Committee on Finance. - Midwives Bill, 1943—Committee Stage.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
I move amendment No. 1:—
To delete all words after the words "In this Act" in line 17 and substitute the following words:—
the expression "the appointed day" means the day on which this Act comes into operation, namely, the 1st day of January, 1945;
the expression "the Board" means the Central Midwives Board established by this Act;
the expression "the former Board" means the board administering prior to the appointed day the Midwives Acts, 1918 and 1931 (repealed by this Act);
the expression "the former roll" means the roll maintained by the former board of persons certified under the Midwives Acts, 1918 and 1931 (repealed by this Act);
the expression "local authority" means a local authority for the purposes of the Local Government Act, 1941 (No. 23 of 1941);
the expression "maternity home" has the same meaning as it has in the Registration of Maternity Homes Act, 1934 (No. 14 of 1934);
the expression "medical officer" means a medical superintendent officer of health for a county borough or a county medical officer of health (as may be appropriate);
the word "midwife" means a woman registered in the roll of midwives;
the expression "midwife's badge" means a badge issued by the board under rules made for the purposes of Section 45 of this Act;
the expression "midwife's certificate" means a certificate issued by the board under Section 32 of this Act;
the expression "the Minister" means the Minister for Local Government and Public Health;
the word "prescribed" means prescribed by rules made under this Act;
the expression "proceedings for removal from the roll of midwives" means proceedings instituted under rules made for the purposes of Section 25 of this Act;
the expression "the roll of midwives" means the roll maintained by the board under Section 23 of this Act;
the expression "rules made under this Act" means rules made under Section 18 of this Act.
This is a drafting amendment.
The whole gist of this amendment is to add three more definitions?
Yes, and to arrange the definitions in alphabetical order, which makes it easier for reference purposes.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 2, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 3 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 14.
Question proposed: "That Section 14 stand part of the Bill."
Provision does not appear to have been made for the appointment of chairmen at the meeting at which the chairman is appointed. I propose to move an amendment on Report Stage to cover the point.
We have no amendment here?
No; it will be moved on Report Stage.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 15 to 19, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 20.
Question proposed: "That Section 20 stand part of the Bill."
The section provides for the setting aside of moneys for a contingency fund, but it does not provide for payments into the contingency fund. I propose to move an amendment to deal with that matter on Report Stage. These are merely drafting points, but I want to mention them now.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 21.
I move amendment No. 2:—
Before Section 21 to insert a new section as follows:—
21.—(1) The board shall cause accounts of the receipts and payments of the board to be kept in such form as the Minister directs or approves.
(2) The accounts of the board shall be made up annually to the 31st day of December.
(3) The accounts of the board shall be audited by a Local Government auditor appointed from time to time by the Minister for that purpose.
(4) The Minister shall determine the fee to be paid by the board in respect of an audit under this section and the fee so determined shall be paid by the board to the Minister and shall thereupon be paid into or disposed of by him for the benefit of the Exchequer in such manner as the Minister for Finance directs.
(5) The board shall prepare an abstract of the accounts of the board relating to each year in such form as the Minister directs or approves, and such abstract shall be certified to be correct by the Local Government auditor auditing such accounts.
(6) The board shall—
(a) keep copies of an abstract prepared in pursuance of sub-section (5) of this section available for purchase or inspection, and
(b) publish a certificate given in pursuance of sub-section (5) of this section,
in such manner as the Minister directs or approves.
This is a drafting amendment. The section, as drafted originally, required the Central Midwives Board to publish a statement of receipts and expenditure, including liabilities. The actual phrasing was, in fact, copied out of the 1918 Act, but the word "liabilities" includes unascertained liabilities, and it does not appear reasonable to ask the board to be in a position to publish their unascertained liabilities. The words are being changed from "receipts and expenditure" to "receipts and payments". It is really only a clarification; there is no new point in it.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 21 not moved.
SECTION 22.
I move amendment No. 3:—
To delete in lines 36 and 37, page 7, the words "statement published by the board under this Act of their receipts and expenditure during" and substitute the words "abstract prepared in pursuance of Section 21 of this Act of the accounts of the board relating to".
This is consequential on amendment No. 2.
It merely brings Section 22 into line with the new Section 21?
Amendment agreed to.
Section 22, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 23.
I move amendment No. 4:—
To delete sub-section (4), page 8 and substitute the following sub-sections:—
(4) The board shall cause—
(a) any verbal or clerical errors in the roll of midwives to be rectified,
(b) any entry in the roll of midwives procured by fraud or misrepresentation to be cancelled,
(c) any change in the address of a woman registered in the roll of midwives to be noted therein,
(d) to be removed from the roll of midwives the name of any woman registered therein where they are satisfied that she has died or where they do not receive an answer to a letter sent to her under sub-section (6) of this section within six months after it is sent.
(5) It shall be the duty of a midwife to notify the board of any change in her name or address.
(6) The board may send by registered post to any midwife a letter, addressed to her address as stated on the roll of midwives, inquiring whether she has changed her name or address.
The main effect of this amendment is to add to Section 23 the provisions now included in Section 20. It is really a rearrangement of the sections; no new principle is introduced.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 23, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 24.
I move amendment No. 5:—
In sub-section (2), page 8, to delete paragraphs (a) and (b) and substitute the following paragraphs:—
(a) such woman shows to the satisfaction of the Board—
(i) that she is certified by any controlling authority exercising jurisdiction outside the State under any enactment for the time being in force which provides for the certification by such controlling authority of persons entitled to attend women in childbirth, and
(ii) that she has undergone, for the purpose of being so entitled, training and examination of a standard not lower than that adopted by the board, and
(iii) that she is of good character, and
(b) the board are satisfied that such controlling authority certifies or is prepared to certify women registered under this Act on reciprocal terms, and ....
This is a drafting amendment. It is required to rectify the wording of paragraph (b) of sub-section (2).
Have we a reciprocal arrangement with Great Britain at present?
Yes, and with Northern Ireland. The only point in this connection is that it is not the country which certifies, but the controlling authority in the country.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 6:—
In sub-section (3), pages 8 and 9, to add at the end of the sub-section the words "and, for the purposes of this sub-section, the board may require an applicant for registration in the roll of midwives to produce such evidence of her physical and mental fitness as they may direct."
The sub-section provides that the board shall not register in the roll of midwives any woman whom the board consider to be physically, or mentally, unfit to attend women in childbirth. The amendment gives the board power to require any applicant for registration in the roll of midwives to produce such evidence of her physical and mental fitness as they may direct. It was an omission in the original draft.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 24, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 25 and 26 agreed to.
SECTION 27.
I move amendment No. 7:—
In sub-section (3), page 10, to insert in line 11 before the word "at" the words "on the day (being at least seven days after the day on which the notice is given) and".
This is an amendment to sub-section (3). Under sub-section (3), the board may, by giving, either personally or by post, written notice in that behalf to any person, require such person to attend at the time and place specified in the notice to give evidence. The amendment provides that seven days' notice to the person will be given. In the drafting, the Bill did not provide for any notice to a witness who may be called upon to give evidence.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 27, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 28.
Question proposed: "That Section 28 stand part of the Bill."
Section 2 (c) provides that where the decision appealed against was a decision either removing a name from the roll of midwives or suspending a midwife from practice, the board may, if they so think fit, pay to the appellant such sum as they consider reasonable compensation for any loss of practice sustained by her between the decision of the board and the determination of the appeal or, where the appellant was suspended from practice by the board on the institution of the proceedings before the board, between the institution of the proceedings and the determination of the appeal. The appeal by a midwife is to the Minister or to a High Court judge. It is true that if the midwife elects to go to the Minister she will probably appear in person. She may, however, appear by counsel before whomever the Minister directs to hear the appeal, as presumably he will not hear it himself. If she elects to go before a High Court judge, it is almost certain that she must have her case prepared by a solicitor and a counsel. Most of these women are in modest circumstances. There is no use giving a midwife a paper right to appeal if you make the right to appeal subject to conditions which no midwife can comply with. Therefore, I suggest to the Minister that the board should be given not only the right but the duty to pay the midwife's expenses in bringing the appeal where the appeal is successful, just as she would have the right, against any defendant against whom she might take an action in a civil court, to claim costs if she succeeded in her case. I could elaborate that point at length, but everybody in the House is as familiar with the analogies I have given and the grounds on which I make the plea as I am myself. Therefore, the Parliamentary Secretary may be inclined to go some way to meet me.
I think that is reasonable, assuming that she is successful in her proceedings. I think I can have an amendment which will meet that point drafted for the Report Stage.
Section 28 agreed to.
Section 29 not moved.
Section 30 agreed to.
SECTION 31.
I move amendment No. 8.
To delete sub-section (4).
This is a drafting amendment consequential on amendment No. 1.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 31, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 32.
I move amendment No. 9.
Before Section 32 to insert a new section as follows:—
(1) The board shall issue to every woman who becomes a midwife or whose name is restored to the roll of midwives a certificate certifying that she is registered in the roll of midwives.
(2) Where the board, on the application of a midwife, are satisfied that her midwife's certificate has been destroyed, the board may issue to her a new certificate certifying that she is registered in the roll of midwives.
(3) Where the board remove the name of any midwife from the roll of midwives, she shall, within 14 days after the notification to her of the decision of the board, return her midwife's certificate to the board for cancellation, and, if she fails to do so, she shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding £5.
(4) Where a midwife dies, the person having custody of her midwife's certificate shall, within 14 days after her death, return the certificate to the board for cancellation, and, if such person fails to do so, he shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding £5.
The amendment proposes to substitute a new section for Section 32 and it makes the following changes: (1) provides that when a certificate is returned to the board on the removal of the name of a midwife from the roll of midwives, or on the death of a midwife, it is returned to the board for cancellation; (2) provides that the board shall issue a new certificate. Under the previous construction, the certificate was to be returned to the board and the same certificate could at a future time be issued. Instead of re-issuing the same certificate, the new section provides that the old certificate shall be returned for cancellation and, in the event of a midwife's name being restored to the register, a new certificate will be issued to her.
There seems to be a lacuna in this, because sub-section (3) provides that where the board remove the name of any midwife she shall, within 14 days, return her certificate to the board for cancellation and, if she fails to do so, she shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding £5. Suppose a midwife cannot find her certificate, suppose it is lost, is it envisaged that she should prove to the board that her certificate was lost and get a new one issued and return that to the board?
The return of the certificate to the board is intended in cases where a certificate may be cancelled or where a midwife dies, or ceases to practise. Presumably, if she has lost the certificate, she cannot return it to the board, and the board have power in case a certificate is lost to issue a duplicate.
Is it under this section, where the board are satisfied it has been destroyed?
I think you can bring it under it. "Destroyed" would, I think, include mislaid.
It would not be a very safe thing to have a midwife's certificate floating about to be picked up and possibly used in England and Northern Ireland. I imagine a midwife would have to satisfy the board that her certificate had actually been destroyed before they would furnish her with a new one.
There is a statutory penalty prescribed in sub-section (3) and it might be inflicted where it was physically impossible to comply with the terms of the sub-section.
I will look into the point and see if it is sufficiently comprehensive to cover the contingency the Deputy has in mind.
And to make some provision that the midwife shall either return her certificate or satisfy the board that she is physically unable to do so?
Amendment agreed to.
Section 32 not moved.
Sections 33, 34 and 35 agreed to.
I suppose it does not make any difference to the procedure that the numbering on the Bill as printed is queer?
The print of two numbers is defective. That does not invalidate the Bill.
SECTION 36.
I move amendment No. 10:—
In sub-section (2), page 12, line 49, to delete the words "or the board".
Section 36 empowers a local supervising authority to suspend a midwife from practice for the purpose of preventing the spread of disease. The amendment proposes to limit the power to give compensation in such cases to the local supervising authority.
The words used here are: "Compensate her for loss of practice." Does that mean in addition to salary?
And whatever is the estimate of the loss she has sustained by reason of suspension.
Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 36, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Is this designed to deal with midwives who have been determined to be disease carriers?
Not specifically. It would be designed in the main to deal with carriers in a sense, but not carriers of the diseases the Deputy has in mind. It is designed to deal mainly with midwives who may be attending cases of puerperal fever. Of course it might be applied to others. She might be a carrier of other diseases, such as diphtheria, typhoid, etc.
Doubtless there is good reason for it, but at the moment it escapes me. If there be a person suffering from puerperal fever it is very necessary to get the best nursing help available in the locality. Unless it is made very clear that the midwife accepting responsibility in a case of that kind will suffer neither in her remuneration nor in her local reputation as a safe and careful person who is not permanently infected, it may be difficult to get the kind of attention that all of us would desire to secure for a sick person of the kind envisaged by the Parliamentary Secretary. The Parliamentary Secretary will bear in mind that country people are a bit queer sometimes and misinterpret a sensible temporary precaution as being a permanent reflection on the cleanliness and capacity of the midwife who comes under such a restriction as is envisaged here. Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that there is provision here to ensure that the midwife to whom this section is applied will be adequately compensated for the inconvenience caused to her?
Perhaps I may help the Parliamentary Secretary out. There was, 20 years ago, a certain amount of idea that there was some slur on a midwife when put off because the case was septic; but, like a great many other reforms, people have become quite accustomed to that. It happens two or three times a year in every administrative area. I think it is true to say that there are no complaints—I have not heard of any from my colleagues—with regard to the rate of compensation paid by boards of health in the past and in the present.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 36, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 37.
I move amendment No. 11:—
In sub-section (2), page 13, line 9, to delete the words "or the board."
This deals with the same principle as that dealt with in the previous amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 37, as amended, agreed to.
Section 38 agreed to.
SECTION 39.
I move amendment No. 12:—
To add at the end of the section the following word and paragraph "and
(d) for the granting of certificates to persons taking the courses of training and passing the examinations."
This amendment is intended to empower the Central Midwives Board to grant certificates to persons who take courses of training and pass the requisite examination. These certificates are not the same as certificates of registration on the Roll of Midwives, which enable women to practise. They are merely certificates to the effect that the candidates have taken certain courses and passed certain examinations. It has been the practice to issue such certificates, but this amendment now proposes to give statutory authority for the issue of such certificates.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 39, as amended, agreed to
SECTION 40.
I move amendment No. 13:—
In page 13, line 30, to delete the word "optional".
Section 40 empowers the board to provide for optional courses. The word "optional" appears to be superfluous. That is really all that is in this amendment. The section provides that the board may require midwives to attend such courses of instruction, but the midwife may be required by the regulations made by the board to attend such a course, and it does not appear to be proper to describe such a course as optional. The midwife may have no option but to attend.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 40, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 41, 42 and 43 agreed to.
SECTION 44.
I move amendment No. 14:—
Before Section 44 to insert a new section as follows:—
The board shall, by rules made under this Act, regulate, supervise, and restrict within due limits the practice of midwifery by midwives and the conduct of midwives.
This is merely a drafting amendment, substituting a new Section 44. The section empowers the central authority to regulate, supervise and restrict within due limits the practice of midwives. There seems to be some doubt as to the words "the practice of midwives", and this amendment proposes to alter the wording to "the practice of midwifery by midwives and the conduct of midwives".
Amendment agreed to.
Section 44 not moved.
SECTION 45.
Question proposed: "That Section 45 stand part of the Bill."
The same kind of points arise in connection with this midwife's badge as arose, and as I mentioned to the Minister, in connection with the midwives' certificate. There is a proviso under sub-section (3) (d) that "she shall within 14 days from the notification to her of the removal surrender the badge to the board". In the other paragraphs, similar provisions are made in the event of her death or otherwise becoming unable to retain the badge. Again, should the badge become lost or destroyed, it would seem there ought to be a proviso that the responsible person must either satisfy the board of physical inability to return it or return it.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 46.
I move amendment No. 15:—
To delete sub-sections (2) and (3), page 15, and substitute the following sub-sections:—
(2) Where any midwife who has practised in the district of a local supervising authority during any year proposes to continue practising in that district during the next following year, she shall, during the month of January in the latter year, give notice of such proposal to such local supervising authority.
(3) Where any midwife attends any woman in childbirth in a district of a local supervising authority in which she does not ordinarily practise, she shall immediately give notice of the attendance to such local supervising authority, or if she is unable to give such notice immediately, shall give it not later than 48 hours after the attendance.
Sub-section (2), as amended, requires any midwife who has practised in the district of a local supervising authority during any year and proposes to continue practising during the following year, to notify the local supervising authority in the month of January. In the sub-section in the Bill, this requirement applied to a midwife who had previously given notice of her intention to practise. This is really a better drafting.
Does anything happen if she does not?
She would be guilty of an offence, if she fails to comply with the section, under sub-section (6) and liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding £5.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 46, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 47.
I move amendment No. 16:—
In sub-section (1), page 15, to delete all words after the word "practitioner" where it first occurs in line 32 to the end of the sub-section.
The words proposed to be deleted would, if retained in sub-section (1) in the place where they occur at the end of the sub-section, have the effect of requiring the Central Midwives Board to provide in their rules that, when the midwife of a dispensary district is attending a patient in the course of her duties as dispensary midwife, she shall, if any emergency occurs, call in the medical officer of the dispensary district, if available.
The Central Midwives Board consider that this is not a matter to be provided for by them in their rules and that it should be provided for by the Minister in connection with the administration of medical assistance. To meet the views of the board and the views expressed by Deputy O'Higgins on Second Reading, this amendment is now put before the House.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 17:—
In sub-section (2), page 15, lines 37-39, to delete the words and brackets "(not being the medical officer of a dispensary district called in by the midwife in the course of her duties as a midwife of such district)".
This amendment will have the effect of requiring the midwife of a dispensary district to report to the local supervising authority the nature of an emergency in which she called to her assistance the medical officer of the dispensary district in the course of her duties as midwife of the district. It will also have the effect of providing a complete record of cases in which a medical practitioner is called in.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 18:—
Before sub-section (8), page 16, to insert a new sub-section as follows:—
(8) Nothing in sub-section (1) of this section or any rules made for the purposes of that sub-section shall be construed as preventing the Minister from requiring a midwife of a dispensary district, when calling in to her assistance under this section a registered medical practitioner, to call in the medical officer of such district, if he is available.
This amendment proposes to insert in Section 47 a new paragraph to preserve the power of the Minister to require a midwife of a dispensary district, when calling a registered medical practitioner to her assistance, to call in the medical officer of the district if he is available. Under the Public Assistance Act, and the regulations made under that Act, the midwife of a dispensary district is under an obligation to call in the dispensary medical officer in certain emergencies. This amendment is intended to ensure that nothing in this Bill will take from the Minister the powers of control which he has under the Public Assistance Act.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 47, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 48.
I move amendment No. 19:—
To add at the end of the section a new sub-section as follows:—
(2) Rules for the purposes of this section shall provide that a midwife employed by a local authority shall not be required to attend any course of instruction to which the rules relate unless the local authority, with the consent of the Minister, give her leave of absence for the purpose of attending such course.
This amendment is intended to provide that when the Central Midwives Board make rules requiring midwives to attend post-graduate courses of instruction, such rules shall provide that, where a midwife is employed by a local authority, she shall not be required to attend a course of instruction to which the rules relate, unless the local authority, with the consent of the Minister, give her leave of absence for the purpose. If the Central Midwives Board could direct a midwife to attend a post-graduate course without her securing the permission of the local authority, a condition of confusion in administration would arise. I do not think that it is likely that a local authority will, in any case, refuse permission, but it is desirable that the midwife should have the permission of the local authority before she attends the post-graduate course.
Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 48, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Suppose the Central Midwives Board ordered a midwife, in receipt of a small salary, to take a post-graduate course, who is to pay the midwife's expenses when taking that course? Take the case of a midwife who has about £104 a year. She is called to Dublin to attend a post-graduate course at Holles Street or the Coombe or the Rotunda. The woman may not be able to afford that course. Is it thought right to give the board the power to order a midwife to take this course? If so, what provision have we made for the situation in which the midwife's family circumstances do not permit of her attending such a course?
She will be paid by the local authority.
As a result of the amendment by the Parliamentary Secretary, she is to be paid, but the local authority's payment is very small. If it is only 30/- a week, it will not keep the woman in Dublin.
Apropos of that, nurses from County Wexford were called to some course and got the permission of the Minister to attend it. The local authority was anxious to pay them expenses sufficient to keep them in Dublin but the Minister for Local Government refused to sanction those expenses and the nurses were out of pocket as a result.
They may have been too generous. Were these ladies midwives?
I do not know; they were nurses.
If they were not midwives, they do not come under this Bill.
I know that, but what Deputy Dillon has referred to might occur. The local authority was fully satisfied that the amount allowed to those nurses was not sufficient to enable them to obtain proper accommodation in Dublin. The local authority gave only what they considered sufficient and the Department turned it down. What Deputy Dillon wants is to secure, I take it, that this will not happen in the case of midwives.
If you are going to force a woman, in order to retain her means of livelihood, to take a post-graduate course, you should give her such an allowance as will enable her to do that without being involved in financial embarrassment.
I think we shall have to leave that to the discretion of the local authority. It rarely happens that the local authority is too generous.
That is what I was going to say.
It is open to the local authority, in addition to paying the midwife's salary and paying a substitute to discharge her duties, to give her further reasonable expenses. They must have the consent of the Minister and, when it comes to a question of interpreting "reasonable expenses," the Minister comes into the picture. There would, probably, be a difference of opinion between the Minister and Deputy Corish as to what would constitute "reasonable expenses." It must be borne in mind that, if the midwife did not go to Dublin for a post-graduate course, she might not be able to retain her private practice as against her neighbouring practitioners who had reached a higher degree of professional efficiency. It has also to be taken into consideration that, if she remained at home and did not take the post-graduate course, her maintenance would cost her something. These matters have to be considered in assessing "reasonable expenses."
It would be quite legitimate to be stiff on the subject of expenses if the course were optional but, if you give the board power to compel a midwife to attend a course, then it is necessary for us to secure that it will be made financially possible for her to attend. I do not desire that she should be maintained like a queen in Dublin when attending this course. All I want to secure is that attendance at the course will not cripple her. I take it that the power of the local authority to provide maintenance for her in addition to giving her leave of absence, derives from some other statute than that which we are at present considering.
There is nothing in the Parliamentary Secretary's amendment imposing on the local authority the duty of providing maintenance. All the amendment allows the local authority to do is to give leave of absence. It does not bespeak maintenance at all, but merely the payment of a substitute. I would, therefore, be glad to be reassured by the Parliamentary Secretary that there is some other statute under which the local authority may give maintenance in addition to leave of absence.
I cannot, on the spur of the moment, quote the authority, but I know that it has been done. There must be statutory authority for it; otherwise, it would not be done.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary look into the point?
To see, first of all, that there is statutory power to give maintenance and leave of absence, and, secondly, to satisfy himself from the records of the Department that, in fact, an adequate allowance will be provided in cases where midwives are compelled to go away on courses of this kind.
It depends on what the Deputy means by "adequate allowance".
It depends upon what the Parliamentary Secretary's word "reasonable" means.
I want an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary that what is deemed to be an adequate allowance will be made by way of maintenance in addition to the amenity of leave of absence in cases where a midwife is compelled to go away on a course.
Say, reasonable expenses.
In addition to leave of absence.
Provided that that principle is accepted and acted upon by the local authority. I will not undertake to enforce it on the local authority.
As things have been for a number of years, the Minister for Local Government has given authority to provide maintenance, plus travelling expenses, for optional courses. When such facilities are given in these cases, it is reasonable to expect that they will be given for attendance at compulsory courses.
It is a question of the limit. Deputy Corish and Deputy Dillon are pressing for a guarantee.
Deputy Dillon's point was that they would get maintenance in addition to travelling expenses.
I have already informed Deputy Dillon that that has been the practice if the local authority recommends it. Now Deputy Corish tells us that in Wexford sanction was refused. As I have not had an opportunity of looking into that, I cannot deal with it.
Sanction was not completely refused.
I assume that the decision was based on the amount of maintenance that was being allowed.
Sanction was not refused, but the amount——
We are not going to put the amounts into a Bill.
The amount allowed by the council was turned down by the Minister. I think that the Minister's reasonable expenses are often unreasonable.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 49.
Question proposed: "That Section 49 stand part of the Bill."
On the section, I desire to direct the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the wording of paragraph (d) of sub-section (1), "such attention is given, otherwise than for reward,..." Is it essential to put in the words "otherwise than for reward"? I quite agree that the day of the handy woman is gone, and that we are resolute in insisting that in future whoever attends a woman in childbirth shall be a qualified person. Nevertheless, those of us who live in the country know that very often a very good neighbour comes in and fills a gap in an emergency. People would be reluctant in those circumstances to allow her to go without making her a present of one kind or another. Would such a person be committing a statutory offence under this sub-section if she were to accept a present in such circumstances? I would not like to see a situation created in which a perfectly respectable neighbour who so acted would bring herself into conflict with the law.
If the insertion of the words is necessary in order to prevent abuses, then we will have to bear with them, but if they are not necessary I would be glad if they were left out.
I must differ from Deputy Dillon on this point. I do not want to speak of the experiences any of us may have had, but I would urge on the Committee that the more we tighten up everything connected with attendance on women in childbirth we will be ensuring that every woman, at such a difficult time, will get skilled attention. I would not shy at the insertion of words in order to ensure that. My own experience and that of most of my professional colleagues has been that if you leave the slightest loophole to meet what appears to be a genuine case, advantage will be taken of it, and you will have handy women and unskilled people coming back again. I think that the words in the section are a safeguard and ought to be retained.
In view of what Deputy O'Higgins has said, I withdraw my objection.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 50 and 51 agreed to.
SECTION 52.
I move amendment No. 20:—
To delete sub-section (2), page 17, and substitute the following sub-section:—
(2) A local supervising authority shall, in the month of February in each year, send to the board a statement of the name and address of every midwife who during the month of January in that year has given to such authority a notice under sub-section (1) or sub-section (2) of Section 46 of this Act.
This is a drafting amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 52, as amended, agreed to.
Section 53 agreed to.
SECTION 54.
Question proposed: "That Section 54 stand part of the Bill."
On the section, does this section amount to the proposition that if a midwife produces her certificate in court judicial notice will be taken that it is irrebuttable proof of her qualifications?
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 55.
I move amendment No. 21:—
In lines 32 to 34, page 17, to delete the words "premises which he believes to be a nursing home conducted for profit in which attendance is given to women in childbirth" and substitute the words "maternity home which is situated in the district of such authority".
The section, as it appears in the Bill, provides that if
"any officer of a local supervising authority, authorised by such authority to exercise the powers conferred by this section, may at all reasonable times enter any premises which he believes to be a nursing home conducted for profit...."
This amendment gives the supervising authority, acting through their medical officer, the right to enter any home for the purpose of inspection whether or not it is conducted for profit.
Mr. Larkin
Surely the original draft was the correct one, giving the right to enter any place?
The original draft only gave the right of entry and inspection if the home was conducted for profit. The Deputy will realise that there might be great difficulty in determining whether, in fact, it was conducted for profit. The amendment gives the right to inspect any maternity home.
Mr. Larkin
But suppose you have homes operating in the country such as we have had in Dublin. They are not going to operate for love. As they are not designated maternity homes, there is no supervision over them.
No such institution can carry on now without being registered.
Mr. Larkin
But it is not an institution.
Mr. Larkin
I am referring to the abuses that go on. There is no manifestation of the business carried on in these places. There have been births not registered and deaths not registered, and surely it is one of the purposes of this Bill to correct that.
All these abuses to which the Deputy has referred are contrary to law.
There is a drafting point in this particular section to which I should like to draw attention. It appears to be assumed that the officer acting for the supervising authority will in all cases be a male—it is "he" all through. I think it should be "he or she".
I think "he" includes "she" in the legal sense.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 55, as amended, and Sections 56 to 64, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 65.
I move amendment No. 22:—
Before Section 65, page 19, to insert a new section as follows:—
65. As soon as may be after the appointed day, the board shall send to the Minister a report of the proceedings of the former board during the year 1944 and the report shall contain such particulars as the Minister directs.
It is a drafting amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 23:—
In sub-section (1), page 19, to delete in lines 6 and 7 the words "the Minister acting by".
This is also a drafting amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment No. 24:—
To delete sub-section (4) and substitute the following sub-section:—
(4) The Minister shall determine the fee to be paid by the board in relation to the certification in pursuance of this section by a local government auditor of the statement published under this section and the fee so determined shall be paid by the board to the Minister and shall thereupon be paid into or disposed of by him for the benefit of the Exchequer in such manner as the Minister for Finance directs.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 65, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule and Title agreed to.
Bill, as amended, reported.
Subject to the approval of the House, I should like to have the Report Stage taken to-morrow. There are only minor amendments to be dealt with.
Will the House sit to-morrow?
Yes, but it may not sit next week. I shall try to have the amendments circulated by to-morrow.
Report Stage ordered for Thursday, 2nd March.
