My own guess would be that it would be up to 500,000 acres, and I think that guess is reasonably near the mark.
Deputy Beegan asked if ex-employees will be provided for when an estate is divided. They will. When we take over a farm, or an estate, on which people are in whole-time employment we are knocking them out of their employment. We cannot just throw them out on the roadside. In some cases, those employees may be pretty well advanced in years and, therefore, may find it difficult to get alternative employment. They will always be considered. They are on the priority list, and there will be no change so far as that is concerned.
Quite a number of Deputies brought up the question of the construction and maintenance of roads, and also the question of drainage, by the Land Commission. Let me take roads first. The Land Commission makes roads for the convenience of those who get holdings when an estate is divided, but some Deputies seem to think that the Land Commission should take over other roads in the locality so as to form a link road, leading off one main road and emerging on to another. Some Deputies also seemed to think that the Land Commission should take over drainage work. Let me state clearly to all Deputies that if I were to ask the Land Commission to follow all the advice that I got here during the two or three days this Estimate has been under discussion, I am afraid that my Department would then have to embrace all the work done by practically every other Government Department in its activities. It would become a sort of jack-of-all-trades. In my opinion, the principal purpose of the Land Commission is to relieve congestion, to bring small uneconomic holdings up to a proper economic level and not much else. It has, of course, to do with the improvement of estates. It is concerned mainly with the acquisition and the resumption of land because that is necessary for the relief of congestion. That, in itself, is a huge task. I can assure Deputies that it is a task that will not be accomplished in a year or two. It will not be fully concluded in five years.
If we confine ourselves to the acquisition and the resumption of land for the relief of congestion and for the levelling of uneconomic holdings—all that, of course, will include a certain amount of drainage, road-making and improvements of all kinds on holdings —I think we will have our hands pretty full without taking on the maintenance of roads, roads in respect of which no attempt has been made to improve or repair them since they were made some years ago. I think it was Deputy Burke who described the Land Commission roads as prairie tracks. That has not been our experience in the West. We have always said that the Land Commission roads are the best roads of all in the West. That may not have been so in the East, but I certainly cannot agree with what Deputy Burke said about those roads. We cannot, and will not, take over the maintenance or repair of roads once they are made. That is the work of another Department—the Office of Public Works—or it may be the county councils. It has been argued that we do not make roads in such a way as to form a link road. The roads that we make are made to provide facilities for the people to whom we give holdings or additions of land. If we were to make roads in the way suggested by a number of Deputies it would mean the making of a county road, and that might seriously upset the proper layout of a farm on which we were allotting holdings or making additions. It is our job to provide a good quality road into the holdings, or to the additions that we give. These roads are made to convenience the people who get the holdings. We definitely make very good roads in all these cases. We have done so in the past and will do so in the future, but the Land Commission will not maintain them or repair them. If we were to do that it would mean that we were taking over the work of another Government Department. I have already indicated what the main object of this Department is. We propose to confine ourselves to that work. What I have said about roads applies to drainage. When we take over an estate we do a certain amount of drainage. We leave the land in a pretty good shape, dry, and free from flooding. I want, however, to point out that drainage work on a big scale is a matter for the drainage section of the Board of Works. It is not our intention to do work of that kind.
Deputy Cogan seemed to be concerned about fixity of tenure or rather security in land. If I remember correctly, he was speaking at the time on the vesting of land. I remember that when he was speaking I interrupted him to ask what better title could any man have than that when the Land Commission hands him over his holding—which is what actually happens—the holding or parcel of land is vested in him? Some Deputies voiced the opinion that we interfere with fixity of tenure. We are, of course, interfering. When the Land Commission serves notice on a landholder that it intends either to resume or acquire his land, it is, of course, interfering with his security of tenure. There is no doubt about that, but if we are to stand back and are not to do that, then I think the next proper step to take would be to abolish the Land Commission altogether, because its main functions would have ceased except to collect the annuities.
We do not propose to interfere with the tenure or security of the average small farmer. We are not interested in him from the point of view of disturbing him. In fact, we are anxious to get shut of every holding that is up to a proper economic level, to vest it in the tenant and to hand it over to him, because when we have done that it is, so to speak, so much written off our hands. Why should we seek to upset fixity of tenure all over the country? What would we gain by it? It would get us nowhere. It would simply mean that we would be taking on an enormous responsibility with no compensating advantage, good, bad or indifferent. Our purpose is to do away with the evil that exists, particularly in some of the western counties. That is our main object. That means that we must take over land, and that we are going to disturb the tenure of certain people already in the possession of land. That has been going on for the last 50 years. In fact, it has been going on since the Congested Districts Board was established, and it is going on to-day. I am sure it will continue to go on.
I think the Deputy has not the right angle on this question of security of tenure when he expressed the fears that he did, that we are disturbing people. We have to do it in certain cases. We do not like to do it. We know quite well that the ownership of land is very different from the ownership of any other form of property. I know quite well that any man who owns land—it may be only a few perches of reclaimed bog or it may be a nice normal workable holding or a big holding—and who has inherited that land from his father, if he is a normal healthy individual, will love to work that land; he will enjoy the growing of crops on it and will like to be able to raise some stock on it. In fact, such a man takes a peculiar delight in the ownership of that land. If you disturb such a man, well it means a pretty big upheaval for him. Nevertheless, we must do it. If, on the one hand, we are out to achieve a certain object, and that object, as I have stated, is to relieve congestion, there is no use in saying, at the same time, that we will not acquire land. We have to do it and we will do it. It is a pretty big job and it will mean a big jolt for any person from whom we take land, but it is, nevertheless, something which has to be done, rather like getting a tooth extracted when it goes bad.
A few Deputies, and particularly new Deputies, made suggestions rather on the opposite line to that taken by Deputy Cogan about ownership of land and so on. Ownership of land must remain. One Deputy made the statement that no person had a right to own land, or something to that effect. Every man in possession of land must own his land until the Land Commission, a judicial body set up by statute quite a number of years ago, goes in to take his land for a legal purpose. Outside of that, it is not our desire to disturb people in the tenure of land. They must not be disturbed. There are other big farms and we will continue to take them over, but there is also the point that we must acquire small holdings. little patches here and there which cause trouble sometimes, by reason of their peculiar location. If there is a holding like that, we must take it. Everybody, big, medium and small, must suffer a certain amount of inconvenience in the rearrangement of land. The desirable thing would be to have all holdings brought up to the fair level of valuation which would allow the tenants and every person working on the land to make a reasonable living, but, on this question of interference, we have to interfere and will do so, but, at the same time, we are anxious to give those to whom we allot land full and complete ownership and what I believe is the soundest title in the State to-day. Deputy Davin asked that those who live on demesnes should be put on the same footing as farmers outside. Other Deputies mentioned that point as well and they all seemed to be living in a fool's paradise in regard to it. These people are on the same footing as people outside. There is nothing to stop us acquiring demesne land tomorrow, if we want to. We can acquire land inside the demesne wall just as well as land outside the demense wall. Deputy Burke wants land for poultry farmers. We have done that in the past and will do it in the future. There is nothing wrong with giving land to poultry farmers for their purposes. Deputy O'Rourke asked if it is the policy of the Land Commission to give preference in Roscommon and elsewhere to local congests in the allotment of lands which are being divided. Of course, it is. The very first thing we do is to relieve any congestion there is round about the fringes of any estate acquired, and then, if there is any land left over, it can be utilised for holdings for migrants from congested areas in which there is not sufficient land to meet requirements. Deputy Giles said that a number of junior inspectors appointed by the last Government were given their posts for political reasons. My information is that all our inspectors are supplied to us by the Civil Service Commissioners. I think that should satisfy the Deputy.
Quite a few Deputies were perturbed, and rightly so, about the amount of land passing into the hands of aliens at present. In one sense, there is no need for them to be disturbed because there is nothing to stop us from taking over these lands, if we need them, just as we take any other land in the State. We will take over just as much of it as we want at any time. It will be a question for another Minister to consider the placing of a prohibition of some kind against foreigners or aliens, desirable or otherwise, acquiring property in this country. Some Deputies, and particularly Deputies from eastern and midland counties, spoke of foreigners who have bought up land and established stud farms and so on. Deputy Fagan and Deputy Hilliard seemed to be of the opinion that big farms were an advantage and that such farms in the East were necessary to finish off the store cattle of the West.
I am aware that that has been the practice up to the present, but I cannot agree with any of these Deputies in that regard. It will perhaps mean an upset in our agricultural economy if all the big farms in the East and in the Midlands disappear, but I hold that they will disappear and we shall then have to change our economy. If there were larger holdings in the West, there would not be such a store cattle trade as exists at present and we would be able to finish off our cattle, the few cattle we have in the West, if we had larger-sized holdings. The trouble at present is caused by the fact that the store cattle have to be sold off the small holdings, simply because we have not enough room to finish them off ourselves. It will, perhaps, mean an upset in our agricultural economy, as I say, when these big farms disappear and the buyers so familiar to us at fairs down the West and, I understand, in the South, too, no longer attend; but if such a day comes, we shall have to change our hand and try something else. The demand for land acquisition and resumption will continue until the greater number of the people are completely satisfied with holdings of reasonable size. If it does mean an upset in our agricultural economy, we shall have to try something else, but I put it to Deputies that it is more desirable to have houses and families on land than cattle.
To give a short summary of the situation as it stands, it is my intention and the policy of the Government that the relief of congestion and the raising of small uneconomic holdings to a fair size shall be the first consideration of the Land Commission. That will be the first consideration during the lifetime of this Government, whatever that lifetime may be. It is a pretty big problem, particularly along the western seaboard. We have at present no land on hands worth mentioning for the purpose. I said last week that, when the war broke out, the then Government decided to close down completely on land acquisition. The land on hands during the war years was gradually divided up, and there is no land now on hands. I confidently expected that there would be a certain amount of land available for me to go ahead with when I took over, but I find that there is little or none.
The acquisition and resumption of land was permitted for about two years in a few of the western counties, but that is all, and Deputy Moylan, my predecessor, and Deputies generally know quite well that there is very little land now left for that purpose, even taking into account the large farms which are available there. I think that all the large farms in any single constituency down there could be counted on the fingers of the two hands. We are acquiring and resuming small holdings when they come in the way of the final rearrangement of villages and so on. We need to face up to the problem on a pretty big scale and we intend to acquire that land in every possible place we can acquire it.
Some Deputies seem to think that we have not sufficient powers at the present time. I think we have sufficient powers but if, in the course of six months, nine months or 12 months, I find that we have not sufficient powers, Deputies will probably find that I shall come to the Dáil asking for greater powers. At the present time I do not like to make a definite statement on the matter until I have examined the question or at least have a little more experience because, as I have said, I have no experience of the acquisition of land. If we meet with difficulties in the acquisition of land, I shall be asking the House for more powers to acquire land for the purposes I have mentioned.