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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 8 Apr 1943

Vol. 89 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 32—Office of the Minister for Justice.

I move:

That a sum, not exceeding £30,922, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice.

I expect that, as in other years, the debate on this Estimate will cover all the Votes connected with my Department.

Votes 32 to 40.

Mr. Boland

And any particular item that arises on them.

A general debate.

Mr. Boland

Last year, arising out of criticism, I referred to the cost of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and I think I made it pretty clear that, although it appeared to cost more than in 1927, it was due to the fact that certain branches of the Department had been abolished as separate entities and incorporated in the Minister's Office, such as the Prisons Board. There was also a separate branch administering the affairs of the district courts. This is all done now by the Minister's Office. If these are all taken into consideration, the actual cost of the Office of the Minister for Justice will be found to be less than it was in that year. But, as it appears in the Estimate, of course it looks more. A comparison was made between the cost of the Gárda some years ago and the present cost. Actually, including the 71 I mentioned to-day as having been recruited, we have 49 Guards fewer than we had last year. But the cost has gone up, because every year there are increments for a number of men. I think Deputy O'Higgins last year took for comparison the year 1927. At that time the majority of the Guards were young men. They were almost on their commencing pay. They had got only a few increments. In addition, only a small proportion of them were married. Since then a large number of them have come up almost to their maximum and 4,000 more are married and are getting a rent allowance. Naturally that would cause a big increase.

There is also another very big new item to which I must refer, and that is the Local Security Force which is provided for in the Gárda Estimate. Undoubtedly, there is that increased cost, but these are the reasons for it. We have not got sufficient mean in the force. As I mentioned in reply to a question to-day, as a result of the recent examination we got only 71 recruits when we expected to get at least 100. Therefore, I am making a new Order, which is only to last for two months, whereby 120 of those who failed to qualify in that examination will be re-examined. By that means it is hoped to get up to 100 extra men. As I say, the force is really under-manned. Of course, all that cannot be done without extra cost, but it is up to me to explain the reason.

I am sorry to have to say that crime is still on the increase. Last year I referred to the stealing of bicycles and the larceny of goods in short supply. I am sorry to say that there has been a very big increase in these crimes in spite of the efforts of the Gárdaí and the help that the L.S.F. have given. Up to the year 1938, the average number of indictable crimes reported to the Gárda authorities each year was about 6,500. In 1938, the actual number was 6,769. The figures for subsequent years were:—1939, 8,202; 1940, 9,014; 1941, 13,180; 1942, 17,322.

Well over 100 per cent. increase.

Nearly 300 per cent.

Mr. Boland

Nearly three times as many. The increase is accounted for almost entirely by an increase in the number of burglaries, house-breakings and larcenies. Burglaries and house-breakings increased from 1,093 in 1938 to 2,510 in 1942, that is, more than double the number. Larcenies increased from 4,370 in 1938 to 12,865 in 1942. Nearly 60 per cent. of these crimes were committed in the Dublin Metropolitan area. As might be expected, the percentage of prosecutions has fallen with the increase in crime. During the ten years from 1929 to 1938 inclusive, prosecutions were instituted in respect of approximately 72 per cent. of the total number of indictable crimes reported to the Gárda Síochána. So far, prosecutions have been instituted in respect of only 54 per cent. of the crimes reported in 1942. That is unsatisfactory as compared with the years prior to the war, but it shows an improvement on the years 1939, 1940 and 1941, when the percentages were 49, 50 and 51 respectively. It compares very favourably also with the percentage of prosecutions shown in the criminal statistics for Great Britain before the outbreak of the present war.

I am sure Deputies will understand that it is practically impossible for the Gárdaí in cases of that kind of larceny to keep track of them. They do their best when they are reported. People do not commit these crimes when the Gárdaí are looking on. Most people know what the reasons are. People are short of commodities and I am afraid our morality is not as deep-seated as it ought to be. People who never had any record of crime unfortunately are being now drawn into the net. The explanation of that may be shortage of commodities and perhaps the loosening of moral standards which generally occurs during war time. But the fact remains that that type of person who was never known to the police is unfortunately becoming known to them now.

A type of larceny which has increased lately, particularly in Dublin, is the stealing of overcoats from restaurants and hotels. In the Dublin Metropolitan area, for instance, there were 507 cases of overcoats being stolen from restaurants and hotels. Of course, the police could not possibly prevent that. People controlling hotels will have to be very careful. I think they ought to adopt special measures for dealing with that, such as the ticket system, or something like that.

Last year the House was very interested in the position with regard to the larceny of bicycles. I should like to give the figures for the present year and for some of the preceding years. The number of bicycles reported to the Gárda Síochána as having been stolen in 1938 was 1,160; in 1939, 1,402; in 1940, 1,532; in 1941, 2,779; in 1942, 3,395. There has been a slight improvement in the Dublin Metropolitan area, where fewer have been stolen than last year. In 1941 in the Dublin Metropolitan area there were 2,140 bicycles stolen; last year there were 1,976 stolen. Of course, that is still an enormous number. I must pay tribute to the L.S.F. for the help they are giving in dealing with this matter. In addition to their other work, they are going around to parking places and inspecting the numbers on bicycles. In that way they are helping to recover a number of stolen bicycles. They are giving valuable help in that respect. They are also doing patrol work. As is known, they have also the powers of arrest. The same powers have been given to them as can be exercised by the Gárda up to the rank of sergeant.

But, in spite of all the help we are getting from the L.S.F., there has been a very big increase in crime, which is very disturbing indeed. It is not very pleasant for me to have to say that it has increased in my time. The only excuse I can make is that it is war time and that I was unfortunate enough to come into office at a time when these things were more likely to increase than otherwise.

Then in regard to political crime— last year I was able to say that, happily, no political murder had occurred during the year. I am sorry to have to remind the House that, since last year, three members of the Gárda were foully murdered. In one case a man was sentenced but in the other cases, so far, the culprits have got clear. The police had suspicions of certain people but they have been unable to lay their hands on them. In one case a man was tried and was acquitted, but the police had some suspicions of people whom they were not able to catch. There were also four attempted murders, one only quite recently. A man is lingering between life and death and I do not know if he is out of danger yet. A very young man is suspected of having shot him.

This is a very serious situation. One of the most alarming things that I see about it is that there is a very young, irresponsible body in the city of both boys and girls, and they are very, very dangerous. We have had to intern some of them. I do not know what their objects are at all. It is not the I.R.A. They have some new name for themselves. I suppose they do not think the others are extreme enough for them. We suspect one of these of having shot this last man. I am not happy about the position at all.

This organisation is not very numerous. There are very few in the country but they are very dangerous. Everyone knows that apparently they are prepared to stop at nothing. During the year the Gárda succeeded in seizing a large amount of arms. 101 machine-guns, mostly Thompson guns, were seized in County Mayo, as Deputies may remember. They were practically all new Thompsons that had never been used. Some of them were in cases with books of instructions, just as they left the factory. There were 34 rifles captured during the year, 101 revolvers and pistols, and over 5,000 rounds of ammunition as well as quantities of gelignite, blasting powder and large numbers of detonators and grenades. I have no idea how much ammunition they may have, but, apparently, if they want to murder anyone they are never short of a gun.

On the 31st March last, there were 99 members of the I.R.A. in custody, under sentence; 83 were serving sentences of penal servitude. On the same date there were 536 men and 18 women detained under the Emergency Powers (No. 30) Order, 1940, that is, interned.

I must say I am very sorry to be in the position of having to say what I have said. Last year I was hoping we would not have to deal with any murders, anyway, but, unfortunately, this year, my hopes were not realised. We had these three murders and four attempted murders. As far as that organisation is concerned, as I have said, it is not numerous, but it is dangerous to that extent. I am inclined to think that it is breaking up and that some of these things are being done by individuals. At least, I am hoping that is so and the police are of that opinion. Sometimes organisations of that kind become more dangerous when they start to smash up. I may be wrong there. I think everything that the police and the Government can do to grapple with it is being done. We have met with a fair amount of success in getting arms from them. We did capture some of the people engaged in the murders but there are others we did not get. I hope it may be possible yet to lay hands on them and, if it is, we will deal with them as they ought to be dealt with.

The Minister finds himself in the unfortunate position of having to tell a very pitiable story of the social conditions of the time in this country. I do not think any blame can be laid either to him or the officers of his Department in reference to the condition of affairs that exists. He has dealt with a number of matters to which I had intended to draw attention because they ought to exercise and very seriously concern the minds of the public in this country at the present time. We have been used in discussions on the Department of Justice Estimate for many years to deal almost exclusively with political crime. Those crimes, serious as they are even yet, form, I think, the minor part of the Minister's statement to the House. The really serious condition at present in the social life of this country is the appalling and alarming spread of ordinary crime among practically every section of the community and, as the Minister has pointed out—it is a matter that has struck everybody who has been watching the progress of affairs in this country for the last two or three years—the amazing thing is the number of people who are now charged with and convicted of crimes who have never before had a criminal record.

The picture that the Minister has presented of crime being increased practically threefold in a period of four years is one that ought not to be let pass without very serious consideration in this House. I think there is something wrong with the social condition of the country which leads to that state of affairs. The Minister gives as the only excuse or justification that he can find for the condition, the war. I think the war cannot be blamed, at least to any very great extent, for the condition we find in this country at the present time. I am afraid it is really due to a complete lack of respect for the law which is creeping into every section of the community. If that is so, then, I think, we are faced with a very serious position indeed.

Our Circuit Courts, the Central Criminal Court, and our District Courts are at the present time cluttered up with work. Every court, I think, dealing with criminal matters is largely in arrear. The Minister has referred to the greatly increased number of burglaries and larcenies, thefts of bicycles and of overcoats. He did not refer to the still more striking increase in the number of what I may call ordinary murders as distinct from political murders. I think there is nothing more startling in the social life of this country than the murder trials that have been held in Green Street from time to time in the last few years.

As I said, I do not blame the Minister or the officers of his Department or the Guards for the state of affairs that exists, but I think something will have to be done, not merely to punish the crimes that are committed, but to bring about some condition of public opinion whereby crimes can be prevented rather than punished. The ordinary courts of the country, as I have said, are cluttered up with work. Juries are overworked. They are sitting practically continuously. If all the work were to be reached, there would have to be sitting in Dublin, and probably in most centres throughout the country, a criminal court of some kind or another, dealing with big or small crimes, every day throughout the entire year. I do think that is a state of affairs which calls for the most serious consideration of all sections of this House and all sections of the community who desire to see this country in a state of ordered progress. I do not think that the war can be solely blamed for the condition of affairs that exists at the moment.

We have the condition that a large number of our people have gone to England. In a state of actual warfare in England, the great majority of these people, so far as we know, are able not merely to obtain work but to work hard and to live in a state of complete honesty. It is an extraordinary contrast, therefore, that so many of our young people can go abroad and live, in an atmosphere of practically total war, honest, decent, hard-working lives while here at home in a Catholic country, a country with every facility for keeping on the right path, we have the condition of affairs which everybody knows to exist and which the Minister has described in his speech to-day. For some months past I have pondered on this problem from my own point of view, endeavouring to find out what was the cause or whither we were going. I have wondered whether we have not by our Acts in this House created far too many offences. Even a lawyer earning his living by his profession is unable at present to keep up with the vast number of offences that have been created in recent years by statute, by regulation, by order and by rule. I think I said last year, in the course of some debate here, that it was practically impossible for even the most law-abiding citizen at present to go through an ordinary day doing his daily work in a decent way without committing an offence of some kind, probably unknowingly. We are surrounded by a body of rules, regulations, orders, and statutes, creating all sorts of petty offences. I do think that the multiplication of offences that has been created by the legislative machine is, to some degree at least, responsible for the rather strange outlook on the legal position, and is to some extent responsible for the disrespect in which the law is held in this country. It may be that economic conditions at home drive young men, when they are not able to get work, to endeavour to pick up easy money by way of bicycle stealing, coat stealing or any form of petty theft, but large numbers of hitherto decent, respectable citizens have, for whatever reason, found themselves in the dock in Green Street and in the Circuit Courts throughout the country for the first time in their lives.

I cannot think that it is merely the atmosphere of the war, which has touched us so very little in this country, that is responsible for that outbreak of crime. I base that view on the contrast I find between workers in this country and people working and living in an atmosphere of total war in another country who are apparently able to live their lives honestly without resorting to any forms of petty theft.

Apparently the same stock can go to a foreign country and live honest, decent lives under war conditions, but here living under totally different conditions a very large number of our young people are not able to live honest, decent lives. It may be that one of the reasons I have given is responsible—that atmosphere of disrespect for the law. It may be that economic conditions here are such that young people are not able to get employment at home of such a type as will enable them to keep themselves in decency or honesty. It may be that some of the people who are responsible for the growth in our criminal calendar do not want work.

I have said repeatedly that, so far as my experience goes as a politician and in social work, the vast majority of the people of this country are anxious for work. I have come across very few people who shirk work. The real tragedy lies in the inability of people to get work. I think there is a very serious problem facing us here in the conditions that have been described by the Minister. I do not profess to be in a position from the point of view of social science to put any sort of finger upon a definite cause for it, but this is a problem that has been operating in my mind for months past, irrespective of this Vote, and I do think that the war is not responsible for it, that there must be some more deep-seated reason for this disease of bicycle-stealing, coat-stealing and all the other forms of petty theft, burglary and larceny which have manifested themselves in recent years and which are, in my view, a symptom of a very serious disease in the body politic.

I think that the Minister, the Gárda and all of us should bend our minds to the prevention rather than the conviction of crime. The conviction of crime, I do appreciate, is a necessary element in the preservation of the social structure but, so, far as I am concerned, I would prefer to prevent the commission of one crime rather than secure the conviction of a dozen crimes. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us from the statistics which he has in his Department how the record of what might be called petty crime compares with that of more serious crime—that sort of crime which is dealt with by the district justices by way of summary jurisdiction. How has that increased and how does the increase compare with greater crime? I have a belief, which I may say is not founded on any accurate statistics, that the Guards are more concerned in the discharge of their duty with the capture of petty criminals rather than the prevention of big crimes.

It is for that reason I should like the Minister to consider what statistics he has as regards the increase in what are called petty crimes, dealt with summarily by the district justices. How many of these have been recorded in this Department? How many prosecutions have been brought and in how many have convictions been obtained? How does the increase in that crime, tried summarily, compare with the extraordinary and amazing increase in the more serious form of crime? It may be that the Minister will be able to set my fears at rest but I do say that I have a firm conviction that more energy is being expended in bringing children to so-called justice for robbing orchards or in prosecuting men for not having lamps on their bicycles at night than in the prevention of crime, as distinct from the conviction of people who commit crime. I certainly want to be reassured on that point, and I should be glad if the Minister were able to give sufficient information to show that the belief I have is not well founded. I think it would be far preferable to let a certain amount of that sort of petty crime pass by, to wink at it if you like, in certain circumstances. We have so many offences of one kind or another on the Statute Book at the moment, that it is impossible to ensure that the law is observed in its entirety. I do, therefore, suggest that, so far as possible, the Minister should take steps to secure that public opinion be fully informed of the gravity of the present situation. I do not think that the public really realise the serious condition which exists from the point of view of ordinary crime. If the public are fully informed in that regard, it may be that a better public opinion will back the Minister in his efforts to prevent and punish crime. My inclination has always been not to secure merely the conviction of criminals—I recognise the necessity for that, of course, not merely from the point of view of punishment but from the point of view of its deterring effect—but to prevent crime if such can be done. My view has always been that the really primary object of the criminal law is not to punish, and not so much to deter from as to prevent crime. I do not regard it as any great credit to the Gárda to be able to say: "We have secured"—a word I detest—"convictions in so many cases." I am sufficiently imbued with the conservative traditions of my own profession to dislike the attitude of prosecutors which is fashioned on that of a certain advocate—to use a joke current in my own profession—who used to go out after prosecuting in criminal cases and say: "We won all those cases." My view is that a prosecutor for the State should act perfectly fairly and impartially, put all the facts before the judge and jury and let the judge and jury discharge their respective responsibilities. I do think that I see in the conduct of prosecutions in this State rather a tendency to "win" cases. I see, or think I see, in the conduct of prosecutions by the Gárda, a tendency to secure—to use a word I dislike—convictions rather than to prevent crime.

My appeal to the Minister is that he, the officials under him and the Gárda, for whom he is responsible, should bend their energies not to securing convictions for petty forms of crime, not to securing convictions against young children for robbing orchards or against adults for not having lamps on their bicycles, but to preventing the commission of crime. Without the co-operation of the public, the efforts of the Minister and the Gárda will be futile. To secure the co-operation of the public, it is necessary to create, since it does not exist at present, a healthy public opinion. The public will have to co-operate in connection with the protection of their own property. They will have to co-operate in connection with the prevention of crime. One of the reasons for the situation which exists at present is the extraordinary number of ridiculous offences we have created by statute and regulation. This has tended to bring about a disrespect for the law. It is not right to pass by this serious problem, simply saying: "There is the problem; it is probably a result of the war; we cannot do anything about it until the war is over." I say that the condition that exists at present is not— certainly not to the extent of the greater part—due to war conditions. It is due to some more deep-seated cause in our own people—lack of moral sense, lack of education or economic conditions. It is due to some extent to the failure of young boys, who have left school, to obtain work. It is due to the cost of living, to the low wages paid for work when it can be obtained, to the tendency to depress wages at a time when prices are soaring, coupled, perhaps, with the notion that there is a lot of money knocking around somewhere. These factors tend to create a state of unrest amongst young people and a desire for easy money. The problem is deep-seated and is social in character. It will have to be tackled unless serious injury is to be done to our country. I do not think it can be dealt with merely by saying that the war is responsible for it. I am not criticising the Minister for that statement. Many people have that view, and it is against that attitude of mind I have spoken this evening. It is easy to say that the war is responsible for the alarming increase in crime amongst all sections and for the attitude of most sections of the community towards crime, but that is merely shirking the serious problem which confronts the Minister and the country.

The picture which the Minister has painted this evening is, indeed, a very sombre one so far as social and economic conditions in the country are concerned. The Minister must be truly alarmed by the statistics which he has given to the House and by the deductions which can be drawn from the statistics. I know, and the House knows, that the Minister for Justice is a Minister with a very high standard of civic rectitude and that he would not countenance any type of negligence which would allow such a condition of affairs to develop. So far as one can judge from contact with them, members of the Gárda Síochána are zealous and enthusiastic in the discharge of their duties. One cannot see that, in respect of their activities, there is any cause for complaint in this House. I think that these crimes—multiplied crimes, if one is to judge by the Minister's statistics—arise out of conditions which, if not actually attributable to the war, have, nevertheless, their roots in the war and in the emergency situation. In that respect, I do not entirely agree with Deputy Costello. I think that it is perfectly true to say that the general deterioration in economic conditions has produced a condition of affairs in which persons unable to get adequate wages to support themselves, their wives and children, succumb to the temptation of endeavouring to get, in the form of negotiable goods, a type of income which they could not get by following an honest occupation.

The whole economic position has seriously deteriorated in the past four years. Evidence of that is furnished by the substantial increase in the cost of living. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has been compelled to admit that the cost of living has increased by, approximately, 60 per cent. since 1939, and that wage rates have increased by less than 10 per cent. in 12 important industries dealing with transportable goods. If you have a situation of that kind, in which the £ will buy only 12/6 worth of goods, as compared with the position in 1939, you, inevitably, create social conditions in which masses of underpaid people are subject to the temptation to steal, and in which their economic life is such that they have to choose between being honest and hungry and being dishonest and, probably, being saved from the worst pangs of hunger. The Government's economic policy is contributing in a very substantial way to the creation of conditions of that kind. Money can be saved at too high a price. One can economise at too high a price.

I think the drift of the Government's whole economic policy is such that it is depressing the standard of living of large masses of the people, and that, in order to escape from the worst ravages of the Government's social and economic policy, as expressed in their outlook on wages, persons are resorting to theft, who, in ordinary circumstances and in normal times, would probably be able to maintain themselves and their families in tolerably decent conditions without resort to dishonest practices.

It is perfectly true, of course, that a new type of crime has arisen in recent years. The shortage of bicycles and the impossibility of buying them, except at very high prices, has provided a temptation to steal bicycles. I definitely believe that this is a wartime vice which will probably subside when bicycles again come on the market and when they are within the purchasing power of the mass of the people who require them; but we nevertheless have a very serious situation—one in which economic conditions are contributing to make criminals of persons who formerly were honest citizens and one in which the shortage of certain types of commodities is producing a dishonest outlook and a dishonest frame of mind on the part of hitherto honest citizens.

The Minister must be gravely concerned with the statistics he quoted to-day, but the most unfortunate part of the Minister's statement, as I see it, is that there does not appear to be any indication as to the steps to be taken to curb the present very dangerous tendency. I know that the Minister is as anxious as anybody in the House, or as every other high-minded citizen, and probably more anxious, to be able to report in a much more favourable way on social conditions in the country, but I listened in vain for any indication from him as to the steps he was taking to curb the present highly dangerous tendency. I hope that, before the Vote passes, the Minister will give us some idea as to the direction in which he proposes to travel.

Deputy Costello has referred to "ordinary" murders in this country. I do not think anybody in the House or outside it will deny that the public have been presented during the past 12 months with details of the most revolting murders with which it is possible for any country to discredit itself. We have read in the papers of the most dastardly murders carried out with a premeditation which simply gives rise at once to the question of whether we are civilised people at all. Cases were reported in the papers months ago, the details of which were positively gruesome. It is scarcely possible to believe that these crimes could be committed in a Christian country and in a country in which approximately 93 per cent. of the people profess the Catholic faith. I think it is a very alarming state of affairs and, unfortunately, from all appearances, we are not at the end of that state of affairs. There are in fact new vistas of murder opening up before us and I think the Minister and the whole House must be concerned with such a situation.

We saw in our own life-time the experiences of the last war, during which the moral tone fell so disastrously that murder was quite a common-place thing. Happily, in this country we have not yet been visited with open warfare, but there is no doubt that war produces a type of excitement and a lowering of the moral tone which inevitably lead to murders, to outrages, to theft, to larceny and to general disregard of and disrespect for the normal majesty of the law. The problem before the House, the Minister and the Gárda Síochána, is: what can we do to arrest that tendency? This, after all, is not a cannibalistic island; it is not a country in which the people profess no faith. This is—and let us always remember it—a country in which our people have an anchorage in tenets of faith, in which our people have a philosophy of faith and a philosophy of life.

I suggest to the Minister that some serious and concerted effort ought to be made, by the use of the Hierarchy, if necessary, by the use of all organisations in good standing throughout the country and by the use of the influence of local authorities and public men of goodwill, to appeal to the philosophy of our people, to their concepts of life and religion, in order to try to lift the nation out of the morass of crime into which I am afraid it is unfortunately falling, if one is to judge by the Minister's figures.

I believe it is necessary to initiate a campaign of appealing to every citizen to regard dishonesty, burglary, larceny and assaults on one's neighbours or one's neighbour's property as something as detestable as treachery to the nation. Our people will never desire, and no people desire, to be branded as traitors. What we are doing, judging by the criminal statistics read by the Minister, is raising a question as to our fitness to be regarded as a civilised community, and I think the Minister might well take the line of utilising all these agencies of good, all these agencies of public well-being, in order to endeavour to initiate throughout the country a campaign which will reverse the direction in which we are travelling and bring conditions of life in this country back to the relatively happy position in which they were before 1935.

I feel sure that in that direction the Minister will get an abundance of co-operation. The Estimate of the Department of Justice is not a political Estimate. Every good citizen and every member of the House is as anxious as the Minister to try to put down crime, and the Minister will get an abundance of co-operation and goodwill in any effort he makes in that direction. I for one do not want to blame the Minister because of the increasing crime and nothing is further from my thoughts than to blame the Gárda Síochána. I know that both the Minister and the Gárda are doing their best in very difficult circumstances—circumstances not of their creation, but which are crowding in on them and making it impossible for them to exercise efficiently that type of supervision, prevention and detection which is so necessary, if we are to maintain civilised conditions in this country. I hope the Minister will indicate that he is desirous of utilising the beneficial influences of the high personages and organisations to which I have referred and I hope he will be able to see his way to do that, and avail of the goodwill which is there for the asking.

I should like to refer to one matter which I think is of considerable importance from the standpoint of the rights of all the citizens. In the early days of this State, in the early days of its new-found liberty, it was apparently thought necessary, because of the effervescent condition in which we were then living, to deprive members of the Gárda Síochána of a vote at election times. I have never been able to understand why a Civic Guard was deprived of his vote. The only persons who are deprived of votes in present circumstances are imbeciles, inmates of workhouses and criminals in prisons. Every other citizen is entitled to vote, but the only persons who are lumped in with imbeciles, inmates of workhouses and criminals are members of the Gárda Síochána, probably the most law-abiding people in the country. Whatever case might have been made for depriving the Gárda of votes in 1923 and 1924 or even for continuing that restriction in the rather yeasty years which followed 1922, I do not think it is possible for a civilised community—particularly one in which the democratic way of life still obtains—to justify depriving the Gárda Síochána of the right to vote at elections. I think that in Great Britain or in the Six Counties the members of the police force are permitted to vote, and I do not know on what grounds, under our Constitution, the Government of this House can justify depriving a member of the Gárda Síochána of the right to vote.

We had a speech recently from the Tánaiste—the Minister for Finance— in which he said that any citizen who did not take a serious interest in politics was a worthless citizen or an imbecile; that, in fact, taking an interest in politics amounted to taking an interest in the science of life and the science of Government. He applauded every citizen who took an interest in politics, and he simply derided, and wrote down as low-class people, those who did not take an interest in politics. Now, there is probably no member of the Gárda Síochána who has not an interest in politics. Some of them may want to vote for this Government—although God knows why they should wish to do so—while others might want to vote for the Fine Gael Party or for the Labour Party.

Mr. Boland

I should rather say, God knows why they should do that.

On the other hand, I would say that that would show the high-water mark of their intelligence. In any case, I hold that they are entitled to vote. We allow them to vote at a local election, and yet we deprive them of the right to vote at a general election. I think that the law in that respect is out of tune with our Constitution, and I think that now, in the year 1943, 21 years after the establishment of the Irish Free State, the Minister ought to acknowledge frankly that members of the Gárda Síochána are law-abiding citizens, that they are intelligent people, that they can be trusted to go into a polling booth, mark a ballot paper, and take an interest in their country, and that, in fact, there is no reason to-day, or never was any reason, for depriving these men of a vote.

The Minister for Justice, I think, is a democrat, and I do not know how he can possibly justify depriving the Gárda Síochána of votes. Nobody wants to see the Gárdaí made a plaything of any political Party. I certainly do not want to see anything like that happening, but I certainly do not think that they should be bracketed with the other unfortunate people whom I have mentioned, and who are deprived of a vote to-day. I hope that the Minister will deal sympathetically with this matter, and that he will hold out some hope to the members of the Gárda Síochána that they will not be regarded as a kind of political "untouchables" when it comes to the matter of recording their votes at an election.

The Minister's statement fell into three compartments, so to speak. First, there was the comparison of the cost of his Department, on the various services which he administers, compared with the cost some years ago. Secondly, he dealt with the incidence of what has been described as ordinary crime, and of political crime, within the last few years. I think it would be well that an expression of sympathy should go out from this House to the relatives of the members of the Gárda Síochána who have lost their lives in the execution of their duty during the last twelve months, and, in fact, during a much longer time. If my recollection is correct, there was a good deal of criticism, some 11 years ago, regarding the cost of the Gárda Síochána, and the public were told that if a change of Government took place, very remarkable economies could be effected and that that institution could be run at a much smaller cost. Unfortunately, those very optimistic pronouncements of that time have not materialised. We were told at the same time that if there was a change of Government we would have quite an improvement in the political situation, and that political crime would cease, but unfortunately that has not taken place either.

I am inclined to disagree with my colleague, Deputy Costello, in so far as he seems to think that the incidence of crime is not due to the war. In so far as shortages have occurred—and they are the rule rather than the exception just now—to my mind, they are very considerably responsible for quite a number of the larcenies that have taken place. As a matter of fact, it has surprised me how honest people in country districts have shown themselves to be. For instance, where there are wooden gates, or where trees are available, and these people are short of timber—particularly considering the very high price that is charged for fuel at the present moment—I think it is a great tribute to the honesty of the people that things have not been worse.

From my experience also, I have to differ with my colleague, Deputy Costello, as regards the influence of the Gárdaí. As far as I can judge, their influence is directed almost as much towards the prevention of crime as towards its detection. Of course, Deputy Costello has more knowledge of these matters than I have, but that has been my experience. Now, there is, at any rate, in this House to-day a very different approach to the rule of law and to public order from what there was from 1927 down to 1932. There is no Party in this House now giving any countenance whatsoever to outrages, whether political or otherwise. That was not so from 1927 down to 1932, and I think we had better admit that these are national defects and that we should admit whatever faults we have committed ourselves, since the inception of this State, so far as the rule of law and of public order in this country is concerned. It is regrettable and lamentable that after two decades of freedom in this country there are people so misguided and so wrong in their outlook and approach to anything in the nature of national culture that we should have the name and fame of our people disgraced by the shooting of police officers or peace officers in this State.

Now, for many years past, we have been told that there is only one Party in this country standing for national culture. What is national culture? I should say that in this State, or any other State, the basis of national culture would be the good character of the people. In so far as the Minister's story to us here this evening is concerned, there is a marked deterioration in our national culture, so far as our national virtues are concerned, such as honesty and truth. In some of the bishops' pastorals, particular and special attention was paid to those two matters. I think we are very much indebted to their Lordships for dealing with that matter.

It comes far better from them than from politicians. Quite an amount of the time of politicians is devoted towards minimising the virtues of their opponents, assuming that they have any. Their Lordships do not do that. They confine themselves to the denunciation of sin. Unfortunately, we are not rivals of theirs in that connection. A period of war in the world usually promotes, certainly stimulates, disorder. The Minister, I am quite sure, has read or heard of Saint Augustine's definition of States. He said that all States are founded on wrong-doing—of course, it is a very long time ago since St. Augustine made that statement—and he urged in support of that statement the retort of the pirate to Alexander the Great, when he said: "I, who rob with only a small ship, am called a pirate, while you, who rob with a great fleet, are called an Emperor." One of the things that give rise to a loosening of morals at a time when there is a scarcity of various commodities amongst the people is the contemplation of the huge profits being made by others. That is what we call black-marketing. We have miserably failed to solve that problem in this country. There is scarcely a person one meets who cannot tell of transactions in that market, and of the enormous sums of money which have been made in it. Another disability that we have —I am sure the Minister appreciates it—is the existence of the Border. All the trafficking that goes on across there has a demoralising effect on the people.

Mr. Boland

On all classes of citizens, I am sorry to say.

Unfortunately. I notice from the figures which the Minister gave us that a rise in those petty crimes—I suppose that is what one would call them, larcenies, house-breakings and so on—was noticeable from 1938. May I tell the Minister that in the year 1938 only 1,000 persons were added to the lists of those in employment? It was the first year since the foundation of the State that the number was so small. In the five years, 1927 to 1931, there was an average of 11,400 people added each year to the numbers in employment. Those figures may or may not offer an explanation, but they do certainly show that there must have been a larger number of persons unemployed in the year 1938 and in the following year than in any other year since the foundation of the State. I would suggest to the Minister the need for some kind of an inquiry. Let it be formal or informal; let it be a commission or a committee, but at any rate let it be composed of people who will bend their minds to this problem—the problem of the prison system; whether there can be an improvement in that system; whether in any cases where convictions have taken place and persons have been sent to jail those persons have deteriorated there; in other words, whether what one might call the unbaptized criminal gets baptism there and goes on with his work when he comes out.

Some 40 years ago there was a notorious criminal in Great Britain. I will not mention his name, so that none of his relatives, if there are any of them left, can feel in any way aggrieved. He had powerful influence, and the Government of the day said in Parliament that the law officers of the Crown knew no law under which he could be prosecuted. One member of the Opposition mentioned a particular section of an Act, and the gentleman was arrested that evening. He was tried, convicted, and sentenced to seven years' penal servitude. His solicitor went down below to have an interview with him before he was taken away to the penal settlement, and the criminal was seen to put his hand to his mouth, and he then fell dead on the floor. What was the sequel? Within a fortnight, three other cases of suicide occurred, and in each case the same poison was used. At that time the particular poison was practically unknown, but the name of it was disclosed in connection with the first case. I wonder how far the reporting of cases of murder or of burglary or of larceny, and the various places where those things take place, has an effect upon weak-minded people who might not otherwise think of those crimes? Would the Minister consider it wise to include on that committee, if he gets one, a journalist or two, in order to get their views on that subject? Looking back over the last six or twelve months, unless my recollection is entirely at fault, there have been two or three murders of very much the same type, or at least having some of the same characteristics. I noticed the same thing many years ago in Great Britain. I think the first of them was the Moat Farm murder, and within five or six months several others of the same type had taken place. Those cases had been fully reported in the Press. The reporting of those cases may not have had any effect, but it is rather an extraordinary coincidence that there should be three or four murders of the same sort.

In connection with those small crimes such as larceny and housebreaking, I think the Minister ought to have in his Department or in the Guards some officer who would go into the circumstances of the individual in each case where there has been a conviction, in order to discover what are the pre-disposing causes, if any; whether the crime was committed merely to get money; whether it was due to want; whether it was that the person concerned had not got an overcoat or something of that sort. It is a very strange thing that the stealing of overcoats only started when there was a shortage of materials or overcoats.

I do not know what the Minister's experience has been in the last few years, but I never got as many applications from people in all parts of the country for old clothes, boots, overcoats, and so on. I would require to have a wardrobe which would rival that of the Queen of Sheba in order to be able to supply all the demands that have been made in that connection. The only recommendation I can make to the Minister is that he should endeavour to secure—I think he will not find it impossible—the support of the ecclesiastical authorities in connection with those matters. Public honesty and truth should be the very foundation of our national culture. Sometimes I am appalled when I hear or read of certain phases of history given expression to by untruthful historians. One is disposed to wonder what type of mind is likely to result from the reading of these untruthful accounts, either of history or of other events.

The Minister has the advantage that there is in this country more general support for the rule of law and order than there has been since the foundation of the State. It may be that it will still take a long time to let people see that, if the country is going to be built up, it will be built up more firmly and securely through the co-operation and assistance of all classes in the community than through those spasmodic interruptions and those slaughterings of peace officers of the State. The responsibility for improving the condition of affairs in this country is widespread. It is not the responsibility of any one section. No section of the community can evade its responsibility in that connection. I think it would be advisable, if it were only for the purpose of getting information, to have an inquiry into this matter and see how far, if at all, the circumstances under which we live and the influence of the cinema, of which I have no experience whatsoever, but reference to which I do hear occasionally, affect the minds of the people. If the cinema has a deteriorating effect upon the public, then it is the duty of public representatives to take their stand against it and to correct any evil tendencies that may exist. It is our duty and responsibility, having got the freedom that we have got, to prove that we are worthy of it.

In the course of the debate on the Vote on Account, I expressed alarm, not so much at the increase in the Estimates for the various services, but at the meagre results which were being obtained notwithstanding the increase in expenditure. I think the various services that come under the Minister's Department have increased very considerably during the last few years, and, while the Minister will never accuse me of being unduly sympathetic to his efforts, either in the administrative or the legislative sphere, I certainly do not attach full blame to him for the pitiful story which he has had to tell to-day of increases in every type of crime. The increases have been all around. There has been an alarming increase in petty crime, an increase in political crime, and a very alarming increase in the number of murders of the worst kind. These murders can be described as political and ordinary murders, although it would be very hard to attach to some murders which have been committed during the past few years the term "ordinary" because, as Deputy Cosgrave pointed out, they have been of a most dastardly kind.

Taking the more serious matters first, I think that Deputies not only feel sympathy over the members of the Gárda who have given their lives in the defence of law and justice, but they also have a deep sense of respect for such worthy officers of the State. Those men have laid down their lives in order that the simplest and feeblest citizen might be in a position to record his vote. They have laid down their lives to protect the rights of all the people, rich and poor, feeble and strong, and it is only right that every section of the House should join in expressing deep respect for those men and in expressing the feeling that is universally felt by all responsible parties in the State—a feeling of condemnation for all crimes of a political nature. There will be, I expect, an opportunity in the near future for members of all Parties to take a share in the formation of public opinion and I hope that when publicly expressing their views they will make it clear that under no circumstances will political crime ever again be tolerated.

Next in the order of magnitude we have an enormous increase in murders and other major crimes. It is hard to believe that this country is Christian when one reads the reports of such crimes. We are entitled to ask ourselves what is the cause of such an increase. It may be due to the present unrest, though it is hardly likely. It may also be due to the fact that owing to the disorganisation of supplies and the demoralisation caused by black-marketing, the moral standards of the people have been lowered. It is very easy to pass from small offences and petty crimes to the contemplation of more serious offences. A big responsibility rests, not upon the Minister, but on his colleagues who have so mismanaged the supply and distribution position.

I think, however, that there are other causes which must be taken into consideration in addition to the present emergency situation. The strongest force which could operate in support of the maintenance of peace and order is the moral standard of our people. The moral standard of our people rests mainly upon the education which our people receive in early life. By education I do not mean the education which is imparted in our schools and colleges, but the education which young people acquire through their occupations or lack of occupations and through their various forms of amusement.

There can be no doubt that nothing is more conducive to serious crime than to have young people, scarcely out of their teens, allowed to remain at a loose end, not having regular steady employment and thereby acquiring habits of idleness and vice. The main consideration, therefore, should be to ensure that our young people are given the opportunity to acquire a taste for industry and steady work. They can only do so in early life. There is no doubt that many of our young people to-day are not compelled to engage in industry and in steady employment to the same extent as in former years. The opportunities for steady employment do not exist. In addition, I think the Minister should bear in mind that, in the formation of character, the influence of the cinema must be taken into serious consideration. Nobody considers for a moment that such amusements do any injury to adults or even to young people in steady employment, but, in the case of young people who have practically no employment, who have nothing to do all day and who at any and every opportunity spend their time in picture houses, thereby having their mental make-up formed by what they see and hear in such places, the cinema certainly has not a good influence on them. I think the Minister should look into that aspect of the difficulty with which he is faced.

It has frequently been pointed out in the District Courts, in regard to minor crimes, that the motive behind their commission was to get money for the purposes of amusement, particularly to attend the cinemas. The real cause behind those crimes was that the moral character was built up by frequent attendances at those places of amusement without having it at the same time counterbalanced with a sufficient amount of useful employment. It should be possible to ensure that, for the future, our young people will be given more work and a better training in life, that they will be given opportunities to engage in steady employment from their school-leaving age until they reach manhood and womanhood, so that there will be no intervening period of idleness or lack of control. The latter is, I think, the real cause of the growth of crime here. Whatever may be said about the moral character which our people acquire in schools and colleges, and which is built up by their religious training, it is, I suggest, offset to a great extent by the type and character of the amusements which are being provided for them, as well as by the failure of the State and of the community to provide our young people with steady work.

The Gárdaí, I think, have been grappling with this menace of growing crime to the best of their ability. It is rather discouraging to find, at a time when so many of our citizens have come forward to give their services to the State through the Local Security Force, thereby assisting the Gárdaí in the carrying out of their ordinary duties, that their public spirited action has not resulted in any improvement in the maintenance of the law. That ought not, however, to discourage the Minister from continuing to call upon the best of our citizens to give their services to the Gárdaí, because whatever difficulties may arise, there is no doubt but that the latter will be strengthened in every possible way by having respectable and responsible citizens co-operating with them in the maintenance of order.

In regard to the ordinary duties performed by the Gárdaí in the prevention of crime, I have expressed on a former occasion the view that the methods employed by police in this and in perhaps other countries are not sufficiently up-to-date to be effective in dealing with the clever type of criminal. We must, of course, remember that at the present time crime has extended to all sections of the community, to people in every stratum of society, so that the Gárdaí are up against very clever criminals. I think I suggested before, in regard to the patrolling of our cities and towns, that instead of having only uniformed Guards on beat duty, there should be more frequent and more active patrols of plain clothes members of the Gárdaí and of members of the Local Security Force. These should be provided with bicycles to enable them to get from place to place silently and speedily, thereby making the operations of criminals, such as burglars and housebreakers, far more difficult than they would be if they only have to deal with uniformed members of the force. In regard to serious crime, I think the methods of investigation could bear improvement. I believe that as in other countries, where serious crime is committed, especially if it is of the organised type of murder, that all persons likely to have any knowledge of the crime either before or after its commission, or any knowledge of the circumstances relating to it, should not only be questioned by the Gárdaí, but that machinery should be set up through which they could be brought before a court of inquiry. That would not entail fresh legislation. It would only mean bringing the regulations for the holding of inquests up to date, having, perhaps, a more efficient type of investigator at the inquest and a full shorthand note taken of all the evidence given. I think that such a practice prevails in other countries. If it were adopted here it would get over a lot of the difficulty which arises in regard to statements taken by the Gárdaí, which, subsequently, are often the subject of much questioning as to the manner in which they were obtained. This is not a Party matter, as every Deputy is anxious to be helpful to the Minister, and to do everything possible to co-operate with him in establishing respect for the law, and in bringing to justice those who violate the law.

It is unfortunate that this Estimate was taken so early because it has brought a certain amount of gloom into the House. The Minister in his statement painted a very gloomy picture. We all know that he is a worthy Minister and that he enjoys the respect of every Party in the House. He is one of the Ministers for whom I have great respect because he is a man of his word and always speaks what is in his mind. If other Ministers acted in the same way it would be for the good of the country. The story that the Minister told us was a sad one in regard to the increase of crime. We could understand that in a war situation. In view also of the scarcity of goods and the black market there is bound to be a certain amount of petty larceny prevalent, as it is easy to get money in that way. That situation will disappear I believe when the war ceases. I am, however, concerned with the foul murders that were committed in this State during the last 12 months. To describe them in their true category, they were foul political murders. The time has come when the reason for such political murders should have died out. It is unfortunate that there is a certain type of people in this country who resort to such foul murders and who attack police officers who are only doing their duty. The Government must, however, take a certain amount of blame for a good deal of what has happened since they came into power. If they would repudiate their own past or if the Taoiseach——

This Estimate deals with the Department of the Minister for Justice only.

It would be far better for all of us if that was done. Certain things that happened in this country in the past cost a good deal of money and many lives, and it takes time to bring back a sense of civic responsibility to a large section of our people. Hence we have at present an amount of political turmoil that we should not have.

That is dangerous ground. It might lead to a very acrimonious debate.

The Minister mentioned that a large quantity of arms had been captured during the last 12 months, including 20 Thompson guns. Would they have been in the old dumps of 1924?

Mr. Boland

No.

If they were a new type of arms that came in recently then I think we must not have been doing our duty. Of course, if they belonged to people who dumped the arms in 1924——

The Deputy is again treading on dangerous ground.

There is at present disillusion with regard to the independence of this country and about social conditions. It is my belief that if social conditions were tackled in a more energetic way, in the proper way, both by the previous Government and by this Government, we would have got rid of many social evils. Work and wages are what will bring about contentment amongst the people. If they had work and wages there would not be so many petty larcenies or any political disturbances. It is because there is no work for them that some of our people are unsettled. I believe that the majority of our people are good people. It must be admitted that a certain amount of civic responsibility is lacking amongst them. There are many criminals abroad who could be brought to justice if the people did their duty and assisted the Garda. I know that many people are hedging and shelving their responsibility in that respect and, as a result, the Guards cannot do their duty as they would wish to do it. If there was a sound sense of civic responsibility abroad, and if there was not so much crawling and cowardice on the part of some people who are afraid to say what they know, many persons who are now outside would be behind jail bars and would not be sheltering in houses where they are not wanted. It is an unfortunate state of affairs that some of the chief officers and men in the Civic Guards have to give their lives in the course of their duty on behalf of people who will not assist them. If the Guards got a little more help crime would disappear.

I believe that we should have more investigation into the origin of the crimes that have occurred for some years past, to see how we could cope with them. There has been great comment for some years on the fact that there seems to be no code of justice and that every judge seems to have his own ideas when dealing with petty larcenies. One judge may give a person six months' hard labour for larceny, while another judge for a similar crime will let an offender off with a caution. In other cases where one judge would impose a sentence of a year's hard labour another judge would for the same offence let the offender off with a caution. In my opinion, we want a better code of law that would deal with crimes of a similar nature in a regular way. If a person commits an offence there should be a certain sentence laid down for it. That would help to create more civic spirit. It was unfortunate that the Minister had to paint such a gloomy picture but, in view of war conditions and social conditions, I suppose we could not expect anything better. Taking into account the foul murders that took place it would seem as if we were producing a lot of "thugs", because these murders were the foulest and the dirtiest that it is possible to commit. What is behind these murders? Nobody can say why they were committed. I tell the Minister that he will get every help from Deputies on all sides of the House and from the people in the country if he produces a new code of law, because the present code is bad and people are beginning to feel fed up about it. They expect criminals to receive a sentence for offences that they committed but very often they find that offenders get off lightly or are soon let home, while offenders in petty cases are taken to jail in the Black Maria.

It is deeply to be regretted that crime is on the increase in this country and that it is the sad duty of the Minister to comment on that increase. So far as his responsibilities to the country are concerned, Deputies have promised to give him every possible assistance in trying to stamp out that crime and have condemned it in the strongest possible terms. It is, of course, unfortunate that crime should be on the increase in a country like this where you would expect a very high standard. However, I do not think we should try to exaggerate the picture, bad and all as it is. There is a good deal of petty crime, due to the circumstances in which we live, the shortage of supplies, the fact that money is plentiful and that there are people willing and ready to pay any money for certain goods which are in short supply which is an incentive to people to rob and steal and plunder and by fair means or foul to get goods in order to get a handsome reward. Possibly in a large measure the petty crimes and larcenies are due to that. It will be very difficult to stamp that out while this emergency lasts, but it requires very strict control and rigid supervision to keep it down to the minimum at all events and, even more than that —what is sadly lacking, I suppose—the willing assistance and co-operation of the public as a whole. I am afraid in a large measure that is absent.

While I am inclined to criticise the Government rather severely at times in connection with other matters, I think it is very hard to lay any blame at their door, except perhaps that strict supervision and control of prices and distribution of supplies were not started in time. In recent months they have tried hard to establish a proper and effective control and distribution of supplies. Possibly better ways might be found, but to a great extent they have tried to do that.

It is unfortunate and a very sad state of affairs that very decent and capable members of the Gárda force have been foully murdered in the exercise of their duties, and we must join in sympathy with the Minister and with the members of their families.

I am not so much inclined to agree with Deputy Cogan that this increase in crime is all due to the cinema, because it appears to me a rather strange situation, if it is due to the cinema, that there have been quite a lot of crimes in rural districts recently where you would imagine the cinema would not have any great influence— crimes mostly amongst the farming community unfortunately. But we must face up to the situation that there have been a number of such crimes recently. I do not think the Deputy can attribute them to the influence of the cinema. There must be some other influences at work. On the whole, I think, we ought not to be unduly alarmed about it, because I do not think there has been any serious increase in crime. It is, of course, well to comment upon it and be ever on our guard, especially the Minister who is responsible.

There are one or two little matters to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. The first is the low pay of certain officers in county registrars' offices where there is a considerable amount of money passing through. In many cases these are married men with big families. It appears to me to be a scandal that the State should offer such a low rate of pay to men in responsible positions who are handling considerable sums of money collected by the county registrars for the Irish Land Commission—arrears of annuities on warrants, etc. There have been two or three cases of men in such positions who have absconded. In a great measure I think that is due to the fact that these people are underpaid. I think it is a very bad example for the State to give to the general community.

The other matter to which I wish to call attention is the pay of the Gárda, especially of recruits. I think it is as low as £2 per week. I suppose the Minister could not tell us off-hand. If I had known that we were taking this Vote as early as this I would have put down a question to elicit some information from the Minister as to the pay of the Gárda, classifying them into various groups. I think a commencing salary of £2 a week is shocking, particularly if you want to attract the best material in the country into the Gárda. I think it is regrettable that a salary as low as £2 per week should be offered to any man in such a position.

There is another problem that has struck me lately about the Gárda, and that is that there are a number of Gárdaí now well over 20 years in the service, possibly a figure round about 3,000 men, who within a few years will be due to retire. I wonder has the Minister or the Department thought anything about that problem. Are we to retire 3,000 men at once or will we spread their retirement over a period? It is time to be thinking out a scheme of retirement for the 3,000 men or so who were recruited when the State was set up over 20 years ago. I am merely drawing the Minister's attention to what I think may be a problem if some consideration is not given to the matter before the time for their retirement arrives. It may arise within the next three, or four or five years. The emergency problems at the moment may be occupying all the attention of the Minister and his Department. However, it is always well to be prepared for such a situation and have a proper scheme ready. To retire a big number of men within a short period would not be to the advantage of the force, and some plan should be worked out now. Possibly it might be well to begin to retire some men even now for the purpose of spreading their retirement over a long period. It might be good policy to begin two or three years earlier than in the normal course of events. I merely draw the Minister's attention to that problem, as he might be able to give the House some information on it.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to some small matters in connection with his Department. Of course, it is very necessary that the Minister should watch matters very closely because of the many powers which have been taken by Ministers. But, while I have the highest regard for the Gárda, some things have happened lately with which I could not agree, and with which, I am sure, no ordinary human being would agree. No matter what people are tried for, no matter what the offence may be, it is a frightful thing to keep a man in a cell for 75 hours and—if my information is right —not to allow him out during those 75 hours. The Minister knows exactly what I am referring to. I have made inquiries in the matter. I think it is a frightful state of affairs. I do not care who he is, if a man is put into a cell, he should not be kept there for 75 hours without being brought out. While I have the greatest admiration for the Guards and have always stood up for them, and will stand up for them to-day, I think that is a shameful state of affairs.

Another matter that I would like to direct the Minister's attention to is in regard to recruitment for the Gárda. Many Deputies as well as I had letters in connection with recruitment for the Gárda on the last occasion that recruitment took place. I am informed in regard to one case that a man who had his matriculation, leaving certificate and everything else, and who got his medical certificate and was called for early interview, was turned down and, after three months, was called up. I am liable to contradiction, but these are the facts as I got them. When he was good enough three months later, surely he was good enough in the first place.

There is another matter in connection with the Gárda. The position now is that the Gárda is open only to people with a university education. A farmer's son who gets a decent education in a national school or monastery and who has as much intelligence as a university graduate is as much entitled to become a Guard as the university graduate. I would ask the Minister to remedy that position. The standard has been made so high—I do not know if the Minister is responsible but somebody is responsible—that it is only a university man who can get into the Gárda, a position which is paid at the low rate of £2 a week. I heard Deputy Hughes referring to it. I would warn the Minister that he will never save money by reducing the pay of the Gárda. It is a difficult job. The Gárdaí are liable to every temptation. They have a good deal of leisure and, if they are not paid a fairly decent wage, they may get it in some other way, by blackmailing the trader. Low pay would tend to drive the Guards into blackmailing the trader or someone else if they are stuck for £5 or £10.

I hope the Minister will have the matters I brought to his attention reviewed so that better conditions may be provided for the Guards and so that no man will be kept continuously in a cell for 75 hours.

Mr. Byrne

I notice where film censorship is referred to, censorship of publications is referred to and I would like to ask the Minister does he not think it desirable, and that the time has arrived, for censorship of stage shows? I do not have much time to visit theatres, but recently I have heard comments by people who are not by any means kill-joys or cranks who consider it is time we had censorship of stage shows. I would be glad if the Minister, in replying, would give some indication as to what the attitude of his Department is in that regard.

Mr. Boland

As far as censorship of stage shows is concerned—I do not know if it is right to refer to it here— I have had no complaints about the position. Unless there is a very big demand for censorship, my own personal inclination is, as far as possible, to keep away from it. But, if there is a big demand for it, if there is great abuse of the stage, of course, it would be necessary then but I have had no complaints in that connection.

Deputy Ryan referred to recruitment of the Guards. I answered a question yesterday on that point. The standard that was set for examination was rather high and there will be a conference between the Commissioner of the Gárda and the Civil Service Commissioners to consider the setting of a more reasonable standard. In the meantime, most of those who were called for examination and did not come up to the required standard may be interviewed again and I think most of them, very likely, will be called.

In regard to keeping people in cells for 75 hours, that is a very rare occurrence indeed and, if it occurred, must have arisen out of very special circumstances. I agree it is not a practice that ought to be resorted to. It is not the practice. I think it arose only in the very special circumstances of that particular case. I quite agree that it ought not to be done. It may be necessary to keep persons longer in Gárda stations on account of the difficulty of transport, but the idea of keeping a man in a cell for 75 hours—I am not admitting that that has been done but, if it did happen, I admit it would not be a thing that the Guards would like to do and it is not a thing that would be desirable. I am not admitting that it did happen.

In regard to the Gárda pay, there has been a change, as far as recruits are concerned. For the first six months during which they are in the Depôt they will get £2 7s. 0d. There has been an increase of 7/-. When they leave the Depôt they will start at £2 17s. 0d. There is a rather steeper increase than there was some time ago.

Would the Minister say what decrease the £2 7s. 0d. represents?

Mr. Boland

I just cannot say. I have not got the figures at my fingers' ends. It was lower than it was some years ago. I know they started at £2 10s. 0d. some years ago. That was offset by increases in other directions, rent allowance, and things of that kind. Deputy Giles referred to the different sentences imposed by judges. I think there is no way of getting over that. It is not the law that is responsible for that. The judge tries to make the punishment fit the crime according as the crime appears to him. I would not agree that there should be a standard punishment. That would be entirely wrong. I think as long as we have judges they will have different ways of assessing the crime and the punishment.

Are minimum penalties in operation?

Mr. Boland

No. There was talk of that in regard to tillage offences but I do not think they were ever put into operation. I think power was taken.

Yes, there was a Bill.

Mr. Boland

But it was never given effect to, as far as I know. On the general question of the state of the country, of course, it is very alarming to see such a big increase in crime and I am very much perturbed about it but I do not think we need be unduly alarmed because, whatever Deputy Costello may think—Deputy Cosgrave and others disagree with him—there is no doubt whatever that it is due to the war conditions which have created a scarcity of commodities. I have no doubt whatever about that. I think it is that people who have been used to having as much as they want of certain articles are not prepared to do without them. I think the black market is the root of the trouble.

Most of the black market operations are in goods that are in short supply. People engaged in the black market buy these goods, and so-called respectable citizens resort to the black market. We might as well face that fact. People will not go without if they can get anything they require. There is no use in saying that there is a wave of crime, or that any particular class of the community is responsible. I believe myself that it is confined to very few individuals in the community, and I am quite satisfied, from what I can hear, that the increased crime is not due, as suggested by Deputy Norton, to the fact that some men are compelled to rob to provide for their wives and families. It is largely due to people who want to get rich quick, not to those who want to provide for family needs. If criminals did not get a ready market for stolen articles, I believe that there would be less of this class of crime. I have heard myself of people boasting that they were able to get stuff that was in short supply. There was only one way of getting these goods. The people from whom they bought them did not steal them, but they bought them from some other parties who probably did steal them. I have no doubt, as I say, that crime of this nature is due to the fact that people who were well accustomed to having certain goods in normal times are so selfish that they are not prepared to do without them now, and that they are prepared to pay enhanced prices for them.

Some reference has been made to the desirability of asking the Church to help in this matter. I do not think there is any necessity to do that, but anything that could be done in that direction is being done. I am sure that the Church authorities are quite familiar with the circumstances, and in Pastorals and in sermons they are doing everything they can to discourage lying and dishonesty. Probably it is due to the weakness of human nature that when people are up against short supplies they are not too scrupulous as to how they obtain them. Although I have stated that the number of crimes has increased by 17,000, it is not to be deduced from that that 17,000 individuals were concerned. One person might have committed ten crimes. Some people make a habit of stealing, and one of these persons may be responsible for many crimes. Taken over the whole community, the figures represent only one-half per cent. In that way I think it need not be feared that we are a nation of criminals altogether.

Deputy Cosgrave made a suggestion as to the desirability of curtailing the publicity of details of certain shocking crimes that have occurred in recent years. He said that the publication of the details of these crimes probably resulted in the commission of similar crimes by other people. I do not know what we can do about that. I suppose the Press will always feature these sort of crimes. They give very great publicity to them, but whether that has any effect in inducing other people to commit crime, I am not in a position to say, and I do not know that any good purpose would be served by going into a matter of that kind. We have had unfortunately a number of these crimes recently, but let us hope there will be less of them in future. There were, I think, four or five in the past year, and in proportion to the population I think that is not very alarming. It is of course a very sad state of affairs to see them occurring at all, but I suppose in any community you will have people who will do things of that sort.

So far as the prevention of crime is concerned, I agree with Deputy Costello that prevention would be better than punishment. I must say that the Guards do all they can to prevent crime but it is very difficult to prevent people stealing. When a man hangs up his coat in a restaurant, you cannot have a policeman there to see that the coat is not taken by somebody else. The same remarks apply to bicycle stealing. The thieves wait until the Guards are not about to carry out the crime. I think that in these times people generally should be very careful about their property because undoubtedly there is that increase in crime and if people do not look after their possessions themselves one cannot expect the Guards to be everywhere. You cannot put a Guard in every shop, and it behoves people themselves to take more precautions to ensure that their property will not be stolen. Some of the premises on which burglaries were carried out were very easily entered, and I think it would have paid the owners of these premises to employ a night watchman. We cannot, as I say, provide a Guard for every shop. The Guards are doing all that it is possible to do in the circumstances.

It is all to the good that we have had such agreement in this House on the question of the prevention of crime. I do not want to go back on the past, but I would have preferred if Deputy Cosgrave had not adverted to the attitude of this Party when in opposition. I do not think it is correct to say that we ever countenanced crime, and I gathered from his remarks that that is what he suggested. It may be that we were not very well trained in opposition and we may not have been quite as responsible as some people would desire, but I do not think it right for anyone to suggest that we at any time countenanced either political crime or any other form of crime. I do not want to dwell to any great extent on that matter but I thought it rather ungracious on the Deputy's part to suggest that we ever did.

I do not think there is any evidence to support the suggestion of Deputy Norton that increased crime is due to the fact that some men have to resort to dishonesty in order to maintain their wives and children. Unfortunately there does seem to be a big increase in crime as far as young people are concerned. I have here a return, which I did not quote in making my introductory speech, which shows the number of cases in 1942 in which juveniles, that is, young people under 18, were concerned. The number in 1942 was 3,340 as against 1,605 in 1939. Generally it is not economic causes that make these young people steal. It is rather extraordinary that Deputy Norton should say that the increase was attributable to the fact that men were compelled to provide for their wives and families. I think most people are aware that it is people who have money, or at least a good number of them, who have been found guilty of larceny, people who want certain supplies and will not deny themselves. Unfortunately the poor have never been able to get all they want and now they are prepared to endure more privation than people in comfortable circumstances. I do not think there is any other point calling for comment on the Vote.

Vote put and agreed to.
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