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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Apr 1943

Vol. 89 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Vote 69—Supplies.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £1,948,536 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Supplies, including payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

I propose to give the Dáil a general review of the supply position as well as to deal with the various administrative problems which concerned the Department of Supplies during the past year. The review which I shall give must necessarily be of a general character. As the House is aware, the Department of Supplies has some function in relation to every commodity used in commerce. It has either the responsibility of organising or facilitating the importation of that commodity, of regulating its distribution, or of controlling its price. It would be impracticable to deal, even briefly, with all of the many activities of the Department. It is for that reason that I propose to confine my introductory remarks to the general aspects of the supply position, or to commodities which are of exceptional importance. I can assure the Dáil that I shall be only too willing to deal in detail with any matter which may be raised by Deputies. It is my desire to give to the House and to the country the fullest possible information concerning the position in respect of our essential supplies. If, therefore, I do not, in these introductory remarks, deal with any matter with which an individual Deputy may be concerned, it will be my intention to deal with that particular matter later when it has been raised by that Deputy. On that basis I can, I think, request Deputies to deal, in this discussion, with the work of the Department of Supplies in a constructive way and, because the fullest possible information will be available to them either now or later, to have full regard in their remarks to the realities of our situation.

Generally speaking, the supply position was maintained better than we were entitled to hope at this time last year. That not unsatisfactory result was due, partly, to the good management of and our comparative good fortune in the operation of our shipping facilities, partly to the success of the efforts of the Government to expand the home production of foodstuffs and essential industrial materials and, partly, to the increased efficiency resulting from the wider experience, and an improved and enlarged organisation, of the Department of Supplies.

In the matter of foodstuffs, our position worsened in respect of sugar but improved substantially in respect of flour. The position in respect of clothing has deteriorated, but arrangements for the control of the utilisation and distribution of available supplies were improved. There has been a steady and alarming worsening of our supply of petroleum products which constituted the gravest of all our problems. The position in respect of industrial materials has remained reasonably good, and, in some respects, has greatly improved. The outlook for the coming year, while uncertain, is not bad, except in certain limited respects. Probably the wheat situation will remain secure, the sugar position will improve, the butter position will be eased by the more effective control of production and distribution, the transport situation will grow in acuteness to the dimensions of a crisis, the clothing situation will disimprove, generally, but may be better in some respects. Turf supplies for the non-turf area will, on the basis of the present ration, be reasonably secure, and industrial materials will improve in certain important respects.

Our comparatively favourable situation now, as compared with our anticipations of 12 months ago, is not due solely to the efforts which have been made to expand home production. During the course of the year we were able to import considerable quantities of necessary supplies from abroad. Our difficulties in maintaining imports of all commodities, or of procuring the quantities necessary to avoid a scarcity here, were, however, due to causes other than the scarcity of shipping. While the shortage of ocean-going shipping has continued to limit our ability to obtain essential supplies from abroad, a new difficulty emerged during the course of the past 12 months by reason of the imposition of restrictions by the exporting countries upon the release of these materials, particularly in the case of the United States of America. Our importers experienced steadily increasing difficulties in securing the necessary permits to obtain the release of goods we needed from these countries.

The shipping situation was, of course, the basis of all the problems of maintaining imports. During the year which ended on the 1st April, only a very small number of foreign ships arrived in our ports. During that period we received seven cargoes of petroleum products, brought upon British tankers, but, apart from these, no other foreign ocean-going shipping was available except two small ships of Panamanian nationality which were chartered for voyages to Lisbon. One of these ships was lost on a voyage in September last. We had, therefore, to rely almost exclusively upon the ships of Irish Shipping, Limited, and on smaller ships owned by three Irish shipping companies of which there were eleven at the outbreak of the war and of which there are now only six left. It is, I think, appropriate at this stage to refer to the loss with all hands during the year of the "Irish Pine." It was an incident which brought home to the people of this country the risks to which our shipping services are subjected. The loss of the crew of that vessel brought forth a spontaneous demonstration from the whole people of sympathy with the relatives of the members of the crew. It will help the Dáil to realise how narrow is our margin of safety when I mention that the loss of that one vessel reduced the carrying capacity of all ships under our control by 10 per cent.

Since the incorporation of Irish Shipping, Limited, its ships have brought 514,000 tons of imports of priceless value to this country during the past year. Smaller ships on the Lisbon route carried 55,000 tons of cargo comprising wheat, pyrites for the manufacture of superphosphate, coffee and cocoa beans, vegetable oils and fats, newsprint, citrous fruits, medical and surgical supplies, machinery and other essential goods. It is hoped during the present year to ship sufficient wheat to leave a small surplus with which to face the coming cereal year, to ship also a quantity of sugar from the West Indies, despite the long and hazardous voyage that is involved, to ship a substantial tonnage of phosphate rock which, although small in relation to our normal needs, will be of special importance, to bring here considerable quantities of tobacco and newsprint and smaller quantities of many important industrial materials. All the transport available to us on the Atlantic route is, of course, confined to essential products, and there is no space to spare on our ships for the carriage of non-essential goods. Very many applications for space upon these ships, received from importers of various commodities during the year, have had to be refused, arising out of the decision to confine these ships to the transport of goods which we regard as essential to the life of the community.

Dealing with the various classes of commodities which are of special importance, I wish to take firstly foodstuffs. The most important foodstuff is, of course, wheat. At this time last year, as Deputies will remember, our stocks of wheat were very low. When the Dáil was discussing the Estimate for the Department of Supplies a large part of the time was devoted to debating the flour and bread situation then existing. The deliveries of flour had been curtailed and the formal rationing of bread appeared at that time to be unavoidable. As a result of the arrangements made, however, normal conditions were restored much earlier than we had hoped. In fact, by June, 1942, deliveries of flour from the mills were proceeding on a normal basis. Up to date, from the harvest of 1942 263,000 tons of green wheat have been delivered to the flour mills. I think the maximum quantity we can now expect to receive from last year's harvest is 270,000 tons. Last year the quantity of wheat delivered to the flour millers was 220,000 tons.

Deputies will notice a certain peculiarity about these figures. The quantity of wheat grown in the country last year certainly exceeded 500,000 tons. Making all due allowance for the retention of wheat for seed purposes and for the feeding of members of farmers' families, there still appears to be an inexplicable deficiency in the quantity of wheat made available for flour milling. A similar situation arose last year. It may be that there is some factor in the situation which has not been taken fully into account; but, upon the basis of our experience this year, it is obvious that an increase in the acreage under wheat of nearly 100,000 acres would be necessary to give us from home sources alone the full quantity of wheat which would enable us to meet all the flour and bread requirements of the country without imports. The total requirements of wheat for the financial year which ended on the 31st March were 342,000 tons and during that period 147,000 tons were imported. The farmer's price for the wheat is 50/- per barrel, as Deputies are aware. That price represents a cost of 57/2 for dried millable wheat delivered to the flour mills. The present price of imported wheat delivered at Irish ports, with cost, insurance, and freight paid, is about 50/7 per barrel.

In the case of sugar, it became evident in the late spring of last year that, in the light of the decreased acreage sown with sugar beet, the ration of three-quarters of a pound of sugar per head per week which was then current could not be maintained and, therefore, the ration was reduced in August to half a pound per head per week. The stocks of sugar at present in hands will enable that ration to be maintained until the commencement of the next sugar production season. For the purpose of preserving the maximum employment possible, deliveries of sugar to manufacturers needing sugar in their processes of manufacture are maintained at 80 per cent. of the normal; while, in the case of the jam manufacturers, because of the difficulties created by the scarcity of butter, the higher price prevailing for butter, and the disappearance of margarine, normal deliveries are maintained. This year, as the House, I think, is aware, a substantially increased acreage of beet has been contracted for, and, assuming a normal harvest and the safe arrival of the sugar which has been purchased in the West Indies, it will be possible to consider increasing the sugar ration before the end of the year.

During the past year allocations of tea from the United Kingdom have been received regularly on the basis of 25 per cent. of deliveries to this country during the datum period, the 12 months which ended in June, 1939. The House will remember from previous discussions that Tea Importers, Limited, a company which the Government set up for the purpose of purchasing tea, arranged during 1941 to buy in India some 12,000,000 lbs. of tea. Only a proportion of that tea, however, had reached this country when the extension of the war in the Far East made further shipments impossible. I decided then that a conservative policy in respect of tea was necessary in view of the general uncertainty as to the situation in the Far East. But it was decided to release some of the tea which had been imported by Tea Importers, Limited, for the purpose of increasing the ration to 1 oz. per week during the winter months and to keep it at ¾ of an oz. per week since the beginning of the present month. If a conservative policy is followed and assuming a continuance of the present allocation from the United Kingdom, it should be possible to maintain the present ration for a reasonable time or, alternatively, again to increase the ration to 1 oz. per head during the winter months, for which course there is much to be said because it is during that period that supplies of milk are at their lowest.

In the case of butter the situation during the year was not satisfactory. The quantities which were produced by the creameries in 1942 and 1941 were 615,000 cwts. and 663,000 cwts. respectively. The average monthly consumption in 1941 was 41,000 cwts., and in 1942, 51,000 cwts. To put it otherwise, in 1942 the production of butter within the country decreased by 48,000 cwts., but the consumption increased by 126,000 cwts. A serious shortage occurred in Dublin around September last and rationing was introduced in that area. At the same time, Orders were made by the Minister for Agriculture restricting deliveries from the creameries to other parts of the country so as to spread the available reserves of stocks over the whole winter period. I have received many proposals for the introduction of formal butter rationing into other parts of the country outside Dublin. It is only in Dublin that formal rationing operates at the moment. The difficulty of rationing butter in rural areas and in country towns arises, as most Deputies will see, from the impracticability of bringing supplies of farmers' butter under control. It is intended, however, to avail of the period in this year when production will exceed current requirements to bring into operation a formal control of the consumption of creamery butter in the whole area of the State and to take such measures as are necessary to ensure the conservation of an adequate supply in cold storage for next winter.

In connection with the scarcity of butter, frequent references are made to the position in respect of the supply of cooking fats and oils. Although in normal times in this country we had an exportable surplus of animal fats, because of the disappearance of margarine and also by reason of the requirements of industry, the demand for animal fats now exceeds the supply. The shortage of fats here is not as keenly felt as in other European countries, and our problem is mainly one of making cheap fats available for the poorer sections of the population. To control the situation, all the fat melters, other than butchers producing lard and dripping for retail sale, have been licensed, and it has been made illegal to use edible fat for purposes other than human consumption. Substantial quantities of fats normally classified as inedible have been refined at Drogheda to produce a high-class edible fat which is being put on sale in areas where there is found to be a grave shortage of cooking fats. During the Christmas period 20 tons of Drogheda fat were placed on sale in the poorer areas of Dublin and further quantities have recently been released for distribution in the same area. It was at first proposed to confine this fat to persons who were prepared to take it in lieu of their butter ration or some proportion of their butter ration, but there was little demand for it on that basis, although it was available at 9d. and 11d. per lb. It is now being released at the rate of 12 tons per week and shopkeepers have been asked to confine it to their poorer customers.

Complaints have been published in the Press from time to time that fats are going to waste in public abattoirs and private slaughterhouses. I have had these complaints investigated. The investigation has established that there is no serious waste except perhaps in some small slaughterhouses which are located so far away from any melting plant that it is uneconomic to collect their rougher fats for melting.

I have mentioned already that the gravest of the problems which we will face this year arise under the head of transport. I have frequently in the past expressed the view that members of the Dáil, and some members of the public, have failed to appreciate fully the gravity of our situation in respect of transport services. In the case of petrol, against a normal requirement of petrol of about 44,000,000 gallons per year, we received 17,000,800 gallons in 1941, 13,750,000 gallons in 1942, and in the present year we have been notified to expect a further and considerable reduction in the quantity available to us. These figures will, I think, help to bring home to the House the need for confining allocations of petrol to essential purposes and also the impossibility of meeting the many demands for petrol for various purposes which are expressed by Deputies from time to time. Furthermore, there is a possibility, nearly strong enough to be a probability, that for periods either long or short during the present year there will be a complete cessation of petrol deliveries. Already in this year there was a period in which we were faced with the prospect of complete exhaustion of stocks. Orders restricting the public transport services and enforcing other drastic reductions in petrol consumption were prepared and were about to be brought into operation when the fortuitous arrival of some limited supplies postponed the need for them and, by various measures, arrangements were made to avoid that possibility pending the arrival of a new cargo. That situation which had so nearly arisen already this year will, in all probability, arise before the year is over.

It may be no harm to mention in this connection the plans which the Department is making in order to provide against a situation in which there will be no petrol available to the country. The only alternative means, apart from horse transport, of keeping vehicles moving, is by equipping them with gas-producer plants. It is, of course, necessary to bear in mind that our ability to put gas-producer plants upon vehicles is itself limited. The materials which are available for the manufacture of these plants, the output capacity of the manufacturing firms and the supplies of solid fuel necessary for their operation are all strictly limited. It has been decided, however, to encourage the more rapid fitting of commercial vehicles with gas-producer equipment by various means. In the case of the large scale transport operators they will in effect be required to do so. I mean that the continuation of petrol allocations to these firms will be made conditional upon their equipping a proportion of their total fleets with gas-producer plants. Persons who voluntarily convert their commercial vehicles to the use of producer gas will continue to receive petrol allocations so long as they are in a class of persons to whom petrol would in any event be allowed. That concession, primarily designed to encourage the equipment of commercial vehicles with these plants, will also be extended to the owners of hackney vehicles. Arrangements are being made to effect the standardisation of these plants and to ensure that only approved types will be produced.

Up to the present it has been considered unnecessary to make available allowances of petrol to owners of gas-producer vehicles, unless they were entitled to petrol in any event, for starting purposes. The manufacturers of the plant have frequently urged the desirability of making available small allocations of petrol for these plants for priming purposes. It is possible to start these plants operating without petrol, but it will facilitate owners of vehicles fitted with these plants and encourage other owners to instal them if we make available a small monthly allowance of petrol for priming purposes, and it has been decided now to do that. Permits are required to fit gas-producer plants in any vehicles and they will be given only in respect of commercial vehicles which are in a good state of repair and which exceed one ton unladen weight. Arrangements which I need not detail now are being made to expand the production of solid fuel for gas-producer equipment, mainly by an increased output of turf charcoal.

I have dealt, however, with only one petroleum product, namely, petrol. In the case of paraffin oil, our normal consumption was about 17,500,000 gallons per year, and supplies during 1942 were 10,000,000 gallons. This year, we do not expect to receive more than 8,000,000 gallons. Of these 8,000,000 gallons, more than 4,000,000 will be required for agricultural tractors; 1,000,000 gallons will be required for other food-producing equipment, such as incubators, grain mills, fishing boats and the like; and roughly another 1,000,000 gallons will be needed by other industrial users. It will be seen, therefore, that only a very meagre quantity will be left for domestic purposes. So far as it is possible to ascertain the figure, about 8,500,000 gallons of paraffin were used normally every year for domestic purposes, and of the balance of the total supply which will be available this year and which can be released for domestic purposes, already 1,000,000 gallons have been used in the earlier months of the year.

It is clear, therefore, that having regard to the fact that the requirements of agriculture will be greater this year than ever, every possible economy must be resorted to in order to ensure that there will be some supplies of paraffin oil, however limited, for rural homes during the coming winter months. The hardship which the absence of any form of lighting involves in these homes will readily be appreciated by Deputies, and I trust, therefore, that they will use every influence in their own constituencies to discourage claims for paraffin oil by farmers, fishing boat owners or other users, in excess of their minimum essential needs. It is, of course, very difficult to determine to a gallon the exact allocation which should be given to a particular tractor owner or other commercial user of paraffin oil and there has been a tendency to exaggerate claims for supplies. That tendency must be discouraged by the exercise of public opinion on the people concerned. It is only thus that we can scrape together a limited quantity of paraffin oil to make provision for domestic lighting in the darkest months of next winter.

In that connection, I might refer at this stage to the position concerning supplies of candles. Our normal consumption of candles was about 3,500 tons per year. To manufacture 3,500 tons of candles, an equivalent quantity of paraffin wax was required, and in the past we imported that paraffin wax from the United Kingdom, the United States of America and Burma. Exports from the United Kingdom are prohibited and, as Deputies are aware, Burma is occupied by the Japanese, and we cannot get supplies from that area. The United States authorities have agreed to make us an allocation of 1,000 tons per annum. The quantity of candles available, therefore, will be only 30 per cent. of our normal requirements. Not all these candles can, however, be released for domestic use. Certain essential industries, such as coal-mining and ship-building, must get their full needs. All supplies of paraffin wax have been reserved for candle manufacture, except for some insignificant quantities which are made available to a few essential industries.

The other petroleum product to which I wish to refer is fuel oil. In the case of fuel oil, supplies have been reduced by more than half. Of the available supplies, 33 per cent. must be used for transport purposes and 25 per cent. is required for food production in grain mills, bakeries, creameries, fishing boats and the like. The balance is needed by other industrial concerns, some of which are of vital importance to the country. It is quite clear that the economies which have already been enforced in the usage of fuel oil are insufficient to bring that usage within the anticipated supplies, and, consequently, further and considerable reductions in the allocation of fuel oil to these users will have to be enforced in the near future.

I wish now to give a brief outline of the position in respect of clothing. It will, of necessity, have to be a brief outline. In view of the large number of separate materials and commodities which are included under the heading of clothing, and in view also of the variety of orders and directions which have been given for the purpose of coping with the problems of scarcity and to make the best use of the available supplies, it is impossible to do more than give a very general review of the position. In the case of cotton, we receive periodic allocations of cotton yarns and fabrics from the United Kingdom. These allocations represent 10 per cent. of our normal needs. They are at present being supplemented by some small quantities imported from the United States of America. Similarly in the case of woollens and woollen yarns, periodic allocations are received from the United Kingdom, but they are so small in relation to our normal imports that we are for all practical purposes entirely dependent on our own wool resources.

To ensure an equitable distribution of available supplies and to prevent excessive competition between traders in this country forcing up prices to our detriment, a buying permit system has been arranged in agreement with the United Kingdom authorities, under which all applications to purchase supplies of cotton and woollen yarns and piece goods must be accompanied by a buying permit issued by the Department of Supplies. That system has greatly facilitated the proper distribution of supplies and ensures also that the fullest advantage is taken of the available quotas. In the case of linen yarns and silk yarns, all imports have ceased. In the case of art silk, in June of last year—the date will be of some significance to Deputies in view of the agitation proceeding at that time against clothes rationing— the authorities in the United Kingdom decided to discontinue all new production of art silk goods for this country, and since then have allotted no further export to us, except for some run-off of orders which had been placed prior to June, 1942. Since March 1st of the present year all types of art silk yarns have been subjected to export control by the United Kingdom authorities.

The only textile which we can produce from native materials is woollens. There is no machinery in the country for the spinning of flax yarn. In the case of woollens, the difficulty is that the spinning capacity of the Irish mills is not sufficient to produce all the yarns which could be utilised on their weaving machines. Arrangements have been made which will result in this year in an increased output of worsted yarns, which will ease the supply position to some extent. To sum up the whole textile situation, we can estimate that, during 1943, the supply of textiles of all kinds will equal about 22 per cent. of our normal needs. That substantial contraction in the total supply available to the country has, of course, necessitated a very rigid control over the use to be made of the quantities available.

Under the Emergency Powers (Manufacture of Textiles and Textile Articles) Order, directions are given to manufacturers for the purpose of ensuring the production only of essential cloths and garments and the making of the best use of available supplies. Clothes rationing, as Deputies are aware, is in operation, but it has been operating on a more liberal basis than the supply position justifies, and the result has been the encouragement of undesirable activities by speculators which will now have to be curtailed by direct action against them. Regulations have been made requiring shirt manufacturers to institute economies in the making up of shirts and to maintain a balance between the production of men's and boys' shirts; the reservation of proofed gaberdine and similar cloths, for the making up of raincoats; economies in the making of men's and boys' suits; limiting the types of art-silk garments which may be made, and instituting economies in the making up of women's outer garments; controlling the production of hosiery garments—and for many purposes, designed to prevent waste and to ensure the production, so far as is practicable and consistent with the provision of employment, of utility clothes only.

In the case of fuel, no material change in regard to coal supplies occurred during the past year. Practically all the coal received was of low quality, and indistinguishable from low-grade steam coal, and consisted mostly of slack. Imports of coal in 1942 averaged 23,000 tons per week, as compared with 50,000 tons per week in a normal pre-war year. It is not possible to include any coal in the domestic fuel ration. It has been possible to maintain sufficient supplies of coal to industrial users in the non-turf areas. In the turf areas permits to purchase coal in such quantities as, used in conjunction with turf, would be sufficient to meet industrial requirements, have been issued. The allocation of gas-coal to this country by the United Kingdom authorities has been reduced to one-sixth of normal needs. Six of the smaller gas undertakings have closed down here since the war began, and in all areas there has been a curtailment of the hours of supply and a reduction in the calorific values of the gas supply. There is no immediate prospect of any improvement in the gas position.

Due to the abnormally dry weather and, consequently, the high coal consumption required for electricity production, it has been necessary to reintroduce the rationing of electricity since the 1st of April. The drive initiated by the Government for increased turf production was conducted successfully during the past year. The limiting factor affecting turf supplies for the non-turf areas is transport. It is not possible to transport more than 450,000 tons of turf in one season and, therefore, turf for domestic use has had to be rationed in the non-turf areas. This rationing was also designed to secure the building up of a stock of turf in those areas to meet a situation in which transport might have to be further curtailed. The reserve of turf is now about 300,000 tons, as compared with 185,000 tons at the corresponding date last year, and on the basis of average weekly sales, during the past winter, it is sufficient to meet immediate needs for 12 months ahead. It has continued to be sold at 64/- a ton, although the average cost of production, transportation, and storage has exceeded that figure very considerably. The total subsidy required to maintain the present price is, roughly, 23/6 per ton.

With regard to the Supplementary Estimate which was introduced here to-day, the position is, as Deputies are aware, that the machinery of Fuel Importers, Ltd., is being utilised for bringing turf into the non-turf areas and also for the distribution of the turf within those areas, and that organisation is also responsible for the equalisation of the price of turf throughout the non-turf area. The turf which is dealt with by Fuel Importers, Ltd., may be divided into two classes. One class is turf produced by the efforts of the county surveyors, and the other is turf that is produced by private individuals. Fuel Importers, Ltd., enter into firm contracts with private producers and the price, of course, is definitely known. In the case of turf produced through the efforts of the county surveyors, which, in fact, represents over 80 per cent. of all the turf purchased by Fuel Importers, Ltd., provisional prices have been intimated by the Department of Local Government and Public Health. Further provisional arrangements will have to be made and a final settlement will not be possible before the winding up of the production programme at the end of the present emergency. It is already obvious, however, that the cost of saving the turf, delivering it, and keeping considerable quantities of it stored in dumps, to be used when required, will be very heavy. The Government have fixed 64/- a ton as the present maximum price and the price at which Fuel Importers, Ltd., can sell the turf is this retail price less a reasonable margin for merchants. The difference between the all-in cost of the turf to Fuel Importers, Ltd., and the price at which it is sold by them is the loss which will be recouped to the company under sub-head G.

Does that mean that it costs 87/6 a ton?

Yes, that would be right. That is the average cost. The provision in the main Estimate was intended to recoup Fuel Importers, Limited, for the loss incurred by them on the sale of turf from the commencement of their operations in the sale of turf in December, 1941, up to 31st December, 1943. Certain factors were taken into consideration with regard to the price, based provisionally on the turf produced by the county surveyors. That price, however, has proved to be too low, in the light of figures that have come to hand since and, accordingly, a considerable increase in the main Estimate is necessary. It is for that reason that it is necessary to move a Supplementary Estimate for £280,000, which will bring the total estimate for turf subsidy to £666,000.

I think the Minister said that the cost of turf is 64/-, plus 23/6 of a subsidy?

The Deputy must understand that the subsidy is considerably increased by the need for storing turf in the non-turf areas.

I take it that is the cost at the point of consumption?

For a considerable portion of the year turf is transported from the turf areas to the merchants' yards, where it is sold. In addition to that, turf supplies are brought in and stored in dumps. The total cost of turf, 87/6 per ton, includes the cost of storing the turf in dumps. A very substantial item is represented by the loss of weight which occurs while the turf is being stored. In fact, the figures upon which we are now working are based upon an assumed loss of 20 per cent. in the weight of turf in the dumps. It is mainly due to the loss of moisture, but to some extent it is also due to the crumbling of the turf.

It collects a little moisture in the dumps, too.

That fact does seriously alter the average price of all the turf to Fuel Importers, Ltd. In respect of industrial materials, I do not propose to refer, except in a general way, to the immense problems which are involved in maintaining supplies of these materials. It would take a very long time to make even a brief reference to all the problems which have arisen. There are, however, a few materials of that class which are of special significance and concerning which the Dáil may desire to know the position.

The first of these is rubber. When I spoke here last year, I anticipated that by this time all our rubber stocks would have been exhausted and no new rubber goods of any kind would be available for any purpose. Fortunately, as a result of special arrangements made during the year, and as a result, to some extent, of the rigid conservation of supplies during the year, together with the fullest possible utilisation of reclaimed rubber, the situation, although still very serious, is nevertheless much better than was anticipated. It will be possible to maintain a sufficient supply of new and remoulded tyres for vehicles engaged in essential work and public transport services to meet requirements for the present year. It is hoped to make available also about 300,000 cycle tyres which, although very much less than our requirements, is larger than the supply which was released last year. The manufacture of rubber boots has been suspended, but a small quantity of rubber has been reserved for the repair of damaged boots. Rubber fittings for industrial machinery can also be provided. As a matter of interest, I can mention that the total quantity of salvaged rubber in 1942 was 140 tons, and that represents a very welcome addition to our stocks.

What about tractor tyres?

They are not covered by the statement I have made.

Has the Minister any information about the manufacture of tractor tyres?

It will be possible to maintain a sufficient number of new and remoulded tyres for vehicles to meet essential requirements.

Are tractor tyres being made in this country?

They are not manufactured here.

Where did you get all the rubber that you did get?

I can only refer the Deputy to the statement I have made which, I think, is sufficiently comprehensive. In the case of fertilisers, we have arranged for the importation of 20,000 tons of phosphate rock. That has to be imported from Florida, and it involves a very long sea voyage over a very dangerous route. Whether it will be possible, later on, to obtain supplies of rock from North Africa, is not yet certain. Our normal requirements of phosphate rock are about 100,000 tons per year. We have arranged also to import a smaller quantity of pyrites from Spain against a normal requirement of 40,000 tons. These pyrites and phosphate rock are required for the manufacture of superphosphate.

The only other fertilisers which will be available this year will be a limited quantity of sulphate of ammonia and some potash, supplied by the United Kingdom authorities for the flax crop. For spraying materials it is expected there will be about 800 tons of copper sulphate, against a normal supply of 3,200 tons. We expect to have adequate supplies of sodium carbonate. Deputies may be interested to know that there will be a bare sufficiency, but a sufficiency nevertheless, of binder twine, resulting from the importation of 1,000 tons of sisal for manufacture into twine here, and 1,000 tons of manufactured twine.

In the case of metals, as was stated in the Press, Irish Steel, Ltd., has restarted the mill at Haulbowline and they are utilising supplies of steel billets which were procured some time ago. The steel produced has been allocated for the production of agricultural machinery, horse shoes, nails, bolts and nuts. The production from the imported billets is limited and it is not yet certain that it will prove possible to complete the furnaces for the smelting of scrap steel. Under the most favourable circumstances these furnaces could not be completed before October next.

The position regarding paper supplies has become increasingly difficult. The total supply of paper of all kinds, exclusive of newsprint, is about 16 per cent. of the normal supply. For newsprint we are dependent on what it is possible to transport in our own ships, and this quantity is so limited that strict control of its consumption has to be maintained. That control is maintained by the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Deputies may have some difficulty in distinguishing between the functions of the Department of Supplies and the Department of Industry and Commerce. The Department of Supplies is responsible for all efforts to obtain supplies, and it controls the distribution of what are known as consumption goods. Generally speaking, the allocation amongst manufacturers of industrial raw materials is undertaken by the Department of Industry and Commerce.

With regard to barytes, are there no supplies of this commodity derivable from Ben Bulben, in County Sligo?

I was talking of pyrites, not barytes. Pyrites make sulphuric acid. Deputies may, during the course of this discussion, desire to raise a number of points in connection with the various schemes of rationing in operation. A matter that has assumed considerable importance latterly is the practice of revoking retail trading licences, in the case of traders who have been convicted of offences under tea and sugar rationing Orders, or under price control Orders. In justification for that course, I should say that experience since the outbreak of the war has shown that full compliance with these Orders cannot be secured unless stern measures are taken against traders who have been guilty of irregularities under them. The extent to which traders have attempted to disregard their obligations under these Orders can be gauged from the fact that legal proceedings have been, or are being, instituted in 1,114 cases to date. These cases represent, as Deputies know, only a fraction of the offences actually committed, but which escaped detection. Unless traders realise, or are made to realise, that non-compliance with their legal obligations will involve a continuing penalty, it will be impossible to get the various rationing and price control regulations adequately observed. It is for that reason that the practice of withdrawing licences from convicted offenders has been adopted. It is well that traders should know that convictions for rationing irregularities, or for overcharging for price controlled goods carries, apart from the penalties which may be inflicted by the courts, the added penalty of being put out of trade in the commodities concerned for the duration of the war. That is, in my opinion, a necessary safeguard for the public who should not be left dependent for their supplies on traders who have already shown an inclination to disregard the law. Up to date, 32 traders in tea and sugar have been deprived of their licences, and the number is likely to be increased considerably during the present year. Where traders' licences are withdrawn arrangements are made for the transfer of the traders' customers to other local suppliers.

No doubt we will have a discussion upon the efficacy of the Department's measures for price control. During the past year, 98 prices Orders were made, of which 85 were Orders supplementary to, or in substitution of existing Orders, and 15 were new Orders bringing the price of additional commodities under control. The retail prices of 57 commodities of general consumption are at present fixed by Order. The operation of the price control arrangements goes much further, however, than the fixation of maximum retail prices. Price control covers the prices of all manufacturers and producers, and, in the case of certain important commodities, the prices of importers and wholesalers also. The changing circumstances of the times necessitate frequent revision of the measures in force.

During the past year, 861 statements of financial accounts, covering the trading of 553 firms, were investigated, and, where necessary, limitations upon the gross profits or on the profit margins of the firms concerned, were arranged. Heretofore, the prices of certain important commodities have remained uncontrolled to the extent that fixed maximum retail prices have not been established, due to the complexity of the trading arrangements involved, or the wide variety of the goods concerned, which made control by price maximum Orders either impracticable or ineffective. I refer to such goods as fresh meats, vegetables and clothing. Circumstances are forcing action now to control prices, or to limit traders' margins in these goods, and while it is recognised that such control must involve the alteration of trading methods, or a degree of interference with normal commercial arrangements heretofore deemed undesirable, it is now becoming necessary in the public interest, no matter how distasteful it is to the interests concerned.

In the case of fresh meats, it will be recognised that effective price control must begin with the live animal and include the regulation of sales, and, particularly, the regulation of exports which the majority of the Dáil would, in all probability, strongly object to. Up to the present, retail meat prices have been regulated in the Dublin area by arrangement with the victuallers' association, but the prices operative in the city would not apply in the circumstances to other areas. The prices of fresh meats have always varied from district to district, and for that reason it is doubtful if any form of general control is desirable because it would probably result in prices rising in some districts higher than they otherwise would, even if the Dáil were prepared to face the regulation and disposal of live animals which would be involved.

Somewhat similar considerations apply in the case of vegetables, although it is now found necessary to fix a maximum price for potatoes. The required measure to that end is at present being prepared. In the case of clothing, control is at present confined to the regulation of manufacturers' prices, and to a general review of distribution charges. For some time past, however, it has become obvious that a far more extensive form of control is necessary, and so the Department of Supplies has been working out, in consultation with the trade interests concerned, a scheme of price fixation for essential articles of clothing. It is now considered that it will be possible to devise arrangements to that end which will work, and the necessary Orders will, I trust, be made effective in the near future.

Included in the price control activities of the Department is direct action against what we may call black marketeers. Where persons are suspected of having large quantities of goods in their possession for the purpose of exploiting their scarcity value, Orders have been made prohibiting the sale or the movement of such goods, and if the suspicions, on investigation, are found to be justified, these persons are required to dispose of the goods to designated traders at a fixed price. There were a large number of prosecutions for charging prices in excess of those fixed by Order during the year. The precise figures cannot be given because a number of these prosecutions were taken at the instance of members of the Gárdaí as well as at the instance of officers of the Department of Supplies. In a considerable number of cases, the courts have imposed sentences of imprisonment on the persons convicted.

That concludes the general review which I propose to make now of our general position and of the Department's activities. I request Deputies, however, when discussing the work of the Department of Supplies to keep in mind that, due to causes which are entirely outside our control, we are now getting 25 per cent. of our requirements in tea, no margarine, about 20 per cent. of our needs of petrol, less than 50 per cent. of our requirements of paraffin, 16 per cent. of our normal consumption of gas-coal and no domestic coal, 10 per cent. of our normal needs of cotton goods and a total textile supply equal to 22 per cent. of our requirements in linen yarns and in silk yarns, and that a similar story can be told in respect of every other commodity previously imported or which was produced here by or with the aid of imported materials. It is only by efficient organisation and control of supply that, in such circumstances, complete economic collapse was avoided and, when Deputies are addressing themselves to the hardships which have been occasioned by the scarcity of some supplies, I ask them to look around the country, to consider the situation existing in the country in relation to these drastic cuts in our available supplies of goods, all of which were previously considered essential to the conduct of industry and commerce here, and I think that in fairness they will agree that, whatever defects there may have been in the Department's organisation or plans, it can be justly claimed on its behalf that it has served this country well enough during these difficult years since the beginning of the war.

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. I do so not because I want to draw attention to anything that the Minister has not control over. My criticism will be directed to certain matters that he has complete control over and that, in dealing with certain matters, they could be more satisfactorily and effectively settled if he would accept consultation with the organised traders or groups of commercial people which exist in the country. It seems to me from time to time, and particularly just at present, that the Department of Supplies when dealing with the ordinary organisation of the country is like a small boy without very much intelligence and with little feeling driving a donkey—an odd whack and an odd chuck and an odd dig of the heel. The result is that the driving or the co-operation is not of a very satisfactory kind. The Minister referred to the fact, in connection with the withdrawal of licences for the sale of tea or sugar, that it was necessary to take very stern measures in order to safeguard the public against traders who had misconducted themselves, traders who had already shown an inclination to disregard the law. If a situation like that arises or tends to arise, I think it is the trading machinery in the country upon which we must depend for the faithful and best distribution of the goods we have in the country. We must depend upon them for co-operation with the Department—and I think they are very ready to give it—for an understanding of the Department's difficulties, and for giving to the Department that assistance without which the Department cannot overcome its difficulties.

I asked the Minister the other day how many licences had been withdrawn in the City and County of Dublin since 1st January, 1942, in connection with any kind of offence under prices Orders in the sale of tea or sugar. The answer given to me on the 8th April was that four such licences had been withdrawn in the City and County of Dublin since 1st January, 1942. The first case that occurred was on the 7th May, the next on the 16th September, the third on the 16th February, and the fourth on the 16th February. Now we find that a whole sheaf of notices has gone out to people in the city and, apparently, in the country and that licences are to be withdrawn from a large number of people. In connection with the move that is now on representations have, I understand, been made to the Minister by the Retail Grocers' and Allied Retailers' Association and that an offer has been made to the Minister to assist him in every possible way to overcome offences of this particular kind. He was asked to receive representatives on their behalf when certain proposals would be made to him and I understand that he would not agree to receive them. However, the association have represented to the Minister the various difficulties of traders in connection with these sales where a large number of commodities have to be dealt with, a very large number of assistants have to bear responsibility in the matter and mistakes are likely to occur.

They have asked (1) that the Minister will not step in and add punishment additional to the punishment inflicted by the courts until at least one or two endorsements have been made on a trader's licence by the courts; that at least he would pay attention before taking subsequent action on his own behalf to the comments of the justice dealing with the matter; (2) that he would set up an appeal body, consisting of representatives of the Department and of the association which would review the Minister's proposal to take away a licence before the actual licence would be taken away; (3) that in cases in which threats have been made to withdraw licences or in cases in which licences have been withdrawn the persons affected will have a chance of going before the appeal body and having the circumstances of the case heard; that in case of prosecutions traders would not be convicted for overcharging except a receipt was produced, because in controlling the sale at appropriate prices of a large number of detailed items, we might expect that the public would assist in the matter and where anybody felt that he was being overcharged, that he would assist in keeping things right by asking for a receipt, particularly in view of the fact that it is very easy at a particular time to make a mistake.

In present circumstances, no one wants to make a case for leniency towards people who are deliberately adding to the public danger and who are attempting deliberately to make substantial profits out of the present public distress. But, in some of the cases which have already been heard, I think the procedure has been rather absurd. Let us take the four cases about which the Minister gave me particulars on the 8th April last. In the first case, six months passed between the date of the offence and the date on which the case was brought to court, and two months passed between the decision in the court and the withdrawal of the licence. In the second case, four months passed between the date of the offence and the date of the prosecution and six months between the date of the prosecution and the date upon which the licence was withdrawn. In the third case, eight months passed between the date of the offence and the date upon which the case was brought to court, and seven months between the date upon which the matter was tried in court and the withdrawal of the licence. In the fourth case, six months passed between the date of the offence and the date of the prosecution, and four months between the date of the prosecution and the date of the withdrawal of the licence. Between the date of the conviction and the date of the withdrawal of the licence, there was an interval of two months in one case, six months in another, seven months in another, and four months in another, in the only four cases in the City and County of Dublin where the licence was withdrawn by the 8th April, 1943. What conviction can be brought by that kind of procedure as to the policy the Minister intends to pursue? In some of these cases substantial fines were imposed. Take one case: a pot of marmalade was sold for 1/8 on the 4th May, 1942, when the controlled price was 1/2. It was a special case. There were very extenuating circumstances in connection with the matter, but there was an overcharge of 6d. and there was no receipt given. Six months later, the trader whose assistant sold that pot of marmalade, and sold it under very considerable pressure by the purchaser, was fined £25 for the overcharge and £20 for failure to give a receipt. That is a substantial fine for an overcharge of 6d. even if that overcharge had been made most maliciously. But, after four months, to be deprived of a licence to sell tea and sugar when we consider the importance of these items to the trader and the small quantity of important goods available at the moment, is a shockingly big punishment. If it had been done the following day, it ought to have been done in connection with a publicly declared policy, but it is done four months afterwards and there is really no explanation of it. If it is necessary to pursue such a policy, then it ought to be a declared policy. Some of the cases are astonishing and they require a very definite explanation, I would say, to the House and I think they make a very strong case for the setting up of an appeal body.

There is one case—and I think it is no harm to mention the name—Messrs. Stanley and Company, of Ballybrack. The records were examined for the first time in April, 1942, by an official of the Department and it was found that no record was being kept of the cocoa sold. It was also found that 39 lbs. of tea had been sold which could not be accounted for. The trader was prosecuted in November, 1942, seven months afterwards. The trader was fined £5 for not keeping cocoa records, £4 in respect of not being able to account for 39 lbs. of tea. In April, 1943, four months after the prosecution, he is advised that his licence will be withdrawn as from the end of April. The books were examined in April, 1942; the prosecution was made in November, 1942, and, at the end of April, 1943, the licence is to be taken up, in spite of the fact that fines had been paid and that the judge before whom the case was brought said that the offence was of a trivial nature and that, since April, 1942, the establishment has never been inspected. There is a number of other cases, but I take that as an example of the slovenly, slow way in which certain action was taken. From the time this machinery of price control was started, in only four cases were licences removed and they were removed in the sluggish way I have indicated.

I submit to the Minister that the Department and its inspectors ought to know the difficulties under which retail people labour in keeping strictly to the letter of the price Orders that exist at the present moment. The multiplicity of things dealt with, the varying degrees of pressure and rush under which business is carried out, the different classes of persons and assistants that deal with the matter, all suggest a possibility of a margin of error. As far as I can see, there is no margin of error allowed for in a case like Stanley and Company or some of the other cases I have referred to. Consultation and agreement between the Ministry and the organised traders is necessary. It is particularly necessary if injustice and hardship and serious loss are not to be imposed on unfortunate and, practically, unoffending people by a Department. The direction of this particular matter has been very bad, and unless there is now satisfactory consultation between the Department and the traders, a very large and important section of the people who are trying to do their best and who have very manfully done their best up to the present will be in the position that they are dealing with a Department which has no sense of justice and no sense of an orderly approach to difficult problems.

The next matter is in regard to some of the clothing problems that the Minister touched on. A very remarkable omission from the Minister's statement with regard to clothing is the omission to state that within the last few days he has instructed the manufacturers of cotton piece goods that they are not to sell their goods without a distribution direction from the Ministry on the one hand and, apparently, a buying order on the other, and that he has indicated that after the 19th April, 1943, no piece goods of any description will be distributed by the cotton manufacturers in the country without distribution directions from him and that he has further indicated that one class of goods, heavy canvas and towelling, may be sold now through the ordinary channels of trade, that another class, consisting of saddlers' ticking, may be sold through the ordinary channels of trade up to the 2nd May, when further instructions will, apparently, be issued and that a large class consisting of shirting, dungaree cloth, lining and pocketing, will only be supplied to holders of buying permits when the Minister issues them and, in respect of a remaining class, cotton woven fabrics such as sheeting, calico and flannelette, other than shirting flannelette, the manufacturers understand from the Minister that these cannot be issued at all at the present time until the Minister issues further instructions. The position that will be brought about as a result of the Minister's action in this matter is that a very considerable amount of unemployment will be created amongst dressmakers, perhaps amongst drapers' assistants, and a large number of people, probably of the poorer classes, who make their garments at home from piece goods purchased from drapers will not be able to do so at all. It is a very remarkable thing that, although he discussed the position with regard to clothing, he made no reference at all to such an important action.

Apparently the intention is that such piece goods as are available will be kept entirely for the manufacturing industries which are making up garments. It is all the more remarkable that that should be done, in view of the fact that about a month ago there was a meeting at the Department of members of the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, of representatives of the making-up groups, and the matter was considered as to how certain shirtings and flannelettes manufactured in the country were to be distributed. It was agreed that 75 per cent. of the production here would be reserved for the makers-up and that 25 per cent. would remain for circulation to the retail trade. There was a plan for issuing buying permits to the makers-up, but in fact I understand that an agreement was come to between the manufacturers of the cotton woven fabrics and the shirt makers that, without the setting up of costly machinery by the Department to issue the various quotas to the makers-up, the making-up firms should get their proper quota by direct arrangement between the manufacturers of the woven cloth and the shirt makers.

However, without any further consultation with anybody, apparently, Orders have now been issued that the whole of the woven fabric is to be controlled in this way and is likely to go entirely to the makers-up. The drapers some time ago agreed with the Department that it would be advisable to have a register of drapers' shops made up, in order to help the Minister in controlling the circulation and distribution of these goods, but nothing has been done to make up such a register, and it does not appear that there is any machinery by which buying permits can be issued to drapers without a register.

The position with regard to drapers and dressmakers, and people who use piece goods, was made more difficult by the operations of the Department last year when the British Government or the British machinery was approached and asked to arrange that the goods which the British were prepared to supply would be supplied to this country in certain classes dictated by the Minister. That apparently was agreed to, and the result was that the ordinary trade lines were cut across. A change was made in the type of goods to be sent over here and some of the stuff which had been made and collected by British distributors for the Irish trade was then not permitted to come into the country. There was a gap due to the delay in making the newer goods which were required under the Minister's policy and, in fact, the drapers lost a considerable amount of piece goods as a result of the transactions at that time.

Under the arrangement the Minister made at that time, drapers were not able to import piece goods themselves, so that the drapers and the people who depend on them for the purchase of piece goods, either to carry on their business as dressmakers, or to carry on the making of clothes in their homes, have already suffered as a result of the operations of the Department. Now the position is that they are to suffer additionally.

There was no loss whatever as a result of the arrangement.

The Minister cannot but be aware that there was.

Not one yard.

The Minister knows quite well that there was. However, I am simply putting it to the Minister, from my understanding and knowledge of the situation, that the drapers did lose a certain amount of piece goods at that time, and, following the arrangement then made, the drapers are getting less piece goods than they would have got if the Minister's arrangement, preventing the drapers from getting piece goods into the country, was not made. Now he is apparently planning to prevent the drapers from getting the piece goods manufactured in the country.

It may be that the Minister wishes to keep the staffs of concerns which are making-up goods working, but has anything been done to equate the amount of employment that will be continued with the amount of employment which will be lost when rural dressmakers and dressmakers in the city are put out of employment, as a result of their not being able to get their goods and the hardship inflicted on poor people who will not be able to make up their own goods at home? The Minister is not only running the risk of creating greater unemployment, but of striking a blow at craftsmanship, and I think he is raising prices. Anybody who knows the kind of work carried out by individual dressmakers knows what a valuable craft is maintained in the highest perfection there— giving a very considerable amount of employment on the one hand, and doing a very high class work on the other, as well as substantially keeping down prices.

The matter was first raised, I understand, in connection with woollen cloths, and it was proposed to have a price permit arrangement in connection with them. If that is so, or if there is any proposal to deal with woollen cloths in this way, the Minister ought not to be silent about it. We expected that he would have told us what he was doing with regard to the control of piece goods manufactured in the country and their distribution, and what he proposes to do with regard to woollen goods. The line generally seems to be that if the Department can take a few sheets of paper and control everything on them, everything is grand, but, on the other hand, we have a statement in the leading article of the Irish Press to-day which shows that, in a matter in respect of which we might say the Government had complete control, they failed ignominiously to deal in a satisfactory way with the situation.

Last year, persons who wanted sugar for jam making could apply to the Department for the necessary permit to get the sugar, and we have the admission in that leading article—or the statement; I do not know whether the Department would admit the charge—that:

"This summer, no extra supply can be spared for household jam making, but that is largely due to the fact that last year the privilege granted was grossly abused. Thousands of people who had no intention of making jam practised a deception which secured to them sugar to which they were not entitled. This greedy minority is to blame"

...for anything that may happen now.

Here we have thousands of people, acting directly with the Department under all kinds of forms and certificates, and with the police and parish priests being brought in to certify to their good character, supposed to have got away with a substantial amount of sugar, with the result that now we are short of sugar. What we are concerned with is the proper distribution, at as low a price level as possible, of the materials that we have here, but both with regard to the grocers, whose hands must tremble every time they lift them to a shelf to-day, or to the drapers who feel that they ought to be consulted by the Department, they do not know where they stand. The drapers are half consulted in some matters by the Department, but then policies are adopted by the Department which, in the judgment of the most experienced men in the trade, are the wrong policies. The result is, as I have said, that these people do not know where they stand. They are all organised and prepared to serve the community in full co-operation with the Department, but the Department seems to be dealing with the matter in a way that can only create disturbance, confusion and general dislocation.

There is another matter to which I should like to refer. I do not know whether an Order has actually been made yet, but I understand that drapers are now instructed that where normally they would send in two coupons to the Department they now have to send in three coupons. Many of these people put a substantial amount of money into the getting of goods into this country, and but for them we would not have the satisfactory supplies position that the Minister speaks about. Surely, therefore, they should not be wronged now by making them surrender coupons in that way. If there is to be a surrender of coupons, I suggest that it ought to have some relation to the amount of goods held by drapers at present, as well as the amount of coupons, and that they should be credited with them. At the present time drapers have a substantial number of coupons which they are not able to surrender, as against the goods that they have, but as the supplies position improves, either before the end of this emergency or after it, I think that the people who helped us over the situation here by getting in supplies should not be prejudiced in respect of this matter of coupons.

The general feeling seems to be that both in the matter of distribution of goods and in the matter of prosecutions in regard to prices, the Department is looking for a scapegoat to cover mistakes made by the Department in the past or to cover the position which the Department boasted that it could control but has failed to control. Take the position with regard to the cost-of-living figures since the beginning of the war. The cost-of-living figure for all items in this country has risen by 57.7 per cent., since the beginning of the war, whereas on the British side the increase has only been 28.5. From August, 1939, up to February, 1943, there has been an increase here of 54 per cent. in the cost of food alone as compared with 20 per cent. in Britain. The most remarkable and disturbing fact, however, revealed by the change that has taken place here, as compared with Great Britain, since the beginning of the war until February, 1943, is that, on the basis of the cost-of-living figure of July, 1914, the figure here has risen, for all items, by 55 points whereas, in Britain, it has only risen by two points, and in the case of food the cost here has risen by 47 points, whereas in Britain it has fallen by two points. That shows that there has been a shocking rise in the cost of living here within the last two years, and I think that the approach the Minister is taking in regard to the prosecutions of grocers and so on is just a mere matter of looking for some kind of a scapegoat, so that the blame for the rise in the cost of living here might be attached, in the public mind, to traders generally, and to hide the fact that the blundering attempts that have been made by the Department to control the supply of drapery goods have only resulted in increased unemployment among important sections of the people here.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is the fact that there have been certain complaints about the price of such commodities as butter and tea. The average import price of all the tea that came into this country was 2/3 a lb., including customs duty. Now, 1/1 is allowed for the wholesale distribution of the tea, and 8d. is allowed for retail. It seems to me that more examination and a better explanation is required as to why 1/1 should be allowed for the wholesale distribution and only 8d. allowed for retail distribution. Comparatively recently, also, under an Emergency Powers Order, a margin of 2½d. a lb. was allowed on butter, but that has now been reduced to ld. I think that if traders generally are to be assured that their problems are being properly dealt with by the Department, some more explanation should be given to them with regard to such matters.

I move that this Estimate be referred back, Sir, on the grounds that neither the organised grocers who deal with the distribution of grocery goods nor the drapers nor manufacturers of textiles have any assurance that there is the necessary, satisfactory consultation and co-ordination that there should be in difficult times like these between them and the Department of Supplies.

The failure of the Minister's Department is largely due to the fact that the Department does too little too late. That Department is no longer regarded by the people in a serious light. It is no longer looked upon as an organised Department for the provision of essential goods and their equitable distribution. The Minister's Department is largely associated in the public mind as a Department of mopes and muddlers. If we stop for a moment to examine the origin of this Department, we will see that in 1938 a section to deal with supplies was set up in the Department of Industry and Commerce. At the outbreak of the war, the present fully-fledged Department of Supplies evolved from the nucleus that was set up in 1938 in the Department of Industry and Commerce. It was provided with a Minister, with a permanent Secretary, and so on, and followed the usual process of the Tite Barnacles in the Circumlocution Office, with secretaries to other secretaries, private secretaries to these, and private secretaries to private secretaries, and so on. I am sure that the people will learn with dismay that this Department is now costing approximately £3,000,000 a year.

Of which over £2,000,000 goes in food subsidies.

I did not interrupt the Minister, and I think he should wait until I have finished. The Chair has a habit here of describing members of the Opposition Parties, who stand up to ask a question of the Minister, as interrupting, and I think the Minister should not interrupt.

I am only trying to give the Deputy information.

I would ask the Minister to refrain from interrupting until I have finished, and then he can deal with my remarks when he is replying.

The Deputy must not make any reflections on the rulings of the Chair.

I am not making any implications against the rulings of the Chair. As I was pointing out, there are now over 800 officers employed by this Department, but not all of them enjoy such a high salary as the Minister. In fact, there are 321 persons employed in this Department who have only 19/- a week.

That is not correct.

The distribution of salaries and wages in this Department is something like the distribution of supplies throughout the country. One would expect that the Department would be very vigilant in respect of waste, but the fact is that the Department of Supplies uses hundreds of tons of paper, involving millions of forms and books. As a matter of fact, it has destroyed millions of these forms. A considerable number of them were destroyed when the Minister for Supplies announced the clothes rationing scheme and then had to beat a hasty retreat after the force of public opinion was brought to bear on his Department. The Department has definitely failed to get supplies. It is a fact that in the real Department of Supplies— that is to say, the black market —those who have the wherewithal can get what they want—food, clothing and materials for carrying on industry. Everything is there, provided you have sufficient money. That is the real Department of Supplies so far as the country is concerned and that Department had its foundation some years back when the Minister for Supplies urged those in the country who had money to lay in stores of goods, to hoard any goods that were available. Using almost his exact words shortly before the shortage, he said: "Store coal in your backyard and in your front garden, under the stairs, anywhere—but store coal." That was splendid advice.

But it was not given by me—in those words.

It was grand advice to the people in York Street, in Cuffe Street, or in Francis Street. The Minister knows the types of gardens these people have and how much money they had at that time to buy coal and put it under the stairs or in their back or front gardens. What is true of coal is equally true of tea, white flour and even ordinary soap and mustard. In the earlier years of the war the Minister was in the habit of giving assurances that there were ample supplies, more particularly in relation to tea and sugar. On numerous occasions he mentioned that we had ample supplies of these goods, and in 1940 he refused an import licence to a firm which had purchased large quantities of tea in the United States. The Minister frankly admitted that he would not issue the licence because he had made a bargain with our friends across the Channel. Later on, when something went wrong, the Minister was not slow to blame the British people for his failure here in so far as the provision of this particular commodity was concerned. Repeatedly the Minister explained the shortage on the ground that there was not sufficient shipping space. At the outbreak of the war the members of the Labour Party called on the Minister for Supplies and urged him to get in food and other essential commodities. When they advised him that ships would be necessary to transport these commodities, the intelligent observation that the Minister then had to make was: "What will we do with the ships after the war?"

That is a lie.

Some time afterwards the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures went even one better. Deputy Hickey was urging that ships should be got.

With what year is the Deputy dealing?

May I remind the Chair that the Minister dealt at considerable length with the activities of Irish Shipping, Ltd? I, therefore, claim the right to deal with the failure of the Department to provide the necessary ships. I am endeavouring to make the point that many of the shortages which now arise are due to the failure of the Minister properly to envisage the position. I think I am entitled to proceed on those lines, having regard to the Minister's statement. The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures went one better than the Minister for Supplies when, in reply to Deputy Hickey's argument in favour of purchasing ships, he said: "If all the damn ships were at the bottom of the sea and we used our brains, we would be better off." Subsequently the same Minister went to America and bought ships. It is rumoured in Dublin and in many other parts of the country that a number of the ships the property of Irish Shipping, Ltd., ships purchased by the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures, have not been lost by an act of war, but have been lost because of the fact that they were not seaworthy.

Only one was lost.

I mention that as just another example of bungling so far as this Department is concerned.

The Deputy will be glad to hear that all the others are still afloat.

A short time ago, replying to a question in relation to the butter shortage, the Minister explained that the shortage was due to an abnormally high consumption of butter. Even the Minister must be aware that not alone in Dublin, but in many parts of the country, butter is not available. The reason for this is largely due to the fact that as much as 7/6 a lb. is being paid by North of Ireland people, who take as much butter as they can lay hands on out of the country. It is also a fact, I understand, that considerable quantities of butter are being sent by rail to Belfast from Southern Ireland.

Does the Deputy know who sends it?

I think, having regard to the terrible hardships which the community in general has to suffer, that some steps ought to be taken by the Minister and his 800 officers to check up on these activities and see if something cannot be done about them. I need hardly point out to the Minister that a shortage of butter is very serious, especially so far as the health of children is concerned. In Dundalk and Ardee and that district school-going children have to do with dry bread. That will give rise later to a serious form of disease known as rickets. Already we have had a sufficient amount of malnutrition. In view of what I have just stated, the position in that respect is bound to grow worse, due to the muddling of this expensive Department of Supplies.

Last year I urged that a proper attempt should be made by the State to organise the collection of scrap metal, the material which is most largely used in the manufacture of producer plants for motor cars. I suggested then, and repeat now, that the long distance buses ought to be provided with these plants. I do not say there is plenty of this scrap metal in the country, but whatever of it is there should be collected and saved from the black market. If that were done there could be a considerable development in the manufacture of these producer plants. It is a pity to see so many of them being used on vehicles that are not engaged on work which could, even by the wildest stretch of the imagination, be described as of national importance. What happened was that shortly before the Order dealing with them was made, a tip was broadcast that people who bought cars with producer plants would be permitted to use them during the emergency. There was one particular firm in Dublin, doing a lucrative trade in these plants, and it was able to give that advice to its customers. The result is that quite a number of these cars are in commission.

Likewise in regard to clothes. Almost everybody could tell you six months before the Order was made that the austerity suits were coming. The result has been that old bachelors, with plenty of money, have provided themselves with 12 or 14 suits, more, in fact, than they will ever live to wear out. That kind of thing has been going on practically all the time. The Minister, who has a very agile mind, uses the opportunity which the radio and this House sometimes provide for him of making some kind of sensational statement in order to try to divert the attention of the people in general from the failures of his Department and of the discomforts they are thereby suffering. The Minister announced to-day that in a short time we are not likely to have any more petrol. I do not know. That may be so, but up to the present the Minister's prophecies have been like his election promises—largely false. However, we shall see what will happen. I pointed out earlier the considerable waste there is so far as paper supplies are concerned. I suggested that the waste was largely brought about by the destruction of millions of forms relating to rationing and so on.

On this Estimate, I want to draw the Minister's attention to something which has been brought to his notice on a few other occasions lately. I think that the Minister, even at this late stage, might mend his hand with regard to the unfair discrimination that is being used by him against the Kilkenny People in the matter of withholding from that paper the publication of Orders and advertisements relating to his Department. This is a clear example of political discrimination being used against a paper for no other reason than that the Minister does not like the tone of its articles. We had alongside with that the example of a paper in Dundalk which has a negligible circulation but which has something a little more important, a colleague of the Minister's on its board of directors. I do not think that it is too late, even at this stage, for the Minister to mend his hand in relation to the unfair attitude of his Department towards the Kilkenny People. I hope that we will hear from other speakers in this debate a reference to this particular matter.

As I said earlier the shortage of many essential commodities and of many foodstuffs is not so much due to the war situation as to the failure of the Department to plan and take precautions to guard against that situation. The Minister now states that our transport services are in a critical condition. The future outlook is, in fact, not only bad but alarming. Here again we have a serious situation created by the lack of foresight of the Minister. Round about 1940, after the retreat from Dunkirk, the Great Southern Railways Company was offered 1,000,000 tons of coal at 20/- per ton. The company was not in a financial position to purchase that quantity of coal. It applied to the Government for assistance, and it was turned down. That is a glaring example. Had the Government taken proper steps in regard to coal supplies as in other matters, it could have provided this country against a dislocation of its transport services for a period of at least five years.

As to the point made by the Minister with regard to the revocation of licences held by people who have been fined for profiteering, many people believe that the Minister, who has discretionary powers in the matter, is discriminating against certain traders. Nobody will find fault with the Minister for taking the most drastic and rigorous steps to protect the community against the activities of profiteers and the black market. At the same time, there would be much wider satisfaction if, in dealing with a case, the Minister would act on the recommendation of the district justice who tried such a case as to whether he should revoke the licence or not. I fail to understand the Minister's difficulties in the matter. A very good case can be put forward on behalf of a trader that he had made a mistake and that there was no desire on his part to defraud and a great deal of evidence can be brought forward in support of such a contention. Therefore, I suggest to the Minister that, if an impartial recommendation were to come from the court in a particular case, he would be in a much better position to decide the matter.

There is no doubt that the Minister has a very big and a difficult task at present in dealing with supplies. The question of foodstuffs probably touches the community most at the moment, and perhaps it would be only right to refer to some of the actions taken against retail grocers. In Dublin and district I understand that there are over 2,000 people engaged in that trade and, when the rest of the country is taken into consideration, the number would be very much higher. There is no doubt that in dealing with such a number of people as that and with the items they have to supply the public with there is a very wide margin both for justifiable mistakes and, possibly, unjustifiable mistakes. There has been a sort of committee formed from members of this House and the Seanad and some people representing the trade. I understand that the Minister is prepared to receive sympathetically representations made by that body. These people are not trying to defend black sheep in the trade, any more than the traders themselves are. But, certainly where a licence is revoked by the Minister, it only ought to be for what I would describe as an aggravated offence. Where there is an error of omission, there ought to be some consideration given before a person is deprived of his licence. Each case would have to be discussed on its merits. I think that across the floor of this House would be a very unsatisfactory way of discussing the pros and cons of an individual trader's case, the punishment meted out, or what was to be done to others who committed a similar offence. Therefore, if the Minister is prepared to receive the deputation I have mentioned, I think that is the most satisfactory way of dealing with the matter.

There is the old difficulty in discussing the Department of Supplies and the Department of Industry and Commerce. The Minister towards the conclusion of his speech gave us a very brief summary of what he considered the duty of the Department of Supplies. I take it that the post-war situation falls under the heading of the Department of Industry and Commerce. In a matter such as supplies one has a very big field, and I only propose to deal with one item, namely turf. I think the Minister said the price of turf in Dublin was 64/6, or that it was one of the prices, and that the subsidy was 23/6 per ton. Some Deputy asked did that make the cost of turf 88/-, and I understood the Minister to agree. I take it that in that 23/6 per ton subsidy is included the £280,000 Supplementary Estimate that we heard of at the opening of the Dáil to-day under sub-head G. I do not know whether sub-head K (1)—£522,000 —is included. I hope the Minister will clear up that point. I include sub-head K (1) as part of the cost of the scheme of getting out turf, and that would bring the cost up by another £1 per ton. Would it be too much to ask the Minister if the sum under sub-head K (1) is included in the 23/6 mentioned by him?

The 23/6 is the total sum for turf sold by Fuel Importers, Ltd.

Does that include the sum under sub-head K (1)?

Grants which are made to the Turf Development Board for the acquisition of sites and the building of camps are independent of this.

That is what I understood. My argument is that that puts practically another £1 per ton on the cost of turf.

We will call it £1. You can put me up to 23/- if you like. What I am getting at is that the acquisition of sites really ought to be part of the cost of getting out the turf. I make the Minister a present of the argument, if he makes it, that the cost of the pure turf was only 88/-. But this puts another £1 a ton on it, which brings the cost of the turf to the State to £5 a ton. In other words, the turf is being sold to the people at £3, and it is costing the country £5.

It has been calculated 2¼ tons of turf are equivalent of 1 ton of coal. If you multiply £5 by 2¼ you get over £11. In other words, if you could get coal at £11 a ton it would be equal to 2¼ tons of turf at £5 a ton. Of course, the Minister may say that he has done his best to get coal; that he has done his best to come to an arrangement with our friends across the water and that he cannot get coal, that it is not there. I do not know if it has escaped the Minister's attention that, during the present crisis on the other side, coal is treated so as to extract certain essential ingredients and a product is left which is practically as good as the original coal. It seems to me impossible of belief that some greater supply could not be got of, at any rate, that material from the other side.

There is another matter to which I would like to direct the Minister's attention—and I do so in all sincerity. Practically every grate or boiler is designed for fuel of a certain kind. It works economically on that fuel and it works uneconomically on any other fuel. In other words, coal grates are not satisfactory for turf and turf or wood grates or boilers simply swallow coal. That means that at the present time, although there is a border-line, and certain receptacles will burn almost any fuel with some efficiency— broadly speaking, you must have a boiler or grate designed for the particular fuel which you burn in it. If the figures that I have given are any guide, it means that in the post-war period, as soon as coal is available again, people will cease to burn turf. Has the Minister looked at the end of the road and considered where all this turf-development is leading to, if we cannot continue it in the post-war period and if the figures I have quoted are correct?

The Minister said, and we all know, that the country is desperately short of petrol. For a long period, five-ton lorries used to come up from the West of Ireland driven by petrol and loaded with turf. I think that has more or less stopped now, but I do not know how it was economical. Certainly that system could not be stopped soon enough. I would ask the Minister, when replying, to give us some idea as to where we are going in the production of turf and what we hope to achieve by it.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister's speech was somewhat of a mixed grill. Some portion was digestible, other portions indigestible and it was flavoured with appetising sauces. He commenced by telling us that the flour position was good and will improve. He said the sugar position will improve and that the butter position will be eased. We must tender to him our congratulations in regard to those three matters. We are all glad to know that the sugar position will improve and that the butter situation will be eased. Our hopes were somewhat shattered, however, when he came to the tea question and told us that the tea position was serious and that if he could keep up our present supply he would be fairly lucky. I had earnestly hoped that he personally would have gone to England and asked those who purchase our supplies to give us a little extra supply. I understand the people across the water still get two ounces of tea per person. If the Minister could keep our supply even at one ounce per person it would be something to be grateful for. I had hoped that he might be able to give us a two-ounce ration. The Minister went on to say that the petrol position was rather —I think he used the word "alarming." He did not say "bristling with difficulties" but he went on on that line. He said Deputies in their constituencies should ask people not to use paraffin or candles unless in country districts where it was essential.

I agree with the Minister. I think that is very proper advice. It is only right that paraffin and candles should be kept for those who need them. But the Minister forgot to mention the Dublin tenements. Residents in some of the Dublin tenements, where there is neither gas nor electricity, were used to small paraffin oil lamps or candles. At the present moment there appears to be great difficulty about candles. I met people in the street within the last couple of days who were going around looking for candles. I earnestly hope that when the time comes for an allocation to be made the Minister will see that people living in tenement rooms or cottages that are not provided with gas or electricity will get some ration so that they will not be forced to travel the city looking for candles and paying a high price for them. The Minister also mentioned that gas-producer plants would be available for commercial vehicles. I appeal to the Minister to see that our transport company—the Dublin United Transport Company, formerly known as the Dublin United Tramways Company—which carries thousands of passengers to and from their employment every day, will get a fair share, to have regard to the passengers whom the company carry to and from their work in the city and county of Dublin, and to see that if a gas-producer plant quota is to be made available for others, the company will get a quota also. The Minister paid a tribute—a very proper tribute—to our shipping services.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
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