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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Apr 1945

Vol. 96 No. 18

Mental Treatment Bill, 1944—Report and Fifth Stages.

I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 18, to insert before Section 25, line 27, the following new section:—

25 — (1) A mental hospital authority may, with the consent of the Minister, and shall, if the Minister so directs, provide and maintain a laboratory for research in connection with mental and nervous diseases.

(2) A mental hospital authority by whom a laboratory is maintained under this section may permit the services afforded by the laboratory to be available for a mental institution not maintained by such authority and may make such charge as they consider reasonable where any service is availed of under such permission.

This question was raised by Deputy M. O'Sullivan on Committee Stage.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 2:—

In page 28, Section 63 (2), line 31, to insert after the word "commencement" the words ", subject to the modification that, in any application to him of Section 16 of the Act of 1909, the word ‘three' shall be substituted for the word ‘ten' in both places where the latter word occurs in the said Section 16".

Deputy Pattison and Deputy O'Higgins dealt with this matter on the Committee Stage and induced me to circulate this amendment for submission to the House. It provides that where an officer or servant signifies a wish not to avail of the provisions of Part 8 the allowance shall be calculated on the basis of three years instead of ten years as in the Act of 1909.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 3 not moved.

I move amendment No. 4:—

In page 32, Section 71 (2), line 21, to delete the figure "73" and substitute the figure "72".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 5:—

In page 33, Section 74 (1), paragraph (c), lines 53 and 54, to delete the words "of the certificate of the medical practitioners" and substitute the words "on which it is cancelled".

This matter was raised by Deputy M. O'Sullivan on Committee Stage and the amendment meets the argument put forward by the Deputy.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 6:—

In page 34, before Section 75, line 17, to insert a new section as follows:—

75. Where—

(a) a female officer or servant of a mental hospital authority leaves their service in order to be married, and

(b) she has been in the service of a mental hospital authority for not less than five years, and

(c) within three months after so leaving, she produces to the mental hospital authority whose service she has left a marriage certificate showing that she has been married within that period,

the mental hospital authority whose service she has left shall pay to her a gratuity consisting of one-twelth of her yearly salary or wages in respect of each of her completed years of service, but subject to the limitation that the gratuity shall not exceed her yearly salary or wages.

This is a new section to provide for a marriage gratuity for a female officer or servant leaving the service to get married. Several Deputies referred to this matter on the Committee Stage. If the officer or servant has less than five years' service the mental hospital authority are required to return the aggregate amount of the contributions. Amendment No. 10 also deals with the matter.

I thought the Parliamentary Secretary promised to be a little more generous when he reconsidered this matter. I think it is contrary to the common principles observed in the public service to have a term of five years for a mental hospital employee. I suggest that three years is enough. The Parliamentary Secretary does not like to encourage people to leave after two or three years; he wants to keep them there for five years. I wonder if he would reconsider that.

A corresponding provision was made in the Civil Service superannuation code and the qualifying period for the gratuity is six years. In conceding five years I have made a somewhat more generous provision than has been made in any other superannuation code.

Quote a good case. What about the vocational teachers?

In making this concession to Deputy Pattison, I think I have gone as far as I can possibly go. I am sure he would prefer if I were considerably more generous. From every side of the House I have been urged all along the line to be more generous in the superannuation code. Unfortunately, perhaps, most of the concessions that I had to make, that I intended to make, or that it was possible to make, had been made to the representatives of the asylum workers before I came to the House at all, so that when I came here I had already incorporated in the Bill the most generous terms I could offer, unless in some minor respects.

Make it three years.

I cannot change it.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 7:—

In page 34, Section 75 (1), to insert in line 19 after the word "misconduct" the words "or negligence" and to delete in lines 20 and 21 the words "and was directly attributable to the nature of his duties."

Deputy Spring pressed this matter on the Committee Stage. The amendment, I think, is self-explanatory. Where an officer or servant of a mental hospital authority dies as a result of injuries sustained otherwise than through his own misconduct while discharging his duties and the injury is directly attributable to the nature of his duties, sub-section (1) of Section 75 enables the mental hospital authority to give an allowance to the widow. As Deputies can see, the amendment proposes that the words "and was directly attributable to the nature of his duties" be deleted. The amendment also proposes to insert the words "or negligence" after the word "misconduct". There is a slight safeguard when the other words are taken out. In fact, it proposes to bring the section into line in this respect with sub-section (3).

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 8:—

In page 34, Section 76 (1), to insert in line 52 after the word "misconduct" the words "or negligence", to delete in lines 53 and 54 the words "and was directly attributable to the nature of his duties", and to insert in line 54 after the word "widower" the words "or widow".

This is the same principle as amendment No. 7.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 9:-

In page 35, Section 76 (3), line 11, to insert after the word "widower" the words "or widow".

The amendment proposes to extend the provision of the sub-section to cases where an officer or servant is a widow. Deputy Larkin pressed this matter on the Committee Stage, and I undertook to submit this amendment or a corresponding amendment to the House.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 10:-

In page 38, to delete sub-section (4) of section 84 and substitute the following sub-section:-

(4) Where—

(a) a female officer or servant of a mental hospital authority leaves their service in order to be married, and (b) she has been in the service of a mental hospital authority for less than five years, and

(c) within three months after so leaving, she produces to the mental hospital authority whose service she has left a marriage certificate showing that she has been married within that period,

the mental hospital authority whose service she has left shall, subject to the proviso to sub-section (1) of Section 31 of the Finance Act, 1922, pay to her the aggregate amount of her contributions under this Part of this Act.

This amendment requires a mental hospital authority, when a female officer or servant of less than five years' service leaves their service in order to be married, to return to her the aggregate amount of her contributions. It is the counterpart of the provision for a gratuity after five years' service to a female attendant retiring on marriage.

Are these the payments of an employee into a pension fund?

Yes, the employees of a mental hospital contribute 3 per cent. of their salary towards a pension fund.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 11 not moved.

I move amendment No. 12:-

In page 41, section 89 (2), paragraph (b), line 21, to insert after the words "or sub-section (2)" the words "or sub-section (4)".

This is a drafting amendment and is consequential on an amendment on the Committee Stage.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 13:-

In page 44, Section 94 (6), lines 27 and 28, to delete the words "collectively, and every member of such committee shall individually," and substitute the words ", either acting collectively or by any two or more members nominated by them in that behalf,".

This amendment and amendment No. 14 contain the same principle. Section 94 relates to visiting committees in district mental hospitals. Sub-section (6) of that section provides that a visiting committee shall collectively, and every member of such committee shall individually, be entitled at all times to visit the district mental hospital and to have free access to every part thereof. There are objections to an individual member of a committee visiting a mental hospital in an official capacity and we propose to amend the sub-section so that the visiting committee or two or more members of the committee nominated by them in that behalf shall have the right of visitation; in other words, that not less than two members of the committee will go on a tour of inspection of a mental hospital.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 14:—

In page 45, Section 95 (6), lines 42 and 43, to delete the words "collectively, and every member of such committee shall individually," and substitute the words ", either acting collectively or by any two or more members nominated by them in that behalf,".

That is the same principle as in amendment No. 13.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 15:-

In page 48, Section 103, to insert after the word "authorities" in line 3 the words "and any such regulations may relate to contracts generally or to contracts of a specified class" and to insert in line 5 after the word "contracts" the words "to which such regulations relate".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 16:-

In page 50, Section 108, to insert in line 9 after the word "officers" the words "or servants" and to insert in line 12 after the words "officer" the words "or servant".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 17:-

In page 52, Section 118, to insert before paragraph (f), line 51, the following paragraphs:-

(f) that the Minister is satisfied that the care or treatment afforded to such person or persons has been inadequate,

(g) that the Minister is satisfied that the food given to such person or persons has been unsuitable or inadequate,.

Amendments Nos. 17, 18, 19 and 20 deal with the same principles. Deputy Larkin raised the matter covered by these amendments on the Committee Stage and we had a considerable amount of debate on the principles involved. I undertook to consider the points made before the Report Stage and the amendments now submitted to the House represent the results of that consideration. The amendments give two additional grounds on which the Minister may refuse an application for renewal of registration of a private institution. The additional grounds are as set out. In the light of the discussion we had on the Committee Stage, I presume it is not necessary to have a discussion on them now. I think the House is in favour of the principles embodied in this amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
The following amendments were also agreed to:-
18. In page 53, Section 119, to insert before paragraph (f), line 21, the following paragraphs:-
(f) that the Minister is satisfied that the care or treatment afforded to such person or persons has been inadequate,
(g) that the Minister is satisfied that the food given to such person or persons has been unsuitable or inadequate,.
19. In page 58, Section 140, to insert before paragraph (f), line 13, the following paragraphs:-
(f) that the Minister is satisfied that the care or treatment afforded to such persons has been inadequate,
(g) that the Minister is satisfied that the food given to such persons has been unsuitable or inadequate,.
20. In page 58, Section 141, to insert before paragraph (f), line 41, the following paragraphs:-
(f) that the Minister is satisfied that the care or treatment afforded to such persons has been inadequate,
(g) that the Minister is satisfied that the food given to such persons has been unsuitable or inadequate,.

I move amendment No. 21:-

In page 73, Section 187 (1), to delete lines 47 to 53 and substitute the following:-

may be detained—

(a) the person in charge of the institution may request the Minister to extend the said period,

(b) where such request is made, the Minister, if he is so thinks fit, may by order extend the said period by a further period not exceeding six months or by a series of orders extend it by further periods none of which shall exceed six months and the aggregate of which shall not exceed 18 months,

(c) where the Minister makes any such order or orders, paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of Section 184 of this Act shall have effect subject to the extension of the said period effected by such order or orders.

This is a drafting amendment. The only effective change it makes is that it provides that if a temporary patient escapes he may be retaken not alone within the first period of six months but within any extended period.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 22:-

In page 77, Section 200 (3), to delete the words "sub-section (2) of" in lines 1 and 2 and in line 5.

Amendment agreed to.

With the permission of the House, I move amendment No. 23 in a slightly altered form as follows:-

In page 78, before Section 204, line 19, to insert the following new section:-

204.—(1) Where—

(a) a person detained in a district mental hospital or other institution maintained by a mental hospital authority is charged with an indictable offence before a justice of the District Court sitting in such district mental hospital or other institution, and

(b) evidence is given which, in the opinion of the justice, constitutes prima facie evidence—

(i) that such person has committed the offence, and

(ii) that he would, if placed on trial, be unfit to plead,

the justice shall by order certify that such person is suitable for transfer to the Dundrum Central Criminal Lunatic Asylum and shall cause copies of such order to be sent to the Minister and to the person in charge of such district mental hospital or other institution.

(2) Where an order is made under sub-section (1) of this section in relation to a person detained in a district mental hospital or other institution—

(a) such person shall be retained in such district mental hospital or other institution and his detention therein shall be continued subject to any order which may be made under this sub-section,

(b) the Minister shall require the inspector of mental hospitals to visit such person and to make a report on his mental condition to the Minister,

(c) after consideration of the report of the inspector of mental hospitals, the Minister may, if he so thinks fit, by order direct and authorise the transfer of such person to the Dundrum Central Criminal Lunatic Asylum.

(3) The Minister may by order direct and authorise the sending back of a person transferred under an order made under sub-section (2) of this section to the district mental hospital or other institution from which he was transferred.

(4) Where the resident governor and physician of the Dundrum Central Criminal Lunatic Asylum and the inspector of mental hospitals agree and certify that a person transferred under an order made under sub-section (2) of this section has ceased to be of unsound mind, the said governor and physician shall discharge such person and, where necessary, pay to him the expenses of his travelling to his home.

In the original draft of the amendment the words "with an indictable offence" came in at the end of paragraph (a).

That is one point. The other point is that the court is to sit in the mental hospital, that the patient is not to be brought out. The section will not operate so that the patient is to be brought out in the ordinary way to a public court. As the House is aware, under the existing law, a person detained in a mental hospital and charged with an indictable offence is brought before a District Court, and if a prima facie case is established, he is returned for trial to the Circuit Court. In most cases he is found guilty but insane. We are trying to avoid what must be a rather harassing experience both for the patient and his relatives. We are anxious to provide that, in the first instance, the District Court will sit in the mental hospital. It will be determined whether, from the strictly legal point of view, the person is suitable for detention in a criminal lunatic asylum. Following a report on that issue from the district justice, the Minister will cause his inspector of mental hospitals to visit the patient and report on his condition. If the Minister is satisfied, on receipt of the inspector's report, that the person is a suitable person for removal to and detention in Dundrum Central Criminal Lunatic Asylum, the patient will then be transferred on the Minister's order.

In Section 2 (a) there is a deletion?

There will be a deletion there. The wording at the moment is "such person shall be retained in or brought back to such district mental hospital." Now, the patient will not be brought out of the district mental hospital and, consequently, will not have to be brought back to it. Those words are redundant—"or brought back to" may be deleted.

Is it intended that the court to be held in the institution will be attended with the same publicity as an ordinary court? It is important to preserve the principle that all criminal charges will be tried in public. Very often we might here be tempted, by a solicitude for the feelings of the accused or his relatives, to waive that principle. I suggest it is a very dangerous thing, no matter how grievous the surrounding circumstances may be, to depart from the fundamental principle that all criminal charges between the State and the prisoner, should be tried in public. It is true, even if such courts as are envisaged in the section were theoretically public courts, that very few people would attend them. Still, the right to attend them is a valuable one, and I shall be glad to know if it is proposed by statute here to remove that right.

No. The degree of publicity will be a matter for determination by the district justice, but there will be no restriction put upon the district justice unless in so far as he would be asked to sit in the mental hospital rather than in the ordinary place where his court would be held —in the county courthouse or whatever institution might be provided for the sitting of his court.

In the absence of an order by the district justice that the proceedings were to be held in camera, the superintendent of the mental hospital where the court would sit would provide access for any citizen who desired to attend the court —that will be clear?

Yes, it will.

It is a matter of some importance, because I think I am correct in saying that if it could be subsequently proved that a person were removed to Dundrum Central Criminal Lunatic Asylum on foot of an order made by a court that was sitting illegally—which it would be doing if access to the public were refused—a very serious situation indeed might arise and it could happen that the superintendent of the mental hospital would prevent somebody entering the premises and attending the court proceedings.

If anything like that were to happen, the district justice would not hold the court in the district mental hospital at all. In fact, I think the district court rules will have to be amended to permit the district justice to sit in the mental hospital. Unless that is done, in the good wisdom and judgment of the Department of Justice, the section would not operate.

Due regard will be had to the publicity of criminal proceedings?

Yes. That will be largely a matter for the district justice.

Amendment No. 23, as altered, agreed to.

I move amendment No. 24:—

In page 79, at the end of Section 205, line 18, to add the following sub-section:-

(4) A mental hospital authority may, subject to any regulations which the Minister may think fit to make in that behalf, appoint a committee or committees to visit patients boarded-out by the authority under this section and to report to the authority on the condition of such patients and of the dwellings in which they are boarded-out.

This empowers a mental hospital authority, subject to any regulations which the Minister may think fit to make, to appoint a committee or committees to visit patients boarded-out by the authority and to report to the authority on the condition of such patients and the dwellings where they reside. This matter was raised by Deputy Larkin on the Committee Stage.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary consider it necessary here to limit the size of the committee which might be chosen for this purpose? He has thought it well to provide a minimum of two for committees visiting individual patients. One could conceive a situation of a boarded-out person in a respectable house being visited by 15 county councillors and that would not be a very suitable arrangement. Would it be practicable to provide that where a boarded-out patient was being visited by a committee, the committee should not consist of more than three persons?

It is in anticipation of such difficulties as Deputy Dillon mentions that this amendment has been moved. The regulations would fix the minimum number and could fix the maximum number of the committee that would go out on such a tour.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 25:-

In page 80, Section 206 (1), paragraph (m), lines 29 to 31, to delete the words "and the mental hospital authority, if they so think fit, may pay the cost of the burial of the patient."

This amendment proposes to delete certain words in Section 206, empowering the mental hospital authority to pay the cost of burial of a chargeable patient who dies while boarded-out. The words are unnecessary, as Section 105 already empowers the mental hospital authority to provide for the burial of a person who dies while being maintained as a chargeable patient. It is purely a matter of draftsmanship.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 26:-

In page 80, Section 206 (1), paragraph (p), to insert in line 40 after the word "time" the words "visit the patient or" and to insert in line 43 after the word "such" the words "visit or".

Paragraph (p) of Section 206 empowers the inspector to inspect the dwelling in which a chargeable patient is boarded-out. It may be, and probably will be; necessary to empower the inspector to inspect the patient as well as the dwelling. That is the purpose of the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 26 and 27 hang together.

I move amendment No.27:-

In page 81, Section 207 (1), paragraph (n), to insert in line 55 after the word "time" the words "visit the patient or" and to insert in line 58 after the word "such" the words "visit or".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 28:-

In page 84, section 214 (1), line 14, to delete the words "mental institution" and substitute the words "district mental hospital or other institution maintained by a mental hospital authority".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 29:-

In page 84, Section 214 (2), line 25, to delete the word "forthwith".

The word "forthwith" is unnecessary.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 30:—

In page 84, before Section 215, line 36, to insert the following new section:-

215.—(1) Where the person in charge of a district mental hospital or other institution maintained by a mental hospital authority is satisfied that a person detained therein as a chargeable patient has recovered, but such person in charge is not aware of any relative of the person detained to whom notice might be given under Section 214 of this Act, the person detained shall be discharged.

(2) A person detained in a district mental hospital or other institution maintained by a mental hospital authority shall not be discharged under this section save with the approval of the authority.

(3) Where a person detained in a district mental hospital or other institution maintained by a mental hospital authority is discharged under this section, the authority may, if they so think proper, pay to or in respect of him such sum as they consider reasonable towards his travelling expenses on his journey to his home.

This, also, is a drafting amendment. It proposes to prescribe the procedure in connection with the discharge of a chargeable patient when the person in charge of the institution in which he is maintained is not aware of any relative of his. The patient is simply discharged, with the approval of the mental hospital authority, when he recovers, and the mental hospital authority may pay his travelling expenses to his home.

Is that all the provision that the local authority may make for a discharged mental patient under those circumstances? Take the case of a person who had been detained for some time in a mental hospital and who ultimately is cured, but who, by that time, has no friends—giving the ordinary country connotation of the word "friends", meaning relatives— is it sufficient simply to send that individual back to the town whence he came and then leave him penniless and without resources? Should not the mental hospital committee have power at least to provide him with some modest sum to keep him going until he can get in touch with the relieving officer and have provision made for him in his new circumstances?

We are all familiar with the case where two old people get odd, and one has to be taken away to the mental hospital. The other dies during the period of the afflicted person's detention; the afflicted person's becomes normal after a while and comes out, but, by that time, the little home in which the two old people used to live is gone, and he or she is coming back to a village where there is no accommodation for them or where people are not prepared to take them in. It is true that an application to the relieving officer will secure provision for their accommodation and maintenance, but that takes a few days or even a week and, in the meantime, these people will be walking the streets, begging their bread. Would it not be right to put a small sum in their hands on which they could subsist until the relieving officer can procure help for them through one or other of the various social services?

I would have considerable sympathy with a person placed in such circumstances as have been envisaged by Deputy Dillon if, in fact, there were any real danger that a person might be discharged from one of these institutions and left destitute. Well, now, in the first place, where the institution serves one county, the public assistance authority and the mental hospital authority are one body. Where an institution, say, is a joint institution, generally speaking, the public assistance authority of one county and the mental hospital authority in that county, from which the person is being discharged, are the one body, so to speak, and in that way, under the machinery as it stands-without reference to another section in the Bill to which I intend to direct the attention of the House in a moment— there ought not to be any difficulty in making immediate contact with the machinery of the public assistance authority, if that should be necessary. In that connection, perhaps I might read Section 219 of the Bill, because it is self-explanatory. It is as follows:-

"Where a person who is detained as a chargeable patient in a district mental hospital or other institution maintained by a mental hospital authority and who is eligible for general assistance under the Public Assistance Act, 1939 (No. 27 of 1939), is discharged from such hospital or other institution, the mental hospital authority may, if they so think fit, send him to the appropriate district institution of the public assistance district in which he resided before he was sent to such hospital or other institution."

So that, at any rate, the patient will not be left destitute if he has not a home to go to, and the fact that he has not anybody to claim him does not necessarily mean that he may not have a home of his own. He may be the only survivor, but at any rate there is, firstly, the contact with the public assistance authority and, secondly, there is the fact that he can be sent to a public institution if it would appear that he is destitute.

I am not advocating that an obligation should be placed on the mental hospital authority to make the payment but, as I understand from what the Parliamentary Secretary says now, when a destitute person who has no friends comes to be discharged the mental hospital committee can either send him to the county home or notify the relieving officer of the county whither he is returning and ask him to look after so-and-so, or else release the patient and let him look after himself. We will assume that they will do one or other of the two things. I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary would be no more sympathetic than I would be to a general rule that every person released from a mental hospital should be automatically dumped into a county home. We all understand rural feeling on that matter, and I think we would both agree that it would be better if these people could be reincorporated in the community from which they originally came. Now, in that case, no matter how sympathetic and efficient the relieving officer may be, a few days or a week may elapse before accommodation can be found, and in the meantime the patient has no ready money. I am sure that such cases will arise very infrequently, and would it not be right to give the mental hospital committee a discretionary power, where the circumstances are such as I have outlined, to give that person a couple of pounds to keep him going until he could get looked after by the local relieving officer?

I think he could get it in any case—not from the mental hospital authority, as such, but from the public assistance authority. It would be a managerial function, and the county manager would be also the manager of the hospital, and he could immediately make a payment under the Public Assistance Act.

Could he not do so in any case of destitution?

Yes, but Deputy Dillon's point is that in cases such as he has outlined a few days might elapse during which the discharged patient would have no means of keeping himself, and my point is that the manager, who would be aware of the patient's discharge, could himself make the payment under the Public Assistance Act.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No.31:—

In page 85, Section 216 (2), paragraph (d) line 19, to insert after the word "may", the words "by order".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 32, which is also a drafting amendment:—

In page 86, Section 224 (2), line 43, to insert after the word "made" the words "or, where that period has been extended under Section 187 of this Act, after the expiration of that period as so extended."

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 33:-

In page 94, at the end of Section 243, line 25, to add the following sub-section:-

(8) Every report under sub-section (7) of this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.

On the last occasion, Deputy Martin O'Sullivan drew the attention of the House to the fact that provision was not made for having the annual report of the inspector of mental hospitals laid on the Table of the House in connection with Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum, and the purpose of the amendment is to make that necessary provision.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 34:—

In page 94, Section 244 (1), to delete in line 28 the words "Save as otherwise provided by this Act," and to insert in line 30 after the word "this" the words "Act which is mentioned in the Fifth Schedule to this".

This is only a drafting reconstruction. It is proposed to amend the section so as to provide for a new Schedule—the Fifth Schedule—setting out specifically the sections and sub-sections, a contravention of which will render the responsible persons liable to the fine mentioned in the section.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 35:—

In page 95, Section 246, to insert the words "or parole" after the word "trial" in line 6 and line 11.

The section provided only for the offence of assisting the escape of a patient absent on trial. The amendment proposes that where a patient is absent on parole it shall be an offence to induce or assist him to escape or leave the place where he is while absent on parole.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 36:—

In page 96, Section 254, to delete in lines 40 and 41 the words "pursuance of this Act" and substitute the words "a mental institution" and to insert in line 42 after the word "act" the words "purporting to have been".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 37:—

In page 96, Section 255 (1), to insert in line 45 after the word "No" the word "civil" and to insert in line 46 after the word "act" the words "purporting to have been".

The section, as drafted, might prevent the institution, without leave of the High Court, of proceedings for various types of offences, such as offences by persons in charge of registered institutions. Proceedings of this kind would be criminal proceedings and the section was not intended to apply to them. The section was intended to protect mental hospital authorities and such officers as have to take decisions in relation to patients. This is really a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 38:—

In page 97, Section 255 (3), line 2, to insert after the word "act" the words "purporting to have been".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 39:-

In page 97, at the end of Section 255, to add the following sub-section:-

(4) Where, on an application under sub-section (1) of this section, leave is given to bring any proceedings and the proceedings are commenced within four weeks after the date on which leave was so given, the proceedings shall, for the purposes of Section 254 of this Act and of the Public Authorities Protection Act, 1893, be deemed to have been commenced on the date on which notice of the application was given to the person against whom the proceedings are to be brought.

Both Section 254 of the Bill and the Public Authorities Protection Act, 1893, fix a time limit of six months within which legal proceedings may be taken. The amendment proposes to add a new sub-section to Section 255 indicating the time at which proceedings shall be deemed to commence for the purpose of this time limit.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 40:—

In page 105, Third Schedule, paragraph 6, line 29, to insert after the word "meeting" the words "of the council".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 41:—

In page 109, to insert after the Fourth Schedule a new Schedule as follows:-

FIFTH SCHEDULE.

Sections and sub-sections for which a penalty is provided by Section 244.

Sections 111, 124, 125, 126, 129, 133, 146, 147, 148, 150, 153, 158, 194, 222, 223, 240, 252, 259, 261, 262, 263, 266, 267.

Sub-sections (1), (2), (3), (4) and (5) of Section 128; (1) and (2) of Section 152; (1) and (2) of Section 157; (1), (2) and (3) of Section 195; (1) of Section 197; (1) and (2) of Section 200; (4) of Section 204; (2) of Section 208; (1) of Section 213; (1) of Section 214; (2) of Section 217; (1) and (2) of Section 239; (1) and (2) of Section 260; (1) of Section 264.

The new Schedule—the Fifth Schedule —sets out the sections and sub-sections contravention of which will involve the penalty mentioned in Section 244.

Amendment agreed to.
Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration "—put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the Final Stage now.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I want to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on carrying a Bill of this magnitude through the House in the spirit in which this Bill has been carried through. Anybody who knows the amount of work that must have gone into a codifying statute of this kind realises that it meant a great deal of hard work. The Parliamentary Secretary's political opponents, as well as his friends, admit that all informed opinion has combined to congratulate him on what is, on the whole, a well-drafted and well-conceived measure for the protection of mentally afflicted persons. One matter in relation to the Bill is of particular concern to me and, indeed, to the Minister for Justice, who is now sitting beside the Parliamentary Secretary. The Parliamentary Secretary has provided in one of the sections of this Bill specific authority for a local authority to establish clinics at which children suffering from nervous trouble or from potential mental instability can be examined and, if necessary, treated. In fact, I think we may say that the Bill provides for the establishment of child-guidance clinics. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to invoke the Ministerial powers delegated to him to require, at least, the public authority of the City of Dublin to provide such a clinic forthwith. I have no doubt that, when the Minister for Justice rises to introduce his Estimate, he will tell us of the increase in juvenile delinquency. If he does, he will have a story to tell no different from that which public authorities have to tell in almost every other country of the world. There may be many contributing causes to that increase in juvenile delinquency which we can discuss when the Minister's Estimate comes before the House. However, it is certain that one factor contributing to juvenile delinquency, in normal and abnormal times, is the psychological strain on the children.

I remember some years ago being privileged to sit on the bench with the magistrate in the Children's Court when it used to be held down in the Four Courts. When I lived in Dublin, I frequently attended that court for the purpose of observing the proceedings. I also visited Summerhill Detention Home when that detestable institution was in existence. It is now closed up and the children have been transferred to other premises. That experience led me to believe that many of the children coming before the court for various kinds of offences were not really guilty of misconduct at all but were merely manifesting symptoms of the psychological diseases from which they were suffering. I do not want the House to think that I am making the case that every child brought before a district justice by the Guards is sick and does not deserve punishment. A great many of the children brought before the juvenile courts in this city are tough little guys who want the badness whacked out of them, but a good many who come before the courts again and again do so because there is some psychological flaw in themselves which, if left unattended, will, in adolescence of maturity, develop into some mental defect which may cripple them throughout their whole lives. Very often it will emerge, when skilled observers examine that child, that the psychological disability from which it is suffering and which is the cause of its misdemeanour, is due not so much to any inherent fault in the child as to some fault in its parents, either inherited by the child or brought into play by some defect in the upbringing of the child. A competent officer of such a child-guidance clinic as I have in mind could, in half an hour's conversation with the mother or father of that child, point out the mistakes they were making in the handling of what might be a highly strung or difficult child and, by correcting those errors, secure, in the perfectly normal routine of the home, the therapeutic measures necessary to restore that child to normalcy and withdraw it from the path of delinquency. Do Deputies realise that, at present, if a child breaks a window, he is not dragged before the Children's Court? The Guards are, as a general rule, extremely prudent, even paternal. They may not even approach the child at all but mention the matter to his parents. Even if the child breaks another window, it is quite unlikely that he will come before the Children's Court.

The Guards will go to the parents, remonstrate with them and caution them to look after their children. He breaks a third window and he will not even then be brought before the court. There is even then never any question of sending that child to an industrial school, reformatory or any institution of that kind. In 99 cases out of 100 the district justice will call the parents before him, urge them to give more attention to that child, and see that it does not repeat conduct of that kind. It is only when the offence is repeated a fourth or fifth time that the question of removal to an industrial school arises.

There is where the courts go wrong because a normal child does not go and break windows on four or five separate occasions one after another. We have all broken windows in our day, sometimes by mistake, sometimes just to hear the glass cracking, but when we have paid the penalty for breaking one or two windows most of us as normal members of the community, decide that the game is not worth the candle and turn our attention to something else. When you have a child breaking windows on five or six occasions one after the other, the sensible conclusion to come to is that there is some psychological flaw there that requires investigation. At the present time there is no machinery to have such an investigation carried out and the district justice is confronted with the position that he must send that child to an industrial school where there may be anything from 60 to 600 inmates. The child is put through the mill of that institution, which is run to cater for the average child, although the authorities should be well aware that there is nothing average about that child, that it is quite abnormal, and that if due regard is not paid to that abnormality and adequate steps taken to correct it now, in 15 years' time it is not windows he will be breaking, but he will be attacking women indecently along the back roads of the country.

I want to provide a child guidance clinic where the psychological irregularities of delinquent juveniles can be put right while there is time to put them right, so that families will not be afflicted by having psychopathic lunatics in the family, and so that the public will not be afflicted by having to deal with abnormal adults who are perpetrating fantastic crimes, not because they are criminals, but because they are "draft." Do not think that I am asking for something exotic or fantastic. What I am asking for is that our children should have the same conditions as every child in America, at least children in the neighbourhood of an urban centre, and as most children in Great Britain have at the present time.

Does the Deputy suggest that provision could be made under Section 24?

I am happy to tell you, Sir, that I have the assurance of the Parliamentary Secretary, conveyed in a most courteous letter to me, that he has made arrangements for the provision of such an institution. It is because he has the foresight to make provision for the institution of such clinics that I now venture to urge on him, in view of the urgent necessity for such an institution, that he would be justified, at least in Dublin, in using his compulsory powers to get the local authority to establish such an institution. I do not want to labour this point because the House has heard me speak of it, year in year out, for the last ten years, but I venture to say that if there is any Deputy in this House whose interest is stirred, if he will apply to any medical officer in Dublin or in any other city who is concerned for the welfare of children, if he will apply to any probation officer in the Juvenile Court, or if he will consult Mr. McCarthy, the district justice of that court, I think every one of them will confirm what I am saying here. I want to add this. I am not holding myself out as the spokesman of Mr. McCarthy or any of the officers of that court. I have had consultations with none of them, and I do not profess to represent their views or speak for them, but I do venture the guess that if any interested Deputy will undertake to discuss with an expert, the statements I have made, he will find that the experts are in unanimous agreement with me. Children are peculiarly defenceless. The psychopath is a peculiarly defenceless person. Many of them develop that abnormal psychosis because of some shock they received as children and that psychopathic abnormality assumes very ugly shapes and forms. Unfortunately, the child driven to some wretched abnormal practice by some psychological upset, instead of being sympathetically looked upon by his elders, is often turned from with loathing and treated as a sort of pariah. Remember you are in this difficulty.

I remember going down to Summer-hill once. It was in the bad old days, and there were 15 children there, ranging in age from 2 to 15. One of the children I had heard sentenced that morning for an indecent assault on a girl. He was only 15. Another of them was awaiting transfer because he was hopelessly addicted to abnormal sexual practices. The first impulse of persons who have not a sympathetic spirit is to recoil in horror from such unfortunate people. One feels that the sooner they are put away the better it will be for everybody. Nothing could be further wrong. Children who go so widely wrong as they are not guilty at all. Far from being punished, they should be approached with a sympathetic understanding as the victims of a psychopathic abnormality which is certainly going to make them lunatics unless they are properly treated. Mind you, some of them are irredeemable. Some of them have got a psychopathic twist which cannot be straightened out, but a great many of them can be redeemed. If they are left to be dealt with as normal children in an institution designed for normal children, every one of them will become a lunatic and very likely the worst type of lunatic.

I do not believe for one single moment that I am under the necessity of making an appeal to the humanity of any Deputy in this matter. If I can carry conviction to Deputies, I have no doubt that I will get assistance from all sides. I suspect that the Parliamentary Secretary probably agrees with me substantially, and I am asking Deputies interested in this matter to consult the experts as to an appropriate remedy. As for the Minister for Justice, I have often spoken of him as an unscrupulous and expedient politician but, as Minister for Justice, I believe him to be an enlightened and honest man. On these grounds, as there is no possibility of juvenile delinquents producing votes, as there is no possibility of enrolling them in Fianna Fáil Cumainn, I approach him as an ordinary reasonable man. They have no votes, so they are of no interest to politicians. There is no political grist for anybody's mill in them.

What about the youth clubs?

I suppose they will recruit their boys' clubs from the kind of children I am speaking of now.

Mr. Boland

That is going too far. I could not let that pass.

Then I shall withdraw it.

Mr. Boland

One of my boys is in that club—one of the best boys in the country. I will not stand for that sort of talk. Do not go too far.

If any word I said was offensive to these boys——

Mr. Boland

It was.

Listen. What more can I say? If any word of mine was offensive or calculated——

Mr. Boland

Very much so.

—— to be offensive to the boys in these clubs, I withdraw it without reservation. No man can say more than that.

Mr. Boland

I was surprised to hear Deputy Cosgrave making a remark like that.

If I in any way insulted the Minister's son or anybody else's son——

Mr. Boland

The boys I know in that organisation are tiptop boys.

——I should like to withdraw it. The manner in which I interjected was not intended to be insulting.

Mr. Boland

Very well. I accept that.

There was no conceivable reflection intended.

What about the Bill?

I assume that the Minister accepts the explanation I gave him in the spirit in which it was offered, so that the incident can be regarded as closed. I am approaching the Parliamentary Secretary as a person who is probably just as interested in this matter as I am. I want those children looked after and provided for, and I believe the Parliamentary Secretary will take the action necessary to achieve the end in view. It would be possible to urge that this should be done on a wide scale. I recommend to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should for the present confine any mandatory order he makes to the Dublin authority. I am convinced that, if he does, the success which will attend his efforts will result in his extending such provision to other urban centres in the country, but if we begin with Dublin I believe we will have dealt with the major part of the problem for which the permissive section in this Bill is designed to provide. Would the Parliamentary Secretary give us his view on that?

I think the House generally is aware of my view on that. Provision is made in Section 24 for the setting up of such clinics as the Deputy has referred to, and has often referred to in this House. I thought the original draft was sufficiently comprehensive to include juvenile delinquents, but on representations from the Deputy I had the matter further examined, and the section was extended on the Committee Stage. The intention is that those clinics should be provided.

As the House is aware, this is a most comprehensive measure, and it will take years to bring it into effective operation. All we can boast of at this stage is that we have a very enlightened mental treatment code, but it will take a tremendous lot of administrative effort to make that code effective. Many new institutions will have to be provided, both for the prevention of mental disorder and for treatment of the different categories of it. Foremost in our thoughts will be the possibility to which Deputy Dillon has referred here of making a special study of and special provision for the juvenile who is abnormal mentally, in the hope that by scientific treatment we may be able ultimately to reduce the population in our mental institutions and perhaps—as many other Deputies hope, and as I am sure the Minister for Justice hopes—we may thereby be able to reduce the population in our prisons as well. That is the spirit and the purpose behind Section 24. How long it will take us to make it effective is another matter. Dublin, being the capital city and the largest centre of population, presents a more pressing problem than the provincial areas. We have the advantage in the Dublin County Borough of having an enlightened outlook on those things, and I have no doubt that the mental hospital authority there will, of their own initiative, move in the matter. As far as it rests with me, I will give any encouragement that I can. Perhaps at a later time, if it should be necessary, I might exercise something more effective than encouragement, but I do not think it will be necessary in the Dublin area.

As Deputy Dillon says, there is no use in pretending that this Bill has not been a fairly heavy job. I should like to take advantage of the opportunity which Deputy Dillon, by his speech, has presented to me to give some little share of the credit for this very comprehensive legislation to the civil servants who have assisted me in preparing this Bill. It may be an unusual course to take, but I do want to take advantage of this opportunity, because from time to time we hear those men referred to as bureaucrats and we hear other offensive terms applied to them. I do want to tell the House this—the House may not know it, and perhaps some members of the House may not believe it—that some of the senior civil servants who have been engaged periodically for years on the construction of this measure have worked until 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock in the morning to produce this mental treatment code. I think it is due to them that I should tell the House that. Having said so, I do not want to say anything more on that matter. I do appreciate the spirit in which the Bill was received by the House, and the assistance I got from all sides of the House on the Committee Stage and, indeed, on every stage of the Bill. It made a difficult and heavy task much easier for me. I appreciate that, and I think we have done a good day's work in producing this legislation.

Mr. Corish

Did you pay them any overtime, or do you want to drive them all mental?

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.
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