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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 1947

Vol. 108 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1947—Committee Stage.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Both when the Minister introduced his Supplementary Budget and when we discussed a Budget in the beginning of the year, very strong emphasis was laid on the fact that the increase in the rate of income-tax was imposing a very serious drain on family life. In the early part of the year, a considerable amount of argument and information was put before the Minister which indicated that it was absolutely necessary—if the income-tax rate was going to be at the rate then, not to talk at all of the rate to which it is going to be raised now—to give substantial additional relief to those who have the responsibility of maintaining and educating children. Now, when the Minister proposes to add an additional 6d. to the income-tax, the question raises itself strongly again.

We are opposed to any rise in income-tax that does not make a substantial additional allowance for people who have families to rear. It is evident every day that, so far from no effective steps being taken to reduce the cost of living, the cost of living is rising as every month passes. The very fact that the Government are forced to see about arranging another type of cost-of-living figure indicates that they are trying to side-step the very definite position of hardship that arises here. I ask the Minister again, before he asks us to accept this additional increase in income-tax, to face up to the question of those who have families to maintain. Unless it is shown to us that he intends to introduce proposals to relieve them, we shall vote against this increase.

I do not think there is anything I can say which would persuade Deputy Mulcahy to support me in the imposition of taxes to meet even one small part of the State outgoings he proposes from time to time.

It is not good enough for the Minister to answer glibly like that. We have shown, and are prepared to show, that we understand whether the situation is serious or not. We have shown that we are prepared to support the Government in any measure it is necessary to take to help to keep the finances of this country right or to help the people to weather the emergency. The Government are entirely shutting their eyes to the difficulties being experienced by people with families to maintain. The matter has been put very fully before the Minister and it is not sufficient for him to say glibly that this Party or any other Party is not prepared to face its responsibilities and impose taxation when necessary. It is generally considered that the imposition of this taxation is not necessary, but we particularly object, when it is being imposed, to the fact that no additional relief is being given to assist in the maintenance, rearing and education of children.

Question put.
The Committee divided:—Tá, 68; Níl, 26.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach. Cormac.
  • Brennan, Martin.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick (Co. Dublin).
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Daly, Francis J.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Connor, John S.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Rourke Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Friel, John.
  • Furlong, Walter.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kinane, Patrick.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Skinner, Leo B.
  • Spring, Daniel.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
  • Walsh, Laurence.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Eamonn.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Sheldon, William A. W.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kissane and Kennedy; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Bennett.
Motion declared carried.
Sections 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill."

I think it would be well if the Minister would again explain what, in fact, is the general effect of this section. When the Minister was dealing with this matter before he apparently appears to have slurred over the effect of the tax in such a way as to create surprise in the case of the people on whom the tax will fall. For instance, Financial Resolution No. 5 indicates that, in the case of wine not exceeding 25 degrees of proof spirit, the new tax is going to be 12/-, of wine exceeding 25 but not exceeding 30 degrees of proof spirit the tax is going to be £1, and of wine exceeding 30, but not exceeding 42 degrees of proof spirit that the tax is going to be £2 8s. It did not appear to the public, at any rate, that the new tax on the wine most in use in the country was going to be at the rate of 8/- per bottle. The report of the Revenue Commissioners for 1946 shows that only 5,087 gallons of wine not exceeding 25 degrees were imported and 136,566 gallons not exceeding 30 degrees, but that in the case of wine between 30 and 42 degrees proof spirit the import figure was 388,700 gallons, or something over 70 per cent. of the total import.

Some members of the licensed trade have felt, from the public complexion already given to the Minister's remarks, that they are now liable to be charged as profiteers by reason of the fact that the wine which the majority of them sell is now bearing a tax of 8/- per bottle-there being six bottles to the gallon-whereas the Minister's remarks would have led them to understand that the tax that was being imposed was substantially less than that. I think it would be well if the Minister cleared up for the public generally what the effect of this new tax is.

The Financial Resolution gave exactly the rates of tax which were being imposed in the Budget, and it is up to anybody affected to make his own calculations. I gave one or two sample cases—showing what was estimated would be the increased duty per bottle. As the Deputy has seen himself, the duties on wines are imposed per gallon.

The Minister did say—and this is what has given rise to the misunderstanding—in his Budget statement at column 394 of the Dáil Debates when dealing with the increased tax on wines that what was proposed was:

"Double the tax on wines so that the rate of duty on a bottle of light table wine will be about 2/- instead of l/- per bottle; on ordinary sherry, 3/4 instead of 1/8 per bottle; on champagne, 10/4 instead of 5/2 per bottle."

I have pointed out that the fact is that 70 per cent. of the ordinary wines imported are above 30 degrees, and that, in fact, the tax that is on a bottle of that particular wine would be 8/-. I think that the Minister, when he was dealing with the matter at all, could have avoided misunderstanding on the part of the public and of traders if he had commented over the whole range instead of commenting on the figure that bears the lower tax.

Question put and declared carried.
SECTION 6.
Question proposed: "That Section 6 stand part of the Bill."

There has been a certain amount of conflict between the opinion expressed by the Minister for Finance and the opinion expressed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce as to the intention of the proposals to increase the duties on spirits. The Minister in his statement on the Supplementary Budget said that this increase in tax would bring in an additional £935,000. I would like if he would refresh our minds as to what this tax will bring in in a full year. As I understand it, this £935,000, as an additional tax on spirits, will be got between this and the end of the financial year. I should like to know if the Minister expects to get this tax out of the consumers of spirits here, or whether it is the intention to close down to some extent on the distribution of spirits here with a view to exporting spirits abroad. The Minister is here proposing a very heavy tax on the consumer of spirits, and it is doubtful whether the figure mentioned will be arrived at. I think it is desirable that we should have cleared up for us what is the real intention of the proposal in Section 6.

I explained the intention of imposing this duty on spirits—that it was to collect the £935,000 which we estimated. The Minister for Industry and Commerce simply adverted to a statement made by some Deputy to the effect that the consumption of whiskey would drop, and he said that, in that event, there would be more whiskey to export. I expect there will be this £935,000 extra this year. In a full year, the figure estimated is £1,795,000 extra.

I should like to hear the Minister more fully on that. Does he anticipate that there is going to be any increase in the export of spirits from the country?

I should like to say a word on this. From 1938 up to the present, the duty increase on spirits has been 88.9 per cent., while the duty increase on beer has been 111 per cent. I want to suggest to the Minister that the consumers of spirits here belong to a class than can afford to pay. They will not feel the extra amount put on them as much as the ordinary working man who consumes beer. I think this tax should have been put the other way round, and that there should be a greater percentage increase on spirits than on the ordinary pint of stout. I suggest to the Minister that, even now, he ought to increase the duty on spirits and reduce the duty on beer.

We hope to hear Deputy Corry in full tongue when we come to the duty on beer. He will not find anybody in the House to disagree with him that the duty on beer is a severe infliction not only on the ordinary people of this country but on the traders who are distributing beer.

We are on spirits now.

We are, Sir, and I sincerely hope that we shall hear Deputy Corry's voice equally loudly and at greater length when it comes to beer as we have heard him here now on spirits.

Deputy Corry intervened on the question of the tax on spirits and, as part of his intervention, I would be glad if he would put it into some kind of better perspective than he has put it at the moment, or that his Minister has put it. For what reason has the tax on spirits been increased by 88 per cent. in the last few years? That is the question I would like to ask the Minister and Deputy Corry to answer. There would seem to me to be no answer to it unless the Minister and Deputy Corry take up the attitude that the condition of this country has come to such a pass that it is only the better classes who can afford to have or who ought to have a "sip" of whiskey. I do not think he will find many of his constituents who will entirely agree with him on that.

I do not agree with him. I am opposed to this increase in the tax on whiskey. I think it is an outrage that in the last few years it should have been found necessary to increase the tax on spirits to such an extent, particularly in our present circumstances when the Government has made no attempt whatsoever to reduce the general cost of government. It is a deplorable step that the Government in a lazy kind of way should now turn to the glass of whiskey in order to get another £935,000—not in a year but in five months out of this year. We would, I think, like to hear a little more from Deputy Corry on that.

Generally speaking, with regard to these new impositions upon the people, we have yet to hear a case made on the Government Front Bench as to why the gigantic taxation levied off the country at the present moment has got to be still further increased, whether by a tax on property, or on spirits, or an increase in income-tax, or the tax on beer, or the tax on motor cars.

We are confined to spirits here.

I am saying that I have not yet heard any case made why there should be an increase levied on any commodity. It has become popular now to regard whiskey as the beverage of the affluent, just as heretofore champagne was regarded as the beverage of the well-to-do. The crushing weight of taxation imposed on spirits in Budget after Budget has put or is putting spirits completely out of the reach of the person of moderate means. I think every decent person in the country deplores intemperance. I think the members of the licensed trade as a community and as an organised body deplore intemperance more than any other section because it interferes with their business and the amenities of their premises, etc. I heard predecessors of the Minister, speaking from that same bench, when they were greater advocates for an even higher tax on whiskey, pointing out that taxing spirits too highly in any country had very dangerous repercussions and that the dearer you made spirits the more you provoked the tendency to illicit distilling and the more you drove people towards drinks such as mountain-made poteen, "Red Biddy " and all such beverages as drive human beings into frenzied lunatic animals.

The present degree of intemperance in this country, because of the price of alcohol, is due in large measure to the amount of poisonous substances sold to ignorant people, particularly in large congregations such as immense fairs and that kind of gathering. The direct result of imposing too heavy a tax on alcoholic beverages which tends to put them out of the financial reach of the many is to encourage poisonous, medicated, dangerous substitutes. That has been discovered in more countries than this. The deplorable scenes that have taken place in some parts of the country are entirely due to the imbibing of poisonous substitutes which immediately and dangerously affect the human brain.

We should have some consistency in Government policy. We had that announced on one occasion, and then a successor comes along and brushes everything aside and says: "In half a year, or less, I am going to take an extra million pounds off whiskey—no matter what the result may be..." I am arguing this point very, very seriously. Illicit distilling and the sale of crude immature alcohol, with the medication of such things as methylated spirits, are the most abhorrent practices that could grow up in any civilised country. That is the natural result when you put a gigantic tax on beverages produced under State control and of known alcoholic strength so that the person indulging knows the exact strength and, if he is a wise man, knows his own measure. That is the result when you replace those by dangerous so-called alcoholic refreshments a small thimbleful of which may turn a man into a raging lunatic. Any legislation that brings about that state of affairs should be sternly opposed.

A modern idea seems to have grown up, because of the crushing weight of taxation, that whiskey or spirits is not a proper drink for the poorer person. That is a most undemocratic viewpoint. The elderly poor person is entitled to a small stimulant just as much as the wealthy person. The small occasional stimulant for the poor person ought never to be regarded as a luxury or as an evil. When the situation arises where the small stimulant becomes prohibited, because of price, and where a bulky commodity replaces it in order to carry as much stimulant, that is highly dangerous.

It is true, as Deputy Corry has said, that porter and stout have become the drink of the poor and that spirits have become the drink of the wealthy. That has come about because of the repeated impositions. But we are now reaching a point where even stout and porter can no longer be regarded as the drink of the poor. They can only be bought to-day by the comparatively comfortable, well-to-do people. Once a pint breaks into the second shilling I do not think it can be any longer regarded as the beverage of the poor. The result will be that we shall drive them more and more in the direction of these highly dangerous, inflammable, unhealthy, medicated substitutes.

I do not know where Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy O'Higgins spend their time. Deputy Mulcahy was down in Tipperary in the recent byelection. If he has any interest in his constituency he ought to know what the condition of the harvest is there this year. He ought to know that where last year you had eight barrels to the acre there are only four barrels this. year, and that if bread is to be found for the people of this country from now until next October some 200,000 tons of wheat, which was grown in this country last year, will have to be bought abroad this year at whatever price it costs. Deputy Mulcahy talks about the price of Government. Deputy Mulcahy, at a general election a few years ago, was endeavouring to drive up the cost of Government by paying the civil servants more. That, however, has. nothing to do with the matter under discussion at the moment. I have given the real reason why this money must be found.

In order to find bread for the people of this country from now till next October. That is why. With regard to the argument about stout, Deputy Anthony is the only one here at the moment representing Cork. Deputy Anthony should know what is in "The Hayloft".

I have not been in it.

It is a pleasure in store for you. That is where what they call "Atomic Bombs" are served at 4/- each and only two are served to any one person at a time. In this city you can get what is called "A Cat's Whisker" for 3/9. The buyers of these do not care whether there is a bob extra put on to them or not. They are a class which can bear it. If my figures are correct, I am suggesting to the Minister that it is unfair that the duty on spirits should be increased only by 88 per cent., while the duty on beer is increased by 111 per cent. My plea is not for the civil servant with £10 per week; it is for the 50/- a week man whose only pleasure is his plug of tobacco and his pint on a Sunday. That is all he can afford.

Not as many as Deputy Mulcahy thinks they can take in Tipperary. Deputy Mulcahy was very careful not to suggest any other way in which this money that must be found for bread can be found. He was very careful not to suggest that something extra should be got from the men who can afford it and less taken from those who cannot afford it. That is why I am suggesting to the Minister that, even at this late stage, he would be well advised to increase the duty on spirits and reduce the duty on beer accordingly. That is the plea I make.

It is very difficult to follow Deputy Corry into the world of percentages and perhaps we might get away from that for a moment. At present the price of a glass of whiskey is 2/6 and, if Section 6 is passed, 1/7½ of that will be taxation. I should like to know from Deputy Corry how much he thinks that 1/7½ should be increased in terms of pence, forgetting about percentages. I should also like to know in what way the question of bread comes into it. If I understand Deputy Corry, he suggests that the proceeds of this tax will be sent abroad for the purchase of wheat or flour. That develops a new line as to what this tax is for and I should like to have a little more explanation of it. If 1/7½ of the 2/6 for a glass of whiskey at present represents tax, I should like to know what the Minister and Deputy Corry think it should be. There should be also further enlightenment as to how this additional taxation will will be used to bring an increased supply of wheat and flour into the country.

There is no good trying to educate you.

Question put.
The Committee divi ded: Tá, 59; Níl, 39.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Martin.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick (Co. Dublin).
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Daly, Francis J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Friel, John.
  • Furlong, Walter.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • McCann, John.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Connor, John S.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Skinner, Leo B.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
  • Walsh, Laurence.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard S.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Heskin, Denis.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Larkin, James.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Coogan, Eamonn.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Davin, William.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
  • Spring, Daniel.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kissane and Kennedy; Níl, Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 7.
Question proposed: "That Section 7 stand part of the Bill."

On this section, I would urge on the Minister the advisability, even if it is necessary to impose these heavy new duties, to make a discrimination between one kind of tobacco and another. There may be a case made for the tax on tobacco which is slightly different from the case made in respect of the other taxes in so far as tobacco is mainly bought in dollar countries. The necessity for economy on such type of expenditure is, I think, obvious and apparent to all, but the incidence of these heavy taxes on the solid plug tobaccos, the type of tobacco enjoyed by the very poorest members of the community, makes it in my opinion, nothing short of a brutal tax. There is no use in the Minister or anybody else saying that tobacco is a luxury, that if anybody wants to avoid or evade the tax, he can give up smoking. To the poorer classes, tobacco is not a luxury. It is the only little form of comfort they have in their lives. The imposition of this tax on plug tobaccos is, I think, unjustifiable. We have not reached such a desperate plight in the affairs of this country that the only source we can turn to for revenue, is that little comfort in the lives of the poorest members of the community.

I remember the Minister leading a frenzied army up and down this country, he was so shocked and outraged at the very idea, in really terrible times when the State might be described as being on the verge of bankruptcy, of any Government in any set of circumstances, taking a shilling a week from old age pensioners. In this section and in the next section at least one shilling a week is being stolen out of the trousers pockets or the purses of the average old age pensioners.

I think one of the most offensive remarks that ever was directed at that unfortunate class, whose only little bit of comfort is the pipe, was the Minister's glib remark that if they do not like the tax they can give up smoking. There are a number of things that the Minister likes and it would not be just quite fair to him for Parliament to say: "Let him give them up." Parliament gave the Minister a very substantial increase so that he could continue to enjoy the things he likes. I am making a distinction between cigarette tobacco and expensive blends and mixtures and the hard plug tobacco. I think there is a reasonable and humane case for exempting the hard plug tobacco which is smoked by the poorest people in the country.

I should like Deputy O'Higgins to know that I did not say that people who do not want to pay this tax should give up smoking. What I said was that if they did not want to pay any more tax, that if they wanted to spend the same amount of money on tobacco in the week, they could smoke five pipes or five cigarettes instead of six. I do not want to go into the whole Second Reading debate on this or any other section of the Finance Bill. We discussed the necessity for this taxation on the Financial Resolutions and again on the Second Reading of this Bill. It was not introduced for fun or to impose a hardship on the smoker or on the person who takes a drink of whiskey or anything else, but because of the necessity to gather money in order to reduce the price of certain essentials such as bread, sugar and tea. That is the reason why this extra taxation was put on tobacco, including hard plug. Already we are giving a rebate of 2d. an ounce on hard plug.

The imposition of this tax is, in my opinion, and in the opinion of the Party to which I belong, an outrage on the poorer sections of the community. Those who are inflicting this imposition on the poor seem to have no sympathy and to be out of touch with that particular section of the people. They do not seem to realise the pleasure derived by the older sections of the community from their pipes. In my experience the one pleasure the working man has is his pipe or his pint of porter. The poorer sections have no holidays—there are no seaside resorts for them. Their only pleasure is the pipe or an odd drink; and when they are working in the fields or on the roads they enjoy a smoke. The pipe is the one and only pleasure of the poor.

I think it shows a great lack of understanding of the requirements of those people to impose a tax of this sort upon them. In my early days plug tobacco sold at the rate of 6½d. for two ounces and now it costs 3/11. That price is beyond the reach of the poorer sections. Some time ago there was a little increase given to old age pensioners—2/6 a head. That is now taken away from them. It is definitely the most iniquitous imposition ever put forward in this House and it is most unpopular. I ask the Government to withdraw it and to find the money in some other way.

The Minister told us that if the people will take only five pipes or five whiffs instead of six they can defeat the tax. He knows that that will not happen. He budgets on the certainty that it will not happen. If it happened he would not get his revenue. He hopes to get £1,960,000 in the half year. I do not think that the enormity of this tax has been fully realised. It will mean £4,000,000 in the full year.

From speeches I listened to from different Ministers for Finance I was given to understand that what is called the tobacco tax is the most buoyant of the lot and it brings in the most revenue. On top of the amount of money that smokers ordinarily give to the revenue we are now adding nearly £4,000,000 in a full year. Deputy Halliden's phrase is very mild. He said that it is an iniquitous tax.

The Minister must know that human effort is called forth in the way in which it is required in the matter of production not merely by the wage a man gets to supply himself and his family with necessaries, but by giving certain incentives to him to work. The incentives the poor have are: (1) drink, (2) smoking, and (3) something in the nature of entertainment. Some people go to play football matches and some go to see them. At higher levels people go to play or see other games. People who have not that outdoor viewpoint go to enjoy entertainment such as is provided by the cinema and other types of entertainment in the evening.

All the incentives there are tending towards greater production, all the incentives that help people to put forward greater human effort in order to get a greater store of goods, which is a necessity in this country at the moment, are being clamped down upon by the Minister.

When I came into the House Deputy Corry was remarking that nobody had shown any way in which this money can be saved. I want to show one way. The Minister's excuse for this tax is that the Government want to reduce the price of bread, butter and tea and the only way out is to tax semi-necessaries—their object is not to relieve taxation, but to prevent the price of certain commodities rising to too high a point. Hence we get these taxes.

We have on other occasions pointed out one way of saving millions. The Army used to be run at £1? millions. It was graded down to £1,160,000, but the average was about £1? millions and it is now £4,500,000. There are £3,000,000 which could be saved by bringing the Army down to a proper level and bringing down Army charges to a level which the State can bear. At the time when we were imposing £1? millions on the State for the Army, we were told that we only required the Army because of the discontent in the country caused by the fact that our gallant Republicans were being kept from attaining their objectives, and that when the Fianna Fáil Party came into power those objectives would be obtained and there would be no need for such an Army. The Republicans have obtained power but the discontent is apparently now such that it is necessary to spend £4,500,000 on the Army while £1? millions was sufficient for us. By reducing the Army, the tax on beer, tobacco and entertainments could be completely done away with. If the Minister wants other suggestions we can give them to him on the Estimates, but that is the biggest charge and he should reconsider bringing down our defence forces and saving millions of money.

I do not think that anybody or any Deputy in this House feels that the tax on tobacco is something which should not be avoided if it could be avoided, but when one listens to the arguments of the Opposition one sees quite clearly the fallacies in them.

Deputy O'Higgins started by saying that when the shilling was taken off the old age pensioners by the Cumann na nGael Government the Minister for Finance was in the front of the tempest howling it down, Does Deputy O'Higgins realise what that meant to the old age pensioner in comparison with what is now being done? At that particular time when an old age pensioner who was living entirely on the 10/- a week lost that 1/- he lost more than he would now lose by the tax on tobacco.

Deputy McGilligan says rubbish, but I say that the old age pensioner was losing one-tenth of his income and, as many old age pensioners did not enjoy the full ten shillings, the loss of a shilling meant still more. I say—and I think it will stand examination—that when the Government took a shilling off the income of the old age pensioner they did more harm than we are doing by increasing the tax on tobacco.

Before the tax was put on what was the pension worth?

Side by side with the tax on tobacco we are giving other benefits to the same pensioner. We are giving him a subsidy on bread and on sugar. We are giving him, and we have given him year after year, certain other benefits. The Opposition seems to forget when Deputy McGilligan is talking about the cost of the Army, the high grant necessary to keep it up. Deputy McGilligan compares the cost of the army with the £1? millions which it formerly cost, but does he consider what each member of the Army gets by way of pay as compared with when the cost of the Army was £1? millions? He will find that the average cost per head of the soldiers, the average cost of the officers, the cost of materials and the food they eat is to-day far higher than at the time which Deputy O'Higgins described as a period of such dire distress that only for the shilling taken off the old age pensioners the country would have fallen into ruin.

If the soldiers' food has gone up, so has the pensioners'.

And that is the reason why subsidies were introduced to bring it down. Does not Deputy McGilligan realise the fact that we have to subsidise certain foods because we recognise that their prices have gone higher than certain people can afford to pay.

They have gone nearly double.

What is the price of bread compared with in 1931?

More than double, but I will accept your statement.

The subsidised price of bread is not more than double the 1931 price and if any Deputy feels that this is wrong let him see the figures. Somebody in the House must know the price of bread in 1931 and the price to-day to the old age pensioners.

I am not enamoured of the idea of having to impose extra taxation.

You will vote for it though.

I will vote for it because I have satisfied myself that under the conditions of to-day, what I described last week as a make-shift Budget had to be brought in in view of the uncertain value of the £ from day to day.

We cannot control the £.

If we had our own currency we might have some control over where it could be stabilised.

That is right.

Let us face the thing openly and frankly. Deputy Halliden said that the price of the 2 oz. of tobacco was 3/11.

It used to be 6½d.

A few years ago.

Say in 1931 then. I will go so far with the Deputy. But are we taking two ounces a week off the old age pensioner by putting on this tax? The one shilling that was taken off the old age pensioner meant two ounces or probably all his tobacco.

Make the tax higher and take nothing off.

Deputy Briscoe appealed to us to face the position openly but as a man who should understand figures he does not seem to have studied both sides of the balance sheet in regard to this Budget. The Minister, in introducing the Budget, suggested that immediately the Budget came into operation the cost of living would drop 13 points and bring us back to the figure at which the cost-of-living index stood in mid-May of this year. Does Deputy Briscoe assert——

I heard the reference to the 13 points. It was in relation to certain articles which were regarded in the cost-of-living-index.

The Taoiseach made it clear to those who understood the English language that prices would go back to the level of mid-May this year.

That was the highest figure ever.

Will Deputy Briscoe ask his wife or his housekeeper or whoever buys the essential commodities for his household whether that is the truth?

I understood that we were discussing tobacco.

Will tobacco bring in £2,500,000 as a help to bring back the cost of living to the mid-May level? Does Deputy Briscoe know that since the Budget was introduced, the cost of soap, milk, candles and potatoes has gone up in many constituencies including the constituency which he represents? How can Deputy Briscoe, who is a man who should understand figures, persuade us and his constituency that the cost of living has gone down by 13 points when it has gone up since the Budget was introduced?

I did not say that.

I enthusiastically support Deputy Briscoe when he describes this Budget as a makeshift Budget. I was inclined to look on it as a hairshirt Budget——

For other people.

——but the Deputy's description is even better. It is ridiculous for Deputy Briscoe to talk about old age pensions and about the time they were reduced to 9/-, because we are dealing with a situation in which the old age pension stands at 6/6 per week, in actual money value, and this increased tax imposed upon the old age pensioner must be taken out of that 6/6.

Does the Deputy include in that all the supplementary items he gets?

If you go back to mid-May, it was 6/3.

I thought I was looking at Deputy Cogan and not Deputy McGilligan when I asked the question.

This makeshift principle seems to apply to and to influence every aspect of Government policy. Everything they do is a makeshift arrangement to carry them on——

This refers to tobacco.

——and this duty is in line with that attitude of mind. I feel that we could have avoided imposing this tax if the Government had given some attention to the various proposals submitted to them from this side of the House. The Army has been mentioned. A saving of £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 per annum could be effected there.

And then we have the navy, that beautiful navy. What is the purpose of that navy?

This is not the time to inquire.

We were asked where we were to save money.

In this debate?

We were asked by Deputies.

We could effect some saving by eliminating, or drastically reducing, say, that navy, but, as it is so small, it would perhaps be difficult to reduce it. The main purpose of that navy, so far as I can see, is to provide a background for the Taoiseach when he goes around looking for Ireland's eye. We have, then, the suggestion that the ordinary people can avoid this duty by reducing their consumption of tobacco.

All that was discussed on the Second Reading. Does the Deputy think that every section should give rise to a Second Stage debate?

No, but that suggestion was made by the Minister for Finance to-day, that the pipe smoker could be satisfied with five pipes of tobacco instead of six and the cigarette smoker with five cigarettes instead of six. I want to reply to that point and to say that it is an insult to the ordinary workingman to suggest that way out of his difficulties. Other ways have been given to the better-paid sections of the community. They have been allowed to increase their incomes to meet these increases in taxation.

The Minister himself has secured an increase in order to meet that increased taxation, but the man most severely hit by these increased taxes, the man who is hit even more severely than the old age pensioner, is the ordinary manual worker, the man who has to be out early in the cold of the morning to do manual work in the fields, on the roads or in the factory. To suggest that that man can cut down his allowance of tobacco is a sheer insult to the intelligence of this House.

The struggle for existence has been so keen for a number of years that the workingman, the small farmer, and the whole range of people with small incomes, have been cutting their tobacco allowance to the barest minimum. If it were possible for them to economise still further, they would be doing so, but the Minister knows that it is impossible for them to economise, because he is budgeting to get a very considerable amount of revenue from this duty. He is assuming that the people will smoke the same quantity as heretofore. I should like to ask the Minister—many people are asking the question and it might be as well if he replied to it here and now—if the British Government, in the course of their discussions with him, asked him to impose these increased taxes. It may be that they did not. It may be merely a stupid idea of his own, but it would be no harm to have that question answered.

Some time ago, we had the Taoiseach here expressing his concern about the difficulties of expanding production. This certainly will not help to induce the worker to put his best into the work of production. The Taoiseach talked about incentives. The worker to give of his best must be contented and must have incentives to work hard and he is surely entitled to something more than the bare necessaries of life. The luxuries he has been able to provide for himself are very limited and one of the luxuries which he values very highly is his smoke. Notwithstanding the Taoiseach's concern for incentives to produce and to work harder, here we have something which is going to have a depressing effect, so far as the worker's output is concerned. The Minister has shown very clearly that, notwithstanding his contention that a man need not smoke any greater quantity, that he can have five smokes where he formerly had six, he anticipates that that will not happen, judging by his estimate of what he will get from this increased impost.

What does this mean to the consumer? What is the total amount taken in respect of tobacco? In the Budget Statement of this year, we were told that last year the Minister had collected £11,500,000 from tobacco. In that Budget, he increased the imposition on tobacco by £3,000,000, making the amount £14,500,000, and now, for five months, he is imposing an increase which represents practically £2,000,000. That figure may be more than doubled for the 12 months, which means a total of £18,500,000 which the people who enjoy a smoke have to pay, on the assumption made by the Minister that consumption will not fall. What does that mean per individual? It means, on the basis of 80 per cent. of the men and 60 per cent. of the women being smokers, approximately 1,250,000 consumers. It is quite simple to calculate the average tax paid on tobacco per individual. It means on average that they pay in taxation alone for tobacco something over £15 per head. That is on average—taking the light and heavy smoker. If a man is a more than moderate smoker, he pays at least £20, and possibly £25, in tax. Then, we wonder why there is difficulty in inducing the worker to work harder and be contented with his lot. The Minister would have to agree, as would the Government, that, having regard to the very few luxuries we have in this country, this is, if we call it a luxury at all, an essential luxury. No matter where we found the money, an effort should have been made to find it elsewhere. If the worker cannot provide himself here with the few luxuries which he regards as essential to the enjoyment of life, then he will go elsewhere. If he cannot get his smokes here, he will growl and grumble and he will not give of his best. It is obvious that the Minister has not taken into account those aspects of the matter. I think that the Minister has not at any time been honest about this matter. It is an effort to cut down imports because we overlooked the fact that our export trade was a very valuable asset. We have an adverse trade balance of about £70,000,000 now. One of the things that have resulted from the London talks is that we must cut down our imports. This is an effort to cut down our imports and not an effort to help the housewife. That is the situation to which Fianna Fáil policy has brought this country.

Deputy Briscoe has challenged my figure in respect of the Army. Take 1935-6, when the Army was not running at £1? millions, which I said was the average, but at £1,500,000. The pay of officers, noncommissioned officers, cadets and men was £500,000. I am doubling that. That is £1,000,000. I put that extra £500,000 to the £1,500,000. The cost to the State was £2,000,000. The personnel are not getting double the 1935-6 rates. The cost of the human personnel——

Take the 1931 figure.

That figure is still lower and they are not getting double the 1931 pay. I took the cost when it was running at £1? millions, but take it at £1,500,000 Add £500,000 and that gives us £2,000,000. The cost at present is about £4,500,000, so that there is £2,500,000 to be saved there without touching the pay of the personnel. There is a pocket of £2,500,000 in which the Minister can plunge his hand if he wants to get moneys to provide subsidies for bread and sugar and other things. Deputy Davin is right. The best the Minister can do with these foolish subsidies is to bring the cost-of-living figure back to what it was last May, when it reached the highest point it ever reached in this country.

The old age pensioner has been dragged into this debate. He is not in the foreground of the picture. But he wants his human needs satisfied in a particular way. The man I was talking about was the man who wants an incentive to work, who has not reached the age at which he would qualify for the old age pension. But the old age pensioner does show this matter up in a strong light. On the 1930-31 cost of living, the £ was worth internally 27/6. Let us say 27/-. Ten shillings were, accordingly, worth 13/6. The old age pension recently amounted to 10/-. To that, 2/6 was added and a voucher was taken away, but we need not think of that at the moment. That sum of 12/6, nominal, buys what 6/3 bought before the war, so that the old age pensioner is reduced from 13/6 to 6/3 on commodities in which tobacco is not included.

The old age pensioner, as we all know, did get a smoke now and again out of what he could save from the 13/6 in the old days, or 6/3 nowadays. How much can he save out of that sum for smoking now and how much more will he have to save to get a smoke at the new price? That is what we are up against. I wish that in this debate we could go into the point raised by Deputy Briscoe now and which was raised previously—the control of our £. It has been brought to his realisation that we do not control our own £. Who is responsible for that—the Minister for Finance?

I am not responsible for the Central Bank Act.

That does not arise now.

It may arise on the Fifth Stage but we might have a preliminary run at it now. I had nothing to do with the Central Bank Bill.

You had with an Act before that.

I am a little bi scared about the views I have expressed regarding control of the £ when I see the acute, financial mind of Deputy Briscoe wandering in the same direction, I begin to suspect something. I tried to urge on the Minister that he should take steps to control the £ and he refused to do so. The result is that we are having not our own inflation, but British inflation and we cannot prevent it because the Government which Deputy Briscoe supports did not take action when occasion arose.

The policy to which Deputy McGilligan has referred is old enough, as our policy, to be adopted with safety by the Government Party, which likes to adopt our policies about 15 or 20 years after they are promulgated. The policy of economy of which Deputy McGilligan has been speaking is almost 20 years old. When the 10th Assembly of the League of Nations met in Geneva, in September, 1929, Deputy McGilligan dealt with this point. In the report made to the Oireachtas by the Irish delegates to that Assembly, we find this short quotation from a speech by Deputy McGilligan before the General Assembly:—

"Five years ago we had, comparatively speaking, made a considerable decrease in the armaments of the Irish Free State and had reached a position of something approaching normality. Since then, however, we have further reduced our annual expenditure on arms from about £2,800,000 to less than £1,500,000. When I mention that our expenditure on education now amounts to over £4,500,000 a year and to a single branch of social service, namely, provision for old age pensions, our State contribution is in the region of £3,000,000, it will help to place in true perspective the present provision of £1,500,000 for all purposes of national defence. I have little doubt that, from the technical point of view, excellent arguments could have been advanced against these reductions but the feeling that influenced our decision was that money urgently required to develop agricultural and other industries should not be squandered on arms."

The moneys which the Minister is now proposing to take from the people are fairly urgently required to maintain what was their old standard of living. This money is urgently required by people who are in difficult circumstances and have great problems to face. We are squandering money on arms at a time when nobody has attempted to solve the technical problem that arises with regard to arms.

We want an Army of a particular size. The country is not providing it. More than that, we are told by the Government—and we do not blame them—that they do not know how to equip their Army because the problem involved in equipping armies to meet conditions of warfare in the future has hardly been examined at all. The case for saving unnecessary expenditure on Army organisation and equipment is stronger to-day than it was 20 years ago. The money is needed not only for development but to attempt to maintain the standard of living. The Government have, in other cases, adopted, 18 years later, the policy systematically pursued by us. This policy is 18 years old. It is nearly old enough for the Minister and his colleagues to adopt it. That is the suggestion which Deputy McGilligan makes to the Minister and which I support. It is a grave blow to the people to be asked, in their smoking of five months, to pay another sum of £2,000,000 to the Exchequer, which is taxing them to an extent they were never taxed before.

Question put.
The Committee divided:—Tá: 58; Níl: 41.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Martin.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick (Co. Dublin).
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Daly, Francis J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Friel, John.
  • Furlong, Walter.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • McCann, John.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Connor, John S.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Skinner, Leo B.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
  • Walsh, Laurence.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard S.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Heskin, Denis.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kinane, Patrick.
  • Larkin, James.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • Coogan, Eamonn.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Sheldon, William A. W.
  • Spring, Daniel.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kissane and Kennedy; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 8.
Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part of the Bill."

This is a proposal to increase the tax on cinema-goers. I do not know how this has affected the city cinemas so far, but I have been informed by cinema proprietors in more towns than one that the effect of this tax will be to close down the cinema industry in country places. The signs appear to be there even at present and if the case made for this tax is similar to that made for others, namely, the necessity to collect money so as to use it in other directions, then the proposal contained herein is not likely to attain its objective.

One of the great causes for complaint and unrest in this country is the topheavy condition into which we are getting, the fact that the capital is growing and the rural areas withering. We are developing into a kind of hydrocephalic monster with an immense head and a shrunken body. There are different views as to the cause, but there seems to be common consent that one of the big contributory factors making for the flow of the population from the country to the capital is the dreariness of life in the country places as compared with the bright lights and the attractions of the capital. Many attempts have been made to stem that rather pathetic trudge away from the country up to the city; various social organisations are attempting through different channels to make life more interesting and more attractive in the country. One of the most useful, and certainly harmless, efforts in that direction is the rapid growth of picturehouses in the smaller towns. There has been a pronounced development in that way in recent years, and its immediate effect has been to make people more content with life in the country.

I do not think any Deputy would suggest that these country cinema houses are making immense profits or that any of the proprietors are becoming extremely rich. They are just able to carry on with reasonable profits and they have not got properly to their feet. They have got only as far as their knees, when down on top of them comes this tax. If my information is anything like correct, it will put them out of business, meaning a return to the gloom, the dreariness and the monotony of country life which was draining the country and overswelling the city. I do not think the tax will meet its avowed object, namely, to bring in revenue. If the Minister makes a check on figures even up to the present moment, he will find there is a drop in revenue instead of an increase, at all events from the provincial cinema, and I ask for reconsideration of that particular provision.

I would like to be as helpful as possible to the Minister in this particular matter and look at it objectively. I see he intends that this increase is to be on cinemas, dog-racing and professional boxing, and the expectation he had was that, after he had operated his tax machine, he would get £150,000. I presume that that is for a half year, so let us say £300,000 for a full year. I want to answer the appeal which, I am sure, will come from the other side of the House: "Where else can the money be got?" Last week, we were told, to the astonishment and amazement of most Deputies, that we had purchased five "Constellations" for £1,250,000.

We all know that that is a non-paying branch of a bankrupt service, but we are told this is to be for prestige. Why should we not have said: "We are a poor country just at the moment and we will have only four-fifths of that prestige we ordinarily would get, and will cut out one Constellation." Then we could save £250,000. Should not that be done, if we are really so hard up that, in order to bring the cost of living back to the May figure, which was very high, we have to give certain subsidies on certain commodities and then get the money back in these other ways, part of it being this entertainment tax? If we are so hard up, should we not say here that we will pull in a little bit of the prestige that in a more wealthy period we might afford?

Deputy O'Higgins has talked about the dreariness of country life and indicated that that has been allayed to some extent by the advent of the cinema. One could hardly imagine a young man who wants to take his girl— at least, his best girl—to a theatre, bringing her out at night to look at the Constellation going by and saying that that is as good as any cinema, or at least is costing us as much. I suggest that to drop one Constellation out of the five is not a terribly big sacrifice, and in that way we could have saved all the money required.

I wish the Minister would divide this tax up. I do not know how much out of the £150,000 is expected from cinema tax, how much from dog-racing and how much from boxing. I am sure there are people in the House who will speak on behalf of those who go to the dogs. I always regard that section with a certain amount of sympathy. I know very well that they know that part of the money they pay goes to improve the breeding of the dogs, but I am sure that they are hopeful also that they are going to make a little bit of money.

I do not know how much comfort the people who go to greyhound racing derive from the thought that by doing so they are going to improve the breeding of dogs, but we are assured that the aim of those who go to greyhound meetings is to improve the breeding. As far as professional boxers are concerned, this would be a damaging tax but for the fact that its effect in the coming year is going to be small. There is not very much to be got from it this year, but in a full year the tax may have a depressing and damaging effect. I do not know whether the Minister is inclined to damage that particular form of amusement. I gather from the newspapers that we have a certain national pride in what some of our boxers have been able to do both here and abroad. The boxers are somewhat upheld by those who satiate themselves by sitting outside the ringside instead of going inside.

This sum of £150,000 could be saved by docking the vote which deals with aviation and meteorological services. That vote has been very much increased. We thought that it had stabilised itself in 1946 at £861,000, but this year it has been raised by £600,000, and that in a country that cannot afford to give a subsidy for bread and butter. It can afford an additional sum of £600,000 for these services, and that figure does not include the Constellations. Drop one of the Constellations and you have the whole problem solved.

Deputy McGilligan is really very entertaining.

Will you pay a tax on me?

If you go outside, I will pay the tax. The Deputy, after his experience as Minister for Industry and Commerce, gets up now and talks glibly about cancelling one of the Constellations to save so much money. He knows that is so much nonsense, because he knows that there was a contract made to buy five.

When was the contract made?

There was a contract. The Deputy ought to know that I could use the same argument about the amount of money that we put at the disposal of the Electricity Supply Board to become a national undertaking. The Deputy thought it would become that at a cost of £5,000,000, but he now knows that the Electricity Supply Board will have to be subsidised and subsidised until there will have to be something like twenty-five or thirty million pounds put into it.

And there will be good value for every shilling of it.

Are the people who are paying for electricity to-day getting good value, or are they getting current at anything like the price at which they expected to get it?

You still have got the white elephant.

There are certain white elephants that you just cannot get rid of.

Start them breeding.

We were not responsible for the breeding of white elephants. I am making that point in contrast to the suggestion that was made by Deputy McGilligan which was that we should cancel the purchase of one Constellation so as to bring about a reduction of the particular tax that we are now discussing.

Could you not sell one?

Deputy Briscoe must get a hearing.

I do not know whether the Deputy would be able to nominate a customer who would buy one from the State.

I am not in big finance.

To come back to the tax on cinemas, I consider that it will be the main item of income so far as this tax is concerned. Deputy McGilligan did not deal with that very much. It is well known to all of us that if the Minister were to accede to the request that this particular increase of tax should be withdrawn he would also have to ask the cinema proprietors to reduce the prices that they added on by way of extra profit when the last tax was put on.

"By way of extra profit when the last tax was put on." Good.

They did not add on the last occasion just the tax fixed by the State. They took up an excuse at that particular moment to increase prices generally. If you talk to cinema proprietors—Deputy O'Higgins, I think, said he had spoken to some of them— they will tell you that the cost of cinema operations have gone up very considerably, almost 100 per cent., mainly due to increased cost of labour. I suggest that we ought to regard these matters as frankly and as clearly as we see them. I have noticed no falling off in the attendances at cinemas as a result of the previous tax or the increase in prices. I see the people going there as before, and the queues are as large as ever. In addition, I still hear of people looking for sites to build new cinemas in spite of the present exorbitant tax which they say would put the cinema business out of existence altogether.

In the city.

Yes, in the city. Down the country where the prices are in quite a different range from what they are here taxation is in a different range also. It is quite obvious that if you examine the small town that has a limited attendance possibility to a cinema, the cinema there is not going to be as attractive as the cinema where there is a tremendous populattion of possible attendances and where they can give much more attractive films than in the small places. There is no comparison between the country cinema and the city cinema, and it will be the city cinema that will bear practically all the brunt of this particular tax.

Deputy McGilligan talked about greyhound racing tracks. I agree with him, as one who occasionally visits a greyhound racing track——

I did not say that I do.

No. What I mean is that, as one who visits racing tracks, I have found that it is not easy to make money when I back a dog. I agree also that a great argument used in connection with commercially run greyhound racing tracks is that this additional tax is going to bring down attendances and that, consequently, they are not going to be able to increase the prize money to help dog owners to produce a better type of dog that has a sale value overseas. I have heard that, but I say it will not affect it in any way. I have made inquiries as to the position and I have been told that if 10/- were charged for entry those who frequent greyhound racing tracks regularly would still pay. Look across the Channel. Over there, a tremendous crowd of people frequent greyhound racing tracks as an entertainment to-day and the admission charge——

In England? I thought they were getting so badly paid that they could not afford anything over there.

I did not say that.

The Minister says the charges are scandalous——

He said nothing of the kind.

Yes, he did.

What the Minister did was to read out wages paid in England to certain tradesmen and he compared these wages with the wages paid here to similar types of tradesmen.

Are we better off?

In these particular trades to which the Minister referred the tradesmen here are better paid than they are in England. I have not, and I hope Deputy McGilligan has not, such an elastic imagination that my words suggest that these are the types of people who frequent the racing tracks.

That is good.

I have no acquaintance with them. Perhaps you know better. However, the greyhound racing tracks are certainly very well attended and they will continue to be.

The tax on professional boxing is held out as a terrible disaster which will overtake the Government for having dared imagine they were going to get one shilling return on professional boxing affairs on which there is going to be an additional tax. Deputy McGilligan knows well that the reason this country was attractive for professional boxing affairs was the promoters of professional boxing found they could get a much better nett result because of the very low tax costs here in the running of these classes of entertainments.

That is precisely why Joe Louis was several times over here.

Joe Louis has not boxed in Europe. I imagine he wants to be paid in dollars.

He will take it any way.

He is a good judge. If he can get the dollars there he will bring the gentlemen over from the sterling countries to box him there. The boxing promoters, as a whole, found it would be attractive from the point of view of profit for them to run these affairs here. They found, however, that they did not have the proper stadium to house the size of the affairs they had in mind and that the type of professional boxing that was put to the public here was not such as to attract audiences at any price.

Hear, hear.

That is the explanation. When Deputy McGilligan in that vein of humour makes all these suggestions I do not see how any case can be made in present circumstances. We have to impose certain taxes now to help to subsidise the particular items we want to keep at a certain maximum level. I do not see how anybody can argue that these increased taxes, under present circumstances, can be objected to.

I thought it was universally accepted that the principle upon which taxation should be applied was that taxes should be applied to that section of the community best able to bear them. It would seem that the Minister for Finance in imposing taxes on tobacco, stout, greyhound racing and pictures has sought to do the very opposite. I may just take one instance —greyhound racing. Greyhound racing is the poor man's sport in the country.

The greyhound industry is a very important industry in the country. It is an industry that brings about an export worth approximately £1,000,000 a year. It is an industry that provides remuneration to the agricultural producer and the agricultural worker in the country. It is an industry which provides a diffused profit throughout the country. That industry is taxed. Just visualise the people who breed greyhounds and the people who attend greyhound meetings. Visualise them as a mass of the people here. You will agree that they are not the wealthier section of the community. Turn to horse racing. There is no tax on horse racing. Not only is there no tax on horse racing but it is subsidised to a larger extent than the value of the tax collected on greyhounds. Visualise the horse owners. Visualise the people who attend the race meeting at the Curragh. Visualise the horse breeders. Can you say that they are a poorer section of the community than those who attend greyhound meetings or those who breed greyhounds throughout the country? If the principle I have referred to of taxing that section of the community best able to bear it were to be applied to those people it is quite obvious that they should be taxed before greyhound racing.

On the question of cinemas I would say that cinemas in the cities are no luxuries for the poor people. It is their only escape from the sordidness of life in tenements and in overcrowded dwellings. It is all very well for the Government and for the Minister who increased his own salary by £10 a week to impose an additional burden on those people. I submit to the House that it is a burden the House should not sanction.

I have not yet started to go to the dogs and I do not frequent boxing tournaments, but I do occasionally, when I have time, visit the cinema. I am, therefore, particularly interested in this cinema tax, as it affects our rural areas. The tax on admission to cinemas may not restrict to any great extent the audiences in the larger towns and cities, but when we come to consider the very small towns and villages, where cinemas have been established in recent years, we must realise that this tax may have the result of closing many of these cinemas. There is no doubt whatever that the cinema proprietors in the small towns are finding it very difficult to keep those places of amusement open. During the last ten or 12 years rather a large number of cinemas have been built in the various town and even in the villages. That is true. I think, however, that most of the people who have gone into that business have found that the profits are very small and that it is very difficult to secure the attendance which is necessary to make the business a paying proposition. The Minister may say to me: "Well, is it not all for the best? Is it not better that these local cinemas should be closed down and that the rural population should turn to some other form of amusement and that they should try, if possible, to provide their own forms of amusement?" I am all for encouraging our people, particularly our young people, to provide themselves with their own forms of entertainment, but you must remember that we are living in an age when people are not blind or stupid. Nowadays people in the remotest rural areas have a very good idea of how people live in the larger towns and cities. If these people in the most remote rural areas are deprived of this amenity they will be more inclined to turn to the larger centres of population for this entertainment.

In imposing this tax has the Minister taken into consideration the conditions prevailing in the small towns? In the small towns the cinema has to struggle in order to keep going. If it is forced out of existence through the imposition of this tax and if the rural poulation is deprived of the cinema it is inevitable that they will have an added sense of grievance and that they will feel themselves placed at a disadvantage as compared with the cities and larger towns. In the cities there is a stratum of society in a position to keep the cinemas going in spite of the very high tax. In the country the high tax will have the effect of forcing the poor people to remain away and it may have the effect of closing down the cinema in the rural areas altogether. I think that is one result which must follow from this increased taxation. The city cinema will be strong enough to survive. The country cinema will be forced out of existence. That is a serious consideration and it is one upon which the Minister ought to dwell. We cannot afford to do anything at the moment which will have the effect of driving more people away from the rural areas. If we are going to survive as a nation we must have more production. The bulk of that production must take place in the rural areas. We must produce more turf, more coal, more farm produce and we must win more mineral resources from our soil. In order to do that we must ensure that the bulk of our people will work whole-time on the land. We will not do that by depriving the people in the rural areas of the one slender amusement that they have. I agree with the Deputy who said that we should encourage more communal entertainment in the rural areas— entertainment provided by the people themselves. But we should do the same in regard to the cities and towns and we should in no circumstances place the rural population at a disadvantage as compared with the urban population; rather, I should say, we should not add to the existing disadvantages which the rural population endure as compared with their city brethren.

I make a serious proposal that we should turn our attention to the aviation and meteorological services if we want to get £150,000. Does the Minister seriously say that it is not possible to make any serious reduction—in something that makes for the good of the population generally—in order to get £150,000 in the half-year or £300,000 in the whole year out of Vote 56? Considering the fact of its having risen to the extraordinarily high level of £915,000 on what is acknowledged to be non-paying services, that it is amazing that they should have risen in the year we are speaking of now by another £3,000,000 or £4,000,000; and I cannot believe that there is any difficulty in the way of finding £300,000 out of the £600,000 now being spent on these services. I have talked about the Constellations. Deputy Briscoe answers and says that they were bought some time ago. I want to know when they were bought? Was the order placed for them any time this year? I imagine it would have been. That was at a time when the cost of living was rapidly increasing for us. Surely someone should have thought that here was a place where we could at least reduce and where we could suffer some little reduction of our national pride and prestige in order to effect a saving.

Deputy Cogan says that it is desirable to turn the people towards communal amusements—amusements provided by themselves—instead of having them frequenting the cinemas. That is something which would be commended by everybody. But we must take things as they are. It does not do to make a sudden change. People in the rural areas are accustomed to getting a little solace by an occasional visit to a picture house. In the main they are the younger elements in the rural population who are enabled to go to the picture houses only on the pocket money which their parents can give them. That pocket money grows less and less as times grow harder and harder. As a result of this increased tax they will have to forfeit even that slight amusement in their arduous lives.

I always did hear that there was one step nearer and nearer to the servile state—that is, where the State take over everything, provide food and drink and housing and take away from men the responsibilities they have to face up to—their own personal problems—and that you got to the last point when the State began to look at even the pocket money of the people and eventually pared that down and gauged it to the lowest possible fraction. Apparently we are approaching that state now. We have got to the stage where the people are not given such wages as enable them to pay their way or rear their families as they should be reared. We have instituted things called "social" services— pauperising gifts in the main. Now, we come to the point where we say: "We have cut wages to half what they used to be; we have given you little social services derived from taxation on other people; we are now at the point of examining how you enjoy yourselves and spend your leisure and we are going to impose some impediment on the free exercise of that leisure." Apparently that is the last point and we have reached it now.

With regard to the increased tax on cinemas, I speak for the rural areas. I urge the Minister to seriously consider the application of that tax. The condition of the rural cinema is very different from that of the city cinema. The income level of the people in the rural areas is much lower than that of the people living in the city areas or in the larger industrial towns. It is vitally important to ensure that the people will remain in the rural areas. Everything possible should be done to encourage them to stay. Special consideration should be given to them in the matter of entertainment. They should be encouraged to remain by giving them at least an equitable measure of consideration. On the basis of income they are not able to pay what the people in the cities and larger towns can pay. They have not the amenities of the cities and towns. Must those people who, accepting the sound advice to remain on the land, be deprived of the facilities freely available in the cities and the town? Is there not a direct incentive given to them there to leave the rural area? Why should they be deprived of the simple pleasure of a weekly visit to the cinema? The serious effect of that deprivation will be felt just as it is being felt at the moment by the publicans because of the increased cost of whiskey and beer. We have seen the devastating effect of that.

I urge on the Minister that he should reconsider this plan of his and work it out upon a more equitable basis which will be just and applicable to the income of all parties. If he does it on that basis—and only on that basis is he justified in imposing the taxation —he will exempt from this increase in tax the picture houses in the rural districts and small towns. Otherwise, he will be inflicting a further injustice upon the people who are unfortunate enough, under present conditions, to have to reside in those districts.

The Minister claimed that this tax on entertainments will bring him in about £150,000 in the half-year. I am not suggesting that the entire tax is unjustifiable, but I am pleading that there ought to be some relief for the rural places of amusement. I do not know how much money that would cost. Whatever it would cost, the Minister may ask me: where is the money to come from? I should like to offer my suggestion and it is this. We provide a considerable amount of money in the Estimates for entertainment. We make a generous provision for entertainment at the Presidential palace. That is one direction in which we could secure some economy to meet the reduction in taxation which I suggest. The money provided for entertainment at the Presidential palace is for the purpose of entertaining distinguished visitors. When we realise how distinguished some of these visitors are we begin to ask ourselves: are we justified in spending this money and would it not be better, instead of spending this money, if we were to give some relief to the amusements and entertainments of the poorer sections of the community? Again, we are spending considerable sums of money on the Institute for Advanced Studies. That is another form of entertainment which the Minister and the Government claim ought to be promoted. It is a form of entertainment upon which we could have a little reduction. The School of Cosmic Physics is supposed to tell us all about the weather. But, notwithstanding the fact that we have voted large sums of money for that school, the Taoiseach could not tell us to-day whether the weather is going to be fine or stormy for the general election.

One is tempted to take part in this debate after listening to Deputy McGilligan and Deputy Coburn telling us about the sordid conditions that exist in the rural districts. I should like to make a plea that that has gone on long enough. We all deplore the flight from the land and people leaving their own areas. If the people who live in the rural areas ever read the debates that take place here and read the speeches of Deputy Coburn and other Deputies about the sordid conditions that exist in the rural districts, the wonder is that anyone is left in rural Ireland. That goes on here year in and year out and I want to protest against it. There are no people living their lives so fully as the people in the rural areas. After travelling up and down to the city for 20 years I say that the people do not live a full life in the city.

Are they not leaving the rural areas?

They are encouraged to do it. If Deputies have any influence on anyone in the country districts, they are encouraging people to leave these areas by voice and pen.

I do not believe you believe that. It is nonsense.

We hear about the sordid conditions that exist amongst the rural community. There is no such thing.

They are leaving the rural areas.

We have listened to Deputy McGilligan time after time talking about the sordid conditions that exist in rural Ireland.

I question that. I do not believe that is so. I talked about emigration.

The people in the rural districts live a very full life. They would not exchange with Deputy McGilligan or the better housed or the better-off people in this city.

A lot of them have done it.

They would not do it. We are told that the extra tax on cinemas and the extra tax on stout and tobacco will drive the poeple away from the rural areas. They are all going to leave the rural areas and come to the city as a result of these taxes. One would think that there was never any tax on cinemas, that there was no tax on dog-racing, that there was no tax on stout or tobacco until this Budget was introduced; that this was the first time we had a tax on these things. In the last financial year before this one the people of this country voluntarily spent £17,000,000 or £18,000,000 on drink and tobacco alone. There was no pressure by the Government or by any of the forces of the State to compel them to pay these taxes. They would have paid far more if more drink had been available. Deputy McGilligan does not deny that, I am sure.

He does not deny that they would have consumed more drink and smoked more tobacco and cigarettes if they had been available.

They would have paid more money.

We had Deputy MacBride a moment ago, in very good Socialist style, telling us that there should be no taxes on the poor, as he called them. Their drink should not be taxed, their tobacco or cinemas should not be taxed. If they went to the "dogs" they should not be taxed. No one would pay these taxes except the poor.

I did not say that.

He said that the State is subsidising horse-racing. As far as I know, it is subsidising itself. I think there was a tax for very many years on dog-racing. In fact I think there has been a tax on dog-racing since it started. That tax is being increased now. We are told that it is the poor who attend dog-racing and that the rich and the millionaires all attend horse-racing. We are told that it is the poor who attend the cinemas, the poor who drink, the poor who smoke tobacco. We have been listening to that now for two or three weeks in this House.

Deputy Corry suggested that they should not be allowed to drink whiskey.

One would think that no one else was being taxed and that only these sections of the community will pay the increased taxes. The total increase sought is very small as compared with the amount voluntarily paid by the people in previous years. The extra taxes on beer, tobacco, cinemas and dog-racing are all taxes that will be paid voluntarily by those who do pay them. They need not be paid. There is no compulsion on anyone to pay a halfpenny. They are voluntary taxes and they will have no effect whatever on the cost of living of the citizens. They would have no effect whatever if these people did not volunteer to pay them. They volunteered to pay almost £20,000,000 last year on drink and tobacco.

The people have shown by that fact that they have had this money over and above the amount required to meet demands for the ordinary necessaries of life. The Minister proposes to collect, if the people volunteer to spend it, and only then, a certain sum under this Budget and when he receives that money, he proposes to utilise it to reduce the cost of living. I think it is a sound and a good Budget, notwithstanding the fact that every section of the Opposition have tried to misrepresent it in every possible way they could. They have done that for sound political reasons, from their point of view, and for that purpose only. In their hearts and souls they know quite well that it is a sound Budget and that it was absolutely necessary in order to halt inflation. Deputy McGilligan knows that, but he can make fine play with it. He can get considerable amusement for ten or 15 minutes of an evening by doing that. However, I think it is a Budget which can be justified and which we can stand over. The Opposition is welcome to all the capital they can make out of it. It represents only a brief episode in the life of a nation, but the Minister's proposals are nationally and financially sound. They are proposals that every sound and sensible man will welcome and justify in the country.

There was a time when the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party used to say that when he wanted to see how things were, he had only to look into his own heart. Now we have reached the point when some rather adventurous Deputies of the Party opposite are looking into the people's hearts and find them so meek that they are filled with the greatest delight because they have to pay £17,000,000 or £18,000,000 a year in taxes on beer, tobacco and spirits. Deputy Allen and his colleagues think that it will do them a lot of good and stir up more delight in their hearts if they are asked to pay for five months' consumption an additional amount of £935,000,000 on spirits——

£935,000,000?

We shall get along to the millions eventually, judging by the pace we are keeping.

And they will volunteer to pay them.

£935,000 on spirits, £830,000 on beer, £1,960,000 on tobacco and £150,000 on entertainments. This is likely to add a top to the delight of the people who in their meekness, gentleness and docility are taking a real national pleasure in paying the taxes imposed on them already. It must be very interesting telescope or eye-glass that Deputy Allen and his colleagues use when they are looking into the people's hearts.

Listening to Deputy MacBride a short time ago speak of greyhound racing as the poor man's sport, I wondered whether he was ever at a greyhound racing meeting. I run dogs on the Cork and Dublin tracks and I have some experience of this sport. I do not believe that people running dogs at these meetings will object to paying this tax. I often wonder how it is that people trying to have a bet on their own dogs are not knocked down in the rush when attempting to get to a bookmaker, seeing the big number of people who are anxious to put on "tenners", £50 and even up to £100 sometimes. It is surprising how poor people could have all this money. I can assure you from my experience that on some occasions you could not get near a bookmaker unless you were a fighting man. I should like to see some figures showing the turnover of these bookmakers on a night at one of the Dublin or Cork tracks.

Most of the people who attend dog racing are regular patrons of the game. They pay from 3/- to 5/- admission on each of three nights a week—perhaps in Dublin on six nights a week—and yet Deputy MacBride suggests that it is the poor man's sport. If a man is investing that amount every night in the week on admission fees, merely to get in the gate, I am sure the amount he invests in bets reaches a figure that would frighten some people. Some of the people attending dog racing tracks undoubtedly have rather small salaries but the amount which they invest in bets is rather surprising. I do not believe, speaking from my own experience, that the people running dogs at these meetings would object to the payment of this tax. I remember shortly after the Government came into office when a tax of this character was proposed the Cork Coursing Club discussed the matter and they were quite willing if necessary to pay the tax. They were quite willing to bear that tax in the interest of the nation.

That is tantamount to a suggestion that the tax might be doubled and the members of the Cork Coursing Club would still cheerfully pay it. I wonder would the Deputy stand before his constituents in Cork and say that he was responsible for such a suggestion, that the Government could get this £150,000 from the Cork Coursing Club——

I did not say that.

The Deputy held them up as one of the examples of people who are willing to pay the tax.

They will pay their share.

The suggestion is made because Deputy MacBride stated that dog racing was a poor man's sport, that he suggested that it was only poor people attended these meetings. I never heard that suggested but certainly in relation to horse racing——

He said it was the poor man's sport.

In relation to horse racing, dog racing can surely be considered as the poor man's sport.

Nonsense.

Would Deputy Allen say that the type of people who go to horse racing are the same type who attend dog racing?

The very same people.

You may get some part of the people going to the dogs on particular occasions who attend horse races during the day, but the people who can afford to take a day off for a horse race meeting are certainly not the people in the main who go to the dogs. I do not believe there is anybody listening who will seriously question that statement. When the argument is put up that people cannot afford to pay these taxes, Deputy Allen puts the grand construction on that, that they have volunteered to pay in the past. I expect we shall hear one of these days, now that Deputy McGrath has broken the ice, that a whole lot of publicans, cinema proprietors and people who run greyhound racing tracks, have come to the Government and have asked them for permission to pay these taxes.

Deputy Allen says that they are voluntary payments because a certain sum has been paid in the past. Does the Deputy not take the view that that might be an indication that the people who pay these taxes, regard these pursuits as something essential to their lives, something that is definitely not a luxury? There are some people who seem to be tending towards the belief that we should have such a puritanical spirit in the country as to be able to screw every penny out of those who desire to enjoy themselves now and again. Deputy Allen thinks that a man is something approaching a depraved type if he feels now and again that he wants a drink or a smoke or to go to a cinema at night or to visit a dog track occasionally. Have we got to the point that that is to be regarded as something abnormal? Surely that is the point you get to when you cut in on people's amusements, particularly when the amusements are not of an extravagant type and are certainly not of a depraved type, in the effect they have on the people who enjoy them. It is very definitely a bad thing to get to the point of depriving people of entertainment which aids them to live, which aids them at least to better living and may in the end have the subsidiary result of making them work harder.

Anyone reading in the papers what is happening in England will realise that one of the points of attack is whether or not certain taxes have not been responsible for the low productivity of the men at work. Are we setting our feet upon that track without paying attention to what is happening on the other side? Notwithstanding the patriotism of the Cork Coursing Club and the volunteers who have subscribed so much through liquor and tobacco, how many peope would offer any casually-chosen 100,000 of our population their choice between a tax on cinema prices and cutting one Lockheed Constellation out of five? I think the vote would definitely be in favour of cutting out the Lockheed Constellation, and by having four Lockheeds instead of five we could save the money that is required here.

I would not have intervened in this debate were it not for Deputy Allen's speech. Deputy Allen wanted to paint conditions in the country districts as something more jovial than they really are. I noticed that Deputy Allen was not in his usual good form when he was speaking to-night.

I never felt in better form.

Deputy Allen when he speaks here usually has a smile, and he draws laughter from other Deputies. To-night he was a most serious man; his heart seemed to be in his boots. He tried, with an effort, to get us to believe that the people in the country are falling over themselves to co-operate with the Minister in his new taxes. When we were discussing the tobacco tax it occurred to me that there is no smoke without a fire. If there is not a fire there is a certain amount of heat in the country with regard to these taxes. I think that most Deputies over there, when they go on the election platforms, will find that the heat is not confined altogether to the smokers.

I wonder under what conditions Deputy Allen would like us to live in the country. There is great talk about the flight from the land, about the numbers who have gone to the cities, and the hundreds of thousands who have gone across the Channel. I should like to see some attempt made to bring them back. Is there any indication that the Minister for Finance and the Deputies behind him—even Deputy Allen—have any desire to induce some of our people who have, unfortunately, left this country, to return? Any person in the country can tell Deputy Allen what is happening there at the moment. He can tell him that the pint has gone to 1/1, that one has to break into the third shilling in order to get a second pint; he can be told that two ounces of tobacco cost nearly 4/-, and that it will cost him a few extra pennies to get to the cinema.

In these circumstances, if he is living in Dublin, will he be induced to go back to the country? Yet, Deputy Allen suggests that the people in the country are falling over themselves to pay the taxes that are being imposed under this Bill. So far as I know country conditions, they were never in a more pitiable state. Two or three workers after a laborious day at threshing, or other work, might like to go to the local pub to have a drink or two, to chat as in the old days and yet not get drunk. You will see very few drunken men in the country now, I am glad to say. Country men might like to chat about affairs of State and the glorious Government we have. An odd man might shout "Up Dev" if he drank too much—and that would be very seldom.

How many bottles would they get?

You do not hear many shouting "Up Dev" now. They would not get enough bottles to put that much spirit in them, even if they had any desire to shout it. Many a man might like to have a pint of stout. That could not be regarded as an extravagance, because it is really a necessity after a hard day on the farm. Surely, there must be some little amusement for them? Deputy Allen apparently resents that they should have some little relaxation. Nowadays they cannot afford to have much. If a number of them have a few pence left they cannot have a game of pitch and toss, because the police will get them for breaking the law.

Deputy Allen could have painted a grand picture if he wanted to. The real picture is that very few people in the country can afford a second bottle of stout, and Deputy Allen knows that as well as I do. He is a lucky man who can have a couple of pints in the week, whereas in the old days he could have one every night. Deputy Allen knows that the Minister was exaggerating when he said: "We will only reduce the smoke to five-sixths of what it was." I do not agree with that. I do not see why a countryman's luxury should be reduced, even by one-fifth. Deputy Corry suggested that in no circumstances should a countryman be allowed a glass of whiskey.

That would be more appropriate to a different section. We are now dealing with entertainment duty.

The main entertainment we had to-night was Deputy Corry's suggestion that a countryman was not entitled to any of these luxuries and that they should be confined to the very rich. I think when it comes to speaking out of order I am less culpable than many other Deputies. I resent the declaration that these taxes do not affect the ordinary residents in the country, and particularly the poorer people. I do not think that anybody of any politics will back up the statement by Deputy Allen a few moments ago that the taxes imposed in this Budget or any Budget were voluntarily paid by the people. Well now, I will leave it to the sense of the House. People do not go to gaol to evade them, but if he tells me that the taxes are voluntarily paid, with goodwill, then it is useless to argue in this House.

These taxes fall more heavily on the people in the country districts than anywhere else, because they have less surplus wealth. Something is needed to make country life more attractive and to bring back the numerous people, men and women, who have left it, instead of putting every obstacle before any attempt they might make to come back.

I rise to my feet to say something about Dublin in regard to the entertainment tax. Some Deputies have spoken as if the rural areas were the only, or the chief, places affected by the entertainment tax. Deputy McGilligan spoke of the sordid conditions which may obtain in the country. He did not, of course, say that the whole country was sordid. Deputy Allen said that none of the country was sordid and took it as a personal insult to rural life in general. Of course, it was not intended as such. I say this to the Deputies: sordid conditions exist in the city. We have in Dublin, as everybody knows, sordid streets and slums, as well as beautiful streets and fine buildings. The people who live in these sordid conditions in the city go very frequently to the cinema and the cinema plays a part in their lives which it does in no other sections of the community in the whole country. At least, the rural people have God's fresh air and beautiful pleasant surroundings in which to go out on a Saturday afternoon or on a Sunday or in the evenings during the summer. City people, however, have nothing to do but to walk round city streets or to pay money to go comparatively long distances out in the country.

This is not the time or place to get into a discussion on what I might call the ethical and moral considerations of going to the cinema. I am not advocating that all the population should rush to the cinema any more than I am advocating that they should rush to the dog races or the horse races, but there are many citizens who wish to go to the cinema perhaps once a week and I consider that they have a perfect right to go as often as they wish, as long as they are not spending too large a share of the family income on the cinema. We, of this House, have no evidence that many people are beggaring themselves by going too often to the cinema. This tax is not being brought in, I take it, as a sort of puritanical measure to prevent people from going to the cinema, but merely in order to raise revenue. The point is that in this City of Dublin it will have a very deadening and dulling effect on the life of persons who need the colour, the entertainment and, in many instances and increasing instances, the educational value which the cinema can supply.

Speakers to-night have spoken about dog racing and horse racing, and I was sorry to see Deputy MacBride pitting one somewhat against the other. I do not wish to follow that line. I think that horse racing, under certain conditions, is very fine entertainment. People can get out into the fresh air and the country, but the same, however, cannot be said about dog racing. We have a big greyhound industry in this country and I suppose that that greyhound industry needs a certain amount of care and attention. Nobody wants to interfere with that industry, but certainly very many people who go to dog races, after paying their entrance fee, spend an inordinate amount of the family income putting money on dogs for the purpose of bets. This is a matter on which I do not like to lay down the law or lecture people—it is their own business. If it were a case of increasing the taxation on dog races or on the cinema, I would say that the tax should be taken off the cinema, where at least the whole family can go for entertainment and leave it—if you are faced with those alternatives—on dog racing where you may have people spending in bets more money than they can afford.

In the main, this interference with the legitimate pleasure of the people, as evinced in the entertainment taxes which we are discussing, is a bad and unfair principle, and I would ask the Minister to take off the high taxation on the cinemas, bearing in mind that the people of Dublin, the capital city of this country, have just as great an interest, and perhaps greater, in the cinema than the inhabitants of the rural areas.

I do not believe that this particular section will have any great effect on the attendance at the cinemas or the dog races. It is estimated that in this financial year there will be an extra £150,000. Somebody asked how that was to be divided up. It is £6,800 on dog racing and professional boxing and £143,200 on the cinemas.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 57; Níl, 38.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brennan, Martin.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Friel, John.
  • Furlong, Walter.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick (Co. Dublin).
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Daly, Francis J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Connor, John S.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Skinner, Leo B.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Ua Donnchadha, Dómhnall.
  • Walsh, Richard.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Coogan, Eamonn.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Davin, William.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kinane, Patrick.
  • Larkin, James.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Reilly, Thomas.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
  • Spring, Daniel.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kissane and Kennedy; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Section 9 agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Question proposed: "That Section 10 stand part of the Bill."

This is the section which imposes a tax of 3d. a pint on beer and stout, and the equivalent on the bottle. The Minister's case for this Supplementary Budget is that the money is required. He estimates that, under this section, he will receive in five months over £800,000. In a further breath, he tells us that, if anybody wants to evade this tax, all he has to do is to reduce consumption. The object of the tax will, of course, be defeated unless it brings in the revenue estimated. Let us assume that the Minister is correct in his estimate and that he collects off those who drink beer or stout £800,000 in five months. Remember, the only case for this Supplementary Budget is that it will reduce the cost of living. We reduce the cost of living by putting a new impost of nearly £1,000,000, over a period of five months, on, in the main, the poorest section of the community. One of the two Government Deputies who participated in this debate, when we were dealing with the tax on whiskey, pointed out, in defence of that tax, that beer was the drink of the poor man and that spirits was the drink of the wealthy man. Out of the mouth of that Government Deputy, we have the clear admission that his Minister, in order to reduce the cost of living, is placing a new imposition of nearly £1,000,000 in half a year on the backs of the poorest section of the community.

There are two sets of persons involved in this impost. There is the man who sells the beer and the person who consumes it. There are, approximately 12,000 such traders in the State— unquestionably decent, upright members of the community, the hard core, the spearhead, the centre-piece of every progressive national and social movement. Very few of them are wealthy. The average is of the middleclass, shopkeeper type up and down the country. They are rearing their families decently and doing their best, in a modest way, for them. That section of the community is asked to bear a tax, under this section alone, of, approximately, £2,000,000 a year. In addition, they will pay their increased income-tax and the various other charges. We are told that that is being done in the best interests of the community and so as to reduce the cost of living. The presumption is that the Minister will, for once, be correct, that his estimate will be somewhere near the mark, that he will get the revenue he estimates, that he will get that extra couple of million pounds, mainly out of the pockets of the workman—exclusively out of the pockets of the workman, according to the Government Deputy who spoke here this evening. We are told that that is to reduce the cost of living.

Let us take the case of the moderate drinker, the steady, hardworking man, the man who has one pint at dinner hour and, possibly, another at night. You are putting a direct imposition on that man of, approximately, 4/- a week. In the same Budget, you are giving him a relief equivalent to less than 1d. per head per day of his household. It is all very well to be talking of official figures and of reducing the cost-of-living index figure. If we are realists, if we are really facing up to the situation of the back-broken man and heart-broken woman struggling with a progressively soaring cost of living, we may be able to argue that, through this Supplementary Budget, we are reducing the cost-of-living index figure, on which beer and tobacco do not figure, but, in fact, we are increasing the actual cost of living in the majority of homes.

The Minister knows very well that the recreation of the workman in Dublin and rural Ireland, the abstemious man, the regular worker, is this—to sit and smoke and chat over a pint at night. To reduce the cost of living in the homestead of that abstemious man, who never drinks to excess, who is a good husband and good father, we are proposing to clap on this tax. If the cost of living is reduced in that homestead, or in such homesteads, it will be only because the tax drives the person concerned to give up that little bit of comfort. If it drives him to that extreme, then the tax will be a complete failure. Instead of bringing in revenue, there will be a heavy loss of revenue. Parliament and people are entitled to a direct, straight lead from Government, not a lead like the flight of a jack-snipe, zig-zagging, relying on one leg and one set of arguments one day and on another leg and an opposite set of arguments the next day.

The argument is used that the people concerned can evade the tax by reducing their consumption of stout or porter. If that device is adopted, then this proposal is a sham. Not only will it not bring in extra money but it will bring about a slump in the revenue. From the human point of view, from the point of view of the welfare of the honest man, who is working with bone and muscle, I have no hesitation in describing this tax as an exceptionally brutal tax, as a tax which is nationally unjustifiable. I should not subscribe to the arguments put forward earlier in this debate by Deputy Corry but I invite Deputy Corry and other Government Deputies who feel like him to stand up to their public statements by their vote. Let everybody who considers this a just imposition on the people vote for it.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 13th November, 1947.
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