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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Jun 1948

Vol. 111 No. 4

Supplementary Estimate. - Vote 64—Army Pensions.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £3,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1949, for Wound and Disability Pensions, Further Pensions and Married Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 26 of 1923, No. 12 of 1927, No. 24 of 1932, No. 15 of 1937, No. 2 of 1941, No. 14 of 1943, and No. 3 of 1946); Military Service Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 48 of 1924, No. 26 of 1932, No. 43 of 1934, No. 33 of 1938, No. 5 of 1944, and Nos. 11 and 34 of 1945); Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 37 of 1936); Payments in respect of Compensation for Members of the Local Defence Force (No. 19 of 1946); for Sundry Contributions and Expenses in respect thereof, etc.; and for an Extra-Statutory Grant.

This Estimate is a supplementary Estimate for some £3,000 by way of ex gratia payment in respect of medical expenses incurred by a person who was wounded during the course of his duty as a member of the Irish Volunteers and who was treated for his wounds while resident outside this country. The circumstances which necessitate the introduction of this particular Estimate are rather confused and complicated and I will endeavour as briefly as possible to give the Dáil a full picture of those circumstances. In the early Wound Pensions Act of 1923 there was no provision for a statutory board for the administration of those pensions. It was left to the Minister for Defence by way of regulations to provide for the machinery to administer and carry out the Act. Such regulations were drafted by the Minister and provided for a Medical Pensions Board which would consist of a president and two members, the president and both members being medical men. In addition to that there was an Army Pensions Board consisting of a chairman, a layman and, when required, a medical consultant. The procedure normally was that the findings and recommendations of the Medical Pensions Board were adopted.

There was another thing of significance in connection with the present proposal, namely that when an applicant got a temporary pension that pension could not be made final for a period of two years. Further, as long as that pensioner was on temporary pension he could get medical treatment free arising directly or indirectly out of his wounds. If he was on final pension he could not get such medical service, hospitalisation, etc., free. The things, therefore, to be remembered are (1) the medical board, (2) that no temporary assessment could be made final for a period of two years, and (3) that a man on final pension could not get free treatment.

The particular case in question was of a volunteer who received multiple wounds in a number of engagements. He came up for wound pension in 1923 and was granted a temporary pension; he came up again in 1924 and was granted a temporary pension; he came up again in 1925 and 1926 and was granted a temporary pension. Some time following the award of the temporary pension in 1926 by the Medical Pensions Board, the Army Pensions Board recommended that he be given a final pension at a lower degree of assessment than was recommended by the Medical Pensions Board.

The Minister for Defence acted on the recommendation of the Army Pensions Board and gave him a final pension, indicating that it was final in money and in the degree of disablement. That assessment of a final pension by the Minister was within two years of the temporary assessment and appeared to be in conflict with the law as it then stood and was found subsequently by the Attorney-General to be so. However, a year or so later, as was conceived possible by the Medical Pensions Board, this man's wounds broke down to a very extensive degree and his health broke down also as a result of the wounds breaking down. He was abroad, and he could not get treatment at State expense because he was on a final pension. The breakdown of the wounds was extensive and the treatment was expensive, necessitating nearly two years' treatment and hospitalisation. Because he was on final pension the bill could not be paid.

Some time later the case was reopened and referred to the Attorney-General. The Attorney-General's ruling was to the effect that, although there was an element of doubt, it appeared that this final assessment was within two years of the temporary assessment. As there was doubt, confusion and misunderstanding in a way which can be perfectly understood, it appeared to me that the most reasonable way was not to sit in judgment by way of legislating as to which decision was correct, but to come to the Dáil asking for an ex gratia payment, to put it to the Dáil that it was a type of case in which the person should not be mulcted in the way of money for anything that arose out of his wounds, that the expenses incurred should be recouped by way of an ex gratia payment rather than altering the whole legislative code as it stands at the moment. That is what I am asking the Dáil to do.

I am not myself aware of any similar cases to this particular case outlined by the Minister, but it is possible that when the news of this particular case is noised abroad other individuals, who may possibly feel that they come within the scope of the particular amendment, may make similar applications. I presume that the Minister will examine these cases sympathetically, if such cases should arise. I should also like to ask the Minister if any advance has been made in respect of the cases to which I referred on the main Estimate, that is in reference to the rather severe methods which were being adopted in respect of successful applicants who were receiving special allowance pensions. The Minister will remember that I outlined one particular case. Since that I understand that several other cases of a similar kind could also be enumerated. I would, therefore, ask the Minister if it is possible to have the whole system of the application of the means test to these special allowance applicants sympathetically considered.

I would join with Deputy Traynor in the appeal to the Minister for consideration of these cases. I think the Minister indicated to us on the main Estimate that he would give these applications every consideration. There is a substantial sum involved here in respect of one individual. I must have missed some part of what the Minister said. I am not clear whether the £3,000 is entirely in respect of medical expenses——

Medical and hospital expenses.

——and whether it is to recoup payments already made to doctors and hospitals or whether it is a claim by doctors or hospitals which this unfortunate man is not in a position to meet.

It is already paid.

Do I take it that the money has been paid to the hospitals and the doctors?

By the individual.

It is to recoup him. As a matter of general information, could we know what is the country in which this treatment was received and the rank of the individual involved? I do not want to ask any further particulars than these. I gathered from the Minister that it covered two years' treatment and hospital expenses. A sum of £3,000 seems to be very substantial for two years' treatment and hospital expenses. However, the country may have something to do with it and also the nature of the treatment.

I want to be as helpful as I possibly can in this case. I just wish to know if the Minister had this man examined since he came back to this country, or has he come back to this country? Has he been again examined by the Medical Pensions Board at St. Bricin's Hospital? Could the Minister give us an indication as to how exactly this £3,000 is made up? We know that in seriously wounded cases medical and hospital expenses are usually very high. I should like if the Minister could give the House an indication as to what is the state of health of the person at present. Has the Medical Pensions Board decided that this man is in such a condition that he is totally disabled and unable to earn his living? I should also like to know if he is married or single. All these factors should be taken into consideration in arriving at the figure. As I have said, I wish to be as helpful as I can, in view of my experience in dealing with such cases and the extraordinary items that crop up in these cases which touch human feeling. I would be glad if the Minister could give the information I have asked for.

One difficulty presents itself to me. The Minister seemed to indicate that, rather than amend legislation, he proposed to deal with this specific case by way of Supplementary Estimate. I would like the Minister to indicate in his reply, if possible, whether there is any real likelihood of another claim of this peculiar nature coming before his Department because I would respectfully suggest to the Minister that, if cases of this nature, as envisaged by Deputy Traynor, were to arise and had to be further considered, this would not be the best way to deal with the matter. If this is not a unique case, I would respectfully suggest to the Minister that it would be wiser to face the problem of payments of this nature by a change of legislation rather than by a Supplementary Estimate.

There are certain features of this case upon which I would like the Minister to enlarge. The Minister indicated in the course of his remarks that this matter has been more or less in hands from the period 1929-30. Possibly that might put the Minister in a position to inform the Dáil as to whether or not this is the only case of this nature and, if no other case has arisen in all that period, whether he conceives the possibility of any other case arising.

There is one piece of information that I would like the Minister to give, if possible. Deputy Cowan has looked for it in the main. He asked the Minister to indicate the country in which this treatment took place. I want the Minister to go further and, if possible, to indicate the specific type of treatment that was required which might account for what appears to me to be an abnormally high bill for any medical treatment. I would like the Minister, further, to indicate to the House whether, in fact, during the period these medical expenses accrued, the person in question, who is now to be given this payment by way of an ex gratia payment, was in receipt of a medical pension, a wounds pension, if one might so describe it. If so, would the Minister indicate the amount of that pension? Finally, would the Minister indicate, if it is not inconvenient, whether this is in discharge of the complete amount of the expenses incurred by this person or whether it is a certain contribution made by the State to recoup him?

I should not like the House to feel that I want any cheese-paring of any kind in relation to a claim such as this but I would like the Minister, if possible, to indicate to the House whether this is a case of unique and special merit or whether the occasion might arise in future that the Dáil, by virtue of this type of Vote, would be put in a position that it could be held up to further commitments and further payments that, properly, should have been claimed a long time ago.

If the Minister is satisfied that this is the only method whereby a disability may be removed, I have no objection. I cannot be more irrelevant, possibly, on this debate than anybody else and I would like to ask the Minister if he would take occasion soon to extend the time for the application for military service medals, and to take up with the Minister for Finance the question of expediting payments on decisions made under the 1946 Act. This Act, to my mind, was one of the most valuable pensions Acts that could have been put into operation. It is really taking care of men who are unable to take care of themselves and it would be very useful if we could have an extension of the time for the application for medals and an expedition of the cases decided by the Department of Finance.

I would ask the Minister to consider the removal of the regulation which denies free medical attention to men who got final assessments. It is possible that this case might not have arisen if men had open to them the medical attention which is open to men who have temporary assessments. Three thousand pounds seems a very large amount, not that I begrudge it to whoever the individual is, but there are a number of others who have been dealt with rather shabbily in comparison with this. I consider that, if there were free medical attention to all pensioners, whether on a temporary or permanent assessment, it would obviate cases of this kind. I would ask the Minister to consider that.

To take the last point first, there is such a vast number of pensioners with different classifications that have arisen over the last 30 years that if a Department of State such as the Army were to make itself responsible for the treatment of all those cases for the rest of their lives, the Army service would be totally incapable of dealing with it and the Army hospitals would be totally incapable of treating them. This particular difficulty does not arise very much because any experienced medical board implementing this kind of Act, even if a man is 100 per cent. disabled, as long as his disabilities are likely to call for further treatment, keep him, for one year after the other, for the whole of his life, in many cases, on a temporary assessment. That provides the latchkey for opening a hospital door any time he requires treatment.

This particular case arose in the very early days before either medical boards, pensions boards, administrators or Ministers were as experienced as they are at the moment, and, consequently, this unfortunate mistake of putting a man too early on a final pension was made. This is an attempt to rectify that mistake.

Somebody, who was thinking whether the man could afford this or should properly afford this, asked me what his pension was at the time. His pension at the time his health broke down was the magnificient sum of £60 a year. The explanation of the relatively large bill that is before us— when I say "relatively" I mean in relation to costs in this country—is that these expenses arose in the United States of America, where everything is considerably higher than in this country. Regarding the amounts making up that particular sum, I have got the evidence of the payments and sworn testimony with regard to the position; and everything on that side is perfectly normal.

Deputy Traynor quite properly called my attention to the point that there may be a number of other cases, or that other demands may arise because of the action we are taking here this evening. That is true and that is, of course, a danger in attempting to rectify any particular case where you have any loosely allied cases. When you open the door for one, a great number of others push in. This case is definitely peculiar, in so far as a definite mistake with regard to the medical assessment was made. As a result of that mistake at that time, this particular pensioner was called on to meet expenses that no pensioner should be asked to meet.

I am in a position to make a very clear and emphatic statement on that, as I myself administered the medical side of these things at that time and if I were as alert to the legal side as I was to the medical side, I would have seen that the Minister did not make that final assessment at that particular time. This case also is peculiar, in so far as all the expenditure arose abroad, where expenses were very great. It is also peculiar in so far as the Attorney-General has, to put it mildly, very grave doubts regarding the legality of altering the assessment from temporary to final within the period of two years.

There are some other cases, very few in number, allied to this, but certainly not similar to it. They are in the same rough class but have not the same peculiar claim on the State for rectification. I chose this particular method of dealing with this one, as it is in a very special compartment. If other cases have to be dealt with, they should be dealt with in the ordinary way, by altering the law. I would avoid that method if I could. I can understand Deputy Collins preferring to do things by legislation; he is a lawyer. The rest of us try to avoid legislation. I am doing this in a way which is simple and above-board and I would rather do in this way than by legislation.

With regard to special allowances, there were several recommendations, as Deputy Traynor would know, with regard to modification or alleviation of the disabilities arising out of certain aspects of the means test, under consideration by the Department for a considerable time past. Any suggestion in that direction that was there in the past is now being pressed ahead as vigorously as I can press it. I am not in a position to say to what extent any alteration of a substantial kind is worth making but, like everyone else, the sooner these restrictions are removed the better I will be pleased.

The question of extending the date for applications for medals concerns some other Departments as well. It is down for early consideration and decision. I am conscious of the fact that there were verbal commitments there before my time and I am anxious to see that they are honoured as far as possible.

Vote put and agreed to.
Vote reported and agreed to.
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