the circumstances under which this grave loss of life occurred, primarily with a view to devising measures to prevent a recurrence of such fatalities in future.

Will the Minister explain what exactly is meant by the words here in the motion:—

"and to make recommendations, if any, in relation thereto"?

Perhaps the Deputy did not hear the amended form of the motion which is as follows:—

"That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for inquiring into the following definite matters of urgent public importance, that is to say:—

the cause of the fire which occurred during the night of Tuesday, 23rd February, 1943, at St. Joseph's Orphanage, Main Street, Cavan, and the circumstances in which loss of life was occasioned by the said fire, ..."

and now Deputies might note the remaining lines:—

"... and to make such recommendations in relation thereto as the tribunal may think proper."

Accepting these words, it seems that the remarks made by the Minister with reference to recommendations would indicate that the tribunal would restrict itself to recommendations designed to prevent such occurrences happening in the future, but as the motion here reads, it would seem to refer to recommendations in regard to a fire that has actually taken place. I thought that the Minister might mean that a reference would be made to matters of compensation or other questions of that kind. I should like to be clear as to what exactly the tribunal will be asked to cover in this matter of recommendations.

Could the Minister give us some information as to the personnel he has in mind for the tribunal? I think it is important, for instance, that the tribunal should be presided over by a High Court judge, or, at least, a barrister of long standing, and I think it would be desirable, also, that there should be some people with technical knowledge and experience of fire-prevention and fire-fighting members of the tribunal. I think it would be well if the Minister would give the Houses some information as to the types of persons he has in mind.

The usual formula in connection with the setting up of a tribunal of this kind is that power should be given to it to send for papers, documents, and so on.

That is covered by the Act.

As Deputy Norton has pointed out, some of our people are very keen that a High Court judge or a lawyer of long standing should be chairman and that the members of the tribunal should be people with technical knowledge and experience of these matters. I think that it would be a good thing to have as a member of the tribunal a married woman with experience of this kind, if it is possible to find one. Would the Minister consider these suggestions?

I should like to point out that we did not get the normal notice that this question was being taken to-day. I think that the first notice any Deputy got of this matter was seeing it on to-day's Order Paper, and, normally, such a motion would not be taken to-day, in the absence of previous notice.

I have no objection to leaving it over but, as it is a matter of urgent public importance, I think that the sooner it is dealt with the better.

We have no objection. So long as we are satisfied as to the manner in which the Minister is proceeding, we are desirous to facilitate him in every possible way.

With regard to the question of compensation, I do not see how I can make a specific reference to it, because I do not know where compensation may lie. There may be questions of responsibility, involving, say, the local authority, the orphanage, and so on, and, naturally, I do not want to prejudice matters which will be investigated by the tribunal. For that reason, the terms of reference have been drawn fairly widely.

It seems to me that the Minister's terms rather restrict them.

My main point in setting up this tribunal is not to find scapegoats or to attach blame, but rather to ascertain what were the real causes of this fatality, with a view to devising measures to prevent a recurrence of such things. The tribunal will be more concerned to ensure that, so far as human foresight and regulations can encompass it, this sort of thing will not happen again. We all know that there are numerous institutions in the country, not of this particular type only, where you have a large number of inmates of one sort or another, and, in view of this great disaster, we want to have an examination made in relation to all such institutions, and also, I should say, in relation to the facilities for dealing with fires which exist in our smaller towns, with a view to making them, so far as we can, adequate to overcome any dangers that may exist. Therefore, as I say, I have advisedly left the terms of reference as wide as possible; but no aspect of the matter will be overlooked.

The next point that was raised was about the constitution of the tribunal. It is my intention to have as chairman a lawyer of long standing. He may be a judge, or a practising member of the Bar. That will depend upon the circumstances of the time. The courts may be fully occupied, and the judges may be going out on circuit, which may mean that we shall have to fall back on a practising barrister, but whoever the chairman will be, he will be a person of standing. It is also my intention to have as a member of the tribunal a person with experience of fire fighting and fire prevention, and the third member of the tribunal, I think, will be a lady—perhaps an inspector of industrial schools. That is the type of tribunal I have in mind —I am not yet pinned down to any particular person, but that is the sort of tribunal I want to get.

It is quite true that I have not given the usual notice to the House with regard to this motion, but this is the first opportunity we have had to ask the House to adopt the necessary resolution. I think that the Seanad will be meeting next week and we hope to get the corresponding necessary resolution adopted there. If this inquiry is to be effective, we should have as little delay as possible in setting up this tribunal. That is the reason for the short notice.

Is it intended to limit the tribunal to three persons?

I do not think it would be necessary to have any more. The tribunal of inquiry into the Pearse Street fire, which was a very difficult matter, consisted of only three persons.

Is it the intention to have this matter arranged by next week?

Question put and agreed to.
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