Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Nov 1945

Vol. 98 No. 11

Private Deputies' Business. - Scarcity of Houses—Motion.

Mr. Byrne

I move:—

That, in view of the serious conditions caused by the present scarcity of houses and the high level of rents prevailing, especially in Dublin and other densely-populated areas where many tenants, who cannot afford to pay more than a half a crown to four shillings rent per week, are occupying single rooms in tenement areas, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that a Minister for Housing should be immediately appointed to take urgent action to increase the supply of houses especially in urban areas and to finance, in conjunction with local authorities, schemes whereby rents may be fixed at figures which necessitous tenants can afford to pay.

To-day the conditions in Dublin City are appalling—there is no other word for it. There is not a room to let in the city for the thousands seeking accommodation. Those with families have no chance whatever, while engaged couples and young married couples with one or two children are charged as much as £1 a week for a single room. A few weeks ago, an advertisement appeared in a Dublin evening paper, offering a two-roomed flat and a kitchenette at a rent of 37/6 a week. An hour before the appointed time for its inspection there was a queue of 50 people at the door.

The owner had to interview a number of people at one table in a small room. To show you what is going on in Dublin and how hard it is to get accommodation, I may say that one young lady was being interviewed at this table and there were three or four other young women around the table. When the landlady came to the question "How many children?", before that girl had time to answer the question another young woman stepped out of the queue and said: "Oh, madam, I have none; I will have none and I will give you a guarantee and my doctor's certificate." It is well that that kind of stuff should be told to the authorities. That is what people are driven to in order to get accommodation in this city.

I wish to pay tribute to the City Manager of Dublin and his excellent staff, who have done everything humanly possible to find sites at reasonable prices and to enter into contracts to build houses to be let at rents which the people can pay. But the pressure has become so great on his department that, through no fault of his, thousands of people are still living in condemned areas. There is great over-crowding and many houses, through age are beginning to fall down. They fall down quicker than the municipality can build—at any rate, far quicker than they could build during the war years.

I will ask the Minister to step in now and give Eire the benefit of the knowledge he has, through his Department, of housing conditions in other parts of the world. The essence of this matter is speed. There is great need to get houses for our people at the earliest possible moment. The Minister can also decide on the number of houses required in each area. We all know of the rush to Dublin during the past few years and the desire of people to get houses. These people are largely responsible for putting the rent of single rooms up to £1 a week. They are competing against those who are left in the working-class areas in Dublin. The Minister will have to help us there and he will have to decide what is to become of the houses left behind by those who are leaving the land.

I will not say that the Minister should condemn them to stay on the land if it does not offer them a fair living. The amenities are not there, nor is there the brightness or the attractions that would keep them at a distance from Dublin. We want 18,000 to 20,000 houses in Dublin City at the moment. There are that many on the waiting list. Morning, noon and night young couples are footsore tramping around Dublin looking for accommodation. Perhaps I had better give one or two instances. I will not weary the House by reading the hundreds of letters written to me on the subject of housing accommodation. Every member of the municipal council—I am only one out of 45 members—has got 100 if not more letters from persons telling him that the corporation can do nothing for them in the matter of housing accommodation. I have here a letter from Mr. O'Doherty of the Corporation Housing Department, Tenancies Branch, and I will read it for the House:—

"Dear Madam,—Alderman Byrne, T.D., has written to this department with reference to your application for housing accommodation. Please call to this office any Monday, Wednesday or Friday between 10 a.m. and 12 noon bringing ration book regarding your seventh child so that it may be entered on our records.

As already pointed out to you, it will be some considerable time before your case is reached as all flats are reserved for dangerous building and clearance cases in the city."

That brings home what I stated already, that the houses are falling down quickly and materials for new building are not available. Very shortly the workers may not be available. I understand, however, that the Minister's assistance will be forthcoming. Here is another letter:

"Dear Madam,—Alderman Byrne, T.D., has made representations to this department regarding your application for housing accommodation. I regret to inform you there is no possibility of dealing with your case at present on account of the preference which must be given to the larger families in single rooms in tenement houses. I am to add that sub-letting in corporation dwellings is against the regulations and it will therefore be necessary for you to find alternative accommodation so that the tenant in the house in which you are residing may be allowed to retain the tenancy of that flat."

The woman brought her daughter and her husband into her flat—a right that any working-class woman should have in any part of this country. She desired to shelter her daughter and the daughter's husband until somebody else would be able to provide for them. The corporation has to tell these people that there is no sub-letting allowed, so that young woman has to get out. "If you do not," they say, "we will give notice to your mother and we will take the house from her." Here is a letter with reference to single rooms in basements:

"Dear Madam,—Alderman Byrne, T.D., has made representations regarding your application for the housing of your family of six persons now occupying a two-roomed basement flat...."

These basement flats are nothing better than cellars, 12 feet under the ground. You can see them by looking over the rails in Summerhill. You see a whitewashed area, generally flooded.

"I regret that the corporation is not yet in a position to consider cases of families living in two rooms. There are a large number of single-room families still on our waiting list. I am writing the medical officer of health, however, to see if there are any special features in your case which would justify earlier attention."

The medical authority has to find out whether it is right to keep a family of six persons living in a two-room basement in the city. I am giving the House different types of cases. Here is another:

"Dear Madam,—Alderman Byrne, T.D., has written to me regarding the notice to quit which has been served on you for sub-letting portion of your flat to your married daughter, her husband and four children. Your daughter has also written to me in connection with the matter. As you are aware, this sub-letting is a breach of the regulations and you have already been notified to put an end to the practice. In the circumstances, the corporation is prepared to withdraw the notice until after your daughter's confinement this month, but it must be distinctly understood that her family must leave as soon as possible after that event."

The mother brought that girl in and housed her until the important event took place, until the seventh child was born. After that she was told she had to get out. She could go to the workhouse, or anywhere else. Here is another letter.

"Dear Madam,—Alderman Byrne, T.D., has made representations regarding the possibility of the corporation providing you with housing accommodation. It appears you reside with your husband and three children in a flat at the above address. The owners are recovering possession of the house, and I regret to inform you that your case cannot be dealt with at present. The corporation dwellings must be allotted to families who are living in overcrowded rooms in tenement houses and in slum-clearance areas, and there is a large number of these families on our waiting list."

When the Rent Restrictions Bill was going through, I said it was too easy for owners to get possession, without providing alternative accommodation. Here is the case of an owner wanting a house for some purpose. Whether it was to let it at a better rent or for a member of his own family, the fact remains that the tenant was being put out, having nowhere to go. My own comments written on this letter are: "Eviction—owner recovering possession. No hope of housing. Why evict if no place to go? Amend law if necessary." Another letter says:

"I regret to inform you that there is no possibility of dealing with your case at present owing to the preference which must be given to large families in single rooms in tenement houses."

Another says:

"Please fill in on enclosed form particulars as set out regarding each member of your family and return it to this office so that your case may be investigated. It will be necessary, however, to forward a medical certificate in respect of your husband's illness."

In another letter, the corporation says:

"I regret to inform you that all flats are reserved for clearance areas."

I have also the case of a railway man who gave 35 years service to the railway company. When he got his pension, his family got notice to leave their railway cottage. He appeals to the municipality because he cannot get rooms anywhere else, but there is none to let. Houses are not being built and old houses are falling down. The letter to him says:

"I regret that the corporation cannot offer you accommodation. Our dwellings must be given to families who are disturbed by our own operations in the slum clearance areas. We have a large number of these families on our waiting list and accordingly have not houses or flats available for any other class of applicant."

Will Deputies take note of that? Only those living in condemned houses, in houses which must be knocked down to save them from falling down, are to-day to be considered, according to that letter. What are newly-weds to do? Where is the young man or girl clerk who wants to set up a house and have a home to go? The blitz in England did not do more damage than age has done to the tenement houses in Dublin, and with this rush to Dublin and with rents going up, in many cases our young people have had to put off their marriages because they have no rooms to go to.

Another letter says:—

"Please enclose the tuberculosis certificate and the matter will be considered."

Another woman writes:—

"I have one child suffering with paralysis, one has diptheria and the eldest has bronchitis."

A certificate for any of these illnesses will not do—it must be a certificate for tuberculosis.

I have bundles of these letters here which I can hand to the Minister. I have read out these cases in order to show the House what the position regarding housing accommodation in Dublin is to-day. Our people are sick, sore and tired of looking for accommodation. To-day I asked a question with regard to the case of Corporal Ward. Corporal Ward was in the I.R.A. in 1913 and recruited a very large number of people. He says:—

"I am awarded 17/6 per week service pension for my 32 years to keep myself and my invalid wife—2/6 less than two old age pensioners. My rent has been increased from 5/3 with fuel to 14/- without fuel, although the Government expects landlords to reduce their rents. I am refused help from all charitable societies and have been twice turned down by the Army Benevolent Fund. I have made several appeals for some of my gratuity. I asked for £20 of my gratuity to enable me to get accommodation outside."

He was told there was accommodation for him up in James's Street. That man was put out of married quarters in the Army with nowhere to go but the Dublin Workhouse. I understand that there are two or three similar cases at present in the workhouse and several others threatened with eviction. The bailiff formerly used the battering ram to carry out evictions, but what we do is to stop their gratuity and to use their pension as a lever to force them out of married quarters. We double their rents and at the end of three months if a place is found for them, a sum of 14/- a week for three months has piled up and that amount is deducted from their gratuity.

I appeal to the Minister to discuss the matter with the housing authorities to see if something better cannot be done. The Minister can help us to get additional supplies. He can help us in the matter of shipping facilities and in the matter of sites. When the corporation seeks to acquire a site, it is faced with an array of counsel at a public arbitration, and if it seeks to clear an area, fabulous prices are put on the property to be taken over. Although seven-eighths, or indeed nine-tenths, of the area is condemned, there may be a publichouse in the centre, and only a week ago we learned that the corporation is faced with a bill of £1,000,000 compensation for that type of property. I do not say that they are not entitled to reasonable compensation; I am explaining this to the Minister in order to show him the difficulties we are up against. We want the Minister to help us to get money at reasonable prices. Dublin Corporation securities are better than any security in Great Britain or Ireland at present and I believe we will get the money.

There is also a further point to be considered. When London was extending some 35 or 40 years ago, and the people were sent 10 or 12 miles out of the city, the underground railway, realising that they would get valuable customers, encouraged the development of these added areas by giving the tenants of the cottages free tickets for a period of seven years. Here we sent our people to West Cabra, Kimmage and Crumlin and built up a handsome number of customers for the transport company which does not contribute anything, and these people, taken out of rooms at 4/- and 5/- a week and placed in cottages at 10/6, 12/6 and in some cases 15/- per week, have to pay 7/- and 8/- a week bus fares in addition.

The question of transport must be faced if our people are to go any further out of the city. The Government must do something to provide transport for our people at reasonable prices.

In the old days we had the Artisans' Dwellings Company, the Guinness Trust, the British Soldiers' and Sailors' Land Trust, the association for the housing of the poor and private speculators who put their savings into terraces of ten, 12 and 14 red-brick cottages. All that building is now stopped. I suggest to the Minister that, as in New Zealand, the private type of building should be encouraged by substantial subsidies. All this work would justify the setting-up of the special Ministry that we have been asking for. I would ask the Minister to meet those people, to finance them and to encourage them by subsidies on condition that they will let their houses at reasonable rents. The Dublin Corporation is the only body building houses in Dublin at the present time. The old houses are falling down and we can do nothing for the people. In Scotland they have a special housing association. Its only work is to provide houses. It arranges for the building of so many thousand cottages, for finance, supplies and for the arrangement of contracts. If Scotland has thought it worth while to do that, why cannot we do something? I had intended going into some heavy stuff for the information of the Government and of reading from the report of the inquiry into the housing of the working classes in the City of Dublin. I have, however, only one or two notes. In that report the opinion is expressed that "the market would not be disposed to respond to any further large demands in connection with the corporation's housing activities", or that the State would accept more responsibility. That report was written in 1939. The opinion expressed there is that the public would not respond in the case of housing loans. Personally, I differ from that opinion. I think that there is sufficient money in the country for any body that wants to undertake that kind of work. The Banking Commission of 1937 in its report, dealing with housing, said that the programme outlined for the future "promises, as matters stand, to impose fresh great burdens of serious magnitude in the near future".

As I said before, I only wish to deal with ordinary things as I see them every day in the week. People come to me and to other members of the corporation—they are on the Lord Mayor's doorstep every morning—imploring us to get them houses. I say that now is the time to get our builders back before the country is denuded of its population or the State of its builders, carpenters, mechanics and bricklayers. They are all going away. Probably the Government may have something at the back of their head, that that may help to solve Partition in this way—that those men may marry English or Scotch girls and that their families will use their influence later for Ireland's sake. I say that Ireland wants those men to stay at home now and that we must provide them with suitable employment at good wages. If not, all those young men will go away. There is a building boom promised in all parts of Great Britain. I think I have said enough to direct the Minister's attention as to what is required in the matter of housing. I would ask him not to take my criticism as being hostile. I can assure him that was not intended. We want his help. I think the time has come for the Government and the municipalities to come together and try to solve the problem of providing houses for the people. I hope that Deputy Anthony and other speakers who will follow me will supply any shortcomings of mine in presenting the motion to the House.

Mr. Anthony

Deputy Byrne has given very many instances of the poverty in Dublin and of the squalid conditions brought about by the absence of proper and decent housing accommodation for the poorer classes. What is true of Dublin is also true of Cork. When a slum clearance Order is made the position we find is this, that in respect of new houses provided —the number may be 100, 200 or 300— we have at least four times that number of applicants for them. We find that there are hundreds of most deserving cases whose applications for houses cannot be met. We have the position of a mother and father and of a young family having to enter the county home, or, as it used to be called, the Cork Union simply because they can get no accommodation after being removed from a slum area. The city manager, in co-operation with the Cork Corporation, has certainly done very great work in Cork City in promoting building schemes for the relief of congestion and for the housing of people whose houses had to be destroyed because they were unfit for human habitation. Despite that, there is still a great gap to be bridged. I am aware, of course, that during the emergency it was not possible to build houses at pre-war prices. The cost of doing so is more than twice what it was then. But long before the emergency we had this difficulty of providing houses for the people. The first group of people that had to be satisfied was composed of those whose houses had been destroyed. The second category would consist of a husband and wife and a family of eight or ten children, and so on down to the man and his wife with two or three children.

In Cork, as in Dublin, we have the problem of providing for a married couple with no family. This class is left completely out of these schemes. Then there is the case of the younger people who want to get married and cannot find housing accommodation. I have had experience of many cases, and I am sure Deputies who represent city constituencies have had similar experience, of young couples asking me to use my influence to get them a house under a municipal scheme or a scheme promoted by companies or by private landlords. I have been very successful in very many cases and that brought in its train a thousand other applicants for houses. It does not do to get any notoriety in that direction because once it gets abroad that one has influence in getting a house for a prospective tenant, one's house is besieged by hundreds of applicants. The experience that Deputy Byrne has had in Dublin in relation to municipal housing can be reproduced by every member of the Cork City Council.

The Minister or somebody else may say that this motion represents a request to set up a new ministry. I am not concerned as to whether there is a new ministry or an extra Minister or that the duties will be undertaken by that very much-abused person, the civil servant. I do not give too hoots who does the job so long as the job is done. The urgent necessity for carrying out this work is so obvious that it does not require stating and should not require the placing of this motion on the Order Paper. In the latter portion of the motion the Minister is asked to take urgent action to increase the supply of houses, especially in urban areas, and to finance, in conjunction with local authorities, schemes whereby rents may be fixed at figures which necessitous tenants can afford to pay.

I can see the difficulties of the Minister for Finance. I have the habit in debate sometimes of placing myself in the other fellow's position. Therefore I can appreciate the difficulties that the Minister may have to face up to in this matter. When we ask for any extra social service we are quite conscious of the fact that the money for that purpose must come from somewhere and eventually it must come out of the ratepayer's or taxpayer's pocket. The Minister may get credit for financing many schemes of social welfare, and so on. Again I do not care two hoots who gets the credit, as long as the job is done. If it relieves distress or in any way eases the position of our poorer brethren I am quite satisfied, even if I have to pay a little extra by way of taxation.

As to the establishment of another Ministry or a Minister's secretary, I think there is a precedent for that in the Minister's Department. The Minister has a Parliamentary Secretary. We all know that the Parliamentary Secretary takes complete control of one branch of local government, that he is, in effect, a Minister. Again I do not mind by what name he is called. "That which is called a rose by any other name will smell as sweet."

I think it would be a good thing to extend the scheme that we initiated in this House of granting loans to utility societies. In many cases it was money well spent and well repaid the Governments concerned. It would be desirable if these utility societies could be helped still further to build houses. I am a great believer in individual effort. I may earn the hostility of many people when I say that in these matters I may be regarded as somewhat conservative, but I feel that if we encourage private enterprise in conjunction with State enterprise we will go a long way to relieve the housing position. That could be done by making grants available to private enterprise, such as utility societies. I may be told that that would be to create capitalists. Again I do not care by what name you call these people. If the younger people are encouraged to purchase their house on the instalment plan, or by some other method, it gives them a sense of ownership and creates a sense of responsibility. Nobody can challenge me when I say that the backbone of every country is the satisfied, not the disgruntled, citizen. The ordinary working man, by years of saving, is in a position to purchase a house on the instalment plan. He is one of our best citizens, the backbone of any country, and it would be a good day's work if this Government or any other Government encouraged that kind of thrift and good citizenship. I have heard it said frequently that if certain wild people are given a job to do, given some responsibility, they become good citizens.

I know one difficulty that will present itself to the Minister, but which I think can be surmounted, that is in regard to the acquisition of sites. I have had the experience in Cork that once it becomes known that the corporation are about to embark on a big building scheme for the relief of congestion, speculators who have been watching the market buy up the land. I do not know whether or not information leaked out in any of the cases I have in mind, but we have had to pay an enormous price for ground. If the ground upon which the house is built could be passed on to the tenant it would give the tenant a greater sense of proprietorship and responsibility and a higher civic spirit than is manifested in our country to-day.

Where there is squalor there is misery and sickness, and we may be putting the car before the horse if we build sanatoria and new hospitals and neglect the provision of decent, habitable and hygienic houses for the working classes. It may be that some difficulty may present itself in acquiring sites but, if the Land Commission can acquire land and exercise compulsory powers to acquire land, why cannot the Department of Local Government do the same for the purpose of housing the people?

In Cork as well as in Dublin you have to build outside the already congested areas and sometimes the cure is nearly as bad as the disease because, as Deputy Byrne said, the people who are removed to a considerable distance from the city have to pay extra tram for bus fares. The consequence is that many of these poor people have to deprive themselves of food when they go into these hygenic houses outside the city boundaries because going to shop and to and from their work runs them into 5d. or 6d. per day for bus fares. That means something to a working-class family.

Now I feel that the Minister's Department is very hard worked. As Minister for Local Government, the Minister of course will be responsible for this work. But, if he is to appoint a Minister for Housing, that Minister should of course be subject to the superintendence of the Minister for Local Government. I would prefer some other term than Minister for Housing; but I do not mind what you call it so long as the work is done. I hope that something will be done throughout the country to expedite the acquisition of land and the erection of houses. I may be told that the materials cannot be got. But within the limits of the resources that the Minister can tap at present and the potential resources—because we are bound by these limits willy nilly—if the Minister should give some indication that he means to expedite the building of those houses for the purpose of solving this terribly grave problem, it would be very welcome

There are implications that possibly many people do not consider, such as the want of accommodation for young married couples, the delaying of marriages, with certain consequences. There are consequences which there is no use mentioning here; there is birth-control for one. It appears to me that that is really happening, because if a young couple are threatened that after the first or second child they cannot be kept in a house or a flat, there is only one natural reaction. We are a Catholic nation and all the rest of it, but we must not hide our heads in the sand. We have to speak plainly and to be understood properly. I do hope that the Minister will take full cognisance of what is going on around him. I am aware that he is very busy. But he should get one of his staff to undertake this job. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has so many Ministries at present, that I do not know in what capacity I should address him. I feel that he is overworked and overworked at the expense of the country. He cannot possibly give attention to all the jobs he has to do. It would be impossible also to expect the Minister for Local Government to superintend all these jobs. Speaking with all the earnestness I can command, and knowing what I do of the position to-day in the country, I can say that this is one of the most urgent problems we have to tackle and we must find a solution for it, even if it means extra taxation. I may be charged by and by with being the cause of extra taxation and the Minister may be charged, too, but I feel that any extra taxation that may be imposed on the people will be justified if it is spent in the way this motion suggests, namely, the provision of decent houses for our people at a rent which they can afford to pay.

Mr. Costello

I want to add my voice as a Deputy for the City of Dublin to the insistent demand that there should be some alleviation of the very urgent problem of housing in Dublin at present. So far as the fundamental principle contained in this motion is concerned, I am in complete agreement with it. I am not in agreement with the demand that there should be a new Ministry of Housing. But I gather both from Deputy Byrne and Deputy Anthony that that is not a vital part of their motion. I agree completely with Deputy Anthony when he says that he does not care how this problem is tackled provided it is solved. I am sure my fellow Deputies for the City of Dublin will agree with me when I say that one of the most disheartening and heart-breaking tasks we have to fulfil is the interviewing of applicants for houses. Ninety per cent. of the time I spend outside this House on what I regard as my public duty is spent in interviewing people, and I feel a sense of utter hopelessness night after night when I have met my constituents and tell them that I can do nothing for them. They think that I have influence with the corporation. They think that a word from me will go a long way.

In the last few days two instances came under my personal notice and I give these merely as typical instances. I do not give them merely for making a case or drawing attention to something which everybody knows is an ulcer in the body politic at present. There is a house vacant in a certain area at present and I suppose there are thousands of applicants for that house. One applicant came to me and the position was that her husband had been in the Army, that she had three children and another under way. They were living in a back kitchen with rats and cockroaches walking over the young children night after night, and they were paying rent for that. I could not do anything for that woman. She was prepared to pay a rent to get anywhere out of it. The corporation officials were sympathetic, but there was literally no place to which she could go. In passing, I should like to pay a tribute to the officials of the Dublin Corporation for their courtesy and help so far as I am concerned in any matter connected with housing. They have been helpful in every way to me, although I am a Deputy in opposition and, as such, more or less without influence at present in matters of this kind, as I have nothing to offer them. If I were a Government Deputy, of course, I could go to the Minister and to this man and the other.

Mr. MacEntee

Does the Deputy, by that remark, suggest that the Minister interferes improperly in these matters? That is the implication in what he has said.

Mr. Costello

Yes, I assert that political influence is used. At all events, so far as I am concerned, I want to pay that tribute. The next incident I wish to give is that of a young man who had a wife and three children. The wife has tuberculosis; the three children had tuberculosis, two of them had been recently buried and the third, unless he gets out of a condemned room in which he is living, is bound for the same burial ground; the wife is in a sanatorium and has no place to go back to on leaving it.

These are only two typical instances. I am not putting them here in any way out of a sense of drama. I am merely putting them to emphasise the difficulty which I, as a Deputy, feel in handling this problem. I have nothing to offer and no hope to hold out. I am not interested in economics or the costs or the interest rates.

Deputies Byrne and Anthony seem to think that there is some difficulty about the acquisition of land. Local authorities have the fullest possible power, amounting almost to dictatorial power, to take any land they want and there is no trouble about taking it. There is no trouble about getting the money, I believe, if the matter were properly handled by the local authorities, and in getting it at a cheap rate. If there were any difficulty on that point, I think that the price should not stand in the way of the Government taking action of an immediate nature.

One of the most extraordinary paradoxes of human nature is that, for purposes of destruction, for purposes connected with armies, any amount of money can be obtained and energy expended to do things in a hurry. Even when we were not at war, in the last six years, money poured out from the Exchequer on war-like objects, on the acquisition of buildings to house troops, on the acquisition of land to train troops, on the training of troops, on the purchase of tanks and aeroplanes. If one-tenth of the money were spent on housing in the City of Dublin, there would be some alleviation of the problem. Deputy Anthony will be accused, as I will be accused, of asking that more money be expended at the taxpayers' expense. There is no necessity to spend more at the taxpayers' expense. Enough money can be saved, in the course of 12 months, out of Government expenditure to provide sufficient houses to alleviate the urgent problem existing in Dublin at present. There would be no difficulty whatever in saving £1,000,000 on Government expenditure at present.

Deputy Anthony says that the Minister is busy. He is busy, doing a lot of things that should be left alone and it would be far better for the country if he did not interfere with them. The Minister asked me if politics interfered with these houses and I assert that it did, and I assert it again. I have been informed that his Department recently asked a certain local authority to furnish his Department with a list of the persons who are going to get houses in the area of the local authority, before the houses are allocated. What is that but politics? Before the house can be given in this particular area, the name of the person who is going to get it must be submitted to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, in order that a staff of civil servants might be employed looking into the people who are to get the houses. Leaving out politics and the suggestion of political patronage that may be involved in that, and giving the Minister the best intentions in the world in that connection, what on earth is the use in wasting public time and the time of public servants on matters of that kind? The Department is very busy, as Deputy Anthony says, when this is the sort of thing they are at. There is plenty of work to be done, plenty of officials to do it, plenty of money to be spent at the present time, on matters that could well be postponed. There is one thing that cannot be adjourned, that is, the provision of houses for the poor people of the City of Dublin.

Mr. P. Burke (County Dublin)

To hear Deputy Byrne speaking a few moments ago, one would really imagine that nobody in the Fianna Fáil Benches had any sympathy at all for anybody in Dublin City who was short of housing accommodation.

Mr. Byrne

No, we know you have, but we want the houses.

Mr. Burke

One would imagine that the Minister was a hardhearted man who did not try at any time to encourage the building of houses in Dublin or elsewhere. I did not intend to speak on this motion at all, but I would be grateful to Deputy Byrne had he been a little more sincere and told the Dáil where all the money he wants is to be obtained to build the houses immediately.

Mr. Byrne

There are 20 people being evicted in Santry, in the Deputy's area, and they have nowhere to go but into the Dublin workhouse.

Mr. Burke

I have already dealt with that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think Deputy Byrne was interrupted.

Mr. Byrne

The Deputy doubts my sincerity and I have the right to reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair happens to be intervening and no one else should speak until the occupant of the Chair resumes his seat. Deputy Byrne was not interrupted and he should give the same hearing to others.

Mr. Byrne

The Deputy challenged my sincerity and I am defending myself.

Mr. Burke

Deputy Byrne also wanted a Minister for Housing. I think the present Minister, during his time in office, has more than justified himself in carrying out his duties as Minister for Local Government and Public Health. In County Dublin we have a county commissioner and, according to yesterday's paper, under the instructions of the Minister there are 1,300 council houses about to be built in the area I represent. During the whole time before that, since the first county council house was built, only 3,000 houses were erected. I make that point to show the interest the Minister has in trying to provide houses for the poor. I am sure he is just as interested in trying to house the people of Dublin as Deputy Byrne is.

Mr. Byrne

I agree.

Mr. Burke

Another point is that, in the years since Fianna Fáil came into office, the Dublin Corporation alone has built 13,333 houses. It is easy for any Deputy to make a point about housing now, when the materials are scarce. We have just gone through a war, but that has not been taken into consideration as a point which slowed housing down. Just because we are now in a transition period, a good deal of capital is made out of the lack of houses in Dublin. One would imagine the Minister and the Government were saying they would not build any more houses. I would like to make it clear that I find the Minister more anxious than anybody else to build houses and have everyone in Dublin housed properly.

Some rather uncharitable remarks were made by Deputy Costello who, I am sorry to say, has left the House now. He said there was intimidation by Government Deputies with the Minister regarding the allocation of houses. Since I was elected as Deputy for County Dublin, my influence in getting a house for anybody was just the same as the man selling papers on the street. The Minister has given instructions that the person to get a council house when it becomes vacant is the person most deserving of it and the only man who has any say in the allocation of the house is the county medical officer of health.

Mr. Davin

The Deputy is an innocent man.

Mr. Burke

He comes round and finds out who is the most deserving case. I can challenge anybody here to prove that, in my constituency, a house was given to anybody in the last 12 months but to a family justly entitled to get it, according to all the rules of humanity and illness. I think that will answer Deputy Costello.

Mr. Davin

That is not true elsewhere.

Mr. Burke

Well that is true in County Dublin—in fact, so true that I can give any amount of evidence on that particular point. Deputy Byrne should have told us where the money is to be raised for the purposes in his motion. He should say whether it is to go on the rates or be found in some other way. He should tell the people of Dublin the same thing and he should realise that there are just as soft-hearted people here in the Fianna Fáil Benches as in any other part of the House.

Mr. Flanagan

Knowing Deputy Byrne, I am quite convinced of his sincerity. I believe that every word he uttered to-night with reference to the housing conditions in the city is perfectly true. Deputy Anthony has outlined the circumstances in his constituency, which also happens to be a city. I represent a rural constituency and in the large towns in that constituency we are faced with difficulties similar to those facing the people in the cities.

The motion before the House recommends that a Minister for Housing be appointed. I very much approve of the appointment of a Minister for Housing. I do not mean that an additional Minister should be appointed. The Minister for Local Government has no less than two Parliamentary Secretaries and, while I admit his Department is important and necessary, I am convinced that the full time of one Parliamentary Secretary should be devoted solely to housing.

At the present time housing is a very important national question. Since I became a Deputy, I have been approached by country people who are living in the city to make representations to the Dublin Corporation in order to procure housing accommodation for them. I have done so, on every occasion without success. Like Deputy Costello, I am convinced there is very little use in making representations to secure a house in Dublin for a country person. Deputy Byrne makes a good case for the people of Dublin to get accommodation in their own city and we cannot expect to house country people there when those who were born, bred and reared in the city cannot at the moment get proper housing accommodation.

It is very important that every young man who is about to start out in life and who marries should get the housing accommodation he requires. It is desirable that he should be able to have a house of his own if that is at all possible. It is most uncomfortable for young married people to have to live in flats because the moment the second or third child arrives the parents will be served with notice to quit. If an old maid or a bachelor lives next door, she or he will complain to the landlord about the yells and screams of the children and steps will be taken to have the family evicted. Where are these young people to go to?

I know cases where young married couples were compelled to leave the city and go back to the country because of lack of accommodation. I know cases where married people had to leave the country because there was no housing accommodation to be had here. The Minister has been subjected to very severe criticism. He is human, like the rest of us, and I am sure he realises his great responsibility in this matter. Our aim is to establish as many houses as possible so that families may occupy them and live in comfort and decency. I am sure that is the Minister's aim also, but unfortunately that cannot be done under present circumstances. Housing is one of the most important matters facing us.

I would like to comment on Deputy Burke's remarks. He said that so many thousand houses have been built since the Fianna Fáil Government came into power. I agree. The houses that were built were badly needed and it was a good step on the part of the Government, but I do not know where the Local Government Department got the housing designs during the past ten years. In Tullamore, Birr, Clara, Portlaoighise or Mountmellick —I am sure Deputy Davin is quite as familiar with that constituency as I am; he has represented it for 23 years —the houses that were built were not erected in the main streets. A site was selected in some field about a quarter or a half a mile from the town and all the houses were erected there. The result was that the back door of one was facing the front door of another. It was impossible for any man to have his turf clamped in comfort and it was impossible for a man to keep a donkey and cart because the other tenants did not want the donkey roaming through the front doors of their houses. It was impossible for an agricultural labourer living in any of those houses to keep a pig. The tenant living opposite might object to a pig-house outside his front door.

The fact is that the design of houses sanctioned by the Local Government Department is most ridiculous, although the Minister may claim that it is a modern design. If Brian Boru were alive to-day he would die from fits of laughter if he were to see the houses that are now being built in this country under the supervision of our Local Government Department. The main streets in the towns are practically derelict.

There is one thing I have always opposed as chairman of the local authority in Laoighis and elsewhere. Where you have good houses, where a man and his wife can rear their families—good old thatched houses, comfortable houses, where people live for 30 or 40 years—they should be left alone. We cannot say the people are suffering from tuberculosis because they have reared good families and lived long lives. However, the moment the county medical officer of health walks into one of those houses, he declares it is unfit for human habitation if, standing in the centre of the floor, he is able to touch the ceiling with the fingers of his hand. That is his idea of an unfit house. If he is able to touch the ceiling, the house is condemned. The county medical officer of health in Laoighis has condemned many houses in that way. It was not because they were not houses with fine airy rooms or a respectable appearance, but simply because he could touch the ceilings with the tips of his fingers, that he decided the houses were unfit for human habitation. The old people were served with notice and compelled to leave their comfortable homes for which they paid 2/6 or 3/- a week and they were sent to the groups of houses I have referred to where they had to pay 6/- or 7/6 a week. Many of these unfortunate people were living on the old age pension. Out of their 10/- a week they had to pay 7/6 for rent.

Mr. Davin

All because the moneylenders must be paid high rates.

Mr. Flanagan

That is it. The agricultural labourer was compelled to leave his house under circumstances similar to those of the old age pensioners. Out of his 30/- a week he had to pay 6/- or 7/- and in some cases 7/6 for the new house. I have always advocated that there should be a scheme for the erection of houses for the working classes. I mean by that houses with two or three bedrooms and a kitchen. That is all any working man wants. He does not want a drawing-room or billiard tables or anything of that sort; he wants a house in which he can live decently and in comfort.

There are certain schemes of which I have experience in my constituency, and I am sure if Deputy Davin speaks he could bear me out. In the schemes that were carried out in Mountmellick and Birr the consulting engineer and the local authorities decided that there should be no entrances to where the houses are erected. There are 20 or 30 houses built in one scheme and there is no such thing as a gateway leading into those houses. Representations have been made time and again to the Local Government Department and to the county manager—it was I who made the representations—that gateways into these houses be put up, but gateways were not in the plans and specifications and the county manager informs us the gateways will not be put up. I am sure the Minister knows about the case because he is fairly well in touch with Edenderry.

The Minister should inquire into these matters, and if he proposes to formulate housing schemes for the future let him not make the mistakes that were made in the past. If he is anxious to provide housing schemes for the working classes, let him see that the houses are fit for the working classes. The type of house I refer to cannot be suitable because a working-class man wants a house with a gateway, so that he can get in at the back of the house. He does not want to have to draw manure for his allotment in on a wheelbarrow through the front door, the kitchen and out the backdoor. If he has a donkey, he does not want to have to train it to leap over the wall at the back. He wants to bring it in the gateway.

Mr. MacEntee

Will the Deputy tell me where he will stable the donkey?

Mr. Flanagan

He could not stable a donkey because if he erected a house for the donkey the county medical officer of health would take steps to see that the house was removed, as has been done. Another point is that, in respect of all these new schemes, sub-letting is prohibited. I know of one case of severe hardship where a tenant of an urban council house took in his mother and father, two old age pensioners, and notice to quit was served on him because he kept his mother and father out of the poorhouse. They were looked on as lodgers and notice to quit was served. I know cases where housing accommodation could not be secured for the brother of a tenant and because the tenant took in his brother and his brother's wife, notice to quit was served and they were left to face the county home.

Mr. Davin

There are 23 of these cases in Birr.

Mr. Flanagan

There are 23 such cases in Birr, which is the town to which I am referring. It is a disgraceful state of affairs. It is inhuman and unchristian to suggest that a man should be compelled to put his father and mother on the roadside, or give up possession of his house. I would not mind if there were sufficient houses to accommodate these people, but there is a shortage of houses and these people have no alternative accommodation but the county home. The position in Birr is very serious, so serious that I am afraid legal proceedings will be instituted against these tenants. Some of these people had small shops and, because their old residences were included in a slum clearance area, they were compelled to occupy one of the new houses. Their only means of existence was the little huckster's shop, and the moment they went into the new houses the Department compelled them to close down their shops, so that, as well as being forced to pay an increased rent, they lost their means of livelihood.

I approached the Minister's Department in connection with a case in Clara in which legal proceedings were instituted by the Offaly County Council against a good tenant, a man who always paid his rent and who agreed in the Minister's Department—I took him there with me—to pay £1 per week for a labourer's cottage if the Department would leave him his sole means of livelihood, a little shop. There was no response from the Department and legal proceedings were instituted. All that this tenant wanted was his means of livelihood, but he was taken to court and the county council obtained a decree against him. Surely that is not sound or sane administration.

There are other cases in which, if a tenant made application to the county manager, the county manager, if he thought fit to be generous, would permit him to erect an addition to his house in which he could carry on his little shop, but under no circumstances could the shop be carried on in the house. The Minister will tell us that these houses, being subsidised houses, cannot be used as shops. If a tenant is prepared to pay the full rent, I cannot see why any law or regulation should debar him from carrying on whatever type of business he likes in the house.

Mr. MacEntee

It is necessary before 9 o'clock, to take a motion for the adjournment until 5th December next, as the debate on the Harbours Bill concluded much earlier than was anticipated.

Mr. Flanagan

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.