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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Nov 1947

Vol. 108 No. 15

Committee on Finance. - Poultry Hatcheries Bill, 1947—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. In recent years there has been an increasing tendency under which the older system of hatching eggs on the farm, either by natural means or in incubators, is being replaced by the distribution of day-old chicks from large-scale commercial hatcheries. Some 24 large commercial hatcheries are already in operation in different parts of the country and it is understood that the establishment of several additional such hatcheries in the near future is contemplated. In addition a considerable number of poultry-keepers throughout the country who have facilities for artificial incubation engage in the sale of day-old chicks.

While the establishment of commercial hatcheries is considered to be a very desirable development and has many advantages as compared with the hatching of eggs on the farm, there is no doubt that the danger of outbreaks of disease on a large scale in poultry flocks will increase correspondingly as hatcheries increase in size and number. The existing commercial hatcheries are subject to no control whatsoever as regards the sources from which eggs are obtained or the conditions under which incubation is carried out and chicks are distributed. The same position obtains with regard to other distributors of chicks, except where these are holders of poultry stations under my Department's Poultry Stations Scheme. Moreover, in many cases the hatchery owner or poultry-keeper exercises no discrimination in the selection of eggs for incubation, with the result that the chicks distributed are of very doubtful quality.

The Committee of Inquiry on Post-Emergency Agricultural Policy recommended that distributors of hatching eggs and day-old chicks should be licensed under conditions to be determined by the Department of Agriculture and that holders of hatchery licences should be prohibited from in cubating eggs other than those derived from flocks certified to be blood-tested and free from disease.

The proposed legislation to provide for the licensing of hatcheries, as outlined in the Poultry Hatcheries Bill, has the twofold object of ensuring (1) that the eggs used for hatching in hatcheries are derived from flocks of suitable type and quality which are free from disease, and (2) that the production and distribution of chicks by hatcheries are carried out under conditions calculated to reduce to a minimum the danger of spreading disease. It is not feasible at this stage to extend the scope of the Bill so as to provide that other distributors of day-old chicks and distributors of hatching eggs, should be licensed, but such a development can be considered at some suitable time in the future when the present Bill dealing with the licensing of hatcheries is in full operation.

The Bill provides that when enacted it shall come into operation at such times as may be fixed by Order of the Minister for Agriculture. The present intention is that the Act will be brought into operation in two stages, as follows:—

Stage 1. This will include the operation of Parts I, II, IV and Sections 15 to 18 in Part III of the Act.

Stage 2. This will involve bringing into operation Sections 12 to 14 in Part III of the Act whereupon Sections 15 to 18 will cease to operate.

Stage 1 will be taken as soon as practicable after the enactment of the Bill. At this stage poultry hatcheries, other than those classes that may be exempted, will be prohibited from operating except under licence to be issued each year subject to such conditions as the Minister for Agriculture may think proper. Provision is made in the Bill for the Minister to make regulations exempting from the licensing requirements hatcheries of certain classes to be defined in such regulations; for example, hatcheries which do not engage in the production of chicks for sale or of which the hatching capacity is less than a specified minimum. Egg supplies for a licensed hatchery will have to be obtained from farms the owners of which have been granted "provisional permits" each year to supply eggs to licensed hatcheries.

This "provisional permit" arrangement, which is intended to be of a temporary nature, was devised to get over the difficulty arising from the fact that the hatcheries at present in operation are getting hatching eggs from many farms that are not of the standard that will ultimately be required for "approved egg supply farms". Therefore, in order not to disorganise the working of existing hatcheries, it will be necessary for some time to grant "provisional permits" to many of these farms and so give them the opportunity to qualify ultimately as "approved" farms. The provisional permit period will also afford an opportunity of determining the reliability and honesty of the owners of existing hatching-egg supply farms.

When Stage 2 is reached after Stage 1 has been developed for some years, licensed hatcheries will not be allowed to purchase eggs for hatching from any farm which is not "approved" each year as an egg supply farm. At this point the system of granting provisional permits will cease.

The Bill provides that the Minister for Agriculture may authorise persons to be inspectors for the purposes of the Act. Apart from a number of inspectors who will have to be appointed on the central staff of the Department of Agriculture, it is intended, when the Bill is enacted, to ask the county committees of agriculture to signify their agreement to having their poultry instructors authorised to be inspectors for the purposes of the Act. It is anticipated the committees of agriculture will, in general, be willing to agree to this course.

We have no objection to this particular measure. As a matter of fact we fully appreciate the importance of having some control over the eggs that are used in our large hatcheries. Up to this there has been no control whatever over the proprietors of these hatcheries who have been buying eggs all over the country. These proprietors offer attractive prices because they have to offer such prices and that leads to abuses. The supplier is tempted to buy eggs outside his own farm. He buys eggs from farms where there has been no blood test and because of that the incidence of B.W.D., is very, very high. The mortality subsequently in the young chicks is proportionately high. Anybody who has any experience or knowledge of the poultry industry appreciates how important it is to have blood testing carried out and to ensure freedom from eggs produced by stock which have not been blood-tested. For that reason I welcome the control proposed under this measure.

I am sorry that the Minister has not given us more information about the operation of such hatcheries. From my experience of the county committee of agriculture I know that difficulty has arisen in controlling the eggs which went out from our stations into the big hatcheries. The bulk of the production left the county and last year we were left short of essential stock. In fact there was no guarantee that when our subsidised eggs were hatched out and the day-old chicks were ready they would be retained in the county. We had no guarantee that would happen. It did not happen as a matter of fact and we had to take special measures to ensure that the stock would be retained for our own people and would not leave the county.

Reading the Bill I can appreciate the difficulties so far as control is concerned, but there is no indication given as to how the control will operate. Neither did I hear from the Minister anything as to the operation of the Bill to prevent one county being robbed at the expense of another in regard to day-old chicks. He has given no information as to what his intentions are regarding the owner of the small incubator with a capacity of 100 to 150 eggs. As a matter of fact the smaller ones are controlled at present and blood testing is carried out by the county instructresses. We are quite safe in that respect.

I do not think all the small ones are controlled.

Not all of them, but the ones that are stations at present under the committee of agriculture are all controlled. I merely want to point out that if people bought all their eggs from such stations they would have a guarantee of freedom from the incidence of disease. I want to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that it is the type of station we now have which should be enlarged for the purpose of supplying the bigger hatcheries. How are they to be subsidised? If they are to be subsidised by the county committee the possibility is that the committee may find itself in the position of putting up money to supply day-old chicks to some other county. Naturally any county committee would be reluctant to do that. When the Minister is replying perhaps he will give us some further information on that point. I can understand why the provisional permits are necessary for the purpose of implementing the scheme in the transition stage.

The Minister has told us that there are 24 large hatcheries at present and that several more will be in operation in the near future. One thing that strikes me, so far as the poultry industry is concerned, is that we will be up against fairly keen competition from Denmark and other countries if we plan to compete under normal conditions and in normal export markets. It is essential that we should have day-old chicks at the lowest possible price and for that reason I am not keen on bringing in commercial interests who will be anxious to net a profit. The industry can scarcely afford a big margin of profit, particularly in the case of the smallholder, whose production is limited. If these day-old chicks cost too much it will further reduce the small margin that accrues to them. Cooperative societies could be very beneficial in this respect. If a member of a co-operative society does not get a margin on the supply of day-old chicks he will get it in some other way through a dividend from his society. I think that the supply of chicks through cooperative societies would be the ideal solution. Where there are no co-operative societies the work could be undertaken by the county committees. It might be said that that is somewhat socialistic but the fundamental aim as far as the poultry industry is concerned is to do all in our power to improve that industry.

The difficulty at the moment is that on the average small holding there is only an oil incubator available and the housewife has to keep a constant watch on it. It is not a very efficient heating apparatus. She may give it a lot of care for three weeks and then one night when she is in bed the lamp goes on fire and all her efforts are wasted. That is very disappointing. The modern idea of encouraging people to take the day-old chicks is the ideal one and if they can be supplied at a reasonable price the industry will be well on the way to recovery. My advice to the Minister is to go slow before encouraging the commercial interests to come into this service. Admittedly the large proprietors are very expert in the business but the margin of profit might be more than the industry can afford to bear.

This Bill will be welcomed by all those who are interested in poultry production. If we have purebred stock we will definitely have increased production. Now that we are gradually moving towards modern methods and more efficient lines of production the control of hatcheries will no doubt have a beneficial effect on the poultry trade in general. The controlling of eggs, seeing that the proper type of eggs is used for incubators, is something that is definitely wanted, because the more or less mongrel breeds that can be so easily crossed in hatcheries have a bad effect on egg production.

Everybody who understands poultry realises that the purer the breeds are the better the production. But if large hatcheries are encouraged there may be a danger of squeezing out the smaller hatchery or the average housewife or farmer's wife who has a small incubator. There should always be room for those who wish to keep a small incubator to produce chicks and sell them to anybody who wishes to buy them. I am afraid that the Department may find it hard to keep effective control over all types of incubators. If, however, they decide to exercise a real control over large hatcheries, those commercial concerns may demand that the small hatcheries be controlled as well, and that may result in the small hatcheries being squeezed out of production. Of course, in poultry production you will always have some persons who believe in the old system, but there is no doubt that, if you are to increase production, the incubator is definitely the best and the quickest system.

In my locality there is a great inclination to go in for the ordinary paraffin incubator. No matter how progressive we are, we must realise that it will be years and years before we will be able to provide these people with any other type of incubator than the paraffin one. I should like very much if control could be exercised in such a way that chicks produced for sale in these small hatcheries and incubators would be of pure breed. We know that the average farmer's wife is not too particular as to the type of eggs which are put in the incubator and the chicks may be sold as pure Minorcas, Wyandottes and Rhode Island Reds and no one will know what type they are.

My own objection to this Bill is in connection with the appointment of inspectors to look after these hatcheries. Encouragement by way of grants to smallholders or small farmers to keep incubators and produce day-old chicks would perhaps be as good a means of increasing poultry production as helping out the large hatcheries, while at the same time making sure that the eggs used even in the smallest hatcheries would be of good tested quality and would not produce a mongrel stock. I should be glad to see the scheme getting as much encouragement as possible, because we are now coming into the year 1948 and the system of 40 or 50 years ago, if not altogether abolished, must definitely take second place. I would be very pleased if some system of grants were introduced for smallholders who wish to carry on a system of hatching chicks for the purpose of sale and if the inspectors working under the committees of agriculture would see that the eggs which are to be hatched out came from a purebred stock so that there would not be any cross strains.

I have not given any attention to the point made by Deputy Hughes as to eggs passing from one county to another. That, I think, could be dealt with in the poultry station scheme. Anyhow, I suppose it cuts both ways. We can at least examine the matter. All I can say is that there must be a movement both ways.

Not always.

Not always. Taking it over a long period, I suppose the matter evens itself out very well.

Carlow is in the corner of three counties and the Minister can appreciate what happens there.

There may be a hatchery in the corner of the other counties also from which you may be getting benefit.

There is not.

I think it is rather fortunate that this measure is introduced now because, when enacted, it will coincide with what is contemplated under the agreement recently made between the British Government and ourselves regarding eggs and the preparation of a scheme of development which is provided for in that agreement. If we want to encourage and expand this industry to meet the demands of the future, I agree with Deputy Hughes that these chicks should be made available. As to what he describes as the commercial hatcheries, some of these, perhaps, are not desirable; some of them may not, perhaps, be too well looked after and there may be the danger to which he referred. I will examine all the aspects of that matter. I do not know that there is any serious objection to allowing the commercial hatcheries to continue. As I say, I agree that the chicks should be made available at a reasonable price, however that is to be done. In the preparation of this scheme which is contemplated, it is well that we should have a proposal such as this. It is a good foundation on which to build our scheme and we should be able to take long strides forward to put this industry on a sounder foundation.

How is it proposed to subsidise the supply stations?

That is not a matter that is covered in this Bill.

The present stations are getting grants and, because they are getting grants, they can supply the chicks cheaper than if they were not getting grants. We are providing for supply farms to supply the eggs to the hatcheries. Obviously, if you put them on the same basis as the others, you are going to subsidise them by giving them grants.

There is no provision in this measure for subsidies. That question will only arise in designing any scheme for the purpose of making chicks available at a low price.

The Minister is not able to give any information on that then?

I certainly could not. We are not discussing the scheme now.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed that the remaining stages be taken now.
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