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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 May 1943

Vol. 90 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

Tairgim:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £152,583 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1944, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta (9 & 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928), maraon le Deontaisí Áirithe i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £152,583 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 & 10 Geo. 5, c. 58, and No. 34 of 1928), including certain Grants-in-Aid."

Do réir mar atá an cogadh ag dul i bhfad, tá obair na foraoiseachta ag eirghe níos deacra. Síolta, oirnéisí agus abhair sconnsa, tá siad go léir ag eirghe níos deacra d'fháil. Do féachadh le líonradh miotal-shreinge d'fháil o Aimeiriceá; agus gidh go bhfuaireamar roinnt áirithe, níl fáil againn fá láthair ar chuid dá bhfuil ceannuithe againn cheana féin. Do rinneadh iarratas oifigiúil mar gheall ar sin, ach ní heol dúinn go fóill ciaca bhéas toradh ar an iarratas nó nach mbeidh. Níl aon chosúlacht ann go mb'fhéidir níos mó a cheannach, agus, mar sin de, caithfear tuilleadh laghduithe do dhéanamh ar na scéimeanna planntála go dtí go n-athruighidh an staid ina bhfuil an saoghal. Táthar ag déanamh díchill leis an laghdú sin do sheachaint chomh maith agus is féidir; ach ní bheadh ann ach ag cur airgid amú bheith ag gabháil do phlanntáil nach mbeadh a sáith de chosaint aici ar choiníní agus ar ainmhithe eile. Ar an abhar sin, caithfear teacht le planntáil na n-áiteach ar baineadh na crainn díobh le goirid agus a bhfuil sconnsaí ina dtimcheall cheana.

Gidh gur deacair síolta d'fháil, níl sin ag cur cúil ar an bplanntáil fá láthair, ach beidh faoi cheann dhá bhlian nó trí. Tá roinnt deacrachta ag baint le soláthar síolta Aimeireacánacha ar na gnáth-bhealaighe, ach táthar ag súil le oiread de bhuaidh d'fháil ar sin agus go bhfuighfear réasúntacht, ar a laghad, dá bhfuil ag teastáil ón Roinn.

Mórán de na bealaighe inar gnáthach síolta ón Eóraip d'fháil, tá siad dúnta fá láthair; ach táthar ag féachaint leis an easbaidh d'fháil as an Eilbhéis, as an bPortuingéil, nó as an Spáinn. Ina theannta sin, tá ullmhú déanta ag an Roinn chun níos mó síolta do bhailiú i gcoillte feiliúnacha de chuid na tíre seo. Ní féidir, ámhthach, sin do dhéanamh ach le cineálacha áirithe crann; agus ní gach bliain a thig síol ar na cineálacha sin féin. Rud eile, is éigean bheith cúramach agus gan síol do thógaint de chrainn atá mí-fholláin, nó mionda, nó mí-chumtha.

I gcomórtas leis an soláthar le haghaidh na bliadhna 1942-43, tá £42,771 de laghdú ar an meastachán seo. Baineann an laghdú le dhá chineál oibre: (1) tógaint nuadh-thalmhan, agus (2) leanúint don obair in áiteacha do bhí idir lámha againn cheana. Maidir leis an laghdú i geás nuadh-thalmhan, ní hionann é agus gur mian leis an Roinn níos lugha talmhan do ghlacadh ar láimh. Is amhlaidh atá deacracht níos mó ann ná mar do bhíodh maidir le talamh a mbaineann cearta coitcheanna inghilte léi; agus, ina theannta sin, tá Coimisiún na Talmhan ag stad go sealadach de thógaint eastát a mbeadh an Roinn Foraoiseachta ag súil le scaracha réasúnta díobh do theacht faoi n-a seilbh féin.

An fuigheall cuibheasach mór de airgead atá fágtha sa gCiste chun Talmhan do Thógaint agus an £30,000 atáthar d'iarraidh anois, is dócha gur leor iad le haghaidh gach íocaíochta dá mbeidh le déanamh sa mbliain airgeadais seo chugainn. Táthar ag tógaint oiread agus is féidir de thalamh sa gcaoi go mbeifear i ndon cuid mhór sa mbreis de phlanntáil do dhéanamh nuair a rachas an saoghal chun socrachta arís.

Ar iarratas na Roinne Soláthairtí, tá brainnse na Foraoiseachta tar éis tosnú ar áireamh do dhéanamh ar a bhfuil fágtha ina seasamh de chrainn sa tír, agus is éigean cuid mhaith de na Cigirí do choinneáil i mbun na hoibre sin. Gach giota de thalamh chrannach a bhfuil ós cionn dhá acra go leith ann, déanfar a scrúdú agus a rangú do réir cineáil, cáilíochta agus tiughais. Ina theannta sin, toghfar an oiread seo de bhailte fearainn chun a gcuid crann d'áireamh, agus, do réir an áirimh sin, measfar cadé an líon crann atá ar fud na tíre i gcoillíní, i bhfálta agus in ionaid scartha eile. Nuair a bhéas an t-áireamh go léir críochnuithe, beidh caoi ag an Riaghaltas a mheas cad is cóir a dhéanamh maidir le n-a thuilleadh toirmeasc do chur ar leagan agus ar dhíol crann, ionnas go gcoimeádfar lón le haghaidh na riachtanas is mó gádh don náisiún. Ní beag ná ní furas obair an áirimh sin go léir, agus cuireann sí cuid mhór de obair bhreise ar fhoirinn teicniceach na Foraoiseachta—go háirithe ós rud é go bhfuil ortha, san am chéanna, aire do thabhairt don líon an-mhór de Fhógraí Leagain atá ag teacht isteach go laethúil fá láthair. Cho fada agus is féidir é, tá an dá chineál sin oibre á ndéanamh i dteannta a chéile.

Maidir leis an soláthar atá riachtanach faoi na Fó-mhírchinn, do réir mar tá luaidhte sna meastacháin chlóbhuailte, séard is mian liom gan bacaint le mion-chuntas ach amháin i gcás na neithe a bhfuil difríocht cuibheasach mór idir iad féin agus na neithe bhí sa Vóta don bhliain 1942-43.

Fó-mhírcheann A. Tuarastail, Págh agus Allúntais—£22,829. An méadú atá faoi'n bhFó-mhírcheann seo, tá sé ag teastáil mar gheall ar thuilleadh fóirne le haghaidh an Áirimh atá luaidhte agam, agus, ina theannta sin, mar gheall ar an obair sa mbreis a bhaineas leis an leagan neamhghnáthach crann agus leis na scéimeanna chun adhmad teine do sholáthar do Fuel Importers agus do Bhárdas Bhaile Átha Cliath.

Fó-Mhírcheann B. Allúntais Taistil agus Bídh—£5,100. Is éigean soláthar sa mbreis do dhéanamh le haghaidh taistil, mar gheall ar mhéadú na bhfoireann agus an taisteal fá leith bhaineas le hobair an Áirimh.

Fó-mhírcheann C. Deóntas-i-gCabhair do Thógaint Talmhan— £30,000. Gidh gur vótáileadh £60,000 anuraidh, níltear ag iarraidh ach £30,000 i mbliana. Níor bhféidir dul ar aghaidh le ceannacht na n-eastát mór crannach do bhí beartuithe againn, bliain is an taca seo. Gheobhaimid na heastáit sin amach anseo; ach, idir an dá linn, is fearr leis na húnaeir a mbealach deighleála féin do bheith aca ar an méid de na crainn nach bhfuil riachtanach le haghaidh foscaidh nó síolruithe. Dá dheascaibh sin, do cuireadh ceannacht na n-eastát chun moille, agus laghdófar a gcéadphraghas tré luach na gcrann atá á mbaint díobh agus á ndíol. Meastar go mbeidh £48,000 de fhuigheall le tabhairt ar aghaidh go dtí an bhliain airgeadais seo chughainn, rud is ionann agus £78,000 do bheith ar fáil chun talamh do cheannacht sa mbliain sin. As an suim sin airgid, do coimeádfaí tuairim is £21,128 do cheannach 7,543 acra a bhfuil socair cheana féin ag an Roinn iad do cheannach ó n-a húnaeir, agus do coimeádfaí £17,763 mar phraghas talmhan is dócha do bheith le fáil ó Choimisiún na Talmhan. Ina theannta sin, táthar ar aghaidh go maith sa deighleáil bhaineas le 5,716 acra do cheannacht ó únaeir phríobháideacha ar chostas £21,144, agus táthar ag féachaint ar bhfhéidir socrú chun ceannachta do dhéanamh le Coimisiún na Talmhan i dtaobh 3,381, nó mar sin, de acraí a bhfuil £9,010 measta mar luach dóibh. Féadfa sé, dar ndóigh, go mbeifear ag pléidhe le tairgsiona eile, taobh amuigh díobh sin, sa mbliain atá romhainn. Cé's moite de bheagán de achair mhóra, níl 100 acra féin de mheadhon-achar sna píosaí atá á dtairgsint chun díola ag únaeir phríobháideacha; agus, mar gheall ar a leithéid sin, is obair fhadálach dheacair í talamh d'fháil sa geaoi go mbeadh sé ina phíosaí sáthach mór le foraoiseacht do dhéanamh gan an iomarca caiteachais.

Is mór ba mhian leis an Roinn seilbh d'fháil ar limistéir mhóra de thalamh sléibhe atá níos feiliúnaighe don bhforaoiseacht ná d'fhéarach ná a leithéid; ach tá cuid mhaith de na limistéir seo faoi ualach de chearta coitcheanna inghilte, agus is rídheacair—más féidir ar chor ar bith é —aontú d'fháil ó lucht na gceart sin go léir chun iad do dhíol ar shuim réasúnta airgid.

Fó-mhírcheann C.2 Obair Phlanntála, agus rl.—£152,651. An £56,630 de laghdú atá sa bhFó-mhírcheann seo, tá sé ann go príomhdha de bhrígh go bhfuil críochnú, beagnach, déanta ar an scéim do socruíodh leis an Roinn Soláthairtí chun adhmad teine do chur ar fáil do Fuel Importers. Tá laghdú, freisin, ar an meastachán le haghaidh oibrithe agus damhna, ar an abhar go mbeidh an phlanntáil níos lugha agus nach mbeidh oiread de dhamhna sconnsa le fáil. Sa séasúr atá ann fá láthair, táthar ag súil go gcríochnócfar 4,273 acraí. Is eagal liom nach mbeifear i ndon an oiread sin do dhéanamh sa séasúr seo chugainn; óir, mura bhfaghthar damhna sconnsa as Aimeiriceá, caithfear gan planntáil ar bith do dhéanamh ach amháin sna háiteacha ar baineadh na crainn díobh le goirid agus a bhfuil sconnsaí ina dtimcheall cheana. Dá réir sin, is cosúil nach fada go gcaithtear obair na planntála do laghdú tuilleadh. B'ionann sin agus cuid de na hoibrithe d'fhágáil díomhaoin, ach táthar ag ullmhú le n-a aghaidh sin, agus féachfar le obair do thabhairt dóibh ag tanú na n-óg-chrann, ag déanamh bóthar, agus ag leagan díogha na sean-chrann le n-a ndíol mar chonnadh sa gcomhursanacht. Is an-tairbheach an obair í tanú na n-óg-chrann, óir bíonn an choill i bhfad níos luachmhaire i ndeireadh báire dá dheascaibh. Táthar, fá láthair, ag tanú crann do planntáileadh so tréimhse 1922-27, nó mar sin— tuairim is 1,500 acra. Féadtar bheith ag súil go mbeadh ós cionn 2,500 acra den chineál sin ann faoi cheann chúig mblian eile, agus go mbeidh tuilleadh agus 3,500 acra ann faoi cheann deich mblian. Do réir mar fhásfas an obair seo, is cinnte go méadófar an obair bhaineas le díolacháin, agus le hullmhú na n-óg-chrann ina gconnadh agus ina stácaí sconnsa, agus rl. Is mór a rachas an chuid seo den bhforaoiseacht i méid faoi cheann tamaill eile de bhlianta. In éinfheacht léi, tiocfaidh saothar agus costas nach mbeidh baint aca leis an áireamh atá mar shlat tomhais ag a lán daoine ar an obair .i. áireamh an mhéid crann a planntáiltear in aghaidh na bliana.

Maidir leis na cineálacha crann a toghtar chun planntála, tá sin ag brath ar na cineálacha a bhíos ar fáil, ar oiriúnacht na talmhan a bhíos ar fáil le n-a n-aghaidh, agus, ina theannta sin, ar a luach nuair a bhéas siad ion-úsáidthe. Ní thig athrú mór ar bith, ó bhliain go bliain, ar an méid sa chéad a planntáiltear de gach cineál fá leith. Fá thuairim 88 per cent. a bhíos na crainn chírneacha. Crainn leathan-duilleacha an t-iarmhar—Dair, Fuinnseog agus Feagha sa mhór-chuid. Maidir leis na crainn chíríneacha, bíonn na Spriúsanna (Nor-bhuaidheach agus Sitka) fá thuairim 30 per cent.; bíonn na Learóga (Iartharach agus Seapánach) fá thuairim 20 per cent., agus Ciréis (Albanach sa bhfurmhór) an chuid eile. Usáidtear cuid mhaith Pinus Contorta, óir fuarthas amach gurbé is fearr a thig ar aghaidh i dtalamh atá an-árd agus bocht.

Fó-mhírcheann C3. Sábhadóireacht, agus rl.—£6,608. Baineann an soláthar seo le ceithre mhuileann sábhad-óireachta agus le deich geinn de oirnéisligh cros-sábhadórachta atá ionaistrithe. Séard a bhíos na muilte ag gearradh adhmaid le haghaidh na gceanntar ina bhfuil siad agus ag ullmhú stácaí agus geataí, agus rl., don Roinn féin. San am i láthair, tá oirnéisligh na cros-sábhadóireachta i gceanntair thall agus i bhfus agus iad ag ullmhú adhmaid teine as an gcuid is neamh-fhoghanta de na crainn.

Tá iarraidh bhuan ar na bluie seo, agus is maith an chabhair iad do mhuinntir na gceanntar ina bhfuiltear á n-ullmhú.

I dtréimhse an tsamhraidh agus an fhómhair seo caite, do cuireadh 12,000 tonna de adhmad teine ar fáil do Bhárdas Bhaile Átha Cliath, agus bluic a bhí sa mhór-chuid de sin. Do díoladh lóin bhloe in áiteacha eile, agus do rinneadh sin ar an mbealach dob fhairsinge do dhéanfadh na bluic do roinnt. Tá tuairim is 6,000 tonna díobh díolta cheana féin i gContae Chill Mhanntáin agus i gContae Loch gCarman.

I gceanntair chúil agus i gceanntair nach raibh ach beagán crann, freisin, do díoladh crainn leagtha agus crainn do bhí gan leagan féin le haghaidh adhmad teine. Do díoladh tuairim is 25,000 tonna ar an mbealach seo.

Fó-mhírcheann F3. Coláiste na hIolscoile, Baile Átha Cliath. Tá cóoibriú ar suibhal idir an Roinn agus Udaráis Choláiste na hIolscoile i mBaile Átha Cliath ag lorg eolais faoi mhion-fheithidí agus aicídeacha fungusacha a bhaineas le crainn foraoise. An £200 atá á iarraidh faoi'n bhFó-mhírcheann seo, táthar ag brath a íoc leis an gColáiste mar dheóntas-i-gcabhair don obair seo.

Fó-mhírcheann H. Deóntasi-i-Cabhair. Tá laghdú mór san ioncum atá measta don bhliadhain seo i gcompráid le 1942/43, agus isé is príomh-adhbhar dó sin nach mbeidh oiread de adhmad teine á chur ar fáil do Fuel Importers.

Táthar ag meas go mbeidh laghdú sna fáltais ó mhór-dhíolacháin ar bith crann atá ina seasamh. Do díoladh cuid mhór le cúpla bliain, ach tá an Roinn ag coinneáil lón áirithe adhmaid nach gcuirfear chun an mhargaidh ach nuair a bhéas géar-riachtanas náisiúnta leis agus nuair nach mbeidh a leithéid le fáil in áit ar bith eile. Táthar ag súil go mbeidh méadú i ndíolacháin áitiúla agus ins an gcíos ó thalamh inghilte agus ó thithe comhnaithe, agus rl.

Acht Foraoiseachta, 1928.—Do leagadh níos mó crann anuraidh ná mar do leagadh i mbliain ar bith eile, agus fuarthas 9,635 d'Fhógraí Leagain mar gheall ar thuairim is 900,000 crann. Tugtar freastal do na Fógraí seo cho tapaidh agus is féidir, ach tá oiread de obair sa mbreis le déanamh agus tá an taisteal cho deacair agus nach féidir moill áirithe do sheachaint i gcorr-chás. Thiocfadh leis an mhuintir ar leo na crainn cuidiú leis an Roinn agus leo féin mar an gcéanna, dá marcáladh siad go soléir na crainn a ba mhaith leo a leagan. Nuair a thig Cigire na Roinne, is minic a thárluigheas sé fá láthair nach mbíonn marcáil ar bith déanta ar na crainn atá le leagan agus nach mbíonn duine ar bith le fáil leis na crainn sin do thaisbeáint dó.

Ordú do cuireadh amach, ar iarratas ón Roinn Chosanta, go luath anuraidh, do thoirmisc sé, ach amháin i bhfochásanna áirithe, crainn ar bith a leagan taobh istigh de thriochaid troigh ó lár aon bhóthair mhóir nó bóithrín. Baineann riarú an Orduithe seo leis an Roinn Dlighidh agus Cirt, ach tá Brainnse na Foraoiseachta ag có-oibriú agus ag déanamh díchill nach dtugtar cead faoi'n Acht Foraoiseachta crann ar bith do leagan dá mbeadh faoi'n toirmeasc seo atá ráite agam. Chuir seo tuilleadh deacracht sa scéal, agus b'éigean cuid mhór litreach a chur amach leis an eolas d'fháil do bheadh riachtanach chun a chur in áirithe go ndéanfaí coingheallacha an Orduithe Eigeandála do chólíonadh. B'éigean, mar an gcéanna, a chuir in iúl d'iarrthóirí nach féidir saoirse d'fháil ó choingheallacha an Orduithe ón Roinn ar na tagraí a cuirtear ina láthair.

Na deacrachta céanna chuireas teorainn agus laghdú féin ar an bplanntáil ba mhian leis an Roinn a dhéanamh, tá siad ag cur bac áirithe ar an athphlanntáil is cóir a dhéanamh do réir choingheallacha na gceadúnas a fáightear, faoi'n Acht Foraoiseachta, chun crainn do leagan. Ní hé amháin nach bhfuil líonradh in aghaidh coinín le fáil ag únaeir na talmhan, ach níl lón sáthach mór de phlanntaí oiriúnacha ag gach dream díobh siúd a ghníos plantaí d'oiliúin le n-a ndíol. Mar sin de, is minic a b'éigean don Roinn aontú go gcuirfí ar gcúl a leithéid d'athphlanntáil. Ach tugtar rabhadh do lucht ceadúnas nach bhfuil an cur-ar-gcúl sin ach sealadach. Déanfar aithbhreathnú ar gach cás aca seo nuair a rachas an saoghal chun socrachta, agus cuirfear an dlí ar gach duine nach gcólíonfaidh na coingheallacha a bhaineas leis na ceadúnais a tugadh dóibh.

An t-eolas do fuarthas tré oibriú an Achta Foraoiseachta, 1928, taisbeánann sé nach bhfuil an tAcht gan laige, agus is dócha nach fada go n-iarrtar ar an Dáil aontú le feabhsú an dlí a bhaineas le hathfhoraoisiú agus le caomhnadh adhmad na tíre.

One can appreciate the difficulties under which the Forestry Department is labouring at the present time, and it would be unreasonable to expect that there could be during the emergency even a maintenance of the acreage planted in 1936, 1937 and 1938, not to speak of an expansion of the programme. Up to that time there was a slow but steady improvement in every year. At the present time with the amount of land devoted to forestry the shortage of essential materials, the difficulty of procuring seeds and in maintaining nursery stocks, of course it is a physical impossibility to have any expansion of the programme. Even if the trees were there, when we have not the necessary wire and fencing materials to keep out vermin and to prevent trespass, it would be ridiculous to plant without that necessary protection. As I said before, no one could reasonably expect any expansion of the forestry programme during the emergency or until the essential materials are again available in the post-war period. However, I would suggest to the Minister that that should not prevent the acquisition of whatever lands are suitable for the purposes of planting. There is no doubt that this country will have to face in the post-war period an acute problem of unemployment. Thousands of people have gone across to Great Britain during the past few years and the vast majority of them will, I suppose, inevitably return to this country during a period of difficulty and depression in the post-war years.

We should be making our plans now to carry us through a period of that kind. Here is an avenue opened up, if we had all the land that we could acquire at the present time available to carry out an extended planting programme in the post-war period. For that reason I would impress upon the Minister the desirability and necessity of acquiring to the fullest extent all the land it is possible to acquire in the interregnum between now and the post-war period. I am one of those who are not inclined to exaggerate the value of forestry or of a big scheme of afforestation for this country because I feel that we should not plant lands that are suitable for other purposes. Lands that are suitable for food production in any form should not in my opinion be planted; in other words, land on which men can live and maintain families should not be devoted to the production of timber. In the long run, no matter how attractive it may appear to some people from the national standpoint, the production of timber on such land will not prove more profitable.

There are just one or two questions I should like to ask the Minister. There is first the question of felling notices. I have got a number of complaints in the past year in regard to the delay in issuing felling licences. I can appreciate the difficulty with which the Department is confronted there. The number of inspectors the Minister has at his command is limited and there has been a huge increase in the volume of applications for permission to fell trees. Then there is the transport problem. All these factors tend to operate against the expeditious issue of licences, but in our difficult situation, with an acute shortage of commercial timber, it is desirable and essential that the issue of permits for the felling of timber to be used for commercial purposes should be expedited.

The Minister gave us some figures with regard to timber conversion, and mentioned the amount that is being turned out by the forestry section of his Department, particularly in firewood. He mentioned that 12,000 tons of firewood had been prepared mainly for the Dublin Corporation and Fuel Importers, Ltd., and he said that 6,000 tons had been handled in the counties Wicklow and Wexford by four fixed mills and ten portable crosscutting outfits. Does that mean that there are no circular saws in operation?

There are portable saws.

Are there no portable circular saws? However, it does not matter very much. The Minister does not give us any idea of the quantity of commercial timber handled during the year for conversion purposes. I think it is an opportune time to utilise to the fullest extent whatever mature timber we have. I think it is well to handle it at a time when it is at its maximum value. We should not hesitate to use that timber now that the market is favourable. We should not hold it for use in the post-war period when we can import timber again at a price that would not be attractive from our point of view. While it might appear, on the face of it, that we are making fairly substantial inroads on the amount of timber we have at the present time we should remember that this war will have an ending some time and between this and the termination of the war we should not hesitate to avail to the fullest extent of whatever mature timber we have. On the question of timber for fuel purposes there does appear to be a very great demand for timber even for the City of Dublin. Reading through the Minister's statement here, we are led to believe that local demand is catered for as well. In fact I have had complaints from County Kildare, from the Celbridge Parish Council, that their efforts to procure fuel for their people have been hampered by the fact that they cannot get any fuel locally. While there are different woods there owned by the Forestry Department, the fuel goes to the Dublin Corporation and Fuel Importers, Limited, and the local people are not given an opportunity of getting any supply. I should like the Minister to look into that matter, and at least make some quantity of fuel available to the parish council. The Government has given every encouragement to the setting up of parish councils throughout the country for the purpose of dealing with problems of this sort, and where we have parish councils anxious to function in the interests of their people they are entitled to some consideration and some co-operation.

We are told that a very considerable portion of the money spent on salaries and allowances relates to this woodland survey. I think that is a step in the right direction. A survey of that sort will give us a lot of very useful information, and I think it would be desirable to have many other surveys of that type at the earliest possible moment. I believe that is the system by which we should approach this problem of the provision of our requirements in timber. By that means we would get the whole picture right away; we would know the condition of our forests at the moment, what has been achieved, and what can be done in the future. The Minister informed us that, where private woods had been cleared out, it is not possible at the moment to insist on replanting, because the necessary young stock is not there. I suppose if the stock is not there we cannot insist upon replanting, but those things should not be lost sight of, and I am sure they are not being lost sight of. Similarly, in the case of those forests and woods under the control of the Department, restocking ought to be done at the earliest possible moment.

Molaimse an Vóta seo. Vóta é a bhfuil tábhacht mór don Stát ann. Isé mo thuairimse nach bhfuil ár ndóthain déanta againn ar aon chor, ná baol air, le adhmad a chur ag fás le haghaidh teine. Is léir agus is soiléir anois go bhfuil adhmad de dhíth orrainn le haghaidh teine agus go mbeidh an díth adhmaid sin orrainn an fhad a mhairfeas an éigeandáil seo. Is cuimhin liom duine eile bhí ina Aire i bhfeighil na Roinne seo á rá ná raibh adhmad ag teastáil uainn cho géar agus theastuíos sé san Euróip. Níl an tuairim sin ceart indiu. Ag dul i méid o lá go lá atá a dteastuíonn uainn d'adhmad sna bailte móra agus sna cathracha.

I remember, when another Minister was in charge of this Department and we were pressing for more money to be spent on forestry, that particular Minister indicated to us that, unlike other countries in Europe, we were not dependent on timber for fuel. He said that in France and other countries, where they go in extensively for forestry, they do so because a big quantity of that timber is used for fuel. Now, owing to the emergency, timber is being used more and more for fuel purposes, and that is a very good reason why more money should be provided for the growing of timber. I should like to get a comparison between the acreage planted and the acreage cut down in providing fuel for the cities and towns. If we are not planting quickly enough we should speed matters up. I am not one of those who believe that we have unlimited peat resources in this country. That is a farce. This emergency has shown that the bogs are being cut away very rapidly. With the county councils cutting miles of turf, one can see the bogs being exhausted in the near future. That should be an incentive to the Forestry Department to go on with their afforestation, particularly with the growing of wood suitable for fuel.

I believe that charcoal is the coming thing for motor traction. I am not one of those who believe that there are, in the bowels of the earth, limitless reserves of petrol and the oils from which petrol is derived, and that those will go on for ever. I think that is only a temporary phase in traction, and that we will eventually have to go on to charcoal. The growing of wood suitable for charcoal, like laurel, should be developed by the Forestry Department, as I believe that suitable engines will eventually be constructed to consume this wood charcoal. I am not minimising the work which the Department has done; they have done a considerable lot of good work in my county. With regard to the matter of establishing forestry units, we should like to see them taking more definite shape. Six hundred or 700 acres of wood have been planted in the north of my county, and the Department is supposed to be taking over large estates. I should like to see that forestry unit taking shape. There should be an officer in charge in Mullingar, around which the forestry country lies. I heard an Englishman from one of the biggest timber firms in England say that Westmeath, particularly in the district around Mullingar, is the best forestry country in Ireland, and it seems very strange that the officer in charge of Westmeath should reside in Navan where there is practically no timber at all. The unit should be developed from Mullingar. I previously advocated that we should have here something like the system which existed in Germany—that men should be trained at the university, should get a degree in forestry, and then be sent down as ordinary workmen to the State forests, studying there for three years the work of forestry, learning all about felling, sawing, planting, and so on, before being switched on to the more technical side of the work. Only in that way will you make practical woodsmen in this country. I do not know what has been done with regard to that matter, and I should like the Minister to give us some information. That was the practice in England and particularly in the North of Scotland, some years before the war. I think it originated in Germany, where the cult of afforestation is developed very highly and from whose basic ground-work the English learned a lesson that we should try to learn. I am not taking from what the Department has done. I should like in future to see a special Department for Forestry rather than that it should be an adjunct to the Land Commission.

In this Department, like the Department of Lands, work is being held up to a considerable extent, and while there is a widespread demand for an extension of afforestation generally, nobody, I think, would urge the Minister to extend the area under afforestation or to extend the scope of the work at a time when materials are either very expensive or difficult to obtain and when there is a danger that even if seeds could be obtained, they might be inferior. It is far better to postpone that work until the period of emergency has passed. There is, however, quite a lot of useful work that the Department can do during the emergency and which, to a great extent, the Department is doing. During the last couple of years, very useful work has been done by the Department in providing firewood. That work should be pushed on to the utmost extent. The felling of mature timber must always form a part of the Department's activities, but in a time of emergency it is desirable that more timber should be felled than would be done in normal times. In other words, if it is the settled policy of the Department to thin out woods to a certain extent or to remove timber which has matured, at a certain rate per annum, it is desirable to increase that rate during the period of emergency so as to provide the maximum amount of timber for firewood and commercial purposes and, if necessary, to slacken off the rate of felling in the post-war period. I think ordinary common sense would indicate that course and I am sure it is the course that will be adopted.

During this period, when it is so difficult to proceed on a large scale with planting, fencing and drainage, it would be very desirable to check up on the work that has been done or, at any rate, to give the House and the country generally a clear statement of account of the progress which has been made. The people generally would like to know the cost per acre of the land that has been planted and the estimated value of the mature timber produced per acre. We have at the present time widespread demands for a very extensive increase in the area under afforestation. We have at the same time counter claims by people engaged in agriculture, particularly in sheep-raising. There is no doubt whatever that while timber is and will be in future a very valuable asset to this country, sheep-raising is also a valuable industry and the production of wool is a very important branch of our national activities which should rank as of equal importance as the production of timber for industrial purposes and for firewood. For that reason, I think it would be well if a clear statement were given as to the value of the work which has been done up to the present so that the House and the people generally would be able to form a definite idea as to whether or not the policy of afforestation should be very substantially extended.

There is no doubt whatever that the work of the Department in the acquisition of land for the purpose of planting is surrounded with enormous difficulties. We know that an afforestation unit to be economic must be of considerable size for the purposes of supervision, drainage and fencing. That always raises a problem in dealing with lands which are suitable for afforestation but which are also suitable for agricultural purposes. There is no doubt that serious complaints have been made in many areas in regard to the acquisition by the Forestry Department of land which is eminently suitable for agricultural purposes. There is no doubt whatever that very large areas of good arable land have been planted during the past ten or twelve years and it is a question as to whether or not that policy should be continued. I quite appreciate the difficulties of dealing with small patches of arable land in areas where the greater portion of the land is suitable for planting and it is very difficult to isolate a small area and at the same time deal with the problem of fencing the area to be planted and of avoiding trespass and other inconvenience.

I think this is a problem to which the Minister and his Department should direct their attention during this period in which there is a lull in the general work of planting. They should find out how this problem has been dealt with in other countries where it has arisen. As far as I can see, there are in every townland in the country very small areas which are eminently suitable for planting and which are suitable for no other purpose, but, with the present administrative machinery, it is impossible to deal with these areas. I am anxious to know if the Department have considered the question of dealing with such small areas. I know, of course, that there is provision for grants to farmers to carry out this work and I would like the Minister when replying to let us know how far these grants have been availed of. I know from personal knowledge that there is a very large amount of land in the country, in small areas, which could be planted and which, notwithstanding the provision of these grants, no attempt has been made to plant. I should like if the Minister could find some way of getting over that difficulty. I do not know whether or not it has been surmounted in other countries. Naturally, the planting of timber on anything approaching a large scale is not attractive as far as farmers are concerned. The average farmer cannot very well afford to look 30 or 40 years ahead or, at any rate, the average farmer is not inclined to do so. It is not likely that timber would mature in 30 or 40 years and it is too long a period for the average farmer to look ahead. Even with the grants that are available, I think there is not much likelihood of a large number of farmers availing of the grants.

There is another aspect of the Minister's work in this Department which deeply concerns farmers and that is the question of labour. The forestry Department may be looked upon as a reservoir in which there is a considerable amount of labour employed which would be suitable for agricultural purposes during the busy seasons of the year. I think it should be the policy of the Department to make this labour available during the harvest season. In other words, to let men go from the forestry Department during the harvest season if they are required by farmers. I think that would be a great help to the agricultural community generally. This would not cause any difficulty whatever to the Department. It would only mean suspending work for a few weeks, but the result would be of immense benefit to the farmers in those areas.

I think that the work which has been done by the Department, particularly in my constituency, has been very efficiently carried out. Vast areas have been planted and the timber is showing good progress. Drainage, fencing, and the protecting of those plantations have been very efficiently carried out. This emergency has brought home to the minds of every section of the community the value of timber both as a fuel and as a raw material for industry. I think it is desirable that the fullest investigation should be made into every possible avenue by which the work of the Department can be extended with the elimination of particular activities of the Department which do not appear to be justified. It is only by bringing the Department up to the highest standard of efficiency that we can hope to be in a position to extend its work to that degree which the situation would appear to demand. Any work of this kind which has behind it the finances of the State or of the taxpayer is difficult to check up upon because it cannot be judged by the ordinary standards which apply to private enterprise. For that reason, the public should be given a profit and loss account by which they could ascertain the profit which had been returned to the community on the money expended over a period of years. That would be in the interests of the forestry Department and of the country generally.

Deputy Hughes referred to some points which I mentioned in my opening statement, the first and most important being the acquisition of land. I should like to assure the House that the Forestry Branch is doing everything possible to acquire new land for forestry. I should also like to say, in reply to the Deputy, that everything possible will be done to attend promptly to felling notices. As regards the acquisition of land, last year the net area acquired was 9,645 acres, leaving the total area on hands approximately 165,500 acres. As I have mentioned, while occasionally large blocks of land come into the hands of the Forestry Branch, as a rule only small portions are available. Land is also getting far more expensive than it used to be. The Forestry Branch has not increased the rate that it is prepared to pay and, therefore, we do not find very many willing sellers of really good land for forestry purposes. Deputy Hughes seems to think that good land, or even land on which people could live, should not perhaps be made available for forestry. Unless the Deputy and the country can be got to realise that this whole problem of afforestation in the future depends upon the rate of acquisition of land, and that a considerable reserve of land must be built up, sufficient, let us say, to cover a three years' programme, our efforts to attain the ideal that we have set before ourselves of supplying our entire requirements from our own resources will be pushed very far back. We want the co-operation of public men, of public authorities and of all those who are interested in afforestation work in bringing home to the public the importance of afforestation.

The present crisis, as has been stated in the debate, has shown us that some of our most important industries, for example, the printing industry, depend to a very large extent on supplies of timber. Then there is the question of housing. We do not know how long the war may continue, and even when it is over there will be such a scarcity of materials for a period of years—the belligerents will be very anxious to get raw materials for building and constructional work in some of the devastated countries because it will probably take a generation to replace the damage that has been done—that our people should realise that we may not get raw materials, such as timber, very easily for a considerable period. While stressing the need for public co-operation in helping us to secure timber in large blocks, if possible, I might mention that we already have 100 different centres throughout the country. Unless we can link up these centres, or numbers of them, into one large centre, it is obvious that it will be very difficult to frame a programme where you will have equal progress in the acquisition of land in each of the 100 different centres, not to speak at all of the difficulties connected with your nursery programme.

There are certain areas in the country that I am advised are particularly suitable for forestry work, but the people in those areas do not appreciate its value and, even when land has been acquired legally and paid for, the local people often put obstacles in the way of forestry work, by claiming that they are entitled to certain grazing rights. In Wicklow, for example, where forestry work is largely concentrated, there is probably a good appreciation amongst the people of its value in giving employment, but in other areas that is not the case. I would like to impress upon Deputies who may be interested that there are counties like Waterford, Offaly, Tipperary and Cork, where very excellent work could be done, if only the land were available. It will be impossible for us to get the big programme that we have in mind into operation for a good many years, unless we are able to build up this substantial reserve of land—say 30,000 acres—that I have spoken of. That reserve at least would be necessary to carry out a yearly programme of, say, 12,000 or 15,000 acres.

I would also like to issue a warning to the people generally that, under the Forestry Act of 1928, we must prosecute, and we are prosecuting very large numbers. I must compliment the Gárda Síochána on the effective way in which they are seeing that the provisions of the Acts are carried out.

Our resources of timber are limited. A very considerable amount of commercial timber has been felled. The Forestry Branch sold about 250,000 cubic feet in 1941-42 and about 300,000 cubic feet in 1942-43, and from the stocks in private woods it is estimated that, in the past year, some 4,400,000 cubic feet have also been felled; so there is very substantial felling of commercial timber being carried on. While we have no representations as to specific instances where timber was not available for urgent purposes, it is obviously necessary, particularly as we do not know how long the present crisis may continue, to conserve our stocks of commercial timber. It is still more necessary that the Forestry Branch should do so, as felling is going on in private woods at a greatly increased rate. There is probably a great deal of felling, too, by individuals, that has not come under notice. On the Forestry Branch will rest the responsibility of seeing that an iron ration always is available, in case an urgent necessity should arise for timber requirements on a large scale from our own resources.

Deputy Cogan has mentioned the question of commercial accounts. The Department has been considering the matter, but so far it has not been possible to get the accounts into commercial form. On the emergency basis, I am informed that the costs of planting would be about £21 per acre, made up as follows: Cost of planting, fencing and plants, £14; cost of land, £3; cost of over-heads and material, £4. The scheme for the encouragement of planting by private owners only resulted in the planting of 330 acres in 1941-42, and about 400 acres in 1942-43. I would appeal to farmers to take advantage of the scheme and to do more planting. I feel that the nurseries will be in a position to supply them with their requirements in plants. By encouraging our farmers to do more by taking advantage of this scheme, we may spread a more proper reaslisation of the value of woods to our country.

As regards parish councils, the Forestry Branch will try to facilitate them, provided that our commitments to the Department of Supplies, to see that fuel is made available for the larger centres, are not prejudiced thereby. Wherever timber of a material suitable for firewood is available, I am sure the Forestry Branch will try to facilitate parish councils.

Question put and agreed to.
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