The problem to which Deputy Allen has referred is one which is receiving consideration. As the law stands at present, I think the local authority has no power to compel a person to connect to a sewerage scheme where the premises affected are already provided with adequate sanitation. Of course, that has its disadvantages from the point of view of a local authority that has carried out a comprehensive scheme. On the other hand it is rather difficult to say that you should compel a person who already has an efficient sanitary service to connect up with the municipal scheme. However, the problem is, as I said, under examination and perhaps we may be able to find a solution for the situation which in some areas at any rate is unsatisfactory in view of the circumstances to which the Deputy has referred.
Deputy Coogan, in his concluding statement, referred to the fact that there were no standard scales of remuneration in force for mental hospital workers. That is quite true but that matter again has been engaging the attention of the Department for a considerable time and very prolonged negotiations have been carried on by the Parliamentary Secretary, Dr. Ward, with representatives of the staffs and other interests concerned, in order to see whether we cannot get a greater degree of uniformity than at the moment prevails. I think we are well on the way to a solution in that regard.
A great deal of attention in the debate was given to the problem of tuberculosis and everybody stressed what we, all of us, regret—the lamentable and deplorable lack of adequate accommodation in the country to enable us to provide institutional treatment for those who require it. But while we may regret this at the same time we cannot discuss this problem with our heads in the sand; we can no more provide all the necessary institutions for the treatment of this disease than we can make bricks without straw.
Everybody is aware of the acute shortage of building materials, the shortage of practically every essential requirement for providing hospital accommodation. There is a shortage of all sorts of metals, a shortage of glass, a possible shortage of even cement, and there is no use in people coming along here and saying, "You should have these beds" when they know very well that in present circumstances there is no possibility of providing these beds except at a slow rate, a very slow rate, and under great difficulties. We have in fact made some progress towards the solution of this problem since last year. Every effort is being made to speed up the treatment of persons suffering from tuberculosis and considerable difficulties are being experienced in procuring building materials. But despite this, some progress has been made, and as a result of new institutions provided 135 additional beds have been made available and works are in progress on existing institutions to provide a further 135 beds, while extensions have been planned to provide 336 extra beds. In addition a considerable number of further beds are in contemplation. All our efforts to secure those beds are entirely determined by the supply of building requirements available. There is no use coming in here and telling me about 100 people waiting for beds as Deputy Byrne did. I am as much concerned, even more so, than Deputy Byrne about these people because with the two Parliamentary Secretaries I am responsible for finding an adequate solution for this problem.
I can no more provide 100 houses by a whisk of a wand than Deputy Byrne, but I have the honesty to come along and tell the people the difficulties. I do not trade on the sorry plight of the unfortunate sufferers of this disease. When discussing this matter, let someone come along and instead of stating the position tell us how we are going to cure it. One suggestion was made here and repeated by Deputy Norton that we should take all these derelict and unoccupied mansions and convert them into sanatoria. We declare immediately that we have had an exhaustive survey made of every vacant and unoccupied house in the country which at first sight by reason of its size and location might be suitable for conversion into a hospital or sanatorium and we have been disappointed beyond measure, by the result of that survey. The number of houses found to be suitable was very small. Most of these houses were built when requirements in regard to sanitation and hygiene were not what they are now. Many of them are without a water supply and a great majority of them without even proper sanitation.
In order to provide them with the hygienic accommodation that hospitals would require, we would have to procure things that are not procurable, things which, in fact, are holding up the construction of new hospitals; things which, if available, would enable us to proceed with the hospital programme we have already mapped out; things which would relieve us of the need of trying to find any sort of substitute for the hospitals we have contemplated. This proposal has been examined, not this year or last year, but three or four years ago, when the question of providing for evacuees from the city was being intensively investigated. We have gone back on this early investigation two or three times with the idea of trying to find somewhere some substitute for the hospital accommodation which we so urgently require. The year before last, when infantile paralysis was widespread, we had an exhaustive survey made of all buildings standing within a reasonable radius of Dublin. We found one capable of providing something like 100 beds which has been remodelled and is now under the control of the commissioners of the board of assistance. This was the result of an exhaustive examination within a very wide radius of the City of Dublin, where you would think buildings which could be used as hospitals would be more numerous than around the country towns. We carried out the same survey throughout the length and breadth of the country. We made an effective examination of all the residences and buildings that came under the control of the Land Commission, and, for the reasons I have mentioned, the difficulties of providing water and sanitation found them unsuitable generally. We simply had to make up our minds that those old mansions could not be utilised for the purposes of providing substitute hospitals, and we may as well make up our minds that until after this war is over, and fresh supplies are available, that the rate at which beds can be provided is going to be very much slower than any of us desire or even think adequate, and certainly very much slower than the public demand, than the public conscience, almost, will tolerate. But there is no way out of it so long as building materials are curtailed to the extent that they are now. Accordingly, we have to consider whether we cannot find some other way of dealing with the problem. We have made an approach to this problem by providing supplementary food allowances, and other arrangements were made to induce people who have contracted the disease to seek early treatment, and to provide them with proper food, clothes, beds and bedding. We would go even further than that again if it were possible for us with the limited supplies of building material. We would even try to provide them with rooms in which they could isolate themselves and their families. These things are impossible so long as the present situation exists, and all we can do in the present circumstances is to try to alleviate their condition to the extent to which it is possible with the things which we have at our disposal. It is not because any of us in the Department of Local Government and Public Health are satisfied with the existing position that that position obtains. It is because we are faced with difficulties which, being human beings, and not supermen, we cannot overcome.
One of the matters in relation to which there was a great deal of criticism was the manner in which we have asked the local authorities to provide supplemental allowances for old age pensioners and those coming under kindred categories living in the rural areas. So far as the urban areas are concerned, we have already met the position there to a reasonable extent, bearing in mind what the resources of this community are, by providing the food vouchers. A scheme of that sort would not be workable in rural areas, and we have tried to meet the necessitous cases, the cases of hardship in rural areas, by making a cash grant as supplementary allowance to the old age pensioners. But, in connection with that, we have to remember that where persons are in necessitous circumstances the primary obligation of relieving their necessity rests on the local authority, which is the public assistance authority for the district. But, when we decided to make a cash allowance, we took a reasonable view of the situation and said that under present conditions we were not going to impose on the local authority the full responsibility for supplementing the old age pension in the case of persons whose circumstances were necessitous. We said that we were going to relieve the local authority of a great part of that obligation and liability, but nevertheless the obligation and the liability rest in the first instance on the local authority. We cannot afford to lose sight of that fact, otherwise we would simply convert the whole system of social services into a poor law code operated from a central institution here in Dublin and operated, I would say, in these circumstances with much less regard for the personal needs of any applicant than would naturally be felt by those living as neighbours in immediate proximity to the person who is to secure the relief; for they would have a more human view and a view less hidebound than would be the case, say, if the services were to be administered from one centralised organisation with its central direction located here in the metropolis.
As I was saying, we had regard, first of all, to the fact that the primary obligation of relieving necessity rests on the public assistance authority. The next thing we realised was that perhaps, in view of the circumstances, the number of cases where assistance would have to be given would be much more than normal and that, therefore, the local authority might not be able to cope with the problem upon an adequate scale. We also had regard to the fact that there are at present many other demands on the local authorities. Apart altogether from the demand for public assistance, there are increased demands for the maintenance of roads and for the maintenance of the local institutions. Therefore we decided that, while we would ask local authorities to do their duty, we would come along and take the major part of the burden; and we have been taking it to the extent of three-fourths or 75 per cent. of the total cost.
In devising our scheme, we also had regard to the fact that there are many persons drawing old age pensions in rural areas who are living in conditions of comparative comfort, comfort certainly as compared with most old age pensioners in urban areas. We are all of us well aware of the revolution which Deputy Dr. Ward's Old Age Pensions Act of 1932 brought about. We all of us have seen cases where persons, whom I would describe as comfortable farmers, even substantial land owners, assigned their farms to members of their families and got pensions at the full rate. Those people, when they assigned the farms, reserved to themselves certain rights: the right to a room, the right to food, the right to a seat at the fire, and other things. At the present time, when we know that a very great number of the people who would have to be taxed to provide a supplementary allowance are themselves living in conditions of great difficulty, in urban areas in particular, we could not disregard the fact that a very large number of persons in receipt of old age pensions who are living in rural areas are living in circumstances of comparative comfort, living on a farm or living with relatives who have a filial duty and obligation to them still.
I hope the philosophy is not growing up in this country that when parents become 65 or 70 years of age the full responsibility for looking after them in their old age and of caring for them is to be thrown on the shoulders of the State. If so, we might find that it would lead to some very revolutionary changes. The primary responsibility for maintaining parents in their old age rests, in the first place, on the children of those parents who are in a position to maintain them, in the same way as the duty of maintaining children rests, in the first instance, on the parents. The State may come in, in view of the circumstances of the majority of the people, and may help the adult population to discharge its filial and parental obligation. But the primary obligation rests upon the sons and daughters of those old men and women to look after them and care for them and cherish them at the end of their days. As I say, in view of the well-known fact that many of these people are the parents of children living in comfortable circumstances in rural areas, I think that there was a binding obligation upon the Minister for Finance, when he was taking this money out of the common pool of taxation and providing it for the relief of persons in necessitous cases, to take steps to ensure that the supplemental allowances would be given only to those who in fact require them. That is the answer to all the criticism we have heard here as to the manner in which these supplemental allowances are being administered. Just in the same way as a person who got an old age pension had to prove that his means were not sufficient to maintain him, I cannot see that there is any stigma in asking a person who wants to supplement that old age pension to show that in fact he does require the supplementary allowance before the supplementary allowance is paid to him.
Another matter which was raised by a number of Deputies was the question of the mental hospital capitation grant, and it was suggested that the mental hospital capitation grant should be increased and that the State should bear the greater portion of the cost of maintaining patients in those hospitals. That proposal was extended by some Deputies to include not alone main roads but other roads, and the effect of their proposals was that the maintenance of these roads should be a charge on central funds. Now, I think it was Deputy Cogan who complained about the heavy burden imposed on local rates as a result of the making and maintenance of these roads.
Let us examine this question of raising revenue by means of rates, as compared with central taxation. It must be remembered that rates are a taxation upon property, and let us make no mistake about that. They are, as Dr. Ward observed to me, levied upon tangible assets or property which a man possesses in this country. If rates are levied on a man, they are levied on the property that he owns or occupies, and the basis on which these rates are levied and collected is the amount of property which that individual possesses. Now, in general, when it comes to the matter of central taxation, the larger part of it is not upon the property which individuals hold, so far as this country is concerned, at any rate, but is levied in the way of indirect taxation. I am sure that such taxation would amount to something more than 50 per cent., of the whole. You have indirect taxation on tobacco, beverages of one sort or another, and on many other commodities, such as tea and sugar which, at the moment, I admit, would only come to an infinitesimal amount; but the greater portion of taxation in the whole country is in the form of indirect taxation, and that, as I have already said, is a tax upon individuals. Now, what the Lord Mayor of Dublin, Deputy Martin O'Sullivan, who sits on the Labour Benches, was contending for, and evidently what other Labour Deputies, such as Deputy Corish, were contending for, was that we should transfer the burden of taxation from property owners to the individual, and that the money that is at present collected in the form of rates from property owners should be collected in the form of indirect taxation from every man, woman and child in the community. That is what those independent Deputies on the Labour Benches, such as the Lord Mayor, Deputy Martin O'Sullivan, Deputy Corish, and others, would seem to advocate, but I should like them to go back and try to justify that viewpoint before their own trade unions. When they talk about the meagre contribution which the State gives in the form of capitation grants for mental hospitals, let them go back and try to justify to their trade unions, and to the members of the Labour Party, the transferring of that burden of taxation from those who possess property and putting it on the backs of the working people of this country.
The same type of argument occurs in connection with the housing grants. At the present time, the amount that the State contributes in the way of housing grants, particularly in connection with the county boroughs, far exceeds the amount contributed by the cities concerned. In the City of Dublin, for instance—it is difficult to analyse the matter exhaustively—so far as my information goes, the central authority is making a greater provision, so far as the subsidising of houses for the working classes under the Act of 1932 is concerned, than the Dublin Corporation is. In addition to that, however, there are two very significant factors. The first one is that if the Dublin Corporation are subsidising houses, they are subsidising houses which are their own property, which will remain their own property, and which will be a source of income to the citizens of Dublin when the loans are paid off. The second point is that when the Dublin Corporation raises money to subsidise these housing schemes, or any other scheme, they raise that money by taxes on property, whereas, when the State raises such moneys, a large portion of these moneys must come out of indiscriminate taxation upon the whole community. When, therefore, Deputy Martin O'Sullivan, Deputy Corish and other Deputies who claim to speak for the people in the towns and cities, ask for authority to raise the rates for the provision of housing by these means, they are asking us to transfer the burden of taxation to the whole community. The same thing applies to the whole gamut of social welfare legislation, such as the provision of free milk, and so on, and when these Deputies ask us to give greater grants for such purposes they are asking us to relieve the mass of property owners and put the burden of taxation on the other people, who have no property, and whom we represent in this House.
Deputy Roddy mentioned that I had talked about providing motor roads on Continental standards. I think he said that, so far as the people of this State were concerned, we had made no provision whatever for that important section of the community upon whom we all, in the ultimate analysis, rely, to wit, the farmers. I think he said that, in effect, we had made no provision to meet the needs of the farmers, so far as horse-drawn traffic is concerned. I do not think Deputy Roddy was here when I was speaking and, accordingly, he must not have heard what I did say in regard to these new roads which we hope to construct, eventually, over a great number of years. If he had been here, he would have heard that we proposed to provide four classes of roads and that, in respect of three of those classes—Class One, Class Two and Class Three roads —we propose to provide for horse-drawn traffic on all of them. We could not provide a margin for slow or animal-drawn traffic on the Class Four roads—they are not wide enough to permit it—but in respect of three of the four classes I definitely gave the House the information—and no Deputy should have been under any misapprehension—that we were endeavouring to meet the problem of providing a safe pathway or roadway for horse-drawn or animal-drawn traffic in general, and Deputy Donnellan, for one, must have been aware of that. I am not saying that it can be done this year, or even next year, but I do say that, as soon as we can start on this matter of a new road-construction programme, we shall provide sufficient accommodation for those who have to use animals on the roads.
A considerable number of other points were raised by various Deputies. Deputy Donnellan, for instance, referred to the lack of accommodation for tuberculosis patients in certain institutions, and he referred particularly to the hospital position in the County of Galway.
Again, in one way or another, it was not possible to get ahead with the building of the regional hospital which has been planned for Galway but we have made, notwithstanding all our difficulties, certain plans which I think, when carried out and completed, will go a long way towards providing the additional accommodation which Deputy Donnellan rightly says is required in Galway. For instance, two dormitories which had been occupied by maids were vacated, redecorated and equipped to form two new 14-bed wards. Adjacent stores and sanitary accommodation were converted into auxiliary accommodation providing 28 beds. Plans are being prepared to provide a new two-storey block for the maids, who, because they were compelled to vacate their dormitories, had to get alternative accommodation elsewhere. As soon as the accommodation for the maids is provided, we shall have accommodation for 12 more patients in the rooms now occupied by the maids. The additional new maternity hospital is on the point of completion. When it is completed and occupied by the maternity and gynæcological patients, 35 beds will be available in the old maternity hospital for further patients. That will give us an additional 35 beds, or, all told, a total accommodation of 75 beds. It is true that sometimes this hospital is overcrowded to the extent of 80 patients but we hope that, by the end of this year, or at least before the House comes to consider this Estimate again, we shall have provided as full a solution as possible for the hospital problem in Galway. What we are doing in Galway we try to do in every other county to the extent of the resources at our disposal.
Deputy Dockrell complained in relation to Dublin housing that the housing by-laws were a generation out-of-date and had not been overhauled. The position, in fact, is that steps have been taken to bring these by-laws, which were originally made in 1901 and were revised in 1919, up-to-date. A draft copy of the new by-laws, strange to say, was received in the Department from the corporation today. The examination of the draft copy and necessary discussions with the corporation will be pushed forward and we shall have these new by-laws, I hope, in operation within a very short period.
Deputy O'Connor referred to the reconditioning work in the flats in Gardiner Street and elsewhere and suggested that we should push forward with this work more rapidly and on a greater scale. We have got to realise that this reconstruction programme was embarked on as an experiment and we had to feel our way. We are certainly impressing on the Corporation the need to push ahead with works of this nature and the Corporation have, in fact, made a compulsory purchase Order in respect of a number of other houses in Gardiner Street and Seán MacDermott Street with a view to reconditioning them on similar lines. There are, however, difficulties in connection with this work to the extent that we have to try to use as much as possible the existing materials in these houses. All sorts of devices and expedients have to be adopted by the architectural staff of the Corporation in order to eke out, as far as we possibly can, existing supplies of materials. This involves a certain amount of delay, but the delay means that we can get a greater number of flats and a greater amount of accommodation in the end.
Deputy Lynch referred to the action which I had to take in regard to three officers of the Killarney Mental Hospital. The officers in question were the cook, the assistant cook and the attendant in the stores. The position there was that those officers had direct, immediate and personal responsibility for the safe custody and proper control of coffee, sugar and tea issued for patients' meals, that their evidence was very unsatisfactory and in certain respects contradictory. They made statements to the auditor at the audit which were duly attested by them and put in writing. They afterwards furnished separate statements to other officers whose conduct was under investigation, which contradicted the statements which they had made when questioned by the auditor and, on oath, they testified that both of these statements, themselves contradictory statements, were true. I could not adopt the attitude of regarding that as a light matter. Each one of those officers was a link in a chain of responsibility, a chain of responsibility that extended from the resident medical superintendent right down to the lowest officer, to see that what was provided for the patients in the institution would go to the patients who were entitled to receive it. These people had that responsibility and, as I said, they made contradictory statements. They gave us no help or assistance whatever and, even on oath, they made statements, one or other of which must have been untrue. I think I was treating them leniently and mercifully when I allowed them to retire on pension, even if in one or two cases the retirement was a few years in advance of the normal retiring period. I cannot think that Deputy Lynch seriously meant me to reopen these cases. In any event, I could not do it, and I would not do it because we have to impress every officer in an institution of this sort, who is charged with the care and custody of people who are unable to look after themselves, with a full sense of responsibility to the patients under his control, or for whom he has any responsibility. Accordingly, when the auditors discover abuses, and investigations are being made to establish responsibility for these abuses, I cannot take up any other attitude than that of saying that any member of the staff of an institution of this sort who does not place himself fully and freely at the disposal of the auditor, who does not give him every assistance and all the information he seeks, will be held by me to be responsible and will be dealt with accordingly.
