Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Nov 1944

Vol. 95 No. 5

Comptroller and Auditor-General (Amendment) Bill, 1944—Second Stage.

An tAire Airgeadais (Seán T. O Ceallaigh)

Tairgin go léitear an Bille den dara huair anois. Bille í seo nach gá mórán agallamha a dhéanamh air. The purpose of the Bill is to rectify certain technical defects in Section 2 of the Comptroller and Auditor-General Act, 1923, relating to the pensionable position of the Comptroller and Auditor General. That section of the 1923 Bill provided for the payment of the salary of the Comptroller and Auditor General, but while it is indicated that the salary was to be a charge on the Central Fund, it gave no direction as to where the pension was to be paid from. This Bill proposes that the pension to be paid should be paid from the same fund in the same way as the salary. In the recollection of the House, the first Comptroller and Auditor General took tired at the end of the last financial year. The new Auditor General took over control at the beginning of the financial year, so that, up to now, the pension of the retired Comptroller and Auditor General has been paid out of the Contingency Fund. We want to get the permission of the House to regularise that matter.

Opportunity was taken to straighten out another matter about which there is some difficulty in the principal Bill. There is certain ambiguity in the text of sub-section (4) of Section 2 of the principal Act.

Mr. Dillon

What is the ambiguity?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The intention of that sub-section was to secure that a civil servant appointed to the post of Comptroller and Auditor General would not be in a worse position as regards superannuation than if he had not been so appointed. Effect was given to this intention by providing that the superannuation terms which applied to him when a civil servant would, if he so elected, continue to apply to him in his capacity as Comptroller and Auditor General in lieu of the normal terms prescribed in the principal Act. For this purpose, his service as Comptroller and Auditor General is to be treated as Civil Service for the purpose of award under the Superannuation Acts. It was not quite clear that the sub-section, as it appeared in the principal Act, fully covered the granting of a lump sum on retirement or a gratuity on death, both of which are essential features of the Civil Service superannuation code, and Section 2 of the Bill is intended to put that matter beyond doubt. That is the whole purpose of the Bill.

Mr. Dillon

I should like to raise one query with the Minister and to direct the attention of the House to an important aspect of this matter. My recollection is that the pensions of judges are protected by much the same provisions as protect their salaries, that is, that neither Dáil Éireann nor the Executive can touch the pension of a judge except by the same machinery by which his salary would be touched, a two-thirds majority, I think. That provision is made in order to ensure the unquestioned independence of the judiciary vis-a-vis the Executive.

I should like to know from the Minister whether the principal Act as amended by this Bill will give the same protection to the Comptroller and Auditor-General's pension as is given to his salary. His salary is charged upon the Central Fund, and the Comptroller and Auditor-General is an officer of the Constitution, and it would be well for the House to remember that his prime function is to report to the Dáil, if, on examining the accounts, he comes to the conclusion that the Government of the day, or any Department thereof, is improperly spending public money. It is, therefore, very necessary, and it is recognised by making him an officer of the Constitution, that his independence should be absolutely guaranteed.

We have taken, I understand, every precaution to guarantee his independence during his tenure of office, but were it contemplated by a Government to bring pressure to bear on him to assent to certain procedures which he ought to question, it would be possible to bring pressure upon him through his pension in anticipation, unless he were reassured that he held pension rights by the same sacrosanct title as that by which he held his office. If the Minister would reassure me on that point I do not think any other matter of substance arises on the Bill.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I think I can assure the Deputy and the House that his pension being a charge on the Central Fund, as his salary is, there would be no way, except by an Act of the House, of interfering with it.

General Mulcahy

I understand Deputy Dillon's point to be that, whereas an Act could be passed by a majority of the House, he considers there should be the same safeguard as he suggests exists with regard to judges' pensions, that is, a two-thirds majority of the House.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Is that so with regard to pensions?

General Mulcahy

I understood that that was the suggestion of the Deputy.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

It is not so with regard to judges' pensions, I am told.

Mr. Dillon

We have built up every kind of protection around the salary of a judge in order to ensure that he will confront the Executive, should the necessity arise, fearlessly. If we leave that extraordinary loophole by which it is open to the Dáil or any Government's majority in the Dáil to deprive him of his pension, surely we are making a very serious mistake. The Minister's salary and a judge's salary consists in part of the pay he receives each month and in part of a title to a life pension which he is building up during his tenure of office. It is admitted that he forgoes the larger salary which he would get if he had not pension prospects in order to acquire the right to claim a pension from the State. Surely we are leaving a very serious gap if we leave it within the discretion of a bare majority of Dáil Éireann to take from any constitutional officer, be he Comptroller and Auditor-General or High Court Judge, his entire pension. It would be possible to say to the Comptroller and Auditor-General at any stage: "Here is a new departure for which we want the sanction of your office", and were the Comptroller and Auditor-General to decline that sanction, would it not be possible to say to him: "Either you do this or we will take steps to ensure that at the time of your retirement you will get no pension."?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

As I understand it, the tenure of office of judges is guarded in a very special way. Special provisions are required to interfere with their tenure of office, but the pensions of judges are provided by statute and could be taken away by statute. It is their tenure of office which is very specially guarded. Judges cannot be removed from office, except by a certain vote of the House—a majority of both Houses—but pension rights are provided by statute and could be taken away by statute. The same applies to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Question put and agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

Committee Stage?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There is no hurry about it, but if the House would agree, I should like to get the remaining stages now.

General Mulcahy

In view of the very interesting point which has arisen and in order that we may learn something, perhaps the Committee Stage could be postponed until to-morrow, because we should all like to know whether the position with regard to judges and the Comptroller and Auditor-General is that while we could remove them from office——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies cannot raise the question of judges on this Bill.

Mr. Dillon

I think the House would appreciate a short statement from the Minister as to what the exact position is in respect of the salaries of such constitutional officers.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

If the Ceann Comhairle permitted me to deal with the question of judges.

Mr. Dillon

Of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who is a constitutional officer.

General Mulcahy

It can be put into a sentence and the Minister will get the sentence through.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 9th November.