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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Feb 1944

Vol. 92 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 58—Marine Service.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £8,800 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Marine Service (Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894 to 1939, and the Foreshore Act, 1933 (No. 12 of 1933)); for certain payments in respect of Compensation, including extra wages of seamen and the cost of medical treatment; and for payments in respect of the provision of certain protective Equipment for Ships and Crews.

Deputies will note from the documents circulated that the sub-heads under which additional sums are required are those in respect of which it is very difficult to determine in advance what Charge may become payable during the course of the year. The experience of one year may be no guide as to the possible charge in an ensuing year. The first of these sub-heads relates to inquiries into shipping casualties. The cost of these inquiries during the year was considerably higher than was estimated, due, very largely, to the prolonged inquiry into the Cork Harbour accident, as well as to the fact that the inquiry into the accident to the Irish Plane which had begun in the previous year was continued into the present financial year.

In respect of the other sub-heads— those at I (1), I (3) and I (6)—the position is similar. The Government pays compensation to crews of Irish ships or to their dependents in respect of loss, injury or detention arising out of the war. The additional payments which were required this year over and above the amount estimated were due largely to the acceptance of liability in respect of the Irish Pine, the Ardmore and the Kyleclare, which were missing at the time the Estimate was prepared and which are now deemed lost. Although the circumstances are not fully known, the Government has decided to pay compensation to the crews on the assumption that their loss was due to belligerent action. The deficiency in the Appropriations-in-Aid was due to the fact that the proceeds from the sale of wreck were less than had been anticipated at the beginning of the year. The total deficiency in the Vote arising under all these sub-heads is £8,800, for which the Supplementary Estimate is required.

I want to bring a certain matter to the notice of the Minister which, I think, arises appropriately on this Vote. One of my constituents was employed as an engineer on an Irish boat which met with disaster, as the result of which he sought refuge on an English boat. While he was on the English boat, it was machine-gunned by a German plane, and my constituent met his death. He had been contributing for some years to the upkeep and support of his widowed mother, who resided in the town of Wexford. At the time of this incident, there was no scheme in operation under which any compensation became payable to the widowed mother. I, as well as a solicitor, on behalf of the widowed mother, took the matter up with the appropriate Government Department.

A scheme for compensation was then coming into being, but had not in fact been perfected, and in the circumstances the legal advisers of the mother deemed it prudent—it was the only possible relief in the circumstances— to bring a claim for workmen's compensation in the court, on the basis that the person upon whom the applicant was dependent had lost his life during and in the course of his occupation as an engineer employed on an Irish boat. The case came before the court, but was withdrawn, because, in the meantime, a scheme based on the English scheme had been evolved, to which this Supplementary Estimate has particular reference, under which compensation is granted in circumstances such as these.

Under these circumstances, when the case came into court it was withdrawn, and the Circuit Court judge dealing with the matter made an award in which, although asked for costs by the respondents, he refused an order for costs. The respondents, although appearing in the name of a very well-known shipping firm, against whom I have no complaint, were in fact the Irish Shipping Federation, which is an organisation employed on these occasions to safeguard the interest of various contributing members, such as this particular Wexford shipping firm. It is to be noted that the Circuit Court judge, having been asked by the Irish Shipping Federation for an order for costs against this widow, made an order refusing costs. Subsequently, when the scheme came into operation, an award was made under which the widow received a small pension. That pension was paid for a certain period —I think a year. But, during the course of the current year, for some reason or other, the pension came up for review, and not only was the pension reduced, but it was stopped for a certain period during which the appropriate payments were held back and put together in a lump sum in order to recoup the shipping firm who had appeared in this particular matter for the costs incurred by them and which they had been refused by the appropriate court.

I have already raised this matter with the Department and, while I received the usual courteous acknowledgment that the matter was being further looked into, a decision was taken to stop some of these payments against these costs. I also placed the matter before the Department on the basis that an appropriate judicial officer had determined the question as to whether costs should be paid or not. I submit that under these circumstances the Minister should treat this widow, the mother of a citizen who lost his life at sea on the country's business, at least with consideration. It is a very strange thing that that amount should be stopped which, I understand, will be handed to the Shipping Federation. Under normal circumstances, one would have imagined that the humblest employer in this land who had an employee who met with an accident such as this and found himself up against certain legal difficulties would have liked to give some slight recompense to the persons dependent on the particular person who met with the injury. But to take advantage of every loophole to escape from the liability and to seek to sequester portion of the award made in favour of the widow in payment of the costs incurred, I think is not a very meritorious performance on the part of the Shipping Federation. I would ask the Minister and his Department not to be a party to a procedure of that kind.

There is a further matter of public interest in connection with that. A large number of our ships that are sailing the seas through danger at present are manned by people from the town of Wexford. Many of the relatives of this man who lost his life are engaged in this hazardous form of employment. This particular case has created a very bad atmosphere not only in Wexford, but all along the coast and in other places where Irish sailors come from. I cannot see upon what grounds the Department stopped this money in order to recoup the Shipping Federation for costs. I feel certain that the Minister, if the matter has not been brought personally to his attention, will look into the matter. The amount involved is something like £10. That may not sound very much, but it means a great deal to this woman who lost her son. There is also a question of principle involved.

I think this Supplementary Estimate serves a useful purpose because it brings home to everyone in this country the great danger which the crews of our ships are facing in bringing various commodities to this country. We have a clear example of that here, as under this Vote a further sum of £8,500 is needed for pensions and allowances in respect of disablement or death. The original Estimate was for £5,000. Such an increase has very likely been brought about by the fact that recently a number of members of the crew of one of our ships were injured. We all deplore these events, which bring home to each and every one of us the real dangers with which these people are faced and the awful ordeals which they have to undergo in order to bring commodities in here which in many cases are necessary for the ordinary life of the community.

I should like to bring to the attention of the Minister a similar case to that mentioned by Deputy Esmonde in which a member of the crew of one of our ships lost his life. That man left as dependents a daughter and a couple of sons. I raised the matter with the Minister's Department and I was informed that unless these persons were totally dependent on their father they were not entitled to compensation. I would be glad if the Minister would look into the case. I can send him all the particulars. It is rather hard that families who lose a father, or some member of the family, who was contributing to their upkeep when they apply for compensation do not receive any allowance merely because they are outside the actual terms of the Order or the Act, as the case may be. I am quite sure that the Minister realises that when the original basis of compensation was fixed, his Department possibly did not foresee the many risks which these people have to undergo. It is hard that a person who is dependent or practically dependent on a father or a husband should not receive compensation.

I should also like to know from the Minister if the sum which falls to be paid for allowances in respect of disablement or death will be recouped by the belligerents eventually found to be responsible for the death of or injury to crews of Irish ships. Possibly that is more a matter for the Department of External Affairs, but many people here would like to be certain that when members of crews lose their lives or are injured by belligerent action when bringing foodstuffs and other commodities here, the belligerents will pay compensation for the losses which their action has brought about.

I just rise to echo the wish expressed by Deputy Cosgrave that, when these troublous times through which we are passing are over, we will be certain that the moneys which are now being paid out by this State in respect of compensation to our very gallant seamen, who are doing so well, will be recouped from the parties responsible for causing these things.

In the case to which Deputy Esmonde referred, the circumstances were not quite as described by him. It is open to dependents of seamen to proceed under the Workmen's Compensation Act or to claim benefit under the Government scheme. In that particular case, the proceedings were taken under the Workmen's Compensation Act. It is not entirely correct to say that the Government scheme was not in operation. It is true that a formal Order was made only, I think, in 1942; but, immediately after the outbreak of war, an announcement was made that the Government would pay compensation in such cases on the basis of the scheme then in operation in Great Britain. The making of the formal Order was not proceeded with until it became necessary and desirable, because it did permit of modifications being made in the compensation arrangements. These have created a position under which our scheme is, in some respects, better than the British scheme. The shipowner was entitled to the recoupment of his cost from the Department of Finance and it was for the purpose of recouping the Department of Finance that it was proposed to make a deduction from the pension payable to the seaman's mother. I have, however, persuaded the Department of Finance not to effect a deduction and repayment will be made to the claimant in question.

I think I am also familiar with the case to which Deputy Cosgrave has referred. In that particular case, the dependent in respect of whom the claim was made was an adult. The scheme does not provide for compensation in respect of adult children, but provides only for compensation in respect of children under a certain age limit. It was open to the claimant in that case to proceed under the Workmen's Compensation Act but, for some reason, that action was not taken. As the scheme stands, however, there is no provision for payment of compensation in respect of adult children.

I do not know what I can say upon the subject of the possibility of securing recoupment of this money. It is extremely difficult, in the three cases to which I have referred, to say definitely what happened. The ship sailed out and nothing more was heard of her: in the case of the Irish Pine there is no information of any kind as to the circumstances which caused the loss of the vessel. In the case of the Ardmore, while it is probable that the ship struck a mine off the south of Ireland, nobody can say that was certainly the case and, in any event, it would be impossible to fix responsibility for the presence of the mine there on any particular belligerent. Somewhat similar circumstances apply in the case of the Kyleclare. In the majority of cases that have arisen, it is particularly difficult to say with certainty the cause of the loss of the vessel or the nationality of the belligerent planes or vessels that caused the loss.

In the case of the Kerlogue?

When responsibility has been accepted by a belligerent, presumably a claim for compensation may arise. I cannot speak with authority on the subject. In the case to which the Deputy now refers, the Government concerned, while not accepting responsibility—because it was alleged that the vessel had departed from sailing orders —agreed, nevertheless, to make an ex gratia payment to the injured members of the crew.

May I add one word?

Is the Minister aware, in connection with the case I referred to—and regarding which I want to thank him for having conceded my point of view—that, if the Government scheme had not been put into operation, and if the applicant had not made a claim for compensation at the time she did, she might be ruled out on the point of time? The application had to be made within a certain time of the death of the person in regard to whom a claim was made. Under the circumstances, it was only a promise, as there was no actual scheme in operation. Would the Minister not be in a position to go to the Shipping Federation and say that this was a case where the Government would undertake responsibility for the costs?

I do not think I could say that. However, the Minister for Finance has now agreed to repay the ten guineas to the lady in question.

Question put and agreed to.
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