Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 Dec 1944

Vol. 95 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 5—Office of the Minister for Finance.

Tairgím:—

Go ndeontar suim breise nach mó na £10 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú Márta, 1945, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Oifig an Aire Airgeadais, maraon le hOifig an Phágh-mháistir Ghene-rálta.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1945, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Finance, including the Pay-master-General's Office.

Deputies will have noticed from the details on the face of this Estimate that its presentation to the Dáil is due to additional provision for bonus and emergency bonus. The amount involved is inconsiderable and normally would be capable of being met from savings on the original Vote. A Supplementary Estimate would not have been necessary in the normal course, but I thought it desirable to put down the present token Estimate to enable me to make a statement to the Dáil in relation to Civil Service bonus.

Following consideration of representations made by Civil Service staff representatives over a prolonged period on the question of bonus, the Government, after having given the matter very careful consideration, and, I may say, not without some hesitation, have decided that, as from 1st January, 1945, Civil Service sliding-scale bonus shall be calculated on the basis of a bonus figure of 110 instead of 85, which is the present figure. The cost of this concession is etimated at £500,000 a year.

The bonus figure of 110 is the rate which would in the normal course have applied on 7th May, 1941, when the pay of outside workers was stabilised by Government Order. It was the original intention of the Government that all wages should be stabilised at the same time, if possible, or, failing this, that general stabilisation should be achieved within a short period. Owing to the position of the Civil Service, concerning which all the relevant data was readily available, it was possible to proceed with stabilisation of Civil Service salaries and wages almost immediately and the Civil Service (Stabilisation of Bonus) Regulations, which were made on 26th June, 1940, stabilised Civil Service bonus at the figure of 85 as from the 1st July, 1940, on which date, through the operation of the sliding scale, the bonus figure would have been due to rise to 105. Unavoidable delay occurred in the stabilisation of outside wages and the general Standstill Order was not made until 7th May, 1941, over ten months later than the date of Civil Service stabilisation. The position is, therefore, that, whereas outside workers were allowed to obtain increases in pay without any restriction up to 7th May, 1941, Civil Service sliding-scale bonus (which was designed to compensate for the increase in the cost of living since 1914) has been pegged at the figure of 85 since 1st July, 1940. The present sliding-scale bonus concession is designed to remedy this position as from 1st January next.

As regards emergency bonus, outside workers are at present allowed, under Emergency Powers (No. 260) (Fourth Amendment) Order, 1943, an increase in the wages they had on 7th May, 1941, of a maximum amount of 11/- a week by way of emergency bonus. The present maximum rates of Civil Service emergency bonus on the other hand, are 10/- a week (married) and 8/-a week (unmarried) for whole-time officers whose total remuneration does not exceed £500 a year, inclusive; and 8/- a week (married) and 6/- a week (unmarried) for part-time officers whose total remuneration does not exceed £365 a year, inclusive. The grant to civil servants of a further 1/- a week all round merely equates, as regards emergency bonus, the position of the married civil servant under £500 a year with that of other sections of the community, whose emergency bonus is governed by the Standstill Orders. If the Government is successful in its efforts to prevent a further rise in the cost of living, the need to modify the Standstill Orders to provide further increases in emergency bonus will disappear.

The differentiation between married and unmarried civil servants and the ceilings of £500 (whole-time officers) and £365 (part-time officers) will still continue so far as emergency bonus is concerned, but, in applying the ceilings, the addition made to sliding-scale bonus will not be reckoned. Neither the marriage differentiation nor the ceilings apply in the case of awards made by the tribunals set up to inquire into increases of pay in outside occupations.

As I have explained, the increases will merely have the effect of equating the position of civil servants with that of other wage-earning members of the community as regards emergency wage increases, and it is the intention of the Government that the concessions are to be considered as final for the duration of the emergency. It is to be specially borne in mind that civil servants, unlike most other sections of the community, had, since 1920, been conditioned to remuneration based on the sliding-scale bonus system, and this operated considerably to their disadvantage during the period when their sliding-scale bonus figure dropped to as low a level as 50.

Deputies will recall that, when introducing the Budget for the current year, I spoke at some length of the problem of inflation and emphasised the necessity for taking all possible measures to restrict this evil to the narrowest compass compatible with the necessities of the situation in the difficult conditions imposed by the present emergency. It was for this reason that, as I have already mentioned, the Government hesitated before deciding in favour of the increases in bonus which are now proposed for the Civil Service.

The Government has the problem of inflation constantly before its mind and it realises that the proposed in creates in Civil Service remuneration, though fully justified having regard to the considerations I have mentioned, will tend to aggravate the position to a certain extent. In the Government's view this is all the more reason why in the future the most stringent measures are called for in order to prevent any further emergency increases in wages and salaries. The concessions now being granted ought to remove the sense of grievance which civil servants have felt because of the stabilisation of their pay before the general stabilisation of wages. The Government considers it essential to maintain, if at all practicable, the present limits of emergency bonus allowable under existing Standstill Orders; and, of course, the figure at which the sliding scale bonus for civil servants is now to be stabilised by statutory regulations will not be increased further.

The Government, no doubt, has had its conscience moved a bit in the matter of the wrong done to civil servants when their wages and salaries were stabilised earlier than the rest of the community, but it seems rather glib for the Minister to say that there is now recognition of that fact by the Government and that the intention to make amendment for it in some way from January 1st should remove all dissatisfaction. It may remove a certain amount of dissatisfaction, but how is it going to remove the debts? If the Minister knows anything about the position a large number of civil servants of all classes are in as a result of the stabilisation of their bonus, on the one hand, and the shocking rise in the cost of living on the other hand, he must realise that anybody who has responsibility for a home, not to talk of a family, has gone very deeply into debt following the shocking rise in the cost of living within the last few years and the stabilisation of their remuneration. I do not want to confuse the situation with figures of any kind, because the facts should stand out boldly enough to anybody who has responsibility for a house or a family. With regard to civil servants of all kinds, the fact is that anybody who has any knowledge of his neighbours can get plenty of information about the situation.

I ask Deputies to look at the Book of Estimates, page viii, where information is given with regard to the basic salary, that is the ordinary remuneration of the various classes of civil servants, and also the bonus. Take the case of a person in receipt of 64/9 weekly wage, made up of a wage of 35/- and 29/9 bonus, or the person in receipt of £320 5s. yearly, made up of £200 and £120 bonus. If the bonus in the case of these two people had been allowed to rise with the cost of living, the man with £320 yearly would be receiving at least £95 more yearly, and the main in receipt of 64/9 would be receiving about 16/- more weekly. These are very serious cuts in incomes, but when we consider that they have been operating I might say for the last four years, nobody would stand for the accumulation of these cuts being taken from these families. The Minister smooths the matter over. There is not only the difficulty with civil servants that they are not in the position of ordinary workers who, by some kind of inquiry under emergency Orders, can get increases even over the stabilised limit, but for four and a half years that has been taken away, and their incomes have been stabilised on a year when the cost of living had not begun to rise so much. Civil Service incomes have been stabilised below a particular limit and they can only get recognition for the 1941 position.

I think the Minister cannot satisfy his conscience if he is going to take the stand he suggests. The matter requires very much more consideration and understanding than has been given it. I suggest to the Minister that civil servants with homes and families are labouring in a very serious way under a burden of debt as a result of the position created during the last four and a half years. All during that time families were growing up, becoming a greater burden, and requiring more care, particularly in the circumstances in which this country finds itself, when a family requires a great deal more care than in ordinary times. There is not now the same hope and the same opportunities for young people finding work when they leave school or home. The Minister is glossing over a very serious domestic position for people who are perhaps one of the most important sections of our machinery. I think the Minister was ill-advised not to give compensation for the past. He seems to have stuck his head in the sand instead of getting rid of the dissatisfaction and the hopelessness. I believe it is wrong to say that this is the final word until the emergency is over, because there is no knowing what problems will face civil servants in their work or in supporting homes and families. I think the Minister was ill-advised and that he has not done himself justice. I suggest that he should take a more reasonable attitude with regard to the domestic side of things.

I welcome this concession of the Minister in favour of civil servants. I think it will be welcomed by all parties. I consider that the Minister should make some concession in respect to the heavy losses which civil servants have sustained by reason of the stabilisation of the index figure during the past four years. I do not suggest that he should go back over the entire period and make up to civil servants everything they have lost, but some concession in respect of the back period should be made. Even if the Minister, instead of making the concession effective from 1st January next, made it effective from 1st January, 1944, it would be a slight recompense to the servants of the State who have had to bear, in my opinion, a much heavier burden and have had to make a greater contribution in the emergency conditions than any other class in the community. I do not think a concession such as I suggest would place an undue burden on the finances of the State, and if the Minister could see his way to make it, I am satisfied that he would be giving some measure of fairness and justice to this class which has suffered so heavily by reason of the stabilisation of the cost-of-living index figure.

The Minister told us that the cost of doing what he proposes to do from 1st January next will be £500,000, but he was very careful not to say that this sum was portion of the few million pounds of which he has succeeded in depriving civil servants since he stabilised the cost-of-living bonus in June, 1940, and that the civil servants who will get this sum of £500,000 as a result of the Minister's decision will get only an instalment of what the Minister knows is morally due to them and of what was legally due to them until the Minister introduced the stabilisation regulations.

What are the facts of this whole matter? In 1920 a cost-of-living bonus agreement was negotiated between the Civil Service staff organisations, on the one hand, and the Government of the day, on the other. For approximately 18 months after the negotiation of that agreement the cost-of-living index figure continued to rise, and in accordance with the terms of the agreement, wages and salaries moved up in direct ratio to the increase in the cost-of-living index figure. Then, in 1922, the figure commenced to decline. It declined for a long number of years until, in 1932, the index figure, which at its peak stood at 165, fell to 50, from the point of view of its application to basic wages and salaries. One has only to form a mental picture of these two figures, 165 and 50, to realise the extent to which civil servants suffered when the index figure was falling from 165 to 50.

That fall represented a very serious and a very grievous sacrifice on the part of those whose wages were related to the cost-of-living bonus agreement then current. The staff no doubt felt these hardships keenly, and from time to time they made efforts to induce the Government not to insist on its full pound of flesh. They pleaded from time to time for an easement of the bonus agreement because it was pressing with considerable rigour upon them, but every appeal by the staff organisations to the different Governments was met with the reply:—"This is an agreement, a bonus agreement. There is nothing essentially or inherently wrong with it. If there is anything wrong at all, the difficulty is in the basic wages or salaries." Generally speaking, they said, the agreement was all right and they intended to apply it.

We remember when the Taoiseach went down to the square in Ennis on 8th January, 1933, and there declared the almost sacred character of the bonus agreement. He told all and sundry, and civil servants in particular, because there was an election on at the time, that the agreement was an instrument which they did not propose to violate, that they intended to honour the bonus agreement. He said he thought it would be a bad thing for those concerned if they tried to get rid of that sliding scale agreement, because, he said:—"As sure as I am standing here in the market square in Ennis, the cost of commodities will go up and it will be a great consolation to civil servants to know that, when the cost of living goes up, their wages will go up to enable them to meet the increased cost."

The civil servants, with that assurance from the Taoiseach, with that definite promise, one might say, suffered on and continued to labour under serious grievances through the rigid application of the cost-of-living bonus agreement. Then the war broke out in 1939. A state of emergency was proclaimed here, and, in November, 1939, we had the Minister for Finance announcing that the Government intended to set its face against the efforts of anybody to secure compensation for the increase in the cost of living. Arising out of that declaration, the bonus stabilisation regulations were introduced in June, 1940, and applied as from 1st July, 1940. Under these regulations, the Minister pegged down the wages and salaries of civil servants to an index figure of 85, although, in July, 1940, the figure which should have applied was 105. Since July, 1940, civil servants have been paid on the basis of a cost-of-living index figure of 85, when in fact— and this gives some picture of what they have suffered—they ought to have been paid on the basis of a cost-of-living figure of 190.

The State, although a party to the cost-of-living bonus agreement and having taken every possible advantage it could from that agreement, repudiated the agreement in 1940, the effect of that repudiation being to compel civil servants to accept a condition of affairs whereby their basic wages and salaries were governed by an index figure of 85, when a substantially higher figure ought to have been applied every week and every month since the bonus stabilisation regulations were put in force in July, 1940. It is worthy of note at this point that, although the Government introduced these stabilisation regulations in 1940, so far as civil servants were concerned, they did not introduce the general wages Standstill Order until May, 1941, the result being that civil servants' remuneration was stabilised approximately ten months before the Government felt justified in introducing the general stabilisation of wages Order, so that, between July, 1940, and May, 1941, civil servants were compelled to accept stabilisation regulations which were not imposed on workers in outside industry.

Now the Minister comes along, in December, 1944, four and a half years after he introduced the stabilisation regulations, and says he has discovered that it was unfair to have stabilised civil servants' remuneration from July, 1940, as he could not stabilise wages generally until May, 1941. Instead of making restitution, like a Christian gentleman, for the wrong he inflicted in 1940, the Minister now wants to try to get it over to people that this is a very generous gesture on the part of the Government and that everybody is to stay quiet about his wages and bonus until after the emergency. The Minister said that this increase for civil servants is fully justified. Of course it is; it was fully justified in July, 1940. There was no answer to the claim of the Civil Service organisations that this bonus should have been paid from July, 1940, to May, 1941, and in fact there is no answer to their claim that the bonus agreement, under which they lost such substantial sums of money, should continue to operate.

It is manifestly unfair and unjust that, if an agreement is going against a person for a long number of years, and then a set of circumstances arises in which the agreement is likely to be favourable to him, one party to the agreement should be able to say: "I want to repudiate the agreement when I have squeezed every possible advantage out of it." That is what the Government did in 1940.

Now the Minister's conscience has apparently been stricken in the matter and he wants to yield up some of the money which he knows he had no moral or legal right to withhold and he proposes to make restitution as from 1st January next. It seems to me like a case of taking a man's watch and chain, getting some qualm of conscience as to your right to it and saying to the man: "I have been worrying about that watch and chain of yours; I shall give you back the chain next Monday," and still keeping the watch. That is what the Minister is proposing. He is proposing to give £500,000 back to the civil servants when he knows that he is comfortably lining the Exchequer's pockets with a couple or more half millions which do not belong to the Exchequer, but which properly belong to the civil servants and ought to be given to them to enable them to meet their heavy domestic responsibilities.

I put it to the Minister in all equity that there is no case for not making restitution, for not providing for an earlier date than that proposed in the Estimate. The Minister knows that he is only giving back some of the money which he has withheld. Not only have civil servants lost between July, 1940, and May, 1941, by the stabilisation bonus regulations, but since May, 1941, they have lost still more. Since that month the cost of living has increased still further and they have borne even heavier sacrifices, because the index figure has risen from 110 in May, 1941, to 190 in July, 1944. That gives a picture of the heavy loss which civil servants suffered when the bonus during that period was related to an index figure of 85. I put it to the Minister that in all conscience he is bound to make adequate restitution for what has been done. He is unfair and spoiling the sense of conscientiousness of which he is now apparently possessed by not making the increase which he proposes to grant retrospective so as to compensate the staff in some measure for the substantial losses which they have incurred.

Even when the Minister's increase is granted as from the 1st January next the staff will still suffer very serious hardship. I have before me just a few figures which I took the trouble of working out. I find that a man who had a pre-war wage of £2 per week will, as from the 1st January next, even when he gets his increase, be suffering a loss of approximately 19/-per week which he would not suffer if the cost-of-living bonus agreement were operating normally. Even a man with such a low pre-war wage as £1 10s. 0d. will, after he gets this increase on 1st January next, be suffering a weekly loss of 13/- on that low basic wage as compared with what the position would be if the cost-of-living bonus were operating normally. Even a man with a pre-war wage of £3 10s. will continue to suffer, after he gets this increase, a loss of 30/- approximately. People in that low-wage category who are constantly struggling to make ends meet, people who have never been able to save up for the rainy day, people afflicted with one trial or another in order to maintain a home and a wife and children, cannot afford to make such heavy sacrifices as will continue to be demanded by the Minister even when these increases have been granted. I put it to the Minister, therefore, that he ought, in view of the appeals which I am sure will be made to him from all parts of the House and the appeal which I am glad has been made by a Deputy of his own Party, to reconsider this matter and recognise that, if he is going to give civil servants back some of what he has taken from them, he ought to go a little further than he proposes in this Estimate.

The Minister, in referring to the increase of 1/- per week in the emergency bonus, said that he was raising the ceiling from 10/- to 11/- for the purpose of equating the position of civil servants to that of workers in private industry. I should like to point out that the equation will not be complete even when he raises the emergency bonus from 10/- to 11/-because in the application of the 11/-ceiling to workers in private industry there are none of the differentiations which are embodied in the Minister's application of the emergency bonus of 11/-. For instance, the Minister will allow the emergency bonus of 11/- if you are married, but if you are married and doing part-time duty you cannot get that much. If you are unmarried and doing part-time duty you get still less. I put it to the Minister that he ought to recognise that there is no case whatever for the differentiation between married and single officers and between part-time and full-time officers in respect of the emergency bonus.

A rather extraordinary position arises in connection with this. We have the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who is responsible for the the administration of the Wages Standstill Orders generally, permitting banks to pay to their staffs an emergency bonus of 11/- per week without any marriage or single differentiation and without any full-time or part-time differentiation. If the Minister for Industry and Commerce believes that it is right that bank officials should be paid an emergency bonus of 11/- per week without the differentiations contained in the bonus arrangement of the Minister for Finance, surely the Minister for Finance, if he wants to equate the position of civil servants to the position of outside workers, ought to remove these differentiations. They cannot be justified. There is no basis on which they can be explained. They have not a moral basis, an ethical basis, a philosophic basis, or an economic basis. I give up trying to plumb the mind that created a formula of this kind and I hope for an early reformation of that mind in the interests of national economy and national sanity. I put it to the Minister as a sensible man that, if left to himself, he would never have dreamt of inventing a formula of that kind. Having looked at it and relating it to the position of outside employees and the authorisation issued by his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in respect of outside workers, he ought to apply the 11/- emergency bonus fully without those odious differentiations which cannot be justified on any ground whatever.

There is one other matter to which I should like to make reference on this Estimate and that is the position of persons who have retired on low rates of pensions. If the Minister had recognised in July, 1940, what he is recognising in December, 1944, that civil servants' remuneration ought not to have been stabilised earlier than that of outside workers, a number of persons who retired from the service, either on the ground of age or ill-health, since July, 1940, would have had their pensions increased by a proportion of the increase which civil servants are to receive on the 1st January next. If the Minister is only going to apply this increase from the 1st January next, it means that, although he is making restitution to serving civil servants in some measure—an insufficient measure in my opinion—he is going to do nothing apparently to deal with the case of persons who were compelled to retire on age or medical grounds since this injustice was first inflicted in 1940. If the Minister admits that he really did wrong in July, 1940, and that he ought not to have moved in this matter so precipitately in that year, then he ought to recognise that a special case exists for those persons who were compelled to retire on health or age grounds since the bonus stabilisation regulations were introduced.

A man whose health is such that he is able to continue in the Service until 1945 will, for pension purposes, get the benefit of the increase in bonus; but, if a man's health was such that he was compelled to go out at any time since 1940, that man will lose, inasmuch as he will not have any benefit from the increase which will be granted on 1st January. He will lose that, notwithstanding that the Minister now admits that he is granting this increase because of the precipitate application of the bonus stabilisation regulations from July, 1940, when men who have since retired were in the Service. I put it to the Minister that these pensioners, many of whom were retired when the cost-of-living index figure was as low as 50 and 55, have a very special case for investigation and a very strong claim for an increase in their pensions to enable them to meet the high cost of living.

These people went out when the cost-of-living index figure was 50 or 55. That figure is now 190. How do you expect a person who went out on pension when the cost-of-living index figure was 50 or 55 to be able to keep his head above water when that figure is 190— when, as a matter of fact, for pension purposes it ought to be 195? It is asking that person to bear a burden which it is not possible for him to bear on his small pension. There is a special case for the lowly-paid pensioners. The resources of the country are not so depleted that the Minister must compel these persons, who have served the State loyally and faithfully, to bear hardships out of all proportion to those which any citizen is required to bear in our circumstances to-day.

I should like to appeal, as other Deputies have appealed to the Minister to see his way, if it is at all possible for him to do so, to go a little backwards with this grant. It is true that for four and a half years civil servants have laboured under terrible disabilities. Other sections of the community have received increases of one sort or another. Certainly their incomes have not been stabilised in the same way as the incomes of civil servants. With the sharp increase in the cost-of-living index figure, from 85 to 190, I think the case was made apparent long ago that some justice should be done to civil servants. I make this appeal to the Minister, that if it is at all possible, he should make the increase retrospective as from 1st January, 1943. If he does not find that possible, then perhaps he could make it retrospective from June, 1943. I think all sides of the House are in agreement on this matter. I have heard opinions expressed from time to time favourable to this proposal; I have heard considerable sympathy expressed with the civil servants.

Does the Minister realise that if he finds a difficulty in meeting a suggestion such as has been made by Deputy McCann—that is, making the increase retrospective— that is only a measure of the wrong that has been done to the individuals concerned? The bigger the difficulty for the Minister now, the bigger the wrong that has been cloaked over.

I must say I am not displeased to see the sympathy that is so general in the House towards the sacrifices that civil servants have been called upon to endure, and have endured, on the whole, without very bitter complaint. I think I must admit that during the last four years that was the position. I am fully aware of the heavy sacrifices that civil servants of all classes have been called upon to bear and I find myself, very regrettably indeed, in the position of being the instrument of enforcing these sacrifices upon them. I do not enjoy that position; I do not enjoy the knowledge that some civil servants, as Deputy Mulcahy properly said, men with large families, as a great number of them have, who entered into commitments before the stabilisation was thought of, find themselves in a serious position as a result of the cuts that have been imposed upon them—heavy cuts, indeed, in many cases.

I ask Deputies to realise what the position in this country has been, how many other classes of the community have had to suffer, have had to sacrifice, have had to tighten their belts, have had to do with less food, less clothes, less boots, or no boots or shoes or stockings; that thousands have been without work; that many others, thousands and thousands of them, have had to leave their families to seek work in England or Scotland or other countries for the sake of not adding to the hardships at home or for the purpose of getting help for their families at home. It is within the knowledge of everybody in this House what many of the constituents of probably every Deputy have had to do. Admitting the severity of the sacrifices as described by Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Norton, accepting what they say as true, do we not have to admit to ourselves that there were many thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, who have had to endure very much heavier sacrifices?

That is my whole case. The civil servants, at any rate, though their remuneration was reduced, though, as Deputy Norton says, an agreement with them was broken, did not lose their employment on account of the emergency. They were kept in employment and, at the end of the fortnight or the month, as the case may be, their cheques arrived and they could see something on which to build for the following month or six months. As long as the State lasted, they were not going to lose, they would not be thrown on the roadside. They had something to look forward to in steady employment, with all the conditions attaching to it. At any rate, they were permanently employed in established service.

I do not want to overdraw that picture. I do not want to say that, on the basis of the permanent employment which they have, with its security of payment, holidays with pay, payment during sickness, and so on, we are entitled to take without limit from Civil Service wages and salaries. I do not want to make that case at all. I think we have asked the Civil Service to bear very heavy burdens, indeed. To their credit, they have been loyal and industrious; they have even extended their hours of work during the emergency. They have done that voluntarily and are continuing to do it voluntarily. I want to pay that tribute and to acknowledge the excellent service they have given, despite the fact that they felt a grievance—and some of them felt it very severely indeed.

However, facing what we had to face at the outbreak of war and not knowing what conditions were going to be like, not knowing until recent times— and, even yet, not being certain—of what might be before us, I do say, as Minister for Finance responsible to the Government and to this House for measures taken, the Civil Service on the whole has not had to bear anything like the hardships, the inconveniences, the sufferings and the sacrifices which have had to be borne in some cases by people who were in very prosperous positions before this war started and who, to-day, are penniless and whose families are living on the charity of friends.

I do not want to deny the case made by Deputy Norton. When the Taoiseach made his speech in Ennis, to which Deputy Norton has referred, neither he nor anyone else could have foreseen the emergency and the sacrifices which would have to be endured during it by so many hundreds of thousands of our people.

There is just one modification I would make in the statement by Deputy Norton that the Government took every possible advantage when the cost of living was low. It is a minor modification, I admit, and not worth a lot, but I would just stick to the facts: there was a limit of wages below which the cost-of-living figure was not allowed to go.

That was for a short period only and affected only a small number.

I admit that, and I am not going to boast of it, but I just want to correct the statement that the Government took every possible advantage.

If you put the disadvantages on one plate and the advantages on the other, which would make the better meal?

At any rate, as Minister I want to be accurate in my figures, and I am trying to make the Deputy a little more accurate than he was, seeing that he is Leader of the Opposition Party. Despite what Deputy Mulcahy says, this £500,000 going back to the Civil Service—if the House agrees—will assuage the hurt feelings of civil servants to some extent. I admit there will still be a grievance there and that there will be a feeling, in some cases, that we have asked too much of the Civil Service. That is a debatable matter. We certainly have asked very heavy sacrifices from them and they have, on the whole, made them for the benefit of this State. They have made them willingly, recognising that, in the great majority of cases, they were in a priviliged position. I do want to pay tribute to them for the loyal and industrious service they have given and for the integrity with which at all times all classes, high and low, have served the State even during times when they felt they had sore grievances.

This is an instalment on the heavy cuts that have been made. I do not want to deny what Deputy Norton said about the amount of money that we have saved. We will still have left to the credit of the State, out of the savings in the Civil Service, some millions of pounds. I do not want to deny that at all, but I want the House and the country to realise what the Civil Service has suffered. The more the country, as well as Deputies in this House, realise the sacrifices they have made, the higher their opinion should be of the Civil Service.

The marriage differentiation is a thing that applies to the Civil Service. It does not apply outside and has never applied outside. I do not know exactly when it was introduced in the Civil Service: it was not during my time. It was a system that was in existence there and, naturally, being there, the bonus had to be applied on the same principle as the ordinary wages and salaries of the civil servants.

Does the Minister recognise that he is applying it now to people to whom it never applied, and why?

That is so, but we cannot differentiate between them.

But you are differentiating in respect of ordinary wage scales. There is no differentiation in the payment of the ordinary bonus to married or single people. The only differentiation is in respect of the emergency bonus.

Why could you not pay a bonus based on an index figure of 110, without any marriage discrimination?

There is some advantage in it.

For whom?

The married person gets some advantage out of it. That is the whole principle of marriage differentiation.

I wish someone would point it out to me.

It is there, at any rate, and I think they know it themselves. I hope it encourages marriages.

Someone has told me that, to obtain any benefit under it, they would need to be 40 years old and married or a widower with eight children.

I am afraid I can give no hope to the Deputies who have asked me to make this payable from some anterior date. Deputy O'Connor suggested it be paid from January of this year, while Deputy McCann went one better and asked me to take in another half-year. There is no hope of that. This year we have budgeted for a considerable deficit and what we are doing to-day will add heavily to that deficit. If there were any likelihood of a surplus, we might have a different view of the matter but, budgeting as we have done this year and last year for deficits, I am afraid there is no hope of adopting the suggestions put forward by those two Deputies and supported by others in the House.

Could the Minister give any indication as to whether he can do anything for the pensioners?

I do not think so. I have looked into that matter, may I say, sympathetically—though I hate using that word since, if nothing is forthcoming, the sympathy is not worth much. I have considered the point over lengthy periods. We cannot take one class of pensioner. If we do anything for one class we will have to do it for all, including the old age pensioners. I was aghast when I saw the figures of what even a small increase for all classes of pensioners would cost. I could not face it, and that is the position. This proposal in regard to the Civil Service will cost us £640,000 or £650,000, including the 1/-emergency bonus for civil servants, Gárdaí and teachers. The fact that we recognised the position of civil servants who had their bonus stabilised a year before other people outside, and tried to meet the situation to some extent, has naturally set other people going. We have not heard the end of it yet, and in all probability other Ministers are busy working out figures for their Departments. I can foresee —unless the Government, as I hope they will, realise the danger of being over generous in times of a deficit— that the House will hear more about demands for increased bonuses and increased payments of one kind or another before the financial year is out.

May I put this to the Minister? If he admits by this Estimate that the Government ought not, in fact, have stabilised the remuneration of civil servants from July, 1940, when they did not stabilise the remuneration of people outside until 1941, will he not now admit that there is a very strong case for not depriving those who retired between July, 1940, and January next from the benefit of the increased bonus which they would have got if the Government had not effected that stabilisation in July, 1940, and which they are adjusting now to take effect as from the 1st January next?

I agree that there is a strong case for examining the question of not only the pensioners referred to by Deputy Norton—I do not want to minimise what he says with regard to them—but that there is also a strong case for doing what Deputy Mulcahy has suggested with regard to civil servants as a whole, and pensioners. I agree that there is something to be said for examining the case that Deputy Mulcahy has partly made, that Deputy Norton has partly made, and that other members of the House are quite willing to make, but, taking the facts of the situation as they are, I do not think any Minister for Finance would be prepared, in present conditions, to increase further the strong tendency towards inflation, whatever the justice of the claims may be held by some to be.

Question put and agreed to.
Supplementary Estimates No. 74 and No. 5 reported and agreed to.
Top
Share