I said last night, Sir, that I was prepared to support this Bill in so far as it proposed to complete the organisation of the creameries under the co-operative movement. It was probably never more necessary than now that all the creameries should be organised under one head. Post-war conditions, conceivably, might make it inevitable that there should be uniformity in the development and marketing of our dairy produce, if any, and, so far as we have had experience, the co-operative form of organisation best lends itself to that development in marketing. There may be other views, of course. Deputy Dillon, for instance, speaking yesterday, seemed rather to disagree with co-operation in dairying, and suggested two other courses: one, that the Government should withdraw from the business altogether and let competition wipe out the inefficient creameries, and the second, to establish a board, somewhat on the lines of the Electricity Supply Board, which would be given a monopoly. Now, as regards the first proposal, it was in operation for a good number of years and led up to the conditions which made it imperative on the late Mr. Hogan, then Minister for Agriculture, to see about the organisation of the creameries in the co-operative way. We have had years of experience of the running of co-operative creameries, and there has been no adverse criticism of that system. On the whole, it has been run very successfully. Deputy Dillon's second proposal, to create a monopoly, by which the business would be, conducted otherwise than through a co-operative society, would not be approved of by any farmer in this country, and I doubt if it would be approved of by any business people in the country. The people are rather afraid of monopolies. On the whole, I believe the co-operative scheme is the only one that presents any hope of success.
So far, most of us are in agreement with the Bill, but there is a fear amongst the people principally concerned that, although it purports to include all the creameries in the co-operative movement, it will not immediately achieve that purpose. The Minister, speaking yesterday, rather added to those fears, because when he was introducing the Bill he said that it might be asked whether the board was competent to run all this business, and on that point he would say there would be need for further legislation. He went on to say that it would be necessary to regularise the board's position. He said that in fact there were four bodies operating under the board, with the one staff. If it is not the intention to allow the Dairy Disposals Board to continue in operation when they have acquired the remainder of the proprietary creameries, why did the Minister speak in that way? If there is no intention of carrying on the Dairy Disposals Board indefinitely, then it is not easy to see the need for legislation regularising their position. Does the Minister intend to convey that they have been irregularly running their business for the last 15 or 16 years? We all know that they carried on their activities under great difficulties at the start, and that for a long time they traded at a loss. One does not blame them for that; in the circumstances I certainly do not.
We should like to be assured by the Minister, when he is replying, that there is a definite intention, immediately the creameries are acquired, to pass them on to be run by the farmers, and further, that there will be a time limit to the activities in general of the Dairy Disposals Board. That body was set up by the late Mr. Hogan for a definite object, to carry out his idea of complete co-operation in the creamery business. Nobody conceived that that operation would take 15 or 16 years. There may have been a reason why certain commercial activities, like the manufacture of condensed milk, and one or two items like that, might have been carried on by the board or by some other body if the farmers themselves were not ready to engage in those particular activities, but in regard to creameries which the board has held for the last 15 or 16 years, there does not appear to the ordinary person any reason why most of them could not have been handed over to the farmers. There may be reasons which have not been advanced in this House. One cannot gather from the meagre information that we have had whether or not some of those creameries were an economically sound proposition, but as far as my knowledge of creameries goes, I have no reason to assume that they were not. The experience of the co-operative running of creameries for a number of years past has been that nearly all of them have been run successfully and economically. One hesitates to assume that the Dairy Disposals Board were unlucky enough to get only creameries that could not be successfully worked.
During the debate, there has been a great deal of criticism of the general financial position of the Dairy Disposals Board. I do not want to criticise it in an undesirable way. I realise that eventually, when everything is cleared up, there will be a certain sum which the State will have to bear. I do not think any Deputy believed from the start of the operations of the board that there would not be such a sum. But one cannot conceive any reason why the accounts of the board have not been presented to the Dáil in the usual manner. Everybody who has any interest in the matter has found it exceedingly difficult to get any real idea as to what is the financial position of the concern. The Minister said that it controls four or five different bodies working under the same staff. Surely it would have been possible to segregate the operations of the different bodies? For instance, surely it would have been possible to present a profit and loss account in the case of the condensed milk concern, and in the case of each of the other concerns operated by the board. It is not inconceivable that a profit and loss account could have been presented for each individual creamery. In the early days, there may have been a reason why those accounts were not given. I believe there was. I think there was a hope at one time that a certain portion of the business of the Dairy Disposals Board, outside of the ordinary creamery work, would be passed to other hands. It was hoped at one time that commercial concerns might eventually purchase or control them. It is possible that the Minister did not want to publish all the financial intricacies of the board at that time. But for years past there has been no reason whatsoever why the House should not have been given a full account of the financial position of the board. For a number of years past, the House has been, to all intents and purposes, voting money for the Dairy Disposals Board in much the same manner as we vote money for the Secret Service Fund. We get practically the same amount of information as to the expenditure of the money. That is a position which should not be allowed to continue indefinitely, and I should like to see the whole matter cleared up. Those are the two points which have been raised generally in the debate, first, that there is no hope that the completion of the acquisition of the various creameries will be advanced by this Bill, and secondly, that the finances of the body which is to control them for the time being ought to be disclosed to the House. As I said, I do not see any reason why that information should not be given.
There are various excuses offered as to why the creameries held by the Dairy Disposals Board have not been passed on to the farmers during the last 14 or 15 years. One does not know what is the real cause. I would like to suggest that perhaps it is because the other body that is intimately connected with the dairying business, the I.A.O.S., has not fully co-operated. Has the I.A.O.S. been to blame in any way for the hesitancy to pass on the creameries to the farmers? These are points upon which the country would like to be assured before we pass this measure.
Most of the Deputies who spoke on this Bill are in favour of the proposal that the Minister says he has in mind, to finish the job started by the late Mr. Hogan. If we could be satisfied that that is the real intention underlying the Bill and that it is going to be put into operation speedily, then I do not think there will be any great objection raised. While the principle involved in the Bill is a simple one, the Bill itself, in some of its sections, has presented some rather terrifying features to Deputies not intimately concerned with the creamery industry. There are, for instance; clauses which give certain powers to the Dairy Disposals Board and there would appear to be no time limit to their activities. There is no assurance that, having acquired the creameries with Government aid and with money voted by this House, they will not hold on to those creameries for another 18 or 20 years, and perhaps indefinitely. I think there should be some assurance given to the House that that is not the intention. I would prefer to see in the Bill, in plain language, a time limit to the operations of the Dairy Disposals Board; there should be a time limit within which the creameries acquired, if not, as the Minister stated, altogether put out of operation because of redundancy, would be passed on to the farmers.
If the Dairy Disposals Board is going to carry on these concerns for as long a period as they have carried on the creameries since the amalgamation proposed by the late Mr. Hogan, then one sees no great difference in the existing position; they might be run for another 15 years in accordance with present arrangements, or they might be carried on under the Dairy Disposals Board—either way, I believe, would run them efficiently—but the House has a right to know what the position is. I hope the Minister will make the financial position of the Dairy Disposals Board perfectly clear. He might give us some indication of their liabilities; we do not require an exact return of their operations. The farming community welcome the publication of the financial position of any body carrying on, directly or indirectly, any form of agricultural activity. We have pleaded for that here on many an occasion. The more the public know about the financial position of organisations concerned with agricultural matters, the better. I believe the House has a right to this information.
I should like to hear from the Minister that it is the intention speedily to pass on the creameries acquired to the farmers, and perhaps he will consider the wisdom of inserting a clause in the Bill imposing a time limit within which the creameries will be handed over. Indeed, there ought to be a time limit put to the operations of the Dairy Disposals Board. I have never criticised that body unfairly. I am not criticising their operations now. They have carried out the difficult work allotted to them in a creditable manner, but I think the time has arrived when the board should be dissolved and their work carried on, in the main, by farmers. The portion of the work which farmers may not be prepared to undertake might be carried on by this particular board, reorganised in some fashion, or by some other body that the Minister might think it well to establish. I hope the day will soon arrive when the farmers will be prepared to carry on the rather technical work in which the Dairy Disposals Board engages. Perhaps the time is not ripe for that now.
I am as interested in the extension of the co-operative movement as any Deputy. I want to see that type of thing hastened and, in so far as this Bill purports to hasten it, I am willing to give it my support. I am rather hesitant to believe that there will be any immediate development in that respect, but I hope the Minister will make it clear that his intention is that it will be achieved as speedily as possible.
