Unemployment Insurance Bill, 1943—Second Stage.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move that this Bill be read a Second Time. The purpose of this Bill is to amend Section 8 (4) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920, in respect of persons temporarily absent from the country during the emergency. The effect of Section 8 (4) of the Act is to disqualify any person from receiving unemployment insurance benefit in respect of whom no contributions have been paid during an insurance year. An insurance year is from the month of October in one year to the month of October in another. If a person has not any contribution paid to his credit in our fund here during a year, he is not entitled to receive unemployment insurance benefit until 12 additional contributions have been paid on his behalf. The effect of the amendment of the Act in the manner proposed here will be to ensure that any person who has temporarily left this country for employment elsewhere will on his return be entitled to draw such benefits as his previous contributions to the fund entitled him to receive. A change of that kind has already been made for the benefit of persons in the Army and for certain seamen employed upon ships, the registration of which has been changed from this country.

I am assuming that there will be no objection to this Bill, the purpose of which is to provide that persons who had been in regular employment here, which employment had been temporarily disturbed by the emergency, and who had, therefore, gone elsewhere to seek employment, will not on that account lose the benefit of the contributions paid for them in previous years in this country.

Mr. Byrne

It has been stated that there are upwards of 100,000 of our countrymen earning their living outside Éire. The Minister, I am glad, did not let it in on one ear and out on another when I first drew attention to the difficulties of these people and the injustice of putting people out of benefit because they left the country. So far as the Minister has gone, I believe this Bill will benefit some 50,000 people, but there are, I believe, another 50,000 who will not derive any benefits from the measure. The Bill that he now proposes is to continue in benefit for unemployment insurance those who left the country and who, when they left it, were in benefit. What I have in mind is that the first 5,000 or 10,000 who left the country to seek employment in Great Britain and Northern Ireland were completely out of benefit and had no stamps to their credit. I am anxious to know what is to become of these men should the emergency cease and should they come home. What are they entitled to? The Minister is not providing in this Bill for men who were completely out of benefit. He is providing continuation in benefit for those who had stamps to their credit when they left. The period during which they would be out of the country is to be overlooked. That is a very good proposal indeed and I would say the Minister has been wise and, possibly, has gone as far as the law will permit.

I handed in an amendment to-day which, I understand, I cannot move. I have the Ceann Comhairle's letter here stating reasons. The Ceann Comhairle says: "Your amendment seeks to qualify certain other persons for unemployment benefit although corresponding contributions have not been paid into the fund." The letter goes on to give other reasons. I believe the Government should be very gracious about this matter. They should pay into some fund money that would put in benefit those who will come home and be completely out of benefit here.

I think the Minister ought to find some way of going a step further. He has gone a good way to meet the point that I have been making here for many weeks past when I discovered what was happening in Great Britain and in Northern Ireland, namely, that 100,000 men from this country are now putting stamps on their cards that they will get no credit for. I still believe that a reciprocal arrangement could be made with the other Governments, and that the Minister would find, if he tried, that something could be done in that direction. I would appeal to him not to leave the position as it is. I have been unable to move my amendment. It asked that a new class of persons who, before they left this State for employment elsewhere, were not eligible for unemployment benefit by reason of a lack of contributions, should, on their return here, be deemed to be eligible for unemployment benefit for a period not exceeding 26 weeks. I was giving them 26 weeks to get into benefit, and had hoped that I would have found some way of getting that new section inserted. I now understand that it cannot be done. The only thing left to me is to make an appeal to the Minister to give the matter further consideration, and see if he can include them by some means other than the amendment I had intended to propose.

Mr. Lemass

I am afraid I cannot support Deputy Byrne's claim to the credit for the introduction of this Bill. I am not aware, in fact, he suggested it. Legislation of this kind was enacted previously for the benefit of other insured workers who were temporarily out of insurable employment by reason of enlistment in the Army and certain other circumstances. The decision to introduce this Bill, which cannot have much effect until the termination of the emergency, followed certain discussions which I had some time ago with the Dublin Trades Union Council. I would not approve, in fact I would very strongly oppose, any proposal to assist out of the Unemployment Insurance Fund persons who are not contributors to that fund. That fund is the property of the workers who subscribe to it. To give assistance from that fund to any other class of workers would be an injustice to those who built it up by their contributions, apart from the obvious undesirability of giving to workers who have gone to Great Britain or elsewhere for the purpose of obtaining employment terms and conditions far more favourable than we are giving to workers who have joined the Irish Army. The increased contributions which would be necessary from workers in insurable employment in this country in order to make good the extra outgoings from the fund would, I think, be bitterly resented by those workers, and would, in any circumstances, be unjustifiable.

When the post-war problems come to be faced, I think Deputies may be assured that the arrangements made to deal with them will be adequate, having regard to our resources. If it is possible to secure an arrangement with the British Government by which workers of Irish nationality employed in Great Britain, and now contributing to the British Unemployment Fund, will get the benefit of those contributions when they return to this country, the Government will be very glad. Unfortunately, an arrangement of that kind has not been possible up to the present, but we have been given to understand that the situation is under consideration by the appropriate British authorities, although, as yet, no indication has been given as to what the outcome of that consideration may be. However, the proposal here deals only with a limited class of workers, numbering far less than 50,000 workers, who had contributions to their credit under our unemployment schemes and who might be debarred from benefit from these contributions when unemployed in this country by reason of a break in their insurability, due to their absence in Great Britain. It is only in relation to that class of workers this Bill deals. The problem of other unemployed workers either now or at the end of the war will have to be considered separately.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered: That the Committee Stage be taken to-morrow.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 12 May 1943