Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 23 May 1947

Vol. 106 No. 6

Agricultural and Fishery Products (Regulation of Export) Bill, 1947— Financial Resolution. - Agricultural and Fishery Products (Regulation of Export) Bill, 1947— Second Stage.

Mr. Smith

I move that the Bill be read a Second Time. This is an enabling measure, which will empower the Minister for Agriculture to regulate by Order, in such manner as may from time to time appear desirable, the export of agricultural and fishery products. The Bill contains nothing new or exceptional, and merely incorporates in permanent legislation the powers at present exercised under emergency legislation.

The existing legislation dealing with exports of agricultural products is concerned primarily with the quality of the products without giving the Minister for Agriculture power to control the quantity of such exports. With the expiration of emergency legislation the need may still remain for restricting exports so as to conserve supplies needed for home consumption.

Opportunity is being taken to repeal the earlier Acts regulating exports which, owing to changed conditions, are no longer suitable.

Mr. Hughes

If the purpose of the Bill were purely to control the quality of the export it would be quite all right but, in the case of restricted exports, I do not think any fee should be paid by an individual for a licence. The prevention to export is in the interest of the consumer up. When we restrict the export we restrict the category as far as the consumer is concerned. Why should the consumer or the agent of the consumer be asked to pay a fee when he is exporting a particular commodity? If there is a restriction to ensure quantity for export purposes it would be a different matter but when it is done purely in the interests of the consuming public I submit it is unfair to ask for a fee. There is one other rather important matter in connection with this whole question of exporting and importing under licence, Sir. I do not want to cast a reflection on anybody's character, but it is open to suggestion that it makes for certain abuses. I put to the Minister that a record ought to be kept in his Department of the licences and the register ought to be open to the public for inspection on payment of a fee; it ought to be open to members of this House and the Seanad on the payment of no fee. The public could thus satisfy themselves that there is in operation an Act to restrict any exports and that whatever limitation or whatever amount is exported under licence no favouritism is shown to any individual who acquires a licence for that purpose. I submit that the public is entitled to know who is selected for a particular purpose and who is licensed to export a particular commodity.

Where restriction is imposed in the interests of the consuming public, surely the producer, the agent of the producer or an exporter handling a commodity for a number of producers should not be called upon to pay a fee. It is not the amount of the fee that I object to. It is the principle of the thing. Secondly, where restriction is imposed and where certain individuals are allowed to export under licence the public generally should be able to satisfy themselves that there is no differentiation and that no favouritism is shown—that a man is selected for it because he is the right person in the circumstances.

Mr. Smith

I do not know much about this licensing system myself but I scarcely think that any of the abuses to which the Deputy referred could arise. Business people are not people who would, even if a Minister were to attempt to unfavourably or unjustly select for the purpose of giving a licence some particular person as against some other person, allow him to get away with it.

Mr. Hughes

I can give the Minister an example, if he likes.

Mr. Smith

This House has, on a number of occasions, been used, as it should be, for the purpose of having allegations of that kind threshed out. It is always possible for a Deputy to avail of the facilities afforded here for that purpose and ensure that no complaint of this kind will fail to be fully ventilated. I do not think that such a type of case could arise. This provision is not always made for the purpose of serving the interests of the consumer here. There are other interests which have to be served. It would not be right to say that it is exclusively in the interests of the consuming public here.

Mr. Hughes

There will have to be some restriction.

Mr. Smith

It may be necessary, from the point of view of protecting the consumers' interest, to take advantage of the powers here, but the powers are intended for other purposes as well.

Mr. Hughes

On the question of the register, I deliberately refrained from giving the example I had in mind because of the Minister's attitude. The House knows well that when cattle were being exported under licence, many people got licences to export who were never in the trade. If we are to export under licence in this case, a register should be kept so that everybody would know who had obtained licences. The Minister should be able to satisfy the public that there is no favouritism in the granting of licences.

Mr. Smith

The case cited by the Deputy is a rather weak one. He will admit that that was a very difficult matter to handle—

Mr. Hughes

The same excuse might be given again.

Mr. Smith

When the distribution of licences was handed over to the local authorities—the Deputy himself is a member of one—the greatest dissatisfaction resulted. He is not on firm ground when he cites that particular instance.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

Mr. Smith

I should have asked for all stages if it were not that I want to extend the definition section. I shall take the other stages next week.

Mr. McMenamin

In the definition section the expression "agricultural product" means "any fish or any part of a fish". That would seem to cover small quantities of fish which a person might send to a friend. He should be able to do that without applying for a licence. The Minister might look into that before the next stage.

Mr. Smith

I cannot see how that would arise but 1 shall have a look at the section.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter does not arise at the present time, at all events.

Committee Stage fixed for Friday, 30th May, 1947.