Committee on Finance. - Unemployment Insurance Bill, 1945—Second Stage. – Dáil Éireann (12th Dáil) – Wednesday, 27 Jun 1945

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The House is, I think, aware of the purpose of this Bill. It is to provide members of the Defence Forces, past, present and future, with a credit in the Unemployment Insurance Fund in respect of their service with the Defence Forces since 3rd September, 1939, so that on their return to civil life they will, if unemployed, be able to obtain unemployment benefit. The Bill will apply to all members of the Defence Forces who have had at least three months' service. It will apply to officers, non-commissioned officers and men, the only exception being officers holding permanent commissions or short service commissions in the Air Corps, and members of the Construction Corps. Credit in the Unemployment Insurance Fund will be given whether or not the members were insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts before joining. It will be given, without cost to the men, for all full time service from 3rd September, 1939, to the date of their discharge, excepting only service after the emergency as an officer of the reserve called out on full-time service or for the purpose of annual training, and service rendered under the age of 16 years. Each member of the Defence Forces will, on discharge, be credited in the unemployment fund with a number of contributions equal to the number of weeks of full-time service in respect of which pay was issuable since September, 1939.

In the case of members of the forces already discharged, the credit will be given from the date on which the Bill becomes law, and, in the case of members discharged after that date, from the date of their discharge. There is a special scheme of insurance for persons in the insurance industry, and, therefore, members of the Defence Forces who were insured under that special scheme before joining had to have special provision made for them. That provision is made in the Bill. The necessary sums to permit of the credits being opened in the insurance fund will be payable out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas. Any person who, when he joined the Defence Forces, had unexhausted credit in the unemployment fund will, of course, have that amount plus the benefit of the new contributions credited to him under this Bill.

Mr. Everett

I think all members of the House will welcome this Bill. We had a discussion yesterday of events in connection with soldiers who are discharged suffering from tuberculosis. They would not in the ordinary course be eligible for work. Could not legislation be brought in to enable those men to receive benefit similar to that received by the discharged soldier who is in good health? We have been told that this Bill applies to all discharged soldiers. Will that include the men I have in mind?

Mr. Lemass

All discharged soldiers will be credited with the appropriate number of contributions in the unemployment fund.

Mr. Everett

The men to whom I have referred who are at the present time suffering from tuberculosis and incapable of looking for work, will not be deprived of the benefits they would ordinarily get if they were not discharged as medically unfit? The Minister may not be aware that a number of men have been discharged medically unfit and are under doctors' care.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy refers to men who are incapable of work now?

Mr. Everett

They are incapable of work.

Mr. Lemass

They would not be covered by this legislation. A person is not entitled to unemployment insurance benefit unless he is available for and genuinely seeking work.

Mr. Everett

Could not the Bill be extended to cover those men? They are not in receipt of anything.

Mr. Lemass

The matter cannot be dealt with under this Bill. The only thing we are doing here is putting those men in credit in the fund. We are not altering the principles upon which the fund operates. If it is desired to do something for persons who are ineligible to draw from the unemployment insurance fund, it must be done under some separate provision, and the appropriate provision would appear to involve an amendment of the National Health Insurance rather than the Unemployment Insurance Act.

Mr. Everett

Unfortunately, they are not in a position to draw anything other than home assistance. The Minister for Defence told us yesterday that he was trying to bring in legislation to enable some benefits to be granted. Pending that, could the Minister extend this Bill?

Mr. Lemass

It cannot be done, because it would mean changing the whole system of administration of unemployment insurance. We are putting the soldier in precisely the same position as if he had been continuously in insurable employment during his Army service. We are putting him in that position without cost to himself. Apart from that, we are not altering the operation of the unemployment insurance fund at all. He must still qualify as any other worker must qualify to get benefit out of the fund.

Mr. Hughes

Will the Minister say what is the estimated cost of this provision? Will he also say whether any efforts have been made by his Department to secure work for discharged soldiers, or whether any preference will be given to discharged soldiers for employment?

Mr. Lemass

That is a different matter. The cost will be somewhere about £300,000. That will include the State's contribution, as well as the employers' and workers' contribution, some part of which would have been payable by the State if the worker had in fact been in insurable employment. There is nothing in this Bill or in the administration of unemployment insurance which would affect the granting of a preference in employment to workers discharged from the forces.

Mr. McMenamin

Will it be done eventually?

Mr. Lemass

I understand that some announcement has been made of the intention of the Government to give them preference in relation to positions in the Government service.

Mr. McMenamin

You should have passed that stage before now. Are they not being demobilised?

Mr. Lemass

That preference has, in fact, been given in respect of vacancies filled by the Civil Service Commissioners. It is a preference in relation to the percentage of marks awarded for service, the extension of the age limit governing eligibility, and other concessions of that kind. The Minister for Defence, so far as my recollection goes, has given details of this matter in the White Paper which has been published.

Mr. McMenamin

There is nothing in the White Paper about employment in the Minister's Department and allocating a certain number of these jobs to discharged servicemen.

Mr. Lemass

I do not know to what jobs the Deputy is referring. So far as the employment exchanges are concerned, it is not proposed to institute a preference there. The employment exchange is under an obligation to provide——

Mr. Hughes

That is what I was referring to.

Mr. Lemass

The employment exchange submits to an employer whatever workers or class of workers the employer requires. If a local authority goes to the employment exchange and says it wants discharged soldiers only submitted, then the employment exchange must do as the local authority requests. If they ask that men should be submitted on the ground of suitability or age or some other qualification, then the employment exchange authorities must proceed on that basis. If the Government desired local authorities or Government Departments to institute some scheme of preference, then a Department, when getting men submitted from the employment exchange, would have to give instructions to the exchange and the exchange must follow the instructions.

Mr. McMenamin

There is no use in thinking that a local authority will take steps to show a preference in any local area. It will have to be done by the Minister. He has the power to do that because he has power over the employment exchanges. The men to whom we appealed to join up and who stood by for the last six years ought not to be put in a queue along with the others.

Mr. Lemass

I did not say that. The Deputy misunderstands. It is not the function of the employment exchange.

Mr. McMenamin

It is the function of the Minister.

Mr. Lemass

It is not.

Mr. Hughes

Was there not a preference to be given?

Mr. Lemass

There was a direction given by the Government to employing Departments as to the preference they should give. It is open to the Government to give that direction.

Mr. McMenamin

In connection with a previous demobilisation, a certain number of discharged men had to be employed, thus showing that the State appreciated what they had done. I think that we would be neglecting our duty if we did not do something in that way after appealing to these young men to join. Some of them afterwards regretted joining. Appeals were made to them, playing on their psychology in order to get them to join and to serve the country in the emergency.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 1945