Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Apr 1947

Vol. 105 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 55—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on Vote 55 (Industry and Commerce).

Mr. Fagan

Last night, when speaking on this Vote, I was dealing with the closing of the Inny Junction-Cavan line. I want to impress upon the Minister that the people of the Midlands will take it very badly if the Minister even consents to the closing of this most important branch line. As I pointed out last night, this line is, more or less, a link from the Midlands with the north of Ireland. I ask the Minister to give every consideration to the matter if any move is made to close this line. I know that it is in his power to prevent it and I am sure that he will not consent to anything which will do harm to the people. As regards the 20 per cent. increase, I think that the Minister was very wrong in allowing it so easily. Córas Iompair Eireann have got away with this increase. Doubtless, they put up a good case, based on the increase of wages to their employees, but there is another side to the question. The increase means 20 per cent. additional expense on the farmer for his produce and there does not seem to be any prospect of his getting any more for that produce. The farmer is hard put to it to sow beet and wheat. He is four to six weeks late and sowing is more or less of a gamble. If this 20 per cent. is to be continued, the Minister should do something with the Minister for Agriculture and other members of the Cabinet to get an increase for the farmers in respect of their produce. This increase means that they are being worsened to the extent of 20 per cent. on beet and wheat—the two crops most necessary for the country. I was very glad last night to hear Deputy Corry contrasting the carriage of beet. He pointed out that cement is being carried by Córas Iompair Eireann at a much cheaper rate than beet, the loading and unloading of which is carried out by the farmer. The Government should look into that matter very closely. It is the old story. We are short of certain commodities and the reason is that the Government are not sufficiently generous in the prices allowed to the farmer. If the Government sanctions this increase, there should be no hesitation in allowing an increase to the farmers for beet and wheat. The sowing of wheat is a gamble this year. It is costing from £12 to £14 an acre to sow wheat and it is going to be a big gamble to get that money back.

I saw where the railway people were very annoyed because somebody questioned the efficiency of the railways in the Dáil. As regards the lorry service, I am in a privileged position, because I am on the highway but the service does not suit people who are not on the highway. They had a service every day on the railway but now they have a service only once a week. The charges the railways are making for carrying stock to Dublin are exorbitant. If they propose to transfer the carrying business to the roads, they will have to come down to the level of the railway charges for the carriage of live stock and farm produce. Since the emergency, this traffic has been going by road, and it looks as if it would continue to do so, but the cost is from 110 to 120 per cent. greater than the cost was by rail. The railway authorities cannot expect the county councils to make roads for the lorries. The Minister may say that big grants are given to the county councils from the Road Fund. But these grants have not been given to the ratepayers solely for this purpose. They were given to counteract the impost placed by the Minister for Finance on the farmers last year by compelling them to increase the wages of their men. What they got back from the county council did not meet that increase.

In Dublin market, I saw a lorry pull in for six cattle which I had bought for a butcher in Mullingar. These cattle were loaded on the lorry but this lorry was made in such a way that you had to pull it out before you pulled out the back of it. When the lorry pulled out a few yards, three cattle jumped out. That cannot be described as efficiency. If there was a bar which could be dropped down, the cattle would not fall out of such a lorry. It is also reported that the railway to Trim and Athboy is to be closed. I am informed that the stationmaster has got notice of transfer. If that railway between Trim and Athboy be closed, it will mean that the heart of Ireland will be closed, because Trim serves the whole Midlands so far as the Dublin market is concerned. The farmers had cattle at Trim a few weeks ago to go by lorry but no lorries came and they had to bring home their stock. I strongly protest against the closing of that line or any branch line, even though the company may have to run it at a loss. The Government will have to regard these lines as national assets and see that they are retained for the people. The people will not stand for the closing of those lines. As regards the haulage of cattle during the emergency, I could not see why private lorry owners were not allowed to haul cattle. It was stated that it would be against the Transport Act but why are private lorry owners allowed to draw timber and turf to Dublin while they are not allowed to draw cattle? I cannot see why there should be such a distinction in the law. At that time, the private lorry owners should have been allowed to bring stock to the fairs. Farmers lost about £3 a head on cattle because of being held up in this way.

Deputy Blowick referred to the turf in the Park. I know something about turf and the people handling turf in Dublin know nothing about it. I see them walking on turf and throwing it into wagons and out of wagons. There should be only one handling, if possible, so far as turf is concerned. It is very fragile and the more it is moved the more you lose. The Government should have got some of these big open sheds like hay sheds for the turf in the Park. I advise them to do that if they are putting turf or timber in the Park this year. They could build a shed half a mile long and could get the material as well as anyone else. We farmers who are bringing turf home know that we must cover it or it will deteriorate very quickly. The methods used in the Park were laughable and a robbery of the taxpayers' money. It would cost a certain amount, but would be saved in one year.

Much of the scarcity of turf is due to the wages fixed by the Turf Board. I know that from experience as Chairman of Westmeath County Council. It is a turf-producing area and we make a rule that it is the men who produce turf for Dublin who will get first preference on the roads afterwards. The wages paid to those who work on the bogs and the roads are too low and are a disgrace. The labouring man cannot live on them. The private producers who are trying to save turf for the national pool should be allowed a bread ration. Everyone knows that men going to the bogs have to bring everything with them. You cannot boil potatoes there and have to bring bread and you will not do with a dinner of half a loaf. Six half loaves mean three loaves a week, leaving nothing for breakfast or tea.

If the farmers are paid properly for the milk, there will be plenty of butter. If you pay more to the producer, there will be plenty of turf and butter. I am glad to see that the Minister for Agriculture has increased the price of butter. He has done it too late, shutting the stable door when the horse is gone. I told the previous Minister for Agriculture, outside the House, that there would not be enough butter if he did not increase the price, and my prophecy has come true. There is a black market going on in farmers' butter, but I do not blame the farmers. They are supposed to sell their butter at 2/4 and 2/8 up to this and stand up against the men in the creameries getting a subsidy. They are getting no subsidy. In order to stop the black market, a scheme must be created whereby the Minister would have agents in every town who would buy the farmers' butter at 3/1 a lb. and put it in the pool and sell it at 2/8, thus giving the farmer his subsidy. The Minister's remark in his opening statement was a most childish one, that he would refuse butter coupons to farmers. The farmers are paying the subsidy on butter as well as anyone else and it would not be a just arrangement. It would be going against the farmers and there would be no butter. By buying in farmers' butter in the way I have suggested, the black market would be checked.

With the present increase in price, I forecast there will be plenty of butter next winter. The price of milch cows is not out of line at all. We all know there is a certain quota for milch cows being shipped out of the country and the Minister for Agriculture can vouch for what I say, that that quota has not been filled any year for the last two or three years. You can buy a good milch cow now for £30 or £35 and that is not uneconomic, with the present price of butter. When the price was only 2/4, it would pay to sell the cow. At 3/1 it would be economic and butter should be plentiful. It would also stop the black market. We all know that, if you bring 1 lb. of butter into Mullingar or a local town, you have no trouble in getting 5/- for it. I am out to stop all that. Although I am out against all subsidies and I think they are the curse of the country, I recognise that we have to live under them. They put us in a false position. I hear the Minister for Local Government saying the farmers are getting so much subsidy for this and that, but those subsidies are not going into the farmers' pockets; they are going to make the cost of butter and bread lower for the consumers.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Are not farmers consumers?

Mr. Fagan

Yes, everyone is a consumer, but the whole subsidy is not going into the farmers' pockets is it?

Donnchadh Ó Briain

No.

Mr. Fagan

That is why we are put in a false position. It would be far better if all the subsidies were done away with, and men's wages raised, if necessary, instead. Let the butter be sold at 3/1 and if men cannot buy it their wages should be raised. If the subsidies were done away with, we would be a better nation to-day. We are living in a false position and if that were changed we would be better off. However, as there are subsidies, I am putting up this scheme regarding farmers' butter.

In the town of Delvin, three weeks ago, there was one petrol pump. It is not a big town and they are not a very enterprising people, and there is no garage, but the petrol pump was closed down and the farmers were left with tractors idle, as they could not get petrol to prime them. All that happened because one petrol company was jealous of the other. I would ask the Minister to see if something cannot be done to provide petrol for the pump in that town. The people for miles around depend on getting their supplies there.

I join with other Deputies in advocating the establishment of more industries. We have an industrial development association in Mullingar. For the past two years we have been anxious to start an industry there, but for some reason that we cannot understand, when we seemed to be on the point of starting one, a hidden hand intervened and the project disappeared. That is very disappointing for the people. The people of Mullingar are quite willing to subscribe to the establishment of an industry there. The only thing we have is a pencil factory. My suggestion to the Minister is that when proposals come before him for the establishment of new industries he should encourage the promoters to spread out those industries through the country. Members of our association have been up to the Department of Industry and Commerce about the starting of an industry in the town but, as I have said, some projects which were mentioned disappeared just at the moment when we thought a start was about to be made. Before the war we had a fine lot of young men and women in almost every house in Patrick Street in the town. The only people there now are the fathers and mothers. That is the position in a town with a population of 6,000. All the young people had to go away because there was no work for them. I hope the Minister will help in the establishment of some industry in that town. The people, as I have said, are willing to subscribe money for the purpose.

Mr. P. Burke (County Dublin)

I listened yesterday to a leading member of the principal Opposition Party talk about the tourist industry. I was glad to hear another Deputy refer to it last night. My point is that if we were to take Deputy Coogan's remarks seriously, steps would have to be taken to prevent our brothers, sisters and friends from coming into the country to visit their relatives. It surprised me very much that the Deputy should, so to speak, suggest that we build a wall around the country to prevent our own people from coming back to visit their friends. He went on to say that the visitors were eating what food we had here to the detriment of those ordinarily resident in the country. Of course, the Deputy's point may be all right from his point of view, but in practice it surely would be ridiculous to suggest that we should stop our friends from coming back to visit the scenes of their childhood, some to visit their old homes and some to visit friends. I am firmly convinced that from 70 to 80 per cent. of those who visit the country do so in order to see their own people. They may have been away perhaps for years and have done well for themselves. Is it any wonder then that they should like to come back to visit their own country?

As regards industry, we all know that the Minister has proved himself to be a man of original ideas in fostering industrial development in the country. No words of mine, or indeed of the people of the country generally, would be at all sufficient to thank him for all that he has done. In the case of industry, however, I should like to see a greater spirit of co-operation adopted generally throughout the country. For example, I should like to see enterprising industrialists getting special recognition. I know, of course, that they have already got recognition, but my point is that a man of exceptional enterprise would get a special type of State recognition so that his efforts might lead to greater industrial success and to the creation of increased employment. The only way that we can make the country more wealthy is by increased production. I should like also to see industrialists giving every encouragement to their workers. The country that wants to be great and wealthy must develop its productive capacity to the fullest extent. That is the lesson to be learned from other countries throughout the world. The same applies to the agriculturist, if he is a man of enterprise. Not only will he be able to provide more employment for people but in the process of doing so he will become a more wealthy man himself. I happen to have in my constituency some of the most enterprising farmers not only in Ireland but in Europe. There is one man there who has about 200 acres of land. He gives employment to about 30 families throughout the year. He is producing commodities on the most up-to-date lines. In doing that he is providing a living for a number of other people and he is able to make a good living for himself. The grants provided by the Department of Agriculture are higher for a man of that type than for the man who is not so enterprising. The last harvest season, as we all know, was a very inclement one, and there was great difficulty in getting farm work done. This man, in his efforts to overcome the difficulties with which he was confronted, decided to give his workers 3/- and 3/6 an hour for working during the night. He also provided them with protective clothing. I know, of course, that the Minister is prepared to give every encouragement to efforts of that sort.

It would be a great thing, in my opinion, if we had some movement that would incite all our people to effort of that kind. It would be in the interests of farmers, industrialists, workers and of the country generally. In England recently, when the Labour Government were up against many difficulties, they called for increased production. Other countries have done the same. We know that, when supplies were short, prices were high, and in a situation of that kind it is the poor and the working-class people who are the principal sufferers. Any movement that would tend to create more employment and thereby keep more of our people at home—that would lead to increased production— would surely be very welcome.

With regard to turf production, I know that the Minister has definitely encouraged private enterprise but I should like to see it encouraged to an even greater degree. There are people in Dublin who have friends in bog areas or who themselves have come from bog areas and they could get turf banks near Dublin or in their native districts. The Minister should give such people every encouragement to cut turf and the Minister should consider giving them permits for the removal of turf to their homes. By that means, to the extent that these people would produce turf, there would be a saving of turf for the common pool. I am very pleased that the Minister has acceded to the request to allow lorry owners who take out a proper insurance for the purpose to take turf workers to the bog. That has been availed of in my constituency and I thank the Minister for making the concession.

The Government were reluctantly compelled to introduce bread rationing. In his own time it may be possible for the Minister to increase the bread ration for agricultural workers, especially those who live a distance from their work. I know that he has made a special allocation to certain classes of road workers and fuel workers. A number of people are anxious to produce turf for themselves and they would be glad to get a small extra bread ration to help them to do that work.

A Deputy said here last night that wheat did not pay. I am rather disappointed that, at this critical period in our history, any public man should make such a statement. There are farmers in my constituency who are very anxious to grow wheat. I know one farmer who this year has 90 acres of wheat and who last year had 80 acres and who prefers wheat to oats or barley because he gets a very good return for it. We were told by this Deputy last night that wheat did not pay. Not alone is wheat paying and not alone is it a national asset but it is an economic crop for the man who produces it.

I wish now to deal with the question of harbours in the County Dublin. While a certain amount of work has been done recently to improve harbours I should like to see them made more comfortable and more convenient from the point of view of the fishing industry. In Balbriggan, Skerries, Loughshinny, Rush, Howth and Dalkey and such areas, facilities for the fishing industry could be greatly improved so as to encourage people to engage in fishing. I would ask the Minister to have a survey carried out of the harbours I have referred to.

In a particular part of County Dublin where there was no restaurant a certain person went to a great deal of expense some time ago to build a restaurant. He has been refused a permit for tea, sugar and butter. There are no restaurant facilities in the area. I will give the Minister details about it afterwards. I know that he is doing his best but, in a case of this kind, where there is injustice, the matter should be favourably considered.

There has been a good deal of discussion in regard to our mercantile marine service. Every Irishman would like to see that service developed greatly and in due time I am sure it will be a great asset to the country.

The blacksmiths and quarry owners in County Dublin are looking for coal. The quality of the coal that is available has been criticised but I suppose we should be delighted to get any quality coal.

The position in County Dublin in regard to housing is the same as it is in every other constituency. There has been a good deal of private enterprise in this connection and the Minister has done his best in the matter of giving permits for the purpose of house building. While the local authority intend to build about 1,000 houses in County Dublin, we have to depend to a great extent on private enterprise for the provision of houses in the county. The Minister should definitely encourage private enterprise and help in every way possible those who want to get on with the building of houses.

Sand and gravel contractors are doing a very useful service at the present time in bringing supplies to Dublin and other centres for house building. There is in my constituency a number of concrete-block makers who have applied to be placed in a certain category for the purpose of obtaining an extra petrol allowance. I would ask the Minister to consider giving these people an extra allowance of petrol so that they may carry on the work they are asked to do.

There is a matter of grave importance calling for attention in the constituency I represent, that is, the matter of coast erosion. In Skerries, particularly, certain houses are threatened. I have referred this matter on many occasions to the Department concerned and I know the Minister is taking steps to protect the coast-line of County Dublin. I know that this is a national problem and a very big problem. Coast erosion is taking place in Donabate, Rush and other areas, but Skerries is the only place that I know of at the moment where houses are threatened by it. Anything the Minister or the Government would do in regard to that matter would be appreciated.

During the year, I had on many occasions to contact the Minister and his Department, especially during the harvest drive, when I had the pleasure of organising 84,000 volunteers at Parnell Square. I want to thank the Minister and his officers for the courtesy and consideration and for the expeditious manner in which they dealt with any representations I made to them.

Mr. Murphy

My contribution to this very long debate will be very brief. I intervene only to emphasise two or three matters which I think should be emphasised as fully as possible in this debate, which provides the only opportunity we may get for some time to refer to the matters in question. I want to reinforce as strongly as I can what has been said in connection with the threatened closing of the branch lines, with particular reference to the constituency I represent. I think the Minister should know there is a great fear throughout the country—I can speak with personal knowledge of the part of the country I come from—that if and when application is made to him to grant the closing of the lines, having regard to what has been said already by Córas Iompair Éireann, the application will be agreed to. I want to say to the Minister that I have rarely in recent times seen such feelings of resentment aroused as are aroused generally by this threatened proposal. People are apprehensive, in view of the statements which have recently emanated from Córas Iompair Éireann about the liability which branch lines constitute to the country and about the desire of the company to get rid of these branch lines, which they term "uneconomic". In fact, that is not a new story, because over a number of years this question of the branch lines has agitated even the predecessors of Córas Iompair Éireann.

One town in the constituency I represent—Kinsale—has never recovered from the effects of the closing down of the branch line which connected that town with the railway system. The people have never forgotten that and they are apprehensive of what may happen elsewhere. This is a very serious matter for the people who avail of the services of the Clonakilty extension, the Timoleague and Courtmacsherry extension, the Skibbereen to Baltimore extension, the Skibbereen to Schull extension, and I want to emphasise strongly the feeling of the local people that the Minister should adopt a very firm attitude when this matter comes forward and refuse to lead himself to the closing of these lines. Such procedure would in every way be unsatisfactory for the people concerned and constitute a very severe loss to a large number of faithful servants of the company whose future in such circumstances would be very black and uncertain and would, I think, in respect of what I have said generally, be a very retrograde and backward step.

There is another matter which I wish to bring to the Minister's notice. In spite of all he has done, and I grant him the best possible intentions and appreciate his willingness to help in the matter, household deliveries of paraffin oil in West Cork still remain very unsatisfactory. The best that can be said in certain districts, which are only about two miles from the town, not the very remote districts, is that for up to and including December last the delivery has only recently been cleared and that for the period from December last up to the present time— up to a week ago, in any case— delivery had not been provided for by way of the monthly supply. The Minister will agree that that is a very unsatisfactory position, and I trust him to do everything he possibly can in this connection to get some emergency arrangements made in order to bring the deliveries up to date. Storage and location have been represented as the main difficulties of the distributing companies. I know that at the railway stations in certain towns in West Cork there are considerable storage facilities which have remained derelict and which, I think, could quite easily be made available for the storage of large quantities of kerosene, and some emergency arrangements could be provided by which the storage facilities at the railway stations in certain towns— Dunmanway is a particular case that occurs to me—could be utilised for serving the countryside for many miles around from such temporary depôts. The situation is a bad one, and I think the Minister must see that the continued failure of the company to meet their obligations in this matter is a source of continuous and very increasing dissatisfaction.

May I ask the Minister to look specially into one other matter and that is the question of the discrimination between certain types of workers in regard to the provision of an extra bread ration? I have in mind a number of workers in an industry in West Cork which gives a very considerable amount of employment—the slate quarry industry. Quite a number of workers there have been successful in their applications for an extra bread ration and others have been refused. The difference between workers who are designated slate workers and other workers who do other types of work in the slate quarry is very little. Some of those workers have been refused, and I know cases of people who have been refused and who are actually travelling seven miles each way to and from work. I think the Minister will agree that if for no other reason than that at the end of a journey of seven miles there would be necessity for having some food—and, of course, it is an accepted fact that the midday meal of the workers concerned must be partaken of at their work—he might, without jeopardising the whole bread position in the country, make sure that the same rule applies to all workers in such an industry. I think that other workers who are a considerable asset in the present drive for tillage and who are engaged in the dredging of sand in the various places along the seaboard—Courtmacsherry, Leap and Glandore—and who have to do their work in a way which is directed by the tide are also entitled to an extra bread ration. Sometimes they have to work at very early hours of the morning, and they certainly cannot be expected to go ashore for their midday meal, and I think the Minister should reconsider these cases. They represent a very important contribution locally to the agricultural economy of the people at the present time and I think the Minister will readily grant that there is a fair case for having these cases included.

The Minister is aware with regard to mineral development that West Cork formerly made very substantial contributions to the mineral resources of the country and that the development of those resources afforded very considerable and well-paid employment. I refer to the development of the barytes deposits in various parts of West Cork. There was a very considerable slump following the end of World War No. 1 from which the industry did not seem to recover and I am glad to notice that representatives of the Minister's Department, and perhaps other interests concerned, have been prospecting in various places recently in connection with those deposits. I hope the Minister will give some indication that there is a likelihood of a development in that connection in the early future. It seems to me that if this industry affords the possibility of development to anything approaching the old standard of employment that it provided at one time, with the development of the flax industry and other possibilities I have in mind it would afford a very large measure of employment in West Cork and eradicate unemployment to a considerable degree in a large number of areas there. I think the Minister will agree that if that can be achieved it would be an excellent thing. There is also the question of some deposits of manganese. I have seen in cross-Channel and other papers recently that very considerable interest is being manifested in the production of manganese. There are some deposits of manganese in Glandore which, I suggest, might be examined with a view to seeing what can be done in that connection.

Finally, might I remind the Minister, as he has already been reminded, that the whole unemployment position remains unsatisfactory? I think the Minister would do well after this Estimate has been passed to examine how far this chronic unemployment can be eradicated by his activities and the activities of his Department. Ultimately, the success or failure of the Minister in his office will be judged by this matter, because there is a solid massing of opinion in this country that this chronic unemployment, with its miserable intervals of insufficient and meagre charity or assistance of one kind or another, represents in the end a decaying position in this country. It is sad to remember that over a period of 125 years since statistics first began to be taken our population, according to the most recent census, has reached the lowest figure yet recorded. Surely, with the inroads that have been made on the population and with the possibilities that there are for employing people, if there is a bold firm lead in this matter, the Minister should be expected to indicate what are the possibilities in this connection. It is appreciated, of course, that the present position does not afford the best opportunity of doing that in a thorough way; but the present position will not be a permanent feature in the life of the country. Surely the Minister ought to be able to say that, with the end of the present emergency difficulties, his policy for giving effect to the ideal of full employment, to which he has paid homage on more than one occasion, will be taken up and successfully carried out. I trust the Minister will be able to give some information on these matters to which I have referred.

Mr. Donnellan

Very often a Deputy tries to make a case but spoils it by going too far. That applies to Deputy Burke, of the Fianna Fáil Party, who has just spoken. Deputy Burke is very interested in the tourist industry. I would remind the House that the Government give a grant in aid of the tourist industry, and that our county councils, including my own council in Galway, also contribute a certain amount. Deputy Burke, who spent most of his time congratulating the Minister, as he does on every occasion, stated that from 80 to 90 per cent. of the people who come to this country are our own people coming back here. If that is so, is not this tourist business all nonsense? These people would come here in any case and we would welcome them. Therefore, instead of making any case, I am afraid Deputy Burke did it a terrible lot of harm because, if it is a fact that 90 per cent. of the people who come to this country are our own people who were forced to emigrate, as some of them are to-day and will be, I suppose, for some time, they would come here even if there was not a tourist board or association in this country. If according to Deputy Burke, only 10 per cent. of these people are tourists, probably we are spending more money in that way than it is worth. I ask the Minister seriously to consider what Deputy Burke stated and, if what he said is correct, I think it is necessary that the Minister should think over the matter.

Deputy Burke referred to one matter that I have been trying to hammer into the head of the Minister for Agriculture. He spoke about the farmers in County Dublin that he represents and what they can do. He is a West of Ireland man, as I am myself, and he spoke about production and what a certain farmer in his area gets out of 90 or 100 acres of wheat and the number of families he is supporting by producing that amount of wheat. That is what I have been advocating, that you should get the people to produce the wheat who can do it, instead of compelling people to grow it who are losing valuable seed without having the return for it that they should have.

In to-day's Irish Independent I read an article dealing with a matter which I was awaiting the opportunity to speak about, namely, the question of transport in this country at the moment, especially in relation to the live-stock industry. I want to make it plain to the Minister, no matter what Córas Iompair Éireann may think about the number of lorries provided or what they will carry from fairs, that that system of transport will never be a success so far as fairs are concerned. I do not remember it, but I believe that at one time farmers used to drive stock some 60 or 70 miles from fairs. I was delighted to hear the Minister yesterday, in reply to a question, stating that Córas Iompair Éireann could not close down any line without his consent. In Loughrea we have probably some of the largest fairs held in the West of Ireland. At two fairs held there in the last six weeks the transport position was scandalous. Cattle were kept there until 9 o'clock at night in an attempt to get them away, but it was not possible to do so.

I believe that the whole idea of Córas Iompair Éireann, which is a business concern, is to make everything a paying proposition. I believe the day will come when they will make an attempt to have this branch line, and other lines that are not a paying proposition, closed down. We find that from the Department of Local Government instructions are going out to county surveyors indicating to them that all new roads must be 40, 50 or 60 feet wide. Is it the policy of the Government, and will it be a direction of the Minister's Department, that in the near future railway lines generally will be closed down and that Córas Iompair Éireann will operate upon the roads, which are being maintained by the ratepayers, so that the railways company will not need to pay for the upkeep of the branch lines and the whole concern will be a paying proposition? Is that the idea? I believe it is.

It is rumoured that very soon the West of Ireland from Athlone will be completely cut off so far as railway traffic is concerned. There is an old and a very true saying that a straw will show how the wind blows. I believe the game behind the extraordinarily wide roads is that soon all the traffic will go by road and you will have the ratepayers and taxpayers paying for the upkeep of these roads. Of course, these roads will actually be the lines for Córas Iompair Éireann in the future. I am sure the Ceann Comhairle, who is one of the elected representatives for the constituency which Deputy Killilea and Deputy Beegan and I represent, has got a copy of a resolution which was passed by the Loughrea Agricultural Show Society— at least, the accompanying letter says that he did. That resolution says:—

"That we, the members of the Loughrea Agricultural Show Society, representative of the traders of Loughrea and the farming community of the surrounding districts, protest in the strongest manner possible against the action of Córas Iompair Éireann in closing down the branch line between Loughrea and Attymon. We consider this action highly injurious to the agricultural and livestock trade in this locality and a severe blow to the present prosperity of the town and surrounding districts. We call upon Córas Iompair Éireann to reopen the line as soon as general traffic is resumed."

The letter accompanying the resolution says:—

"My committee has calculated that the permanent closing of the line will mean a loss of £20,000 per annum to the farmers of this locality owing to the difference between freight charges on lorries and on rail."

The letter goes on to say:—

"Examples of hardship obtaining in Loughrea since the closing of the branch line were experienced on the 14th April. Approximately 22 passengers bound for Dublin were stranded on the streets of Loughrea on that date, due to the fact that the buses on their way from Galway to Dublin were packed by the time they reached Loughrea, and the 22 passengers who had waited for one hour were turned away."

Just imagine the predicament in which those people in Loughrea, and I expect other portions of Galway, found themselves. When the buses left Galway they were packed and no other person could get accommodation on them. The letter refers to what happened at the fair there. It says:—

"At the March fair (cattle and sheep) held in Loughrea on the 28th March scenes of confusion never before experienced in Loughrea were witnessed in the loading of cattle and sheep."

I am not so terribly dense that I do not realise that these lines were closed down on account of the shortage of coal, but I should like to know from the Minister is there a danger that, on the instructions of Córas Iompair Éireann or at their request, he will consent to the life lines of such towns as Loughrea being cut off. If he does that, it will paralyse all the small towns. What will towns like Loughrea do? They will simply be paralysed because, as everybody knows, all these towns depend on their railway lines; their progress depends on their fair and markets. That applies particularly to an important place like Loughrea, which is the home of live stock in South Galway. I appeal to the Minister to be careful that this is not the game, that eventually, in five or ten years' time, we will find all the railway lines removed and Córas Iompair Éireann carrying all the traffic over the roads. This may be the thin end of the wedge.

The Minister may say that that could never happen, that it would not be possible to do it, or that, if it does happen, quite as good a service can be procured. We in Galway and the West of Ireland generally are very anxious about this matter. I am sure Deputy Bartley and Deputy Mongan, if they were here, would agree with me. When the line from Galway to Clifden was closed down, glorious promises were made of accommodation that would be as good and even better. We saw what happened. People in certain parts of the west could not get a bag of flour during the emergency. It is said that transport is as good there as in days gone by, but I know it is not. That was the thin end of the wedge and it warned the people of Galway that they must look out and see that something similar will not happen on other lines.

Deputy Beegan last night referred to turf production. I believe that in Galway the county council expects something like 138,000 tons—that is the target. I am afraid it will not be possible to get that much. I find that where our council are cutting the turf there are only two men cutting and a ganger standing over them, whereas some years ago there were 15 or 20 men cutting on the same bogs. I do not think we will be able to reach the target in Galway and it is quite plain to see the reason. As Deputy Beegan pointed out, the wages there for turf cutters amounts to 45/- a week, whereas they can go to Bord na Móna and get 56/- a week. Naturally they will go there. The Minister may say that there will be greater expense on them when they go there. If those men were paid at home the same wage—or near it—as they get from Bord na Móna, they could work for longer hours and more turf would be produced. It would be much better to pay them a good wage at home rather than to allow them to work for Bord na Móna.

Emigration was referred to by many Deputies and the Minister has got a lot of advice on that subject. As regards emigration, there are only two ways of preventing it. One is the placing of our people on the land and the second is the placing of our people in industries. The industrial side is that with which the Minister's Department is concerned. Very often one hears people in this House talk about emigration and offer advice as regards the development of our own industries but I am sorry to say that some of these people are prepared to make very little sacrifice themselves in that line. Probably we are all to blame. I remember on one occasion listening to the late Arthur Griffith addressing a meeting and he expressed the hope that the day would come when every man listening to him would be wearing clothes, hats and boots of Irish manufacture. It was only then, he said, that we could be real Irishmen. If we were to apply that test to every member of this House I am afraid there are not many of us who would prove equal to it. As a whole, I am afraid the Irish people are not doing their duty in that line. Irish industries would flourish much better if we supported them as we should.

Last week, when I was coming up to the Dáil, two chaps in my area who have tractor ploughs asked me to try to get them points. I travelled the city in an endeavour to get two dozen points for these tractor ploughs, but failed to do so. I happened then to meet Deputy Blowick, who is very friendly with a certain firm, and I asked him to get in touch with that firm to see if he could obtain these points. By great work he succeeded in getting half a dozen. This week I am on the job again, for the simple reason that these two tractors would be idle except for the six points I gave them, but I am afraid I shall have to go down this week without any. That shows that things are not as they should be. At least the firms here in town should have these parts in stock. Of course, the Minister may say that it is a matter for the tractor owners themselves, but when these chaps started work they had quite a lot.

I desire also to make a strong complaint to the Minister on the matter of paraffin supplies. I really do not know what the Minister and the officials of his Department think of the conditions under which the people in rural Ireland are supposed to exist. There are parts of Galway to which the December ration of paraffin has not yet been delivered. During the months of January and February some houses in parts of North Galway had not even a candle. The Minister may attribute responsibility for that to certain companies, but I suggest that it is his responsibility to compel these companies, if necessary, to deliver paraffin oil to these areas. Listening to debates in this House sometimes, one would imagine that there were only two places in Ireland—Dublin and Cork— and that nobody should give any consideration to any other place. Yesterday we heard a lot about the ports in these places. I heard Deputies state that they could hardly deal with all the traffic in the Port of Dublin. References were also made to the Port of Cork, but not one ha'porth did we hear about the Port of Galway. Very often supplies landed at the Port of Dublin have to be conveyed by rail across the whole of Ireland to Galway, traffic which could, with a little better organisation, be delivered direct to Galway by sea. Galway Port deserves some consideration. A large quantity of stuff for the West of Ireland could be shipped to Galway Port and it would probably be delivered much more cheaply to business houses and to people generally than under the present system. It would also help the port financially. The ratepayers of Galway have already contributed substantially to maintain the port in a proper condition. Some Deputies have made strong appeals for Cork and others say that the Port of Dublin is overcrowded. It is necessary, therefore, for me to say that some of the traffic intended for the West of Ireland should be diverted to Galway Port.

Finally, I would ask the Minister, above all, to be careful as regards the moves behind Córas Iompair Éireann. It is generally said throughout the country that Córas Iompair Éireann rules the Government. Personally I do not believe that. Some people go so far as even to say that Córas Iompair Éireann is the Government, that Córas Iompair Éireann can do as it likes. I am one who has yet to be convinced that that is the case. I know that the Minister is a man who is always able to form his own opinion whether it is right or not. He is always able to support that opinion, though on occasion I have to disagree with him. I have not the slightest doubt that the game behind the policy of Córas Iompair Éireann is to cut off every railway branch line in Ireland. The game from the Local Government Department is to widen the roads. We are to have wider and wider roads, and eventually the ratepayers and the general public are going to be asked to pay for a road surface over which Córas Iompair Éireann will carry the whole traffic of this country.

Seosamh Ó Cinnéide

Ba mháith liom chur síos ar cúpla rúdaí a bhaineann leis an Roinn seo—ceist na mbóthar iarainn, ceist an ghúail, ceist na long, ceist na h-ime, ceist an aráin agus a lán rúdaí eile. I find myself in practical agreement with the last speaker on the question of Córas Iompair Éireann. It has given the people in my constituency, myself and, I think, the people all over the country food for thought. I know that you want railway-minded people to keep the railway open. You want the co-operation of the people but my opinion is that Córas Iompair Éireann, as at present managed, and efficiently managed, is road-minded and has been all the time. I am one of those who, for the past three, four or five years have made a determined effort with the people in my town and the small towns round about to keep Float Station on the Inny Junction-Cavan line open. We made sure that firms in Dublin who were sending goods to that area sent them via Float, but we discovered that when the stuff got as far as Mullingar. It is alleged that, road at Mullingar. It is alleged that, although the Dublin firms consigned the goods as via Float, the consignment note was changed at the depôt in such a way that the goods were delivered via Mullingar. In addition to that, the men operating the lorries or the inspectors—I do not know which, but this statement was made as a statement of fact at a meeting in the past fortnight which the traders attended—canvassed the traders and got them to sign a Córas Iompair Éireann prepared document that they wanted their stuff delivered to their doors by lorry in preference to having it delivered to the station. That being so, my charge that the management of Córas Iompair Éireann is road-minded seems correct.

It would be disastrous for this country, which lives principally by the production and export of live stock, if all the branch lines were to be closed because they were not economic and all the cattle which go from Float and Crossdoney and other stations had to go by road. They are making loading banks of every man's back garden down in the Midlands and they do not care a thrawneen about shoving a big lorry against a man's garden fence and putting cattle up on it at a fair. They are probably using the excuse that the railways are not operating at present, but I am very much afraid that the psychology behind the whole thing is "To hell with the railways. Widen the roads; transfer all the traffic to the roads; and do away with the permanent way." It would be fatal for this country if that happened. To my mind, successful transport depends on a good shipping service to all the ports provided by a good mercantile marine, on good harbours and good railways, and I advocate that that should be Government policy. The little experience we have had of conditions in the short time in which we have had no coal supplies to run our goods services shows us that if we allow the idea that everything should go by road to become a fact, it would be very bad for the people who will have to bear costs which will hit them hard in comparison with those which they pay for rail transport.

Deputy Fagan talked about butter and from the Opposition benches the charge has been made against the Government that for a number of years past they have allowed the cow population and butter production to go down. He said that there is plenty of butter in the country, in contradiction of his Party's propaganda for a number of years past, and he is stating a fact. He stands over what happens in Mullingar and other midland towns. The farmers of £100 valuation go into the town and sell their butter at 5/- a lb. as he admits—there have been prosecutions in the courts in respect of this practice—and then they go into the shops and draw their butter ration. Surely that is a terrible state of affairs. I do not care if the price of butter is raised to 3/1 per lb., as he advocates, the same thing will be carried on. If we all looked at it from that selfish point of view in relation to everything we produce and every service we give, we would never get over the emergency.

Deputies have advocated, and have rightly advocated, an examination of the bread rationing system. There should be better supervision and more scrutiny of the work performed by the worker who sends in his form. I know one small town in the Midlands in which a number of people are engaged at timber work, which is very hard work. They all sent in their applications and they were all turned down. One particular labourer, however, whose average is about ten weeks' work in the year—he dodges the column for the remaining 42 weeks and draws unemployment assistance—was the only one in the town to get the increased ration. Surely such a position needs examination and I suggest that the claims of those who are engaged in hard work should be scrutinised more minutely by the Guards, and, if the bread is there, they should get it.

I want to add my voice to that of Deputy Murphy and other Deputies who spoke about the distribution of paraffin oil. I believe the oil companies are not giving a fair deal in this matter. I cannot see why a lorry should delay for hours when distributing paraffin. The facts are the same in my constituency as in West Cork and Galway, and, around Old-castle, they had not completed up to lately the delivery of the December ration. The people in the area were without candles for part of the time. It was not very long, but they had no candles for a period. I understand that the ration is to be extended all through the summer and I suggest that the Minister's Department should examine the possibilities of getting containers for the country people so that they could get them filled up at the depot and avoid having the experience of black winter. I am very much afraid that during the summer months, when the lorries are taken off the distribution of oil, these people will not get their summer ration.

That brings me back to another matter relating to road transport. I suggest that there should be a relaxation of the regulations and that private lorries be allowed back on the roads because the private lorry owner will deliver goods in half the time it takes to deliver them now. He will not delay for half an hour outside a shop delivering a case of onions. He will get away and earn his money. He will not play a laissez-faire game or sabotage the industry he is engaged in.

I agree with all that has been said with regard to the need for a quick decision in respect of better wages for men engaged on the bogs because we will not get the production if it is not done immediately. There are about 33 unemployed in my town and there is a private producer in Navan who produces turf for County Meath in tens of thousands of tons. He sends his lorry on circuit and collects the workers. He gives them a good wage, but they have to produce so many cubic yards of turf for that good wage. The council hesitate about putting a lorry on the road, while this man comes into a village and says: "I will be ready on Monday morning" and, by giving a better wage, he gets the men, with the result that the people of Dublin will be waiting for Westmeath's quota of turf. I therefore advocate a quick decision with regard to wages.

Deputy Murphy spoke about mineral development in West Cork and it struck me that I have heard old people around my area say that coal was produced in the hills of Loughcrew up to 1847. I should like the Department to examine the possibilities of getting coal there. If the Department approached the matter scientifically and if the minerals are there, I am sure they will tell us, but, at the same time, I am suspicious. I pointed out on one occasion that there was fireclay in a part of my constituency. A certain officer of the Department visited the area and turned out an alleged manufactured product as the result of his investigations. He reported negatively on his research and I found, in six months' time, that he had the same manufactured article for four or five other constituencies. I was afterwards told that he was not an expert at all.

A great deal has been said in this debate about the very important subject of our exports and imports and about the dollar pool. I am very glad to see by the papers that two of our leading people have gone to Holland and Switzerland to inquire as to the possibility of developing trade with these countries. I do not like to see tens of thousands of pounds coming in here, either for cattle or in connection with the tourist trade, when we cannot make use of those pounds. If we can get agricultural machinery from Holland and other things from Sweden and Belgium, we shall be better off. If we can export our fish direct to the Continent or elsewhere, instead of sending them to Billingsgate and having them shipped from there, and if we can send our wool direct to Holland, instead of sending it to Sheffield and having it sent from there, we may be able to arrange a great many things by direct exchange. We might be able to act similarly in connection with other products. I fully realise that we are in an emergency and that the Minister built up a Department of Supplies from the foundation and did a very good job. I realise, too, that we are in the aftermath of war and that the whole of Europe is faced with an immense food crisis. I advise the Minister, here and now, to examine the possibilities of potato rationing for next spring. I do not believe that there will be enough bread to go round. The present bread ration will not be available for any country in Europe. The Minister did immense work during the emergency and we should all pull together and help the country to get over the food crisis which we shall have to pass through during the next two or three years.

Mr. Coburn

Last Thursday, the Minister, in an unusually long statement which covered the whole field of industry and commerce, was candid enough to point out the serious difficulties which will confront our people in the future. Whilst listening to the Minister, I could not help recalling, in connection with his reference to the disappointment he experienced in not getting necessary supplies of raw materials, the truth of the old proverbs "There is many a slip twixt the cup and the lip" and "All is not gold that glitters." The Minister was very flamboyant a few years ago but I think that the past couple of years have proved to him, as they have proved to Ministers of other countries, that no nation can live within itself. It is going against the divine precept. The Creator Himself, when He made the world, made it mandatory on us to regard all mankind, without distinction, as our neighbours. We have to realise that fundamental fact. We cannot live without our neighbour, whoever he may be, even though he be an enemy.

I could not help reading into the speech by the Minister something of the McGilligan psychology and finding in it something of the straight talk which one associates with that muchabused Deputy—abuse due to prejudice in this House and throughout the country and, possibly, to educated ignorance—Deputy Dillon. It would seem as if the Minister had conferred with Deputies McGilligan and Dillon before he wrote his speech. All through the statement I could see the McGilligan mind and the Dillon mind, especially when he referred to the question of establishing whatever industrial production we are to have here on a solid foundation. I have been 20 years in this House and Deputy McGilligan made the same statement 20 years ago. In so far as was humanly possible, he ensured that, before any industry was set up, it would fulfil two conditions—that it would give good value and that the prices charged would be competitive. On the other hand, Deputy Dillon has preached the gospel, in season and out of season that, if we want to import, we have got to export. I was amused at the silly suggestions made by Deputy Kennedy about going to Holland and Switzerland for machinery— as if, by a wave of the hand, the Minister could go to Switzerland or Holland in the morning and get machinery. For what? For buttons? If we do not deliver goods to Holland or Switzerland, are they so philanthropic that they will send us machinery for nothing? What a silly suggestion!

To come back to the subject under discussion, I am not one of those who would wax jubilant over the difficulties of the Minister. I am just an Irishman like himself. It is our bounden duty, in these difficult times, to do all we possibly can to help the Minister out of the dangers that beset him. But we want to be sure of our ground. The first thing the Minister has got to do is to make a public pronouncement that, from now on, he has turned his back on this policy of self-sufficiency and that he recognises that this country cannot live within itself any more than any other country. In fact, we cannot feed ourselves. Yet, we had silly speeches by Deputy Corry and other Deputies and by their supporters in the country that they did not care a straw what happened in the outside world, that it might go up in flames for all they cared, that we could still live. Within the last month nature has contradicted that. The Almighty has brought it home to us that we cannot live without our neighbours. Let Deputies on the other side get that into their heads and this country may have some hope of succeeding in the future.

A few things are necessary to success. We have got to work, not to talk about it. In the second place, we should have less display of physical courage and more display of moral courage, a quality in which we are sadly lacking. In the third place, we have to recognise that this is a small country, with a population of less than 3,000,000 and with limited resources. If we want to live here, we must be prepared to live according to the standard which the country can afford. There is no use in attempting to create artificial standards overnight. One could say a great deal on the question of work and on the question of moral courage. Some people are speaking with two voices. There is a good deal of running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. I almost despair, it almost makes me feel I am losing confidence for the future of the country, when I hear remarks passed about men of the ability of Deputy Dillon and Deputy McGilligan, no matter whether they belong to this side or not. I would say the same thing if disparaging remarks were made about two Deputies of their standing on the other side of the House. It is not a great tribute to the fact that we are spending £5,000,000 a year on education. For instance, it has been stated here time and time again that Deputy Dillon was talking through his hat when he referred to the wheat scheme. The Minister in his statement — and the extraordinary thing about it is that not a Deputy referred to the most important pronouncement of that statement, with the exception of Deputy Dillon—indicated that he proposes to apply to the International Wheat Conference for 405,000 tons of wheat. I am sorry that Deputy Corry is not here. At an average of eight barrels to the acre, that would represent, judging on last year's figures, the produce of 600,000 acres or nearly 700,000. We were supposed to sow 600,000 acres last year and, according to the figures given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the quantity of wheat delivered to the mills was somewhere in the region of 300,000 tons.

Now, if the Minister's statement means anything, it means that wheat-growing in this country is finished. There will be very little wheat grown in 1948. I invite the Minister to elaborate a little on his statement. It is possible that he does not want to be caught napping again in 1948 and that it is imperative on him to make early application for a very large quantity of wheat, as otherwise he will not receive it if, in the future, he finds the people here are short of wheat. What I want to emphasise is that 405,000 tons is the produce of over 600,000 acres and we are being led to believe—and I believe it myself—that that is sufficient to cover our total consumption of flour. Deputy Dillon was laughed at, scorned, thought mad, when he referred to wheat-growing. We know we had to do it during the war, but when wars are over, you have to take things as you meet them. I do not subscribe at all to what was stated here some years ago by the Minister and the Taoiseach and I am glad that the Minister's speech now has proved that he is getting away from it. We are going to see to it that we will not be placed at a disadvantage if and when the next war comes. When war is over, we forget about it. Life would not be worth living if you started to prepare immediately for another war, especially in the economic field.

The best made plans of men go tumbling down like the proverbial house of cards. The Minister admitted in his speech that he hoped for greater supplies of materials. It is not his fault that they did not come. There were circumstances over which he had no control and over which greater men, greater governments and greater countries had no control. We have the example of the Labour Government in England securing a magnificent triumph, driving out of power the man who saved England and who saved Europe by a great victory. Before they were in very long, they had to deal with a greater enemy than the enemy they conquered and that enemy was economic pressure. That is the enemy we have to face and it cannot be faced with the revolver or the gun. The only way is to tighten our belts and face it and stick our chins out. We should have less of the soft talk which is going on about hard work and the things we have accomplished. If we want to get out of difficulty, we must recognise our shortcomings.

So far as I am concerned, I certainly will do my best to assist the Minister, because in assisting him and his Government I am assisting my own people. I hope the Minister will tell his own supporters, some of whom possibly say things down the country that are neither good for the country nor for the Party which they are supposed to support, of the need for speaking with one voice and not with two voices. They are lamenting about road transport and bad services now, but they should have thought of that when the Road Transport Bill was going through here. They cannot have it both ways. Once an Act is passed, it must be put into operation and we must stand by our own actions.

We heard a lot of talk about unofficial strikes and the harm they do the country. There again, we seem to be talking with our tongue in our cheek. We set up lovely Labour Courts and a lovely standard, but at the same time our ability to continue that is ebbing day by day. I suppose I know as much as the next man about trade unionism, as I am nearly the half-century in it and I am just as qualified to speak on behalf of the working-class. If there were a little more common sense, there would be no need for Labour Courts. I was engaged in as many controversies with employers as some of the prominent Labour leaders in this city or in any town in Ireland. We could always settle our differences around the table, as there was a little more common sense in those far-off days than we see displayed to-day, when education is so wide and we are spending almost £5,000,000 a year on it. You cannot make a country prosperous or rich by legislation or Acts of Parliament or the setting up of Labour Courts, the spending of unnecessary money and not getting a proper return. In spite of all the Minister has done, and done with the best of intentions, you still have all these little things turning up to defeat the object he has in view.

Like other Deputies, I want to speak about a few little matters that affect my own county. It is rather difficult to do that when one is conscious of the fact that the debate is being talked threadbare. However, we Deputies represent the different counties and naturally have to bring forward a few things that concern our people intimately. One of these is the question of supplies of coal to local gas companies. We have a very big gas works in Dundalk. I understand that the supply of gas there is now to be reduced from five hours to three and a half hours per day. I should like to impress on the Minister that Dundalk, like Drogheda, is a non-turf area, and that we have not the advantage, possibly, of as good supplies of turf as other parts of the country. For that reason I think that Dundalk and other towns in the County Louth can put forward a claim for special treatment in the matter of coal supplies. I recognise the fact that we have not got adequate supplies of coal in this country. That is a fact, no matter what we may say about coal development in Arigna or elsewhere. The only places where we can get coal from are Great Britain and America, and I hope that we shall be able to obtain supplies from both countries. I ask the Minister to pay special attention to the question of coal supplies for the gas works in the County Louth.

I now come to the question of building material. There is a lot of talk about supplies for the building of houses, but the brutal fact is that we have not got the materials that we require. We have not got the most essential material — timber — for the building of houses. There is no use in Deputies talking to me about our native timber. I can speak from experience of it. The man who would sell it for building 25 or 30 years ago would not be kept very long in a firm. So far as the building of houses is concerned, we can stop talking about native supplies of timber. We have to rely on the supplies that we get from outside sources. The Minister, in reply to a question, stated, I understand, that something like 15,000 or 20,000 standards of timber are imported. If we assume that it takes one standard of timber to build a fair-sized house, then the position is that we import sufficient timber to build from 15,000 to 20,00 houses. Deputy O'Sullivan said last night that Dublin alone wants 20,000 houses.

I am simply pointing that out to those Deputies who think that this is an easy matter. There, again, it is a question of supplies, a question of asking the Minister certain things which he cannot give. The Minister has to distribute the timber imported, not in Dublin alone, but in every town and village in the Twenty-Six Counties, because in all these places they are crying out for more houses. While on this subject, I should like to make a special plea for the County Louth. In Dundalk, and perhaps the same is true of Drogheda, we have three or four builders who rank with the best builders in this or any other country. We have builders' providers' establishments there which are being reduced to the status of a huckster's shop, due to the operation of some old rule or some old code of conditions drawn up some years ago to the effect that, unless these establishments imported through Dublin, they would not get on the list of accredited importers, and consequently would not be recognised as timber importers. I think that, during an emergency such as we have at the moment, these old rules and regulations should be wiped out. It is humiliating—I have had personal experience of it—if you go into a fine business establishment in Dundalk for a little timber—the big builders go there for their supplies, too—to be told that the firm cannot supply you because it is not on the list. The builders' providers there have to send for the stuff to the builders' providers in Dublin, and then it comes to them second-hand. That is not fair treatment for a town like Dundalk. I do not know whether the same thing applies in Drogheda or not. I want to make a most emphatic protest against the operation of that rule. Dundalk has been famous so far as building is concerned. Its builders and its workmen have always enjoyed the highest reputation, and it is too bad that the builders' providers' establishments in that town should be turned into a sort of huckster's shop in so far as the provision of building materials is concerned. I hope the Minister will do away with the regulation which prevents the builders' providers there from being put on the list, thereby entitling them to get their share direct of whatever imports of building materials the Government is in a position to procure.

I want to say a further word about house building. Possibly, like Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Dillon, I may now be taken as speaking against the development of home industry. Even at the risk of that, I am now going to suggest to the Minister that, in view of the acute shortage prevailing in the case of building materials, he should lift at once and without any reservation every tariff placed at present on imported articles and take in whatever stuff he can get, even from the ends of the earth, in order to enable the building of houses to be proceeded with. At the moment, there is room both for the foreigh made and the home made article. People, as I say, may try to misrepresent me about that. I do not want to close any Irish industry, but I have common sense enough to know that we cannot make any serious headway with the building of houses unless we get materials into the country. We should import all that we can get of them. Just imagine at the moment, bricks are £10 per 1,000. I remember when 10,000 bricks could be bought for what 1,000 bricks cost to-day. Again, on this matter there are some people and they seem to speak with two voices. They want houses at cheap rents but forget the fact that the building of a house to-day costs three times what it did some years ago. Houses which cost £600 to build prior to the war are to-day costing anything from £1,000 to £1,100. I used to hear the leaders of the Labour Party laying the blame for high building costs on the interest charges. The interest charges have nothing whatever to do with it. The Government have reduced the interest charges to 2½ per cent. yet houses are dear to-day, even though the interest charge has been reduced from 5 per cent. to 2½ per cent., for the simple reason that the cost of building has doubled, and more than doubled. £1,000 at 2½ per cent. is £25. On a house costing £500 the charge was £25. There is no difference. The Government is getting very little out of it. Doing the best they can, they cannot bring down the interest charges.

There must be a change. Much as we would like our local industries to prosper, and they are prospering, I re-echo the sentiment expressed by the Minister that there must be value. The welfare of the people is greater than the welfare of an individual. In other words, selfish interests must not stand in the way of the general interest. If he wants to reduce the cost of building as well as to speed up building, my advice to the Minister is, forthwith to remove all restrictions on building material of every description. Then there will be some little hope, with a little luck on the part of the Minister's commission that is out looking for timber and other building supplies, that we will be able to proceed with the erection of the houses which are so essential and so badly needed.

One would not like to be uncharitable towards the Minister, knowing his difficulties, but I think he has been let down in the matter of turf. I am afraid the people who are responsible for the production of turf have fallen down on the job. That brings me back to the tendency in this country of praising and lauding our accomplishments. In my early days you did your work or you got out. We want a little more of that spirit at the present time. Let these people get out if they do not do their work and we will get somebody else to do it. They must have lain down on the job. I read the whole of the Minister's speech and I cannot discover where he said what is the quantity of turf we need. We talk of thousands of tons and we talk of the county council being responsible for the production of about 600,000 tons. As far as I know, we used on an average about 2,000,000 tons of coal and, if one ton of coal is equivalent to two and a half tons of turf, it means that we should talk in terms of millions of tons, not hundreds of thousands of tons. I am not surprised, therefore, that there is a shortage of turf at the moment. The shortage cannot be ascribed entirely to the few weeks' bad weather. The possibility of bad weather should have been foreseen. There is no guarantee that there will not be bad weather up to the months of March and April. It is too big a risk, a risk which in my opinion should not have been taken, to leave turf on the bog. The farmer who leaves barely, wheat or oats out until Christmas does so at his own risk and to his own cost. There should be no mistake made this year. We should not cheese-pare in the matter of production and the Minister should see to it that those in charge of turf production produce the quantities required or he should know the reason why. I must pay a tribute to the late Hugo Flinn. When he was in charge of turf he visited the bogs and was in close personal touch with the position.

It is rather irritating to have to listen to remarks about the cost of turf on the bog, the cost of transport, the cost of handling, etc. When one considers the number of times turf has to be handled it is surprising to hear Deputies talking of the cost as being in the region of 50/- or £3 or even £4. I am prepared to prove that in some cases turf must have cost from £15 to £20 a ton. Some of the turf that I have seen delivered contained about 80 per cent. water as against 20 per cent. turf. Therefore, the actual turf cost on an average £10 a ton, apart altogether from subsidies. I do not blame the Minister for that. Weather conditions had something to do with it. Even if I got a ton of turf from the bog for nothing, before I would get it into my back yard it would cost a few pounds. The reason why I refer to this matter is because I want to emphasise the fact that I am not in a position to know what quantity of turf will be produced this year. The Minister has referred to it only in general terms and I should like to know the quantity that he or the Department consider would be sufficient. I think it would be much greater than the quantity that has been suggested.

There is a shortage of butter. In this matter I am handicapped because I always keep in mind the fact that this country in many instances could not support itself 100 per cent. and therefore I do not like to offer criticism. It is well known that when butter was scarce here in the old days we got Australian butter. Therefore, the people thought that we had any amount of butter. They thought we had any amount of bacon. We had, because we got American and Canadian bacon. They thought we had plenty of oats, barley and everything else. We had because we got maize and other products from other countries for pigfeeding. Possibly the reason why we are short now is that all those outside supplies are cut off. It is questionable really whether, even if we put forward our best efforts, we could produce sufficient butter to give the people the unlimited supplies to which they have been accustomed. Therefore, I find it difficult to criticise the Minister or his Government for the fact that we are down to a 2-oz. ration of butter.

I will say, however, that more butter is being produced in this country than we are getting credit for. Butter is being produced in a quantity sufficient to give more than a two ounce ration. There must be something wrong. Somebody must be getting extra butter. I would be very slow to do anything that would injure the tourist traffic or that would prevent people coming here. That traffic is very useful and may be useful to us in future. The Minister did hint, when he said that the tourist traffic made no difference as they were already included in the rationing scheme, that there were other ways and means of getting butter. I take it that hotels and other places must be getting very large quantities of farmers' butter in addition to the ration. I think that is very clear and it is just as well to admit it. It has been reported to me that butter is being brought surreptitiously across the Border. I do not know. The Minister for Agriculture categorically denied that accusation and, in justice, we must accept his word. The suspicion is there, however, that some butter has gone out.

There is a matter causing irritation to certain people and possibly the Minister, now that the emergency is over to a great extent, might reconsider it, that is, the revocation of licences. Certain traders in Dundalk and other towns, for a slight infringement of the rules laid down by the Minister's Department during the war, had their licences revoked. I know one case of a widow who had her licence to sell butter revoked. I would suggest that the Minister, at the earliest opportunity, when application is made to him by these people should reconsider their claims in a favourable light. These people have shed their crime and have made restitution for their little indiscretions. There are some, with whom I have very little sympathy, who engaged in illegal practices on a large scale for personal gain but the cases I have in mind at the moment are cases in which infringement was on a very small scale. I appeal to the Minister to consider their cases favourably when they are brought to the notice of his Department in the near future. Possibly he may make a public pronouncement on this matter and declare a general amnesty to those that he thinks have suffered sufficiently by the withdrawal of their licences during the last few years. That is all I have got to say on this Estimate which has occupied a very considerable time in debate. Of course, we got good example from the Minister himself. He must have seen the importance of it because he spoke for two hours and, as I said, gave a very candid survey, without any trimmings, of the whole position as it affected the people of this country.

In conclusion all I would say is that it is up to the people now to face whatever difficulties may come their way in the knowledge that in doing so they are doing it not so much for the Minister or whatever Government is in power but for themselves and for the sake of the country. The whole world has passed through very difficult times. The sun cannot be always shining. We have had, like the fly, the sunshine of success during the last six or seven years. Let us now emulate the busy bee and work a bit harder and I am sure we will be able to overcome our difficulties, please God, but that can only be done by greater production and also by striving to make our production such that we will be able to export and thus be enabled to pay for our imports.

The Minister gave some alarming figures. Our imports amounted to £37,000,000 and our exports amounted only to £35,000,000, over £2,000,000 less. Our imports from countries other than Great Britain or Northern Ireland amounted to £34,000,000, whereas we exported only £2,000,000. Those figures alone should convince Deputies, such as Deputy Kennedy, who spoke about trade with Holland, Switzerland, and other countries, etc., that if we want to import we have got to export to the countries from which we import. I am not well versed in this question of sterling. We all know, however, that most of our imports have come as a result of the dollars supplied out of the common pool in which Great Britain is at the moment. We are inextricably tied up now, in so far as our finances are concerned, with our neighbour across the water and we have got to make the best of the present position. I am sure the people of Great Britain in turn, recognising our difficulties, will see to it that we will not go short. If I could, as the saying goes, "talk a wee bit hard", I would be inclined to tell the people of Great Britain that we are entitled to a little more sympathetic consideration from them in regard to coal supplies. It is rather irritating for us in Dundalk to see four or five colliery boats going to Newry every week. We, too, are members of the Commonwealth—the Taoiseach said so—and we are just as loyal as the Northern Minister is, and they should consider that fact and send a few of those coal boats that are going up to Northern Ireland ports into Drogheda and Dundalk.

I wish to refer to the question of our harbours. The Minister, during the course of his statement, referred to the fact that he has already made very large grants for the upkeep and improvement of harbours, including £500,000 for Dublin port and others down in the South. Incidentally, he mentioned that the question of Dundalk Harbour and of other harbours so far as their development is concerned is under consideration. I would say that the question of many of our ports along the eastern seaboard in so far as keeping the wayfare clear is concerned is urgent. I think that it would be money well spent now that the Minister has passed Harbour Acts and given representation to the public bodies. There is no reason why, so far as the future is concerned, those grants should not be made available in order that the different harbour authorities will be able to keep the harbours in a proper condition, so that if and when trade improves they will be ready to receive the increased volume of trade that will come in the course of time. As I stated during the course of the debate when the Harbour Act was under consideration here, the greatest need of the harbours along the eastern coast is not so much Harbour Acts as coal boats. Until we get them in I cannot see any improvement. A great many changes have taken place during the last ten or 15 years, due to changes in our economy—I am not objecting. For instance, we are making our own cement now, formerly we imported it. We manufacture most of our flour, formerly we imported it. All that came in ships to our little ports. If our small ports are ever to come back to anything approaching their former days of prosperity, we must have increased imports from Great Britain and America. Therefore, without labouring the point any more, I do not like this tendency at all of concentrating all the trade of this country in a few ports, the excuse being that the ships are so big that they cannot go into the smaller ports, etc. I can only express the pious hope that the time is not far distant when ports like Dundalk, Drogheda, Wexford, etc., along the eastern seaboard, will be able to engage in the principal business in which they were formerly engaged, namely coal, and when that day comes our difficulties will, please God, be solved.

Mr. Commons

This very long debate has carried on a long while—this is the fourth day—and, like the saying of the walrus of old, we talked of many things and have covered a very big field of subjects in regard to trade, economy, and everything that the Department of Industry and Commerce has to look after. We have, needless to say, discussed everything and have talked of the seven years that have gone past and have planned for the seven years which are to come. We have sailed, as it were, the seven seas with a miniature mercantile marine and have got so air-minded that we have flown over the skies, but the plain, simple fact is, as outlined by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in a very honest and straightforward two-hour introductory statement, that the country at the present moment is not as good as anybody would like to see it or as we would wish it to be. I do not think it would be fair to be too hard on the Minister, because the Minister in a similar post in England is in an almost similar position. In every country in Europe the person who is burdened with the Department which deals with production and exports and imports finds himself in a very harassed position because of the emergency which always comes as the aftermath of a war. The clamour which has gone out from Deputies for an increase in this and an increase in that can very easily be answered by the Minister simply saying: "We have not got it; we are doing our best to import it; and we do not know where to find it." Therefore, we must try to build up an export trade equal to, or almost equal to, our import trade.

We have had talk of bargaining on the basis of pound for pound with our next-door neighbour. We realise, on account of our insufficiency of dollars, that it will be hard to establish trade with the United States. When everything is taken into consideration, there is an immense problem before whoever will be the Minister for Industry and Commerce for the next few years. The chief thing we have to look to is what we can export which will be most profitable. The Minister has admitted that and we all know that. It all comes back to what has been talked about in this House and outside it during the past 20 years, namely, that agricultural produce must be our basic export. We cannot at the moment hope to compete with other countries in the export of any type of manufactured goods. If our industrial economy is to be maintained, it must be based almost entirely on agricultural output. Our object must be to increase the output from every single acre of our land.

We have, unfortunately, a situation, and the Minister has admitted it, which may in the course of time force us to reduce our standard of living; either to consume less of our own produce so as to increase the surplus available for export or to do without supplies of imported goods which we may not have the wherewithal to purchase. We can hardly reduce our standard of living below what it is at present, because we are on rations, not altogether short rations, but very meagre rations, of many things of which we should have full and plenty. Butter is rationed; our bacon supplies are almost rationed. In fact, the only commodities we have to export at present are eggs and poultry. That is definitely a pointer that the agricultural industry, which should be the mainstay of the country now and at all times, has been neglected and forgotten and that the schemes for industrialising this country of the present Government and the former Government have definitely proved to be absolutely hare-brained and without any good in them. The figures with regard to our adverse trade balance are very alarming. We have an adverse trade balance of about £33,000,000, which definitely shows very bad management on the part of the Government. With the world as it is, now is rather the wrong time to think that we will be able to reduce our adverse trade balance when we have made no effort to stabilise the one and only industry which would be able to give us a balanced economy and increase the value of our exports.

The main source of worry of every Deputy, and I suppose even of the Minister, is the danger that the branch railway lines will have to be closed. Yesterday evening, when asked if it were true that the line from Athlone to Westport, with its branch to Sligo, was to be closed down, the only answer he made was that rumour very often spoke with a lying tongue. That was not an assurance that the railway would still be maintained there. I know that the railway employees in the depôt in Athlone are very perturbed by the rumours which are going about and by the fact that 81 employees in that western section have been paid off during the last four or five months. That definitely points to the fact that something is going to happen in connection with the western section of the railway. When the branch line from Newport to Achill was ripped up the Government promised that it would be replaced by as good a service and that the people of Achill would be as well off as when they had the line. The people of Achill know that the facilities provided for them are not as good as were provided by the railway. There is no use in saying that we can haul heavy loads over the roads in as efficient a manner as over the railways. The railway was laid down for the purpose of carrying heavy traffic and the roads in this country are not fit to carry that traffic at present.

Deputy Kennedy of the Fianna Fáil Party stated that it is the general opinion that Córas Iompair Éireann is road-minded. That is definitely proved by the fact that so much of the traffic has been turned on to the roads. Córas Iompair Éireann may have a motive in this, because the ratepayers will be forced to maintain the roads, whereas Córas Iompair Éireann would have to maintain the railway lines. Even though the cost to Córas Iompair Éireann of providing lorries and drivers may be greater than for providing engines and engine drivers, the turnover of profits will be greater from the road transport. For that reason rumour, which is supposed to speak with a lying tongue, may be speaking with a very truthful one. Time alone will tell that.

The Minister told us that coal, elecove tricity and power generally constitute our big problem at present. It is only nonsense for any Deputy to say that the Minister should provide us with more coal. We know that there is a coal crisis in England and how difficult it is for England to keep its own industries going. We know that the severe weather conditions as well as other things practically brought to a stand-still the entire coal output of England. It is only within the last month or so that the conditions there came back nearly to normal. It is hard for us to expect that Great Britain, struggling as she is to keep her head above water, will have any sympathy with us in connection with our coal problem, except to give us the most meagre amount that she can possibly spare of an inferior quality of coal, which is practically of no use, except that it is coal.

As regards pursuing the search for coal in this country, I say that now is the wrong time to go around, panic-stricken as it were, having geological surveys to see whether there is coal in large quantities in the Castlecomer or Arigna areas or in places where somebody 100 years ago was told that a man dug up a lump of coal when he was making a fence. Now is the wrong time to spend money on these searches. The Minister told us £35,000 had been spent exploring the possibilities of a bigger seam in Arigna and he hinted that the French experts indicated that it would not be worth spending more money and that it was a task that could be dropped.

We know that £35,000 is not sufficient to make a proper survey for coal seams. The first thing to consider is the depth of the boring. If we look to England, which is not so far away, we are told that the seams in nine out of every ten of the English pits, when the pit shaft or head is sunk, point in a westerly direction, which proves that the same seams should be in this country if we only bored deeply enough. On the other hand, it is doubtful if it would be worth while spending what would amount to millions exploring for coal. It is doubtful if it would pay in the long run. I remember reading, ten or 15 years ago, when I was very young, that a commission set up in England decided that if they could in any way provide fuel of any other description to keep their industries in motion they would definitely favour the closing down of one half of the pits in England, first, because of the enormous amount of pit disasters and, secondly, the danger of working in the pits from a health point of view. Several doctors stated that the health standard of England was being reduced considerably by the fact that men had to go down in the mines. I would be almost inclined to agree. While I would like to see coal deposits in this country explored to a greater extent, I would not be too harsh in my criticism of the Minister over the fact that he has not directed a more exhaustive exploration of them.

We have in this country a product which is getting plenty of encouragement, and that is turf. We have enormous tracts of bog. It has been proved on the Continent of Europe and in Russia that turf can be converted into electric power in a very successful manner. The Minister will get every encouragement from this side of the House in the scheme he has drawn up and in his encouragement of Bord na Móna to go ahead with its turf-producing schemes now and in the years to come.

The production of turf for domestic use, and particularly to meet the needs of the cities, is another problem. We are at least two months behind in turf production. The stocks in the cities and towns are depleted and consumers can get only the most meagre ration. Will this country be able to produce, between now and September, the amount of turf that will tide us over the winter? Anybody who knows the care and trouble that has to be taken with turf and how much the entire crop depends on the weather will realise that there is very little likelihood of sufficient turf being produced here to give a reasonable ration to domestic consumers who are in the non-turf areas and unable to supply themselves. At this time last year we had one crop of turf dry; this year we have not made a start yet. There are bogs where, in former years, ten, 15 or 20 men would be at work under a county council ganger, and now the ganger has only one, two or three men.

In several places schemes which were operated by the county council have to be abandoned because of the scarcity of manpower. That goes to prove that the tide of emigration over the past few years is leaving its mark in the country. We have sent men to produce coal for England. Why not give them equal or almost equal wages here and enable them to remain at home? That is the only way that turf can be produced. In that way you will have a sufficiency of turf for the coming winter.

If, 25 years ago, we had some enterprising man moving along the lines we heard so much about recently in relation to forestry, and if he had planted trees, we would now have an abundance of firewood. Trees of 15, 16 or 25 years' growth might not be fit for commercial use, but the very thinnings of the smaller types of trees which would have to be cut in the woods would be quite valuable as firewood. However, there is no use talking of these things. They merely represent lost opportunities. There is no use crying over them or expecting that we can do anything in that way overnight.

Agricultural machinery is an article that we should manufacture in greater quantities. There are a few factories in Wexford and they do a good job producing a very useful type of machinery. Any man who understands agricultural machinery will say that the Wexford product is as good as anything that is imported, with the exception, perhaps, of the more modern type of machinery for harvesting purposes. The Wexford factories have a rather inferior type of machine on the market, a machine of inferior quality. In my own locality I know that within the past week a farmer who wanted a swath turner, a haymaking machine, and who would gladly buy an Irish product, was forced to order one from across the Channel because the machine he would get at home would be of no use whatsoever. The Minister should endeavour to see that plant is installed capable of making even the smallest type of agricultural machinery. Any machinery made here should be more modern and should be made well up to the standard of anything we can import. If that is done, people will gladly purchase the products of native industries. The same remarks apply to other industries, such as textiles, boots, shoes, etc. If the products are up to standard, they will be bought. I am totally opposed to the policy of allowing manufacturers to send prices sky high. All these goods should be put on the market at a competitive price, otherwise the policy of protection simply means that you are keeping out the products of other countries in order that monopolists here at home may derive any profits they wish from the industries which they control.

The Minister has stated that several hydro-electric plants will be put into operation in the next few years. He mentioned especially the Liffey scheme from which it is hoped to generate 10,000,000 units, a turf-burning plant at Portarlington and several other similar plants with a total capacity of 135,000,000 units. These, with the Erne scheme, which is in course of construction, represent a much-needed development. Various industries could be started in many small towns and villages if the current were available. It would be possible to start various cottage industries, for instance, each of which would give employment to three or four or five people. As I said at the outset, the purchase of plant from outside sources will depend on our ability to provide exports to pay for such plant on a pound for pound basis.

In connection with fuel, it is pleasing to note that there is a definite hope of the maintenance of the present petrol ration, which seems to be satisfactory to everybody. There is also a prospect that our supplies of fuel oil and heavier crude oil will be increased. The only thing we seem to lack is storage space for these oils to enable us to renew the quantity used in current consumption by imports every two months. Much has been said of the success achieved by the employment of oil-burning engines on our railways. I have been told by an engine driver that the oil-burning engine has been a great success and that the power which it is capable of developing is well up to the standard of that produced from coalburning engines. The experiment, certainly, has proved well worth while. It is said that necessity is the mother of invention, and, were it not for the necessity created by the coal crisis, there would be no oil-burning engines in use in this country. The introduction of these engines, however, must have a certain effect on employment on the railways. There will be a definite reduction, I think, in the number of men employed, and I hope that the Minister will make some effort to see that such men are provided with alternative employment by Córas Iompair Éireann.

It is encouraging to note that there has been an increase in the supplies of foreign timber. The absence of such supplies has been a source of worry to carpenters, builders and others whose livelihood depends on the building trade. I think that people of experience generally will admit that the native timber we have been using in house construction for the past six or seven years was definitely not up to the standard of imported timber. Anybody who knows that trees have been felled in the woods, dragged to the saws, and put into use within ten days from the time the timber was felled, will realise the poor quality of that timber as compared with that which comes from Scandinavian countries which is usually left to season and to dry for periods ranging from six to ten years before use. The fact that we are going to get 25,000 standards of timber, which the Minister tells us will be almost sufficient for the housing schemes to be carried out during the coming year, will be welcomed by everybody engaged in the timber trade. There is no doubt that the scarcity of housing has been a matter of great concern to the people of the country. There has been a constant clamour for working-class houses, and also for the better type of houses for people who can afford to pay for them. The fact that a better type of timber is now available, for floors, staircases, roofing, etc., is a guarantee that the houses to be built in future will be superior to those built in the last few years.

Reference has also been made to the conversion of the plant at the cement factory at Drogheda to oil-burning machinery. During the past few years, we have been able to export a certain amount of cement in addition to providing for our own needs. If we could increase these exports, whilst at the same time producing sufficient for our own requirements, that development should be encouraged.

The Minister's references to the proposed development of our harbours struck a very welcome note. We have heard a good deal in the last few days about Cork Harbour and Drogheda Harbour, and we had also some references to Galway Harbour. I definitely have a complaint to make in regard to the treatment of the harbours at Westport, Ballina and Sligo. The people along the western seaboard engage very largely in pig production and poultry-rearing. Traders in these areas find that it would be much cheaper to export their produce direct through these harbours, and if it is a fact, as is suggested, that some of these harbours are in such a condition that fairly large-sized ships cannot use them, I think it is time that the Minister should make increased grants to enable them to engage in shipping on the scale carried on in former years. I see that a sum of £18,000 is being provided for Westport and £2,000 for the provision of cattle lairages at Sligo, but I notice that there is not a word about Ballina which was formerly a thriving port, and which, with very little expenditure, could be made a great asset for the people living in that area. A small quantity of maize is now being imported, and we are told by the merchants in the West that if maize intended for that area had been shipped through Ballina or Westport, it would be possible to sell it at 2/6 or 3/6 per cwt. less than it is when landed in Dublin, carried across the country and then distributed around the West. How true that is, I do not know, but it seems to me that those people whose duty it is to import it must be the best judges.

I turn now to a matter which has received quite a lot of criticism, the tourist industry. The only attraction we have at present for tourists is the fact that, if they have the money, they can get plenty to eat. We know well that anybody coming into the country as a tourist who can pay for it can have a better meal in Ireland than he can have in any country in the world, because while we may be on short rations, while we have only two ounces of butter and so many lbs. of bread and while bacon is almost a luxury now for the average man, there is definitely no scarcity of any of these commodities in the luxury hotels to which the tourist pays his call. It has been suggested that four out of every five of these tourists are of Irish birth and origin who come home to spend holidays with relatives. That may or may not be true, but a large percentage of people who have no connections with this country are coming here. They are not coming for holidays, because the weather we get is not such as to encourage any tourist to come in, with the assurance of getting a full week's fine weather in which to go on a hiking tour or a tour by car. It is very doubtful if, when the world gets back to normal, when France, Italy, England and Scotland get back on their feet, we will see any tourist from one end of the year to the other, and I therefore advise the Minister to move very slowly in this matter. Quite an amount of the people's money has been given for development of the tourist industry and I believe that this money could be devoted to something much more profitable.

We have our air lines, which have given rise to comment in the House and outside it, and one Deputy told us that the air port at Rineanna served no useful purpose, except that Miss Patricia Potts and such people landed there occasionally, looked at the photographer, tucked her parasol under her arm and stepped back into the 'plane again. I do not believe that. I think the airports here are of value to the country. They will have the effect of directing the attention of the world to this country and their existence will enable our Minister and Ambassadors to say abroad: "We gave you airport facilities and you will have to give us something in return". I definitely favour the establishment of airports, and I do not believe that Rineanna will be overrun by rabbits in ten years, as suggested by certain Deputies. I believe that we should have an efficient and comfortable air service to some point in the West. There is quite a large amount of tourist traffic to the West and it would be well worth the Government's while to have an airport established in that area and so enable people who wish to get to and from Dublin or England quickly to do so. That would be a step in the right direction.

To return to smaller matters, such as coal for blacksmiths, the position is that blacksmiths have suffered greatly by reason of lack of coal for the past six months. They have raked every hole and corner, every nook and cranny, in an effort to root out a shovelful of coal to enable them to carry on their trade, and anybody who has stood in a forge, as I did last week, and has been the efforts of a blacksmith to turn horse shoes or put into working condition agricultural and other machinery, can assure the Minister that a supply of blacksmith's coal is one of the most essential needs of the moment. The position has become so acute that acetylene welding plant has been installed by almost half the blacksmiths because the coal they have is so inferior in quality and so small in amount that it does not go any distance towards enabling them to meet the demands made upon them.

With regard to bread rationing, we are told that certain types of bog workers are to be allowed an extra ration. It is very wrong that any individual who goes to a bog to cut his own turf-the small man from the country, the farmer, or the worker from the town who can take a week's holiday to cut his turf—should be put in a different category and should not be allowed the extra ration given to the bog or county council worker. The Minister wants to encourage everybody to cut all the turf he can and those who do so must have their meals on the bog. Bread is the staple article of food of the person cutting turf and if the Minister could give the extra ration to these people—I admit it is very difficult—it would be very welcome.

With regard to paraffin supplies, the position west of the Shannon during the past winter was impossible of description. In certain areas, the December ration was not delivered until a week ago, and, in my own locality, the January ration was not delivered until the other day. One can imagine the difficulty of the average rural dweller trying to attend to his business in the dark, trying to do the work which has to be done in the average country household without any light, because these people could not get even a penny candle. The Minister has told us that the trouble is due to the fact that there are no railcars for the transport of the oil, but, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce, he should see to it that everybody in need of paraffin will get his supply, small as it is, on time and that nobody will have any difficulty in getting his ration when it is due. It would be too much to ask, though it should be mentioned, that an additional ration of bread be given to agricultural workers. Anybody who has had to follow a team of horses in the field knows the appetite one can get in the open air. The allowance of bread is not sufficient. I know that the Minister has a genuine excuse. He can say that he cannot cause manna to fall down from the heavens and that he cannot perform the miracle of the loaves and fishes but I should like if he could, at this time of the year, give to agricultural workers and private individuals who have to go to the bogs an extra ration of bread or flour to help them out with their work.

The cry for turf has gone out all over the country. In the county council of which I am a member, we had a strong appeal by the county engineer the other day for increased output of turf. He told us that, if every private producer would produce and sell one lorry load of turf extra—that is, four tons— we would be well ahead of the demand made on us by the Department of Industry and Commerce. I pointed out, and I point out here, that the private producer is getting very little help from the Government, because, immediately he sells that lorry load of turf, a valuer from the valuation office comes down, says that a certain income is being derived from the bog and raises its valuation. That system is very wrong and is discouraging the production of turf in my area. People say that, if they produce extra turf, their valuation will be raised and so they decide to provide only sufficient turf for themselves. The Government are making no effort to help those who really deserve help.

This debate has covered a multitude of subjects. It is, in reality, the most important Estimate that comes before the House. I suggest to the Minister that we have nothing so valuable to export as agricultural produce. We can increase our agricultural production almost a hundredfold if we set about it in the right way. It was interesting to hear a Deputy from Dublin say that wheat growing is a paying proposition. It certainly is around Dublin but it is not where land is poor. It is a waste of seed to put it into the ground in those districts because there will be no return. I regard it as the height of folly for the Minister for Agriculture to insist that wheat be grown in areas where the soil is not suitable. We could increase immensely the market for our poultry, eggs and bacon products. We have been told that we could increase our market for tinned vegetables, tinned meats and tinned foodstuffs, generally. If we direct our attention to these items, we shall be moving in the right direction.

We all know that we cannot turn our hands to the production of such things as motor cars, radios and a hundred other mechanical products which other countries produce. Therefore, we should turn our entire attention and talent to the agricultural industry—the only industry which this country is really capable of carrying on. Even though our agricultural output has been reduced almost to nothing. Even if we can get only 2 ozs. of butter and a few ozs. of bread, and if there is a scarcity of bacon and other things—even though that situation has arisen due to the bungling of previous Ministers, it is not too late to move in the right direction. Although I do not regard any Minister on the Fianna Fáil side as competent, I think that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is, as somebody here has suggested, the best of a bad lot. He is to be admired for giving us an honest expression of view on the insufficiencies of which he has spoken. The only thing we seem to have a sufficiency of in his Department is officials. It seems as if there were hordes and hordes of them there. We can be definitely certain that, if we make any representations to the Department of Industry and Commerce, by letter, telephone or personal call, we will find three or four officials falling over one another in their efforts to help us, one of them getting in the way of the other and, eventually, none of them doing anything. That is what I think when I go into those Departments. We get the finest courtesy in the world and it seems as if the officials were there to say: "Dear sir, we can do nothing for you".

The people in the country are wondering whether there will be another outbreak of war so that things may get plentiful again. That is the talk that takes place at the firesides— whether the big Powers will get at one another's throats, so that things will get plentiful again. Of course, that is all humbug and is only engaged in as a sort of joke at the way things have turned out. But our position is critical. Our imports are not sufficient to keep us going. We have an adverse trade balance and an insufficiency of dollars. If the Minister can improve on that situation, he will deserve credit but, under the present system of government and administration, I do not think that the greatest industrial genius or the greatest Minister for Industry we ever had could do anything—that is, under the capitalist system as it is at the moment. However, we can only leave the position in the Minister's hands and hope for the best.

Mr. Keating

I rise to ask the Minister to look seriously at the closing down of the two branch lines in Wexford, as all the beet produced in Wexford has to travel on one or other of those lines. If they are closed down, he should give a guarantee to those beet growers that the freights by road will not be higher than by rail. They have signed their contracts and it is up to them now to make the best of them. It would be unfair if they were treated as those in the cattle industry were treated. It has been stated by many speakers that cattle going from their counties to Dublin are costing 120 per cent. more by road than by rail. I have the experience and the figures to show that it is 150 per cent. in South Wexford. It means that those farmers are charged with a hidden tax and find from 18/- to 22/- per head extra in freight on their cattle. That comes out of the farmer's pocket and not out of the dealer's as if caught once he will not be caught twice.

There are very big fairs in the spring and summer in New Ross and there are always three specials of cattle and sheep at those two fairs—one for Waterford and Cork and the other two for Dublin. New Ross has been very badly treated for transport for a long time and as there are three counties, Kilkenny, Carlow and Wexford, coming into New Ross it makes the fair very important. If all those cattle had to go by road, it would surely take three days to get them out of the town, at the present rate. I am not blaming the men in charge of the Córas Iompair Éireann lorries or private lorries. Cattle very often get down in the wagon and others are jumping and pucking on them and it is impossible for those men to get the cattle on their feet again. It is not like in the railway, when my experience of travelling on the special cattle trains was that every time the train stops the guard goes along to see if there are any cattle down and put them on their feet so that everything is in order. There is no alternative with the lorries but to continue the journey. They have tried and tried again and the more they try to get them up the more cattle go down. I would ask the Minister to do all in his power to run special trains out of the fairs and take all the cattle he can by rail just for the sake of the cattle industry. Cattle get down and are almost trampled to death. They may look fairly well in the market, but in two or three weeks they will begin to swell and very often those cattle turn into screws.

As I told the Minister in my question yesterday, the train running from Wexford to Waterford via Rosslare runs through a great tillage country which believes in growing wheat and beet and in raising cattle. If there is not a railway service in that district, the stock will never reach its destination on the lorries. If the Minister does not allow private lorries to work along with Córas Iompair Éireann lorries, it will be a great handicap to the people.

There are not many pigs now, as pig production has gone down, but most of those bought in Wexford go to Waterford, to the Clover Factory and Denny's. Men with local lorries have been held up and told they are not to go there again as they have exceeded their mileage. There is no alternative for the people in the district but to send by lorry. The pig market is up and down: there might be a lorry load to-day and not a half load this day week; and there is an understanding between the men with private lorries and the pig buyers to work in harmony. They charge for the pigs according to the number and do not insist on getting the full freight for half a lorry. If the Córas Iompair Éireann lorries are employed and turn up and if the pigs are not there, they still have to pay for the lorries.

Another important thing is that we have two agricultural foundries in Wexford, which built up businesses of their own and were never a burden to the State and never asked for subsidies. Now, through lack of fuel, there are between 200 and 500 hands at Pierce's out of work. I suggest to the Minister that, if he could manage it at all—I know it is nearly impossible—he should find coal to get these men back to work. About 15 tons of coal a week Pierce's would require and if something does not happen very soon all these fine tradesmen will be going across the water. The majority of them are married men with young families, which they cannot support by walking about with their hands in their pockets. The men are anxious to work and the foundry is anxious to have the men working, as, in the first place, Pierce's agricultural machinery and ploughs are found in every town and they have agents in every town. I am sorry to say that replacements have nearly run out, points for ploughs and so on are at a very low ebb. In fact, farmers —myself included—are rationed and only got a small amount some time ago. If that position is allowed to continue, the ploughing will have to stop.

The same applies to the Star Iron Works. They have been making castings for tractors and so on and they are running very short of fuel, too. About 150 men are working there and they are on half time and only work three days a week. I was talking to the manager last Saturday and he said that, even at the half-time rate, they have only five weeks' more supply of coal. If the Minister could help to keep these men going, even on half-time, they would pay expenses. It is very necessary to keep the farmer in production, as you cannot plough or work any machinery if you have not the spare parts. There is a small foundry, St. John's, that makes castings, with about 40 men working. These men also require a little more fuel, if possible. I would ask the Minister to do all that he can. I know that it is almost impossible to try and keep these foundries going, to keep the men at home and the plough going. Farmers are from five to six weeks late with this season's work. That, of course, is due to the very severe weather we have had, but because of that it is more necessary than ever to have all farm implements well shod.

I might also point out to the Minister that the allowance of 6 lbs. of bread in the week for an agricultural worker is not sufficient. He has to work hard all day turning up the clay and generally has a good appetite. If he has not he will not be fit to work. I would ask the Minister to increase his bread ration. In conclusion, I again appeal to the Minister to help out the three foundries with a supply of fuel— to try and keep them going, even if it be only on half-time. I hope the Minister will do his best.

Mr. Kilroy

The winter and the spring have been so severe that, in my area, there has been a shortage of feeding stuffs for cattle. The position was so bad that potatoes had to be fed to the cattle in order to keep them alive. Over most of my area there is now a big shortage of potatoes, and in some places the people are in a very bad plight themselves. I would ask the Minister to give an extra ration of flour for the people there or, as an alternative, an extra quota of oatmeal and Indian meal. The people, as I say, are in a very bad position due to the shortage of potatoes, and I appeal for an extra quota of oatmeal and Indian meal to tide them over the next three or four months. The position there is so serious that something will have to be done, especially in Achill, Ballycroy and Erris.

There is also a bog development scheme in North Mayo which I would ask the Minister to get speeded up. I believe that the survey made should convince him that there is any amount of turf in North Mayo, and that a scheme should be started there. We have the men and the material. I would also ask the Minister to approve of an extra ration of bread for private turf producers who are cutting turf a distance of more than three miles from their homes. Some of the men in my area travel 10 miles to cut turf. It is hard to expect that they would be able to do such strenuous work unless they get an extra ration of bread. I submit that those private turf producers are entitled to that during the turf cutting season.

Reference has been made to the harbours around our coast by a number of Deputies. I ask the Minister that boats should be allowed to come into Ballina as they did some years ago. There is a fairly good harbour there, and it is a great hardship on merchant in the County Mayo to have to get their goods by train from Dublin when they could more conveniently get them if they were brought by boat to Ballina and other local ports. I also want to make an appeal to him about the pier at Belmullet. Last year it was dismantled, and so far as the future is concerned the place has been left in a very bad condition. If the Minister would get the channel at Belmullet dredged that would serve instead of the pier that was taken away and would be of lasting benefit to the area. If that dredging were carried out it would serve the needs of the local people for a long time. About 60 years ago it was dredged, but since then no suggest is done, a rapid current will be running there, and that will keep the channel clear. That, I believe, would serve the local needs better than the old pier that was there.

Mr. Spring

It is my intention to deal with a few matters which concern my constituents. I want to refer to the inconvenience caused to Tralee people who travel on the goods train which leaves Dublin at 8 o'clock at night. That train does not carry passengers for Tralee. Passengers for Tralee who travel on it are stranded at Mallow and have to go to Cork or to Limerick in order to get a bus connection. While that is so there is a goods train leaving Tralee at 6.5 at night. It carries passengers to Mallow, and the extraordinary thing is that in the early hours of the morning the carriages return empty to Tralee. I think that the Minister should take that matter up with Córas Iompair Éireann so that some arrangement might be made to give a connection to Tralee people travelling on the goods train from Dublin.

With regard to the closing of branch lines, that is not due to the fault of the Government or of the Minister but rather to the fact that we have no coal. I hope the Minister will be able to give me an assurance that the branch lines closed in the County Kerry within the last few weeks will be re-opened again. In the case of one branch line, that from Tralee to Castleisland, people from Tralee doing business in Castleisland town are at present greatly handicapped because there is no alternative transport at their disposal. We thought that Córas Iompair Éireann would put a bus service at their disposal, but that has not been done. In view of the present position the people are finding it very difficult to transact their ordinary business. I hope the Minister will make representations to Córas Iompair Éireann to put a bus service at their disposal. We find that the only branch lines operating at the moment are one in the County Clare and one in the County Monaghan. I wonder is that due to the fact that the Taoiseach represents the County Clare and that Deputy Dillon represents the County Monaghan? Perhaps the branch line in the County Monaghan has remained open because the Government were afraid that, if it were closed, Deputy Dillon would create fireworks in the House. At any rate, these are the only two branch lines open at the moment.

We are very thankful to the Government and to the Minister for giving a grant of £82,000 towards the repair of Fenit harbour. The Minister, I am sure, understands the position in which the members of the local harbour board find themselves at the moment. The harbour board has a mortgage of £80,000 with the Kerry County Council. Senior counsel has advised that the county council cannot write off that mortgage, and the position is that the Minister will not give this grant to the harbour board until the mortgage has been written off. I suggest that the Minister should introduce a Bill that would enable him to give this grant to the harbour board and thereby enable it to undertake work at Fenit harbour. If that were done, work could be commenced at an early date. The workers at Fenit and in the surrounding districts are getting very discontented, due to the fact that work is held up by reason of the difficulty created by this mortgage with the county council, and because they believe it looks as if the Department of Industry and Commerce were playing a game with the Department of Local Government. We want something definite, and I should like to see a start made as early as possible, because the workers of Fenit district, as the Minister knows, are affected by the second employment period and have no alternative, when they lose unemployment assistance, but to seek home assistance. I have had on several occasions to make representations to the county manager and the home assistance officer year after year to get relief for those people. Last year I succeeded in getting them off three or four weeks in order to give them a chance to go out picking blackberries. I would ask the Minister to consider this matter and, if it is necessary to introduce a Bill to deal with it, not to delay about it. We are anxious to see the work going ahead. £82,000 would give a great deal of employment to the people of Fenit and the surrounding districts.

I put before the Minister by letter, some time ago, the turf position in Tralee and Dingle and the Minister replied that he had had the matter investigated and that the St. Vincent de Paul Society in Dingle were getting turf from the one dealer already in Dingle. I believe that is all wrong, that that supplier had not sufficient turf for a number of people in Dingle, apart altogether from supplying the St. Vincent de Paul Society. We find it very difficult to get turf. I raised this matter at the urban council meeting quite recently when an inspector from Bord na Móna was there lecturing us on the importance of producing more turf. There is a rick of turf piled up in the barracks there for the last two or three years. This turf is deteriorating. It was offered to the merchants in Tralee but they were very slow to take it. I understand that the turf is not up to standard. In view of that fact, and in view of the fuel position in Tralee and Dingle, I would ask the Minister to make representations to the Department of Defence that this turf should be given to the St. Vincent de Paul Society in Tralee and Dingle. It is disgraceful that turf should be allowed to deteriorate for a number of years while at the same time we are asking the people to produce more turf. It would be an incentive to the people to produce turf if the turf that is already there wre given to the St. Vincent de Paul Society for the people of Dingle and Tralee. We know the people have suffered a good deal in the last few months, as a result of the scarcity of turf. Recently I witnessed a lorry load of turf arriving outside my door and being sold like hot buns at 2/6 a bag. Deputies may be surprised that I, coming from a turf-producing county, should make such statements but the position in all of Kerry is very bad, as bad as it was in Cork City or Dublin City. To help in the situation, the rick of turf lying in the barracks should be distributed to the people.

In reply to a question to-day the Minister said that blacksmiths are getting sufficient coal. That is not correct. I met a blacksmith from the North Kerry district and he told me that the last supply was delivered five weeks ago. I wrote to the Department for an allocation of coal for him. The coal merchant in Tralee would not give him coal until he got a letter from the Department. The Minister should see that coal is supplied to blacksmiths. At present blacksmiths are getting a great deal of work from the farming community. The blacksmith that I refer to had a number of farm implements in his forge which he could not repair because he had no coal and he asked me to appeal to the Minister to make some allocation of coal to the blacksmiths of North Kerry so that they could put the farm implements into working order. The farmers of North Kerry are industrious. None of them was brought before the courts for non-compliance with the tillage Order. Nearly every one of them tills three or four times what he is required to do by the Order. They depend solely on tillage for a living and it would be deplorable that they should be unable to carry out their work because the blacksmiths had no coal to repair their implements.

Lastly, I want to refer to the bread ration for road workers. I submitted a list of names from my county to the Department recently. In the case of half the names submitted an extra bread ration was granted and in the case of the other half the Department stated they regretted they could not give an allowance. All the workers whose names I submitted are in the same category. They are all employed by the county council, some as road workers and others as gangers. We all know that a ganger employed by the Kerry County Council or any other county council is just an ordinary worker. He may have to keep a book but he has to take out his shovel and work. I cannot see any differentiation between a road worker and a ganger. They are both doing the same work. The decision to give an allowance to certain workers and not to give it to others is causing disunion amongst the workers in the county councils. If the Minister wants to make inquiries as to the men engaged in manual work he should get in touch with each county surveyor and he will find out very quickly that they are all workers.

I would again urge the Minister to consider the question of coal for blacksmiths. This country is passing through a critical period and the farming industry is depending on machinery to carry out the work as quickly as possible. It would be a deplorable state of affairs that we should be talking here while farmers' implements were stored away in a forge while fine days were being wasted merely for the sake of an extra half-ton of coal.

Mr. Cafferky

This is the third day of this debate and I am sure the Minister is in a hurry to get it over. I notice that in opening the debate the Minister referred to our export and import trade and he sounded a note of warning and reminded the House of the seriousness of the gap that exists between our exports and imports. He went on to say that in his opinion there are only two possible ways of bridging that gap. One was by increasing production and the other was by the rationing of goods here so as to make them available for export. The seriousness of this situation will be obvious, the Minister tells us. It is obvious from the figures before me which the Minister gave a few days ago. If the position is serious, and I believe it to be so, I cannot understand how it is that the productive power of this country is not utilised, how it is that after their long term of administration the Minister and his Party have utterly failed to put into production the man-power of this country. Is it not obvious and inevitable, therefore, that we should have the gap that exists, of millions of pounds? If you are to have increased production, you must have the men and women to develop the raw material.

If we are to have an increase in agriculture we will have to put more people on the land. I remember the late Minister for Agriculture telling this House last year that it was only reasonable and logical for men and farmers to be leaving the land and going into towns and cities and elsewhere—there was nothing to worry about, there was nothing out of the ordinary attached to it. When we have got that mentality in the Government and when we have got that mentality at the head of one of the most important Departments of this country, governing one of the most important industries in this country, it is natural that we would have the gap of millions of pounds between exports and imports which the Minister alluded to in his speech. The Government and the Minister, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, have failed in so far as the development of industry is concerned, in providing a source of employment for our manpower. While the people of this country during this year have shivered under the blitz and under the cold for the want of fuel, thousands of our countrymen have emigrated to provide fuel for Great Britain. Thousands of our countrymen have emigrated to provide all kinds of things for the people of Great Britain. That in itself stands out as a condemnation of Government policy and a condemnation of the Minister for Industry and Commerce that he, as Minister for that particular section, has failed to develop industry and thus give employment to the manhood and womanhood of this country with the purpose of increasing production both for export and consumption here. We have in relation to our necessities been severely rationed, and have not quarter what we require of some commodities not to speak of what we would need in order to off-set our imports.

The Minister talked about the rationing of butter and he regrets the fact that we are to-day on a ration of two ounces. The Minister has in existence a rationing of two ounces. Is he aware that there is a large number of people who are unable to get the two ounces to which he refers? Small and all as that ration is, they are unable to get it because it is not available. If this ration of two ounces were made available to every single person within this State we would not have sufficient to go round and we would have to reduce it still further, perhaps to one and a half ounces or to one ounce. Before the Minister talks of increasing the butter ration to four ounces or to six ounces in the near future, he should first see that there is a sufficiency of butter to go round at two ounces per head, and when he has seen to that let him then talk about increasing the ration to four ounces or to six ounces.

The Minister then talks about the rationing of oil, in other words kerosene, and he tells us that a reasonable ration has continued over the period. There again, the Minister is mistaken. It is of very little satisfaction to the people in the country who are depending on kerosene to read in the public newspaper or to hear over the radio the fact that the Minister has allocated a certain ration of kerosene per week, per month or per year when such ration is not available. It is no excuse for the Minister to come along and tell us that the ration is available, that he is not to blame, that it is the transport and supply problem that is to blame. Is not he Minister for Supplies? Is not he the person responsible and does it not fall upon his shoulders and the shoulders of the Government, to see that each and every individual householder gets his fair share? Does he not realise the seriousness of the situation?

The people have gone since last December without experiencing the happiness or the satisfaction of having even a kerosene light in their house, having to do with a candle, and, in many instances, not being able to get a candle. The Minister now tries to bluff the public by talking about increased butter rations and increased kerosene rations when he knows that the people are not having the benefit of these increases and when he knows that in some instances the ration is not there to give to them even if he allocated it or ordered it to be allocated.

The Minister also talks about the development of electricity. I want to say, here and now, that this side of the House is very often misrepresented so far as the development of Irish industry is concerned. There are members of certain Parties on this side of the House who are opposed to the development of Irish industry but I want to make it very clear that the Party of which I have the honour of being a member is 100 per cent. with the Minister in so far as furthering the development of Irish industry is concerned provided that the industry established produces a reasonable article at a reasonable price and that the workers engaged in that particular industry are paid a wage commensurate with their labours. Then industry and the development of Irish industry will have the support of this Party. The development of Irish industry has got the support of this Party since we came into this House and if we have any reason at all to complain it is in relation to the failure of the Government to develop Irish industry further than they have done for the past 15 years. If the Minister intends to develop electricity in accordance with the outline he has given us in his opening speech I would like to ask him if he has really and truly considered that the people of Mayo are entitled to some share in the industrial development which his Party has in mind.

Does he not recognise that it is from the West of Ireland, the other side of the Shannon, that the great percentage of young men and women are constantly emigrating? Does he not recognise that these young men and women are the best type of citizens? Does he not realise that the young men and women who have left that part of Ireland have played a very important part in the development of other countries, both from the industrial and the administrative point of view? Should he not recognise, if that is so, and it is so, that the West of Ireland is entitled to some recognition, that Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim and other counties which have been neglected in the past are entitled to a share of the industries which the Minister has in mind in relation to electricity, the development of bogs and ports, etc.; that the centralisation of industry in Dublin and a few other cities and towns is altogether wrong and not in keeping with the policy expressed by the Minister a number of years ago when he sat on this side of the House?

Deputy Kilroy spoke of the large amount of turbary available in Erris and elsewhere throughout Mayo and referred to a survey made there a short time ago. Has the Minister anything definite to state in relation to this survey and what he intends to do if the survey proves favourable; in other words, if the quality and quantity of peat in these bogs are suitable to the development of electricity or for fuel purposes? What does the Minister intend to do? Is he going to sit tight and allow the constant stream of emigration from Mayo to go on without any desire to put a halt to it or to stop the best of our young men and women from going to other countries? How can he stop it? Is it by drafting them to Dublin or some of the other cities and towns, which may be to the detriment of the workers in Dublin and other cities and towns?

If they were left in their own counties, they could be utilised for the purpose of increasing fuel production and electric power. That would be more appropriate than using them for barter across the water in order to get a quantity of coal or raw materials which we require at present. I could understand bartering food for food or exchanging pound for pound, but I never thought that the day would come under the administration of a Government led by the Taoiseach when it would be necessary to barter human beings in order to secure concessions from the British Government which we have a just right to get.

The people of my constituency and the West of Ireland generally have been neglected. If the Minister thinks we will sit idly by and allow that to continue, I want to assure him that he is mistaken; that we shall have to organise and protest very strongly against this system which has brought about the depletion of our population and closed hundreds and hundreds of small homes in the west in the past six or seven years. As taxpayers, ratepayers and citizens, we shall have to demand from the Government equal rights with the citizens in other parts of Ireland, a due share of the benefits derived from that taxation to which we are contributors and of the development of industry in the future. Instead of the Minister concentrating the development of industry in the large towns and cities he should look around and see what can be done to maintain the people who are fleeing from the West of Ireland owing to unemployment and seeking a livelihood elsewhere in an environment which is not suitable for them from the point of view of religion and other things.

I do not want to make politics out of the fact that there was a scarcity of turf this year. We all recognise that, owing to the bad weather conditions, it took even those in the west who have been accustomed to saving turf for themselves all their time to save their own supply. We will allow that the Minister had a reasonable explanation for the shortage of turf which caused so much suffering in Dublin and elsewhere. But the Minister should recognise that, no matter how well saved turf may be, the present system of caring for turf when it reaches the City of Dublin, and even before it reaches Dublin after it leaves the bog, is not satisfactory. The Minister must recognise that turf must be covered.

Deputy Blowick has pointed out on various occasions that that can be done without excessive cost. It could be done at less than the cost which has been incurred owing to the inclement weather which we have experienced in the last few months. Thousands and thousands of tons of turf were wasted owing to the want of proper cover. Deputy Blowick pointed out on many occasions that the old tram lines in Dublin could be taken up and utilised for the erection of some covering for the turf stored in the Park. The stocks of turf in the Park are built up in such a way that the water does not run off them. No matter how dry the turf may be, if the water gets into it a large part of it will turn into mud within a few months. The Minister should consider the point made by Deputy Blowick. If he intends to continue turf production as a source of fuel for Dublin and elsewhere, he should take that step now and not a few years hence when he, or some one in his place, will have to make provision for the proper accommodation of the turf. He will also have to provide some kind of cover for lorries and railway wagons carrying the turf from the place where it is produced.

I understand that the Minister said that this would be the last year that county councils would be called upon to engage in turf production and that the entire work is to be taken over by Bord na Móna. The Minister will recognise that many people in the West of Ireland, where in some places the turbary is scarce, have had their rights infringed under the Emergency Powers Act. Their rights were infringed for the benefit of the community.

I am not opposed to anything that tends to the betterment of the community, but I would like the Minister to recognise that when the emergency passes and when control of turf production passes from the hands of the county councils into the hands of Bord na Móna, he should authorise this company to be careful how they act in relation to small farmers who have only a small supply of turf and who have, without any protest, allowed the county council to go in upon their property, cut turf and utilise the raw material in order to provide fuel for people in the cities and elsewhere. There are, of course, farmers who have large tracts of bog running to 50, 60 or 100 acres. There are others with only one or two acres, and there is no comparison there. The Minister should consider the man with a limited supply of turf, whose supply in 20 years' time may be exhausted. That man should be given some consideration and Bord na Móna should consider his position when they take control next year.

My colleague, Deputy Commons, pointed out that our county surveyor made an appeal to the people of County Mayo to utilise every moment in order to increase turf production. What has happened? Many people who have worked in the bogs, not so much from the financial as from the patriotic point of view, in order to bring the nation over the emergency and provide a substitute for coal, now find that the Minister for Local Government or the Minister for Finance is taxing them. Is that fair? The Minister and his colleagues in the Government, together with the head of the Government, on various occasions appealed to the people, from the national point of view, to do everything possible to provide a substitute for coal. The people did what they were asked to do and now they find, a few years afterwards, the same Ministers sending their inspectors to revalue property. They have sent out leaflets to be filled, asking the poor farmers in the West of Ireland what they have made in turf production over a period of years and they use that information in order to add to the valuation of holdings, the bogs being part of the holdings. That is most unfair.

I am not sure whether that aspect comes under the Minister's control, but, as a member of the Government, he should advise them to cut that out, so far as Mayo is concerned at any rate. I do not know the position in Tipperary or in the Midlands; let the Deputies who represent those places speak in regard to them. I advise the Minister to cut out the policy of increasing valuations because the day may come again when the Government will ask the people to be patriotic. If now they are to be punished through increased valuations, for being patriotic, some future Government will not get the same response when they call upon these people to do as they did in the past five or six years.

If you want to have increased turf production you must pay the men who produce the turf. I listened in bewilderment to members of the Mayo County Council making a case a week ago for officials in the county. They asked the council to give those officials an increase of 25 or 50 per cent. in their salaries. We were told that certain officials, such as the county surveyor and the assistant surveyors and other gentlemen, were indispensable. One gentleman told us that every day he looked at the wagon loads of turf going from the local station, he was further convinced that our county surveyor was indispensable and because of that he was entitled to an increase in his salary. But I heard nothing in relation to the turf workers. If we were depending on the county surveyors of Ireland for our fuel, I can assure the people in the cities and towns they would have experienced far worse suffering than they experienced this year.

It is not the county surveyor or his assistants who carried out the turf production. The people responsible for that were the men who pulled off their jackets, waistcoats and shirts, under a boiling sun. They cut and saved the turf. Then there were the people, men and women, young and old, who spread the turf, saved it and brought it to the lorries to be taken away. These people have been exploited and now there is an effort made to give excessive salaries to officials. I do not deny that those officials may have played a part, but it was a very small part compared to the part played by the bog workers. The officials would be very little use in providing that necessary fuel if the workers thought fit to put on their jackets and walk away. But they did not do that.

Now we find, when the increases are coming along, the bog workers are getting damn little compared to what the county surveyor and the other officials get. I say it is a damned disgrace. If the Minister wants more turf he will have to give the bog workers proper remuneration — the spreaders, the footers and those who haul the turf to the roadside; he will have to give them a wage properly related to the work they do providing fuel for the nation. How is it that the men who work in the Phoenix Park and who haul turf around the city—men who have the pansies' job, the easy, simple job, the men who will not bend their backs to put turf into the lorries but who use a fork to do so—can get a greater wage than the bog workers? Why are they regarded as doing heavier or more important work than the men in the rural areas who, with their families, have to work for long hours in the bogs getting the turf ready for transport to the cities and the towns?

What better is a married man in Dublin than a married man in County Mayo who has no fork to pitch that turf into a lorry? Here is the guy in the City of Dublin who has to work only eight hours, who is too damned lazy to bend his back and has to use a fork to pitch turf into a lorry while the man in Mayo cutting that turf must go down six, eight or ten spits and pitch out that turf eight, nine or ten yards. That man is given a miserable wage. If he goes on strike and demands a miserable increase, he is looked upon as a traitor to his country and to his fellowman. I say that if you want turf production you will have to pay for it and I maintain that the people who should be paid first are the people who have to do the hardest work and who make a real contribution to the solution of the turf problem, not the engineers and surveyors, and the gentlemen who wield the forks in the Park and who have got sheds to shelter them in bad weather. There should be more equality in relation to wages, more equality in the distribution of wealth and then we would have a better State. We would have less discontent, less strikes and less emigration. We should have more equality in relation to wages from the top to the bottom, from the first citizen to the simplest citizen in the land.

In relation to harbour development, I notice that £18,000 is being provided for Westport Harbour but there is not a word about Ballina. The Minister may have an explanation for that but I should like him to tell us why no contribution is being made to the Ballina Harbour authorities. Ballina is a reasonably-sized town and the people there are constantly complaining and asking that something should be done in relation to the development of the harbour. I think the people of Ballina are in a position to know the type of service that the harbour would give if it were properly developed. They are in a position to know if such development would be of benefit to the town. If the business people of Ballina maintain that the development of the harbour is necessary for trade and industry in that area, then I would ask the Minister to consider the matter and see if something cannot be done in so far as the cleaning, dredging and development of the harbour is concerned.

In regard to the question of transport, I should like to impress upon the Minister the fact that in a few weeks from now—in fact from this time onwards—hundreds of men will be leaving the West of Ireland to go to Britain. I am asking the Minister now that proper means of transport be provided from the West of Ireland to the City of Dublin. Am I asking too much in asking that an Irish Government and an Irish Parliament should take steps to provide transport for Irish men and women who are obliged to seek employment in Britain? Am I asking too much in asking that they be provided with proper seating accommodation, that they should not be treated as so many cattle huddled together in wagons and having to stand on journeys of anything from 200 to 250 miles? You will have girls aged from 17 to 25 rushing out in the morning, sometimes on empty stomachs, to catch the local bus. Some of them may have to cycle six or seven miles to the nearest bus stop or station and will not have time to get a proper meal.

The Minister well knows the various difficulties with which they are confronted in catching buses at places like Belmullet, Ballina, Westport or Newport. They may have to stand for the whole journey to the City of Dublin. When they arrive at Longford, sometimes they are not given five minutes to get a cup of tea. No more consideration is shown to them than would be given to cattle or pigs packed into a wagon. In fact they are treated with less consideration because the jobber who buys cattle or pigs will see to it that only the correct number is put into the wagon. These people are herded like so many cattle into buses and are often compelled to stand for the whole journey. Am I asking the Minister for too much in requesting that these people be provided with adequate transport by rail or road, that there will be adequate seating in the conveyances provided for them so that they can sit down and be comfortable on their long journey and that a sufficient time will be given them at some intermediate stage like Longford, Mullingar or Athlone, to get whatever they require in the way of food to sustain them on their journey?

Furthermore, I want to impress on the Minister that he should not utilise the powers conferred on him to prevent men who have been accustomed to go to England to earn a livelihood from doing so this year under the pretence that they are required for turf production or tillage work. I have heard of quite a number who have been stopped who were accustomed to go in former years. The Minister is well aware that the wages accruing from turf production are not sufficient to defray the expenses which these people have incurred since they came back from England last October. In a few months they will find, unless they are allowed to go to England, that they will not be able to get their usual supplies from their ordinary shopkeepers. The day is past when you could get food on credit. Now it is a question of cash down and if these people are prevented from going to seasonal employment in Great Britain, as they have been accustomed, it will ultimately mean that they will be placed in an embarrassing financial position. They will be unable to get the necessities of life or to repay the amounts loaned to them for the past five or six months. I would ask the Minister not to be too conservative in keeping these people at home on the plea that they are required for harvesting or for turf production.

A number of people in this House who claim to represent farmers have raised a clamour about the shortage of agricultural labour. I could understand a man who represents the ranchers, who represents the 500-acre man, like Deputy Kennedy, telling us that there is a shortage of labour. Deputy Kennedy no doubt would like these men to be in a position to get young men to work for them for little or nothing. He would like to see a position brought about in which these men, due to financial circumstances over which they would have no control, would be compelled to offer their services for little or nothing, for the bread and butter and the cup of tea that these farmers could give them. I say all the talk here about the shortage of labour is a fabrication. It is pure imagination. There is no such thing as a shortage of labour. If these men who are shouting about a shortage of labour will pay for it they will get plenty of labour. They can well afford to pay for it just as much as they can afford to attend races at the Curragh or elsewhere.

I should like to say a word or two in regard to the price of boots, shoes and clothes. I hear some Fianna Fáil Deputy muttering "tut-tut". I suppose he is anxious that I should finish. I should be very glad to sit down if I thought that Fianna Fáil Deputies would get up and continue where I left off in pointing out to the Minister the difficulties and the problems which confront the working class of this country. Rather will they get up and congratulate the Minister for the very satisfactory statement which according to them he has made, and end with that. It is because of that that we on this side of the House have to talk for hours sometimes to make up for the failure of those sitting at the back of the Minister.

The Minister is aware that the type of shoe produced to-day is very inferior. Take the working-man's boot. Very rarely will one find such a boot that could be described as watertight. The leather is inferior, and, if a man is making a drain or cutting turf, he finds that in a week the upper turns into paper which can be scraped off with the nail. For that pair of boots, he has to pay the exorbitant price of 47/- or £3. The same applies to children's footwear. The price of footwear generally is far in excess of what it should be taking into account the type of material used in its manufacture. It is all very well for the Minister to quote figures as to profits. Any man can quote figures and make them look as he wishes them to look, but the fact remains that the people in this business admit that they have too much profit. The fact also remains that working-class people have not got the purchasing power to purchase this footwear, and, if they cannot get these boots, we cannot get work done in the matter of turf production and land cultivation. I ask the Minister to go into this matter very carefully. As a man who was a business man in the past, he will recognise that the profits in this business to-day are too high, taking into consideration the inferior quality of the materials used in the manufacture of these boots and shoes. The same applies to clothes. Take a suit of clothes for a boy of 16 years of age. It is not possible to get anything under £8, which represents merely the cost of the suit-length, exclusive of tailoring. One cannot get anything that one would not be ashamed of under £8 and then the quality is inferior. How does the Minister expect the fathers and mothers of Ireland to clothe their children and provide footwear for them on the basis of these exorbitant prices?

I mentioned earlier the matter of imports and exports, and, while speaking, there came to my mind the tourist industry and the Minister's suggestion that tourist expenditure might help to bridge the gap between exports and imports. For the past couple of years, a number of people have been coming into this country, particularly Yankee soldiers of all ranks, and, when I speak of Yankees, I refer to soldiers from Canada as well. I want to know what they did with their dollars. I want to know whether they exchanged these dollars for paper money before crossing from Hollyhead, or whether they got an exchange for these dollars here. Dollars are a problem to-day, and I understand that the Minister said that, by next July, the dollar pool would be at an end.

I do not object to the tourist industry and I say that the Minister should build up the industry. No matter what may be said on the Opposition side of the House, I believe in it. I have been outside this country in places like Brighton, Worthing, Bognor Regis, Littlehampton, and Blackpool and what can be seen there is an eye-opener as to what the tourist industry can be and what benefit it is to a nation. England has nothing in the way of tourist attractions compared with what we have here, if we only develop them, but we must develop them. These things do not mature overnight; they take some time to develop.

Before continuing on that line, however, I want the Minister to tell me what happened to these dollars. Who got the benefit of them? Was it the British or Irish Government? If it was the British Government, I think it was a mistake. I have no objection to these soldiers coming in. A big percentage of them were of Irish origin, and, whether they were of Irish, Japanese or any other origin, it makes no difference. This is a democratic country which welcomes everybody, no matter what his creed, class or politics, so long as he behaves when in this State and complies with its laws, but I want to know what these soldiers did with their money and whether it was dollars or English pound notes that they spent here. If they spent English pound notes, has the Minister any explanation to offer, because these dollars would help our purchasing power in relation to machinery and other goods we require from America.

Our tourist industry is, and will be, valuable. The war has been over for scarcely two years and already I notice that in the Belgian Review, a bulletin distributed here, the importance of the tourist industry is emphasised and the Belgian Government has done everything possible within the past two years to get back the industry which was in existence before 1939 and to build it up. The French and Swiss Governments are doing likewise. In Switzerland, they have concentrated all possible energy on building up the industry and have made a success of it, and what is being done in these countries can be done equally well here. I cannot understand Deputies who take advantage of a position in which we are faced with difficulties and setbacks, some of which are absolutely outside the control of any man or Government, to make political propaganda. Such men or such a Party are no asset to any country and certainly no assets to a young nation like ours.

If we are to keep our boys and girls at home, it would be well worth the Minister's while to get figures and facts in relation to the employment given in Great Britain or Switzerland to young men and women during the tourist season and in preparation for the tourist seasons. I am sure the figures run into thousands and thousands of men and women employed. The industry in itself is one which is capable of absorbing a large number of men and women, not to speak of the amount of money put into circulation and the hundred-and-one other things which flow from the industry, in regard to advertisement of our goods and the materials we make here, the giving of a knowledge of the type of people we are and letting others see that we are a democratic people, a liberal-minded people, and that we can treat our fellow-men in a way equal to the way in which they are treated in any other democratic country in the world. A thousand-and-one good things can flow from it, apart from the employment given and the increased wealth provided.

In conclusion—I am sure the Minister is cursing me in his mind—I should like to say that the Government should recognise, whenever they start out to develop an industry, that they have the support of this Party. That was the first thing about which I got disgusted with Deputies beside me—their failure to develop industry and to find employment for Irish men and women. That was my first disappointment with that Government. They often link us up with other Deputies and other Parties as being opposed to the development of things which are good for this country. I can assure the Minister and the House that, so far as this Party is concerned, we are 100 per cent. in favour of the development and exploitation of the mineral wealth of this country with a view to keeping at home our man-power and woman-power, with a view to keeping our people in their own environment, where they can play their own games and have their own way of living, where they can visit their parents and, eventually, establish homes, thus increasing the wealth and population of the country.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

When I introduced this Estimate, I gave a review of the general economic position here. Some of the Deputies opposite referred to that review as "gloomy." I think that it could have been considered gloomy only by a person out of touch with the realities of our position. I do not know in what sort of dream world some of the Deputies who spoke have been living when a factual survey such as I gave could so appear to them. I did not intend to spread gloom. Quite the contrary. I think that the essential requirement for a common-sense approach to our problems is to get the facts known and understood. I should regard it as far more dangerous to have a feeling of complacency, based upon an optimistic interpretation of the facts, than to have a feeling of anxiety, due to a pessimistic interpretation of the facts. It is essential, if we are to do any constructive work in the economic and social spheres, to know precisely where we stand. That was my purpose in making the survey— to put the facts before members of the Dáil.

I did more than that. I attempted to give an outline of the action which. in my opinion, the facts called for. I endeavoured to make clear the general line of policy which the Government proposes to follow in relation to all the problems which I mentioned. I believe that it is along the line I indicated this country can get out of its difficulties. I believe it can get out of its difficulties in that way and in no other way. My view was not a message of gloom but a call to action. It is childish to suggest, as many of the speakers from the opposite benches suggested in the course of this debate and as members of their Party frequently suggested at public meetings throughout the country, that the causes of our problems—the upheaval in international trade which has resulted from the greatest war in the world's history, the financial problems caused by the weakness of sterling, the decline in the British coalmining industry, the shortage of steel, timber, petrol and the like—are just errors of the Fianna Fáil Government. I use the adjective "childish" in that regard. I do not think that it is childishness has driven Deputies on the benches opposite to adopting that policy. Senility is more likely to be the proper explanation of their approach to these matters. I do not know if the senility of their approach was ever more manifest than in their attempts to convince the people that the problems to which I referred in that survey are just political problems, capable of easy political remedy—the remedy of a change of Government. Do they think that the people are not aware of what has been happening in the world? Do they think that even the current difficulties about wheat, butter and fuel are not understood by the people to have been accentuated by the abnormal weather which destroyed our harvest last year and which has made recovery from the position then established difficult?

I am sure that many members of the Fine Gael Party winced when they read in the newspapers on Monday last Deputy O'Higgins' statement at a public meeting in the country, that we lived here in peace and plenty during the war, with no problems and nothing to worry us except the making of plans for post-war prosperity. If that statement were true, it would be the highest tribute that could be paid to the manner in which the Government conducted the business of our people during that period. But it was not true and every Deputy opposite knows it was not true. We got through the period of war with the greatest of difficulty. If we had peace, it was an uneasy peace and, instead of the plenty to which Deputy O'Higgins referred, we had many scarcities. From the day the war started until now, there was not one period of 24 hours in which anxieties concerning the immediate position were not resting heavily upon every member of the Government. Even if we had the leisure or the time which Deputy O'Higgins said we had, to prepare plans for post-war prosperity, does he think that these plans would alter the problems with which we are now dealing—problems which have their origin in world-wide causes? Do any Deputies opposite seriously believe that, in a world which has been devasted by war, any nation, even a neutral nation, can be better off at the end of it than it was before or even as well off or can become as well off except by the old process of hard work?

In the survey which I made of our economic position, I gave no facts which were not known or which could not have been ascertained by any Deputy. Apparently, many of these facts were news to the Deputies opposite. I merely attempted to put these facts in their proper order so that their significance would be understood.

I think that the line of policy which the facts dictate is so obvious that controversy concerning it is really eliminated. I know that the Fine Gael Party have difficulty in accepting that position, because they are tied to their past. This is a new world, with new problems. We will not be able to solve the problems which this new world will have for us, if we approach them with a pre-war mentality or the desire to justify pre-war policies. I would urge on the Deputies sitting opposite that they should forget their pre-war follies and deal with these real problems facing the nation in a sensible way. We will not get anywhere, if every, issue is going to be reduced to a political wrangle. First all, I think we must kill this idea that there is an easy political solution of these problems. We can get out of our immediate difficulties only by an almighty effort to produce all the food and fuel we can this year. We can get out of our long-term difficulties only if the habit of work persists and is directed by managerial competence and technical skill. It will not be easy, it cannot be easy, under any circumstances, but it will be made very much harder if the initiative, the enterprise and the co-operative spirit of our people is sapped by efforts to turn every issue to Party political advantage.

Deputy Morrissey said that I passed over the biggest factor affecting our position in the past year, which he described as unofficial and lightning strikes. If we are to have a discussion here upon the subject of strikes, there is no reason why we should be mealy-mouthed about it. Of 16 important strikes which took place in this country since last September, when the Industrial Relations Act came into force and the Labour Court commenced to function, only four were unofficial; and, apart from the unofficial strike of the workers employed in the sugar factories, the official strikes were far more serious, both in regard to the public inconvenience which they caused and to the hardships which they involved for the workers engaged in them, than the unofficial strikes.

This problem of strikes is one of growing importance for all democratic countries—it is only a problem for democratic countries, because in the totalitarian States the problem is effectively prevented from arising—and democracy must find an answer for it, an answer which will be consistent with the principles of human liberty which it represents. That answer will not be found by Deputy Morrissey's challenge to us to take sides concerning it or his allegations of sinister influences working a plan of social disruption. It may be, as Deputy Morrissey stated, that there is some Communist movement trying to work its way into the trade unions, with the purpose of causing social disorder. I think, however, it would be very easy to exaggerate both their number and their influence. They are not the essence of the problem.

Mr. Davin

That would not apply to the turf hauliers who are on strike, would it?

Mr. Lemass

Better ask Deputy Morrissey. I am quoting him.

Mr. Davin

They have nothing to do with the trade unions, anyhow. He knows that and so does the Minister.

Mr. Lemass

The point I want to make is that, whether it is true or not, it is not the essence of the problem. Strikes would occur, even if they disappeared or ceased from their activities. The problem we have to deal with in relation to strikes, which every democracy has to deal with in relation to strikes, is something more than a witch hunt. There is a problem there and it is no good denying the fact that it is there. I have never made any secret of my view that strikes and lock-outs are, or should be, now regarded as out-of-date weapons, as a carry-over from the day when employers and workers and Governments had fundamentally different outlooks on the problems of labour management and labour relations from those now prevailing. Nowadays, I think there is nobody who fails to realise that the old conception of a fundamental antagonism between employers and workers is completely wrong, that the idea of each of them squeezing the other for all it can get will lead only to the downfall of both and that, in any case, a modern Government will not be merely a disinterested spectator, as Governments were a generation ago, but will be a very active interventionist if the general public interest should so require.

I believe it should be possible for us to get a practicable and a rational method of settling issues in dispute between employers and workers. That is the idea which the Government had in framing and introducing here the Industrial Relations Act. I think I can say that I found, during the discussions which preceded the introduction of the Act, a general belief amongst representative spokesmen in both sides in industry, workers and employers, that we should make the attempt to find such a practical and rational method and endeavour so to apply it as to make the weapon of the strike or the lock-out as antiquated as I thought it should be.

Despite these 16 important strikes which have occurred since September last, when the Act came into force, I regard it as being remarkably successful. Let us not forget that, in that period, there has been a virtual revolution in wages rates, a general recasting of rates of wages and conditions of employment in a very large number of occupations. The number of intractable disputes arising in that situation must be regarded as very small. That is a tribute to the Labour Court, but it is also a tribute to the realistic and constructive approach to wage adjustment problems which was displayed by trade unions and by employers alike. I do not know what Deputy Morrissey had in mind in raising this issue and attempting to give it the prominence which he stated it required. If he had in mind to suggest that the Government should take power to prohibit or to prevent strikes, my answer to him is that such powers should not be considered until the possibility of a more intelligent and a more democratic method of dealing with the problem had been fully tried out. This is very largely a matter of education, of forgetting the antiquated outlook and the out-of-date methods of a previous generation and learning new methods. In this country, we have made as much, if not more, progress to that end than any other democratic country.

The important strikes which occurred since last September, both official strikes and unofficial strikes, affected only 5,500 workers out of a total labour force of 600,000. In only four cases was a recommendation of the Labour Court, made prior to the commencement of a strike, not accepted, and in no case was the resulting strike successful. In many cases the intervention of the Labour Court or of the conciliation officers of the court resulted in an amicable settlement of disputes which had led to stoppages before the court was advised of them.

I have no doubt that public irritation at the inconvenience caused by strikes, or annoyance at the spectacle of a small group of workers trying to force a minor advantage at the cost of widespread public damage, might make popular a demand on the Government to take powers to prevent such developments. The Government, however, has still faith in the policy of the Industrial Relations Act, and it does not consider that anything which has happened in recent months requires the revision of that policy.

Many Deputies dealt with the general questions of economic policy which I raised in introducing the Estimate. I do not want to cover again the field which I covered on that occasion. I was struck, however, by the fact that about one-half the Deputies who spoke from the Fine Gael Party wanted less interference by the Government with industry and with commerce, and that the other half wanted a planned economy. One is the antithesis of the other. If they want to know the attitude of the Government in that regard I have no hesitation in stating that we do not believe in a regimented State. We believe that we can get concerted action in support of a sound national policy by a process of education and instruction, leading to understanding by all sections of what is required, and that in our circumstances, having regard to the characteristics of our people, that is a much better process than seeking results by ordering people to conform to a rigid plan. But the process of education and instruction is not made easier by the efforts of Deputies opposite to reduce every issue to the level of Party political controversy.

I noticed also that Fine Gael Deputies have been unable to rid their minds of the idea that there is a necessary conflict between the policy of industrial development and the interests of the agricultural community. I referred to the necessity which our external trade figures appeared to suggest of developing exports and expressed my views on the possibility of developing exports in industrial products. Immediately a number of Fine Gael Deputies reacted by urging that it was by concentrating upon agricultural products and increasing the output of agricultural products that we can get out of our difficulties. There is no reason why we cannot do both, and there is no reason why one is in conflict with the other.

I admit that, in relation to agriculture, there are problems which do not appear capable of a quick solution. Deputy Blowick referred to what he called the catastrophic fall in agricultural production. The one thing that is remarkable about the figures for agricultural production is that, over a long number of years, they have not fluctuated at all. In times of booms and in times of slumps, in times of economic war and of economic peace, in times of world war and of world peace, the total value of agricultural production has hardly varied. The total variation has not been more than 5 per cent. up or down. That fact was appreciated by Deputy Roddy, who referred to it, and by Deputy Hughes, even though they failed to grasp its significance. In so far as increasing agricultural production is a mere matter of adjusting prices and markets, there exists at the present time every conceivable inducement to maximise agricultural output. We have the certainty of sale for everything we produce, we have good prices for everything that is produced, and yet that certainty of sale and the high prices now prevailing as compared with those prevailing previously, have not secured the expansion of production which we would desire. That suggests to me that there is, in relation to agriculture, a cause at work much more fundamental than was referred to here, and that if there is to be a substantial expansion in agricultural output we will have to have in contemplation a reorganisation of the basis upon which the industry is carried on here much more than a mere periodical revision of prices or the taking of the normal steps to ensure a market for its products.

However, I am not going to discuss the problem of agricultural production. I refer to it merely to dispute this idea that there is a necessary conflict between the expansion of industry and the development of agriculture. There is no such conflict. One is complementary to the other. Many Deputies told us that the prosperity of Great Britain was necessary for the prosperity of this country. The prosperity of our farmers is necessary for the prosperity of Irish industry, and the prosperity of Irish industry is equally necessary for the welfare of our farmers. We can quite easily devise and put through a policy which will have the dual purpose of expanding agricultural output and securing the prosperity of Irish agriculturists, and at the same time the making of an all-out effort to develop our manufacturing industry on a basis which will permit industrial exports even to competitive markets. Deputy Dillon told us that he could revive agricultural prosperity in two years. It was a fair bid for a position which, I understand, is now vacant, but I doubt very much if anybody will accept it without having some more conclusive proof of his ability to deliver the goods.

Practically every Deputy who spoke referred to our transport problems. Now, if we are going to have a discussion on transport policy or on our immediate transport problems, there is one fact that I want to get understood by the Dáil straight away I do not contemplate that public transport services in this country will be subsidised under any circumstances whatever. Whether I am speaking on this side of the House or on the other side of the House, in the Government or in public, I will oppose the idea of subsidising public transport services. I think that if the principle of subsidy is once admitted there can be no limit to its application.

I believe that the principle of subsidising transport services will inevitably, if adopted, make transport the plaything of politics, and will destroy permanently the possibility of having our public transport established upon an efficient and economical basis. Whether, therefore, we are discussing immediate problems or long-term problems, I want Deputies to understand that I will oppose, and oppose vigorously, any suggestion to reduce these problems or to avoid them by subsidies from public funds.

Mr. McMenamin

It is a charge to the public in the rates they have to pay.

Mr. Lemass

Transport must pay its way.

Mr. McMenamin

At the expense of the community.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy McMenamin has forestalled me. That is the principle that I think must be understood. Transport must pay its way. The rates at which transport is sold must be fixed upon that basis. The services which the country secures must be related to their economic cost. We cannot have services which we cannot afford.

I want now to relate that statement of policy to the specific questions affecting transport to which Deputies referred. I think a great many of the criticisms of the present services of Córas Iompair Éireann were very unfair. The railway services cannot be run without coal, they cannot be run efficiently without sufficient coal and, as Deputies know, for months past the company has had only enough coal to run skeleton services. It has been running scheduled goods services only on its main lines and on three days a week. It has had to abandon main line passenger services and completely to withdraw all the special services—the cattle specials, the turf specials and other services which were important to the commercial community. Now, when the cattle specials ceased, I could have made an Order stopping the movement of cattle for export and I think I could have justified that Order having regard to the circumstances then existing.

If we had stopped the movement of cattle for export it might not have been without its advantage in our efforts to secure an early resumption of coal deliveries. But I decided instead to ask Córas Iompair Éireann to endeavour to avoid the hardships and loss which the stoppage of freight services for cattle would mean to producers and traders and to substitute for the rail services which had to cease whatever alternative road services it was practicable for them to provide. Nobody pretends that road freight services are suitable for the transportation of cattle from fairs. They are not.

Mr. Donnellan

Nor ever will be.

Mr. Lemass

Nor ever will be. Everybody, I am sure, knows that it is not possible for Córas Iompair Éireann to carry cattle by road in lorries at the same rates as cattle can be carried in special cattle trains.

Mr. McMenamin

What does the Minister think of the prices charged for cattle that were submitted to him from here?

Mr. Lemass

Certainly, that is the actual cost to Córas Iompair Éireann of transporting cattle by lorry. I do not know if it is suggested that Córas Iompair Éireann should carry cattle on its road services at a loss. I am not prepared to ask them to do that. Córas Iompair Éireann, because of these difficulties, has already lost a very substantial amount of money. For the first quarter of this year its losses amounted to £500,000. Its total ordinary capital is only £4,000,000, and it cannot go on losing money at that rate without coming to a full stop. I am sure nobody here will urge that we should ask the general taxpayer to provide a subsidy to reduce the freight rates on cattle for export. I am not prepared to do it. Therefore, if Córas Iompair Éireann has to carry cattle by its road services, it has to charge for those services a price which will recover the cost of providing them. Fortunately, it has been possible now to restore in limited measure the special cattle train service, not for all fairs, but for all the larger fairs and, as the supply position improves, the number of cattle specials run will increase.

But I want the House to understand that the difficulties which have been voiced here as resulting from the provision of road freight services for the movement of cattle from fairs could all have been avoided if we had asked Córas Iompair Éireann to provide no services at all and had used our powers to restrict the unnecessary movement of cattle during that period of transport crisis. We asked them to provide the best services possible and we realised that those services would at their best be unsatisfactory and costly. I heard one Deputy here urge that Córas Iompair Éireann should undertake the cost of erecting loading banks for road vehicles in the fair greens of towns. Why should Córas Iompair Éireann bear that cost? Are there not local authorities? Are there not in some cases private owners of fair greens? Surely the obligation to provide the cost of erecting loading banks at these fair greens devolves upon the local authorities or the fair green owners? A number of local authorities have in fact provided suitable loading banks at fair greens.

Mr. McMenamin

Córas Iompair Éireann would not give them loading banks even at railways, much less at fair greens.

Mr. Lemass

Córas Iompair Éireann was quite willing to give the use of loading banks at railways provided they were indemnified against claims for damages against them if cattle were damaged in using loading banks which are not designed for road vehicles and provided also that they were indemnified against damage to their property by the use of these banks and wherever they got that indemnity they facilitated the local cattle trade association.

Mr. McMenamin

That is all eye-wash.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister listened in silence for four days and should be heard and must be heard.

Mr. Lemass

There have been many references to the matter of the closing of branch lines. I think the House now understands the position of the law in that regard. Neither Córas Iompair Éireann nor any other railway company can permanently close a branch line except under the authority of an Order issued by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Before that Order can be made by the Minister, the company is required by law to give public notice that it has applied for such an Order and the Minister is obliged to give consideration to any representations which may be made to him by local interests claiming to be affected.

Mr. O'Driscoll

Can the Minister say what "public notice" means? Is it public notice in the Press or advertisement in the railway stations?

Mr. Lemass

Public notice in the newspapers—that is the legal requirement.

Mr. O'Driscoll

I am glad of that.

Mr. Lemass

I am referring now to the permanent closing of branch lines. Branch lines are closed temporarily by reason of the fact that coal is not available to work trains over them but the abandonment of a line requires the making of a Ministerial Order, following the procedure I have outlined. I want, however, not to mislead the House in any sense in this regard. The chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann, at the recent annual meeting of that company, said: "There is now no doubt that all uneconomic lines must be permanently closed except where it is necessary to use them occasionally for heavy traffic." He expressed the opinion of his board of directors in that statement. I must not be taken as conveying agreement with that conclusion but, in so far as the House is anxious to be informed of the policy of the company, it was expressed in that statement made by its chairman at the annual meeting of its shareholders.

The permanent policy of the company in regard to providing transport services in the areas of these branch lines cannot, of course, be implemented until adequate equipment can be obtained. The position I have always taken during the whole period of the emergency in relation to these branch lines is that decisions on applications for their permanent closing must be taken only when it is possible to form a clear picture of the permanent position of the public transport services in the country generally and in the affected areas particularly. That is not possible yet. The branch lines which have been closed in the last few months were closed because, as the House knows, the coal to operate them was not available. There is, however, one factor concerning a number of them of which the House must be aware. Many of these lines are in a very bad state of repair and whether they may be closed permanently or whether the coal to operate them becomes available or not, some of them cannot be reopened until repair has been effected and repair may be difficult in the present period of shortages. In the case of some of these lines reopening may be possible, but full-scale working will be possible only when certain improvements have been effected. Deputies who want to study that question, however, should read the statement made by the chairman of Córas Iompair Éireann to the annual meeting a few weeks ago. He pointed out on that occasion that the railway company last year was able to operate its main line services with such satisfactory financial results that the freight rates were reduced. Many Deputies referred, in the course of this discussion, to the recent increase in freight rates. None of them referred to the fact that these rates were reduced in the previous year. He pointed out that the satisfactory financial results of railway working began to change when the branch lines were reopened. I am not going to offer an opinion on the various possible solutions to that problem. I again want to reiterate my view that we can have in this country only the transport services which are capable of meeting their economic cost and that we must endeavour to adapt our method of working transport, the type of equipment used in relation to transport, and the services that will be provided, in relation to the actual cost of providing them.

It is quite true, as Deputy Hughes said, that we have not now got efficient transport or transport at the right price. I do not contradict that. We cannot have efficient transport until the fuel difficulties which have restricted railway operations have eased, until new railway equipment can be procured or until new road vehicles are available in sufficient number and until the general plan of the company for the reorganisation of its depôts and lines has been carried into effect. I am convinced that when these changes have been achieved, and I believe this is also the view of the board of directors of the company, it will be possible to reduce substantially the freight rates now in operation even though many of the new costs which the company has to bear, such as higher cost of wages, must be regarded as permanent additions to its operating expenses.

Deputy Morrissey said that we are not making the fullest use of the transport now available, and many Deputies had in mind the possibility of permitting private lorries to carry goods for hire. I am not going to facilitate the development of a black market in transport. That would be the inevitable result of the withdrawal of the present restrictions on the transport of goods for hire in unlicensed lorries. If we grant that facility to the private lorry owner we cannot refuse it to the lorry that is now engaged in the transport of turf and timber, and if we do there will be no transport for turf or timber, because these lorry owners will inevitably go to the most paying traffics that are available to them. The system which we decided to adopt was to encourage Córas Iompair Éireann to hire all the lorries that were available for hire and to make arrangements with the licensed public hauliers to establish in every area a pool of road transport.

By that device we ensured not merely that the best possible use would be made of the available transport resources but that transport services would be available at the same cost to everybody and at a cost known to everybody. If everybody were entitled to hire out his lorry and to carry goods for reward would we have that result? For a considerable time past the total lorry fleet available, because of these arrangements, to Córas Iompair Éireann has not been fully employed and while some transport delays and difficulties may have arisen in particular areas over the country as a whole, transport facilities are available to carry the tonnage of goods that is moving at the moment. It will not always be so. I mentioned that we are going to have a first-class problem in transporting the turf this year and the other heavy traffics later in the year if the coal position does not improve to the point of enabling the regular working of railways to be resumed.

Some of the Deputies referred to congestion at the port of Dublin, and Deputy Corish in particular urged that trade should be diverted from Dublin to other eastern ports. Other Deputies made similar representations regarding ports on the western sea-board. Deputy Coburn referred to ports in County Louth. I will put this proposition to the House and Deputies can express their views on it at their leisure. We do not control shipping at the moment. The port to which shipping carries cargo is determined by the consignees of the cargo. We did at one time direct shipping and all the boats operating from Irish ports carried the cargo that we instructed them to carry to the destination indicated and brought cargoes to this country in accordance with our instruction. We abolished all that control.

Irish Shipping, Limited, is operating regular shipping services and is available as any other shipping company is available to carry goods to and from places as people desire. Irish Shipping, Limited, like other private shipping companies, carries cargoes in accordance with the directions of the owners of the cargo. Do Deputies contemplate that we should re-impose all the control over external trade that would be required if we were to take the responsibility of ensuring that trade was evenly disposed through the various ports? I do not think we should. If we are going to get that diversion of shipping from Dublin to other ports it is mainly the responsibility of local commercial interests, and of the harbour authorities who must provide the facilities that shippers will require at a cost which they will regard as reasonable. I know that some of the smaller harbours have a problem at the present time and that problem will continue to persist so long as there is a scarcity of the goods upon which they mainly relied. Some of the trade which they had in previous years will never come back to them but they can be developed to serve a useful purpose in our transport organisation and we are making available for their development substantial sums of public money. I want Deputies to understand that when they complain about ships going to Dublin instead of to Cork, to Galway, to Ballina or to Sligo they are complaining about something the Government does not control and does not propose to control. Any attempt to take powers to regulate that situation would involve such interference with the ordinary day to day conduct of commerce that it would, I am sure, give rise to an outcry from the parties affected.

Deputy Dillon made a reference to civil aviation and he referred to the air agreement with the United States. Deputy Dillon, apparently, has a source of information on such matters, but it is not a very reliable source. I may be wrong there. Perhaps he has been supplied with inaccurate information by someone who is using him as a sort of test balloon to ascertain how the wind is blowing. It is true that there have been communications between this country and the United States about various clauses of that agreement; but no notice of the denunciation of the agreement has been received from the United States Government, and I have no information to indicate any intention on the part of the United States Government to give such notice.

There were many references to our fuel position, and naturally so, because fuel is one of our major problems. Deputy Norton expressed doubt as to whether in fact we would get from the county councils and the turf camps the quantity of fuel which we require. These doubts are, of course, fully justified. I think it is unlikely, having regard to the delay in getting started this year owing to weather conditions, that the full target can be achieved either by the county councils or the turf camps. If, however, they do not produce the quantities indicated to them, we shall have a fuel problem of a very serious nature and it seems to me that the only possible way of making good the deficiency is to get the private producers of fuel to produce more.

If every private producer of fuel in the country produced an extra five tons or so over and above his ordinary production for his own use or for local sale, it would go a long way to fill the gap. I should like Deputies to urge upon all private producers that they should make that attempt. They can give these private producers an assurance that all the turf they produce for sale will be purchased from them and purchased at a reasonable price.

Mr. McMenamin

I made a firm offer to the Minister's Department on behalf of two young men in Donegal to produce 40,000 tons of turf provided they got petrol to take it the 30 miles extra. I got a letter this morning refusing that offer.

Mr. Lemass

I do not know the details of it. The Deputy probably has not given the full story.

Mr. McMenamin

The turf should be cut now.

Mr. Lemass

I think it is unfair for a Deputy to raise a question of that kind of which I have had no notice.

Mr. McMenamin

We have been asked from that side to do our duty and we will do it. Let the Minister do his.

Mr. Lemass

Let the Deputy do his Deputy Norton said that there are fewer workers employed in the camps than in previous years. That is true, but it is not due to any such causes as he had in mind. The recruitment of workers for the camps has begun later this year and has been impeded both by weather conditions and transport difficulties. So far as I know, there is no foundation whatever for his statement that many workers who came to the camps have gone away again.

A certain number of workers who come to the camps at the beginning of every season leave. That is inevitable. Turf work does not appeal to everybody. Some become attached to it; others would rather do any other form of work than that involved in the production of turf. But the percentage of workers recruited this year who left after finding out what the work was like was certainly not higher than in any previous year.

Deputy Morrissey urged that, in view of the possibility that we might not get all the turf we require, we should begin now to cut firewood for next winter. I do not think we should. This is not the season for cutting timber for firewood purposes and, in any event, it would be unwise to divert to the cutting of firewood any labour which could be employed on the production of turf, because a man will produce three or four times as much fuel on turf work as he will in converting timber to firewood. The position concerning firewood, however, is causing considerable anxiety. I have had urgent representations from the Native Timber Merchants' Association that commercial timber, which is essential for the maintenance of their business and necessary for a number of purposes, is being cut for firewood. They have made a number of suggestions as to how the situation should be dealt with which are being considered. But it is obvious to everybody that there has been some indiscriminate felling of trees for firewood purposes and that in the process good commercial timber has been included. I think, therefore, that before we undertake the systematic felling of timber for firewood purposes against next winter's need, we will have to have a much more detailed examination of the arrangements necessary to that end in order to ensure that the least possible damage will be done to timber stocks and that there will be a proper degree of supervision at every stage.

Deputy Everett referred to certain traders who were ordinarily engaged in the sale of timber for firewood but who were not licensed fuel merchants and who are being refused supplies in the ration areas now that firewood is rationed. I do not think that should happen and I will look into the position with a view to rectifying it.

Deputy Roddy thought that the substitution of Bord na Móna for county councils on county council bogs would increase turf production costs. Deputy Cosgrave thought that it should reduce turf production costs. I should not like to attempt to make any forecast of the result of their intervention on production costs because it is very difficult to do so. They are proposing to adopt a different method of production. They will in future, if they can, introduce the semi-mechanical process to which I referred. The only doubt in that regard relates to the availability of the necessary machines. Their system of organisation and supervision is likely to be so different from that of the county councils that no basis for comparison exists. In my view, it should be possible for Bord na Móna to organise production in such a manner that, even though there would be some greater payments in respect of wage rates for supervisory salaries, their total production costs should be lower.

Turf distribution is too dear. As Deputy McGrath stated, many of our fuel merchants are not distributing turf to consumers efficiently. I have had officers of my Department meeting representatives of the fuel merchants to tell them my view on that issue quite recently. Naturally enough, most of the fuel merchants in this country regard turf as a temporary nuisance which they had to put up with until coal supplies reappeared. Deliberately, the Government decided to distribute turf in Dublin and eastern areas through the fuel merchants, because we were anxious to cause the least possible disturbance of existing employment and trading organisations.

We could have set up some ad hoc organisation for turf distribution which could have done it much more cheaply and much more efficiently than the merchants have done it. But the time has now come when the merchants have to face up to the fact that turf for domestic fuel is not merely a temporary inconvenience, but a long-term problem for them. They are not handling the turf in a manner which, I am sure, the force of competition would compel them to adopt if they were selling turf in a normal competitive commercial atmosphere. I have put it up to them that if they want to remain in the business of distributing turf they have not merely to establish the organisation, but also acquire the equipment necessary for its efficient and economical handling.

We do not have to retain the system under which every fuel merchant is kept in the turf business. We can now confine the business of distributing turf to merchants who are prepared to open suitable yards in the right places, install the proper loading equipment for the handling of turf, and acquire the vehicles necessary for its efficient distribution. One of the advantages which I see in the introduction of a new form of turf rationing, which I announced will come into force in the autumn, is that it will create the possibility of restoring the element of competition between merchants, so that the merchant who gives the best service will get the most trade and, if we can succeed in doing that, we will get a very considerable improvement in the efficiency of the methods now in use for the handling of the turf and in the attitude of turf merchants to their customers.

Similarly, a problem arises, as Deputy Roddy mentioned, in the transport of turf from the West to Dublin. Córas Iompair Éireann have got a very substantial problem arising out of the insufficiency of their wagons, and there is also the problem of the unsuitability for turf transport of many of the wagons they are compelled to use. I have no doubt, if and when materials are available and it is possible to adapt its service to the needs of the situation, Córas Iompair Éireann will be able to reduce the cost of turf transport, but if Deputy Roddy assumes that the taxpayers were subsidising it for somebody's profit he can be assured by me that nobody is making excessive profits out of turf distribution.

Most of the losses involved in turf transport and distribution are associated with the dump system. The dump system originated during the war when one of our main fears was not that turf would not be available, but that transport would stop in the winter period and turf, although available, could not be delivered to the areas where required. In order to avoid the possibility of that situation arising, we built up these turf reserves in Dublin and other eastern towns. That involved not merely a double handling of the turf, ricking it in the dumps, but also a very considerable loss through wastage in the dumps, and a very large part of the cost of turf delivered in Dublin is represented by the unnecessary cost involved in the dumping of the turf here, unnecessary in the sense that, in happier circumstances, it could be avoided altogether, and all the wastage resulting from it. I should hope that it might be possible, if we can see our way through the transport problems of next winter, to minimise the process of dumping turf in advance in the eastern areas, keeping it in the localities where it is produced to be transported as required. That will not merely save cost, but it will also improve the quality of the turf. It is impossible to state definitely what can be done in that regard, because the transport situation is still too uncertain.

Deputy Norton urges that we should lay the ghost of the Coal Commission Report. I wish we could. I do not know what we can do to disabuse the public mind of the idea that we have vast reserves of coal which were hidden from us by the machinations of our British rulers and which we could now discover if only we went after them. There are coal resources in this country, and a great deal of money has been spent on the exploration of these coal resources. I do not know if Deputy O'Leary was ever in Arigna, but I can assure him that the rather famous firm of French consultants whom we employed in connection with the exploration work there did not bore holes down the tops of mountains where everybody knew there was no coal. They gave us a fairly elaborate report, following upon a great deal of exploration work which cost a large amount of money, and I think we can say, as a result of their work, that we know a lot about the coal resources of the Arigna area. I do not know if Deputy O'Leary is aware of the fact that there are 20 collieries of various sizes working in that area. A number of new collieries were opened during the war and the total output from that area was considerably increased. I think we may get rid of the idea that there are vast reserves of coal capable of keeping this country going for hundreds of years.

In the Leinster coal-field, which is, from one point of view, the more important, we had a considerable amount of exploration work during the war. The exploration work was done in the area which appeared to be most likely to yield results and at one stage a private company became interested, acquired a lease of the property, recouped the State for the cost of the exploration work, and began the process of coal winning. As some Deputies from the area are aware, a very highly efficient firm of coal miners in Great Britain have applied for and been granted a prospecting lease over a large part of the coalfield in which exploration work was not previously done.

Mr. Hughes

Where is that?

Mr. Lemass

In the southern part of the coalfield. This firm is one which has had very considerable experience in mechanized coal mining and they believe they might, by their highly developed methods, be able to work coal measures which it would be unprofitable to work by older methods. They have not yet begun exploration work. I believe they are proposing to start next week. In other parts of the Leinster coal-field there are successful workings in progress, but again the total resources of the area are not likely to be so great that we can regard them as the answer to our fuel problem.

The Munster coal-field, to which Deputies have referred, is, I think, unlikely to be of commercial value at any time. At some stage in our geological history there was an earthquake in that vicinity which broke up the coal seams into small fragments; it is always in small quantities, and this is regarded as a handicap to successful development.

Mr. Keyes

Will the Minister deal with the point raised about an additional bread ration for the turf workers?

Mr. Lemass

I intend to deal with that later. Deputy Beirne raised a point in connection with the refusal of a State mining lease to an applicant from County Roscommon on the ground that he had not the technical or financial resources to work minerals in that area. The Deputy said: "Why refuse him; if he loses money it is his own loss." That is not the position. These mining rights are public property and I, as Minister, am temporarily their custodian. If I lease these rights to an individual he has, for the duration of the lease, exclusive possession of them, and if he has not the technical competence or the financial resources to develop whatever minerals may be there, he is preventing somebody else who has the technical competence and the financial resources from doing so.

Therefore, I made it a necessary condition for the granting of a State mining lease that the person concerned must have, to my satisfaction, the technical competence to work the minerals properly and the financial resources to develop them commercially. I could not, therefore, regard it merely as a matter affecting the individual. It is my responsibility as the custodian of that public property to lease it only in circumstances which appeared to be in the public interest.

I do not want to deal at any length with the question of the diversion of a coal cargo from Cork. Many misstatements were made in relation to it. The position was that two cargoes became available in the United States of America in January. That was before the British coal deliveries stopped and we came up against the immediate coal crisis. Eighteen firms applied to me for financial facilities to buy these two cargoes, and rather than discriminate between the 18 firms, I got the coal trade together and asked them to nominate two firms to buy the cargoes and bring them in. The coal trade nominated two firms—one in Dublin and the other in Cork—Messrs. Sheehan and Sullivan. The firm of Sheehan and Sullivan appear to have done something which I regard as unsatisfactory because they placed this order for coal through a British firm. The consignee of the coal, as stated in the licence issued by the American authorities is a British firm. That is a method of operation that I could not approve of.

Mr. Anthony

What was wrong with the British firm?

Mr. Lemass

I think we ought to be able to do direct trading without British intermediaries.

Mr. McGrath

They are so used to getting permission from Britain.

Mr. Anthony

Have you the ships?

Mr. Lemass

Certainly, there was no question of the ships.

Mr. Anthony

It was stated that shipping was not available.

Mr. Lemass

The shipping is there. There is no difficulty in procuring ships. I do not want to stress that point but I should like to express my view, that when Irish firms are bringing in supplies of this character they should be able to negotiate with United States exporting firms direct, without needing British firms to act as intermediaries. Long before the cargo was purchased the fuel crisis developed here and British fuel imports stopped. I decided in these circumstances that the cargo should come to Dublin because the bulk of it was required in Dublin. I would have thought that to bring it in to Cork and then to put the bulk of the cargo on rail to Dublin would have been an unsatisfactory arrangement. To split the cargo into two, would have involved an extra charge of 3/- per ton. In any event, the coal was coming on a Greek ship and the crew went on strike. The strike is settled now but before that cargo will arrive other cargoes will have arrived and one of these cargoes will be delivered at Cork. I can promise Deputy McGrath that.

Mr. McGrath

We need not thank Sheehan and Sullivan.

Mr. Lemass

I am fully conscious of the needs of the Irish foundries for coal and I resent Deputy Corish's description of my attitude towards that question as casual. I have been endeavouring by every possible device open to me to secure the delivery of foundry coke. The total quantity we require is only 100 tons per week and it should not be an undue inconvenience to the British authorities to let us have that quantity.

They have not been able to make that quantity available to us and we have been trying to secure supplies from Belgium and the United States. I am not without hope that we shall be able to get supplies but the problem up to the present has been an intractable one. It is urgently necessary for us that we should get supplies of foundry coke from some source because of the important nature of industrial work that depends on its delivery.

So far as delays in the delivery of kerosene supplies are concerned, I am not going to be put in the position of having to defend the oil companies. I made my attitude clear to the Dáil before. I think the companies should have foreseen the distribution problem which arose for them and taken steps to cope with it. They did not do so. They ordered a number of additional tank wagons and tank trucks. Undoubtedly they were unfortunate in having their delivery delayed by the very exceptional weather conditions of last January and February. They now tell me that all these additional trucks and wagons have been delivered except two, and that their distribution services will be considerably improved. I think, however, that they have still a number of problems to solve in relation to the distribution of petroleum products here and I hope before next winter makes our position acute again, they will have succeeded in solving them.

Additional bread rations are supplied to turf workers who are employed in turf production by the county councils, Bord na Móna or by industrialists. Up to the present we have not been able to make it available to workers employed by contractors——

Mr. Keyes

They have not been granted to workers on county council schemes. I have had letters to that effect from Limerick.

Mr. Lemass

When I was urged to grant supplementary rations of bread to workers I believed that the matter was going to be a difficult one. Deputies need not tell me that there have been mistakes and anomalies and that some workers get the additional allowance while other workers do not. It is a very difficult scheme to operate unless one has available the services of a large staff of officials to inspect local conditions and deal with the issue of supplementary rations on the spot. I have not got these officials and we have got to try to deal with this matter largely by correspondence and by the double checks we can institute by corresponding with employers. In so far as policy is concerned, the policy is to give the supplementary bread ration to workers employed in turf production but the administrative arrangements have to be worked out. I have used the term "employed" deliberately. I have devised no system which I could regard as satisfactory by which people who are self-employed on turf production could get this ration. Most of those people are farmers who work in turf production on days that are suitable for it or on days on which they are not engaged on farm work and it would be impossible to have any system of supplementary bread rations related to the actual number of days on which they worked on turf production. There would be no effective means by which their claims for a ration could be checked. Therefore, the supplementary ration is confined to workers who were employed for wages because in relation to them, at least it is possible to check their claims through their employers.

Mr. Corish

Could it not be applied to all turf workers or to all engaged in felling trees who would be exclusively engaged at that work?

Mr. Lemass

It applies to those engaged in turf work and in felling trees.

Mr. Corish

Exclusively engaged and self-employed?

Mr. Lemass

No, not self-employed. I could not devise a system for self-employed producers which could be made water-tight. I want the House to understand that we are now issuing all the flour weekly we can afford to issue and I could not take the chance of creating such a hole in the tank that the flow-out would be substantially greater and there would be risk of a considerable outflow involved in the issuing of supplementary rations to self-employed persons of that kind. If we get substantial allocations of wheat for subsequent periods and a good harvest we may be able to improve the ration. We may even get to the position where we may be able to abolish rationing entirely, but I can find no indication of that position as yet. Deputies will have seen from this evening's papers that the Wheat Conference in London has been a failure. What that signifies I cannot say, but it does mean a further period of uncertainty before we know precisely what our imports will amount to for the next year.

As I am on that subject I want to refer to the statement made by Deputy Dillon when he said that the fact that we were prepared to commit ourselves to purchases of 400,000 tons of wheat represented the end of the wheat-growing policy. It represents nothing of the kind. If Deputy Dillon had been doing his duty as a member of this House he would have read the White Paper on agricultural policy.

In that White Paper we intimated that it was long-term policy to maintain wheat prices at such a level as would ensure an annual production of wheat from 250,000 to 300,000 acres. We consider that is a proper peacetime policy for this country. That acreage will ensure that not merely that the implements and experience necessary for wheat-growing will remain in all areas but also in time of emergency will ensure that there will be available sufficient seed to plant a larger area in the ensuing year. The maintenance of that policy announced by the Government will involve the annual importation of approximately 400,000 tons of wheat. We hope, of course, to get a very much larger acreage this year and next year, but even with a much larger acreage we still require that quantity of wheat, because we have very depleted stocks and hope at some stage to get into the position in which we can improve the quality of the bread by decreasing the extraction of flour from wheat.

There are one or two other matters I want to refer to. I am speaking at some length, but if I do not refer to these matters some Deputies will tell me that I was dodging them. One of these relates to the tourist trade. It is quite true, as Deputy Cogan stated, that the Tourist Board has not carried out the programme outlined some time ago in the White Paper in relation to holiday resort developments. It is not true that nothing has been done in the development of holiday resorts, but the full programme has not been impeded mainly, as I explained in introducing the Estimate, by the difficulties experienced by county councils in providing the water and sanitary services required in the areas to be developed.

The Act under which the Tourist Board operates places upon the board the obligation of certifying that every scheme upon which it embarks and for which it obtains money from the Exchequer will be profit-earning. It is not subsidising public works; it is not carrying out holiday resort development schemes merely to improve public amenities. It must prepare schemes which will eventually yield a profit. These schemes consist usually of taking a holiday resort, acquiring the land in the immediate vicinity of the amenities to be created and increasing the value of that land as a result of the creation of the amenities, and then leasing or selling the land to persons who might use it for development purposes. Clearly, no scheme of that kind can be effectively completed unless the public authority can provide the necessary services on the land to be developed, and the problem in completing some of these schemes is due to the difficulties of the county councils in cooperating to that extent.

Many Deputies expressed the view that, when normal conditions return in Europe, we would not get any tourists here at all. I disagree with that view and I have never accepted it. As proof of the fact that it is completely contrary to my opinion I would refer these Deputies to the date upon which we introduced and secured the enactment of the Tourist Development Act. It was in 1939, when conditions in Europe were far more normal, if that is the term I may use, than they are likely to be for many years to come. I consider that it is possible for us to get a significant part of Europe's tourist business. It is true that the total value of that business is colossal. Deputy Cafferky referred to the fact that the Governments of Belgium, France, Switzerland and Italy are taking exceptional measures to develop their tourist trade. In France, they have a separate Minister and Department of State charged solely with responsibility for tourist development, and I noticed last week an announcement by the French financial authorities that they hoped that the tourist revenue this year would pay for the whole of their imports of wheat and petroleum products.

We cannot hope to get a development of tourist business on anything approaching the scale which it has reached in France and Switzerland, but we can get a proportion of the total trade available which will be of very considerable significance for us. We may not have the glamour of Paris, the climate of Italy or the mountain ranges of Switzerland, but we have one substantial advantage in addition to the climate and scenery we have, that is, the existence throughout the world of many millions of people of Irish origin to whom a visit to this country will represent the culmination of a life's ambition, and who will certainly come here if we provide them with the facilities for an enjoyable holiday and who, if they enjoy their holidays, will be effective propagandists for holidays in Ireland amongst people of their home countries. That particular asset is one upon which I believe we can build up a most profitable trade, and I think we should do so. I do not think we should attempt it this year. Deputies are under the impression, I know, that we are actively publicising the idea of holidays in Ireland this year in the same way as the British, Belgian and French Governments are. We are not doing so, and we are not doing so because we believe it is wiser to wait until we have improved the accommodation available for visitors, until we are ready to receive them and until we are confident that, when they come here, they will be satisfied with the amenities available to them. With present transport restrictions, food restrictions and fuel restrictions, as well as the difficulty with regard to completing the holiday resort development schemes, we think it would be bad business to go out on a widespread international publicity campaign to attract visitors. We are not doing so. A number will come, and the great majority of those who will come from abroad will be our own people coming home to visit their relatives and friends, but the propaganda work which Deputies think is proceeding has been postponed and will be postponed until we are satisfied that conditions here fully justify it.

Mr. Cafferky

Will the Minister deal with the point I raised in relation to dollars?

Mr. Lemass

I do not want to go into an elaborate explanation of the financial arrangements which existed during the war years. In effect, however, there was established a dollar pool into which the dollars of the sterling area went and from which we drew whatever dollars we required to finance our trade in the dollar area. I do not want Deputies to think that that arrangement represented a concession to this country. We, by imposing restrictions upon the transfer of currency from this country, made the protection of sterling effective, and that was a matter of considerable importance to the British Government. It was also a matter of importance to us who have substantial sterling assets. It was of no importance up to now, therefore, through what actual channel dollars reached that pool. The position will be changed it the arrangement contemplated in the Washington Loan Agreement made by the British Government comes into operation next July and all sterling from current transactions becomes freely convertible from then on, the dollar pool being abolished. In that new situation, we shall have a very lively interest in acquiring the maximum supply of dollars under our own control. It is not a matter of importance now, because, during the whole of the war period, we had no difficulty in financing our essential imports from the dollar area because of any inability to obtain dollars.

Deputy Roddy asked: Why carry out a survey of our mineral resources; have they not all been surveyed several times? That is not what is contemplated. It is true that there is a geological survey continuously at work preparing reports upon the geology of the country. They prepare these reports on the basis of surface indications and records of old workings, and supplement the conclusions they draw from these surface indications and old records by geophysical surveys and other methods. There can, however, be no proper examination of the mineral resources of areas where minerals are known to exist without underground working.

The term I used was mineral exploration rather than mineral survey, and what is contemplated is that Mianraí, Teoranta, will take the known mineralised areas and explore the mineral resources of these areas underground, blocking out whatever ore bodies are found to exist in a manner which will facilitate their subsequent commercial development. There is a great deal of knowledge concerning the mineral resources of the country, but a great deal of exploration work is necessary before their full commercial possibilities can be determined.

Deputy O'Sullivan referred to limitations on building and urged that a serious situation was arising by reason of the insufficient output of working-class houses. I do not know what are the special factors restricting the construction of working-class houses in Dublin. I can say that, in a general way, the available resources of timber and other building materials will be applied for the construction of working-class houses on a priority basis. We did that during the past year. We shall have more timber for building this year than we had last year, and I stated in my introductory speech that timber will not, in fact, be the limiting factor determining building output. We have a temporary difficulty concerning cement which will be eased by the autumn but, generally speaking, there is no reason why we should not be able to maintain activity in the building industry from the middle of the year onward at, at least, the prewar level, provided that the regulations restricting the use of timber in circumstances where other materials can be substituted are rigorously enforced.

Deputy Morrissey asked if it were true that we had 70,000 unemployed. It would take a long time to answer that question. It is perfectly true to say that the number of persons on the unemployment register is no indication of the number available for manual work. Actual surveys were carried out at a number of branch employment offices and local employment exchanges by an inter-departmental committee, and these investigations would appear to show that the number of workers registered suitable for manual work of the type involved in relief schemes, turf production or road construction would be a minority of the total — in some cases, a comparatively small minority of the total. That does not mean that the other persons registered may not be genuinely seeking work. It means that, because of age or physical or mental debility, they are not suitable for manual work. There are, of course, a number of people who will succeed in getting unemployment assistance who are just dodging work, but they would represent a comparatively small minority of the total number on the register. There will be need at some stage to split up our unemployment statistics into categories so that we can get a clear picture of our unemployment situation. I think that it is unfair to the country, as well as bad business from the point of view of those who have responsibility for framing policy, to have men of 68 or 69 years of age registered at the employment exchanges and grouped into the global figure of unemployed, because the problem of dealing with them cannot be solved by promoting relief works, establishing industries, initiating bog development schemes or similar works.

Mr. Keyes

They have no means of existence except work.

Mr. Lemass

That is true. I grant that the problem of providing for people who are really not capable of undertaking the type of work that could be made available to them through an employment exchange— people who may be genuinely anxious to work — is one that will call for consideration in the future.

Mr. Keyes

Mechanics are being put to work at unskilled work on the roads.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is speaking of a temporary situation due to the coal scarcity. Up to February last, the problem of this country was scarcity of skilled workers, not unskilled workers. That situation will disappear as soon as the fuel situation improves. A number of other matters were referred to but they were of a character which I could not deal with without making some search in the Department's records. I refer to individual cases mentioned by Deputies and cases arising in individual counties. I could not from memory state the facts relating to those cases. I have had a record taken of these matters and will have them examined. If it appears to me that action is called for, I shall communicate to the Deputies concerned the action it is proposed to take.

Mr. O'Leary

Have we still the coal-cattle pact between this country and England?

Mr. Lemass

I wish there was such an agreement but there is not. The coal-cattle pact ended with the trade agreement of 1938. The Deputy need have no fear that there is any force at work preventing the development of our coal resources, wherever they may be.

Mr. O'Leary

Did you sign an agreement to that effect?

Mr. Lemass

Restricting coal development?

Mr. O'Leary

The coal-cattle pact.

Mr. Lemass

The coal-cattle pact was a pact made to swop cattle for coal from Great Britain during the economic war. It ceased to have any significance when we made the trade agreement in 1938 with Great Britain which brought the economic war to an end.

Mr. Blowick

Is it the intention to give private producers of turf the same price as turf costs the county councils or will they be given a price which will allow them to pay the standard wage paid by Bord na Móna?

Mr. Lemass

The price will be determined by a number of factors, including the amount of transportation involved and the quality of the turf. The board has been advertising, as the Deputy may have noticed in the newspapers, for offers of privately-produced turf and have intimated their willingness to enter into agreements with persons for the supply of turf. It may be assumed that the agreements will be of a character satisfactory to both parties to them.

Mr. Blowick

Where a private individual has his own family at work, what will determine the price?

Mr. Lemass

The board buys privately-produced turf only to the extent that they think it is wise to do so. They have always been careful to avoid depleting the local supply and leaving a scarcity behind them merely for the purpose of bringing supplies to Dublin. They regulate the price and the quantity they buy in relation to the needs of the national pool and their estimation of the quantity that should be left behind for local sale. It is impossible to give a simple answer to the Deputy's question. So many factors operate that no simple answer is possible. The price is determined by Fuel Importers Limited. They buy the turf for the national pool.

Mr. Blowick

I am referring to the small or middle-sized farmer who may find time to provide turf in response to the Minister's call to-night. The amount he will produce will depend, to a great extent, on whether he is getting a fair deal as between the county council price and the price that might be offered to him.

Mr. Davin

Is the Minister now convinced that sufficient capital will be found by private individuals to develop the mineral resources of the State to the fullest possible extent?

Mr. Lemass

So far as I am concerned, I have been embarrassed in recent years by people who wanted to rush into coal mining and invest private capital therein. I have no reason to think that private capital will not be available to develop the mineral resources of the State where these mineral resources are of a character which would justify commercial development. I do not know what precisely the Deputy has in mind, but I have no reason to think that, where commercial development is possible, private capital will not be forthcoming.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

Could the Minister answer the question of graded anthracite for heat storage cookers?

Mr. Lemass

I could not hold out any hope of graded anthracite for thermal storage cookers for some time to come. We are unable to make a sufficient ration of ungraded anthracite available at present.

Mr. H.M. Dockrell

Then will the Minister stop supplying slates and clay as anthracite?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy should change his fuel merchant.

Mr. Spring

Will the Minister consider the introduction of legislation to enable the Tralee Harbour Board to write off the county council mortgage?

Mr. Lemass

I will look into that matter. I am not quite sure what the problem is.

Amendment —"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— put and declared lost.

Amendment—"That the Estimate be reduced by £10 in respect of sub-head M"— not moved.

Vote put and agreed to.