Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 1947

Vol. 108 No. 7

Motion for Select Committee. - Proposed Sale of Distillery.

General Mulcahy

I move:—

That a select committee consisting of 11 Deputies to be appointed by the Committee of Selection and with power to send for persons, papers and documents be established publicly to investigate and to report to the Dáil on all the facts and circumstances connected with and surrounding any proposal made or attempted to be made at any time since the 1st January, 1946, either to buy or to sell Locke's Distillery, Kilbeggan, or any part of the property or business thereof.

During my absence in the country on political work, a discussion took place on Wednesday last, on the motion for the Adjournment of the Dáil following Questions that day, which raised, to my mind, a matter of serious public importance. I consider, in putting down this motion, I am discharging a public duty which I feel the Government ought to have regarded as their duty and in moving this motion I simply do so as a matter of formal public duty. I do not wish to make accusations against any person or to repeat any accusations made, nor do I want to defend anybody either against accusations made or to defend anybody who made accusations that they ought not to make. For that reason I asked the Government to-day whether they were going to accept this motion. They said they could not say whether they would or not until they had heard the case made. The reason I put down this motion is that I feel that a case has been made for it.

Mr. O'Connor

By whom?

General Mulcahy

By the very fact that it was possible for the Dáil on Wednesday night last to have had the discussion which took place.

Mr. O'Connor

By whom was the case made?

General Mulcahy

I would ask the Deputy to listen to me and, if he has other tactics to pursue, let us know whether he is pursuing them. I stated that I am performing a formal public duty which I regard as my responsibility, when the Government have not shown that they realise that they have a responsibility in the matter. I am making the plea simply now that if the Government recognise that, as I believe they might, that they would say so after having heard me. If they are of opinion that it is desirable that a public inquiry should take place and that a select committee should be set up to inquire into the matter in the way I suggest the committee should be set up forthwith and further discussion of the matters, that I understand have been raised here, might be left over until the select committee have inquired, ascertained the facts and reported to the Dáil on these facts.

In my approach to this particular matter, the Ceann Comhairle suggested that the motion might be restricted in some way or another, that it was too wide. I feel that the very nature of the statements made on the one hand, and the facts given by the Minister for Justice on the other, are of such a kind that the inquiry into this particular matter should be as open as members of the select committee set up by the Dáil would consider it should be. I do not think it would be possible or desirable to restrict in any way the scope of the inquiry in view, as I say, of the type of statements made here and the admissions made in regard to certain of these matters by the Minister for Justice.

Now while there may be a case to be made here such as the Ceann Comhairle mentioned, that this would open up an inquiry into every commercial transaction carried out by Locke's during that particular period, I think that is a rather exaggerated statement. This inquiry arises out of definite incidents and only so far as the incidents relate to the matter of public importance connected with them would any Select Committee of the Dáil inquire. Therefore I press for the acceptance of the motion in the form in which it is there.

On Wednesday last, in his reply to the debate on the Adjournment, the Minister for Justice accepted certain facts—that a Swiss national of the name Eindiguer arrived in Ireland some time at the beginning of September, that he was accompanied by others, or at any rate by one person, who was posing under the name of Horace Henry Smith, but that probably his real name was Alexander Maximoe; that by the end of September the Department of Justice was aware that Eindiguer had entered into a contract to purchase Locke's distillery, that at the same time his Department had discovered that both Eindiguer and Maximoe were associating with an alien who was under orders to leave the country; that, following the publication of the news that members of this group had been received by the President, he had received a telephone message from a friend which resulted in the Minister for Justice signing a deportation order for the man who posed under the name of Smith. Then subsequently we had newspaper information that while he was in process of deportation this man threw himself overboard.

These very colourful circumstances on the surface would warrant some kind of investigation but when, in circumstances such as those admitted by the Minister for Justice, a Deputy in this House makes the allegation that this Swiss gentleman was able to approach the Department of Industry and Commerce and get from the Department——

Mr. Lemass

Who said that?

General Mulcahy

This is implied in the report.

Mr. Lemass

Who said it?

General Mulcahy

I am giving the clear implications of what is here.

Mr. MacEntee

Make a case for the motion if you can.

General MacEoin

Why do you not make a case?

Mr. Lemass

Is the Deputy suggesting that somebody said that this Swiss gentleman approached the Minister for Industry and Commerce for any purpose?

General Mulcahy

I shall read the statement made here—or rather I will not. I shall let this report stand by itself.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Deputy refer to the column in the report in which that allegation was made?

General Mulcahy

I shall refer to column 836, where the Minister for Justice is reported as having stated:—

"I never heard that there was a charge made against the Minister for Industry and Commerce until I heard Deputy Flanagan say so to-night. It is the first I heard of it or of a charge against Senator Quirke."

Now the Minister for Justice accepts that, in whatever was said here on Wednesday night, there was an allegation in relation to the Minister or his Department on the one hand and in relation to a member of the Oireachtas on the other.

Mr. Lemass

Concerning an approach by a Swiss gentleman to the Department of Industry and Commerce?

General Mulcahy

Concerning the whole case in which Deputy Flanagan indicated, as reported in column 831, that as compared with the treatment of a group of Irish citizens here, the Government having refused to receive a deputation to discuss the matter, "another group of foreigners, the international chancers I have referred to, have come over here and have found a spot in the hearts of Fianna Fáil henchmen". It may be that the Department of Industry and Commerce was not specifically mentioned, but at any rate the general trend of the discussion and the statements made by Deputy Flanagan was such that the Minister for Justice picked it up that a charge was being made against the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. Morrissey

It was specifically stated in the House that they were able to get concessions from the Department of Industry and Commerce within 24 hours.

Mr. Lemass

Who said so?

Mr. Morrissey

It was stated specifically in the House.

Mr. Lemass

By whom?

General Mulcahy

I consider that it is my duty to ask the Government to take cognisance of the debate, even if they take cognisance only of the reactions of that debate on the Minister for Justice. It seems to me, from reading the whole of the debate, that there are allegations that the Department for Industry and Commerce gave concessions to this particular group that they were not prepared to give to others; there are allegations that a member of the Oireachtas used his influence as such to get concessions from the Government or some Government Department; there are allegations that a member of the Bar outside made use of his position to approach the President— to get some kind of influence or patronage through the Presidential office to get concessions that would not be available to other people.

I ask the Government to realise the effect these allegations have on the public mind, on the prestige of this House and on the confidence of the people in the impartial administration of the Government. If there are allegations made here that are unwarranted, if allegations are made inside the privileges of the House, then the House ought to be anxious to safeguard these privileges and ought to see that these privileges are not abused.

One of the effects of setting up a tribunal would be to ascertain the facts and, as a necessary corollary to ascertaining the facts, to disclose whether an abuse was being made by any Deputy of the privileges of the House.

Mr. MacEntee

What difference would that make to Deputy Flanagan?

General Mulcahy

If Deputy Flanagan makes charges against Ministers or other persons inside the privileges of the House, it is the duty of the House to find out whether these charges are warranted or not.

Mr. MacEntee

And then?

General Mulcahy

And then, if they are not warranted, in defence of our rights and prerogatives here, where we consider we have, under the Constitutions, rights guaranteed to us to speak here and be responsible to nobody unless to the House, then we must guard those rights and privileges.

The Taoiseach

Hear, hear! I hope someone will bring in a motion to try to get that done.

General Mulcahy

I am giving the Taoiseach an opportunity, in the face of an actual happening, to set up a committee which will, if necessary, move somewhat along that road. If we are to preserve our privileges here we will not do it by sitting down and, in an academic way, discussing hypothetical instances of how our privileges may be abused. The type of inquiry I ask for is the type that is warranted by the circumstances and, if the Taoiseach has anything in his mind with regard to proceeding towards the proposals he had in his general resolution, he can only proceed in a satisfactory way by dealing with ad hoc matters as they arise here.

I do not want to make any allegations here or support any allegations. I am not saying that what Deputy Flanagan stated here is not correct; I am merely saying that these things were stated here and, once they were stated, apart from the reaction of the Minister for Justice to them, it should have been the Government's duty at once to proceed and have them investigated in the most formal way.

Two of the persons whose conduct has been reflected upon here, Senator Quirke and Mr. Sweeney, have both sent communications to the Press, Senator Quirke saying: "I shall lend any properly constituted judicial tribunal all the assistance in my power," and Mr. F. W. Gilligan, solicitor, writing on behalf of Mr. Seamus Sweeney, saying he would welcome the fullest possible inquiry into the transaction and his connection with it. These are people who have been aspersed in one way or another and they welcome an inquiry.

Mr. Lemass

What other redress have they?

General Mulcahy

Will the Government give them the redress they seek?

Mr. MacEntee

Particularly when the Leader of the Opposition adopts the suggestion as if there was some substance in it.

Mr. Morrissey

If the Minister cannot conduct himself outside the House, he should endeavour to do so inside the House, for once in his life.

General Mulcahy

I am sorry that the front or the back benchers in the Government Party will not face this matter in a serious and simple way. The debates in the Dáil on Wednesday, 22nd October, 1947, contain certain allegations and certain statements were made by the Minister for Justice as a comment on these allegations. What is printed in the Official Report for that day warrants the setting-up of a select committee of Deputies publicly to investigate and report to the Dáil on the circumstances connected with any attempt to sell or buy Locke's Distillery during the period mentioned in the report. I mention a date there, not because I want all the transactions going back to that date investigated, but merely because I think it necessary to inquire into any attempt by Locke's to sell their property or business in the recent past and it is necessary to inquire into all the facts in relation to any attempt made to buy the property or the business associated with Locke's Distillery.

The allegation here is that in the dealings with Government Departments there was certain discrimination as between various bodies trying to buy the place. There was particularly favourable discrimination in relation to the group that was referred to here by the Minister for Justice in his reply on the 22nd October. It is stated that a member of the Oireachtas endeavoured to misuse his privileges in his contact with the Department to get concessions for his friends that other people might not get and that a member of the Bar attempted to make use of his connection with the President and make use of the Presidential office to have his interests assisted in some way or another.

I think these are matters that, when the dignity and the prestige of the Oireachtas have to be maintained, Deputies on every side of the House should realise should be inquired into systematically and orderly, straight away. I, therefore, move the motion that stands here and I seriously ask the Government to accept it that, in doing so, I am simply carrying out in a formal way a duty that I feel is my public responsibility. They should be as wide awake to the fact that an inquiry of this kind is wanted and wanted immediately.

General MacEoin

I formally second the motion and reserve the right to speak later.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

A motion of this kind, moved by the Leader of the principal Opposition Party, has to be taken seriously. We do not have to take it seriously, however, that Deputy Mulcahy's pose on the altar of rectitude, is inspired by the highest motives. He put down this motion in order to place the support of his party behind the allegations made last week by Deputy Flanagan. The purpose of the motion is political blackmail. Deputy Mulcahy and every one of his colleagues know that, once a motion of this kind is submitted, the Government has either to accept it or take the risk that its refusal will be interpreted by foolish people as implying that it has something to conceal, that there is some substance in the allegations.

Is it seriously suggested by Deputy Mulcahy that when any Deputy, with or without responsibility, makes an allegation concerning any member of the Government or any member of the Oireachtas, there must be an immediate public inquiry into it? I submit that that is a most preposterous suggestion. Surely, before we establish a public inquiry and bring a whole lot of private citizens into the glare of publicity that attends a public inquiry, we should be satisfied, every one of us, that the allegations were made by a responsible person and with substance? Are we satisfied that that is so in this case? Deputy Mulcahy washes his hands of responsibility for the allegations. He tells us he is not supporting the allegations or criticising the person who made them. I submit that that is not good enough. I submit that this Dáil should not, in any circumstances, pass a motion for the establishment of a public inquiry until it is sure that there is somebody with a serious charge to make, who is prepared to substantiate that charge before the inquiry.

In this particular case, allegations have been made against a member of the Oireachtas and a member of the Government, unnamed, concerning transactions associated with the sale of Locke's Distillery, Kilbeggan. They have been made by a Deputy who I think nobody will contend has been otherwise than notoriously reckless in matters of that kind.

Mr. Flanagan

You knew that when you came down to Leix-Offaly.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy did not make those charges in Leix-Offaly. He made them here, under cover of the privilege which he enjoys as a member of the House.

Mr. Flanagan

And I have evidence to substantiate them.

Mr. Lemass

I am delighted to hear it. The Deputy will have every opportunity to produce his evidence.

Mr. Flanagan

And I have witnesses to prove it.

Mr. Lemass

These charges were made under the privilege of the House. Deputy Mulcahy referred to the fact that two individuals, not members of this House, have welcomed this public inquiry. Of course they welcome it. Their honour has been impugned, their reputations besmirched and, because these charges were made under privilege of this House, they have no other redress except a public inquiry. If these charges were made elsewhere, they would have recourse to the ordinary process of the law to vindicate their characters. They were made here, and made here in circumstances which ensured that, if the Deputy who made them is shown in an inquiry to have made them recklessly, he is still immune from all consequences to himself. He is immune from all consequences, even if it is shown that these charges were made maliciously, or worse.

Deputy Mulcahy is very concerned about the dignity of the Dáil and the honour of our public life. That issue does arise here, but does not arise out of the charges made by Deputy Flanagan. It arises in relation to Deputy Flanagan's conduct. However, we have a motion here which requests the Dáil to agree to set up a committee of the Dáil to investigate and report on all the facts and all the circumstances connected with and surrounding any proposal made or attempted to be made at any time either to buy or to sell Locke's Distillery, Kilbeggan. I submit that this Dáil is entitled to consider a proposal by a Deputy to establish an inquiry only if there are serious grounds for believing that a member of the Oireachtas, a member of the Government, an officer of the public service or other public official has in any way misused his position, or if it can be shown that there is a major matter of public issue involved.

I submit that it is not within the competence of this Dáil to inquire into the private affairs of private citizens who themselves have committed no irregularity or broken no law. If, therefore, there is to be an inquiry arising out of these allegations, that inquiry must be confined, I submit, to allegations that public men of any kind have abused their position. I do not think we are entitled to inquire why the owners of Locke's Distillery have decided to sell it. I do not think we should establish a precedent of that kind, because such a precedent would be very undesirable.

Mr. Morrissey

We are not asking that.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is certainly asking that.

Mr. Morrissey

Why they decided.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is asking for an inquiry into all the facts and circumstances——

Mr. Morrissey

Not as to why they decided.

Mr. Lemass

——connected with and concerning any proposal made or attempted to be made at any time either to buy or to sell Locke's Distillery.

Mr. Morrissey

But not why they decided to sell or not to sell.

Mr. Lemass

I do not believe that Deputy Mulcahy is a Socialist, but I am quite certain that a motion of this kind, to inquire into private business transactions of private citizens who have broken no law, if it were persisted in and became a practice, would easily destroy all private business enterprise in this country. Nobody denies the right of the Dáil to inquire into the conduct of public officials; nobody denies the right of the Dáil to establish an inquiry into allegations against Ministers or against members of the Dáil; but I do say that a motion which contemplates that, over and above the conduct of public men, there is to be an inquiry into the private business affairs of private citizens should not be entertained.

Now whether the Government is going to agree to hold an inquiry or not will depend on this discussion. I do not think that anything has been said to-night or last week which would justify the decision to establish an inquiry. I do not think we should agree to establish an inquiry, until it is made clear by statements here that a member of the Dáil or someone known to a member of the Dáil is in a position to produce evidence of any kind to support allegations which have been made against public men. If there is going to be an inquiry—and I want Deputy Flanagan to listen to this—the inquiry will be by a judicial tribunal and all the witnesses will have to give evidence on oath.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Dillon

And I would suggest that there should be cross-examination.

Mr. Lemass

Yes, and imprisonment for any witness who perjures himself.

Mr. Dillon

Cross-examination is what I am interested in.

Dr. O'Higgins

Will the Minister meet the proposal?

Mr. Lemass

When it has been established that there is something to be inquired into.

Mr. Dillon

That would not be difficult.

Mr. Lemass

I hope that Deputy Dillon has some information that would be of value to the Dáil or of assistance to an inquiry.

Mr. Dillon

It is all in the hands of the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Lemass

I will set out the facts of the case as I know them. As far as the Department for Industry and Commerce is concerned the history of the case is as follows: The first reference on the Department's records to the possibility of the Kilbeggan Distillery changing hands was made at a conference which was attended by representatives of all the distilleries in the country and which was held on the 16th April, 1947. At that conference Mr. Joseph Cooney, Manager of J. Locke and Co., Ltd., stated that the distillery was likely to change hands in the near future. When the report of that conference reached me I decided that the firm of solicitors representing the owners of the distillery should be invited to the Department to discuss the position, and particularly for the purpose of conveying to them my concern at the possibility of the firm passing into the hands of persons who might have no interest in maintaining it or who might in any way pursue a policy which would be detrimental to the interests of the whole Irish whiskey trade. An invitation to the solicitors representing J. Locke, Ltd., to come to the Department was issued on May 18th, and on May 21st the firm's solicitor was interviewed by a deputy secretary of the Department. The solicitor confirmed the report that the business was for sale and stated that it had been advertised in British newspapers. He said that inquiries had been already received. The deputy secretary informed him that I was interested in developing exports, particularly to hard currency countries, that I considered that the distillery industry had good potentialities in that regard, and that I therefore considered it essential that nothing should happen which might prejudice the Irish whiskey trade. He said that I was opposed to the sale if it seemed likely that the distillery was being bought for a short-term policy of exploiting the present shortage of whiskey or for a long-term policy of putting on the market the products of the distillery as a blend with other whiskey. The solicitor mentioned that I had no power to interfere with the sale—as the Deputies are aware.

The Deputy secretary pointed out that while I had no power to prevent or to interfere with a sale to any person, I exercised a control over whiskey exports and the sale of whiskey in bond, and if the business were sold under circumstances which I thought detrimental to the national interests, then I might consider withholding facilities for export or for sale in bond. The solicitor undertook to inform any likely purchaser of these circumstances and to inform the Department of any developments in regard to the sale.

The next record on the Departmental file is that on May 30th representatives of certain British interests inquired at the Department and were informed of my attitude in the same terms as the company's solicitor. Other tentative inquiries were received from Irish interests.

On July 23rd Mr. Joseph Cooney, the manager of the firm, accompanied by Mr. P.L. MacEvoy were interviewed by the Assistant Secretary of the Department. Mr. Cooney intimated that he, Mr. MacEvoy and other friends were interested in the purchase of the distillery, but expressed the opinion that persons interested in the distillery in order to exploit the present shortage and others interested in restricting its development might bid more than a fair price and prevent him from acquiring it. He urged that there should be further amplification of the conditions on which I would approve of the sale, the conditions which were communicated to the firm's solicitor on the occasion of his interview, in order to eliminate other purchasers who might have undesirable motives. The secretary who interviewed Mr. Cooney and Mr. MacEvoy informed them of my general attitude as it was explained to the company's solicitor.

On September 9th Mr. Cooney again visited the Department accompanied by Senator Quirke of the firm of Stokes and Quirke. They stated that an Irish group in association with a Swiss group intended to purchase the distillery and that a company would be formed with a majority of Irish capital and of Irish directors. Mr. Thomas Morris, Clonmel, was stated to be interested.

Mr. Flanagan

Quirke had good fishing for a directorship.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is making allegations which, if an inquiry is held, he will have to prove. Every idle word spoken by him is being taken down and put on record and the records will be before the tribunal, if there is one, and the Deputy will have to justify what he says and I would advise him to keep his mouth shut.

Mr. Dillon

I imagine that is what the Minister wants.

Mr. Lemass

On the contrary. I am giving that advice but I do not expect that he will take it. I am going to ask him some questions later which I hope he will answer.

It was stated that the new company was interested in whiskey exports to Switzerland and an increase in the company's small quota for export was requested. The officer of the Department referred them on that point to an assistant secretary to whom they explained that the new company was prepared to extend operations and to produce for the Swiss market and that it would need an increase in the annual quota for the export of mature whiskey. That application, together with another application from another distillery, was referred to me at a conference that afternoon. As both applications involved exports to hard currency areas I decided to grant them.

Mr. Flanagan

Was it a written application?

Mr. Lemass

No, it was a verbal application.

Mr. Flanagan

Which of them made it?

Mr. Lemass

I could not say.

Mr. Flanagan

But was it Cooney or Quirke that spoke?

Mr. Lemass

I did not hear them speak. Both of them were there together.

The final record is that on September 30th the Minister for Justice informed the Department for Industry and Commerce that it was making inquiries in regard to Swiss nationals who were involved in the transaction, who were under suspicion because they were associated with another alien who was considered undesirable.

That is the Departmental record. The allegations made by Deputy Flanagan and supported indirectly by General Mulcahy will have to be considered in relation to that record.

Mr. Norton

Will the Minister say who were the Swiss nationals at that stage? They have not been mentioned yet.

Mr. Lemass

I do not know.

Mr. Norton

The Department of Justice were after Swiss nationals who were interested in the sale. Who were they?

Mr. Lemass

Eindiguer. The note on the file concerning the conversation refers only to Eindiguer. They were inquiring about him because of his association with Mr. Sachael. Taking Deputy Flanagan's allegations in the order in which they were made——

Mr. Dillon

Where does Sachael come in?

Mr. Lemass

Taking Deputy Flanagan's allegations in the order in which they were made here last Wednesday, they were, firstly:

"He (the Minister) is also aware of the fact that a group of Irish citizens made an attempt to take over and develop and to improve the conditions in this distillery and that the Government refused to receive a deputation to discuss the matter and refused to entertain the claims of Irish nationalists for this distillery."

Does Deputy Flanagan know that to be a fact?

Mr. Flanagan

Had the Minister received a letter from Mr. Cooney prior to 9th September, setting out the consequences that might arise if those undesirable aliens got control of the industry.

Mr. Lemass

I did, and it was as a result of that letter he was interviewed on the first occasion.

Mr. Flanagan

Will the Minister read Mr. Cooney's letter?

Mr. Lemass

I shall deal with Mr. Cooney in a minute. "... a group of Irish citizens made an attempt to take over and develop and to improve the conditions in this distillery, and that the Government refused to receive a deputation to discuss the matter and refused to entertain the claims of Irish nationalists...." Does the Deputy stand over that statement?

Mr. Flanagan

I shall make my speech in a few minutes.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Deputy name the person or the group whom the Government refused to receive or whose proposal to develop the distillery the Government refused to entertain?

Mr. Flanagan

Probably these people will come up at the inquiry.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is gaining nothing by his silence.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister told him a few minutes ago to keep his mouth shut.

Mr. Lemass

I also told him that I proposed to put him a few questions. Deputies opposite are not living up to Deputy Mulcahy's non-committal attitude. Is there a matter to be inquired into? Is there anybody in this Dáil who will say here now that they know that statement to be true or that they know anybody who will assert it to be true and give testimony to that effect before the tribunal? Silence.

Mr. Flanagan

That is what the tribunal is to find out.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Deputy testify before the tribunal that that statement is true?

Dr. O'Higgins

Is this kind of thing in order—this cross-examination? The Minister is entitled to put questions to the Deputy. The Deputy is entitled to answer those questions——

Mr. Lemass

He is not answering them.

Dr. O'Higgins

When he speaks.

Mr. Lemass

I invite Deputy Flanagan to take a note of my questions. That is the statement he made. Is it true or not true?

Dr. O'Higgins

I rose on a point of order. Let me further remind the Leas-Cheann Comhairle that, ten minutes ago, the Minister was threatening the same Deputy if he opened his mouth.

Mr. Lemass

I invite Deputy Flanagan, when he comes to speak, to say whether that statement is true or not. Does he know, in fact, that it is true? Does he know anybody who will go before the tribunal and swear that it is true? Will he name the people——

Mr. Flanagan

Mr. Cooney.

Mr. Lemass

The person most frequently in contact with the Department about this distillery was Mr. Cooney. You say that Mr. Cooney was refused access to the Department?

Dr. O'Higgins

You asked a question and he has given you the answer.

Mr. Lemass

My Department was approached on four occasions concerning the sale of this distillery: on the first occasion, by the solicitor of Locke and Company, a gentleman named Mooney; on the second occasion, by certain British interests who, so far as I know, disappeared from the picture, and, on the third occasion and on the fourth occasion by Mr. Cooney. We were approached by nobody else.

Mr. Morrissey

On the fourth occasion, he brought the proper escort.

Mr. Lemass

Is that Deputy Morrissey's allegation? I am stating the fact; the Deputy, presumably, believes what he states to be true and will testify to it. Let me put something on the record: no individual or group approached my Department for information concerning the Government's attitude in connection with the sale of the distillery in any way which was not received and which did not receive precisely the same information as any other party obtained. That is on the record and I shall testify to it.

Dr. O'Higgins

Did Eindiguer and Sachael get the same——

Mr. Lemass

We shall deal with them. Deputy O'Higgins's testimony in that regard will come into the picture. Deputy Flanagan's second allegation was:—

"The Minister has very good reasons for withholding the information in order to safeguard the names of his colleagues and in order to safeguard a certain Minister of State that has a keen personal interest in the question of the sale of Locke's Distillery."

Who is the Minister? Is this Dáil being asked to set up a committee of inquiry into charges against a Minister who will not be named? Note the silence. Is Deputy Mulcahy standing over his motion now?

General Mulcahy

The Minister is helping me more and more to stand over it.

Mr. Lemass

There is an allegation against some Minister but so indefinite is that allegation that the name of that Minister will not be given. I cannot ask Deputy Flanagan to answer now. Even if I did, it would be quite useless. When he comes to speak, I ask him to say what Minister he had in mind when saying that or what knowledge he has to support that allegation or, if he has not that knowledge, who has and what he means precisely by "keen personal interest in the question of the sale of Locke's Distillery"? The Deputy's third allegation was:—

"Mr. George Eindiguer stated in the presence of a number of citizens in a certain hotel in this city that it was suggested by Senator Quirke that it might be a nice friendly gesture if Mr. Eindiguer would bring over a gold watch and give it to the Taoiseach's son as a present in order to soften things."

Silence is of no importance here because Deputy Flanagan went on:

"That is a statement I can stand over; that is a statement that was made by Senator Quirke to Mr. Eindiguer."

It is with some reluctance that I deal with this matter of the watch. Nasty things come into the political life of this country and, as Deputy Mulcahy has associated himself with this nasty thing, he is going to feel the full brunt of this. Senator Quirke has a sister to whom he is very deeply attached. That sister was seriously ill. She was in a sanatorium on the Continent and so ill that hopes of her recovery ended. Senator Quirke arranged to bring her back to Ireland. He brought her back and he placed her under the care of Dr. de Valera. Under his care, she recovered—a rather remarkable recovery. So deeply grateful was Senator Quirke to Dr. de Valera for the care, attention and skill which he devoted to his sister and for the remarkable recovery which he effected that he was anxious to make to Dr. de Valera a presentation of some kind. He saw Mr. Eindiguer wearing a watch and he said that that was the type of watch he would like to buy to present to Dr. de Valera. That was the end of the matter. So far as Senator Quirke was concerned, the watch was never purchased and never presented.

General Mulcahy

Where is the full brunt of that, so far as I am concerned?

Mr. Lemass

If the Deputy does not feel any sense of shame, he is beyond redemption. What is the allegation? What is the purpose of Deputy Flanagan's mean insinuation? Is it seriously believed by any Deputy opposite that Mr. Eindiguer was going to get some concession from the Department of Industry and Commerce because of a watch presented to Dr. de Valera? Let me say here that, so far as I know, Dr. de Valera does not yet know that such a presentation was intended. He was probably the only one who did not know that Senator Quirke had the idea in mind.

Mr. Flanagan

Maximoe has his watch.

Mr. Lemass

That is on the record, too, and the Deputy will, no doubt, of his own knowledge be able to testify to it. Is it seriously believed by any Deputy here that by a process of bringing a watch to Dr. de Valera, a watch which he did not know he was going to get and has not yet got, Eindiguer or his friends got some concession in the Department of Industry and Commerce? What concession did they get? What is the allegation? In what way is it suggested that as a result of that particular measure that they got any advantage? What advantages is it alleged they got? Is it seriously believed by anyone that I, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, dealing with that application for an increase in Locke's quota made by Mr. Cooney, the manager of Locke's, and who never heard of Eindiguer, who never before then knew of his existence or heard his name mentioned or knew of the watch, was nevertheless influenced in my judgment by this intention of Senator Quirke? Is that a proper matter on which to set up a commission of inquiry to investigate? I hope Deputy Mulcahy is beginning to feel some sense of shame.

Mr. Flanagan

Tell us how they got into Árus an Uachtaráin.

Mr. Lemass

"Sixty-one thousand gallons of whiskey from this distillery were to be sold by those irresponsible Swiss citizens at £11 per gallon in the black market to a Mr. Jameson, representing Messrs. James Stewart and Co., Distillers, Park Lane, London, and for this transaction in the black market they were to get £660,000"—no less. Does Deputy Flanagan know that to be a fact?

Mr. Flanagan

Mr. Cooney, the Managing Director, knows it to be a fact and can stand over it and prove it.

Mr. Lemass

I am delighted the Deputy said that. I am delighted to have that on the record because Mr. Cooney, the Managing Director of the Kilbeggan Distillery, wrote a letter on the 14th October, which is on the Departmental file, in which he stated that he had received a report that this whiskey was being offered and that it was stated on the document: "Export licence available," and continued: "I knew this was not so and that it would take a long number of years to deliver the quantity from our licence." I am glad Mr. Cooney is being brought out into the open because I, personally, had no doubt as to who was inspiring Deputy Flanagan to raise this question here. Did Mr. Cooney tell Deputy Flanagan that there were 61,000 gallons of mature whiskey in Kilbeggan? Does Deputy Flanagan know that there are? At the conference which was held on the 16th April, at which all the distilleries were represented, and which was concerned with the possibility of increasing whiskey sales, Mr. Cooney, having mentioned the fact that the distillery was for sale, added that a change of ownership would not have any significant effect on the total quantity of whiskey to be released from bond as the Kilbeggan Distillery held only a very small stock of mature whiskey. Is it beginning to dawn on Deputy Flanagan that he was led up the garden by Mr. Cooney? If it is not, it will dawn on him yet.

Mr. Blowick

Did Mr. Cooney state the number of gallons then available?

Mr. Lemass

I know the number of gallons which were then available but I do not want to give information concerning this firm until it has to be done. I can understand Deputy Blowick's interest in Mr. Cooney. He was a candidate, I believe, for his Party at the last election.

Mr. Blowick

The Minister has no information as to whether Deputy Blowick is interested or not.

Mr. Lemass

You have a paternal interest in Mr. Cooney's welfare. Dr. O'Higgins, too, knows something— something that is on the record. "Within 24 hours of their arrival they were able to enter a Minister's office and get documents and evidence of trade facilities...." Does Dr. O'Higgins know that to be true?

Dr. O'Higgins

Dr. O'Higgins has information which he conscientiously believes to be reliable to justify that statement.

Mr. Lemass

I am delighted the Deputy has said that. I am putting this on the record. These people were never in the Department of Industry and Commerce at any time during their whole stay in this country—not on a single occasion.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Minister is an expert at debate and evasiveness. When I speak of "these people" I speak of them or their representatives.

Mr. Lemass

"Their representatives" being Mr. Joseph Cooney. The only representative of these people who came to the Department of Industry and Commerce was Mr. Joseph Cooney, accompanied by Senator William Quirke.

Dr. O'Higgins

I have a statement on record and I am——

Mr. Lemass

You are already beginning to qualify it.

Dr. O'Higgins

No. I am anxious to get an opportunity to produce and show the information I have behind it.

Mr. Lemass

I believe the Deputy will have plenty of opportunity for doing so.

Dr. O'Higgins

I do not want to be caught out on a point.

Mr. Lemass

"Within 24 hours of their arrival they were able to enter a Minister's office and get documents and evidence of trade facilities." That is the statement Deputy Dr. O'Higgins says he can prove to be true.

Dr. O'Higgins

I did not catch the Minister on that.

Mr. Lemass

I will repeat it for your benefit. "Within 24 hours of their arrival they were able to enter a Minister's office and get documents and evidence of trade facilities." Do you now say you can prove that statement to be true?

Dr. O'Higgins

I have stated very clearly——

Mr. Lemass

——that the statement is not true.

Dr. O'Higgins

There are more reputations than the Minister's at stake.

The Taoiseach

That is true.

Dr. O'Higgins

What I stated was that Dr. O'Higgins made that statement on information which he conscientiously believed to be reliable and which he would produce at the proper time.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy will have a chance. I am on the record. I say that that is untrue in substance and in fact. That is the whole of the case. These are all the allegations that were made in the Dáil. People were going round the country whispering other allegations. Unfortunately we cannot deal with these. That is the sum total of the charges made here.

Mr. Flanagan

Tell us what happened in Árus an Uachtaráin.

Mr. Lemass

Just a minute. There were certain non-nationals involved in this business. Mr. Eindiguer. I never heard of him until his name was mentioned by Mr. Cooney on the occasion of his visit to the Department on the 9th September. I certainly hold no brief for him. He was a visitor to this country and until we know otherwise we should at least moderate our language in relation to him. The information available to us does not justify an assumption that he is other than what he represented himself to be. Enquiry was made from the police in Switzerland and from Scotland Yard and both reported that they know nothing against him. A commercial enquiry agency states that he has displayed fairly wide commercial activity inside and outside Switzerland, and that he has been a director of various companies. So far as we are concerned, we have nothing against him except that he was found here in bad company.

Mr. Flanagan

With the President.

Mr. Lemass

It may be that he was a victim. He came here accompanied by this man Smith, alias Maximoe, who was described as his interpreter.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister clear one point?

Mr. Lemass

Certainly.

Mr. Norton

Is Cooney supposed to be in with the Eindiguer group?

Mr. Lemass

He came as a representative of the group. Mr. Eindiguer came here because, I understand, he had established contacts in Switzerland with Mr. Morris of Clonmel. Mr. Morris had visited Switzerland in connection with some dog-racing development. He is, as everybody knows, the head of the dog-racing business in this country. He met Mr. Eindiguer there and Mr. Eindiguer came here under the auspices of Mr. Morris. He acted in a reputable way. He employed the firm of Arthur Cox & Co. as his solicitors and the firm of Stokes & Quirke as his auctioneers to carry through the deal. After a period a report appeared in the newspapers that Mr. Eindiguer, Maximoe and another alien named Sachael had been received at Árus an Uachtaráin. How that came about I have no knowledge. But immediately that report appeared in the newspapers, one man who knew something of this Mr. Sachael and who had previously been in contact with these other non-nationals and had entertained no doubts about their bona fides, became suspicious. That man was Senator Quirke. The Minister for Justice referred here last week to a friend who rang him up and urged that inquiry should be made. That friend was Senator Quirke. There was associated with this business Mr. Morris of Clonmel who, I understand, is a strong supporter of the Fine Gael Party, and Mr. Cooney, an adherent of Clann na Talmhan. If they had any suspicion about the bona fides of these non-nationals they did not communicate them to the police.

Mr. Dillon

Are you going to follow that line? If you are, we will deal with it.

Mr. Lemass

But immediately Senator Quirke saw this report in the newspaper, saw that these people were associated with Sachael—and that is the first time such association had come to his notice——

Mr. Dillon

Who was trying to take Senator Quirke's commission from him.

Mr. Lemass

——he got on the telephone to the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Dillon

And got Sachael deported.

Mr. Lemass

I hope that is on the record. Would the Deputy repeat it, please?

Mr. Dillon

Who was engaged at the time in trying to take away from the firm of Stokes & Quirke the patronage of Eindinguer, who was believed to be a wealthy man and about to transact a large purchase upon which the commission was £22,000.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy has evidence to support that allegation, no doubt. He will certainly be given an opportunity of producing it. However, the fact of the matter is that when this report appeared in the newspaper, Senator Quirke became suspicious because, as I said, he knew something of Sachael, knew that he was an alien under orders for deportation, immediately telephoned the Minister for Justice, who immediately contacted the police and instructed them to make all requisite inquiries.

Dr. O'Higgins

May I ask the Minister how did the Senator know that he was under orders for deportation and at what point?

Mr. Lemass

I do not think there was any secret about it.

Dr. O'Higgins

At what point did he know it? How long had he the knowledge before he rang up?

Mr. Lemass

I do not know.

Dr. O'Higgins

May I ask was there a falling out between Senator Quirke and the gentleman referred to and subsequent to that falling out he rang up the Minister for Justice?

Mr. Lemass

I do not know.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. MacEntee)

Does Deputy O'Higgins know?

Mr. Lemass

I will deal with the facts as they appear. Deputy O'Higgins is forgetting Deputy Mulcahy's attitude. Deputy Mulcahy's attitude is that you are making no accusations; you only think that as accusations have been made it is in the public interest that an inquiry should be held. They are doing their best to try by insinuation after insinuation to blacken the character of a man who is not here.

Dr. O'Higgins

I am asking this question: Senator Quirke at a point rang up the Minister for Justice——

Mr. Lemass

And he said——

Dr. O'Higgins

That man—there is a deportation order against him?

Mr. Lemass

No. He said: "I see that these people are in association with Sachael. That means the police should inquire about them."

Dr. O'Higgins

How long had he that knowledge?

Mr. Flanagan

Could the Minister say——

Mr. Lemass

By all means. I am glad you have broken your vow of silence.

Dr. O'Higgins

Is there only one Deputy who can ask questions?

Mr. Flanagan

Is this Sachael the same Sachael as was in communication with the Minister's Department about starting a factory in this country to assemble Czechoslovakian motor cars in conjunction with Deputy Briscoe?

Mr. Briscoe

That is untrue. I do not know the man. I never heard of him.

Mr. Lemass

This is what you want to inquire into. Do you want another inquiry into that allegation?

Mr. Flanagan

I only asked the question.

Mr. Lemass

You are only trying to blacken another man's character, a man whose boots you are not fit to lick.

General Mulcahy

What I asked for was an orderly inquiry, Sir, where questions would be put in an orderly way before a body entitled and competent to listen to them in an orderly way.

Mr. Lemass

An orderly inquiry in relation to allegations made by Deputy Flanagan and with no other support for them except his word!

General Mulcahy

Who started the disorder?

Mr. Lemass

I know that Deputies opposite have had the bottom knocked out of their case by the fact that the first and only man to get suspicious about these foreigners and to draw the attention of the proper authorities to them was Senator Quirke.

Mr. Morrissey

Nonsense.

Mr. Lemass

You have been besmirching his character, insinuating lies against him all over the country, but that is the fact that destroys your case.

General MacEoin

Who has been besmirching him? Who is making the wild charges now?

Mr. Briscoe

Deputy Flanagan has made a statement here that this man Sachael was about to engage in the assembly of motor cars in association with me.

Mr. Flanagan

I am only asking the question.

Mr. Briscoe

Do you make that allegation?

Mr. Flanagan

I just want to know is it a fact.

Mr. Briscoe

I ask you to withdraw it now because it is untrue. I never heard of the man.

Mr. Flanagan

That is all I want to know.

Mr. Briscoe

Withdraw it then.

Mr. Flanagan

I did not make a statement. I asked to know was it a fact. I did not make a statement.

Mr. Lemass

Does Deputy Flanagan withdraw the insinuation?

Mr. Flanagan

I made no statement.

Mr. Briscoe

I ask him to withdraw.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy insinuated and I think he should withdraw that on the disclaimer of Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. Flanagan

If I insinuated, I withdraw.

Mr. Lemass

That is typical of Deputy Flanagan's honesty. In any case, the police made inquiries concerning this man, Smith, identified him with Maximoe who was wanted by Scotland Yard, found that he had entered the country on a false passport and he was deported. According to the Press reports, he will not be available to give evidence at the tribunal. Now, Deputy Flanagan says that Maximoe was arrested in the house of a friend of the Minister for Justice—this Mr. Sachael —such a friend of the Minister for Justice that the Minister for Justice ordered him to leave the country. Sachael was an alien who came here in circumstances described to-day by the Minister for Justice, and who at one time was interested in a project for the assembly of Czechoslovakian cars here. The police became suspicious of him and the period in which he was allowed to remain in the country was curtailed. If there is going to be any inquiry about that——

Mr. Flanagan

I am glad to hear that was his business.

Mr. Lemass

He had other business also. In any case, as soon as the Guards began to make inquiries about him they decided that he was a man we were better off without and he was instructed to wind up his affairs and to get out. He has gone. Deputy Flanagan said he is an alien who sold £25,000 worth of Irish tweed to get dollars for "you", the "you" being in this case the Minister for Justice or the Government. Does Deputy Flanagan know that to be true? Who told Deputy Flanagan that yarn? Let me say, for the purpose of the record, that you cannot export any tweed or other cloth from this country without a permit and that no permit to export as much as one yard of cloth was issued to Mr. Sachael or anybody associated with him. These are the allegations. Do you still want an inquiry?

General Mulcahy

Yes. We certainly do.

Mr. Lemass

If there is going to be an inquiry, we will give the tribunal something to inquire about. I will make allegations. Deputies opposite have not the monopoly of that. At least, I will ask a few questions which this tribunal may well be asked to answer. We know that there were other people interested in buying this distillery besides this particular group that are under discussion here. We know that one gentleman, in the course of an interview with the Department, expressed concern that other bidders might offer a higher price for the distillery than he was prepared to bid. Every Deputy here knows that somebody briefed Deputy Flanagan. Somebody induced him to come into this House and raise this question. Will Deputy Flanagan say who it was? The Deputy's silence will not protect him. That question will be asked in another place where he will have to answer and that is why I, for one, would be glad to see an inquiry. Could it be that that person asked Deputy Flanagan to raise this question here in the way in which it was raised with the idea that if Deputy Flanagan raised enough stink other prospective purchasers would be warned off and he could buy the property cheaper? I am not accusing Deputy Flanagan of being anything else but a tool. I think he was just handed a stick which he thought he could use to beat the Government and had not the sense to inquire into the motives of the man who handed him the stick. Or, was Deputy Flanagan a tool? Did he know the motives of the person who asked him to raise the matter here? Did he know that the raising of this matter here might be of cash benefit to that individual? I put this question on the record—to ask the tribunal to answer that also.

Mr. Dillon

I cannot imagine that the cause of decency in the public life of this country has been materially served by the contribution made by the Tánaiste. I frequently find myself finding fault with the Leader of the Opposition for that he leans backwards in moderation expecting to elicit from the Government Front Bench a similar solicitude for decency in public life and the dignity of this Parliament. He never gets it, and instead of meeting with the moderate and judicial tone which he chose to adopt here to-day, the Tánaiste proceeded to put on a riotous and disedifying act. In the course of a long defence of himself, of his Department and of his colleagues, for which this was not the occasion, I understood him to say that four separate parties, one after the other, were at his Department to inquire about the permissibility of purchasing this distillery, and the Minister added "all four were told the same story". Is that true? He seems to have forgotten that ten minutes before he had informed us that the first three parties were given all the warning that the fourth party, of which Senator Quirke was a member, got, the warning and also the information that the export quota of this distillery would be raised from 4,000 gallons to 8,000 gallons in order to test the Swiss market. Now, there is an awful lot of money to be made out of an additional export of 4,000 gallons per annum, and if on my first request I could get a concession of 100 per cent. from the Department might not a modestly hopeful heart prophesy that at the next interview some further progress might be made in increasing the export quota which had already, at the first time of asking, gone up by 100 per cent.? Surely, there is a difference between the story told to this fourth party and to the other three, and a vital difference.

I confess that when I heard Deputy Flanagan recite the story about Mr. Eindiguer being asked to bring a gold watch to this country to present it to the Taoiseach's son I regarded it as just fantastic nonsense—that Deputy Flanagan had been sold a dud. I confess to being utterly stunned by the story told here by the Tánaiste to-day. Surely, if any of us wanted to make a handsome present to a person, to someone in whose debt we were deeply committed in the circumstances recited by the Tánaiste, it was reasonable, natural and to be expected that Senator Quirke would feel himself under a debt that no fee could pay to Dr. de Valera for the medical services he had done—but in that atmosphere is there not something strangely incongruous that when you are choosing your gift that you should choose to smuggle it?

Mr. Lemass

Whose suggestion is that?

Mr. Dillon

Your suggestion.

Mr. Lemass

No.

Mr. Dillon

I have said that the thing is fantastic, but the Minister tells me that Senator Quirke said to Eindiguer "that is the kind of watch I want; will you bring it over the next time you are coming?"

Mr. Lemass

I did not say that.

Mr. Dillon

Yes. Maybe the man meant that Endiguer would go around to the Department to get a licence from the Minister, import the watch, present it to the customs, pay duty on it and bring it in, and that he would recoup him, but it seems so odd to me, because if I felt my heart overflowing with the desire to offer something over and above a generous fee I would go down to West's or Weir's or Hopkins' and get a really choice watch to give to my benefactor. However, it is quite conceivable that we here, hearing this story, are being wise after the event. Let me go on record in saying that I am as certain as that we are standing in this room that there was nothing present to the mind of the Taoiseach or Dr. de Valera which would for a moment justify——

The Taoiseach

I did not hear it until it was mentioned here.

Mr. Dillon

——the suggestion that they knew or heard anything or discussed anything. I prefer to think, and I am prepared to concede in the context of the story told by the Tánaiste that in this matter Senator Quirke was guilty of an indiscretion. Instead of going down town and buying a watch the thought occurred to his mind when he saw this time-piece in Eindiguer's hand. Why he should draw Dr. de Valera's name into the matter and not realise that that name had associations in this country, that it was not a prudent thing to canvass about with a well-known financier, surpasses me to understand, but to pretend that the person to whom that story was told is moved by nothing but malice when he comments adversely upon it is fantastic. The best thing we can say is that a fantastic indiscretion took place on that occasion. To mention the name of the Taoiseach's son in such a context was really beyond the limits of wild indiscretion.

The Tánaiste referred to a report made by Senator Quirke to the Minister for Justice that his suspicious were aroused by the appearance of Mr. Sachael in the company of Mr. Maximoe and Mr. Eindiguer.

Mr. Boland

He was not known as Maximoe at that time.

Mr. Dillon

No, but as Mr. Smith. I can well imagine Senator Quirke acting in that way. The Minister went on to say that Senator Quirke, Mr. Morris and Mr. Cooney were all apprised of this, but that only the public-spirited Senator Quirke rushed to the Minister for Justice and warned him. That is one explanation, but if you want to make those kind of reflections remember that that story can be given another meaning. I will tell the House in a moment that the way Sachael appeared in this whole transaction was that he was trying to muscle in on Senator Quirke's deal: that he had, in fact, taken away Senator Quirke's customer from him.

Mr. Lemass

Do you know this?

Mr. Dillon

How do you know that Mr. Morris and Mr. Cooney failed in their duty?

Mr. Lemass

I did not say so.

Mr. Dillon

You implied it—that Senator Quirke rushed to the Minister, whereas the other two men did nothing. I am saying there are two interpretations could be put on that. I know that Sachael was muscling in. I know that Sachael had got hold of Eindiguer.

Mr. Lemass

You know it.

Mr. Dillon

I know it and a lot more that I propose to tell you before I sit down. I know that Senator Quirke went to the Minister for Justice, because I was told so by the Minister for Industry and Commerce to-day, and directed the Minister's attention to the fact that Eindiguer was no longer in the company of Senator Quirke, but was drinking tea with Sachael in Árus an Uachtaráin. The next performance was that the Minister for Industry and Commerce tells us that when he sent that message to the Minister he knew that Sachael was a man liable to deportation. The Tánaiste went on to say that Sachael was gone. There is nobody muscling in on the bargain now.

Mr. Lemass

That is an insinuation. I take it?

Mr. Dillon

It is a fact. Sachael is gone and you glory in it, and Sachael is gone at the instance of Senator Quirke. I think he is a very good riddance. It would have been a great deal better for all of us if he never came here and a great deal better still if he and Maximoe and Mr. Sweeney did not drink tea in the Presidential drawing-room and send the social secretary down to the telephone. Those blushing souls whom we are not to drag into the light of publicity were not so coy when they asked the social secretary in Árus an Uachtaráin to telephone to several newspapers in Dublin to announce that they had been drinking tea with the President. When some of the newspapers rang back to inquire were they to print it "Messieurs Sachael, Maximoe and Eindiguer and Mr. and Mrs. Sweeney"——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy making a charge against Mr. Sweeney?

Mr. Dillon

I am making no charges. In any case, with great respect, I propose to make my speech. Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle was not here when the Tánaiste chose to put this debate on this level. It is not the Opposition's seeking; it is the Minister desired to put these matters in issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Including Mr. Sweeney?

Mr. Dillon

Yes. There was no coyness then. They wanted the world to know that the names were "Messieurs Eindiguer, Maximoe and Sachael and Mr. and Mrs. Sweeney". Before that it was Messieurs Eindiguer and Maximoe and Mr. Sachael. That was the correction that was made. Mr. Sachael was hoping that Herr Von Sachael or Monsieur Sachael might be a thing of yesteryear and that in two years' time he would come to be known as Patrick O'Sachael from Connemara.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. MacEntee)

The Deputy knows that?

Mr. Dillon

That he was trying to plant himself here?

Mr. MacEntee

That he would become Mr. O'Sachael in a couple of years.

Mr. Dillon

I have seen so many of the Minister's supporters travel that road that I am intelligently deducing the future from what has occurred in the past. As to the last point made by the Tánaiste. "I deny," says the Tánaiste, "that any inquiry lies in regard to the conduct of private individuals." That is a general doctrine to which, ordinarily, we could all subscribe. I remember making that submission when Dr. Ward was the victim and it was rebutted very energetically from the opposite benches.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy is a friend and protector of his reputation.

Mr. Dillon

I am not his friend, protector or admirer, but I should like to see justice for the meanest creature in this country as for the most exalted. I agree with the general principle that the private affairs of Deputies or of citizens of this State are no concern of Parliament. But since when was the President of Ireland a private individual? Since when are the social columns registering the comings and goings of guests to that house of election a matter of private individuals? Since when did private individuals desiring to have their activities retained within the sphere of private activity go down and telephone to the public Press asking them to record that they had been drinking tea in Arus an Uachtaráin? We could understand foolish women with social aspirations seeking that distinction for no other purpose than to triumph over their neighbours. But can you picture the hard Sachael, the experienced Maximoe seeking to include their names in the social register of Árus an Uachtaráin in order to say to their neighbours in Connemara: "We got up to see the President and you did not"? Was it social ambition that inspired them to appear in that milieu before their neighbours?

That is in answer to the whirling language which the Tánaiste chose to employ. But I will state with as great detachment as I can the reasons why I support the Leader of the Opposition in the motion he makes to-night. He asks this House to inquire into the circumstances surrounding the transactions which have taken place in respect to Locke's Distillery. Here is the way the transactions look to one citizen of this State—myself.

From the information that came my way, every particle of which I thrust upon the Minister for Justice, not at his request but because I desire him to know it, I know that Mr. Eindiguer turns up in Ireland attended by Mr. Maximoe, alias Maxwell, alias Smith. But that is not all. That was the party whose names were published in the social intelligence column. But they were also attended, proximately or remotely, by Mrs. Chappell and Miss Donnico. Now perhaps the learned Tánaiste, who knows so much about this business, can tell us what Mrs. Chappell's interest in it was or what she claimed it to be. What was Miss Donnico's interest in this transaction?

Mr. Lemass

To the best of my knowledge I never heard the names before.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy maintain they were present?

Mr. Dillon

I do.

Mr. MacEntee

Do you know that?

Mr. Dillon

The moment these facts came to my knowledge I communicated them at once to the Minister for Justice.

Mr. MacEntee

You did not.

Mr. Dillon

Why does the Minister for Local Government say I did not?

Mr. MacEntee

You communicated them, I presume, to-day, when you knew this inquiry was coming off and you got cold feet.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps the Minister for Justice will correct him. Is it not true that I waited on the Minister immediately after the debate and told him all I knew?

Minister for Justice (Mr. Boland)

Last week; that is so. I want one thing to be clearly understood. These people mentioned by Deputy Dillon are not people who would require any permit. They were British people with passports and were not foreigners whom we would be entitled to question. We had no responsibility for their being here. That is the point I want to make.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps at this juncture the Minister for Local Government would intervene to say that he is sorry for his insolence.

Mr. MacEntee

I am not going to say I am sorry because it has elicited some information which has at least cleared my mind with regard to Deputy Dillon's part in this transaction. All the time he was making the balls for Deputy Flanagan to fire.

Dr. O'Higgins

Does the Minister know that? Might that be put on record? We will have it on oath.

Mr. Dillon

In the course of my observations, I stated that I informed the Minister for Justice in accordance with the undertaking I had given the House. The Minister for Local Government says I did not. I invite the Minister for Justice to correct him, which he does.

Mr. MacEntee

Naturally, I accept the word of the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Dillon

Was it not an ignorant and insolent thing not to accept mine?

Mr. MacEntee

So many of the Deputy's words are irresponsible that I must sometimes try to appraise them for myself.

Mr. Dillon

I assume he desires to be known as ignorant and insolent. The presence of these persons circulating in the atmosphere of this transaction causes me to wonder; but, let us not pretend that, in the course of trade and commerce, every casual person you meet in transacting business is a person for whose character and antecedents you can answer without reservation. I have no doubt that I have, I have no doubt that Senator Quirke has, and I have no doubt that every man in business has, from time to time, casually come in contact with persons in the course of business of whom he knows nothing.

But, then two new figures appear on the scene. It is then that Mr. Sachael under the escort of Mr. Sweeney appeared and this peculiar picture unfolds—Senator Quirke, Mr. Eindiguer, Mr. Maximoe and their retinue—all that retinue, all those principals make contact with Mr. Sweeney and Mr. Sachael, except Senator Quirke. The impression I draw from that is that Senator Quirke's position is: "I am not going to have anything to do with Sachael and Sweeney. I am prepared to transact this business for Mr. Eindiguer if he chooses to leave it in the hands of our firm, but Sachael and Sweeney have nothing to do with me and I want to have nothing to do with them." I am confirmed in that view because I suggest that Eindiguer, having been Senator Quirke's client and the full resources of Messrs. Stokes and Quirke being at his disposal, being approached to transfer his business from Senator Quirke's hands to Mr. Sweeney's, prudently replies: "I am in the hands of a very good man, a very influential man, a man who knows the ropes and I want no better agent than Quirke."

Mr. Eindiguer is a man who spoke only French and German—he spoke no English at all. He brought Maximoe here, or Maximoe alleged that he did, as his interpreter. Sachael spoke German, and when Sachael is informed by Mr. Eindiguer that he wants no change, that he is well content with his advisers, who are influential men, what surmise can we make except that somebody said: "Eindiguer believes that Quirke is the only man with pull in this country and he does not think Sweeney is worth a row of beans"? Then, on the following day, there is a paragraph in the Fashionable Intelligence: "Mr. Eindiguer, Mr. Maximoe and Mr. Sachael, with Mr. and Mrs. Sweeney, were entertained at Árus an Uachtaráin yesterday evening, where they drank tea with the President and his lady." Am I prudish if I say it ought to be a matter of inquiry when the facts, the known facts, establish at least a prima facie case that the office of the President was being used to lubricate the wheels of a somewhat unsavoury real estate deal?

An Ceann Comhairle

I assume that the Deputy is making no charge against the President.

Mr. MacEntee

He is, Sir.

Mr. Dillon

If my words bore that interpretation, I gladly add that, in so far as I am personally concerned, I am convinced that neither the President nor Mrs. O'Kelly was remotely conscious of this business, though I do not exonerate their secretarial staff who should be vigilant to protect the President and Mrs. O'Kelly from any form of exploitation of this kind, who should have been there at once to ask the President if he had satisfied himself as to the credentials of foreigners from abroad, and, on being told that a young man married to Mrs. O'Kelly's niece had introduced them, to have sounded a note of warning and to have said: "Young people may often be imposed upon. Will you not permit me to get in touch with Justice and the Aliens Department to satisfy ourselves that these are people proper to receive?" It was not done, and the result was that so loathsome a situation was created in the morning's paper that Senator Quirke could not waste a moment until he got in touch with the Minister for Justice to say: "Not only is this man Sachael unfit for presentation in the drawing-room of the President's wife, but he is a man I would not touch in the crudest business transaction, and not only that, but any person in his company at once becomes suspect in my eyes." He knew all about Sachael's record, albeit he never met the man, never had dealings with him, but so notorious was Sachael that Senator Quirke felt entitled to go at once and warn the Minister for Justice: "To be in that man's company is to be suspect. You had better start inquiries at once."

Senator Quirke was perfectly right, because the Minister directed appropriate steps to be taken, and they were. Two officers of the Aliens Department went out to the hotel where Eindiguer and Maximoe were staying, and, while they were looking at Eindiguer's passport, Maximoe slipped out the back door. Sachael was present in Dún Laoghaire when Maximoe went out the back door. and the police redoubled their exertions searching for Maximoe. Where did they find him after 24 hours' search? In the lavatory of Sachael's house, the door of which they had to break down with an axe before they could get him out.

Mr. Flanagan

Quite correct.

Mr. Dillon

The Tánaiste is amazed that anyone should expect an inquiry to be held into the circumstances "of a little private matter between private citizens". The guest of yesterday of Árus an Uachtaráin is locked by his fellow-guests into the lavatory and the police break down the door to get in at him. It could happen anywhere! Nothing unusual, nothing to get excited about, nothing to be making all this fuss about! I think it is disgusting. The person of the President and the residence of An Uachtarán are things which should not be lightly exposed to a public affront of that kind and those who made such an affront possible have something to answer for, more particularly if it emerges that these people were brought to Árus an Uachtaráin at the instance of Mr. Sweeney. This House is entitled to set up appropriate machinery to address the question to Mr. Sweeney: "Why did you bring these people there? Why did you think it right and for what purpose did you choose to introduce Sachael, Maximoe and Eindiguer to that House to which, by virtue of your relationship, you have the entrée"?

As the issue of this harmless exchange in Sachael's residence, Mr. Maximoe was put aboard a boat. Now Mr. Maximoe had arranged to go out from Collinstown Airport in an aeroplane with Mr. Eindiguer. Mr. Eindiguer caught the plane. He left the Royal Marine Hotel at 4 o'clock in the morning, on the morning after he had been interviewed by the two aliens officers. In calm dignity he emerged at 4 o'clock in the morning and shot away from the door of the hotel, having first thrown Mr. Cooney and then Miss Donnico out of his taxicab, hotly pursued to Collinstown. He got on the aeroplane; Maximoe did not, but Maximoe's luggage was at the airport. I asked the Minister for Justice what was found in Maximoe's luggage after this unhappy man had destroyed himself. The Minister replied to me that on his person, not his luggage, there was found a sum of £55 19s. 7½d. in Irish and British currency, a dollarnote and 1,000 franc note—I forget the exact amount. Did that inventory include what was found in his luggage at Collinstown or has the Minister yet inquired what was found in his luggage at Collinstown? Maximoe was located at Sachael's house, he was put on board and he jumped overboard, it is believed, to his death.

The case of Sachael was then inquired into. Such was his reputation, he was not deported; he was invited to go. There might have been difficulty in deporting him. He is one of the gentlemen who by design would have taken the midwives' drive. He would come expeditiously; he had no home to go to. Having come without credentials, Sachael became a landed proprietor in this country. I think Deputy Beegan had the honour of representing him in this House. Mr. Sachael who had arrived here from nowhere without a passport to transact import and export business——

Mr. Beegan

On a point of order, Deputy Dillon has referred to me as representing Mr. Sachael in this House. I know nothing whatever about this man. I do not represent him or any other foreigner.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Beegan has not been as diligent as Senator Quirke. Senator Quirke knew all about him and apparently that was very little. Sachael had become a landed proprietor. He was no longer a musty clerk behind a desk. He had tied a sugan below his knee and was slowly being merged into the Irish landscape as a tenant farmer. I doubt not he was looking for a picture of Parnell to hang up in his kitchen.

Mr. Flanagan

And he would read the "Life of de Valera" at night-time.

Mr. Dillon

How did Sachael come to acquire land in Ireland?

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy say that this is relevant to an inquiry in regard to Locke's distillery?

Mr. Dillon

It is, Sir. The fact is, I think, that these scabrous facts are generally scattered around the central fact of the proposed sale of Locke's Distillery and people are entitled to know how these miscellaneous collections of rag bags found fools ready to introduce them to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce as a worth while body of industrialists or how they could impose themselves upon Senator Quirke as a responsible body of persons——

Mr. MacEntee

Or on a well-known Dublin solicitor.

Mr. Dillon

Or on Mr. Sweeney.

Mr. MacEntee

Or on a well-known Dublin solicitor, a former agent of Fine Gael.

Mr. Dillon

Not only was this rag bag presented there but he was presented at Árus an Uachtaráin. I could understand everything until we come to the threshold of that door. The least amongst us is careful as to whom we may introduce into our own homes. The least amongst us should be circumspect not only in respect to his own home but the home of the President of Ireland.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is the third time the Deputy has repeated himself.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, when interrupted by the Minister, who suggests that there is any conceivable analogy between a solicitor who would take instructions from a Dr. Crippen or a Mrs. Seddon, because of his duty to do so, taking instructions from this rag-bag, and the President of Ireland receiving them as guests in his wife's drawing-room. Sachael is gone, Maximoe is gone, Eindiguer is gone. But is there any power of attorney for Mr. Eindiguer in existence? Is there a power of attorney in this city at this moment authorising an individual to buy Locke's Distillery for Mr. Eindiguer?

Mr. Flanagan

Yes, there is.

Mr. Dillon

I think there is.

Mr. Flanagan

Quite correct.

Mr. Lemass

What has that to do with the proposed inquiry?

Mr. Dillon

This, that the man who holds it is the man who brought that rag-bag into Árus an Uachtaráin.

Mr. Flanagan

And he is married to the President's niece.

Mr. Lemass

Is that an offence, too?

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy has not yet found anyone to marry him.

Mr. Dillon

Eindiguer began in this country as the client of one firm which was lawfully and legitimately entitled to collect a handsome commission on a perfectly ordinary transaction. If my information is correct, after all this strange story has been told, Eindiguer is the client of another man who holds the power of attorney, a man he had never seen in his life or heard of till he came to Ireland, and the only nexus between them is the tea-party in Árus an Uachtaráin.

Am I unduly solicitous? Is it suggested that I am unreasonably fastidious in finding that transaction unsavoury and deserving of inquiry, or have we sunk to the level in this country that we take it as the norm that the office and prestige of the President of Ireland should be used for the purpose of lubricating unsavoury transactions?

What I have here recited is all I know, every syllable and particle of which I communicated to the Minister for Justice before I entered this House and as soon as it came to my knowledge. On the facts as set out by me here, I believe there is a crying need for inquiry. It is necessary to assure the public, first, that conduct of this character meets with approbation in no responsible quarter and, secondly, to warn future parties that any attempt to turn this country into a banana republic with that kind of chicanery will not for one moment be tolerated and is fore-doomed to failure because there will be found Deputies in Dáil Eireann, if nowhere else, prepared to face the misrepresentation, the insolence, the threats and the blackmail of impudent members of the Government Party rather than recoil from the duty which they owe those who voted for them, to defend truth, to stand for decency, to condemn dirty chicanery of this kind, no matter what its source and whence it comes.

I challenge the Government to accept this motion. I assert that they should originally have set it down. I hope that when they do establish a suitable tribunal, which shall be fearless and impartial, that the air of this country will be cleansed of a very dirty smell and that a standard of conduct will be established, not exalted, not exotic, but just the ordinary standard of honour and decency that up to now has been well known to the vast masses of our people, with instructions from nobody.

Mr. Boland

I should like to make a little explanation. I do not want to intervene unless to clear up one point. It is about Senator Quirke. I did not mention his name last week because I did not know whether the Chair would be prepared to let me do so, and his firm did not think I should. The evening that Senator Quirke rang me up was the evening of the day the announcement appeared in the paper that this group had been received at Árus an Uachtaráin. On that occasion he told me that he only knew of this man Sachael by name and he had no suspicion whatever that Sachael was connected with either Eindiguer or the man who up to that moment was known as Smith. He was not aware, and neither were we until later, that Smith and Maximoe were the same person.

It was because of his horror at seeing a man he believed to be a shady man in that company, that he got suspicious of the others. I want to make that point quite clear. It was not personal information. I think someone asked how long did Senator Quirke know him. He did not know him at all, only in the way business people get to know others, by reputation—it was only that way. Senator Quirke had not read the paper until tea-time that evening because he was busy otherwise. When he was having tea at home he read it in the paper and he immediately got alarmed and rang me.

Dr. O'Higgins

I think it will be generally agreed that any and every sense of public decency and national pride must have been outraged by the frenzied antics of the Tánaiste here this evening. Strangers not so familiar with the ease with which the same Minister can indulge in play-acting, must have wondered why, in the motion before the House, moved in the very serious and moderate tone in which it was moved, a Minister should immediately rush into a fanatical passion at white heat and attempt to bulldoze Deputies. There is no doubt that the Minister's antics were an attempt to bulldoze and intimidate a Deputy who, I believe, is the youngest member of this House. Why the heat? Why the intimidation? And why the attempted bulldozing? It was all because that Deputy, arising out of questions put to Ministers, had been answered in such an unsatisfactory manner that the Ceann Comhairle thought it right that permission should be given to have the matter raised on the adjournment last Wednesday evening.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy said the Ceann Comhairle allowed certain matters to be raised on the adjournment because of the unsatisfactory answers given by a Minister. That is not the case. The Chair does not question whether the answer is unsatisfactory or not if the Deputy requires more information.

Mr. Lemass

That is just typical of Deputy O'Higgins's honesty.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Deputy found it necessary to raise that matter on the adjournment last Wednesevening because of the unsatisfactory manner in which Ministers answered his questions. He acted on information which I am certain he believed to be reliable and information the sources of which I believe he will give at the proper time.

Mr. Lemass

Afterwards.

Dr. O'Higgins

Let the Minister stay quiet until I have finished. He has done his antics, he has roared and jumped around this House, he has attempted to slide over the fact that men wanted from Scotland Yard, judged worthy of deportation from this State of ours, were just ordinary private citizens and that it would be an outrage to inquire into their activities.

Mr. Lemass

On a point of explanation, that is a misrepresentation. I referred as private citizens to the people who owned the distillery and those who may have had business transactions with them that had nothing whatever to do with public men.

Dr. O'Higgins

That is a correction by the master of misrepresentation in this House. The questions were put down last Wednesday morning and as a result of the unsatisfactory answers given, allegations were made by a Deputy in Dáil Éireann on last Wednesday. What were the allegations? As far as I listened in to that debate, they were (1) that valuable concessions were given by the Minister's Department to financial speculators who were introduced to the Department by a man of immense political importance in the Minister's Party; (2) that in the course of conversations or discussions or meetings between that particular member of the Minister's Party and a wealthy alien who was interested in a purchase, a suggestion had been made that a watch would be brought into the country——

Mr. Lemass

Who said that?

Dr. O'Higgins

A Deputy in the Dáil.

Mr. Lemass

He did not. Will the Deputy quote the Official Report?

Dr. O'Higgins

I will.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy is trying to add now to Deputy Flanagan's insinuations—and is he an adept at it? Let Deputy Flanagan tell his own lies and do not be trying to embellish them for him.

Dr. O'Higgins

I am getting the extract. There was mention of a watch——

Mr. Flanagan

For the Taoiseach's son.

Dr. O'Higgins

For the Taoiseach's son. Then (3) that information was conveyed to the Minister for Justice with regard to the character and past record of one of the people concerned in this particular deal, and (4) that these undesirable characters, unwanted by this country, wanted by Scotland Yard, had been entertained at Árus an Uachtaráin. As far as I recollect, and as far as I digested the Deputy's statement on Wednesday evening last, the substance of his statement fell within those four lines.

Having listened to that statement by the Deputy and having heard rumours about this city, I, in the absence of Deputy Mulcahy, as acting-leader of this Party, felt to be unwise the line the Minister opposite was taking of interrupting and more or less suppressing discussion. I felt that it was in the interests of the good name of this country, and of this Parliament and its Government—and my words are there on record—to warn the Government that it was unwise to suppress discussion or withhold full information with regard to this particular transaction. In the course of that brief statement— five minutes in all—I stated that the allegations made might be unwarrantable, but that they were being bandied around from mouth to mouth and, because of that, any appearance of suppressing discussion or witholding information would not be in the best interests of the country. Because of that attitude of mine, I pulled down on my head the frenzied anger and vituperation of the Tánaiste of the present Government. Is that zeal, is it dignified, does it create a good or a bad impression on anybody, either an Irish national or a foreigner, interested in this particular question, which is an international question?

Was there anything wrong in the motion there, that the whole thing in the public interest should be inquired into by 11 Deputies of this House, and moved in that moderate tone? Was there anything in the tone that was provocative or suggestive? Was there anything unjust in the speech we listened to from the supporters of this motion? Was there anything that should produce heat nearly to the point of lunatic behaviour? If there was anything in the statement or speech of the Leader of the Opposition that produced all that heat and ferocity, then it must have been the motion itself.

Why should we not have a motion to the effect that 11 members of the Dáil should inquire into allegations and, if they were untrue, demonstrate and prove they were untrue and, if they were irresponsible and were not based on reliable information or information believed to be reliable, make them recoil on the Deputy or Deputies who uttered them? Is there anything in that to produce all that heat, all that ferocity, that attempt to badger, intimidate and bulldoze a young Deputy of this House? I regard the conduct of the Tánaiste as being next door to scandalous. I do not believe there was ever a democratic Parliament where there was such a naked attempt to gag discussion on a question. The Taoiseach grunts, but the Taoiseach does not display a very pleasant smile. It is rather a nasty grin and we had enough of that from his kettle drummer.

A Deputy

Sez you.

Dr. O'Higgins

What I am putting to the Taoiseach and to the interrupter up there is: "Why all the heat, why all the rage?" There was nothing in the speech to produce it. Is it because 11 members of this House have been asked to inquire into the truth of allegations made? If the allegations have so little foundation as the Minister would have us believe, is there any harm done? Is there anything to get angry about, anything to get heated about, because an inquiry was asked for? I object, as a senior member of this Assembly, to any Deputy being treated in the truculent manner in which the Tánaiste attempts to treat a young Deputy who happens to be an Independent, to have no Party and no colleagues. It would be inexcusable if that particular line of intimidation and bulldozing were taken against one of the most senior members of this House with a large Party around him. It is quite clear that the Minister does not want a full inquiry and I suggest, as the Leader of this Party suggested earlier to-night, that a tribunal should have been appointed rather than have this discussion to-night. The type of debate in which the Tánaiste engaged could not produce anything but a debate nationally harmful and nationally discreditable. It would certainly tempt and provoke any normal Deputy to reply in kind-this business of taking down every word a man spoke—"put that on record"—"you will be called on to swear to that"—"you will get the opportunity of repeating that on oath." Was there ever such scandalous behaviour on the part of a man occupying a high position and does the Taoiseach approve of his Tánaiste? Anybody with any sense of pride of Parliament, with respect for the years of sacrifice and the countless lives lost to establish an Irish Parliament, with any sense of decency, must have been shocked by such scandalous conduct from any Deputy, but particularly from the man holding the second highest and the second most responsible position in the Parliament.

The Minister challenged me in regard to a reference which was or was not made to bringing in a watch to the country.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy said "smuggled".

Dr. O'Higgins

I emphatically deny that. I heard the word used earlier in the debate. Does the Minister accept my denial? He does not? I would not have expected him to.

Mr. MacEntee

I know what the Deputy said; I was listening to him to-night.

Dr. O'Higgins

I know you know what I said and you know what is being put into my mouth.

Mr. MacEntee

He said that Senator Quirke invited a certain person to smuggle a gold watch into the country.

Dr. O'Higgins

I said nothing of the kind. The word was used and I understand withdrawn earlier to-night.

General Mulcahy

Is there any man here who would substantiate the statement?

Dr. O'Higgins

Not one. This kind of delusion of the mentality of hearing words spoken which were never uttered is responsible for the crazy direction of the country at present.

I refer to a point in the Deputy's allegations and I know how grave it would be for the country if there was any scintilla of truth in the allegations and I know how misunderstood they would be by Ministers who are trying to suppress the discussion and withhold information. I press that the Government should give the fullest information available.

Mr. Lemass

Is the Deputy standing over what he said or not?

Dr. O'Higgins

When you see me running away from any remark I made you will see queer things. I stand absolutely on every word I put on record and I hope to see the day when the Minister a week afterwards will be able to stand over his statements.

Mr. Lemass

Will the Deputy be able to stand on it on oath?

Dr. O'Higgins

The Deputy is not to be intimidated by a cheap bluffer, and I stand over every word, but I do not stand on the words which the Tánaiste or the Minister sitting beside him care to put into my mouth in their efforts to misquote me.

Mr. Lemass

There has been no misquoting.

Dr. O'Higgins

The following are what emanate from the Tánaiste's discussions here this evening: first, a permit for double the export of whiskey which the firm previously had was given to one group of financiers who were accompanied by Senator Quirke.

Mr. Lemass

It was given to Mr. Cooney, the manager of the company and to nobody else.

Dr. O'Higgins

And Quirke was a party to it. Senator Quirke is not so small that he is not to be seen in a room. The Minister is holding a Punch and Judy show. Punch is to be produced while Judy is around the corner. Cooney is produced and Quirke is hidden. At least this much comes out. There had been three or four approaches to the Department between April and September, and on each occasion discouragement was given to them with regard to their prospects of increasing their quota of whiskey for export. In fact, a whole lot of difficulties were put before them. Even according to the statement now, difficulties were put in the way of the purchase of the distillery. There was no enthusiastic encouragement. But then the financial syndicate associated with Senator Quirke blows across the carpet into the Department.

Mr. Lemass

Is the Deputy standing over that? That is what he said last week.

Dr. O'Higgins

I am standing over the Minister's statement to-night. I want to be corrected if I am inaccurate. Cooney, plus Quirke, come along and then assurance is given that the export quota will be lifted from 4,000 to 8,000 gallons per annum. That is admitted by the Minister and it is on record. Prior to the appearance of Senator Quirke there was nothing but toughness and discouragement, rather than enthusiasm. That is the first point.

The second point: it is admitted by the Minister's colleagues that these particular deportees were wanted men and that they were entertained at Árus an Uachtaráin. That is one of the charges made by the Deputy and that is admitted now.

The third charge made by the Deputy was that this particular gentleman was only deported and another individual was apparently collected by Scotland Yard after a friend of the Government had given information. There had been a falling out in the group prior to the giving of that information.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Deputy know that?

Dr. O'Higgins

I am making a speech and going on record.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy's answer is that he does not know.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Deputy has not answered the Minister at all. I have too much contempt for the Minister's whole behaviour this evening. It is the behaviour of a cheap little bellicose bluffer.

The third allegation made by Deputy Flanagan has been found to be correct. Are we to take it as a perfectly normal thing that people of that character and reputation, with the police of two countries after them, should sail up to Árus an Uachtaráin and be entertained and have their names in the paper?

The fourth charge is in regard to a watch. The Minister told a story about a watch. I have no information beyond what I heard from the two sides of this House. Even on the Minister's statement, or statements, impartial Deputies will agree that there is something which should be inquired into. One of the extra things that should be inquired into is why a member of the Government—the leader's kettle-drummer on the left—showed such heat at the suggestion that 11 Deputies and Senators should inquire into the allegations made, deal with them, if proved, and repudiate them so that they would hurl back like a boomerang if found to be untrue——

Mr. Lemass

Would the Deputy be on the committee?

Dr. O'Higgins

Will the Minister keep quiet? These little, jack-in-the-box antics are always typical of the Minister when he has a bad case. When he has a bad case, he trys to bluff, to be offensive, to be brazen and even rude.

Mr. Lemass

That is something the Deputy would never be.

Dr. O'Higgins

I do not congratulate the Government on the individual they selected to make their case this evening. In spite of the provocation given by the impudent manner in which the Minister has addressed himself to this House to-night, I ask the Head of the Government to ignore the antics of the Tánaiste and to face up to his responsibilities. Amongst those responsibilities is that of keeping the name of this Parliament and country clean. If he faces up to that responsibility, he will establish this or some other type of tribunal to inquire in full into all details associated with that particular transaction.

Mr. Flanagan

I should like to congratulate Deputy Mulcahy on the motion which he has placed before the House to-night asking that a committee of this House be appointed publicly to investigate and report to the Dáil on the facts and circumstances connected with and surrounding any proposal made, or attempted to be made, at any time since 1st January, 1946, either to buy or sell Locke's Distillery, Kilbeggan, or any part of the property or business thereof. I am amazed and astonished at the antics and behaviour of the Tánaiste in this House to-night. He is a long way out if he believes that by shouting loudly across those benches or using threats that I shall have to go before a tribunal and that I will be on my oath he will seal my mouth or "cow" me so as to prevent me from making statements which I believe to be true. It is not the first time that his colleagues in the Cabinet, his Leader, the Taoiseach, or other responsible men from the far benches have endeavoured to seal my lips. Whether I am in this House for long or short, I will devote all my energy to trying to expose Government rackets, many of which are in existence to-day.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will deal with the matter before the House.

Mr. Flanagan

Many of them are well known to the general public. One of the most glaring, in my opinion, is the manner in which the sale of Locke's Distillery, Kilbeggan, was undertaken. I believe it was my duty as a Deputy of Dáil Eireann and my duty as a citizen, if I had reliable information at my disposal from sound, responsible people, to place it before this House and before the Government. If that information is true and correct, well and good—that is a matter to be decided by the committee or tribunal.

Mr. Lemass

Has the Deputy such information?

Mr. Flanagan

If the information I have at my disposal is wrong, well and good—that is a matter to be decided by the committee to be appointed to investigate the matter. That is a matter for which I take responsibility and I challenge the Tánaiste and Government to-night to appoint this committee asked for by Deputy Mulcahy. I can guarantee two witnesses—not one—who will contribute evidence which will take the smile off the Tánaiste's face.

Mr. Lemass

Their names, please?

Mr. Flanagan

Mr. Joseph Cooney, junior——

Mr. Lemass

"Junior"—when did he come into the picture?

Mr. Flanagan

And Mr. Joseph Cooney, senior, managing director of Locke's Distillery, Kilbeggan. There are two names. Perhaps the Tánaiste would like to get further names. Perhaps he will get further names if and when this committee is appointed to investigate the matter. I believe that the charges I made in the House on Wednesday night were received by every Deputy with amazement and horror. It was looked upon as if I were making statements of a fantastic nature to which there was neither beginning nor end.

In my opening remarks on last Wednesday night, and, previous to that, at Question Time, when I raised the question of the racket concerning the distillery at Kilbeggan, I made a few very important points which were reported both in the daily papers and in the Official Report. Even on this side of the House, members were inclined to doubt the accuracy of my statements. When I mentioned about these crooks of international fame, these racketeers and gangsters, dining with the President of the State and introduced in his dining-room to the President's wife, I was laughed and jeered at even by members of the Opposition. They believed that it would not be possible for the President of this State to stoop to the lowest depths of indecency—

Mr. MacEntee

There must be some limit to this sort of thing.

An Ceann Comhairle

Neither the Deputy nor any other Deputy may attack the President in this House. The Deputy must withdraw the statement that the President stooped to anything disgraceful.

Mr. Flanagan

By all means. I believe that the President and Mrs. Kelly were quite unconscious of the fact——

Mr. MacEntee

Why did you not say so?

Mr. Flanagan

It must be the secretarial staff of Árus an Uachtaráin which was to blame—those people who were responsible for allowing those international crooks to dine in Árus an Uachtaráin. Surely the secretarial staff at Árus an Uachtaráin——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now attacking civil servants.

Mr. Flanagan

I, certainly, do not know who they are.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy is accusing somebody he does not know.

Mr. Flanagan

Somebody was responsible for allowing those people into Árus an Uachtaráin.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must deal with the motion.

Mr. Flanagan

I am only endeavouring to point out the need for the inquiry and how true and accurate my statements made on Wednesday night were when I said these people were entertained at Árus an Uachtaráin. Even members on this side of the House were inclined to doubt it until the admission came from the Minister for Justice. He said that unfortunately those people did get into Árus an Uachtaráin. It was unfortunate that they got in but unfortunately they did make their way in there. Why not have as one of the terms of the reference of the committee to be appointed that they shall inquire as to who was responsible for the introduction, who was responsible for making the necessary arrangements to have those people entertained to tea at Árus an Uachtaráin? Surely, if citizens of an undesirable character, wanted by the police in a number of countries, can walk into this country and first and foremost select no less exalted person with whom to have tea than the President of the State and his wife I believe that a very good and useful purpose would be served by the establishment of the committee of inquiry asked for here to-night by the Leader of the Fine Gael Party. That was one of the accusations I made in this House which was admitted by the Government.

A second accusation, admitted by the Government, which even the members on this side of the House were inclined to doubt, was that representations were made to the Department of Industry and Commerce by a member of the Oireachtas who was a member of the Fianna Fáil Party. I refer to none other than Senator Quirke, who was acting in his official capacity as a representative of the firm of Stokes and Quirke. I accused the Senator of endeavouring to secure certain concessions for certain people, and to-night the Minister tells us that there were four callers to the Department of Industry and Commerce in connection with the sale of Locke's Distillery. However, none of the callers who came in connection with Locke's Distillery were welcomed with anything like the welcome which was accorded Senator Quirke on his arrival. The export licence for whiskey was increased from 4,000 to 8,000 gallons immediately on the mysterious appearance of Senator Quirke on the floor of the Department of Industry and Commerce in Kildare Street. An increase of 4,000 gallons of whiskey to be exported was granted because of the appearance of Senator Quirke, who was using his high office as a Senator to advance his interests as an auctioneer. Is that not the position with which we have been presented? Is that not the reason, A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, why the Government should not back out of an inquiry when such information has been placed at the disposal of this House and at the disposal of the people? That accounts for two accusations. I made a further accusation which was laughed at not alone by the Government but by some of my colleagues on this side of the House. I refer to the question of a presentation of a gold watch for the Taoiseach's son. That was hardly credited by members of this House. To-night we heard the Tánaiste giving us a cock-and-bull story about the manner in which the Taoiseach's son was to get that watch. He said Senator Quirke's sister was dangerously ill in a hospital——

Mr. Lemass

Leave her out of it.

Mr. Flanagan

A friend of Senator Quirke was dangerously ill in a hospital and this patient was placed under the very expert and good care of Dr. de Valera. Through the doctor's good offices and through the proper application of his medical advice this patient was restored to her normal good health.

Mr. McGrath

Do you doubt that?

Mr. Flanagan

As a mark of appreciation we have been told that Senator Quirke decided to make a present of a gold watch to the Taoiseach's son. I am putting it to this House, because certainly it will not go up this cuff, that if the Senator wanted to make a presentation had he not many other items with which to present the doctor? If he wanted a gold watch could he not have gone down to Benson's? Could he not have toured some of the very best high-standard jewellery establishments in this city? Could the Senator not have made inquiries as to whether he might secure a good up-to-date timepiece for the Taoiseach's son in return for the good service he had rendered in restoring his patient to her normal good health? Was it not a strange coincidence that in Mr. Eindiguer's presence he should spot a watch on his arm and say: "I would love a watch like that for the Taoiseach's son?" Would one not expect that Senator Quirke would go out and buy a watch instead of going into the details of the illness of his relative as he did with Mr. Eindiguer? If the Tánaiste's story goes down with certain members of this House it will not go down with me. There is a man in this building to-night who actually saw the watch, who actually had the watch in his hands and said: "That is too good a watch for the Taoiseach's son." That man is going to come forward to give evidence if the inquiry takes place.

Mr. Lemass

His name?

Mr. Flanagan

His name will be given at the opening session of the inquiry.

Mr. Lemass

Why not now?

Mr. Flanagan

At the opening session of the inquiry, if it is to be undertaken, this question of the watch for the Taoiseach's son will very carefully be gone into. But no person of proper or sane mind would believe for one moment the story surrounding the circumstances of the Senator getting this watch from Mr. Eindiguer to give to the Taoiseach's son. The words that were used, according to my informant, who will give his evidence on oath at the opening session of the tribunal——

Mr. Lemass

He certainly will not give it any other way.

Mr. Flanagan

No, and you will be there, my boy. According to my informant, the reason the watch was being given was for the purpose of a softening influence. I want that recorded in the Official Debates of this House. Therefore, is it not quite clear to the House, is it not quite clear to the country, is it not quite clear to every broadminded and honest citizen, the allegations I made in this House on last Wednesday night have been admitted by the Government not in one, two or three forms but in all forms. I hope that my colleagues on this side of the House are even now satisfied and convinced that if the Government succeeds in pulling wool over the eyes of members of the Opposition they will pull no wool over my eyes.

Mr. Donnellan

Hear, hear!

Mr. Flanagan

I have been accused in the daily papers and by members of this House of abusing my privilege as a Deputy by naming certain citizens. I should be long sorry, A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, to abuse my privilege as a Deputy of this House. I think, however, I have a duty to perform on behalf of the people who sent me here and on behalf of every broadminded and honest citizen in the country by lending a hand towards cleaning up. That is the very reason I have been compelled to name certain people here. That was the position when I rose on last Wednesday night to give the names of those people who were associated with the question of the sale of Locke's Distillery at Kilbeggan. We have even seen that in the very cagey corners in connection with this sale, even the solicitor, even the legal adviser, had political connections and political affiliations. We even saw that the auctioneer was a Fianna Fáil Senator. We can read between the lines there. We have heard the story about the presentation of a gold watch to the Taoiseach's son. We can, also, see the influence used at the Department of Industry and Commerce because when as I asked the Minister at Question Time to-day if a written application had been made to increase the export licence, he replied and said: "No". No written application was made to increase the export licence held by Locke's Distillery from 4,000 gallons to 8,000 gallons. If I were to go into the Minister's office and to say that there is a man in my constituency in serious difficulties because of lack of kerosene for his tractors and machines which are held up in the tillage field the first thing I would be asked by the Minister would be if the man had made written application and I would be told that if he had not done so he must do so before an allowance of kerosene could be granted to him. In this case, however, there was no question of "You must make written application". The Departmental red tape was completely cut.

The appearance of Senator Quirke turned red tape into action and immediately the export licence, without written application being made, was increased from 4,000 to 8,000 gallons. In every other case the Minister's Department insists on written application being made. I could name numerous cases for even the tiniest items that constituents would require— every Deputy in the House is aware of this as well as I am—in connection with which the first question asked by the civil servant is: "Has written application been made? Then it will be considered." There was no consideration necessary in this case. The mighty ghost of Fianna Fáil appeared in Kildare Street and an export licence for 4,000 extra gallons of whiskey was given. Surely when we see a member of the Oireachtas using his position as Senator to advance his interests as an auctioneer, it is something which stands for investigation and which should be investigated.

I believe that I have been of national service in raising this matter. I believe that the national service that I perform will not be completed until the results of an inquiry are made known. Senator Quirke has asked for the inquiry and would not we love to see that inquiry coming off to find out how this Mr. Sweeney got those people into Árus an Uachtaráin? He used his relationship with the President. He happens to be a nephew of the President.

Mr. Lemass

Of his wife. Why do you not tell the truth?

Mr. MacEntee

Is not he also a nephew of Deputy Mulcahy's?

General Mulcahy

Not in the wide earthly world.

Mr. Lemass

He is as much a relation of yours as he is of the President.

General Mulcahy

Do I understand that the Fianna Fáil Government is going to dictate how people will marry and where they will marry?

Mr. MacEntee

It is Deputy Flanagan who is doing that.

Mr. Flanagan

I am only pointing out to the Taoiseach, to the Tánaiste— the Minister for Local Government has no brains so it is no use pointing out anything to him—to the Chair, the manner in which a reception was arranged for those international crooks at Árus an Uachtaráin. That is something which should come before the inquiry for consideration. Deputy Dillon and other Deputies have made enquiries and have given information to the House concerning the activities of those aliens who came over here for the purpose of purchasing this distillery. One man's name was Sachael. I understand that since I raised this matter first in the House, on Wednesday night last, Sachael has gone from the country. There was no question of making an order to deport Sachael, but Sachael was just politely asked to leave.

Mr. Davin

He was put out.

Mr. Flanagan

Sachael was asked to leave. Representations were made to the Department of the Minister for Justice some time ago to extend the time limit for an order which the Minister was about to make at that time to deport him. I understand that the representations were made by Mr. Sachael's solicitor and I would be interested to know if that is Mr. Sweeney again, anxious to see that this undesirable alien, Sachael, was kept around the place.

Mr. MacEntee

Does the Deputy allege that Sachael could have been deported?

Mr. Dillon

If he could not, it would have been because you let him in without having any place to send him. It was no virtue in Sachael.

Mr. Flanagan

I say here and now that every alien like him should be deported.

Mr. MacEntee

But does the Deputy allege that he could have been deported and was not deported?

Mr. Flanagan

I say that the Minister for Justice had the question of his deportation under review some time ago. It was cancelled simply because it was understood that Sachael was about to sell his farm in Gort, in Deputy Beegan's constituency, and the moment the question of Locke's Distillery arose Mr. Sachael said: "I cancel the sale of my farm in Gort now because I want a nice country residence in Galway. I am going to be a director of the new distillery company". It did not materialise but it was very, very near it.

Mr. Donnellan

They may take Locke's down to Galway yet.

Mr. Flanagan

The Minister for Industry and Commerce was very much alarmed and annoyed by the way I got under his skin. The motion was presented by Deputy Mulcahy in a cool, calm, businesslike manner. I presented my case on last Wednesday night in a similar manner, and I am explaining the circumstances to-night in a spirit of good friendship and in the hope that it shall lead the Government to the speedy establishment of the inquiry and the adoption of General Mulcahy's motion. I am prepared to lend a hand and to co-operate with the Government in every way to expose rackets of this nature and to see that a speedy end is put to the racketeering that is going on and which probably will go on if somebody does not make an attempt to clear it up. Here is a statement the Minister for Industry and Commerce challenged me on. He asked me was I aware that there were 60,000 gallons of whiskey in Locke's Distillery.

Mr. MacEntee

Mature whiskey, he said.

Mr. Flanagan

Yes. I was perfectly well aware of it.

Mr. Lemass

That there is?

Mr. Flanagan

I am perfectly well aware of every drop of whiskey——

Mr. Dillon

"Whiskey", he said.

Mr. Flanagan

W-h-i-s-k-e-y—whiskey. The Minister for Local Government knows it well.

Mr. MacEntee

I know Kilbeggan whiskey very well.

Mr. Flanagan

And you know whiskey well.

Mr. MacEntee

I do, but I am asking do you know whether it was mature whiskey or not.

Mr. Dillon

Much the black marketeers would care whether it was mature or not. Old or young, they would sell it.

Mr. Flanagan

This is why I join with Deputy Mulcahy in demanding this inquiry. I believe that the Taoiseach will see fit to have this inquiry. I honestly, conscientiously and sincerely believe that on this occasion the Taoiseach is man enough to have the inquiry. I believe that the information that I got and have at my disposal is from sound, responsible people who are prepared to stand over it. One of those responsible citizens who is prepared to stand over his information has presented me with a memorandum of items which need investigation.

Mr. MacEntee

Who is the citizen?

Mr. Flanagan

Information has been placed at my disposal by one who is prepared to come forward and give evidence on oath.

Mr. MacEntee

Name him.

Mr. Flanagan

I will give you the name.

Mr. Bennett

There is no necessity.

Mr. Flanagan

Everything is above board. I want to clear up this thing. That is what I want, and the smile will be off his face by the time I am done with him. I will give him all the names he wants. Let him be cool and calm and let him not shout or shiver in his seat. I will give him all the information he needs. I have a hell of a lot more than he thinks. That is something for the Taoiseach to whistle about. I have received evidence from one who is prepared to give evidence at the inquiry. This person writes:—

"Evidence has come to light that behind the scenes the game was to sell whiskey in the black market in England or elsewhere and actually 60,000 had been offered to a firm in London at £11 per gallon who would have netted £660,000, out of which the purchase, lock, stock and barrel of Ireland's oldest distillery would be simply a matter of £305,000."

Mr. Lemass

How were they going to get the whiskey to London?

Mr. Flanagan

Does the Taoiseach or does the Minister believe that if we have a public-spirited citizen prepared to come forward on oath and prove evidence of this nature that the Government should refuse to hold an inquiry to investigate it? If the Government refuses to hold an inquiry to investigate a matter of this nature I believe the country will go completely into ruin, and that you will have nothing in this country but rackets and racketeers and that Eire will be turned into a gangsters' paradise.

I call on the Government and on the Taoiseach with all the force, eloquence and might that I can put into my speech to consider every word that has come from the lips of Deputy O'Higgins, Deputy Mulcahy, Deputy Dillon and myself and of those who have endeavoured to co-operate in having this racket exposed. I ask that the Government in their wisdom may see fit to accept the motion that has been so ably presented to the House by Deputy Mulcahy. The motion merely asks for an investigation and that the facts be made known. I sincerely hope and trust that the Government will do that on a careful consideration of the accusations that have been made and on the Government's own admission of the allegation I made here last Wednesday night. I am very pleased that the Minister for Justice, the responsible head in charge, has admitted that there was truth in the allegations that I have made in this House, because it certainly vindicates me. It clears me in the eyes of the people. I was not talking this time— as the Minister for Industry and Commerce always says I am—trash. There was no trash this time. They were solid facts. I was well briefed and properly briefed. This case of Locke's Distillery is only one of many to come. I want the Taoiseach and the Ministers of the Government responsible listening to me, to be expecting more and further, because it was brought out in the Ward inquiry—it was said here in this House and I am the Deputy who said it—that there was no difference between Dr. Ward and any of the front benchers on the Government. The only difference was that Dr. Ward was caught out and they are not caught out yet. That was the only difference.

Mr. Lemass

Is the Chair going to allow that?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask the Deputy to withdraw his general references to Ministers.

The Taoiseach

As one of my colleagues remarked as I stood up, this is evidently going to be a slander factory. There was an enquiry into the case of Dr. Ward. The result of that enquiry was to prove that he was not guilty of corruption in his public office. He was found guilty of not making a full disclosure of sales as a business man. Now we are told that there was corruption. It was implied that there was corruption. Every time that an election is in the offing we have this charge against the Government. We have a Deputy in this House pointing to the members of the Government and saying that every one of them is guilty of corruption. It is a lie.

Mr. Flanagan

It is a lie.

The Taoiseach

It is a lie.

Mr. Flanagan

On that point, I was made withdraw the word in this House.

The Taoiseach

I believe that word has been ruled out of order. It is a falsehood.

An Leas Cheann Comhairle

The word "lie" is not permitted to be used in the House.

The Taoiseach

If the Deputies who say that they are interested in the honour of our country and of this Parliament had presented this case in a reasonable manner as people would who are interested in that, and solely interested in it, I think there would have been no trouble. But there were by-elections on, and it was not sufficient to suggest that there was public anxiety about certain strangers who came into this country: it was necessary to suggest that they were brought in by the Government, and that the Government was responsible for everything they did.

Now, let us try, as calmly as we can, to unravel this thing and see exactly what is in it. In so far as there is any charge against the Government, it is right and proper that it should be inquired into. The moment charges of that sort are raised, the Government has to give an inquiry, inevitably. I say that every member of the House has a responsibility to see that these inquiries are held into the things that it is right for this House to inquire into. Is it suggested that if there is some individual, some shady individual engaged in some deal or other in the country, that the Government is responsible for that, that the Government is responsible for the character and conduct of every person who comes into the country? Of course, no Government could be responsible for that. The Tánaiste has pointed out that a certain man from Switzerland came in here, that he was introduced by Irish citizens and apparently they accepted him as a colleague in some business enterprise. It transpired from what appeared in the newspapers—this was the beginning as far as Government knowledge was concerned—that with this man who came in there was associated another man who was in some way suspect. The moment it became known that this man was in the company of a suspected person enquiries were set on foot.

The first thing, in fact, that was done was that the Minister for Justice rang me up and told me that it had appeared in the papers that certain gentlemen had been received by the President and that one of the persons in question was one about whose conduct the Department of Justice was not at all satisfied. I immediately made it my duty to go to the President and tell him so. It is suggested here by a Deputy that because certain people of that type did happen to visit the President that the President stooped down to do this. Is there no possibility that people can be mistaken? Is there no possibility that people of a shady character can be introduced? Is there no question of the President receiving these people in good faith? I myself receive hundreds of people in the course of the year. I have to ask myself: "Will I see them or will I not see them"? I generally try to get some information if I can. If a friend that I happen to know brings them along and I have no reason to be unduly suspicious, I see them, and very often the result of seeing them is valuable from the point of view of our country. Are we to take up the attitude that we are not going to be disturbed and that we are going to take the telephone off the rest for some particular period? I think that if we were to adopt that attitude it would generally be found that the very time during which you had made up your mind not to attend to a call was the time that somebody who should have been seen would have to go away. You could not possibly do business on that basis, and Deputy Dillon knows it quite well.

Mr. Dillon

Has he not a secretary?

The Taoiseach

Although the President's secretary is a civil servant, I say that, in a case like that, no member of the staff could have provided for it, and the Deputy knows that as well as I do. If somebody that the President knew introduced some people, do you think that a member of the staff could come along and tell the President that he was not to receive these people? The President is not in a position publicly to defend himself. It is my business to see that he is defended when his name is introduced, and it is my business to see that his staff, who are civil servants, are also defended. The only thing that can be said so far as the President is concerned is that these people did happen to find access to him. Of course, instead of taking the ordinary commonsense view of that, it is suggested that it was to make the deal easy. In other words, the suggestion is that the President was going to use his position to ask for special facilities for the people he had received.

Mr. Dillon

The Taoiseach must be aware that the secretary rang up the Press.

The Taoiseach

I have as much experience of secretaries as the Deputy, and no secretary could have said to the President in these circumstances: "You are not to receive these people." If a person who is related to the President makes a mistake, does not know the people he is dealing with and introduces them, I say that no member of the staff could have told the President: "You must not do that."

Mr. Dillon

Did they ring up the papers to announce it?

The Taoiseach

I know nothing about the papers. We have all sorts of details thrown across the House in order to cloud the real issue. The real issue, so far as the President is concerned, and I am more interested in that aspect of it than any other, is that when the President received these people I am perfectly certain, although I did not put such a question to him, that he knew nothing about the character of the people, good, bad or indifferent. They were introduced to him. I can only guess, because I did not ask the President the question, that these people were introduced by a person whom he knew. Under these circumstances, it is most unfair to suggest that the staff had any responsibility, unless the staff knew these people were wrong. If they did, then they would have a responsibility. Underlying it all is the suggestion that the President knew and that the staff knew things that were not known to them, things that were not even known to the Government, and which only became known to the Government by the attention of the Minister for Justice being called to one name.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister for Justice ordered the man out of the country.

The Taoiseach

How could the President know that?

Mr. Dillon

What is his secretariat there for but to protect him?

The Taoiseach

Do you want to suggest that the secretariat is to be informed of everything that the Minister for Justice does? How could any member of the secretariat be aware in advance that one of the people who were going to see the President was of a shady character?

Mr. Dillon

They should not have communicated it to the Press without asking somebody.

The Taoiseach

There is first an attempt to attack the President and then, when the President is being attacked, there is an attempt to attack the staff. Neither the President nor the staff could have been aware of the character of the individual whom the Minister for Justice went after.

Mr. Dillon

Senator Quirke knew.

The Taoiseach

Are we to have an inquiry into that? So far as the allegations against the President are concerned, what is it precisely we are to inquire into? The suggestion is that the President stooped to this, that he was going to use his influence with the Minister for Industry and Commerce to get some concession or other. Is there a single Deputy who believes that that is true? I do not think there is. But we are to have an inquiry into it. Well and good, we shall.

General Mulcahy

I do not think any Deputy made the suggestion.

The Taoiseach

I am pointing out what is the clear implication. Deputy Mulcahy can rise in a very calm and judicial way and make the case for this and then the people who come after him can make the suggestions.

General Mulcahy

They came before me.

The Taoiseach

Clearly, the suggestions have been that the President's office was going to be used with the President's knowledge for the purpose, as was suggested in another connection, of "softening the deal". I say we shall have an inquiry into that. But I want the members of the House and the people of the country to know that these are the suggestions that have been made and that there is not a single word of truth in the suggestion that the President was going to use his office or permit his office to be used for any improper purpose. The only thing that emerges from it is that certain people did find access to him, some of whom were of a shady character. The only thing that can be said in that whole connection is that the safeguards were not sufficient to prevent that, and I say that no safeguards can be devised which will completely and absolutely prevent that sort of thing.

Now let me come to the next point. It has been suggested that a proposed present to my son was to "soften the deal"; in other words, that I and my son were of such a character that we could, by the present of a watch to him, be induced to do what the President in the other connection was supposed to do, namely, use our influence to get the Minister for Industry and Commerce or somebody else to abuse his position and give certain concessions. Is there a single member of the House who believes that? Yet, that is the clear implication of the suggestion that has been made, and we are ourselves to set up an inquiry to inquire into just that sort of thing. The only reason we have to inquire into it is to make clear to the public the way that they are being abused.

The honour of this country is something which everyone of us ought to be jealous of. To seek to make it appear that the President of the State and Head of the Government are of such a type that they can be used to get concessions for strangers if they get some reward or other I think is damnable. I think the whole thing is such as to make it very hard for any decent person to remain in public life in this country, and that is what some of the people making these suggestions are aiming at—that we will not have any honourable or honest man going up to represent the people, because he can be attacked.

Then they say: "You can be cleared by an inquiry", but when you are cleared by an inquiry, then the result of the inquiry is forgotten. Dr. Ward was cleared, and the charges against him were found, by a tribunal, so far as his public office was concerned, to have been recklessly made. Is that part remembered? When people talk of Dr. Ward in public, do they remember that? No, they do not.

Mr. Flanagan

Why is he not back in the Custom House?

The Taoiseach

The point is that Dr. Ward did not make full records, that he did not, in regard to his private business transactions, make full records, and therefore did not have— in our view—a sufficiently high standard to continue in his public office.

Mr. Flanagan

And he was fired.

The Taoiseach

He was fired, but not for corruption. He was fired because the standard some business people will boast about was not high enough for us. We know perfectly well that the evasion of income-tax is not a thing a number of people hang their heads about, and, in the long run, when you examine the case against Dr. Ward, the most that can be suggested against him is that he was trying to evade some income-tax. That is the most.

Mr. Flanagan

It took you a long time to find it out.

General Mulcahy

On a point of order, we have the right to reply to this debate. I took merely a quarter of an hour in opening the discussion and the seconder of the motion has not spoken yet. I suggest that at least 20 minutes is the period we would expect to reply.

The Taoiseach

I am replying for the President, being the only person who can speak for him.

General Mulcahy

We expect to reply to this debate. We have a motion before the House and we reply to this debate.

Mr. Blowick

Before the Taoiseach resumes, if he is to resume, I should like to say a few words. I was not here last week when this matter arose and I must admit that I was completely at sea about the whole thing, but I have heard the two sides of the case to-night and would like to get time to say a few words. At the same time, I should like to hear the Taoiseach out to the end.

Mr. Morrissey

On Dr. Ward?

Mr. Blowick

On the whole case.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is not enough time to go round.

Mr. Blowick

I suggest that there ought to be enough time for such an important debate—if not to-night, to-morrow.

General Mulcahy

I endeavoured to have this debate carried on in a formal way, with adequate time for the discussion. The Government insisted that the debate would not begin earlier than 7 o'clock and that it would be finished to-night. We ask for permission to conclude on this motion and not be talked out.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy need have no fear. I do not want to talk anybody out.

General Mulcahy

We want to conclude the discussion on this motion.

The Taoiseach

I do not know what the rules of the House are—whether they would permit of an extension of the debate—but I am quite ready——

Mr. Dillon

Well you know them. No one knows them better.

The Taoiseach

I do not know them. I have not particularly studied the rules of the House. What I was going to say was that if the House could remain on, if it could be moved to extend the sitting for an hour or so, I am quite willing.

General Mulcahy

To extend it to to-morrow?

The Taoiseach

To extend it now.

General Mulcahy

You cannot extend the debate on a motion which is a contested motion after 10.30 p.m. If the Taoiseach will agree that this motion is not opposed and will be passed, the discussion can continue until 11 o'clock; but if the Government take up the attitude that they are going to oppose the motion, as is implied by the speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to-day, the debate must conclude at 10.30 p.m., and I submit that the seconder and I have the right to conclude the debate.

The Taoiseach

I think we could have it to-morrow, if that will do. I have no desire to burk this matter in any way.

General Mulcahy

I entirely agree that the debate can be carried over until to-morrow, but it is an awful pity that, when representations to the effect that a longer time for the discussion is necessary are made, the Government should deal with the matter in the way in which they have dealt with it.

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy was quite satisfied with the debate starting at 8 o'clock, and we started at 7 o'clock.

The Taoiseach

The point as to the length of the debate was not raised by Deputy Mulcahy, but let that pass. If it is agreed, we can have it to-morrow. The attitude of the Government with regard to this motion——

General Mulcahy

How long to-morrow?

Mr. Lemass

An hour.

General Mulcahy

Do I understand that it has been decided that the motion is to be carried on for an hour to-morrow?

Mr. Lemass

Yes.

General Mulcahy

I am not prepared to agree to this motion being carried over until to-morrow if there is to be any restriction on people who want to speak.

Mr. Norton

There are three Parties which have not yet spoken and they ought to get a chance.

Mr. Lemass

Two hours.

Mr. Norton

No.

Mr. Lemass

We can move to sit late to-morrow and let Deputies talk until Friday.

The Taoiseach

I want to state the Government's attitude towards this motion. On a previous occasion, when there were suggestions in the House with regard to inquiries, I pointed out that I did not believe at all that in matters of this sort a political committee was a proper committee. The only way in which anybody in the House who wants to be satisfied will be satisfied, or in which the country can be satisfied, is by setting up a judicial inquiry. We cannot have this matter settled on the basis of five or six people from one side and five or six people from the other. The only type of inquiry which will satisfy our people in any matter of this sort is a judicial inquiry.

Mr. Morrissey

With proper terms of reference.

The Taoiseach

With proper terms of reference. That is the inquiry we propose—we oppose this motion because it seeks to have an inquiry by a different type of tribunal—and, as on a previous occasion, we will bring in a motion proposing the setting up of a judicial tribunal.

Mr. Dillon

Who will be charged with responsibility for eliciting facts? The trouble about a judicial inquiry is that unless the Government charge somebody—not themselves but somebody—to elicit information, as in other inquiries of the kind, the judges find themselves with nobody to elicit facts.

The Taoiseach

I take it that the whole question raised here by the Tánaiste this evening was: What are the charges and who is going to stand behind them? He was trying to get an answer to that question the whole time. I take it that the Deputies here who made the charges will be prepared to be the accusers and that the tribunal, when set up, will, as on a previous occasion, arrange for the rest. We are anxious that the Deputies who made the insinuations will come forward and be the accusers and will bring forward the people who, they say, have the information.

It is suggested that these inquiries can be lightly undertaken. The fact is that, as the Opposition knows, the making of charges of this sort leaves no course open to the Government but to have an inquiry, and even if the Government thinks the charges are completely unfounded, is convinced that they are unfounded, we nevertheless have to set up these inquiries and have to go to all the expense involved, dragging in people from outside who may have no desire whatever to be involved and who may have no connection with it. All this thing must be done, unless there is some sense of responsibility.

Taking the two cases made up to the present, the President, first, is charged. I ask any Deputy if he thinks for one moment that the charge is true. Next, I am charged, because there is a charge against me. What would be the sense of speaking about the giving of a watch to my son, unless it was suggested that my son, getting the watch, was going to influence me, or that he or I was going to influence the Minister for Industry and Commerce, because I take it it was he who was to be influenced in this matter? I knew nothing whatever about it and my son knew nothing about it. I was just in the same position as I would be in if Deputy Flanagan came in here and said that somebody was going to give a diamond ring or a pearl necklace to my wife. Is there to be any decency whatever in public life?

The next suggestion made was that the Minister for Justice somehow connived at all this, that he was aware of these people and what they were doing, as if the Minister could know everything happening in the country, know every deal and transaction that was taking place. Deputy Flanagan says that Sachael was a friend of his and that this man Maximoe was sheltered in the house of a friend of the Minister. Is there any Deputy in the House who believes that for a moment? Yet, we are going to have a judicial inquiry to find out if that is true.

Then we have the charges against the Minister for Industry and Commerce. He has indicated to-night what the position was as far as he was concerned. Is it suggested by the Deputy who pointed his finger at every one of us and who said that the only trouble was that we were all crooks, but that we had not been found out, that the Minister for Industry and Commerce was influenced by these people, or that he knew that one or other of them was a crook, or that the people who were dealing with the matter in any way were crooks? So far as I understand, the people who were dealing with them in the first place were the secretary of the company which has the distillery for sale, and the company's solicitors, and the only thing about which the Minister was concerned was that the distillery should be carried on as an Irish business concern and that if there was to be an export business in connection with it, it would be of a limited amount. It is suggested that the amount was increased. Let that be inquired into.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister for Industry and Commerce told us that.

The Taoiseach

I say it was suggested that the amount was increased for some improper reason. Is that not the suggestion, that it was increased for an improper reason? I do not believe it, and I do not believe there is an honest Deputy in this House who believes it in his heart. Yet, because it suited certain people to make these allegations in public, whilst the by-elections were on, with the object of throwing all the mud they could, in the belief that some of it would stick, we are going to have a judicial inquiry. We are going to have judges spending their time. We are going to have a big expenditure of public money because it suited certain people to make these suggestions.

The suggestion is, as everybody knows, that there were two of these people in here who were apparently shady characters. They were pursued by the Minister for Justice and put out of the country. So far as the other one is concerned, nobody has been able so far to find anything against him except that he happened to be with these people. I do not know whether he was deceived by these people or not. I do not know enough about that, but it has been stated that Maximoe, or Smith as he was called when he came in here, came as an interpreter. One of them suggested that that was the capacity in which he came and, as far as I know, that is correct. Is it not possible that a businessman looking for an interpreter could come across a person of that sort and be deceived by him? Is that not the whole technique of crooks, to deceive honest men? As a rule, they are not able to deceive other people, but they sometimes deceive honest people. I, at any rate, until it is proved to the contrary—I may be completely wrong, as I know nothing about him—think it a more rational explanation that Maximoe deceived Eindiguer than that they were colleagues in an enterprise either to buy or sell in the black market a distillery or anything else. First of all, we were told quite definitely that 66,000 gallons was the amount concerned, but the Minister for Industry and Commerce said that that could not be the case because they had not that much mature whiskey and, secondly, they could not get permission to send it out.

Mr. Dillon

Or immature whiskey?

The Taoiseach

If Deputy Dillon thinks that there is some point about mature whiskey for black marketing, and that there was a good sale for immature spirits, I can tell him that they could not get out mature or immature spirits.

Mr. Dillon

It is wonderful what they could get out.

The Taoiseach

It is wonderful what the imagination of anybody who wants to think wrongly of another person can think of. It is wonderful what the imagination of certain people can do if they want to attribute wrong motives to other people.

Finally, there is an accusation against the Government of corruption, because that is the word that has been most used throughout the country by Deputies who want to blacken members of the Government, because they have not themselves a decent policy to put before the country. The only thing they can do in the country is to try to blacken the fame and the reputation of decent people.

Mr. Morrissey

To whom is the Taoiseach referring?

The Taoiseach

I say the people who went out during the election——

Mr. Blowick

Name them.

The Taoiseach

——suggested the same thing as they suggested in this House.

Mr. Morrissey

Who are they?

General Mulcahy

Who are they?

Mr. Lemass

Oh!

General Mulcahy

We can roar as well as the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

The Taoiseach

Deputies now want me to specify names, but anybody who is interested can look up the suggestions that have been made during the election campaign and discover who made them. I put my reputation against theirs, that there was this suggestion of corruption, and it was the fundamental suggestion the whole time —the suggestion made by Deputy Flanagan when he pointed his finger across at us and said that the only trouble was that most of us were crooks, but that we were not yet found out.

Mr. Morrissey

Do you remember the story about Lord Hailsham?

The Taoiseach

I know that the people of Ireland, despite all you may say, do not believe all this. The only thing you are doing by that campaign is lowering the whole standard of public life.

Mr. Morrissey

To whom is the Taoiseach referring?

The Taoiseach

I am referring to everybody who utilised this thing to throw mud.

Mr. Morrissey

Name one.

The Taoiseach

Is the Deputy running away? The people know the Deputies yonder. Do these Deputies now say that there has been no suggestion that there was corruption?

Mr. Morrissey

When the Taoiseach asks me am I running away——

Mr. Boland

Sit down.

Mr. Morrissey

I will not sit down. When the Taoiseach accuses me personally——

An Ceann Comhairle

Order!

Mr. Morrissey

This is a point that requires explanation. The Taoiseach has accused me of running away from the charges.

The Taoiseach

I say it is a matter of public knowledge that during this by-election campaign speakers on the opposite benches when they were speaking in public did suggest corruption against the Government.

Mr. Blowick

Name them.

Mr. Corish

Did you not do the same thing in 1932?

The Taoiseach

Then we may take it, and the Irish people may take it——

Mr. Blowick

I challenge you to give the names.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will have to name somebody if these interruptions continue.

The Taoiseach

I take it, then, that this charge of corruption, which I say was made, was not at all in the minds of the people who were speaking.

Mr. Morrissey

That is very slick. You are very innocent.

The Taoiseach

You cannot have it both ways. You are either charging us definitely with corruption or you are not. If you are charging us with corruption, let us know what it is. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Thursday, 30th October, at 3 p.m.