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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 May 1943

Vol. 90 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Reformatory and Industrial Schools.

Tairgím:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £62,494 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1944, chun Costaisí i dtaobh Scoileanna Ceartúcháin agus Saothair, ar a n-áirmhítear Aiteanna Coinneála (8 Edw. 7, c. 67; Uimh. 17 de 1926; Uimh. 12 de 1941, etc.).

That a sum, not exceeding £62,494, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for Expenses in connection with Reformatory and Industrial Schools, including Places of Detention (8 Edw. 7, c. 67; No. 17 of 1936; No. 12 of 1941, etc.).

I should like to hear from the Minister a specific statement as to whether he is now satisfied that the accommodation at Daingean Reformatory is as near the ideal for the purpose for which it is intended as we can hope to get it. This is a topic on which I have dwelt repeatedly on previous occasions, and I am glad to say that representations did succeed in closing down the wholly unsuitable premises in Glencree and that the Minister decided to transfer these boys to Daingean. I have never seen Daingean and I do not know what the accommodation is like there, but I should be interested to hear what the Minister's opinion is and grateful if he would say whether Deputies will have his approval, subject to the approval of the Superior of the institution, in visiting the institution if opportunity should offer.

We have frequently discussed here the special conditions of reformatory and industrial school teachers, and it has often struck me as odd that there should be any distinction at all between the qualifications required for the teachers who teach in industrial and reformatory schools and those who teach in the national schools. I understand that the obligation of the State is that, if circumstances require the State to remove a juvenile from its family surroundings, the State will afford to that juvenile the nearest approach which it can provide to the amenities which it would enjoy had its family life not been disrupted. The inmates of this reformatory institution are all boys between the ages of 14 and 17, or they enter the institution between those ages, and surely we ought to provide for them exactly the same standard of education as these children would enjoy if they were subject to the conditions of the Compulsory School Attendance Act.

It is true that if they were outside the school and over 14 years of age, that Act would not apply, but in that event they would be embarking on some kind of career. They would be starting as page boys in hotels, as messenger boys, as apprentices in shops or something of the kind. Constrained as they are to live in the limited surroundings of the reformatory and handicapped as they inevitably will be as a result of the necessity of incarcerating them there, surely, instead of giving them any inferior kind of education, we should exert ourselves to give them the very best possible equipment we can to help them to overcome the handicap which, by their own folly, they brought on themselves. I should be glad to know if the Minister intends ultimately to provide in the reformatory either some kind of suitable secondary education for these boys or some kind of special technical education.

I appreciate fully, and no doubt the Minister will say it to me at some stage of this discussion, that all this would, of course, involve very severe expense. I think we ought to spend money to retrieve these children. If they are turned out from the reformatory unskilled labourers and reformatory boys at the same time, the handicap under which they start is almost insuperable.

I apprehend that certain Deputies may say: "If you go on improving conditions in the reformatory on this scale, instead of being a punishment, it will become a kind of privilege to get into the reformatory"; but I am not sure that that is not the right approach. It does not matter how good we make the reformatory—no boy is going to clamour for admission to it. No parent wants to see his son educated in a reformatory. There is no danger that through making the reformatory a good educational establishment we shall be killed with applications for admission. It is the last place any child wants to go and the last place any parent wants to see his child sent to, and indeed, under the new dispensation, I am happy to notice it is the last place any judicial person in the country desires to send a child. They are sent there only as the last resort, when no other remedy will put them right, but once they get in there, surely none of us, the Minister included, is inspired by any vengeful desire to make the punishment fit the crime. Our sole purpose in putting them there is to get them back on the rails, to straighten them up and turn them into decent citizens.

With that in mind, we have continually to remember the heavy handicap which incarceration there will mean for the rest of their lives, and we have to lean a bit backwards in giving them rather more than might be ordinarily demanded of a citizen of the State by way of free education in order that they will get a good start the minute they come out. I do not think the standard of technical education provided in the reformatory is of a very high grade, and I do not suppose that the fees received by the Order responsible for receiving these boys are sufficient to permit of the employment of a very elaborate staff to provide the education we might desire them to have. Could the Minister tell us whether, in his judgement, more generous treatment would produce better results, and, if that is his view, whether he thinks it will be possible to do something in that direction at a reasonably early date?

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that in some industrial schools there are a number of teachers of the ordinary school subjects who are redundant, or about to become redundant, and to ask whether an arrangement could not be made whereby these people could be put on a panel, or whether the existing panel arrangement in respect of ordinary national school teachers could be applied for their benefit. In a great many of these cases, the men are married with families and their prospects are not very bright. The Minister, I think, has already received particulars from me and from some others in respect of cases in the West of Ireland and I ask him to give his attention with a view to seeing whether he cannot do something in respect of them.

The teachers to whom Deputy Bartley referred are probably teachers whom the Department is not prepared to recognise as national teachers working in industrial schools. The Deputy will remember that we agreed to take these teachers of literary subjects in industrial schools and to put them on the same basis as ordinary national teachers as regards their remuneration, but, clearly, all teachers in these schools could not be accepted, not having the requisite qualifications.

I can assure the Deputy that it was not on the mere basis of academic attainments that the inspectors examined these teachers and considered the possibility of having them recognised. It was really on the basis of whether, having regard to their experience and their teaching capacity, as well as their general standard of qualification —that could not be ignored—they were in a position to teach the programme as laid down in the national schools. We have been trying to see that that programme is covered satisfactorily, and it is in most cases. Some of the schools are highly efficient. We have been trying to see that that programme would be taught, and that these pupils would receive precisely the same instruction from efficient teachers, as in the ordinary schools. Unfortunately, I do not think we can do anything for those whom, for one reason or another, the inspectors were not able to recommend for recognition.

The position is that boys coming into the Daingean Reformatory, or into the industrial schools, are often severely handicapped. When Deputies write letters to me asking for the release of boys either from the industrial schools or from the reformatory, in the case of the reformatory we consult the district justice, and we are guided a good deal by his advice as to whether or not the boy should be released. My own feeling is that if a boy could get secure employment and could have the support of the local clergy for the application for his release, the proposal should be examined sympathetically. But when cases are sent to the heads of the school for their observations, it is often found that these boys are very backward from the educational point of view. They start off at 11 years in the industrial schools, very often where ordinary children of eight or nine years would be; that means that these boys are two or three years behind. In the same way, those who go into the reformatory are generally 12 to 16 years, and they are also behind. They probably would not find themselves in the reformatory if the home conditions were suitable. Generally speaking, bad home conditions and neglect are the cause of the trouble.

I do not know if Deputy Dillon will agree with me when I say that we are not to blame these young people altogether. I feel that the parents very often ought to be punished. I do not know whether or not the Deputy will agree with that.

Substantially.

In this reformatory things are considerably improved. A good deal of additional accommodation has been provided. I spoke to the boys when I last visited the place—that was about a year ago—and they all expressed satisfaction with the condition of affairs there. They would rather be out of it, of course, but, having regard to circumstances, they know—and this is one result, anyway, of putting them there—that they have done some things against the community and that the community has had to take action against them; they realise that clearly. We pay the reformatories and the industrial schools on the basis of certain State grants to provide the instruction.

In the case of literary subjects, in the ordinary industrial schools we are trying to bring them up to the same level as outside, and that level has been attained, I believe, in the vast majority of cases. In the case of trade instruction, it is in the hands of competent tradesmen. These tradesmen may not always be the best as teachers. The trouble is that you may get an excellent man as teacher, but, if he has not a knowledge of the craft or trade, his work is liable to be unsatisfactory.

The same position holds in the reformatory, except that the material is more difficult. You do not get the boys at the most malleable stage. Some of them are advanced, up to 16 years, and if they are lacking in the rudiments of education, as they often are, our attention has to be given to that. The inspectors of the primary branch have visited the reformatory and, in common with the industrial schools, they have laid down special courses. I think they have laid down special courses in Daingean on the literary side. The inspectors from the technical instruction branch also visited the institution and they laid down courses on the practical side. It will take some time to have the same standard of practical instruction as one would meet with outside, in technical schools, for example. I doubt if that position can be attained for some time, but I can assure the Deputy we are working towards it, and we hope eventually we will reach that standard.

Of course, the material is not as good and the heads of the schools first have to civilise, almost, a good many of these boys who have gone completely from control. It is not at all easy to get them to settle down at that stage, when they have left the ordinary school behind them; it is not easy to get them to apply themselves to learning. I agree thoroughly with the Deputy that if we can develop practical instruction further and get the co-operation of the schools in securing a better standard, it would be well worth while and would probably give these boys a better chance in future. I should like to say—I referred to the matter in my opening statement—that the whole question of juvenile employment will be considered shortly by a commission which the Minister for Industry and Commerce proposes to set up. That commission will examine the whole problem and, possibly, during the course of its investigations, it may be able to help in dealing with this problem of juvenile delinquency.

Can the Minister state whether it is a fact that male lay teachers in some of the industrial schools are prohibited by the rules of the schools from getting married? If this is a matter which comes within the scope of the Minister's Department, would he be prepared to intervene in order to have the disability removed? Clearly, a teacher who suffers from such a disadvantage cannot be very enthusiastic about remaining on at a school and giving that attention to the work which it requires. I cannot say for certain whether the rule is universal, but at least in some of the more important industrial schools the rule operates.

That is a matter for the school. Even in the ordinary national schools, as the Deputy knows, I cannot interfere with the discretion of the managers in appointing whatever teachers they wish. In the industrial schools, as they are entirely private institutions, run by the managers, I cannot interfere; it is entirely a domestic question. I do not know whether that is the position or not— that teachers who get married have to resign.

Will the Minister ascertain if what I have said is a fact?

I do not think it arises, or that it is a matter for me.

Vote put and agreed to.
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