It is proposed to take the business in the following order:— Nos. 2, 3 (including Votes 61, 62, 63 and 64), and then 1 and 4; Government Business to be interrupted at 6 o'clock to take Private Motion No. 11. The time allotted to the discussion of this motion is one and a half hours. The motion for the adjournment is to be taken not later than 10.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
I have already given notice to the Chair of my proposal to move the adjournment of the House in accordance with Standing Order No. 29. I request leave to move the adjournment of the Dáil for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the situation which has arisen as a result of the stoppage or curtailment of coal imports, and the arrangements proposed to be made by the Government to meet that situation. I have already put that in the hands of the Chair.
The motion appears to me to be of the character contemplated in Standing Order 29. Will the Deputies who support the request please rise in their places?
Deputies rose.
Leave to make the motion is given. In accordance with the Standing Order, the motion will, in the absence of other arrangements, be taken at 9 p.m.
I desire to move that leave be given to move this motion at 6 p.m. this evening. I do so for reasons that I will state briefly. The Dáil is on the verge of adjourning over the week-end. At the beginning of next week it is proposed, as far as indications are given, to curtail the railway services in this country to the extent of two-thirds of the passenger services and one-third in respect of the goods services. People are unaware of what is the actual situation with regard to coal which has brought about this drastic reduction. There is great public confusion and greater public anxiety. One need only advert to the stoppage of so much passenger traffic and particularly to the stoppage of so much goods traffic to realise the seriousness of the situation in this country, particularly in connection with the transport of agricultural goods, and the repercussions it may have.
In addition to that, there is further public confusion caused by the fact that in many quarters of this city it is held that there has been no curtailment, no drastic curtailment of coal whatever, notwithstanding which there are not merely statements with regard to the stoppage of transport in the way I have indicated, but there are stories of a terrifying nature with regard to proposals said to be contemplated by the Gas Company and other public utility services. The public have no information. The company, apparently, is being controlled in this matter by the Government appointed nominee to the railway board, and possibly by departmental servants, and I consider, and I submit to the House that it would be proper that at least by 6 o'clock this House should adjourn to consider this matter of urgent public importance and to hear what is the exact information that the Government have, even at this moment, with regard to either the curtailment or the stoppage of these imports, and also to hear what, if any, arrangements the Government have made, or propose to make, to meet that situation.
I desire to support the Deputy's motion. So far as the urgency of this matter is concerned——
The Chair has admitted the urgency and allowed the motion. It is now a question of requesting more time than is permitted in the Standing Order.
It is because of the Deputy's request for an alteration of the time that I am anxious to intervene. There is another aspect of the coal question that I propose to refer to. I wish to refer to a most unhappy meeting which took place at Kingsbridge Station yesterday. People were met, I am sorry to say, by the management in a spirit which showed no appreciation of what may be termed a national crisis.
The Deputy seems to be discussing the merits of the motion.
Unless this matter is dealt with immediately and is treated as one of urgency, a serious situation may arise. I suggest we should have adequate time to discuss this motion as one of urgency. I venture to say that unless this matter is handled prudently and carefully a crisis, apart altogether from the coal aspect, may overtake us before the week-end.
While fully realising the importance of this matter, I feel compelled to object to the motion being taken at 6 o'clock. I am surprised at Deputy McGilligan butting-in on a motion which has been on the Order Paper for a very long time, a motion to annul an Emergency Powers Order. Government permission has been granted for the consideration of that motion. I have been for the past three weeks pressing for its consideration. I do not see why the Deputy could not introduce his motion at 7.30 p.m., and have a late sitting to deal with it if he so wishes.
The main items for discussion to-day are four Estimates, none of which is urgent. They could be dealt with a month hence. The most paramount problem at the moment is the dislocation of the transport services. I urge the Taoiseach to approach this matter in a statesmanlike way, and to realise that the Estimates are in no way immediate.
That is not so.
I am addressing the Chair and I am appealing to the Taoiseach. The Army Estimate has already been discussed in considerable detail at the Defence Conference. This Government knows that it has got probably more co-operation in a time of crisis than any other Government in the world. A discussion of the transport services is a matter of vital importance. Certain Ministers may not know it, but Deputies certainly know that there is perfect public bewilderment as to what the transport services next week will be and what the position of communications from the transport point of view next week will be. I appeal to the Taoiseach to rise above the punctillio of debate and procedure and recognise that this is an important matter. Let us leave the Estimates over until next week. If the Government afford facilities for the discussion of this most important matter of transport to-day I feel sure they will get all the co-operation they want in discussing the Estimates next week and any other matters at a later date.
May I suggest that it is quite manifest that there is sufficient public uncertainty and anxiety to justify this matter being disposed of as effectively as it may be by the Legislature—and that is by open discussion? It is unnecessary, I think, to reassure the Executive that at this moment of acute difficulty they need anticipate no carping criticism, and there will be no artificial difficulties constructed to add to those with which they are already confronted.
May I say that I think Deputy Donnellan is under a misapprehension? Deputy McGilligan's proposal in no way cuts across his desire to discuss the wool motion to which he referred. The Government is going to give time for that, and whatever time is given to the consideration of Deputy McGilligan's motion, presumably the Government will give Deputy Donnellan time in accordance with their undertaking to discuss his motion of limited, albeit definite, importance. I suggest to the Taoiseach that if he would arrange to take Deputy McGilligan's motion at 6 o'clock this evening, an order to sit not later than midnight might be made and a reasonable time could be given to the Minister for Supplies to conclude. All that could be provided for. That would meet the wishes of the House and the bulk of Deputies will, I feel sure, leave the discussion to the leaders of the several Parties in the House.
What everybody wants is not so much to air his views as to afford the Government an opportunity of making a calm, dispassionate statement which will allay public bewilderment rather than create a feeling of dismay. We are all prepared for a period of dismay and difficulty. What encumbers the public mind is bewilderment and uncertainty, and the purpose of Deputy McGilligan's motion is to remove that bewilderment and uncertainty and ensure that no section of the community will take a grave step because they do not fully understand the position. Deputy O'Sullivan has mentioned the possibility of serious misunderstanding arising. I suggest there is no possibility of any break-up in the community's resolution to stick together in a time of difficulty except through misunderstanding.
We are adjourning to-night. No opportunity will be given between this and next Monday, when the cuts come into operation, of having any kind of frank and open discussion which will remove misunderstanding—not to pretend that there are no difficulties ahead. I ask that Deputy McGilligan's motion should be accepted, with the two provisos (1) that Deputy Donnellan should be given time to ventilate his particular difficulty, and (2) that, instead of adjourning at 10.30 we should adjourn at midnight or later, so that ample time will be given to authoritative members of the House to explain all the difficulties, and ample time given to the Minister to consider the representations made and to make the fullest reply that the facts at his disposal would permit him to make at the present time.
It is rather unfortunate that I was elsewhere this morning when I heard over the phone that this motion was to be made, and that I did not have an opportunity of discussing the matter with the Minister immediately responsible, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is at the moment engaged in the Seanad. Therefore, I am in a certain amount of difficulty in replying. I understand and appreciate the basis of the remarks made, but I am not quite sure whether we have to make a decision just now. I should like to have an opportunity to discuss this matter with the Minister for Industry and Commerce and see whether it would be possible to arrange to have an early discussion—this would ordinarily come up at 9 o'clock— whether it would be possible to have it come up at an earlier hour. We might also have to come to some arrangement with the Deputy who has the other motion which was to come on at 6 o'clock. I do not know whether it would be possible to postpone an absolute decision.
By agreement the hour could be fixed later.
Then we shall try to fix an hour later on.
That is if a motion to have the hour fixed is made later, the Chair might agree?
It is not a motion. It is a request to the Government for longer time for discussion.
To fix the hour?
Yes, for the motion. That can be decided later on.
What about the hour for the adjournment?
That is if it were necessary to sit later. Perhaps we had better decide on the question of sitting later now.
I have already moved that the House shall sit until not later than 11 o'clock.
It would be open to the Government, in the event of fixing the discussion of the transport situation for 6 o'clock, to move later on that we sit not later than 12 midnight, or does the motion already moved decide the matter for the remainder of the day?
The Dáil can agree now to sit until 12 midnight if necessary, but the House need not necessarily sit until then.
Do you not think that would be the wise thing to do?
I think a period of about three hours would be ample.
It might be possible to arrange for Deputy Donnellan to get his one and a half hours, and Deputy McGilligan might be facilitated at 7.30 and then sit until 11 p.m. or later.
Is it until 12 midnight?
Did not the Deputy who made the statement more or less confine it to the leaders of the Parties giving their views?
It was a pious suggestion.
I think it was a lovely suggestion, coming from the Deputy.
Remember, it was I made the suggestion; they did not. There is a big difference. I can limit myself, but I will not let them.
Is the understanding that between this and six o'clock I will see what can be done about fixing an hour? The motion has to be taken on the adjournment in any case; but we are to see if it is possible to fix an earlier hour.
What would you think of giving Deputy Donnellan his one and a half hours, as has been already agreed, from 6 to 7.30, and then take the other discussion and, if necessary, sit until midnight?
That can be arranged at the same time as the other matter.