Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Jun 1944

Vol. 94 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Old Age Pension Allowance—Adjournment Motion.

Mr. Murphy

I asked your permission, Sir, to raise the subject matter of Question No. 18 on the Order Paper, because I regarded it as a matter of very great importance at present for a number of reasons which I propose to set out as briefly as I can. I asked the question for several reasons, the first being to try to ascertain from the Parliamentary Secretary if he is aware of the very considerable dissatisfaction that exists throughout the country with the method by which the emergency old age pension allowances are being investigated and paid. My second reason was that it appears to me that an injustice is being inflicted on applicants for these allowances in that they have to undergo a further means test to satisfy the local authorities that they qualify for these allowances, and the third reason is that I believe—and I think this opinion is widely shared throughout the country —that these allowances ought to be paid in the post office to persons in receipt of 10/- per week.

I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that he was not aware that there was any dissatisfaction. I am afraid I can only differ from him on that point. I do not intend to say anything further on it, except that I am quite satisfied that there is very considerable dissatisfaction with the whole scheme. It was intimated in the Press a considerable time ago that the allowances would be payable from early in April. In fact, in certain parts of the country, the allowances have not yet been paid, or at least were not paid up to last Saturday. It is also a fact that a number of people were unaware of the method by which they should seek payment and were unaware, as I have personal knowledge, that they could be regarded as eligible for such allowances. It is a further fact—and I say this with considerable pride—that a large number of people would suffer any humiliation in the matter of poverty rather than apply to the public assistance authority for assistance. I am glad to know that that is so, and I say it without desiring to cast the least reflection on the unfortunate people who have no option but to apply for home assistance, because I think their position is one which commands sympathy in every quarter of the House and outside it.

The applicant for an old age pension has to satisfy the pensions committee or the investigation officer, and ultimately the Parliamentary Secretary himself, that he or she does not possess means exceeding £15 per year. I think it would not require very much imagination to regard that as a state of necessity, without any further inquisitions into the means of a person in that position. Means of £15 odd per year is the figure beyond which it is not possible to get an old age pension of 10/- per week and all the public demands in recent months have been made with a view to an alteration or raising of that amount. When the question of an emergency old age pension allowance comes up for consideration, that, in my opinion, is the figure which should he regarded as rendering all applicants for this money eligible. The fact that they have 10/- per week is proof that their means do not exceed £15 per year. I am satisfied that an applicant has to prove the most complete poverty before he or she can qualify for this allowance and I regard that as a reversal of the whole policy in relation to the payment of this allowance. An arrangement should have been made to pay this money at the post office. The present method is unsatisfactory. It is unfair to the old people and it tends to maintain for them the stigma which many of them rightly object to.

There is nothing further I need say on the matter, except to ask the Parliamentary Secretary very sincerely to have the whole matter reconsidered, to take steps at the very earliest possible date to have it reconsidered in such a way that these allowances will be paid at the post office, that the people who receive 10/- per week at present, having had to submit to a means test already, should not be compelled to submit to an additional means test—a rather odious means test in certain cases—in order to obtain this money. I urge him to put the matter beyond all doubt and to consent to the money being paid to the post office and to leave whatever financial adjustments are necessary to be undertaken afterwards so as to give effect to the spirit of the scheme in the manner in which it should be given effect to.

Mr. Broderick

I should like to supplement what Deputy Murphy has said. The Parliamentary Secretary has stated that he is not aware of any dissatisfaction, but he ought to be aware of it on the basis of evidence submitted by the Cork County Council in a letter setting out all the points in respect of which there is dissatisfaction which were brought to the notice of the Minister for Local Government during last week's debate and to which he did not reply. Persons have to apply to the home assistance officer for payment of this half-crown allowance. The pension is payable at the post office and frequently the home assistance officer lives six or seven miles away, which means that applicants have to pay ? each way in bus fares, so that they get nothing at all. The council of which both Deputy Murphy and I have the honour to be members has made an offer to the Minister, which we would like him to consider very carefully, and that is that the pension officer should pay out the 2/6 on our undertaking to reimburse the State. I think that is the best way of getting over the difficulty. Again, to emphasise what Deputy Murphy said on the question of the means test, your letter to the managers of the different counties——

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not write any such letter. Perhaps the Deputy refers to the Minister's or Parliamentary Secretary's letter?

Mr. Broderick

I was referring to the Minister's letter.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should address the Chair.

Mr. Broderick

The Minister's letter was of a very rigid nature. In the first place it said that they must await applications, and no steps were taken to inform the people that they were entitled to this 2/6—no steps other than the activities of various politicians going through the country. Many people are still unaware that they are entitled to this amount. The next point is that it is obligatory on the manager to satisfy himself, on the conditions laid down by the Minister, that those people are entitled to this benefit, which brings us to the second means test. I think all those points negative any benefits that are to be derived from the extra 2/6. In the first place, there is the humiliation of having to apply to the board of assistance; in the second place, there is the difficulty of collecting the amount owing to the necessity of going to the home assistance office; thirdly, there is the question of the means test. All those things go as far as possible to negative the benefits of the scheme.

Mr. Corish

When this scheme was first announced through the newspapers I thought that the old age pensioners were to be paid this extra 2/6 in consequence of the increased cost of living. It was understood by everybody who was drawing the old age pension that that amount would be automatically paid with the pension, and even now a great many people are not aware that it is necessary for them to get an application form from the county manager before they can claim this extra 2/6. I know many people in my own native county who, up to yesterday, were not aware that it was necessary for them to fill up an application form. Like Deputy Murphy and Deputy Broderick, I know many people who will never make such an application. They have never before applied for home help—they would consider it a humiliation to have to do so. We all know that a great many poor people in this country have been striving to live for years, almost in poverty, rather than apply for home assistance. As Deputy Murphy has pointed out, it is absolutely necessary for some people to apply for home help, and there is really no disgrace about it. Nevertheless, there are many people in the country who are too proud to make such an application.

In the first instance, before the old age pension was granted, a very rigorous means test was applied. Anybody who is a member of an old age pensions' committee knows the gruelling time that an applicant for old age pension has to go through. In those circumstances, one would think that the extra 2/6 would automatically be paid. Those people have to go to the post office on Thursday or Friday as the case may be to draw their pensions, and they should not be asked to go to the home assistance office to draw the 2/6. Owing to the way in which this scheme is being administered, the Minister and his Department have done nothing but humiliate those whom it is supposed to benefit. Last week, when the Estimate for the Department of Local Government was under consideration, various Deputies drew the Minister's attention to the position which existed in the country in consequence of the way this scheme was being applied, and the Minister did not give any satisfactory reply. As a matter of fact, he dealt very lightly with it in the course of his speech. I join with Deputy Murphy and Deputy Broderick now in urging the Parliamentary Secretary to ask the Minister and his Department to make some Order whereby this 2/6 would be given automatically, through the Post Office, to those who are already in receipt of old age pensions, and who, apparently, even the Minister and his Department think are entitled to an increased sum owing to the increased cost of living.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Dr. Ward)

It is refreshing to observe the innocence with which Deputies approach this question, in the light of the fact that the Estimate providing the money to make this supplementary allowance operative was before the House as late as last week, and that this specific matter was raised by many Deputies and dealt with in considerable detail by the Minister in his reply. The House unanimously approved of the Minister's Estimate—and mind you, that Estimate included under sub-head J, as I mentioned to Deputy Murphy to-day, the condition that "the supplemental allowances will be payable by public assistance authorities to persons of the classes indicated who are members of necessitous households, and reside in areas to which the scheme of food allowances (provided for in Vote 71) does not extend." That scheme of administration was accepted by the House as late as last week.

Mr. Norton

There was criticism of it, though.

Dr. Ward

I am not denying it.

Mr. Norton

To vote against it would mean they would get nothing at all.

Dr. Ward

Could we not bring in a new Estimate?

Mr. Norton

Why did you not?

Dr. Ward

Could you not have referred it back on the grounds that you disapproved of the proposed method of administration of those supplementary allowances? I do not think it was beyond the wit of Deputy Norton to find a means, if the majority of this House was prepared to support him, of forcing the Minister to adopt an alternative method of administration. The fact remains that, as late as last week, the House unanimously accepted this method of administration.

Mr. Broderick

On a point of order.

Dr. Ward

The time is rather short for points of order.

Mr. Broderick

Very well.

Dr. Ward

I believe that, if Deputy Murphy had been here last week and had heard the Minister's reply, this question would not have been raised on the adjournment. The Minister fully explained the position last week, but Deputy Murphy was not here, and now we have a repetition of the debate on an Estimate which occupied a considerable portion of the time of the House last week. There is very little I can add to what the Minister said then. In fact, I do not think I can usefully add anything. I realise that Deputy Murphy has not yet had an opportunity of reading what the Minister said. I do think that, when he reads the Minister's speech, he will appreciate the futility of raising this matter again by means of a question on the adjournment.

Mr. Broderick

May I say, in reply to the Parliamentary Secretary, that the Cork County Council offered to reimburse the State?

Dr. Ward

Perhaps Deputy Broderick would allow me to make the very brief statement that I have to make. It is true that only members of necessitous households will be eligible for this supplementary allowance. That is set out in the sub-head under which the money is provided. The Dáil has approved of that and, therefore, I do not know how Deputies propose to alter that condition. It is true that the scheme provides that 25 per cent. of the cost is to be raised by the local authority out of the rates, and that the House has approved of the administration of this supplementary allowance through the public assistance authority. If the public assistance authority is to be responsible for making a rate to meet 25 per cent. of the cost, then it must make the necessary inquiries in order to satisfy itself that the people who are going to benefit by the supplementary allowance will, in fact, be in need of it. That is all it is required to do. Presumably, Deputies are aware that this supplementary allowance is not in substitution for home assistance, and neither is it necessary that an applicant for the supplementary allowance should be in receipt of home assistance. But it is necessary that the public assistance authority should investigate each claim, and satisfy itself that there is need in the home in which this 2/6 per week is to be added to the pension. I may mention that the 2/6 per week may be paid in cases other than those receiving the 10/- a week pension. A public assistance authority may find that recipients of a lesser amount of pension than 10/- a week are in need of the additional 2/6. So far the discussion seems to have been based on the assumption that only recipients of 10/- a week will be eligible for the allowance.

Mr. Murphy

That decision has already been given in certain areas.

Dr. Ward

I am not accountable for that decision.

Mr. Murphy

I grant that.

Dr. Ward

I would draw the attention of the House to two points particularly in the letter which was issued on the 16th March, 1944, on this matter. The first point to which I wish to draw the attention of the House is in reply to the statement made by Deputy Broderick, that the local authority must await an application from a proposed beneficiary. The letter says:—

"The local authorities may await a submission by pensioners or persons in receipt of disablement benefit resident in the rural portion of their districts of applications for supplementary allowance."

"The local authorities may await". Now, there is a difference, I think, between the word "may" and the word "must", and I think I may leave it at that. Clearly, if a local authority is already satisfied, through the machinery of its public assistance administration or public assistance officers, that certain old age pensioners are in immediate and urgent want, it need not necessarily wait for an application within the terms of that letter.

Mr. Broderick

In effect, it does.

Dr. Ward

I would also like to draw the attention of Deputies to another paragraph in the letter which says:

"Any supplementary allowance given must not be in substitution for any home assistance which may ordinarily be given by the public assistance authority in cases coming within the categories mentioned."

Now, if the terms of that letter have been departed from: if the spirit of that communication has not been observed, well, that is a matter that we can look into when we receive complaints on that score. I do not question the accuracy of Deputy Broderick's statement. I have not personal knowledge of it, but I am quite sure that what he says is strictly true: that the Cork County Council, the local authority of which he is a member, has made representations on behalf of the public assistance authority. What I want to convey to Deputy Murphy is that we have not had complaints from private individuals, but local authorities have complained because they would prefer not to have the trouble of administering this supplementary allowance. I do not deny that we have had complaints from local authorities, but I repeat that we have not had complaints from applicants who would be entitled to benefit under the scheme.

Mr. Broderick

You have that letter from the Cork County Council in the Department?

Dr. Ward

I am not denying that, though I do want to say that it has not come to my personal knowledge. I do not doubt for a moment what the Deputy says, but that does not alter the position. My statement was that individuals have not complained. Presumably, one local authority has complained. I cannot hold out any hope to the House that there will be any alteration in the administration of this scheme. As long as the local authority is responsible for a proportion of the cost of these supplementary allowances, it will have to satisfy itself that the beneficiaries are entitled to benefit. The local authority will have to raise 25 per cent. of the cost, and the State will refund 75 per cent. of the cost of the scheme. It is unlikely, until, at any rate, we have had much more experience of the administration of this benefit, that there will be any alteration in the method of administration.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.27 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 28th June, 1944.