Could the Minister tell us anything about the matters we were trying to find out yesterday?
Committee on Finance. - Comptroller and Auditor-General (Amendment) Bill, 1944—Committee and Final Stages.
Section 1 agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."
Certainly. I do not know if Deputies had an opportunity of looking up the Bunreacht since yesterday, but, if they had, they would notice that Article 33 deals with the Comptroller and Auditor-General. Sub-section (2) says —
"The Comptroller and Auditor-General shall be appointed by the President on the nomination of Dáil Eireann."
Sub-section (5) (1) says: —
"The Comptroller and Auditor-General shall not be removed from office except for stated misbehaviour or incapacity, and then only upon resolutions passed by Dáil Éireann and by Seanad Eireann calling for his removal."
Sub-section (6) says: —
Subject to the foregoing, the terms and conditions of the office of the Comptroller and Auditor-General shall be determined by law."
Article 35 is the article which deals with the courts and with the appointment of judges. Sub-section (2) says: —
"All judges shall be independent in the exercise of their judicial functions and subject only to this Constitution and the law."
Sub-section (4) (1) says: —
"A judge of the Supreme Court or the High Court shall not be removed from office except for stated misbehaviour or incapacity, and then only upon resolutions passed by Dáil Eireann and by Seanad Eireann calling for his removal."
That is exactly similar to the sub-section which deals with a similar matter in relation to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. Sub-section (5) says: —
"The remuneration of a judge shall not be reduced during his continuance in office."
That sub-section, or anything similar to it, is not contained in the article of the Bunreacht, which deals with the Comptroller and Auditor-General. In the two cases, except for that difference, the tenure of office is the same. The salary and pension are subject to statute law. They are not constitutional matters, and can, therefore, be altered.
I wonder would the draftsman of the Bill make up his mind as to whether he is referring to the Auditor-General or to the Auditor General, because, in the Long Title to the Bill, he spells it as "Auditor-General," while in the section it is spelled "Auditor General." You had better make up your mind which you want to have. Has the Minister's attention been directed to that odd misprint, or is it a misprint?
I had not noticed that. I do not think the hyphen should be there.
So long as you make up your minds, it is all the same to me.
Is that the only amendment the Deputy has?
No, since the Minister draws me. To secure a proper status for this officer, we would require a constitutional amendment. It did occur to me that we might provide this officer of State with an independence of the Executive which would be effective by legislation, but I have since reflected on the matter and have realised that the sovereign rule of every Parliament constituted as ours is is that anything we can enact we can repeal, and therefore you cannot give security by an Act of this Oireachtas to an officer of State as against the Executive. The only means of doing it is a constitutional amendment which it is not in the power of a Government majority in the House to make. We have given that security to the judges and I believe that if the attention of the House had been directed to that question when we were dealing with the Comptroller and Auditor-General, they would have given similar protection to him. I invite the Tánaiste to direct the attention of the Taoiseach and of the Government to that matter, because I do not think the Minister for Finance underestimates the importance of the functions of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. So long as things are proceeding along lines of average normality, his duties are more or less routine. But a situation might arise in which he would be the only channel through which Dáil Éireann would receive notice of grave matters of which the Dáil should take seisin at the earliest possible opportunity and, if the Executive of that day were reluctant to allow the Dáil to get knowledge of these matters, the precedent set up would enable an unscrupulous Executive to bring very heavy pressure to bear upon the Comptroller and Auditor-General to take the Executive's views and to refrain from demurring to some particular activity that they contemplated in his annual report. Therefore, I believe that, if we are to have a Comptroller and Auditor-General, we should have an effective one and that he should be a person untouchable by the Executive in his emoluments or in his position, in strong analogy with the High Court judge.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 3 and 4 and the Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Question —"That the Bill be received for final consideration"— put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
For the information of Deputy Dillon, I might say that we were obliged in the Long Title and in other matters relating to the 1923 Act which we had to refer to in our Bill, to quote accurately the 1923 Act, which does contain a hyphen. You would have to bring in a special amendment to knock out the hyphen. I am afraid that, despite Deputy Dillon's disagreement and mine, it will have to remain.
I am afraid you are going to get yourself into an awkward mess. You may have two or three Bills relating to the Comptroller and Auditor-General and in some of them you will be referring to the Long Title of this amending Bill and in others to the Long Title of the original Act, and it would be worth while putting in an amendment in the Seanad to this Bill putting these two Bills into conformity, because otherwise you may have some awkward nuisance arising through the wrong terms being referred to in subsequent amending legislation. A sub-section to this Bill would do it, declaring that the Comptroller and Auditor-General is to be known hereafter as the Comptroller and Auditor-General in accordance with his description in the Bunreacht, where it appears with a hyphen, and thereafter there is a regular procedure for any draftsman referring to that officer.
I will bear the Deputy's recommendation in mind.
Question put and agreed to.
This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution.