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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Mar 1943

Vol. 89 No. 7

Seeds and Fertilisers Supply Bill, 1943—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill is merely to extend for another year the Seeds and Fertilisers Act of 1942. In addition to that, it validates the action which has already been taken by county councils to provide seeds and fertilisers in time for the winter wheat sowing season. Last September the county councils were advised to consider the provision of these facilities for small cultivators. As in previous years, all counties have adopted the scheme.

Mr. Brennan

This scheme is a reasonable one. Generally speaking, I think it is working satisfactorily. The only criticism that I have heard of it is that somehow enough people do not seem to be acquainted with it. That is not our fault, nor do I think it is the fault of the county councils. In the main, provision is made for any people who want to get seeds and manures in so far as they are available.

There was not any manure available for the winter wheat sowing season.

As the Deputy is aware, this scheme is not concerned with fertilisers only. It also deals with seeds to the extent to which they may be available.

Was not the object of this scheme to enable the farmer to purchase his seeds through a local retail distributor, the county council paying the latter and the purchaser of the seeds paying back the county council according to the terms agreed upon?

Do Deputies know what is happening in connection with this scheme? Having solemnly provided facilities of this character for the ready distribution of seed wheat, the Minister for Agriculture has intervened. He has fixed a maximum retail price for seed wheat, a very proper thing to do, but when the retail distributor who sought to have supplies ready to meet applicants under this scheme went to the wholesale distributor to get supplies of seed for retail distribution, he was informed by the wholesale distributor that the Minister for Agriculture had fixed no maximum price for him and, therefore, the wholesale distributor said——

I would like to point out, through the Chair, to the Deputy that the Minister for Agriculture does not operate under this scheme at all.

The Chair is waiting until the Deputy concludes his sentence to judge whether he is relevant or not.

Do Deputies not see what is happening? One Minister provides facilities for the distribution of seed while his colleague is making it utterly impossible for the seed to be distributed.

The Minister for Agriculture has no responsibility under this Bill, and the Minister for Local Government is not responsible for the administration of the Department of Agriculture.

Surely Dáil Eireann is not going to provide money for the purchase of seed that is not there? That is like Alice in Wonderland.

The Deputy is in order in so stating, but it would be irrelevant to discuss the administration of the Minister for Agriculture.

I do not want to go into the administration of the Minister for Agriculture. The reason why there is no seed is, that when the retail distributor goes to the wholesale distributor he is informed by the latter that he will not sell seed wheat to him one penny less than the retailer is constrained by law to sell the seed to the farmer. The result of that is that the retailer is required to pay, free on rail to Dublin, the same price for seed wheat that he is permitted by law to sell it at in Tuam or elsewhere. The rehandlers from whom the retailer buys the seed wheat are charging the same price per barrel for seed wheat, free on rail to Dublin, Wexford or Waterford, as the retail distributor, who is supposed to distribute the seed under this scheme, is permitted by law to charge in Cahirciveen, Dunmanway, Ballaghaderreen or Castleblayney. That is the position of shopkeepers and of retail distributors who are anxious to co-operate with those whom the scheme is designed to assist —the small men who cannot afford to send a large order for seed wheat direct to a rehandler. This scheme has been designed to assist the small farmer. The big farmer can deal directly with the rehandler because he can send him an order that is worth rehandling, but the small farmer who buys perhaps a cwt. or a couple of barrels of seed wheat must deal with the small distributor, and it is to help him that this scheme was evolved. In the places to which the persons who should benefit under this scheme go to get their seed, there is no seed.

Would the Deputy suggest that we should withdraw this Bill in view of that fact?

Not at all. What I suggest is that you should call in the Minister for Co-ordination of Defensive Measures and get him to coordinate yourselves.

The Deputy must not introduce any more Ministers; only one Minister is responsible for this measure.

What would you suggest, Sir, that a Deputy should do when he sees solemnly performed in this House the farce of a scheme being provided to enable the small farmer to purchase seed wheat on convenient terms, when he knows that in the place to which the small farmer applies to get the seed there is no seed, and when he knows that the reason that there is no seed there for the small farmer to buy is because a colleague of the Minister will not permit of the seed being sent there?

The Deputy should raise that matter on the Estimate of the Minister for Agriculture.

Would I not be well employed raising the matter of seed wheat on an Estimate taken for consideration in the month of May? It was not for nothing the Minister was born in Belfast and reared in Dublin.

The Deputy obviously has not read the Bill.

Of course, I have read it. All I am asking is that Deputies in this House insist that, if we here in Dáil Eireann provide facilities for the small farmer to purchase seed wheat, the wheat will not be withheld from those farmers by another Minister of the same Government as that to which the Minister for Local Government belongs. Is there any Deputy in this House who is aware of those things?

Mr. Brennan

I am not aware of them.

Are they not true?

Mr. Brennan

I cannot say.

Well, they are.

Surely this is a question of administration and does not arise on this Bill?

I do not expect the Minister to know very much about his own Bill when it deals with seed wheat. I am trying to teach him. Does he seriously come into this House and say: "I sponsor a scheme for the distribution of seed, and I do not give a damn whether it works or not"? I am trying to tell him that the scheme he is sponsoring in this House is not working, will not work and cannot work, because the distributors who are supposed to distribute the seed under the scheme cannot get the seed to distribute.

The Deputy has repeated that statement three times.

I have not forced it home on the Minister yet.

They must be licensed first.

They are licensed.

If they are licensed, I think there is no difficulty about it.

They can get seed wheat at 3/3 per stone f.o.r. Dublin, but the law requires them to sell it at 3/3 per stone ex-shop Ballaghaderreen. Somebody has to pay the carriage between Dublin and Ballaghaderreen. Somebody has to pay the carriage from the station to the shop. Somebody has to pay for opening the bag, shovelling out the wheat, and weighing it out to the farmer. How can anybody meet those charges if he is constrained to pay 3/3 per stone f.o.r. Dublin and sell at 3/3 per stone ex-shop Ballaghaderreen? Of course, what happened is that the distributors who should have operated this scheme threw their hands in the air and stopped distributing the seed. Surely it is reducing the proceedings of this House to a farce if we are going solemnly to sit here and compliment each other on this beautiful scheme. The Opposition says it is a lovely scheme, and the Minister is to be congratulated upon it. The Minister says he is very happy to be of assistance to the agricultural community, and we all shake hands around the House, while those of us who live in the country know damn well that the scheme cannot operate.

It was never worth anything to the country.

Now, we are beginning to get the truth. Five minutes ago we were all shaking hands and saying that the Minister in bringing in this scheme had done a splendid day's work. Gradually we are beginning to hear it is a complete "cod," and has never worked. Deputy Hughes has now told us that it is no damn good and never worked.

I have said it every year.

Then why are we all shaking hands?

I did not shake any hands.

The Minister was blushing, the encomiums were falling so heavily upon his head. He was quite proud of his gesture to assist agriculture in this country. But slowly I have forced it home on the House that the scheme is a complete "cod."

Like the Deputy.

Does Deputy Allen know anybody who takes advantage of it?

Mr. Brennan

I know hundreds of them.

Who have got the seed?

Mr. Brennan

Yes.

This year?

Mr. Brennan

Yes.

Mr. Brennan

In Roscommon. I will tell the Deputy about it in a minute, with the Chair's permission.

I now assert, and I challenge contradiction upon it, that the price of seed wheat f.o.r. Dublin is the same as the price of seed wheat distributed in stone blocks in the town of Roscommon.

Mr. Brennan

But how many people want to get it from Dublin?

What centre can they get it from? What rehandlers are there in Roscommon?

Mr. Brennan

There are plenty of them.

And cleaners?

Mr. Brennan

Yes.

I know of no cleaners in Roscommon.

That matter could be settled in Roscommon.

In many places in the country to which small farmers go for supplies of seed, those facilities are not available. Where you have seed-cleaning machinery, this difficulty can be overcome, but in the areas where there are no seed rehandlers and assemblers with seed-cleaning machinery——

The machinery is not very much anyway.

——either of two things is happening. Either uncleaned seed is being sold as clean seed, to the great detriment of those who are buying it, or the persons who are distributing it are distributing it at no profit at all. I do not know how they could do that, and I do not believe they are doing it. There may be certain cases where unscrupulous merchants are simply buying whatever wheat they can get locally and, without taking any precautions, are selling it as seed wheat at 3/3 a stone. If they are, then this scheme is not only a fraud but a menace, because men are sowing seed which ought not to be sown at all. But where the seed is properly cleaned, where it is assembled and tested before it is sent out, I say it is physically impossible for small distributors in 90 per cent. of the towns in this country to distribute seed at all. It seems to me utterly indefensible and shameful, in face of that acknowledged fact, which the Minister for Agriculture admitted himself in this House only a fortnight ago, that nobody in this House seems to give a damn, nobody seems a bit surprised, nobody seems a bit shocked, nobody seems to see anything wrong in this state of affairs. I think it is monstrous that we should be paying Ministers to do a certain job when those Ministers throw their hands in the air and will not do it. Surely some other Deputies know the facts surrounding the sale of seed wheat in rural Ireland as well as I do. Let them stand up and deny if they dare the facts which I have mentioned. They cannot do so. If the facts are as I allege them to be, surely it is a shame that Dáil Eireann should be renewing a scheme of this kind and at the same time washing its hands of all responsibility for the job of ensuring that adequate supplies of proper seed wheat will be available to the poor people who take advantage of this scheme and go to their local merchants to try to get seed.

Mr. Brennan

With your permission, Sir, I should, like to intervene at this stage.

A brief intervention?

Mr. Brennan

Very brief. Deputy Dillon has given us a great outburst of eloquence on this matter, and, as I come from the same county as the Deputy, I should like to put him on the right track. It is possible that what Deputy Dillon states is quite correct as regards Ballaghaderreen. It is possibly a non-wheat growing or non-cereal growing area, and they may have to get their seed from outside. But I should like the Deputy to ask the Roscommon County Council in how many cases applications for seed wheat have not been granted. Have any complaints been made to him? There have not. In the area in Roscommon which I come from there is any amount of wheat growers and assemblers, and there is excellent cleaning machinery. The farmers of Roscommon are not such duffers as to sow weeds or any other kind of rubbish they are given. They have been growing very good wheat. As far as the Act is concerned, it is a rather small gesture towards the small grower. Those are the facts. If encomiums are earned by the Minister or anybody else, let him have them. The Act provides facilities for very small farmers in each county, and it was said here last year by the Chairman of the Cork County Council that, for the small farmers in Cork, it was the best Act ever passed.

It is not an agricultural measure at all. It is a relief measure, and Deputy Dillon should know that.

Mr. Brennan

What Deputy Dillon has said as regards the price of seed from the assemblers is quite true. They will charge that price in Dublin, but I do not know anybody in Roscommon getting seed from Dublin or any other part outside the county.

I do not want to defend the Department of Agriculture's scheme for the provision of seed wheat, but I think the Deputy is rather mixed in this matter when he talks about a wholesaler and a retailer. The Act does not recognise any wholesaler. It envisages a situation whereby a number of assemblers are licensed to assemble seed wheat all over the country. They were licensed prior to last harvest. A man who got that assemblers' licence obviously would make provision for sample wheat at that time. He could buy wheat at a premium over 60/- and he still had a margin of 15/-, in my opinion an ample allowance.

I am not saying that is the ideal way but it is the method which the Department has adopted. The two or three merchants in Ballaghaderreen who were licensed to assemble wheat were licensed prior to last harvest and they were in a position to take any suitable wheat that was offered. They were also permitted to offer 2/- or 3/- over and above the fixed price. As far as the seed apparatus is concerned, that apparatus is a very crude affair in a great many districts. It is merely an ordinary winnowing machine.

Mr. Brennan

It is quite good.

It may be quite good but it should be possible, even in a remote district like Ballaghaderreen, to assemble wheat at 65/- if a man were buying at the right time. I agree with Deputy Dillon that this scheme, so far as providing credit for the agriculturists to meet any expanding system of food production is concerned, does not meet the problem. On that ground, I have already criticised it. It was merely eye-wash; it was merely an excuse on the part of the Government. It did help a number of small people to the extent of £10 or £15 each but that was the outside figure. It did provide credit for people who were unable to get facilities from merchants. In my constituency there is no great problem of that kind because the local merchants, who are licensed to assemble and to sell the seed and manures that are available, are prepared to give credit where a man is creditworthy at all. The disadvantage of that is that the purchaser is unfortunately tied to the man who gives him credit and has to sell back to him again in the harvest. He has not a free market. That does not matter so much under a system of guaranteed prices. The objection in that case is to a great extent eliminated. I agree with Deputy Dillon that so far as making any credit provision for the production of more food is concerned, the Act is no great help. A man who has not very much capital but who has a fair amount of land with very little equipment, is involved in a considerable outlay in the production of food before he gets any return. No facilities whatever have been made or no provision is being made to cover cases of that kind. That is the reason I have condemned this scheme in former years, that it has not attempted to provide that type of man with credit facilities during an emergency of this sort when there should be ample credit facilities provided. I agree that it does in a small way make some attempt to provide facilities for the type of man who cannot get credit from anyone but he is a very doubtful type. The local authority provides him with the necessary facilities.

I have listened to Deputy Dillon's complaints as to his difficulties in getting seed wheat from the seed assembler and I do not wonder that he has experienced some trouble, because I am sure wheat does give Deputy Dillon a wide berth on all occasions. I do not wonder at the seed assembler's reluctance to give him facilities to sell as a retailer. I do know, however, that one of the largest assemblers in Ireland happens to reside in Wexford, and I am sure if Deputy Dillon will communicate with him he will get the necessary facilities. I refer to the Shelburne Cooperative Society. This talk about the price being fixed, and no provision being made for the wholesaler and retailer, is all hot air and nonsense. As Deputy Hughes has pointed out, there is a margin which enables the seed assemblers to sell to any retailer who makes application to them, if they wish.

If they wish.

They will be very glad to wish because they will find, as Deputy Brennan has pointed out, that there are very many small seed assemblers who are prepared to take the trade.

There are very few licensed as assemblers.

Deputy Dillon will find that they will sell at less than 65/-. Inside the next fortnight he will find that.

They will sell now, but who is going to buy Wilhelmina wheat now?

Most good farmers have bought in their seed wheat. Every farmer who is making preparation to sow spring seed wheat has it in sight for some considerable time past, from a merchant or otherwise.

I agree.

I have seen a number of them in the last fortnight providing themselves with seed wheat from some of the large seed assemblers. On the whole, I think this Act has done a lot of good. It is not an emergency measure. Deputy Hughes is aware that this Act was in operation for a number of years before the emergency. The Act which this Bill proposes to continue was of very great service to a number of people. The amount which may be advanced to any one grower is a matter for the local authority. Deputy Hughes's local authority was absolutely free to advance up to £60 or £100 to particular farmers if it wished to do so. The Act did not tie it up in any way, and I am aware that in certain counties, the county council advanced up to £100 to individuals. The amount to be advanced is a matter which is left to the discretion of the particular county council. To say that it did not give any facilities to any one is not in accordance with the facts because quite a number of people did take advantage of it. At the present time, however, when such a good price is ruling for corn, seed merchants do not require these guarantees. They are prepared to give credit to any one who is willing to sow corn. In fact, merchants throughout the country are tumbling over one another in their anxiety to give credit to growers of wheat and barley. There is not much advantage in such circumstances in this Act as the merchants are prepared to give credit without guarantees. The system operated under the Act is, however, a good sound system, and this Bill which proposes to continue the Act should have a ready passage as it is a Bill that will operate to the advantage of a large number of small growers throughout the country.

This Bill, as far as I know, mostly affects counties in which small farmers are in the majority. It is a valuable Bill and it would be a great pity if any hitch arose in operating it. If, as Deputy Dillon suggests, some hitch has arisen I think the Deputy has done a good service in bringing it to the notice of the Dáil. If there is any hitch in working the Act, it should be put right now.

My experience of farmers getting credit for growing crops is not quite as rosy as that of Deputy Allen. I know of an unfortunate woman who wanted to get credit for the spring crop. She could not get it from the seed merchant. She tried to get a small loan from the Agricultural Credit Corporation, and was turned down without any reason being given. Everybody is not in the happy condition that Deputy Allen speaks of. I regard this as a boon for small farmers in certain counties, as they can get credit through the county council, and it would be a pity if any hitch occurred. I am afraid that some seed merchants are selling seeds of a very inferior quality.

That, surely, is a question for the Minister for Agriculture.

I am just calling attention to that. Perhaps the Minister for Agriculture will have to deal with it. There is a great loss by sowing inferior wheat seed in County Cavan. There is very little time to spare now, and these things should be examined by the Minister or by the Minister for Agriculture before it is too late. I have heard Deputy Allen say that every man has his seed in now. That is not our experience in County Cavan. Those who have to get it from the county council will be looking for the seed in April, and it would be a great mistake if they had to sow inferior seed then.

I cannot understand Deputy Dillon at all. I am sure there is no Deputy who appreciates more precisely than he does the exact nature of any proposal put before this House —that is, provided he has studied the proposal. The terms of the Principal Act, which this Bill proposes to extend, are familiar to every member of the House. This Bill never has been introduced as a measure to improve or develop agriculture or to assist agriculture. It has been brought in entirely as a measure to enable small landowners to grow grain for themselves, their families and their stock. In that sense, therefore, it is not an agricultural measure but a social measure. Accordingly, there is no use in Deputies rising here and telling the Minister for Local Government and Public Health what the merits or demerits of his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, may be. It cannot affect me. I am charged only with the administration of this particular measure, and naturally, like all wise administrators, I have to stick to my own Department, and see that it is run properly and as efficiently as possible.

At the same time, I would not like the House to lie under the impression that this Act was not effective in enabling small-holders throughout the country to get seed wheat last year, because that would be quite contrary to the facts. As a rule, people who avail of this measure want to grow oats and potatoes mainly. In these last two or three years—because of the difficulty in getting sufficient flour —they have gone in for wheat growing. The staple seeds upon which these moneys were expended were seed potatoes and seed oats. Let us look at the figures. In 1942, 683 tons of oat seed were purchased under this scheme.

Over the whole country?

That is not very exciting.

It is not very exciting. As Deputy Allen has pointed out, it has not been necessary in these last two seasons for people to avail of this scheme to anything like the extent to which they might have availed of it in less prosperous times from the farmers point of view, when merchants might be chary about granting credit to small farmers. In 1942, 683 tons of oat seed and 622 tons of seed potatoes were purchased. Of wheat seed—which Deputy Dillon has told the House it was impossible for these small farmers to obtain—582 tons were sold. That is a very close correspondence; people bought almost equal quantities of seed potatoes, oat seed and wheat seed. When we bear these figures in mind, the case which Deputy Dillon was making collapses completely.

I am not prepared to say that, here and there, there may not have been difficulty in getting wheat seed. I will take the Deputy's word that, in his particular area, there was such difficulty, but no representations have been made to my Department to that effect. Persons come along now and say that there is no use in prolonging this measure, giving the county councils authority to carry out these schemes this year because the seed which it was intended to assist these small-holders to purchase is not available. It has been pointed out to us that there has been a very much decreased demand for facilities. Of course, the price has been good and every person who grew wheat had the certainty of being able to sell it if he wished to do so, and merchants are finding it possible to extend credit very liberally, as Deputy Allen has said.

I would like to deal with the point made by Deputy McGovern, who said that this scheme has been found expensive. On the contrary, it was not: the gratifying feature of this seeds and fertilisers scheme has been that— though it has done a great deal of good, particularly in the poorer areas of this country—the cost has been comparatively small. I think that, in the year 1939, the total loss incurred by the county councils was about £97. In 1941 about £700 was outstanding on the date upon which the accounts were closed, but the farmers continued to pay.

Is that one county council?

No, over the whole country. This scheme has been a beneficial one, from the point of view of the people who avail of it. They have appreciated it and have met their commitments under it. It is quite true that, in County Carlow, for instance, it has not been extensively availed of at all—there were only 42 recipients there —because apparently the County Carlow people did not require the scheme. On the other hand, in Cork 490 persons received loans under the scheme, in Mayo 768, in Roscommon 565. For the other counties the figures ranged from 26 for North Tipperary— which I think was the lowest—right up to the peak figure in Mayo.

Would the Minister give the average amount of the loan?

I could not do so now, as I have not got the figures. The loans were small and large, and in some cases they were fairly considerable. All that, however, points to one thing, and that is that this is not, as Deputy Dillon and Deputy Hughes seem to believe, a scheme to assist agriculture: this is a social scheme designed to assist the small agriculturist—the subsistence farmer—to produce food for himself and for his stock.

In so far as this is designed to assist the subsistence farmer, surely the Minister would not be going outside the ambit of his authority if he were to make some inquiry as to whether these things would be available in the places where these farmers ordinarily go. Would it not be possible to ensure that these supplies will be available in the shops to which the beneficiaries of these schemes would be ordinarily expected to resort? That is all I want.

With regard to Deputy Dillon's point, I may say that I am very chary about putting my nose into other people's business. These schemes, in fact, are county council schemes. We give them the authority to proceed, but they draw up the schemes themselves, and I do not believe that any of the county managers who have been recently appointed, or any of the county councils that have been recently elected, are going to launch schemes in which they do not believe, or which they do not think would be of any practical value. I am perfectly certain that if, for instance, the Roscommon County Council, or any other county council in the country, adopt a scheme, they will ensure, in so far as they can, that the seed wheat will be available, and that, if it is not available, they will make representations to the proper quarter, and that is to the Minister for Agriculture.

I should like to know from the Minister whether or not it is a fact that some merchants got into trouble for supplying seeds other than those prescribed in the applicants' application forms? Is it necessary to have a rigid method of enforcing this scheme, which makes it impossible for a merchant to supply any seed other than the seeds specified in the application form? I think that there should be a certain amount of latitude.

That may have happened in one case, but if a merchant supplies seeds other than those specified in the application form, that is his look out.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

I should like to have the Bill this evening, if the House will agree.

Mr. Brennan

It is really only a question of dates.

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