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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 1948

Vol. 111 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote 68—Health.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £615,590 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1949, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health, and certain Services administered by that Office, including Grants to Local Authorities, miscellaneous Grants and a Grant-in-Aid, and certain Charges connected with Hospitals.

Before I proceed with a review of the events of the past year and an explanation of the Estimate before the House, I think it is desirable that I should mention a few important items under the head of Vital Statistics.

The number of births registered in 1947 was 68,602, which was 680 more than in 1946 and 1,741 more than in 1945. The birth rate per 1,000 of the estimated population was 23.1, compared with 22.9 for 1946 and 22.4 for 1945. The rates in Northern Ireland, Scotland, and England and Wales for 1947 were 23.3, 22.0 and 20.5, respectively.

The number of marriages registered during 1947 was 16,300—a decrease of 1,225 on the number for 1946 which, however, was the highest recorded since 1878. The 1947 rate was 5.5 per 1,000 of the population in 1946. The rates in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England and Wales for 1947 were 7.1, 8.6 and 9.3 respectively.

The highest marriage rates occur in the cities of Limerick, Cork and Dublin in that order. Counties Dublin and Tipperary had the highest marriage rates in rural areas. The lowest marriage rates occurred in Counties Laoighis, Mayo and Limerick. It should be remembered, of course, that some country weddings are solemnised in the cities and are registered there.

The number of deaths registered during the year was 44,135 or 2,678 more than in 1946. The death rate was 14.9 per 1,000 of the population as against 14.0 in 1946, 14.5 in 1945 and 15.3 in 1944. Deaths from cancer and tuberculosis were among the highest contributing factors. Provisional figures show that the total number of deaths from cancer was 3,773 or 251 less than in the previous year. The total number of deaths from all forms of tuberculosis is provisionally estimated at 3,634, which shows an increase of 244 over 1946.

During the year the number of deaths of children under one year registered was 4,597 as against 4,390 in 1946 and 4,739 in 1945.

Infant mortality has averaged the regrettably high figure of 71.2 per 1,000 live births for the ten years from 1937 to 1946. The figure for 1947 was 67. For 1947 the rate was 53 in Northern Ireland, 41 in England and Wales and 56 in Scotland.

The average rate for the four county boroughs was very much in excess of that for the country as a whole. The infant mortality rate per 1,000 live births decreased in Dublin from 117 in 1944 to 92 in 1946, in Cork from 108 to 61, in Limerick from 123 to 69 and in Waterford from 80 to 66. These figures are still excessive, however, and effective steps must be taken to bring about a reduction.

The number of deaths from diarrhoea and enteritis in infants under two years of age throughout the country as a whole, fell from 1,233 in 1943 to 734 last year while in Dublin County Borough the number fell from 573 in 1943 to 282 last year. It is not possible at this stage to state, with any real assurance, the cause of this decrease, which might be due to a reduction in the virulence of the disease in the past year. It is, however, only fair to state that in recent years there has been an intensification of measures to combat the disease, including, in Dublin, a special gastro enteritis section under the control of the corporation and the provision of special hospital facilities at St. Clare's, under the control of the Dublin Board of Assistance.

During the year 1947 the number of cases of the principal infectious diseases (typhus, typhoid, diphtheria and scarlet fever) notified was 2,697, which represents a continuance of the downward trend in the incidence of these diseases—in 1943 the number of notifications was 7,269. Better still, the number of deaths has declined from 400 in 1943 to 77 last year, of which 55 were due to diphtheria, 16 to typhoid and the remaining six to scarlet fever. For the third successive year no case of typhus occurred.

The number of cases of diphtheria notified was 4,583 in 1943, 5,086 in 1944, 4,177 in 1945, 1991 in 1946, and 851 last year. This fall must, in large measure, be due to the operation of immunisation schemes. Facilities for free immunisation are now made available by all health authorities throughout the country and parents should realise the great life-saving gift that is there for the taking. I regret that, after the great spurt made during the war years, there has been a falling off in the number of immunisations, but I am hopeful that the recent satisfactory settlement with the Medical Association regarding remuneration for this service will bring about a great increase in the number in the current and future years, with a consequent further decline in the incidence of the disease.

A separate Department of Health was established in an attempt to provide the country with a proper standard of health services. I would like at this stage to review briefly the activities of the Department throughout the year.

The Health Act, 1947, was enacted last summer. Certain of its provisions are not acceptable to the Government and it is intended to introduce legislation at an early date to repeal or amend them. Section 25, for instance, provides for compulsory medical inspection of children in certain circumstances. Section 26 gives health authorities power to require school managers to provide facilities for school medical inspection. The remainder of the Act has been brought into operation.

Much has already been done to provide the services authorised by the Oireachtas under the Act. Part II of the Act which is a consolidation of the law relating to health institutions will simplify to some extent the procedure in dealing with the provision of new sanatoria and other health institutions.

There has been a certain amount of discussion on Part III of the Act, which gives health authorities wide powers to provide health services for mothers and children. While I am satisfied that the main purpose of this Part of the Act should be implemented, I have not made up my mind as to the exact method of providing the mother and child service and am awaiting the outcome of the deliberations of the council which I have recently established to advise me on matters relating to child health. In the meantime, arrangements have been made to continue existing services under temporary regulations made under Part III of the Act.

Part IV of the Act codifies the law relating to the prevention of the spread of infectious diseases and includes new provisions in relation to infestation. Regulations have been made under this Part of the Act to replace all the previous regulations dealing with infectious disease. The Infectious Diseases (Maintenance) Regulations, 1948, also made under this Part of the Act, provide for the payment of allowances to persons suffering from certain infectious diseases and are of prime importance in the fight to eradicate tuberculosis in particular. There can be no doubt that in the case of this disease, lack of means and economic insufficiency have been a major impediment to early diagnosis and effective and lasting cure. As is the case with most new schemes, difficulties have arisen in the administration of the regulations. The whole position will be examined in the light of practical experience.

Under Part IV of the Act, as supplemented by regulations, we shall be in a position also to tackle more satisfactorily the problem of venereal disease. No accurate information has up to the present been available on the incidence of this disease and the readiness of persons suffering from it to undergo treatment. As an experiment, arrangements have been made whereby a medical practitioner who diagnoses a case of venereal disease will notify the chief medical officer of the county without divulging the name or address of the patient. Thus a fairly accurate idea of the number of sufferers from this disease coming to the notice of medical practitioners will be obtained. Three months after notification the medical practitioner must indicate to the chief medical officer whether or not the patient has been adequately treated. This will give some idea as to the willingness of persons to take treatment. This confidential system of notifications and reports will, I hope, enable us to form a better picture of the prevalence of the disease and to make arrangements for its treatment accordingly. It is fully appreciated that there is a delicacy of public opinion and a sensitiveness on the part of patients and full recognition of these factors is being accorded in the proposed arrangements for case-finding and treatment which I have just outlined.

Part V of the Health Act gives the Minister wide powers to arrange for the control, from the health point of view, of the manufacture, preparation, importation and distribution of food and drink intended for human consumption. Arrangements have been made to obtain detailed information on the health control of food preparations, etc., in Great Britain and elsewhere. When the investigations have been completed, it is hoped to produce a set of regulations which will ensure that food intended for human consumption in the home or in public eating-places has been hygienically prepared and handled and is of good quality.

So much for the Health Act itself.

The passing of the Health Services (Financial Provisions) Act, 1947, involved a fairly radical change in the system previously in operation for the making of State grants in aid of the expenditure of local authorities on health services. The full expansion of the health services would have imposed a severe strain on the finances of health authorities if no change had been made. The Act provides that the State will bear the increased cost incurred by a health authority in the expansion of health services over and above the expenditure on recognised health services in the financial year 1947-48 until such time as the State contribution equals the expenditure of the health authority. Thereafter, the cost will be equally borne by central and local funds. The method of recouping health authorities for health expenditure has also been simplified. State grants were hitherto paid from various sources for specific health services to different categories of local authorities. From the 1st April last, a single grant will be paid which will replace all previous grants in aid of expenditure on health services.

I should say a word about the Mental Treatment Act, 1945, which was brought into operation on 1st January, 1947. Among other things it simplified the procedure for the reception of patients, and provided for the reception of voluntary patients and temporary patients as well as persons of unsound mind. The new procedure aims at encouraging patients to seek treatment in the early stages of illness and the results so far achieved are encouraging. The admissions in the year 1947 included 442 voluntary patients and 706 temporary patients. Among the latter class are included 36 "addicts". Discharges during the year included 253 voluntary patients and 279 temporary patients.

I do not wish to extend indefinitely the litany of the various health measures taken in 1947-48 but I feel I should mention the following:—

Measures were taken to empower local authorities to provide for producing immunity from infection with enteric fever.

Rat extermination measures have been under consideration for some time and at the request of my Department the Dublin health authorities have been making a detailed study of the question of control of rat infestation and of measures in operation elsewhere.

Refresher courses were arranged for general trained nurses and public health nurses, while a number of medical superintendent officers of health and county and assistant medical officers of health availed themselves of the facilities provided for attendance at a course of lectures on educationally sub-normal children and mental defectives which was held in London.

Following a recommendation from the Hospitals Commission, approval was given to the making of a grant to the Medical Research Council of £10,000 per annum from the Hospitals Trust Fund for a period of five years from 1st January, 1948, for general research. The grant previously made was at the rate of £5,000 per annum. Approval was also given to the payment to the Hospital Library Council of a grant of £3,000 in respect of the present year to meet the needs of the council, which deals with the distribution of books to patients in hospitals and sanatoria. The grant paid last year was £2,437.

Under the provisions of Part IV of the Local Government Act, 1941, the Dublin Fever Hospital Board was due for reconstitution before the 27th April of this year. The necessary steps for the restoration of the board were put in train before the expiration of that period and the board held its first meeting on the 12th April last.

I think I should at this stage explain to the House the details of the Estimate for the current year. I should perhaps first say that I had the Estimate as originally framed carefully examined with a view to seeing whether any economies could properly be effected. I found, however, that I could not ask the House to make less adequate provision than had been envisaged. In fact, it is necessary to introduce a Supplementary Estimate to meet the estimated cost of the proposed publicity campaign to which I shall refer presently.

The increases under sub-head A (Salaries, Wages and Allowances) and sub-head B (Travelling Expenses) are attributable to the additional staff which is required at headquarters to deal with the greatly extended functions to be discharged. Sub-heads C and D do not call for comment.

Provision is made under sub-head E for payment of the annual subscription to the International Office of Public Health, Paris (£254). The functions of this office are in course of transfer to the World Health Organisation. Members of the World Health Organisation are the States of the United Nations and such other States, including our own, as have expressed a desire to participate in international efforts to secure the highest possible standard of health. The expenses of the organisation will be met by the member States in accordance with a scale to be fixed. It is, therefore, necessary to make provision under this sub-head towards the sum which later will be levied on this country. In addition, provision is made for the expenses of Irish delegations to meetings of the organisation.

One of the objects of the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations is to raise the levels of nutrition and standards of living. This country is a member of the organisation and the provision under the sub-head is for the purpose of meeting the expenses of the member of the staff of my Department who is nominated as a member of the Irish delegation to conferences held by the organisation.

A national nutrition survey is at present in progress for the purpose of formulating plans to meet possible deficiencies in the standards of nutrition in different sections of the community and the expenses involved are met from sub-head G (3). The survey consists of a dietary survey and a clinical survey.

The dietary survey commenced in April, 1946, and the field work is being carried out under the supervision of a medical officer of my Department, by a team of 12 specially trained investigators. The survey in respect of Dublin City and the other county boroughs and large towns and certain districts on the western coast is complete, and work is proceeding in country areas. Out of a total "target" number of 2,800 families, about 2,500 have been completely surveyed and I expect that this part of the work should be completed before the end of the year. It is only right that I should here, publicly, express my appreciation of the very generous co-operation of the vast majority of the householders approached by the investigators. The statistical analysis of the information obtained in respect of Dublin County Borough is practically completed and it will be possible to make the results available in the near future.

The clinical survey was begun in February, 1947. It is proposed that about 16,500 children will be examined in addition to adolescents and about 500 expectant or nursing mothers. Considerable progress has been made and I expect that this part of the work will be completed by the end of 1948.

I have already explained the purpose of the Health Services (Financial Provisions) Act which was passed last year. The grants to be paid under this Act will be met from sub-head H and will be paid in respect of expenditure on all recognised health services. They replace the percentage grants for free milk, maternity and child welfare, school medical service, tuberculosis and venereal disease and other special grants which were paid from the local taxation account for health services. The sum included in the sub-head may therefore be divided between replacements of existing subventions and increases represented by the excess of the 1948-49 expenditure over that for 1947-48. The total expenditure on health services for the year 1947-48 is estimated to be £5,280,000. Of this £4,450,000 was met from the rates and £830,000 from State grants. This sum of £830,000 paid from State grants is included in the provision under the sub-head. The total estimated expenditure on health services for the year 1948-49 is £5,976,000. The difference between this and the total for the year 1947-48 (£696,000) is also included in the grant. The total amount payable in respect of the year 1948-49 is therefore estimated to be £1,526,000. As we will not know until after the end of March, 1949, when the accounts have been audited, what exactly is payable to each health authority, it is proposed to pay within the present year instalments amounting to 95 per cent. of the estimated amount due and to pay the balance after the receipt of the auditor's certificates in the following year. The amount included in the sub-head is therefore 95 per cent. of £1,562,000 or £1,450,000. The increase of £696,000 in this year's expenditure as compared with last year's, is accounted for by increases in salaries of local officers, by increased charges for institutional services and by the proposed expansion of the health services, particularly the tuberculosis service.

In previous years, all expenditure from the Vote on mother and child services was met from a single sub-head. In the present year, it has been necessary to make a change because, as explained, all expenditure by local authorities on health services is "lumped" for the purposes of State grant, and the State subvention towards the expenditure of local authorities on mother and child services is included in the provision in sub-head H. Certain voluntary agencies, for instance, district nursing associations, provide, outside local authority schemes, services to mothers and children in respect of which grants are made and provision for these grants is contained in sub-head I.

The grant provided for in sub-head J is a contribution towards the expenses of the establishment and maintainance of a non-profit-making body to provide a national blood transfusion service. An advisory committee established at the end of 1946 reported that immediate steps should be taken for the establishment of a limited liability company to deal with the proposed organisation and that its replacement by a statutory body could be considered later in the light of experience gained.

It is, therefore, proposed to establish a company on a non-profit-making basis to be called the national blood transfusion association. The association will be limited by guarantee and will not have share capital or power to distribute profits. The functions of the association will be to organise and maintain throughout the country panels of donors, both directly and by the provision of financial and other assistance to local committees which can be satisfactorily integrated with the national service; the maintenance of a blood bank in Dublin and the provision of arrangements for the storage of serum; the carrying out of the necessary tests of donors in all areas; arrangements for the payment of donors, and the fixing of charges for whole blood and blood derivatives supplied to hospitals and local authorities. For some time at least the association will probably experience a deficit in its accounts and a grant-in-aid of about £5,500 per annum will probably be needed. The provision made under this year's sub-head, however, includes all the expenditure incidental to the establishment of the company and should be reduced considerably next year.

Provision is made under sub-head L for the payment of grants in recoupment of expenditure by health authorities under approved regulations by way of payment and maintenance and other allowances in the year ended 31st March last in respect of persons suffering from certain infectious diseases. Expenditure by local authorities in the current financial year on this service will be recouped from sub-head H (Grants to Health Authorities).

The remaining sub-heads (M (1) to M (5)) represent anticipated payments of grants in respect of the balances payable to local authorities arising out of expenditure in previous years on maternity and child welfare schemes, free milk, school medical service schemes, prevention and treatment of tuberculosis and treatment of venereal disease.

The last sub-head in the Estimate relates to Appropriations-in-Aid. The major item (£312,000) comprises the payments formerly made from the local taxation account to local authorities in respect of health services and which are diverted to the Vote under the Health Services (Financial Provisions) Act, 1947. As explained in connection with sub-head H, the subvention made by way of these grants to local authorities will be replaced in the grant to be provided under that Act.

This, perhaps, is the appropriate stage at which to refer to some matters connected with the Hospitals Trust Fund. I do not propose to attempt to remove the many misconceptions which have grown up round it and will confine myself to a few observations on the problem of the deficits on the working of the voluntary hospitals, which are met from it, and on its capacity to support an extensive building programme, and then pass to a review of hospital building prospects in the near future.

On the question of deficits, the present position is that 55 hospitals are participating in the sweepstake funds. In 1946 the deficit amounted to £237,624. The amount of the deficits which the fund was called on to meet in 1939 was £156,975, so that there has been an increase of £80,649, or 51.4 per cent. between 1939 and 1946. I understand, moreover, that the figure for 1947 is likely to be in the neighbourhood of £340,000. While I am aware that the increased deficits, or at any rate a considerable proportion of their total, arise from causes outside the control of the various hospitals, the total figure now involved, coupled with the steadily rising trend, is a matter of the gravest concern. Roughly speaking, it is necessary to invest a capital sum equivalent to the total amount of sweepstake moneys at present in hand, in round figures £10,000,000, to produce an annual income sufficient to pay the existing deficits (without making any allowance for further increase) and the other recurring annual charges on the Hospitals Trust Fund. This in itself might not be a cause for anxiety if the annual accretion to the fund represented by the proceeds of the sweepstakes were maintained at a level sufficient to enable us to keep the building programme moving at a satisfactory rate.

The available evidence is that it must be financed by drawing on the capital sum which, as mentioned, is barely sufficient to produce an income equivalent to the present annual charges. The ultimate effect of this process may be that it will no longer be possible to pay annual deficits of unlimited magnitude. The whole position is under examination in connection with the building programme, but in the meantime everybody concerned in the management of institutions whose deficits are met from sweepstake moneys should realise that the utmost economy in expenditure is imperative.

On the question of hospital construction, there are before my Department at the present time, 135 proposals for new hospitals and for the adaptation, reconstruction and repair of existing hospitals. The cost of carrying out these projects is in the region of £27,000,000. This figure does not include any provision in respect of county homes, which, except for the infirmary sections, are not eligible for grants from the Hospitals Trust Fund. It must not be assumed from the fact that I am compelled to exclude them from this review of proposals which can be financed from the Hospitals Trust Fund that I regard them as being in a satisfactory condition. Far from it. I am satisfied that conditions in a large number of them are bad and that the whole problem of making radical improvements in existing buildings or of providing replacements must be faced. The community has a responsibility for the care of the aged and infirm which it cannot escape.

I have on the majority of occasions during my visits of inspection throughout the country criticised the sub-standard conditions which, in my opinion, exist in these county homes. Equally, however, I have paid tribute on each occasion to the extremely high standard of equipment, staffing, care and attention which exists in the county hospitals which I have seen up to the present, and it is also only just for me to give credit where credit is due. I have pointed out how very very impressive were the hospital buildings themselves, my only criticism being that they appear to be rather too small for the population groups which they serve. My hospital building programme is conditioned by two main factors, shortage of materials and shortage of skilled and unskilled labour. This makes it inevitable that hospitals can be built only in competition with other pressing housing needs of the community.

I am conscious that good housing is a prerequisite of good health and that money and effort devoted to building up a positive health service while slum conditions, overcrowding and bad housing remain is largely waste. In these circumstances I have come to the conclusion that I would not be justified in approving of the full programme before my Department. I have concluded, reluctantly, that what should be done is to proceed on the basis of a limited programme of hospital construction over the period of about seven years. I have fixed at £15,000,000 the cost of the work which I will endeavour to have brought to a conclusion within that period. Included in this figure are the works which I feel are the most essential. The decision to proceed on these lines has not been an easy one for me to take because I have had to decide that certain works must be deferred. My Department is in the process of notifying the promoters of the projects which will have to be deferred. I know the notifications will result in grave disappointment which I have done my utmost to avoid but I can assure the House that I have examined the question dispassionately and without regard to political considerations or to local affiliations and that my decision has been taken purely on grounds, not of need, but of the greatest need. A review of the programme will, however, take place as soon as there is any material change in conditions in the building industry and, in any event, in the next three years.

I should perhaps say a special word about Dublin. The Dublin area already has a number of excellent and well-run hospitals, and while the need to provide more modern buildings with greater bed accommodation to replace these institutions does undoubtedly exist, I think we must agree that there is a greater need elsewhere.

The division of the £15,000,000 among the various types of treatment centres is as follows:—

£

General Medical and Sur gical Hospitals

5,900,000

Maternity and Children's Hospitals

1,600,000

Tuberculosis Hospitals

3,800,000

Clinics and Dispensaries

500,000

Mental Hospitals

1,500,000

Fever Hospitals

1,250,000

These total £14,550,000. The balance must be reserved for spending on small works, unforeseen at present. It is clear that no margin is left for any major project.

It will be seen that there is a very substantial provision included for tuberculosis hospitals. These are particularly badly needed because there is in tuberculosis the factor that each sufferer, so long as he is not receiving the proper treatment away from his family and friends, can spread the infection and I am sure every member of the House shares my anxiety that every tuberculosis sufferer in the country should, if he wishes to avail of it, be given the facilities for isolation, rest and proper treatment, which are necessary for his recovery and the protection of his family and associates.

I feel that if the country can succeed in getting £15,000,000 worth of hospital construction carried out within the next seven years, we will have gone a good way towards solving the institutional side of our health problems, but the programme can be carried out only if there is general acceptance that it is the only reasonable decision and I am allowed to get on with the job and the time of the officials of my Department is not taken up in examining proposals which there is no hope of putting in hands or completing within the next few years. I would like to join with the Minister for Local Government in appealing to our workmen—bricklayers, carpenters, plasterers, painters and all the other skilled and unskilled workers at home and overseas—to give us their unstinted assistance and co-operation in the Government's building drive which they will have the satisfaction of knowing will provide houses for the healthy and hospital and other health services for the sick of all sections of the community, particularly the workers themselves and their families.

A noteworthy development is the readiness of the central health administration to avail itself of the accumulated knowledge of experts in different spheres of medicine. In the National Health Council set up by my predecessor we have the first advisory council on health matters which has been specifically provided for by Statute to give to the Minister, when so required by him, advice on matters relating to or incidental to the health of the people. This most desirable development should be a factor of great importance in the efforts to expand and improve the health services. The council has been established and has already given valuable advice.

In addition to the National Health Council, a number of consultative councils have been established under the Health Act.

In order to keep abreast of modern developments I have established a Consultative Cancer Council to examine the existing facilities for the diagnosis and treatment of cancer and for research work in relation to cancer in this country and to submit recommendations as to—

(a) the further facilities to be provided;

(b) the nature of the organisations by which such facilities should be provided; and

(c) the staffing, equipment and suggested stages of development appropriate to any organisation or organisations recommended.

The council is composed of bacteriological and cancer specialists and persons familiar with the administration of public health services and held its first meeting on the 22nd April last. I have especially requested the council to advise me, in the first instance, on any immediate steps which I might take to improve the diagnostic and treatment services in the early future, and, secondly, to submit a long-term plan designed to deal as fully and exhaustively as possible with all phases of the problem.

As I mentioned earlier I have also set up a Child Health Council. The council has been given responsibility for advising on the measures which may appear to be likely to prove most effective for the improvement of the health of children generally, or of any particular class or classes of children, and, in particular, for the reduction of infant mortality.

The problem of tuberculosis is one of major concern and a matter which will need the combined and sustained efforts of the whole community to alleviate the present grievous position, and I have established a special tuberculosis consultative council to advise me from time to time on matters relating to the prevention and treatment of tuberculosis.

While the consultative bodies I have mentioned are the first statutory bodies of their kind in the health sphere, they are by no means the first bodies of experts in the medical and kindred professions which have given the benefit of their experience or knowledge to the central health administration. My predecessor in office also established a committee to examine, in relation to projected health reforms and any developments in the standard of medical education elsewhere, the present system of undergraduate and post-graduate medical education in this country. The value of any health service depends largely on the efficiency of its personnel and the nature of the health services of the future will demand that medical education must keep in step with progress in the realms of medicine and with the needs of the community for doctors possessed of the highest standard of skill and knowledge. I understand that this committee has already made substantial progress in its task.

Apart from the general question of raising the standard of knowledge and skill of medical graduates there is also an urgent need for obtaining at least a skeleton staff with all-round medical and public health post-graduate training for the health services in advance of any general examination of the major problem of medical education.

In the circumstances it is proposed to establish a post-graduate medical school for the training of local authority medical personnel in St. Kevin's Hospital, Dublin. An advisory committee was established to examine and consider the existing accommodation and facilities at the hospital and to make recommendations as to the measures necessary and immediately practicable for enabling the proposed school to be established and to function satisfactorily. I gather that this committee, also, has made considerable progress and that its report will soon be available.

While on the subject of professional education I should perhaps refer to an ancillary matter, the training of nursing personnel. I have been considering the present system and may find it desirable to bring before the House legislation governing this matter. Arising out of that, there have been discussions with representatives of the nursing profession on the question of the desirability of establishing a new national nursing board which would absorb the General Nursing Council and the Central Midwives' Board. This proposal would facilitate the integration of the different branches of the nursing profession and the provision of the steady flow of nurses and midwives that will be needed for many years. I have also had discussions with the General Nursing Council on a scheme for the institution of a new grade of sanatorium nurse.

Training and organisation are only two aspects of the nursing problem. I feel that too much stress cannot be laid on the importance of insisting on fair living and working conditions for all our nursing staffs. We will need hundreds of nurses for our extended health services and if we are to get them we must offer them attractive terms. Adequate remuneration alone is not enough. Proper accommodation and adequate recreational facilities are also of prime importance.

Before passing from this question of medical and nursing personnel I would like publicly to thank the many medical practitioners and representatives of professional organisations who have so generously put their time and experience at my disposal through their membership of councils and committees and in discussions.

Adequate and well-trained medical and nursing staffs are not in themselves sufficient to improve health standards of the community. The community must itself co-operate and among the matters to which I gave early attention was the initiation of a programme of education for the public generally in the fundamental principles of health and hygiene. I felt that this most powerful weapon in a positive health campaign had been rather neglected and I, therefore, took immediate steps to remedy the position. A publicity and intelligence section has been established in my Department and an experienced officer has been put in charge. By availing ourselves of the potent media available—the Press, the radio and films—we will endeavour to convince the people that they can reduce the incidence of disease and illness by availing themselves of the health services at their disposal, by the adoption of a positive attitude in health matters, by compliance with the elementary principles of hygiene and by a realisation of their responsibilities towards the community in general.

I propose to make use of Press advertisements, booklets, leaflets, films, exhibitions and radio talks. In co-operation with the Minister for Education and the National Film Institute arrangements will be made for the showing of health films in schools and, in addition, it is hoped to purchase copies of health documentary films for distribution to the film renters for screening in cinemas throughout the country. I believe that the additional expenditure involved in such publicity will be money well spent and that the nation will reap rich dividends in the way of healthier citizens. A Supplementary Estimate to provide the necessary funds will be before the House immediately after the Health Estimate proper has been disposed of.

For large sections of the community, the first link of the individual with the medical services is his local dispensary. One of my aims is that existing dispensary buildings should in the majority of cases be replaced by properly equipped health clinics which will, as far as practicable, be located in the most convenient centres from the point of view of the population of each district. Where possible, existing buildings will be converted for use. As far as I can see, the demands of this section of the health services will be heavy on money and materials, but as they are one of the corner-stones on which the health services structure will be built the effort will be well worth while. The existing dispensary service must, of course, be dissociated from the poor law tradition.

Some months ago, as an interim measure, the attention of all public assistance authorities was drawn to the unsatisfactory conditions in the many dispensaries where accommodation and amenities provided for patients fall far short of what is desirable. Since it will not be possible to provide for the replacement in the near future of more than a proportion of the inadequate or unsuitable premises, I have urged the responsible authorities to take early steps to ensure that existing premises are kept clean and in a proper condition, that adequate seating accommodation is provided for waiting patients, that the examination room is properly equipped and that before next winter reasonable heating provision is made. I would urge Deputies who are members of local authorities to take a special interest in this matter and to urge on their councils the necessity for seeing that the important health work done in dispensary premises has not to be performed under conditions which at present are primitive in many cases.

These are only two major matters with which I propose to deal at this stage, the problem of tuberculosis and the question of future health developments; but before I pass to them, I would like to mention two other matters.

No adequate measures have been taken so far on a sufficient scale to provide for the training of mentally deficient persons who are capable of being educated or for proper institutional care for other mental defectives. Magnificent work is being done by various voluntary bodies already in this field, but their efforts must be supplemented if the problem is to be adequately dealt with. The entire position is under review and I hope later to introduce a Bill dealing with this matter.

A big contribution to any health campaign would be the ensuring of a supply of clean milk. With this end in view my Department is in communication with the Department of Agriculture concerning the recommendations made by the Milk Tribunal that the production of highest grade milk should be fostered and that other milk should be pasteurised.

With regard to tuberculosis, the death rate from all forms of tuberculosis per 1,000 of population in Ireland in 1940 was 1.25, in 1946 was 1.14, and last year was 1.22.

As I have just said, our rate in 1946 was 1.14. In Denmark the figure was 0.44, in Norway 0.53, in Sweden 0.56, in England and Wales 0.63, and in Northern Ireland 0.94. Even ignoring the lesser incidence here of the effects of the war, these figures afford us no consolation. They prove conclusively how serious, relatively and absolutely, our problem is.

The number of cases treated by health authorities here was 20,622 in 1945. The figure in 1946, at 19,565, was lower than in 1945 but was still substantially in excess of the figures in earlier years.

The figure for notifications was 3,864 in 1943, but in each subsequent year showed a reduction. The figure for 1946 was 3,380.

Accommodation is provided by health authorities in 19 tuberculosis institutions. There are, in addition, four voluntary institutions which cater solely for pulmonary tuberculosis cases. Patients, however, are also accommodated in county hospitals, county homes and district hospitals and beds are made available as conditions permit. Other voluntary hospitals also play an important part in relieving the demand for beds, particularly as regards non-pulmonary cases.

The number of beds at present provided in health authority tuberculosis hospitals is 1,600 and the voluntary tuberculosis hospitals can deal with 650 patients. This total of 2,250 beds represents the number provided by institutions devoted solely or mainly to the treatment of tuberculosis. In addition, some 980 beds are made available by the remaining local authorities and voluntary hospitals. The total is thus about 3,230 beds and represents, approximately, 1.28 beds per death.

Steps are being taken to increase the number of beds, as a matter of urgency. It is intended that an initial provision of approximately 1.5 beds per death should be the first objective, to be extended to two beds per death should conditions so demand. It is not easy in present circumstances with shortages of money, materials and labour to achieve that result. As a first step, existing institutions are being extended or adapted. Thus, four of the voluntary institutions will soon have provision for over 300 more patients. The recently built Castlerea Mental Hospital has been handed over temporarily for use as a sanatorium and opened last week. By the end of the year it should have 420 beds and full treatment facilities, including a theatre for thoracic surgery and homes to accommodate over 100 nurses and 30 domestic staff. The new District Hospital in Mallow is in a similar position to Castlerea, but the number will be approximately 60 to 80 patients. Arrangements are in train for the taking over by Dublin Corporation of Coláiste Moibhi in the Phoenix Park. This institution will ultimately accommodate approximately 350 patients.

Before I leave these three projects, I wish to express my sincere appreciation of the whole-hearted co-operation I have got so willingly from all sides of the House, from the local authorities concerned, from the Ministers for Education and Defence and from the Most Reverend Manager of Coláiste Moibhi. That co-operation has, in many cases, involved great sacrifice. I would like to particularise, but this statement has already been lengthy and I will have later opportunities to do so.

As a result of the extensions and acquisitions to which I have referred, some 1,650 additional beds will ultimately become available. This would give a total approaching 5,000 beds, which is not far short of 1.5 beds per death. These extra beds will not all become available for some time, although it is hoped that about one-half of them, so far as it is possible to judge at the moment, will become available during the current year.

We are by no means within sight of the desired position so far as beds are concerned, however, because some of the existing institutions are most unsuited to the treatment of tuberculosis and a number of them will have to be closed down as soon as an alternative can be found. Long-term plans are, therefore, in preparation and will be pressed ahead with all speed. These include the provision of large sanatoria on a regional basis.

The main centres at which tuberculosis is diagnosed are the tuberculosis clinics, of which there are 278 throughout the country. Many of these centres are unsuitable and, as an interim measure, the authorities concerned have been requested to improve them as a matter of emergency in so far as the re-equipping and redecorating may be effective, pending the erection of new structures. Fluoroscopic apparatus is available in practically every county. A mass radiography unit has been in operation in Dublin since 1946 and over 12,000 persons have already been X-rayed. It is proposed to extend this service throughout the country by providing additional units, including mobile units.

Two medical officers of health authorities are at present in Canada on a six months' course of study in modern methods of diagnosis and treatment of tuberculosis. It has been arranged that four such officers will each year, throughout a period of five years, undertake a similar course.

Nursing personnel are also catered for by the provision of a course of study in tuberculosis work, for which a diploma is awarded by the General Nursing Council to successful candidates. In addition, as I have already mentioned, arrangements to train a special category of nurses, to be described as sanatorium nurses, are under examination.

A commencement has been made in the provision of a national thoracic surgical service. A whole-time thoracic surgeon has been appointed and is about to take up duty. Owing to lack of suitable theatre facilities in local authority institutions, it would have been impossible to bring the scheme into operation in Dublin for several months but for the co-operation of the Commissioner administering the affairs of the Dublin Board of Assistance, who made available first-class operating facilities at St. Kevin's Hospital, pending the provision of permanent facilities at Rialto Hospital. Full theatre facilities are available at the new Mallow Hospital and, as I have mentioned, full facilities will shortly be available at Castlerea.

A scheme of immunisation with B.C.G. under the auspices of the local authority has been instituted in Dublin. I am investigating the possibility of introducing a scheme under which the health of young persons from school leaving age will be supervised. Such a scheme, if introduced, should reduce the incidence of the diseases, including tuberculosis, so often contracted during the dangerous years of adolescence.

I have already referred to the appointment of a consultative council to advise me on matters relating to the whole problem of the diagnosis and treatment of the disease, and to the introduction of the maintenance allowance scheme by my predecessor, Dr. Ryan.

Deputies will have noticed that I have confined my review to the question of diagnosis and treatment and that I have made little reference to prevention. The tuberculosis problem cannot be solved until good housing, good school and working conditions and adequate nutrition are available for all, but these are not within my province on this Estimate. I can and will, however, supplement the national effort to bring about conditions repugnant to the spread of the disease by publicity as to the elementary precautions which every citizen can take to lessen the risk of infection in his own home, in his place of employment and in his place of relaxation and amusement. Another important object of the publicity will be to get the public to adopt a rational attitude towards the disease so that no longer will the infected person be ashamed of his ailment or the person who has been lucky enough to avoid the ailment feel superior. If only people would regard tuberculosis as they regard rheumatism or cancer or any other ailment, we would have advanced considerably towards the eradication of the disease.

I have not so far referred to rehabilitation. Not every person who has been cured of the disease will be fit to resume his former occupation. For those who will not be fit for heavy labour, as a result of the disease or of infantile paralysis, some special provision must be made. The problem is a big one and I do not propose to enlarge upon it now. I will only say that it will be examined carefully, considerately and with expedition.

As regards future developments, the position is that I have found it necessary, since I assumed office, to devote a large part of my time and energies as well as those of my Department to dealing with the prodigious number of problems which I found requiring immediate attention. I felt that until these had been disposed of the amount of time which could be devoted to long-term plans was necessarily limited. So far as the ordinary citizen is concerned, the provision of facilities designed to relieve immediate and pressing needs is of much more importance than plans, which, however attractive they may seem in theory, are not capable of early realisation.

Any worthwhile development of our services must, of course, be within the financial capacity of the community as a whole and, moreover, cannot have any reality without the necessary diagnostic and treatment centres and adequate medical, nursing and midwifery staffs.

On this question of future health services, I would like to say a word to the medical profession. Very few people would welcome State interference in our medical set-up. In the ultimate, however, the State has a duty to the public and it will be incumbent on the medical profession to demonstrate its readiness and willingness to co-operate in providing an adequate service with the minimum of State interference. With a universal spirit of goodwill, there is no adequate reason why we should not build, on the present foundations, a worthy health service within a comparatively short time.

I should like, in closing, to pay a particular tribute to all the members of my staff in the Department of Health. I think that it should be a source of great encouragement and considerable gratification to us all that the greatest loyalty, efficiency and hard work should be evident from the civil servants in our Departments. That these qualities should be forthcoming to the appointed Minister of the State irrespective of whatever Government may be in office should be publicly acknowledged and to a great extent to them must go the credit for the effective carrying out and the realisation of our endeavours to provide a service which we feel that our people so richly deserve.

The Minister, in the course of his statement, said that he was dealing principally with the treatment, and had not dealt as sufficiently as he would like with the prevention side. I am rather disappointed that he did not deal with the prevention side, that he did not give more thought to it and more of his views on it to the House. So far as the Health Act which was passed last year is concerned, the big idea underlying it was to try to prevent disease. I think every doctor in practice and every administrator of health services and, indeed, every Minister for Health, should have as his first concern the prevention of disease and then, of course, if disease enters—as it will in spite of us—to treat it. In the Act passed last year, the 1947 Health Act, principal stress was laid on prevention. If we want to prevent disease in general occurring here, I think it must strike anybody, layman or anybody else, that we must have healthy children. In fact we must go further. We must have a healthy mother before the child arrives.

A great deal of the 1947 Act is, therefore, devoted to child welfare services. In that Act, an obligation is laid on the local authorities to provide facilities both ante-natal and postnatal, for mothers, for the care of infants and for the care of school children. But that was an enabling Act and it must be implemented by regulations. I was very anxious when I was in charge of the Department of Health to have that Act implemented as quickly as possible in that particular respect so that mothers and children would have the benefit of advice from the medical officer and would be given every opportunity to enjoy perfect health, so far as that is possible. I was anxious that the regulations necessary, sample regulations, should be prepared for the local authorities. The local authorities, of course, can make their own regulations within the framework of the Act but the local authorities, so far as I know, were anxious to have sample regulations submitted to them so that they could frame their regulations, either following these sample regulations or departing from them as they thought fit.

I was expecting to hear from the Minister in introducing the Estimate that some progress had been made in regard to these regulations or that some progress had been made towards providing better facilities for the health of mothers and children, for infants and for school-children. As we all know, there are no such facilities in many areas. There are, of course, in a city like Dublin, where you have maternity hospitals, clinics for mothers and infants. So far as school inspection goes, it is not as thorough as it should be, because as it is worked at the moment, the medical officer of health or his staff must carry out school inspection and, with so many schools under his control and so many children attending these schools, he cannot give those children a thorough examination more than probably once every two or three years. Indeed in some counties the intervals are longer.

It has been-said that in some counties children actually go through their school course without being fortunate enough to happen on a medical examination at all. These were the matters with which the 1947 Act was designed to deal. I should like to have heard something more from the Minister in introducing the Estimate on the progress that has been made with regard to mother and child welfare. Perhaps in his concluding speech he would give us some further information.

I have said that under the present scheme, with the county medical officer of health responsible for school inspection, even where he has an assistant or two assistants according to the size of the county, it is not possible for him and his assistant to carry out that school inspection more than once every two or three years. A disease may develop in a child with which it will be very difficult to deal after two or three years and with which it would be much easier to deal if it were discovered at an early stage, at the time it attacks the child. It was proposed, therefore— I do not know whether the Minister is inclined to change from the idea I had when I was in the Department—that the district medical officer, who is now the dispensary medical officer, would be responsible both for prevention and cure of the people in his own area.

The district medical officer would be in charge of an area of somewhat the same size as the dispensary area. Some of those areas may be too big. It may be necessary to take a bit off an area in order to give the medical officer an opportunity of looking after it more efficiently or, if there is a still bigger area, it may be possible to give the district medical officer an assistant, or, if you take the very big dispensary areas, such as we have in Dublin, it may be necessary to give him more than one assistant.

These were things that were being investigated under a survey that was being carried out by the Department of Health in the various counties, to see what was the population and what were the general conditions of the various dispensary districts, so that it would be possible to discuss a scheme with the local authority. The local authority had the initiation of the scheme but it would be possible to give the local authority information at the disposal of the Department of Health as a result of the survey and discuss with them a scheme for the reorganisation of those districts, so that the doctor in charge would be able to look after prevention as well as cure. He has to do school inspection, to look after clinics for expectant mothers and to look after clinics for infants before school age and, of course, to look after infectious diseases, so far as they are dealt with in the dispensary area before being sent to a fever hospital or elsewhere. It was also proposed that this district medical officer, whether he would have an assistant medical officer with him or whether his district would be small enough to be looked after by himself, would have at his disposal a general nurse and a maternity nurse.

Undoubtedly this organisation will take time but I am interested to know whether any progress has been made. I did not expect that they would be placed in their districts with assistant medical officers under their control and general nurses and maternity nurses within the last four or five months but I am anxious to know whether some progress has been made. Undoubtedly there are certain difficulties to be got over and some of them will give a certain amount of worry to any Minister for Health. One of the worries I had when I was there in meeting the medical association was to know what could be done for the general private practitioner. The argument was put up by the medical association that if the provisions outlined in the White Paper issued last year were to come into operation, the private practitioner in the small town was in danger at least of losing any practice he might have in maternity and treatment of children because these people would get free treatment from the district medical officer and that he would also lose a certain amount of practice in respect of people who are now compelled to pay, but who, if the provisions of the White Paper were brought into operation, would not be bound to pay the doctor.

I must say that that was a question requiring a great deal of consideration, but even a difficult problem of that kind should not prevent the scheme being brought into operation. Even the men concerned admitted that their worries, whatever they might be, should not stand in the way of a better scheme of public health, but they thought it was possible to reconcile their claims with a good scheme and it possibly is. In these towns, I believe that the present dispensary doctor will have more than the average population under his control and he will therefore be entitled to medical assistance if the scheme were brought into operation. If that is the case, it should be possible to do something for the private practitioner by giving him some share of the extra work. That would be one way of dealing with it. There may be better ways —I do not know.

The experience gained from school medical inspection is that children suffer from certain ailments in particular. As a matter of fact, there are surprisingly high figures to be seen in the statistics. One is surprised to hear the very high percentage of children who suffer from bad teeth. It goes up to practically 50 per cent. A much lower percentage suffer from defects of the eye and a certain number suffer from tonsils and adenoids. These are complaints which, if taken early, can very often be corrected, but, if they are not taken early, cannot be corrected and leave some permanent injury behind them. If a child loses its permanent teeth, the matter cannot be rectified. Dentures put in afterwards are not the same.

If a child suffers for some time from faulty accommodation in vision, it may be impossible to put matters right, which, if taken in time, could be put right. It is evident, therefore, to everybody that frequent school medical inspection is a most important and very necessary matter. I am stressing this because I have to agree with the Minister, though I do not think I agree with him fully, that there are difficulties about building large hospitals, but there is not the same difficulty about putting a scheme of that kind into operation and having children in the schools examined often. Let us at least start off as soon as possible by keeping the coming generation as healthy as we possibly can. That is so far as the mother and child welfare scheme is concerned.

In the same Bill, there was a Part dealing with infectious diseases and one of the things mentioned by the Minister in the statistics he gave was the number of deaths from diphtheria. He mentioned that the death rate from diphtheria had gone down very satisfactorily over the past four or five years, but that unfortunately the number of people immunised against diphtheria was going down, and not up, as we would like to see it. We would like to see everybody adopting immunisation as far as possible, because I think there is little doubt that, owing to immunisation, so far as it went, the diphtheria death rate has gone down considerably. There might have been a slight drop in any case, as there always is in the case of these diseases, but not such a significant drop as there was, but for immunisation, and it is a pity that immunisation is not being more widely adopted.

I hope that everything possible will be done to see that people are impressed with its importance and will avail of it to as great an extent as possible. Medical men generally will agree, I think, if immunisation were generally adopted against diphtheria, it could be stamped out just as effectively as smallpox was stamped out in the last century. In that connection, I should like to know what decision the Minister has taken on vaccination against smallpox, because it was a matter of some controversy here when the Health Bill was going through. I agree, as everybody does, that the most essential things for health are good food and good housing. Unless we have the foundation of good hygienic houses and good food, we cannot possibly expect good health.

The nutrition survey was mentioned by the Minister. That survey was carried out in Dublin before being extended to the country and, as the Minister explained, it was carried out by officers of the Department of Health in 1946. It was under the auspices of the Medical Research Council and was carried out according to world standards, so that we could compare our figures with those produced in other countries. So far as I know, the survey was well and widely done. A wider number of people were taken in in the City of Dublin than were taken in in most countries in a survey of the kind, so that the figures produced here should be valuable. But these figures were taken in 1946, two years ago, and they are complete so far as nutrition in the City of Dublin is concerned and I see no reason why they should not be published. They were available before I left the Department—I saw them— and the reason I was so interested in them was that they went a good distance towards contradicting a lot of popular beliefs about nutrition in this country; in other words, nutrition in this country is good so far as it can be found out in a scientific way.

It is no harm for people to know, even though the survey was carried out under the previous Government, that we are well fed compared with other countries, and there is no reason why the figures should be kept back any longer until other figures are ready. We know fairly well what the condition of housing is. We see very often particulars of the numbers of people living in houses which are not fit for human habitation, and it would be no harm if we knew what the real state of nutrition amongst our people is. The figures are particularly interesting in relation to a comparison of nutrition standards amongst the lower wage earners as compared with the higher wage and salary earners, and I press the Minister to have that survey published as soon as possible.

As regards housing, as the Minister says, he has no direct control over housing. Everybody would like to see more housing. Everybody would have to admit that a great deal was done in housing over the last 15 or 16 years. A lot remains to be done. We are waiting to see a big drive in housing again and if it were possible to get housing going on a large scale again it would be possible, probably, to see the present housing shortage solved within ten or 12 years. Of course, in the meantime other people would be looking for houses but those who are now looking for houses could be supplied probably in ten or 12 years if we got back to the rate of house building we had in 1937 or 1938.

What we want, therefore, as far as the prevention of disease is concerned, are the fundamentals of good houses, good food and, on the medical side, in particular, to see that we have healthy mothers and healthy children. In that way we will be at least in the position that our children when they leave school at 15 or 16 years of age and go to employment will be entering that employment as good, healthy young people. But, no matter how good our preventive medical system may be, there is no doubt that disease will get in and then it comes to treatment. We must treat it as best we can.

I have always thought that in this country we are very fortunate in having a really good system for the treatment of disease if we put the necessary equipment and facilities at the disposal of the men concerned. Nowhere in the world does the family doctor know his people so well and do they trust him so implicitly as in this country. In the rural areas there is the dispensary doctor who is known to everybody and who knows everybody in his district. The dispensary doctors are very good men taking them all round. In the small towns and cities there is the family doctor, not always the dispensary doctor in that case. So, we have a really good foundation to build upon when we come to a system of treatment of disease. But the doctor, as the Minister pointed out, must get a good clinic.

When I was in the Department of Health, probably, the Department was too ambitious, and the type of clinic suggested would be a very elaborate building and very costly. It would, of course, take a great deal of time to build and a great deal of materials and as the Minister has pointed out, there is only a certain amount of material there and only a certain amount of labour available. We must keep that in mind. It would be possible, however, to improve the clinics somewhat and I am glad to know that the Minister has that in mind. But, apart from building, other things can be done without much delay, such as the provision of equipment and the necessary drugs and so on. Some of these men complain that they do not get sufficient discretion with regard to the drugs they use and that they are not allowed as much equipment as they would need for the simple small operations they are called upon to perform and even for examining the patient. I hope it may be possible to put these things right as far as possible.

I spoke already about the help that would be necessary. The question must be considered, in organising these areas, whether the district medical officer should have medical assistance or not. No matter how small or how large the area, it will be necessary to give nursing help, that is, a general nurse and a maternity nurse to each of these areas.

I had some discussions with these men—perhaps they had not reached the official stage—about the question of their hours of duty. I suppose every member of this House realises that a dispensary medical officer is on duty all the time. He must be available in his district except when he is on holidays or on a very special occasion, such as a death in the family or something like that, when he may get a day or two off from the county manager, but, generally speaking, from one end of the week to the other, for the 24 hours of every day, he is on duty. Admittedly, he is not working 24 hours but he is always supposed to be available. That is very hard on any man and I thought it might be possible to arrange that these district medical officers would pair off, as it were, one with the other, so that each of them could have, say, two evenings at least per week free from duty from, say, one, two or three in the afternoon until the next morning and could also perhaps have every second Sunday. At least, in rural districts the number of calls is not very many and it will not occur very often that persons will have to send to the next district for the doctor when their own doctor is away. It will occur very occasionally, but not very often, and when it does occur it cannot be helped. In the cities and towns the matter could be arranged more easily because the district medical officer will have an assistant or perhaps two assistants and the duties can be arranged between them.

The same, of course, applies to some extent to other classes of the medical profession. For instance, county surgeons are also on duty practically all the time except when they are on holidays. It is rather unnerving for men who are working fairly hard, as these men do, and who have serious cases on hands, to feel that they are never free, that they are always liable to be called to the hospital any hour of day or night, the whole year round, except for their few weeks' holidays. I hope that the Minister will see, in any discussions he may have with the medical men regarding their conditions, that these matters will be made right and that they will get some freedom from that continuous duty that they have at the moment. I had promised the Medical Association, when I met them about this time last year and when they got an interim increase in their salaries, that when the provisions of the White Paper then issued were coming into operation all these matters of salaries, conditions and so on would be discussed with them before they would be asked to take over these extra duties.

I do not know whether the present Minister agrees with that White Paper or not. Probably he does not agree with all of it. There are a few things in it on which I would like to get his view. One of them is the level of income at which a person should get free treatment. It was laid down definitely what the view of the Fianna Fáil Government was on that point. It was laid down that a person earning under £5 a week, or a landowner having a farm of less than £25 valuation, was entitled to free treatment of every kind. Then there was an intermediate class—a person earning between £5 and £10, and the farmer between £25 and £50 valuation was entitled to free institutional treatment. I have known of two particular instances of farmers—probably about £25 valuation—who were not entitled to free treatment, even to free institutional treatment. Both of these men needed an operation very badly, but they could not afford to pay for the institution and pay for the operation. The result was that they postponed going into hospital much longer than they should have, on account of their means. These were instances that were in my mind and were probably responsible for making me suggest some scheme to the Government with regard to free treatment and a higher level of free institutional treatment.

These two things could be introduced without very much delay. I know that it will be necessary to talk to the doctors, as they will claim, I am afraid, that the conditions of their employment are completely changed when this new range of free treatment comes in. Even so, it is a pity that we should have cases in the country where men need an operation but feel they cannot afford to pay for it and who, therefore, are neglecting their health under the scheme as it stands. I would like the Minister to tell us, in winding up, what his opinion is with regard to that particular part of the White Paper.

I would also like the Minister to give us his views with regard to policy in the building, first of all, of general hospitals. We might divide them roughly, as in the past, into district, county and regional—the regional including general hospitals in cities and so on. I want to know the Minister's opinion regarding district hospitals. Before I went into the Department of Health, the policy was to make them as few as possible, but I did not altogether agree with that. I think these district hospitals should be placed within reasonable reach of people everywhere, as far as it can be done. The district hospital is a small institution, a one-man hospital. A general practitioner takes charge of it and that immediately tells us what the hospital deals with. A general practitioner is capable of dealing, for instance, with maternity cases, with a broken leg and with cases of pneumonia. If it is desirable to shift a pneumonia case into hospital, that is another matter. I mention these cases to indicate the types dealt with in a district hospital. I do not know what the relative costs may be of having three district hospitals or the three amalgamated into one, but if it were only slightly more costly I would say the people should get the district hospital, as far as might be considered reasonable.

There is no doubt that there is a growing tendency in the country for maternity cases to go to an institution, or to some hospital or other. When I say the country, I do not mean the rural parts alone, but the whole country. That is understandable, because it is so difficult in recent times to get domestic help that both the woman herself and her friends think it better she should get into some institution where she is looked after during that time; and someone will look after the family while she is away. She could not look after the family, anyway, even if she stayed at home, so the tendency is to go to an institution. The great majority —I think 97 per cent.—of maternity cases are normal and can be treated by the general practitioner and, therefore, at the district hospital. It may be looked upon, therefore, more and more as a maternity hospital, while not neglecting the ordinary small medical cases that could be dealt with by the doctor who is in charge of that hospital. We may all have our views on that matter. I do not know what the Minister's views may be and I would like him to tell us his general policy regarding the establishment of district hospitals where there are none at present. When leaving the Department, I had sanctioned the provision of district hospitals in at least a few instances, but I do not know what may be the general attitude now.

Then there is the county hospital, which is a bigger institution. It has a general surgeon, a physician and a maternity man. Sometimes, the maternity man and the physician may be the same man. At any rate, they can deal with practically all general cases. The cases are sifted as they go up. Some go to the district hospital and some that cannot be dealt with there go to the county hospital. We find that some cases must go further because the county hospital cannot afford to have specialists or would not have enough work for them. Therefore, the cases that are dealt with by a specialist must go farther or, alternatively, the specialist must come down to the county hospital, and occasionally he does. Some specialists, such as ophthalmologists, nose and throat men may visit the county hospital occasionally. They cannot, of course, come down every time there are urgent cases. Therefore, these must go on to the regional, and in the regional we have both a general hospital and the specialists who are attached to these hospitals in the city.

We have special hospitals dealing with tuberculosis and with fever. It was contemplated that we would have special hospitals to deal with other things as well. The Minister dealt fairly fully in his statement with tuberculosis, but, again, I would like if he had dealt more with the prevention side of it. Food and housing, of course, are a sine qua non to good health in the prevention of tuberculosis and of other diseases. He mentioned radiography. Mass radiography has been carried on in Dublin for some years. I hope it will be extended to the country as quickly as possible. I think medical opinion has come to recognise that the early diagnosis of tuberculosis is helped very much by radiography. I would like to know what measures have been taken to extend mass radiography throughout the country or the facilities for X-ray so as to put these facilities within the reach of practically everybody as far as we possibly can.

I do not think enough attention is paid to contacts. Within recent weeks I came across a case where a person in a family died of tuberculosis and, as far as I could find out, nothing more was done. There was no follow-up by the medical officer of health or his staff to check up on the people in that house to try and induce them, as far as he possibly could, to be thoroughly examined, X-rayed and so on. I am afraid that is not done as well as it should be.

As regards institutional treatment, the Minister gave us some facts with regard to sanatoria, but I want to know what exactly has been done during the last four or five months in regard to additional buildings. I am just working from recollection if you like, but near Galway—I forget the name of the place—when I visited it last autumn there was one of those 40-bed units occupied. I should say that the 40-bed unit is a very impressive type of building for the treatment of tuberculosis. They were about to build another. I do not know whether it has been completed since or not, or what progress has been made with regard to that second unit. I had correspondence with some other institutions when I was in the Department. We were endeavouring to get Peamount to put up three of these 40-bed units, and Newcastle to put up two. That would be five between the two institutions. I do not know what has been done since. There was some delay about a contract. I do not know whether that difficulty has been got over or not, or whether any progress has been made with regard to these additional units— the 120 extra beds at Peamount and the 80 extra at Newcastle. Lourdes provided 43 beds. I think they had been completed before the 18th February, and Rialto provided 80. They were definitely completed before the 18th February. I also met the Board of St. Laurence's Hospital, which undertook to provide 60 beds and also a thoracic unit. I do not know what progress has been made. I thought there would be no avoidable delay in providing those beds in the hospital.

Then there were some houses. There was a house in Killybegs. I did not see it, but I believe it was particularly suitable for this purpose. It was taken over nearly 12 months ago. Some progress, I understand, had been made before I left the Department in converting it into a sanatorium. I would like to know whether it is near completion or when we may hope to have it occupied by tubercular patients. An agreement was also reached before I left in regard to the handing over of the property at Castlerea. Some delay was caused there because some of the employees at Castlerea thought they were going to be victimised. There was some short delay in dealing with that matter just before I left, but I understood from the Minister's speech that Castlerea has been handed over and is occupied—that it has been completed within the last four or five months. There were some other houses as well. There was a house near Waterford; there was Kilcreene House, near Kilkenny, and a house called St. Patrick's, at Sligo. Last September or October I saw the house in Sligo. It seemed to me to be very suitable, if certain alterations were carried out. I was told that the houses in Waterford and Kilkenny were also very suitable. I would like to know what has been done to convert them and what progress has been made in the last four or five months in that respect.

Now, apart from beds—these were extra beds that we were hoping to get —we had other schemes on hands. I think at Lourdes a new theatre and a new thoracic unit, and at Peamount a new theatre, were to be provided. A new thoracic unit was also to be provided at St. Laurence's and I would like to know what the programme in this connection is.

I am glad that the Minister succeeded in getting St. Mobhi's. I tried to get it and failed. The Minister for Defence at the time very naturally said to me: "If you can find an alternative place for the training school and if they are satisfied, you can have St. Mobhi's." I failed, however, to find an alternative place and the Minister is very fortunate in getting St. Mobhi's.

There were plans for three large sanatoria—a long-term plan—for Dublin, Cork and Galway. I think that the last scheme or the last idea in regard to that matter was that there should be 1,200 beds in Dublin, 800 beds in Cork and 500 in Galway. I saw the sites and the development work in Galway, and when I was leaving the Department my recollection was that we could expect Galway to be ready in three years and the other two to be ready in five years. I would like to know if there has been any improvement on that schedule since the Minister took over office, and if he could give us any idea of what is likely to happen with regard to these three sanatoria.

The Minister gave answers in the Dáil lately about the site for a nurses' home at Newcastle. When I was in the Department, the committee were negotiating and trying to secure a field beside them which they thought was very dear. But if the information given by the Minister, coupled with the rumours we have heard, is true, the price per acre for the farm which is now sanctioned is as much as the price per acre of the field which was beside the sanatorium. The field would have been convenient because it adjoins the sanatorium and it would give an opportunity to the sanatorium of becoming a larger institution and also of having a larger nurses' home. I would like to know why this change was made from the field which they were trying to purchase to this farm which lies at a distance of 1½ miles from the sanatorium and which could not possibly be a suitable place for a nurses' home except at great expense for transport to shift nurses back and forward at the end of each term of duty.

The death rate is undoubtedly too high. The Minister gave the death rate and also gave a comparison with other countries such as Denmark, Sweden and Great Britain, showing that the death rate here is twice as high as it is in some other countries. At any rate it is perhaps an advantage to discuss these matters when we are here face to face and where we are not talking to ignorant people, as the Minister probably was talking during the election campaign when he charged us with criminal neglect in letting 60,000 people die during the last 16 years. It must be evident to anybody that no matter how successful or efficient we were in this country, we could not stamp out tuberculosis at the present state of medical science.

A Deputy

Why not?

Because nobody has done it. The most we could hope to do is to reach the same state of efficiency as exists in New Zealand, Denmark and other countries. If we reached that very high state of efficiency we should have had half the deaths. The Minister said yesterday, when he was talking to people who know the difference, that it takes time to get a scheme going, but he did not give us any time. He thought that we should have stopped the deaths from the time we took over office and he attributes all these 60,000 deaths to us, and accuses us of criminal neglect for having let them die. When he is talking to people who know the difference and who will not swallow that kind of talk, the people here in the Dáil, he does not say that. The success of the campaign against tuberculosis, as the Minister has said, requires the health of everybody, and undoubtedly that health will be got, but it would be better not to make it a political question. Better not say "the Fianna Fáil Party were guilty of criminal neglect in letting everybody die, but I will let nobody die." If you say "Fianna Fáil were too slow and I am going to be quicker," then I will say "more power to you." If the present Government are able to go quicker and if they are more successful, they will have our support in trying to stamp tuberculosis out.

There is no use in telling us what is wrong, that people were dying of tuberculosis or that Fianna Fáil did nothing. What we want to know is what is going to be done. When we know exactly what is going to be done we can offer our co-operation as far as it is required and there will be no stinting in stamping out disease.

When he was dealing with hospitals and with regional hospitals, he went on to talk about special hospitals and first he mentioned sanatoria for tuberculosis, but there are other special hospitals too. I was in Cork last September and saw the foundations which had been laid for a fever hospital and a very elaborate institution it will be when it is finished. All the clearance work, all the development work has been done; all the passages underneath are done; the wires for electricity are there, the sewerage is laid; the walls are built to a height of three or four feet and the work was stopped on it at the beginning of the emergency. I suggested to the county manager that he should finish it.

Undoubtedly there is great difference between the number of people who want treatment in a fever hospital now and the number who wanted it even ten or 12 years ago, because the incidence of fever has gone down very much, but this is a building that could be proceeded with and completed very much quicker than by starting on a virgin site, and it would be a pity not to finish it even if part of it were to be used for other purposes, even perhaps for tuberculosis. I would like to know what is being done about that, and if the Minister endorses the advice which I gave to the county manager, that he should proceed with this hospital and have it completed. I might say that on that same tour I also advised the building of a regional hospital in Galway. I discussed the plans and I advised the people to go ahead at Galway and also in Limerick. The plans for a regional hospital in Cork are not so far advanced. The Cork people found it hard to come to a definite decision as to a regional hospital or a maternity hospital; whether they should be built on the same site or on different sites, and if they were to be divided, where exactly they would be. I do not know if they have come to a definite conclusion since, but I would like to know what is the Minister's idea with regard to proceeding with these regional hospitals.

I think the Minister made it fairly plain that he did not favour the building of hospitals in Dublin. I think he said Dublin was fairly well catered for in the matter of hospitals. There is one, however, that I think would hardly pass the test, and that is the Coombe Hospital. That hospital is not a modern one by any means. It does very good work. In fact, I think its work will compare with that of any maternity hospital in any country. But the staff there are working under very adverse conditions and they want to build a new hospital. They had been negotiating for a certain site when I left the Department and I should like to know whether they got the site and, if so, whether or not the building of the new hospital is to proceed.

I also met the staff of St. Vincent's Hospital. They wanted to build a new hospital and I had given them every encouragement. The same thing applies to a new wing for the Meath Hospital, which, I think, is urgently needed for a particular branch of surgery carried on there, namely, genito urinary surgery, which should be encouraged and every facility given to the staff there to go on with the good work they are doing. I also had a talk with the commissioner of the Dublin Board of Assistance about, let us say, the county home part of St. Kevin's. I authorised him, so far as my authority was needed, to proceed with plans for the building of a home to take everybody away from that institution except the acute medical and surgical cases, that is hospital cases. I do not know what progress has been made in regard to that, but I think it does require as much attention as any other county home in the country. It would be a good thing if something were done to provide a decent building somewhere else to receive these people.

Coming to the question of county homes, generally there are three classes of people concerned, and I am afraid that to deal with the question of county homes properly and in a comprehensive way we would have to take these three classes separately. In practically every county home—not all—there are unmarried mothers with babies, there are the mentally deficient, and there are the old and infirm. Many people have the idea that these county homes are housing the old and infirm only. In fact, as the Minister mentioned, there are in these homes people who should be really in hospital or in a sanatorium, people, say, suffering from a fairly chronic type of tuberculosis. I am afraid these three classes will have to be dealt with separately if we are to deal with county homes properly. There are at least three or more special institutions of different kinds for unmarried mothers with babies and they are very well run by a special order of nuns. It is a great pity there are not more of these institutions in the country. In fact, it is a great pity there is not a sufficient number of special homes of this kind to take all the unmarried mothers with their children out of the county homes. That, I think, is the only solution as far as that particular class is concerned.

Then there are the mental defectives. So far as I remember it was estimated that there are about 6,000 mental defectives in the country who should receive institutional treatment. Those who are in the county homes are not getting proper treatment. They are being taken care of, but they are not getting the educational and medical treatment that they should get. The difficulty about these mental defectives is, first of all, that you must have different homes for the different classes of mental defectives. There are at least three grades according to the seriousness of the trouble and they should be kept in these separate grades. In fact, if you could make more than three grades, it would be better still. That would mean a number of homes. In any case, you should not have too many people in one of these mental defective homes. The smaller the number is the better. 50 or 60 or 80 would be very much more preferable than 200 or 300. Therefore, we require a great number of institutions for these mental defectives. We have some of these institutions and they are doing very good work. A certain number of these mental defectives if taken in time could be educated sufficiently to earn a living. If, of course, they are not taken in time or not trained in that way, they are a burden on the community and on themselves also. It is a pity therefore that we cannot provide those institutions which are necessary for the mental defectives. Then you have the middle grade of mental defectives who, with a certain amount of training, could at least be educated to look after themselves. There is also the third grade who are not capable of looking after themselves and must be looked after by somebody else.

The Minister stated that he intended to introduce a Bill. A Bill has been on the stocks in the Department of Health for some time. It is well over 12 months since the Bill was prepared, but it was postponed for various reasons, one of them being that we had to try to get going with some programme for the provision of these institutions before there was any necessity to bring in a Bill. After all, there is no use in bringing in a Bill one of the provisions of which would be to enable local authorities to send those children to institutions unless the institutions are available, and they are not available. There may be other provisions in the Bill which may be useful, and it may be no harm to bring it along, even if certain provisions of it cannot be implemented at the present moment.

The third class and the class which everybody thinks of in these institutions is the old and infirm. There are many suggestions about what you should do with these old and infirm people. It always appeared to me that the most sensible suggestion is to get rid of as many of them as you can to their own relatives. In many cases the difficulty is that the relatives cannot afford to keep them. These old people are costing a great deal in these institutions and, looking at the matter purely from the economic point of view, it might be just as cheap to pay considerably more to the relatives than has been offered before, so that they might take these old persons back home again.

Apart from the economic point of view, in some cases I am sure the old people would much prefer to be with a close relative than in one of these institutions. Of course, if they did not want to leave the institution they could remain there. In most cases, however, they would prefer to be with their relatives and provision should be made for paying a higher contribution to those relatives to take him or her, as the case may be.

A suggestion which I must say I would favour very much, if it were practicable and workable, would be to make much smaller rooms in these county homes. Unoccupied country mansions could be taken over and properly renovated to hold 16 or 20 old people. A matron would be required, but hardly any other staff would be necessary, because these old people would do most of their own work in the way of looking after the house, the fires and so forth. I honestly think that the scheme could be worked economically in the case of those who are able to potter around—those who are able to be up every day and look after themselves and carry out the house duties.

Another system would be the colony system—to have a number of small cottages in an area where the old married couple, or three or four men or three or four women, might live, and have a common dining-room and reading room. The other idea would be to stick to the county home and to improve it as much as possible. Whatever is done, however, will not be done in a day or a month, or even in a year or two except, of course, the scheme of paying the relatives a higher contribution to take them out. In the meantime a great deal could be done to improve the position.

I am not going to go into what the Minister has said to his political adherents in regard to county homes except to point out that they have not the same beds. As a matter of fact, in 1847 they slept on straw. In the old county homes you will see a platform where the straw was shaken down and on which the people slept. Since then the beds were introduced. Further, the people in the county homes are not getting soup two or three times a day except for some special reason. The dietary is not bad. As far as I can find out there is little difference in the dietary of the county homes and that of the county hospitals. If, however, there is anything wrong there is no necessity for the Minister to go down to Galway to talk to the remnants of his organisation there because he has the power to right the matter himself. No local authority, I am quite sure, will refuse to treat their county home patients better if the Minister says he will pay for it. Under the schedule of health services he does, in fact, pay for anything extra spent by the local authority on health.

There is no need for the Minister to complain any more about the county homes. He has only to advise them to treat the patients better and to see that it is paid for. I am sure some of the counties will resent a statement of that kind. Take, for instance, my native county—County Wexford. Of course, you may not have had the advantage of seeing what a county home was like 30 years ago, but if you had and if you look at the county home in Wexford as it is to-day you will be surprised that a responsible man such as the Minister would make the statement he made. Take even the poorest county in Ireland—I hope I am not offending anyone when I say Leitrim—and look at the county home there. It is a splendid institution compared with what county homes were like ten, 20, 30 or 35 years ago. The whole place has been renovated and made cheerful and it is as good now as, I think, any county home could be made. The statement was, therefore, entirely unjustifiable. If the statement was made, let us say, because something was wrong and if the Minister wants to improve matters, both as regards food and bedding, the remedy is in his own hands.

A Children's Bill was being prepared in the Department. I want to know what progress is being made in that connection. I was very interested in it, because I consider that the whole law with regard to boarded-out children and all children under the Children's Act and so forth is entirely out of date. I was very keen on having that Bill prepared. I should like to know whether the Minister has been presented with that Bill; and, if so, whether he intends to go on with it or not.

We have talked about good food, good housing, better treatment and other things, but, as the Minister himself has said, a very important thing is the personnel. We must have men with good medical knowledge and we have them in this country. No matter how good a man may be, if he is in a dispensary and cut away from colleges and central hospitals he has no opportunity of keeping up with modern scientific thought, of learning new ways of diagnosing and of treating the patients, and he must, therefore, get an opportunity of post-graduate study from time to time. I hope that the scheme which has been in force for some time to provide an opportunity for post-graduate study for such men will be continued and intensified. In this connection I would include post-graduate courses in special lines, such as diseases, from time to time.

I am very glad to know that the plan to provide higher training for our younger surgeons, which was inaugurated some considerable time ago, is being proceeded with. Up to this if a man did well in his final in surgery and had a taste for it he got a certain amount of training as a house surgeon, but he had to go foreign in order to get more experience. There would be no necessity for that if we were to provide our own facilities. There is no reason why we should not provide facilities in places such as St. Kevin's, where we have surgeons as good as are to be found anywhere. We should provide the facilities to enable these surgeons do their training here. I am very glad to know that that scheme is being proceeded with and that we may expect our young men to train here in future—that is, if they want to do their training here; they can go foreign if they like.

When I was in the Department of Health the scheme of sending these medical officers of health to foreign countries was inaugurated. The countries in question at the time were Canada, Denmark, Sweden and, perhaps, Great Briain. Two men would be sent, say, to Canada for six months or longer if necessary, and they would get their experience there. They would learn all about any medical advances, in addition to organisation service which is a very important training for a medical officer of health. They would be able to compare notes when they came back of what is being done in the various countries and in that way we would be able to get the best services in all the countries for our own country.

There was also a scheme for the training of nurses for higher posts. There is no such thing in this country that I am aware of as training nurses to be matrons, assistant matrons and sisters. That training could be provided also in St. Kevin's in its post-graduate school in addition to the training of the young surgeons. I hope that that will be done.

The Minister talked about a publicity officer. When I was building up the Department of Health, in addition to having a secretary, an assistant secretary and three, four or five principal officers there was to be a publicity officer. I did not get him in time and I went out, but he is the first man the Minister got and he has a Supplementary Estimate in here to pay him. A publicity officer is required in order to keep disseminating knowledge to the public about keeping healthy and the avoidance of certain diseases.

I hope, however, that he will be employed to do something other than what he has been doing up to this, as we have not heard anything from him except what the Minister is saying down the country. I hope he will get us some more useful information as time goes on. Last year, I felt at one time, it was a pity we had not got a propaganda officer at the time that the anterio poliomyelitis, or infantile paralysis, looked like making headway here. At any rate, the medical staff in the Department of Health, in co-operation with the medical officers of health in the counties, dealt with that outbreak of infantile paralysis very efficiently. They had a technique different from that adopted in other countries near us, but evidently it was the right technique, as the disease did not spread here. Great credit is due to the medical men in the Department and to the medical officers of health, for that reason.

I would like to have heard a little more about medical education, but I think the Minister has not got the information yet. As soon as the committee dealing with that makes its report, I hope that we will have the benefit of the report as speedily as possible.

The Hospital Fund is not as high as we would like it to be, but I think it was quite evident to anybody for the last few years that some time or other the expenditure on the building of hospitals and institutions of that kind would outstrip the income from the Hospital Fund and that something would have to be done to bridge the gap. No one would suggest that we should stop when that money had run out—everyone would agree that the State would have to provide it. There is no use in worrying about this Hospital Fund. As long as it is there, well and good; when it runs out, let the State provide the money, as we must go on. In that connection, I am disappointed with the Minister's target of spending about £10,000,000 in seven years. In the White Paper we issued, we thought about £37,000,000 would be required to give us all the hospitals and sanatoria that would be needed. We thought we could possibly make a great impression on that— though not complete it—in ten years. We should not stop for want of finance. Materials and workers may be a little scarce, but that will pass. We should set a higher target and reach it as soon as possible. I can assure the Minister that if he comes back here looking for more money for health services, as far as we are concerned he will get it.

Regarding local health authorities, I do not think the position is very satisfactory, as the county councils really have not time to deal with health as well as everything else. I would have proceeded to get a board of health of some sort in every county, appointed more or less on the same lines as the county committee of agriculture, and that board would look after health matters and be responsible for them. I wonder if the Minister has thought about that matter and, if so, what his opinion is.

No one would suggest either voting against an Estimate for health or cutting it down in any way. The only criticism anyone would have for a Minister for Health, whoever he may be, is that he is not spending enough money, and I am sure that is the general criticism the Minister will deal with in replying to this debate.

I would like to congratulate the Minister on the statement which he has made to-night, and also Deputy Dr. Ryan on his lucid and detailed enunciation of certain matters —even if he did not agree entirely with the views which the Minister has expressed. It seems to me to be a fair intrepretation of the Minister's statement to divide it into three categories —prevention, treatment and cure. It is under these three headings that I wish to make some observations on what he said.

The earlier part of his statement referred to what, in medical terms, is known as prophylaxis, the prevention of disease. He has enunciated to the House certain proposals which he hopes to put into practice with a view to preventing disease. Some of the means by which these proposals will be put into effect are already in existence, some he proposes to modify, and others to change a good deal. In general, the Minister's statement dealt with something new, as many of the things he said were revolutionary—or, if not entirely deserving of that word, they were capable of being interpreted as being suggestive of his determination to make radical changes in the administration of his Department, particularly in regard to the dispensary services and possibly in regard to hospitalisation. I hope that any changes he may propose to make in the administration of hospitals will not affect the traditional method of administration—generally and in principle—which has prevailed in voluntary hospitals. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-morrow.
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