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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 1948

Vol. 111 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1948—Report.

I move:

In page 8, after paragraph (b) of Section 10 (4), line 41, to insert a new paragraph as follows:—

(c) Entertainments duty shall not be charged, levied or paid on any payments for admission on or after the operative date, to any entertainment consisting of the showing of 16 mm. films in a village hall, rural hall or travelling unit, duly registered with the Revenue Commissioners and subject to whatever conditions are required by an Order made under this Act.

I have put down this amendment in the form in which I thought it would be most acceptable to the Minister and to the Revenue Commissioners. I put it in this form in order to leave as open a door as possible for the Commissioners to make whatever regulations they may think would be necessary in order to guard against abuses. I understand that the abuses involved would be chiefly with regard to commercial undertakings taking advantage of any relief that might be given. If the form in which I have put it down is not acceptable but if the principle of the amendment is acceptable, I suggest that the Minister might deal with the matter when the Bill comes before the Seanad, as it can hardly be dealt with here now.

Since we discussed this matter before I have found considerable reaction in favour of the proposal from unexpected quarters not at all confined to any particular Party. The present position is such that the 16 mm. undertakings are actually going out of business altogether owing to the restrictive conditions. The renters rent their films according to two different methods. One is a flat rate. These small people who have undertakings of this kind found the flat rate too onerous. Other renters rent on the basis of 50 per cent. of the profits but, unfortunately, there is a revenue regulation which does not give relief in the case of educational and cultural films if the expenses exceed 50 per cent., with the result that it is impossible for people to take advantage of any relief that might be coming to them otherwise.

The effects of giving relief in this matter could be very great indeed. It gives an opportunity to individual effort. It would allow people who are imbued not by any commercial motive but by public spirit and who wish to give public service to their localities to make a modest amount of money which would help to build a hall or to purchase plant or even to purchase cameras and to make their own local films. Ultimately they would be of very great interest to the people in showing local history, local folklore and archæology. There could even be films of the comic and amusing kind. Local people would like to see themselves on the films. The thing is capable of being used to remove what has been called rural depression. I remember one lecturer saying that rural depression is mental depression. At least, this is one factor which has been realised in some places as helping greatly to remove that and also to remove one of the causes of emigration.

There are various bodies that have been interested and that would be very interested in the development of the 16 mm. film. For instance, the Gaelic League could use it as an instrument for creating a greater interest in the language. We are very often apt to scold people because they do not talk Irish. Irish is regarded by the children as having been a task at school. In that connection, no attempt has been made to use this instrument of films, which has been called by educational authorities the only adult education that takes place for the ordinary public. I remember one prominent educationist saying that the education of the country had passed out of the hands of educationists into the hands of people who make films. Certainly, it is true of the boys and girls who go to work early in life and have not the opportunities of other educational resources that their main mental pabulum is going to the films. Therefore, there is no sense in abusing people for going to the films or in abusing films. That is a purely negative attitude. We ought to be able to give the people something constructive, something they can do themselves. If they take an interest in local films, they will begin to take an interest in having films made for themselves. From that point of view it could be used as a very valuable instrument. Young farmers' clubs in many cases have instructional films which give them an opportunity of learning things which they otherwise would not get an opportunity of seeing in action. Muintir na Tíre for some time took up this idea and had to drop it because it did not pay. All these bodies which are non-political and which are interested in developing the amenities in rural life have in this instrument something they could use if they had this relief.

I do not think I need press the matter any further. If the amendment is not found verbally suitable, the Minister could take his own opportunity to adapt it and to give the relief which is asked for.

I would reinforce what Deputy Little has said in regard to this amendment. It seems to me it is one that could be accepted without involving the Central Fund in any great loss. The purpose which moves us in putting down the amendment is to try to provide for the position of those small rural areas where it is not possible to maintain a cinema in the same way as cinemas are maintained in the larger centres of population. We feel that it would be attractive, from the point of view of providing some of the amenities for the rural population which the urban populations enjoy, if they could cater for themselves in respect of cinema entertainments.

I am not a person who takes a very narrow or limited view in regard to dance halls, but there are people who think some alternative form of amusement to dance halls might be provided in country districts, and this is one of the things that suggest themselves to us. The amendment is drawn in such a way as to enable the Revenue Commissioners to draft regulations to prevent the concession given from being abused. A limitation could be imposed as to the size of the hall and as to the type of the programme. I do not, of course, think that a programme composed entirely of cultural or educational items would be a very popular one or unduly attractive, and, therefore, the purely entertainment aspect of the programme would have to be catered for. The amendment as drawn does permit a concession of this sort to be given within such limits as the Revenue Commissioners may devise with a view to protecting the revenue, but, at the same time, enabling the rural populations to enjoy one of the amenities at any rate which is a commonplace entertainment of the urban population.

The argument has got somewhat confused. As the amendment goes, it is related to any entertainment, as long as it is a 16 mm. film and on the amendment that would be exempt. If that is the suggestion, it should be put forward with the realisation that that is what is the effect of this amendment. As I say, the argument has been confused because reference has been made to cultural and educational films and films of that sort. The situation at the moment is that if the show consists of films which are of an educational type, there is an exemption.

There is a provision in regard to expenses.

I am not speaking of the object to which the proceeds may be devoted. If the film is educational and if nothing but educational films be shown, there is no question of expenses, there is exemption. There are certain shows with regard to certain film entertainments, which may be regarded as being for the promotion of the Irish language. Again, it is not a question of the proceeds being devoted to anything; that is a question of exemption and there is provision enough for that. There are then certain exemptions which are permissible where the proceeds are allocated in a particular way, and there the question of expenses may come in. But that is not being discussed here. The Deputy did bring in the film which was for entertainment—this was the purport of his remarks—to enliven the countryside.

A mixture.

In any event, entertainment comes in. I do not know to whom the Deputy was referring when he spoke of people who abuse the films. I do not abuse people who go to films, or abuse the use of films, and certainly not in relation to the office that I hold. What I am asked to do here is to provide that there is to be no entertainment duty as long as—I am summarising the amendment—the entertainment consists of the showing of 16 mm. films, and as long as they are shown in a village or rural hall or by a travelling unit.

That would all be subject to the regulations to be made.

But you cannot leave it that way. The Oireachtas ought to decide the regulations or give some direction with regard to the regulations. Regulations could be made in such a way as to negative completely the amendment.

One could drop the travelling unit.

On the Committee Stage, the stress was mainly put on the travelling unit.

No, on the hall.

If I have to take the mobile unit which goes around the rural areas I must say that I do not accept the Deputy's contention that it is not a paying proposition. There have been indications recently that the owners of some of those mobile units have extended the area over which they work. Quite clearly they would not do that unless they had discovered it to be profitable to do so and, apparently, it was profitable when the tax was heavier than it is now being made.

That was not the information that I got from some people who are interested in this. I was told that they were extending their area because they were not making money.

We have information about certain mobile units where the circuit has been extended. However, I do not think any firm conclusion can be founded on the fact that the mobile unit as such does not pay. I cannot say that this matter has been thoroughly investigated. It is a rather new proposal. There has not been time to get it investigated and all its reactions looked into. The areas one might take to measure the effect of the amendment would be areas in which the admission charges would be very low. Consequently, the tax would be very low. If the answer is made to me that there would be no great loss of revenue I would have to admit that if my premise is correct.

This amendment introduced a differentiation between the countryside and the towns, and at the moment I am not prepared to accept it. I do not know what the reactions of it are, how far it would go, what reservations would have to be made or what type of regulations or conditions would have to be put into the Order. The most that I can say to the Deputy is that the matter can be examined, not, however, with a view to its being thought of this year though it may be later. I am not making any promises in that regard. Investigation may show me that it would be quite impossible to carry out such a proposal. In any event one would need to have a case made for it in a more emphatic way before this principle of differentiation should be allowed. If it were allowed with regard to one thing it would be pressed in regard to other things.

Perhaps the Minister may change his mind before he goes to the Seanad with the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

With regard to the final stage, I understand the arrangement is to take it to-night at 8 o'clock.

I did not know that.

It would be more convenient for me to have the final stage now, but I am quite prepared to be here at 8 o'clock.

I do not wish to be obstructive. If that is the arrangement, I agree. I asked Deputy Kissane if there was an arrangement to take the Final Stage to-day and he said no. But, in view of what has been said, I agree that the Final Stage be taken later.

Agreed.

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