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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Apr 1943

Vol. 89 No. 13

Army Pensions Bill, 1943—Committee (Resumed).

Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part of the Bill.

Will the Minister say what the intention of Section 8 is?

In the case of any gratuities paid extra-statutorily before the passing of this Act, power is being taken under the section to recover them, in the Minister's discretion.

It says "whether paid extra-statutorily or otherwise". What is meant by "or otherwise?"

Ex gratia.

Therefore, this section has nothing to do with gratuities that are paid under statute.

As I indicated earlier, I propose to oppose this section because I do not think this measure should be allowed to pass until the main question that has been under discussion here—the amount of "married pension" paid to officers and soldiers over the basic rate paid to a single officer or soldier—has been attended to. The Minister says that the phrase "or otherwise" may mean ex gratia. I take it that the words “extra— statutorily” would probably mean ex gratia, and that “or otherwise” may mean payments by statute. Because of that, I would like to put this point to the Minister. Under the 1927 Act, in the case of a soldier who died either of wounds or disease and who had six children, the widow would receive 17/6 for herself, 5/- for the first child and 3/6 for each subsequent child. In addition, she would be entitled to the repayment of an amount proved to have been, in fact, necessarily and properly expended in educational fees, but not exceeding £35 in any one calendar year where evidence of that was produced to the satisfaction of the Minister. Therefore, the widow of a man who had been killed or died as a result of disease during the emergency might, under the 1927 Act, if in receipt of a gratuity of 17/6 for herself, of 5/- for the first child and 17/6 a week if there were five other children, have a total of 40/- a week. In addition if three of the children were considered to be entitled to educational facilities, she might receive the equivalent of 40/6 a week for their education. That is to say, she might actually be in receipt of 80/6 a week. This Bill provides that if her husband were alive, but 100 per cent. disabled, and had the same wife and six children to look after he would only be in receipt of 52/- a week.

Obviously that has nothing to do with this section.

This section provides that any gratuity, whether paid extra-statutorily or otherwise, may, at the discretion of the Minister, be deducted. The sum that would have been paid under the 1927 Act in respect of a widow and six children would, as I have said, amount to 80/6. Under this Bill, if the man were alive but 100 per cent. disabled, and had a wife and six children, he would only receive 52/-.

Under Section 8 he gets 52/-. Is that the Deputy's point?

No. Section 8, as it stands, gives power to reduce. That is to say, the man is required to surrender perhaps some part of the 80/6. Section 8 says that "any gratuity (whether paid extra-statutorily or otherwise) paid before the passing of this Act" in respect of a person who died as a result of wounds or injury "may at the discretion of the Minister be recovered". In view of the obscurity of this word "otherwise", and of the type of provision made for the wife and children of a living injured man, I want to assure myself that this provision, in a Bill so queer as this, does not intend that, in the case of gratuities that have been awarded under Schedule 7 (Part II) of the 1927 Act, the person who has got the gratuities will be in danger of having to make a refund by reason of the passing of this Bill.

That is a matter that is left entirely within the Minister's discretion, a Chinn Chomhairle, and I agree with you in your view that the Deputy was quite irrelevant in discussing other portions of the Bill under this section.

I am not clear as to what your ruling is in this particular matter, but I am clear that the words of the section here are:

"any gratuity (whether paid extra-statutorily or otherwise)."

I imagine that that might include a gratuity paid under Statute. This section leaves it entirely within the Minister's discretion to require the repayment of a gratuity made under Statute, and I think the Minister should assure the House, in view of the general queerness of this Bill, that it is not his intention, as a result of this Bill——

——of this section, if it is passed, to reduce grants that have been statutorily given in the type of case I mentioned.

The Deputy knows well that it does not do that.

The Minister has not convinced me.

Read the section.

I have read it.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 41; Níl, 20.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • McCann, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl.

  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Cole, John J.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hannigan, Joseph.
  • Hughes, James.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • O'Sullivan, John M.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and Kennedy; Níl, Deputies Giles and J. Ryan.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 9.
Question proposed: "That Section 9 stand part of the Bill."

This section provides against any person securing two allowances under this Bill. It provides against the widow or child getting an allowance under this Bill and also a pension under the scheme.

Does that include a pension granted to a woman in her own right as an Army pension?

It provides against the securing of two pensions by one person.

The position then appears to be that, under this section, if a woman under the Defence Forces (Pensions) Act, 1938, is in receipt of a small pension for personal military service——

That will not affect it at all. I said that it was under the pension scheme.

Does this contemplate a case where a woman may have a pension in her own right under some particular Pensions Act?

It does not affect it at all.

Will she be able to retain that pension while her husband is alive, even though 100 per cent. disabled, and also in receipt of a pension under the Act?

In her own right.

She would lose it by reason of becoming a widow.

The only thing this section does is to ensure that a woman will either get a pension under the Army pension scheme, arising out of the death of her husband, or, if he dies as a result of disease or injury, will get an allowance under this section.

Can the Minister say which is the more favourable?

I could not say. Naturally I suppose she would get whichever is the greater.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 39; Níl, 16.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl.

  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Cole, John J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • O'Sullivan, John M.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and Kennedy; Níl: Deputies J. Ryan and Giles. Question declared carried.
Question proposed: "That Section 10 stand part of the Bill."
SECTION 10.

This section was designed for the purpose of expediting decisions in respect to the various applications. We do not want to refer non-medical cases to the board. We believe that cases which do not require that specialised type of decision can be dealt with by a non-medical section and that, as a result, the provision of pensions for the applicants will be greatly expedited.

I am against this section as I am against every other line of this Bill for the reason that, in addition to the simple basic allowance for the completely disabled man who is a single man, it only allows a 10/- married pension for a wife and family.

The Deputy surely knows that that is not relevant to this section.

It is the only reason that I am opposed to this.

That argument is not relevant.

I feel obliged to oppose every line of this Bill on the ground that I have stated.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 39; Níl, 14.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl.

  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Cole, John J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and Ken nedy; Níl: Deputies J. Ryan and Giles.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed: "That Section 11 stand part of the Bill."

What may I discuss on this section, Sir?

Not the merits of the Bill.

Then I could not discuss on this the fact that a sergeant-major in the Army with a wife and six children would, under this Bill, receive less than a private in the L.D.F. if both were injured on manoeuvres to-morrow?

Certainly not.

There is terrible contradiction anyhow.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 40; Níl, 16.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl.

  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Cole, John J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers:—Tá, Deputies Smith and Kennedy; Níl, Deputies Giles and Jeremiah Ryan.
Question declared carried.
Question:—"That the Title be the title of the Bill"—put.
The Committee divided:—Tá, 42; Níl, 16.

Tá.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Cornelius.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Rice, Brigid M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl.

  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Cole, John J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Question declared carried.

When is it proposed to take the Report Stage?

I should be glad if the House would give me the remaining stages this evening.

We are not prepared to give any facilities for passing this measure. We are very disappointed that the Government, after the discussion which took place on Second Reading and during the Committee Stage, did not think further over the matter and make some attempt to meet the points raised against one or two fundamental features of the Bill.

Report Stage ordered for to-morrow.
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