Social Welfare (Reciprocal Arrangements) Bill, 1948—Second Stage.

Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Norton)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The purpose of the Bill is, in fact, set out in Section 2, where it is indicated that its general purpose is to enable reciprocal arrangements to be made covering the field of national health insurance, unemployment insurance, widows' and orphans' pensions insurance and insurance arising out of industrial injuries. The need for reciprocity in these matters arises chiefly in relation to Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In Great Britain and Northern Ireland, comprehensive social service legislation becomes operative as from Monday next, 5th July, and the desire here is to achieve the maximum measure of reciprocity in relation to the social legislation in operation in these two areas. The House will appreciate that the measure of reciprocity which is possible is related very largely to the comparable character of the respective social services. In the past, we have had reciprocity in respect to national health insurance but that reciprocity ends on Monday next with the coming into operation of the British and Northern Ireland Acts. This Bill, therefore, is necessary, and in fact urgently necessary, to ensure the continuance of that particular reciprocity on a broader basis. Discussions have already taken place with representatives of the Northern Ireland and British Ministries on the subject of reciprocity in general.

We hope to conclude at an early date an agreement with the British Government and Northern Ireland in respect of national health insurance, not merely as it operated in the past, but at the outset on a wider plane. In respect of unemployment insurance, there is no reciprocity at present, and there has been no reciprocity in the past, but an effort has been made to effect reciprocal arrangements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the future. Discussions on that subject have already taken place, but it has proved somewhat difficult up to the present to effect satisfactory reciprocal arrangements. I am hopeful, however, that the character of the discussions are such that it will still be possible to effect reciprocal arrangements on a mutually satisfactory basis and that these arrangements in relation to unemployment insurance and national health insurance will do much to safeguard the interest of insured contributors, passing from employment in one country to another.

In respect to widows' and orphans' pensions, there is not and there has not been reciprocity, and the disparity between our existing scheme and the British scheme which will come into operation on Monday next, is such that I feel it will not be possible to effect any such reciprocal arrangements until such time as we have introduced a comprehensive social services Bill in this country.

In respect of workmen's compensation rights, there has been no reciprocity and none is extant to-day. The difficulty in respect of reciprocal arrangements in the case of workmen's compensation is further intensified by the fact that the new British scheme is a State scheme on an insurance basis, whereas our legislation in respect to compensation is not on an insurance basis and is, in fact, privately administered through insurance companies. It may, however, be possible to effect reciprocity with Britain and Northern Ireland when the new comprehensive social insurance scheme has been passed into law. In the meantime there is just a possibility that it may be possible to effect some measure of reciprocity in the procedural aspect of the respective schemes of workmen's compensation in the two countries.

This Bill is merely an enabling Bill, designed to effect the conclusion of reciprocal arrangements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and this country. It carries reciprocity and social insurance a stage further. I feel sure that it is the view of the House that it is desirable to effect reciprocity on these matters in the interests of our own citizens who have occasion to seek employment outside the State and this Bill is designed to safeguard their interests in that respect. I commend it to the House with a feeling of confidence that the House will be glad to avail of this opportunity of enacting such legislation.

Dr. Ryan

As the Minister said, this is an enabling Bill and, it being such, I am quite sure that no Deputy in the House has any wish either to oppose or to delay the Bill. The Minister has made a point for urgency inasmuch as even the present reciprocity regarding national health cannot be continued beyond the 5th July. I would be glad of a little more information from the Minister as to how the discussions with regard to reciprocity have been proceeding between Britain and Northern Ireland on the one hand and our own Government on the other hand. There were fairly protracted discussions in this city last October or November at which this Government was represented and also the Governments of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I met the delegates and saw the report of the proceedings at the time, and it appeared to me that very good progress was made. The delegates from the other Governments felt that they needed to report back before they could make any further progress and I would like the Minister to give us some information as to whether those difficulties have been got over regarding national health and unemployment insurance. The Minister says that the difficulties are almost insurmountable under present conditions with regard to widows' and orphans' pensions, but it would be well if we had even unemployment insurance covered because there are more cases under that than under widows' and orphans' pensions, although there may be more hardship in some cases under widows' and orphans' pensions than under unemployment.

Apart from that, I have come across cases myself as a Deputy of people who got retired allowances—which is now used instead of old age pensions—in England, women especially, natives of this country, who worked for many years in England. Evidently, this is not payable if they come back to their own country and the same, I think, applies in the case of workmen's compensation. That is not going to the full extent of reciprocity, and I was wondering if the Minister had made any attempt to make an agreement with Great Britain regarding those in receipt of old age pensions or retiring allowances or in receipt of workmen's compensation. It could be made payable even if the persons concerned lived outside their own country, that is, Irish people living in England or English people living in Ireland. I have no desire whatever to hold up this Bill and I hope that the Minister will get the Dáil to agree to have this Bill passed as speedily as possible, but I would like to get a little further information on these points.

Mr. Moran

I would like some information from the Minister with regard to workmen's compensation. It has been the practice with the people on the other side of the water if an Irish workman who happens to be injured over there comes back here the compensation is automatically stopped. I do not know if any legislation is necessary to cure that position. I think it is just a cheap trick availed of by employers on the other side. When Irish workers meet with an accident they have to return home as there are often delays in the payment of compensation and they cannot live, they cannot pay their "digs" and must return to their farms, but when they come back here, they find that they will not get compensation and they are compelled to go back again. I do not know if the Minister can do anything about that or if that matter is dealt with in this Bill. I would also like the Minister in this Bill to arrange with the people on the other side to have dependency determined here in the Irish courts where compensation is payable under the Workmen's Compensation Act. It would avoid a lot of trouble which now exists between the two countries.

Mr. Lynch

I think in his statement the Minister made rather a mistake in regard to one question when he said that there was no reciprocity affecting workmen's compensation at present. Deputy Moran pointed out that there is an arrangement at present in so far as the sums payable on the death of workmen in this country are transferred. Deputy Moran asked that these sums should be allocated in the Irish courts but, as far as I know under the present arrangement, the sums are allocated in the Irish courts and according to Irish law.

Mr. Moran

In some cases; not in all.

Captain Cowan

There are cases here in Dublin every day.

Mr. Lynch

There is one deficiency in the arrangement as I see it at present. The sum is paid into the English court and then transferred to the Irish Circuit Court. It has then to be administered and allocated under the jurisdiction of our court, but there is no provision for the payment of costs incurred by the dependents of the deceased workmen. I urge on the Minister, so far as that particular aspect of the case is concerned, that in making the new arrangement with the British Government he should provide, in the event of money being allocated amongst dependents in Ireland, that a sum for costs should be provided for the allocation of the money in the Irish courts. Under the present arrangement, if a sum of £600 is sent over, the solicitor has to be paid out of that, thereby reducing the sum payable to the dependents. In many cases solicitors themselves suffer, because I have known cases where they have not accepted costs. I urge on the Minister that this deficiency in the present arrangements should be looked into.

Mr. Larkin

All Parties in the House have been waiting hopefully for quite a considerable time for some measure of success to be achieved in regard to reciprocity. Both the previous and the present Government have been exercising every effort to achieve that end. Not only do we all welcome the Bill, but we shall try to help the Minister and it is hoped that we shall achieve some result very shortly. There is one particular feature to which I ask the Minister to give attention. Under the terms of the Bill, powers are given to the Minister to make Orders in order to give effect to the agreement in respect of reciprocity. As the actual contents of these Orders will contain what one might call the meat of any reciprocal scheme, I think he should consider making information available to the Dáil by means of laying the Orders on the Table of the House, so that the details of the agreement will be available for discussion. As the Bill stands, the matter is one of administration and Orders by the Minister. Quite a number of Deputies would be interested in the actual details of any agreement which the Minister may succeed in arriving at.

Reference has been made by Deputy Dr. Ryan to the hardship arising in cases under the widows and orphans code. I wonder would it be possible, if agreement is reached, to try to achieve some measure of retrospective effect with regard to these widows and orphans. In the case of men in regard to unemployment benefit there is hardship undoubtedly, but at least they are still in a position to make some effort to obtain other means to support themselves.

In the case of widows and orphans, they are deprived of their breadwinner and, in the ordinary way, would be dependent on such payments as would come to them out of the fund. It seems particularly hard that, merely because there has been such great difficulty in arriving at an agreement, they should be denied the benefit of that agreement because it comes into force on a particular date. If, even from a human point of view, it would be possible to give it retrospective effect, it would bring in a number of these cases and deal with the particular type of cases to which Deputy Dr. Ryan has referred.

So far as workmen's compensation is concerned, there is a difficulty in regard to the lack of full reciprocity with reference to weekly payments of compensation. Of course, I think that arises under the basis of the workmen's compensation code which exists in this country at present and existed in England until the new Act was introduced. There is also the fact that it is based on a private system of insurance and, therefore, requires, from the point of view of those carrying the insurance responsibility, compliance with certain provisions laid down. As there is now a State scheme about to come into operation in England, it is possible that in this country we may also take a more modern outlook in this matter of compensation. It would be much easier to reconcile the two systems by a satisfactory reciprocal arrangement. While the present disparity between the two systems exists, there seems to be a difficulty in regard to dealing with the cases of Irish citizens injured in the United Kingdom. There may be a difficulty which calls for a certain reciprocal arrangement on our side which we may not be in a position to arrive at because of the fact that the actual payments of workmen's compensation and the carrying out of the machinery of the scheme are largely a matter of private commercial enterprise. It is only effective when it actually comes into court. That may be a difficulty which we may find some means of getting over. These are matters which will have to be dealt with in detail when the Minister is empowered under this Bill to give attention to them. I suggest, however, that Section 3, under which the Minister is empowered to make certain Orders, should be amended so as to make available to the Dáil at the earliest possible moment the actual details of the Orders made from time to time.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

One Deputy referred to the fact that workers in England in receipt of workmen's compensation leaving England and returning here very often find their compensation suspended. That is a rather important matter. Deputies should realise that there is a similar provision here in the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1934, whereby any worker in receipt of compensation who leaves this country finds his right to compensation suspended. It is obvious that the Act of 1934 in that respect and in other sections is merely a copy, word for word, of the English statute.

I suggest to the Minister that, if reciprocal arrangements are being made, this matter of compensation should be investigated and, if necessary, the provision of the Act of 1934 providing for the suspension of compensation should be amended, because I cannot see how such an arrangement can be made if the English Act provides for suspension if the worker leaves England and the Irish Act provides for suspension if the worker leaves Ireland. I suggest to the Minister that he should consider an amendment along these lines.

Captain Cowan

On behalf of my Party I want to express agreement with the suggestion made by Deputy Larkin in regard to Orders made under this section. If these Orders are laid on the Table, anyone interested—and a number of us will be interested—will know what is going on. I agree with Deputy Dr. Ryan that the House would be anxious to give these powers to the Minister so that the difficulties that would be in the way could be cleared up in a couple of days. The other matters mentioned are matters to be dealt with on the general Bill which the Minister has indicated he hopes to bring in at an early date.

Mr. Norton

Deputy Ryan inquired as to progress of the negotiations which were taking place between representatives of this Government and representatives of the Governments of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Deputy is aware that negotiations took place last year and, since then, negotiations have taken place in London and in Dublin. As a result of these negotiations I think we are now on the eve of being able to conclude an arrangement with the British and Northern Ireland Governments for reciprocity in respect of national health insurance benefit and maternity benefit on a somewhat altered basis. Generally speaking, I think the arrangements are as satisfactory as we can make them.

In respect to unemployment insurance benefit and reciprocity arising therefrom, we have endeavoured to get from the British authorities especially a certain measure of agreement to which we feel very definitely we are entitled. But so far it has not been possible to induce them to agree to as much as we claim. That has held up the negotiations somewhat but as a result of the last discussions I think their offer was improved. I still do not think it is as good an offer as we are entitled to expect from them in all the circumstances and further negotiations will take place on that aspect of the matter. As the Deputy has rightly pointed out, that is probably the most important aspect of reciprocity because of the interlaced character of employment between this country and Great Britain. Once we get this Bill through, once we can provide for the continuance of reciprocity in the field of national insurance we can concentrate as a priority problem on the question of completing arrangements for reciprocity in the field of unemployment insurance. I am not without hope that we will be able to arrive at a measure of agreement in respect of the reciprocal arrangements between the two countries.

Deputies Moran and Lynch raised the question of reciprocity in respect of workmen's compensation. I take it that they are referring to the provision whereby sums of money awarded in Great Britain may be transferred here for administration purposes by the Irish court. I am aware of the fact that that takes place but that is not reciprocity in the sense in which it is generally known and understood. It is a mere court arrangement in the main.

The reciprocity which we have in mind is the type of reciprocity which would enable a workman to get either in the country of his employment or in the country in which he is resident, the latter being his home country—the benefits and the full benefits of workmen's compensation as applied to the citizens of the country in which that Workmen's Compensation Act was introduced. As the Deputy will appreciate that gives the workman very much wider rights than is possible under the arrangement which is now in operation and which is on an extremely limited basis—not reciprocal in character in the sense in which reciprocity is understood in this Bill. There are very considerable difficulties in effecting a scheme of reciprocity with two schemes which are entirely dissimilar in character and in which the scales of benefit are different and where one scheme is operated by the State and the other scheme is operated by an insurance company. Those who have given any consideration to the matter will appreciate the enormous difficulties which arise there in effecting a satisfactory scheme of reciprocity. Until such time as the schemes are substantially comparable, I do not think it will be possible to effect the detailed reciprocity that will be possible in respect of national health insurance and in respect of unemployment insurance. We may, however, find it possible to effect a limited measure of reciprocity as to the times at which payments will be made, how they will be made and when they will be made, in that way minimising the difficulties as far as possible for the injured workman.

In the long run we can only get real reciprocity in this matter when we get two comparable schemes for insuring workmen. Then and only then can we get a really satisfactory reciprocity scheme. However, bearing in mind the existing difficulties, we will endeavour to get such measure of reciprocity on the procedural elements in the matter of workmen's compensation as may be found possible in the discussion with the British authorities. The Deputy must realise that so far as we are concerned in this country we are not administering workmen's compensation at all. That is administered by private insurance companies whereas the British Government is administering a State-constructed scheme. Our position is, therefore, not as strong as it would be if we had a State scheme for injured workmen. Deputies Larkin and Cowan raised a question about making provision whereby any Orders made under Section 3 of the Bill will be laid on the Table of the House. I am prepared to meet that situation by introducing an amendment providing that every Order under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made. If that satisfies the Deputies I am willing to introduce an amendment on the Committee Stage to that effect.

Agreed to take the Committee Stage to-day.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 1 Jul 1948

Social Welfare (Reciprocal Arrangements) Bill, 1948—Second Stage.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Jul 1948