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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Jun 1948

Vol. 111 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—National Teachers' Salaries.

At Question Time to-day I asked the Minister for Education:—

"Whether he is aware of the serious hardships imposed on national teachers by the delay in increasing their salaries and if he would establish the proposed arbitration board within a period of one month so that the claims of the teachers to an increase in their remuneration may be investigated, decided, and put into effect before the 1st day of October next."

To that question the Minister replied:—

"I have already indicated that it is intended to set up an arbitration board to which questions relating to the salaries of national teachers may be referred, but I cannot say at present when the board is likely to be formed."

I considered that answer unsatisfactory and I gave notice that I would raise it on the Adjournment. Quite recently we discussed the Estimates for the Department of Education and the debate on those Estimates was conducted on the basis that an arbitration board would be set up. That was the idea I had in mind during the debate and I think it was the idea that every other Deputy had who took part in the debate. When the Minister was replying he made this statement:—

"On the question of salaries, Deputy Butler seemed to issue some kind of challenge that something had been left undone in that matter. When the change of salaries was brought about at the end of 1946 it was stipulated in the provision then made that there would be a review of salary scales not later than November, 1949. Beyond whatever special things may arise in the meantime, I have not in mind that there would be a general review of the primary teachers' salaries between this and 1949, but I have in mind that the arbitration body that would act as a permanent piece of machinery, arbitrating in matters of salary or conditions of service for the primary teachers, would be set up possibly towards the end of this year, so that there would be plenty of time to have whatever considerations that are to be reviewed fully reviewed before the period contemplated in the last scheme will have concluded and, whatever changes in conditions of service or salary are going to be introduced, the teachers will be quite clear with regard to what these are by September, 1949, so that there will be no lag in any change that will then take place."

The reference to that is Volume 110, No. 16 of Dáil Debates of 26th May, 1948, columns 2237 and 2238.

That statement of the Minister's was like a douche of could water thrown down the backs of the teachers. In effect it was tantamount to saying to the teachers "live horse and you will get grass". Now, the Minister is aware, as this House is aware, that the matter of teachers' salaries has been engaging the attention of most public-spirited citizens of this State for a long period. When the teachers could not get redress in any other way they had to resort to strike action to draw attention to their grievances. In the Estimates for the Department of Education which were debated in this House at the time of the strike there was general sympathy expressed for the claims of the teachers. In the recent general election when the teachers took an active part in the campaign, the great majority of them, I am glad to say, on the side of Clann na Poblachta, they took that part for the purpose of bringing about a change of Government so that the matter of their salaries would receive immediate and sympathetic consideration. During the election campaign a circular was sent out by the teachers to the Leaders of all Parties. To the Leader of every Party contesting that general election a question was put. The question was this:—

"If returned, are you prepared to take steps to raise teachers' salaries to a level commensurate with their qualifications and the importance of their work?"

To that question the Minister, General Mulcahy, as Leader of the Fine Gael Party, answered "yes". Not only did he answer "yes" but he stated: "Among my other Dáil references to this matter see Dáil Debates, Vol. 96, No. 9, 27th April, 1945, columns 2643 to 2260." I am not going to read the Minister's, then Deputy General Mulcahy, indictment of his predecessor for his treatment of the teachers because I would not have time to do it. If any Deputy wants to read what the Minister, then Deputy General Mulcahy, thought about the teachers and their just claims at that time he can find it in the Dáil Debates to which I have referred. The same question was addressed to the Leader of the Labour Party, Mr. Norton, and he replied "yes". It was addressed to Mr. MacBride, the Leader of my Party, and he answered "yes". No answer was received to this circular apparently from either the Leader of Clann na Talmhan or from the Leader of National Labour. The circular was simply acknowledged by Mr. de Valera's private secretary.

There is no doubt whatever that when the strike ended in the way it did and when the teachers engaged in political action of a strong and earnest kind they did that in the belief that those promises made to them by the Leaders of these Parties were sincere and were intended. As far as I am concerned, standing as I did on Clann na Poblachta election platforms and advocating the claims of the teachers to an increase in their remuneration, I did that honestly and sincerely believing that if there were a change of Government the claims of the teachers would receive immediate consideration.

Now, the teachers issued a leaflet drawing attention to their salaries and that leaflet has been quoted in this House, certainly by Deputy Norton, the Leader of the Labour Party, because I read his contribution in the Official Debates to-day. It has been used also by other Deputies in this House. That would go to show that the salary scales offered to the teachers and upon which the teachers are existing at the moment are entirely inadequate. Taking into account the present-day cost of living, the maximum salary of the most efficient teacher with the longest service is very little more than £5 a week. Everybody realises the importance of the teachers to the community. We depend on the teachers to develop the character of our children. We depend on the teachers to train our children and to make good citizens of them. They take the place of the parents to a large extent. Teachers have always been held in an honourable position in this country and it is only right that that should be so. However, under the salary scales that are in operation at the moment and that have been in operation for some time past many teachers are unable to meet their obligations. Many teachers are unable to pay their way. Many of them are existing on money that they have borrowed from their friends, relatives, or somebody else. I know many cases of teachers with young families who in the years before the war were able to pay a small deposit on a house; who had received the balance of the money from a building society; who had stinted themselves repaying the amounts that were due on these building society loans and who, through the increase in their cost of living, were compelled either to sell their houses or to remortgage them for a higher mortgage and pay off out of the proceeds the smaller one. That in turn put them in the position of having greater expenditure.

When a person, no matter what walk of life he may be in, goes to the trouble of establishing a home in which to bring up his family, it is a very hard thing on him if he has to sell that home because he is not in a position to pay for it. I think it is a scandalous thing when the person involved is a national teacher, to whom the State owes so much, that that national teacher should have to deprive himself of his home simply because the State will not pay him enough wages on which to live. There is no use blinking the fact that in the teaching profession—and nobody has put this more strongly than the Minister for Education when he was a Deputy and Leader of the Opposition —some teachers have had to borrow money from moneylenders. That was explained to this House by Deputy General Mulcahy when he was Leader of the Opposition. There is no doubt that in this city teachers going to their work have received threatening letters from people to whom they owed money for household bills or something else. I am personally aware of cases where teachers have civil bill officers calling to their schools to serve civil bills on them, or the sheriff's officers calling about decrees that the sheriff wants to execute. How can a teacher teach and look after the children committed to his care if he or she is worried in that way? There is no doubt whatever that the position is as the Minister himself explained to this House two years ago when he was Leader of the Opposition. The position has not improved since. The position may even be worse to-day. I say that to put teachers in this position is a disgrace. For a government to do it is shameful. I think that one of the tests of good government is the just treatment of the teachers to whom we commit our children for their care and education in their earlier years.

To increase the salary of the teachers is a debt of honour to which this inter-Party Government is committed. It is no use for the Minister to say that he will increase the salaries in 1949, in September or October. During the period from now until October there will be many empty plates on teachers' tables. There will be many a teacher's child going around in the winter without sufficient or adequate or proper boots to wear. The Parties which compose this inter-Party Government have won a general election. We have won it through the instrumentality and the great assistance of the teachers. I repeat that it is a debt of honour and, as far as I am concerned, I want the Government and the Minister for Education to realise and understand that that debt of honour must be repaid.

Mr. A. Byrne

Hear, hear. I agree with you.

Deputy Cowan and myself seem to be in agreement on quite a number of points. First, I am very much in agreement with him when he says that my answer to-day was very unsatisfactory.

Hear, hear.

I entirely agree with that. I should very much like to have been able to give a more satisfactory answer. Perhaps the only point upon which I would mention disagreement with the Deputy at the present time is if he suggests that in the conduct of the debate on the Estimate I suggested otherwise than that the arbitration board would be set up at a rather later period than he expects now. I should like to disclaim any responsibility for not putting any cards in my hand on the table during the debate on the Estimates. I should like to emphasise that that is what I have been doing all along in these matters concerned with the teachers and that is what I want to do now. I am grateful for the raising of this matter by Deputy Cowan. I accept it as a kind of warning and a threat—and also from Deputy Byrne, if I interpret his interjection correctly—that he will see to it that nobody is going to be let sleep on the difficulties and disabilities under which the teachers work.

We are all personally aware that, in so far as the rates of salaries at present in operation for the teachers are concerned, they are such that the whole teaching fraternity of the City of Dublin went on strike against them; I am not forgetting that, and I do not propose to let anybody else forget it. I take it that Deputies are still carrying on their work in this House under the shadow of the bill that was presented to the House in the Budget and under the shadow of the discussions that have taken place on that. I have systematically set out, in relation to the body referred to here—that is, the primary teachers—to envisage all the difficulties under which they labour, which make their work and their conditions of working unsatisfactory to them and which, so far as monetary considerations go, make their lives difficult. I have put a certain number of things in order of precedence and I am tackling them as speedily and as effectively as I can. Quite a number of matters that there is no necessity for me to detail now have been satisfactorily settled, and that will make it possible for the teachers to carry out their work with less friction and irritation than was possible in the past.

There are two other matters that I desire particularly to deal with. If the arbitration board were there, I would like to see it go ahead and examine the problem that exists, but before any other moneys would be spent in connection with the pay and pensions of national teachers, before there was any change in this scale, there are two matters that I would like to see money spent on. One of these relates to the pensions of teachers. From what you see at the present time with regard to the financial position, there is no likelihood that the Minister for Finance in the current financial year will find any other substantial sums for disbursement in any way. I hope that it will be possible for me to deal with certain proposals with regard to pensions—pensions for teachers particularly.

There is another matter I want money spent on which is just developing at the present time. There would be no point in discussing it here, but if Deputies are interested in the position with regard to salaries and if they think it can be tackled in a piecemeal way, I would like them to look at document 11/46, published in September, 1946—New Scales of Salary and Other Grants for Teachers of National Schools. There you have a whole piece of a very intricate set of scales.

There are, I know, classes among the teachers that are more adversely affected by the pressure of these scales than others are, but I cannot see any opportunity in the immediate future of going in a piecemeal kind of way into the scales that are there. Any revision of these general scales must be left to such a body as is contemplated, when we say we will set up an arbitration board to deal with all these matters for the primary teachers in the future.

I ask Deputies who are concerned with the teachers and with their general scale of pay to realise that I am in constant full and frank discussion with their representatives; that I have discussed every single matter adversely affecting the teachers, either in their work or in their pay. I have discussed these matters in detail with them; my door is open and will remain open for constant touch on these things.

There is a certain number of things which, one by one, I am dealing with. I am particularly anxious that the teachers would be satisfied with their scales of pay, because I do not think you can have the atmosphere of our schools, or the whole educational atmosphere of the country, what it ought to be, with a warm, fostering effect on our education, if we have teachers teaching in the schools who are not able to maintain themselves in their homes and who are not able to maintain their families.

If Deputy Cowan is in touch with individual teachers or organised teachers and will consult and consider with them what are the things that are pressing on them and what is the cost of relieving them of these difficulties, I think he will get the situation into a better perspective and there will be less danger of his misunderstanding what I, as Minister for Education, and the Government, which he and his Party support, are trying to do for the teachers.

I do not think there is anything else I can say in reply to what the Deputy has raised, but I would like to assure him that I am in full contact with the teachers' organisation on this particular matter and that I am quite ready to have any aspect of the problems that are there fully and frankly discussed here. There are some things that, at the present moment, for diplomatic and other reasons, I am not able to discuss.

Does the Minister realise that so far as the unfortunate teachers are concerned his reply now will butter no parsnips for them this winter?

They have got promises.

There is a lot left in abeyance.

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