Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Feb 1946

Vol. 99 No. 8

In Committee on Finance. - Army Pensions Bill, 1946—Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Minister for Defence (Mr. Traynor)

During the previous debate on this Bill, an appeal was made to me by Deputy O'Sullivan, supported by some other Deputies, to bring in some form of amendment to include men who were married after they had been wounded. I have examined that very carefully, very sympathetically and very critically and I find that it would be impossible to do so, as we would not only involve this Bill but also quite a large number of other Army Acts which come within the purview of the Department of Defence and, furthermore, we would involve ourselves in Acts over which we have no control at all, such as the Workmen's Compensation Act. Therefore, it is with regret I have to say that, having examined this matter, I am not able to concede the request made on that occasion.

This particular section, in fact, is designed to correct an injustice which existed from 1923. In all the Acts passed since—the 1927, the 1932 and the 1937 Acts—there was no such restrictive clause as existed in the 1923 Act. Cases came to our notice which would be precluded because they came in under the 1923 Act. We are bringing in this amendment to correct that particular injustice. This other matter was raised by Deputy O'Sullivan to extend the effect very much further than we could go, and I am unable to do it.

Mr. Cosgrave

Will this section, which amends the 1923 Act, be retrospective in the case of a person who died, say, in 1924, and will the dependents in that case, the widow or children, get all the money which they would have got if this section had been in the 1923 Act?

Mr. Traynor

No, only from the operative date of this Bill.

Question agreed to.

Sections 3 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 8.

Mr. Traynor

I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 8, to delete line 4 and substitute the following:—"or before the 1st day of January, 1947, whichever is later".

This is to extend the date, to meet the point made here, to the 1st January, 1947.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 8, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 9 and 10 agreed to.

SECTION 11.

Mr. Traynor

I move amendment No. 2:—

In page 11, to delete line 25 and substitute the following:—"before the 1st day of January, 1947".

This is to extend the date in the same way.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 11, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 12.

Question proposed: "That Section 12 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Cosgrave

The Minister, in reply to Deputy Byrne, said that there would be no deduction as the result of this pension being awarded, say, to a widow already in receipt of a widow's pension. Is it not correct that, if a pension is awarded to a widow in receipt of a widow's pension, the widow's pension will be abated in accordance with the amount of this pension; or does it follow that, under this section, no abatement takes place, no matter how large the pension is?

Another point I would like to make is that some soldiers are in doubt as to their entitlement under this section. While the Bill has got a certain amount of publicity, I have had a few letters already from soldiers who are wondering if they are entitled. Some of them were discharged more than four years ago and, apparently, they have failed to see that it is within a year of the operative date or within four years of discharge, whichever is the longer. I suggest to the Minister that all soldiers who have made an application for the pension prior to the coming into operation of this Bill should be notified, so far as possible, of the provisions of this Bill and of the amount to which they are entitled—at any rate of the provisions of the Bill, the amount to which they are entitled would depend on the degree of disability?

Mr. Traynor

It will be necessary for all these men to send in applications. So far as I understand, what will happen is that where applications were formerly made, fresh application forms will be forwarded to the individuals concerned. Now, with respect to the other point——

Mr. Cosgrave

Perhaps the Minister will allow me to mention that I had a letter to-day from a soldier who thought that because he has been discharged for more than four years he will not be entitled to a pension. Under sub-section (3) (a) every application should be made to the Minister within a period of 12 months from the operative date, or within four years from the date of discharge. In that case he is entitled, but a lot of these people are not aware of what they are entitled to.

Mr. Traynor

They will probably be notified by the sending out of a form asking them to fill in certain particulars and I rather imagine that that will probably take in every one of these men. My own experience of these men is that they are usually very alert.

Mr. Cosgrave

They usually are.

Mr. Traynor

They are very quick off the mark and, as well as that, they get into touch with Deputies, here, there and everywhere, such as in Deputy Cosgrave's case. They make doubly certain that they are not missing anything. With regard to the other point that was mentioned, I tried to explain to Deputy Byrne that the amount will be brought up to whatever the woman was receiving while her husband was alive, in respect of allowances for herself and her children. It will not be less than that amount; the total amount of widows' and orphans' pensions will not be less in any respect.

Mr. Cosgrave

I understand that, but there might be an abatement in some cases.

Question agreed to.

SECTION 13.

Mr. Traynor

I move amendment No. 3—

In page 12, to delete line 12 and substitute the following:—"and figures ‘before the 1st day of January, 1947'."

This is merely extending the date.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 13, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 14.

Mr. Traynor

I move amendment No. 4:—

In sub-section (1), page 12, line 23, to delete the figures "1946" and substitute the figures "1947".

Amendment agreed to.

Section 14, as amended, and Sections 15 and 16, agreed to.

First and Second Schedules and the Title agreed to.

Bill reported, with amendments.

Mr. Cosgrave

Will the Minister say if he has yet come to a decision concerning the Army Pensions Scheme of 1937, which deals among other things with officers who, if they had not retired before their deaths, their widows would not be entitled to a gratuity?

Mr. Traynor

This is actually, and has been for some considerable time, under consideration, but it is outside my hands at the moment.

Mr. Cosgrave

Will the Minister consider the point? There are only a few cases and perhaps he will say that it will be made retrospective?

Mr. Traynor

It will be, in the near future.

Mr. Cosgrave

And it will cover the few cases that have occurred?

Mr. Traynor

I think the Deputy mentioned on a former occasion some cases which we investigated. As regards these particular cases, I think they will come within the scope of the Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take the Report Stage?

Mr. Traynor

This does not appear to be a controversial Bill. There is an operative date and the sooner it becomes an Act the sooner people will begin to benefit. If there is no objection on the part of the House, I suggest that we could take the remaining stages to-day.

Mr. Cosgrave

There is no objection. Can the remaining stages be taken now, when the Bill has been amended?

An Ceann Comhairle

They can be taken.

Agreed to take the remaining stages to-day.

Question—"That the Bill be now received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution. Seanad Eireann will be notified accordingly.