Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Nov 1944

Vol. 95 No. 9

Tribunal on Supply and Distribution of Milk in Dublin Area: Motion.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Dr. Ward)

I move:—

That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for inquiring into the following definite matter of urgent public importance, that is to say:—

the supply of milk to distributors and consumers in the area consisting of the county borough of Dublin, the county of Dublin, and the urban district of Bray, including in particular:—

(a) the existing arrangements—

(i) for securing that such supply is adequate, pure and wholesome,

(ii) for the economical and efficient marketing and distribution of such supply,

(iii) for making such supply available to consumers at reasonable prices, and

(iv) for safeguarding the interests of the persons (including consumers) concerned in such supply, marketing and distribution; and

(b) the improvements (if any) which are practicable and desirable in such arrangements.

An Ceann Comhairle

In paragraph (a) there was an error, as something was omitted in the printing. The paragraph should read:—

(iv) for safeguarding the interests of the persons (including consumers) concerned in such supply, marketing and distribution; and...

The words "marketing and distribution; and" were omitted.

Dr. Ward

It is scarcely necessary to explain in detail the purposes of the motion, as its terms are self-explanatory. The facts are that the milk supply in the Dublin area at times is inadequate, particularly in the winter months, and marketing conditions are not satisfactory. It is considered that distribution is open to better organisation. The condition in which milk is reaching the consumer leaves very much to be desired from the public health point of view, and, in addition, there are complaints as to price. Generally, the position of the Dublin milk supply is entirely unsatisfactory at present, and the setting up of this tribunal, with its extensive powers of inquiry, appears to be the most effective step we could take to ascertain what improvements in marketing, production, distribution and the standard of cleanliness and wholesomeness of our milk can be brought about.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Will the question of the fat content of milk be examined by this tribunal?

Dr. Ward

Not necessarily. That would not ordinarily be a matter for determination by a tribunal such as this. The fat content of milk is already determined by law and this tribunal may not deal with that matter. It will deal with the matters set out here: the adequacy, purity and wholesomeness of the supply, the methods of production, distribution and so on, and will recommend such improvements in these various matters as they deem wise.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary is taking this step. In the district in which I live, people have stated that they have seen milk been poured from cans into bottles, cardboard stoppers stuck in the bottles and the bottles then distributed to householders. That is quite a common thing.

Dr. Ward

I am aware of that.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

On the question of the fat content, in summer, milk is supposed to be richer than in winter, but in actual fact consumers never seem to get the benefit of the richer milk in summer. The milk is thin in winter, but does not seem to get proportionately richer in summer. Whether this tribunal could examine that matter, I do not know, but it is a fact.

Dr. Ward

I do not think that would come within the terms of reference of the tribunal, inasmuch as the fat and mineral content of milk is determined by a particular code of law. If, in fact, the minimum standards of fat prescribed by law are deemed to be too low, it would be a matter for amendment of the Food and Drugs Act. It is not many years since amendments of the Food and Drugs Act in relation to milk were before the House and the whole matter of fat content was very fully discussed. The standards fixed at that time were deemed to be reasonable, taking all factors into consideration. That is not the purpose of this inquiry—it is not the primary purpose at least—and I do not think it is necessary to put the particular onus on this tribunal of examining that particular problem.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

The minimum fat standard seems to have become the actual maximum which the consumer gets. I do not know whether the law could deal with that.

Mr. Byrne

I agree that this is a very proper step to take and I should like to ask whether it is possible to call this tribunal together at a very early date. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary is aware that in certain parts of Dublin at the moment, there is a scarcity of milk and that in some areas people have to travel long distances to get a supply. In view of that, I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see to it that this tribunal will hold a meeting at a very early date and examine the position with a view to dealing with this scarcity.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Will this be a public inquiry?

Dr. Ward

Yes.

Mr. Hughes

Deputy Dockrell may not appreciate the difficulty of getting protein at the moment, which would have something to do with the fat content. I take it this tribunal is to examine the whole situation in relation to the supply of milk to the City of Dublin from the production area.

Dr. Ward

The matters are all set out in the motion.

Mr. Hughes

Could the Parliamentary Secretary say when we will get any information as to the personnel of the tribunal and as to how it is to be constituted, that is, whether consumers and producers will be represented?

Dr. Ward

I cannot give any definite information on that point, inasmuch as its constitution has not yet been decided, but I would say that the tribunal would consist of not more than five and not less than three persons. Personally, I think three would probably be sufficient, but I need not enter into that matter as no firm decisions have been reached in regard to it. So far as the actual personnel is concerned, that, too, is a matter which has yet to be determined, but I should like, if possible, to get as chairman a judge of the High Court. I think we would need a bacteriologist and then arises the question, if we are to have a tribunal of three, what qualifications the third person should have. The Deputy mentioned consumers and I can only say in that regard that we are all consumers, so that each member of the tribunal could be held to represent consumers. The members of the tribunal will not in fact represent any particular interests.

General Mulcahy

The housekeeper, the woman of the house, is a particular type of consumer. Will she be represented?

Dr. Ward

She might, through her husband.

General Mulcahy

Do I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary that it is intended to confine this tribunal to men?

Dr. Ward

Not necessarily, but it will be open to any and every interest, including the housewife or her representative, to come forward and give evidence.

General Mulcahy

From the point of view of the collective mind of this tribunal, will the Parliamentary Secretary consider appointing a housewife as a member?

Dr. Ward

It is all right to consider it, but I will not give any undertaking that it will be done.

General Mulcahy

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that it is very important.

Mr. Byrne

Would the Parliamentary Secretary say anything with regard to the shortage in Dublin?

Dr. Ward

According to my information, there is no immediate shortage.

Mr. Byrne

If I give the Parliamentary Secretary proof, will he inquire into it?

Dr. Ward

Certainly.

Mr. Allen

Might I ask if such matters as costs of production and all ancillary matters will be taken into consideration?

Dr. Ward

Yes, every possible aspect.

Mr. Allen

And also the costings in relation to cheap milk and so on? Will the tribunal adjudicate on that aspect?

Dr. Ward

The terms of reference are, I think, as wide as it is possible to construct them.

Mr. M. O'Sullivan

Is it envisaged that the tribunal will examine the conditions under which milk is produced, particularly as the Dublin supply is drawn mainly from outside the county?

Dr. Ward

It is.

Mr. Cosgrave

There is a good deal of congestion in the courts and I take it the Parliamentary Secretary will take adequate precautions in relation to appointing a High Court judge as chairman.

Dr. Ward

I should like the House to understand that I merely gave a general indication of lines of thought. It might not be possible to get a High Court judge at all, but I think it would be desirable to have somebody with legal training on the tribunal.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Would the Parliamentary Secretary consider the appointment of a member of the medical profession?

Dr. Ward

When I mentioned a bacteriologist, I had in mind a medical practitioner with specialist qualifications.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

I was thinking more of somebody with a keener appreciation of the importance of pure milk to the individual, such as a children's doctor.

Dr. Ward

There are so many interests which might be represented that the tribunal would be very large if we gave them all direct representation. It will be open to every interest to give evidence on oath.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

I suppose the Parliamentary Secretary has considered carefully why he has confined the inquiry to this area—practically the County of Dublin.

Dr. Ward

No, it is not. It is the Dublin milk district—the City and County of Dublin and Bray—because it constitutes a definite unit. The City of Dublin is the most urgent problem that is facing us with regard to the milk supply.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

What occurs to me is, will the Parliamentary Secretary afterwards be able to apply those findings and those standards to other parts of the country?

Dr. Ward

We do not know yet. I could not answer that, because we do not know what the findings will be.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

The point I wish to make is, that you might quite easily have the position that producers might not like to send milk to Dublin. You might find that the last state was worse than the first. I take it the idea is to raise the standard.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary is he not aware that there is a great shortage of milk in some of the larger provincial towns as well as in the Dublin district?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This motion does not deal with that. It is a very specific motion.

Mr. L.J. Walsh

It is my duty to bring it to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think it would need a special motion.

Motion put and agreed to.