Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Jan 1947

Vol. 104 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 49—Eolaíocht agus Ealaí.

An tAire Oideachais (Tomás Ó Deirg)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim breise nach mó ná £10 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú Márta, 1947, chun Tuarastal agus Costas na bhForas Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon, chun Seirbhísí Ilghnéitheacha áirithe Oideachais agus Cultúir, chun Cuimhneacháin Céad Blian Thomáis Dábhis agus Ghluaiseacht na nÉireannach Óg, agus Ildeontais-i-gCabhair.

Tá an meastachán seo ag teastáil le haghaidh dhá chuspóir—(a) chun £600 de dheontas a chur ar fáil do "Chompántas Amharclainne na Gaeilge" agus (b) i gcóir £2,000 de mhéadú sa deontas do Choimisiún an Bhéal-Oidis. £2,000 an tsuim iomlán atáthar ag brath a chaitheamh; ach ó thárla £2,590 de shábháil faoi mhír-chinn eile den Bhóta, is í an fhíorshuim le bhótáil ná £10.

Fé mar is eol do mhórán Teachta, is é atá i "gCompántas Amharclainne ná Gaeilge" ná comhghléas a cuireadh ar bun, timpeal 3 bliana ó shoin chun siamsa Gaeilge don phobal a chur ar stáitsí na n-amharclann tráchtálach. Tá cruthaithe aige cheana féin gur féidir leis sin a dhéanamh, óir tá 8 gcinn de thaispeántais tugtha aige. "Got-Seadh" a bhí san Amharchlainn Olympia, i Mí na Samhna seo caite an ceann is déannaí díobh sin agus, san amharchlainn chéanna, do leiríodh "Hot-Seadh" i mBealtaine agus "Acht-Seadh" i Meán Fómhair de bhliain a 1945.

Do thaithnigh na taispeántais sin go hanmhaith leis an bpobal; ach, mar gheall ar chíos trom na hamharchlainne agus mar gheall ar chostas eile níor eirigh leis an gCompántas fós na costais go léir íoc as na táillí dorais. Ar thaispeántas a mhaireas i rith seachtaine bíonn timpeal £150 de mheán-chaillteanas, agus tathar ag brath £600 de dheontas a chur ar fáil, ionas go nglanfar an caillteanas a bhí ar na taispeántais atá tugtha cheana, agus chun a chur i gcumas an Chompántais taispeántas eile a chur ar an stáitse roimh deireadh na bliana airgeadais atá ann faoi láthair.

An £2,000 de mhéadú sa deontas do Choimisiún an Bhéal-Oidis, séard is cuspóir dó a chur i gcumas an Choimisiúin leathnú a dhéanamh ar an obair thábhachtach atá á cur chun cinn aige le fada. Roimhe seo, d'íocadh na bailitheoirí féin a gcuid costas taistil agus costais eile; ach níl a dtuarastail sáthach mór chun é sin a dhéanamh agus praghsanna mar atáid faoi láthair, agus is le haghaidh na gcostas sin atá cuid den deontas breise ag teastáil. Ina theanta sin, tá sé ar intinn ag an gCoimisiún a chuid oibre a thionscnamh i gceanntair ná dearnadh aon bhailiúchán iontu fós, agus d'úsáidfí cuid den deontas chun íocaíocht a thabhairt do bhailitheoirí páirt-aimsire sna ceantair sin.

Ní eile, tá socraithe ag an gCoimisiún bailiúchán Béal-Oidis a bhunú i nGaeltacht na hAlban, agus tá bailitheoir deá-cháilithe fachta le n-a aghaidh sin.

An obair atá déanta cheana ag Coimisiún an Bhéal-Oidis, tá moladh fachta aici ó na scoláirí go léir a bhfuil suim acu inti, agus tá an méadú seo sa deontas ag teastáil chun a chur i gcumas an Choimisiúin an obair a chur chun cinn agus a chur i gcrích mar ba chóir.

General Mulcahy

With regard to the work of Compántas Amharclainne na Gaeilge, I would like to ask the Minister whether it is intended that that would be confined entirely to Dublin or whether there is any proposal that the compántas or part of it would bring some of their performances to any other part of the country.

I welcome the additional grant to the Cumann Béal Oidis and I think that it shows that there is increased appreciation of that work on the part of the Government. However, I do not think that work of the Irish Folklore Society is sufficiently appreciated, or that its enormous importance is realised. This grant was given originally by the Government in 1935 and it is only as the work accumulated and developed that its real importance became disclosed. The additional grant now proposed is not at all sufficient to meet the work to be done. There is something like 11 persons in all being paid out of the total grant. Some of these are at headquarters and others are at various points throughout the country. I know of only three collectors—one in Donegal, one in West Kerry and another in South Kerry. They are doing the most extraordinary work under the most extraordinary difficulties. When they started they were paid £150 a year and expected to keep themselves on that— and their families, too, if they had them—and pay for their travelling as well. They took their notebooks or carried an ediphone around on a bicycle or some other means of transport. They went to the old people in the Irish-speaking districts and recorded the stories and the traditions of the localities. No one not in touch with the districts can understand what that means, or the enormous amount of work done by the paid collectors and by the individual assistants helping them throughout the country.

Between descriptions of local life and the traditions carried down so faithfully by the old Irish speakers, so much material has been collected that the cream of it alone would, if published, take about 300 volumes. I have seen something like 90,000 index notes, which represented only 5 per cent. of the collection which has been made. The Minister says that part of this additional grant is to go to increase the pay of the present collectors and that part is to be applied to the employment of additional collectors in other districts. When one considers the enormous amount of work done and that, from Donegal town and Teelin down to Castlegregory, on the whole of the coast, including County Galway, not a single paid collector is working, one can see how much remains to be done. We should all be grateful if the Minister, when putting his main Estimate before the Dáil, would give us a summarised appreciation of the work being done by the society and of the work which remains to be done. Because it is called the Irish Folklore Commission and because part of its work is the collection of old stories, there seems to be an impression that its work is concerned only with the collection of highly imaginative folk tales, with a certain amount of linguistic curiosities. These tales are being collected, it is true, but they are the transmitted, oral literature of a people who have been speaking this language for 2,000 years and who have been speaking a language which has been the language of Irish written literature from its inception. In itself, it has remarkable qualities as a language, while the stories have remarkable qualities as literature. It carries on the mentality of a people who were one of the original civilisations of the world. As well as that, the whole character and life of our people are expressed in reminiscences, stories of the land and sea and stories of how the people got their living. The thought and philosophy of the people are enshrined in the stuff which is being taken down by the collectors.

We pay great homage to our Irish architecture and literature but here is being collected the living spark that can light up our history, conveyed in our written literature and in whatever comes to us from our study of architecture and archaeology. The people who were doing this work used to be paid £150 a year. Then they got £100 to run a car but they had to buy and keep the car themselves. I think that there are three of them working who are now in receipt of £280 a year. What are they doing? They are living and moving amongst the Irish-speaking people and collecting from them their stories, reminiscences and local traditions. It is a remarkable thing that all that matter which has been dictated by Irish-speaking people has not cost a single 1d. in narration. You have cases of a collector who goes to a man, as I have known in one case, and occupied his time for a couple of days in taking down on the ediphone more than 20 stories dealing with the traditions of the place. That collector was not paid sufficient to enable him to stand the old man a drink on the next occasion he would meet him or to offer him a bit of tobacco when he went into his house. These collectors are dealing with tremendously hospitable people and they are so badly paid that, when they have collected the material in a particular district, they are almost ashamed to meet those from whom they have collected it at a fair or patron because they have not the wherewithal to stand them a drink or offer them refreshment or engage in any of those social courtesies that mean so much, particularly to a generous and hospitable people. I should like the Minister to tell us that those collectors, who are working in the front trench, will get sufficient to enable them to maintain themselves and to meet other expenses—if they are to get an allowance for expenses under the new arrangement.

The Minister indicates that some work is to be done in Scotland. I understand that links have been developing between the Folklore Commission here and the comparable body in Sweden and between the commission and some of the remnants of our Irish-speaking race in the States and Newfoundland. I understand that the Swedes are to send a man here, probably to University College, to follow up some of the work being done here. I think that a number of our people from the Folklore Commission visited Sweden and established close contacts with those who are doing that type of work there. They are very far advanced in the doing of that work. It would individualise people too much if I were to mention the academic qualifications of people who are working for even less than £280 a year. But I think the Minister would have appreciation of what is being done and of the kind of people who are doing the work, if I were to do so. He should have appreciation, too, of the extraordinarily generous spirit of the people who have this material and who are surrendering it free. I think that those who are collecting the material should be put in a position in which they would not be ashamed to meet those from whom they are collecting. There are, I think, about 450 collectors throughout the country who are doing a tremendous amount of work voluntarily.

The commission would require to be housed in some place. At the present time the commission is housed in University College, which itself has been described as an academic slum. At any rate, it is so overcrowded that you hear descriptions of students sitting on the hot pipes during classes because they have no other place to sit. The rooms are absolutely overcrowded. Yet, a great institution like University College, which is so overcrowded and so short of space for its own particular purposes, has given the commission a couple of rooms to do this work. I would like to know from the Minister whether any arrangements are going to be made to provide the commission with a house of its own to store its enormously valuable material in, and to enable its headquarters workers to do their work with reasonable comfort and efficiency. At the present moment they are completely crowded out by the amount of material that they have collected around them. I would particularly ask the Minister whether, in presenting us with his Estimate for next year, he will cause, for the information of the House, to have the whole work of the commission reviewed, and particularly the class of work that remains to be done in order that we can save completely the magnificent harvest and heritage that is there.

There is another thing that I would like to raise. A lot of this work has been collected simply by notebook and pencil, and recently a lot of it by the dictaphone. You have some of the most extraordinary people and most extraordinary minds in Western European civilisation among the people of the Irish-speaking districts at the present time. I was down in Dunquin in the early part of this year. There was a student there from Switzerland. He had spent three months in the district. He had spent a considerable part of that time in the company of old Peg Sayers and was mystified at the mentality and the character of that old woman that he found living there in the most western part of Ireland and of Europe. He said that he had failed to plumb the poetic depths of her mind. We are in the position that we have people of that kind here. Yet, in spite of all the up-to-date machinery there is for recording voices and the speech of the people, no up-to-date machinery has been made available to the commission to take records of the actual speaking voices of the people who are living there; of people who, like her, are there and in parts of the Gaeltacht like Cul-aodha, Ballyvourney, Connemara, Donegal and parts of Clare. I ask whether something is going to be done, and done urgently to give us—in the form of adequate and perfect records of the modern type—some samples of the speech of those people before they go— of the really monumental character and minds of those people who are going and going very quickly. The matter is urgent, and I urge on the Minister to realise that the resources at the disposal of the director and staff are not anything like meeting the big and very urgent work that is to be done.

Mr. Halliden

I would like to support Deputy Mulcahy in his plea for more intensive work in this connection. I had considerable experience myself collecting folklore in the North Cork area. I agree with the Deputy when he says that the matter in question is being conducted too slowly. It is also disappointing that those who are collecting it have to live on miserable salaries. The poor stipend allocated does not provide much of an incentive for them to do the work. They are doing extraordinarily good work, and it is regrettable that the return they get for it is so small. I agree with Deputy Mulcahy that the work should be speeded up. I would like to know from the Minister if any publications have been issued by the Folklore Commission, and if not when we may hope to see some. I appeal for better financial help for those who are engaged on this work.

Mr. Derrig

Deputy Mulcahy has referred to the importance of the work of the Folklore Commission. I should like to endorse what he has said, and welcome his appreciative remarks. This is the kind of work that is not, perhaps, as well known as it should be. There is scarcely any work that could be carried out, dealing with our cultural past and the lives of our people, that could be of more importance than this work is. The work has, as Deputy Mulcahy has said, acquired an unrivalled reputation. The workers employed, from the director down to the most newly appointed part-time collector, are all persons of special qualifications, several of them holding university qualifications as well. Their work is known, of course, in Sweden and elsewhere where special attention is given to folklore and folk tradition. The Government would like to assist the commission as far as they can, but I think it is not entirely a question of finance. There is the question of getting suitable collectors. These have to be specialists. They have to have a certain type of personality to make them successful in their work in going amongst the old people in collecting folklore, and I dare say the number of such persons is limited. Moreover, up to the present it has not been possible to arrange that the commission should be made permanent. When it was established originally it was thought that the work that it put before itself might be completed within a period of years. There was great urgency at that time as everyone realised that the old Irish speakers were dying out, and that there was the danger that the store of folklore which they had might be lost. Thanks to the work of the commission, to the energy of the director and of his collaborators and of the members of the commission itself, a great deal has been salvaged, but probably something has been lost. The Irish National Teachers' Organisation also gave valuable assistance. The teachers, when they were asked by the commission to help in the work, got the schoolchildren interested, and even in areas that were not Irish-speaking a great amount of valuable material was collected, not alone stories, but matter bearing on the lives of the people, and particularly upon the social history of the country during the past 70, 80, or perhaps 100 years.

The collectors, naturally, would like that their positions should be made permanent, but I think I would be correct in saying there is a difficulty, and there will always be a difficulty, in getting the fine type of worker required in an enterprise of this kind to remain on if opportunities are given to him to improve himself and to get a permanent position in some other walk of life which may suit him. At any rate, the present condition of the finances of the commission will enable them to do something more for the collectors. Leaving out the indoor staff, I find the outdoor staff are paid salaries ranging from £250 to £300 a year. In addition, they receive emergency bonus and, according to their circumstances, they are allowed certain maintenance and board allowance for the period when they are at work.

Before I pass from the general point, I should like to ask all those interested in the preservation of the records of the generation that is now ebbing so quickly from us, and which is the last of its kind that we shall have, to give us some assistance. I have in mind those people who, with not a great deal of formal education, nevertheless carry with them a great repository of old Irish legend and story. There are not very many of them left and it is necessary that every one of us who is interested should help the commission in its work to gather in what remains to be collected and also extend the work, not only through the Irish-speaking districts, but through all the other areas of the country as well.

As regards the housing of the commission, I agree the present accommodation is, perhaps, not suitable. It is in the upper part of the University College building and is not easy of access. On the other hand, I think from the point of view of the director, and probably the commission, they have the feeling that since they were associated with University College, Dublin, they would like to maintain the association. If the commission would be prepared to change, in view of the growth of their records and work, I would be very glad to examine the possibility of trying to provide accommodation for them elsewhere, subject to the fact that Government Departments, which are increasing in number and size, are also looking for accommodation. There is also a keen demand for accommodation by the public and by commercial firms, so it is not easy to get the accommodation, but I think it should be possible to secure alternative accommodation for them and it is a matter we will not lose sight of.

As regards the gramophone records, a number of these were made during the period of office of the previous Government. I understand they were not very satisfactory; perhaps it was that the technique had not been developed at that time, but, from the point of view of using them in schools, they were not at all what the inspectors would think the right material. If, on the other hand, we wish to keep the records merely as records, which is what the Deputy has in mind, I shall be very glad if a machine is provided and I think Radio Éireann is the organisation which ought to have the machine, which is a rather costly one. If they have not already procured it, I shall certainly speak to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and remind him that if he gets the machine he could also do work to assist the Folklore Commission and in that way we would have permanent records of old Irish speakers.

Deputy Halliden perhaps is not aware in the same way as I am of the difficulties in getting even Government printing done. The difficulties in that connection are at present very great. The printers seem to be altogether cluttered up with work. The Folklore Commission has a very large amount of material which they are preparing gradually for publication and recently I received a copy of a journal—I think it was the 1945 copy—that is published by a different body, but they are substantially the same persons—the Folklore Society—as the Folklore Commission. It is the same kind of material and the director, Professor Delargy, is responsible in both cases. It is a great achievement that they have been able to keep their journal and have it published, though not at regular intervals, in somewhat the same manner as we were accustomed to before the war.

As soon as the printing position improves, I am quite sure the material the commission has in hand will be published. The important thing, and what the commission itself has always stressed, is that the work of collecting is far more important and more urgent and all their efforts should be concentrated upon that. At the same time, they can make the necessary arrangements. They have a staff in Dublin which has prepared a good deal of matter for publication and if the printing difficulties are got over I am sure we will have a fairly normal stream of publications coming from them.

I do not know that there is anything else except as regards the Compántas going outside Dublin. Séard adubhairt siad féin i gcúntas i rith na bliana seo caithte ná: "Cé go bfuaireamar cuid mhaith cuireadh dul faoin dtuaith, níor éirigh linn freastal díobh ach teaspántas i gCeatharlach i nDeireadh Fomhair, 1945." There was no reference to the Compántas touring the country or going outside. The expenses that would be involved going down the country are very great and I do not know whether the members of the organisation could travel, unless at certain times, as they have their ordinary occupations to attend to. I will remind them, if it can be done, that the opinion has been expressed in Dáil Éireann that people in the country might like to see what they could do.

General Mulcahy

The Minister questioned whether it was possible to get collectors of the proper type and whether it might not be hard to keep them if they can get offers of a better position. I think the Minister will probably find by experience that there are persons doing this work who could have got much better positions elsewhere. In fact, the work becomes a kind of vocation and attracts people to it as a kind of vocation. If the finances of the commission were improved, I do not think he would have any difficulty in getting the type of people who would do the collecting work.

Vote put and agreed to.