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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 20 Jul 1948

Vol. 112 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 62—Wireless Broadcasting.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £163,550 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1949, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926), including Public Concerts.

In putting the Estimate for Wireless Broadcasting before the House I propose, as is usual, to deal first with the financial position and to follow with references to the main developments that took place during the past year and to future policy.

The provision required in the Estimate before you is £245,550, a decrease of £81,535 on the Estimate for last year. The decrease occurs entirely in the provision for technical equipment which is down by £108,005, but this is partly offset by increases under other sub-heads, principally in sub-head B, which covers the cost of daily programmes.

The following is a brief explanation of the causes of increase or decrease in the provision in any of the individual sub-heads in which there has been a substantial variation from the previous year.

Sub-head A, which provides for salaries and wages, shows an increase of £4,765. The increase is due principally to a strengthening of the doorkeeper staff, made necessary by an expansion of the broadcasting premises and to a change in accounting practice under which the salaries of officials on loan to the station are shown in the broadcasting Estimate instead of in the Estimates for their own Departments.

There is a fairly substantial increase of £13,550 in sub-head B, from which the fees are paid for the daily programmes. The higher provision is required mainly to pay somewhat better fees than formerly. The general increase in wage levels that have taken place has, of course, affected the payments that must be made to those who give their services for radio programmes. Actually the repercussions from the change in wage levels made themselves felt during the past year and the provision for fees in the 1947-48 Estimate was exceeded. The extra cost had to be met by savings on other sub-heads.

Sub-head C provides for musical instruments and music. The increase of £2,650 in this sub-head is needed mainly for the purchase of pianos, two of which are required for new outside halls provided permanently for studio broadcasts by the two radio orchestras. The hire and purchase of music will, of course, also cost more than formerly when there was only one orchestra.

The main cause of the increase of £4,800 in sub-head D is for the payment of the travelling and subsistence expenses of outside broadcast officers and descriptive writers and for special expenses of a temporary nature incidental to the recruitment of the enlarged symphony orchestra.

The large decrease of £108,005 in sub-head F is due to the fact that the bulk of the cost of the transmitter and aerial systems for an overseas broadcasting service which it was proposed to establish was provided in last year's Estimate. Of the sum of £60,890 provided for equipment this year, £30,000 is a revote in respect of the cost of part of the short-wave equipment. The House is aware of the position regarding the short-wave station. We are committed to part of the expenditure included this year for equipment purchased, but there will be a saving of about £14,000 on the capital expenditure provided in the sub-head. The balance of the estimated expenditure in sub-head F, apart from that intended for short-wave equipment, is for the maintenance and operation of recording equipment and for ordinary maintenance and renewals for the home service stations.

In the explanations I have given above in regard to estimated expenditure under particular sub-heads, I have taken the figures as shown in the published Estimates. As a result of the short-wave situation I anticipate a saving of about £20,000 on programme expenditure spread over the various sub-heads.

The remainder of the sub-heads do not call for comment as the estimated expenditure is normal and does not vary greatly from last year's provision. I should refer, however, to the token provision of £10 for a radio journal. A broadcasting journal is a normal appanage of most broadcasting organisations throughout the world and the need for such a journal here has long been felt. No decisions have as yet been taken or commitments entered into : the object of the provision under sub-head I is simply to secure the approval of the Dáil for whatever expenditure may be incurred in the current financial year.

The receipts from wireless licence fees for the past financial year were approximately £122,000, and from advertising programmes £64,000. In the present year the revenue from licence fees is estimated at £122,000, and from advertising at £66,000, that is a total of £188,000. The total estimated expenditure from the Wireless Broadcasting Vote and from other Votes for services performed for broadcasting, is estimated at £291,352. The excess of expenditure over revenue is, therefore, anticipated to be £103,352. The expenditure includes the cost of the short-wave transmissions, in respect of which there would be no receipts by way of licence fees, and also the sum of about £30,000, already mentioned, for the completion of the equipment. The receipts from wireless licence fees will likely be somewhat higher than that shown in the Estimate, which was, of course, framed a considerable time ago.

The House was informed on last year's Estimate that certain expansions of the programme organisation were taking place. These were introduced primarily in connection with the proposed inauguration of an overseas service, but they are no less necessary for the proper presentation of programmes for our listeners at home, and for the most part their retention is imperative. The time has passed when the specialised work of programme presentation can be allowed to depend to any considerable extent on amateur or part-time professional talent, and the additions that have been made to the programme organisation have already quite obviously lifted the standard of the station. No one, for instance, will, I think, question the success of the repertory company, that team of fulltime actors with producer and assistant producer who began work in the station about nine months ago. These are people experienced in their profession who can now devote their whole time to the perfection of broadcasting technique. Rehearsals, which formerly could only be held in the evenings to suit part-time actors, are now going on practically continuously from early morning each day and this intensive preparation is reflected in better finished work and more ambitious productions.

I should say here that the provision of light variety entertainment has been, and still is, the bug-bear of broadcasting. As a nation we have the reputation of being witty, but our wit, I believe, is of the spontaneous kind and is not easily made to order. Native professional variety artists are rare and theatres depend a good deal on cross-Channel turns. The number of variety artists here who are also good broadcasters is more limited still, so that the provision of variety shows day after day and week after week is probably the most difficult problem of our radio organisation.

Since last year's Estimate's statement, too, the bulk of the recruitment for the enlarged symphony orchestra has taken place and a light orchestra has also been found. These developments have added notably to the musical side of the programmes. The practice has been continued of bringing in continental musicians on short-term engagements to conduct the principal orchestra. To encourage the dissemination of musical knowledge— while providing an audience for the orchestra—invitations are issued each week to the public to participate, free of charge, in the symphony concerts broadcast from the orchestral studio in the Phoenix Hall. The hall is filled to capacity for every concert and enables many hundreds of Dublin people each week to hear performances of classical and contemporary music. I hope in time it will be possible to send the orchestra out to visit at least some of the larger provincial centres in order that the benefit of the only professional symphony combination in Ireland will be more widely diffused. It is necessary that people should see orchestras as well as hear them as part of the process of musical education. The second orchestra, which is being trained and conducted by a well-known Irish musician, supplies a long-felt need in the broadcasting organisation. In addition to giving regular performances of what may be termed light orchestral music, it functions as a céili band and also assists in variety shows as occasion demands.

An up-to-date mobile recording unit with van, which was recently put on the road, has in a very short time added substantially to the number of "live" descriptive features and repeatedly gives an actuality quality to the news bulletins. When a second recording unit which is on order comes into operation it should be possible to do more long term work such as obtaining material of permanent value from the Gaeltacht. One unit is likely to be fairly fully occupied in Dublin City and other centres taking recordings of current happenings.

There has been pressure in the House and elsewhere mainly on behalf of the farming community, for more localised and detailed weather reports than had been given, and the suggestion was made last year that there should be a weather forecast about 9 a.m. The matter has since been fully examined, and I am glad to say that as from the 1st April a separate forecast has been given for each of the provinces, as well as the general forecast. We have looked into the matter of a morning forecast and have discussed it with representatives of the Department of Agriculture, but taking everything into consideration, we felt that this is a development that is hardly called for. The station would, of course, have to be opened specially for the purpose, and this would involve considerable expense. In any event, in addition to the short weather bulletins at 1.30 and 6.30 p.m. the forecast prepared for 10.10 p.m. is given in more detail as required. This covers a period of 24 hours ahead, that is up to about 10 p.m. the following day, and should thus meet all reasonable needs of people preparing for the next day's farming operations. Of course, if experience shows that the forecasts now being provided do not meet the situation, we shall be happy to review it.

I have outlined the financial position of broadcasting and the principal developments that have taken place during the year and I would now like to make some general comments on broadcasting policy. On the occasion of this Estimate each year some Deputies are kind enough to give the service credit for doing as well as possible with the resources at its command while others have recommendations to make or strong criticism to offer which the Minister is expected to defend. I should like to say at once that I am aware the service has shortcomings about which I would expect to hear some dissatisfaction expressed in the House. I have, of course, been responsible for broadcasting for only a short period but it has not required any particular sagacity on my part to diagnose some of its troubles.

In the first place, the State has not unlimited resources and only a reasonable amount of money—much less than could have been used with advantage— could be placed at the disposal of the broadcasting service each year. The Department of Finance has made particular efforts to help in this direction in recent years but there are still much-needed improvements which it has so far not been found possible to effect. One of the big problems—which involve financial as well as other considerations—is that of accommodation. Although the service has been over 20 years in operation it has not yet got a building of its own. When broadcasting was first established in this country in 1926 the studios were put in a couple of rooms in business premises in this city and "makeshift" accommodation of that character has been the order ever since. In 1929 the studios were removed to the General Post Office. The General Post Office is a fine building but it was not built or designed for broadcasting. Because of the penetration of noise from the street, lack of acoustic properties and inadequate space for rehearsals and performances it is just what a broadcasting station should not be in almost every particular.

While the building is totally unsuitable for broadcasting, the space allotted for that purpose has created an almost intolerable situation for the ordinary Post Office services for which of course the premises were designed. For recent broadcasting expansion, additional blocks of space have been taken within the building, with the result that the Post Office staffs are being scattered throughout the city with consequent inconvenience and loss of efficiency for the postal services. With a view to dealing with this predicament, a site was acquired last year for a new broadcasting building and a token provision for its erection is included in the current Public Works and Buildings Estimate. I recognise, and I have no doubt the House will recognise, the magnitude of the work of erecting a broadcasting house with all the special features which are not necessary in an ordinary type of building. I also appreciate that the cost will be heavy. Because of the large cost that will be entailed and having regard to the serious problems of every kind associated with building projects at the present time, I am unable to say when the task of providing the broadcasting house can be faced. I feel, however, that I should let Deputies know who may be exercised about the standard of the programmes that the lack of proper accommodation is a serious handicap for the programme staffs, and that many of the director's difficulties cannot be removed until such time as it is found possible to provide more suitable premises.

The second great deficiency in broadcasting lies in the absence of a second programme. As Deputies know, Radio Eireann broadcasts a single programme only—and that simultaneously from the three transmitters at Athlone, Dublin and Cork—while the number of hours of broadcasting is pretty much the same as it was in 1926, when the Dublin Station was first opened. In this single programme of limited duration we have to cater for two languages and to satisfy high brow and low brow tastes and all the grades of taste in between. In the result nobody can be fully satisfied and our nationals naturally turn elsewhere for the material they can't get from the home station. I am convinced that the basic cause of whatever genuine dissatisfaction exists is to be found here, and not in the day-to-day programme policy of the station. That is probably as good, generally speaking, as it can be, having regard to the limitations of a single programme as well as those of talent, finance and accommodation with which the authorities have to contend.

There are two main problems connected with the provision of a second programme. They are: money and wavelengths. Accommodation is also a difficulty but I have already dealt with that. On the question of money it is obvious that the broadcasting service should, to the largest possible extent, be self-supporting. Development, such as I am here dealing with, must accordingly proceed in parallel with an expansion in broadcasting revenue. The second problem of wavelengths, which is in the international domain, is not within our own control. The Dublin and Cork transmitters work on low power which international regulations prevent us from increasing. A separate programme from Dublin or Cork, or from both, would cover only a limited area of the country and would not therefore be very satisfactory. An independent wavelength additional to that on which the transmissions are made from the highpower station at Athlone is, therefore, an essential. The wavelength accommodation available is, however, entirely insufficient for all the broadcasting stations operating in Europe and there is as a consequence serious congestion and interference between stations; some stations are actually working outside the wavelengths proper to broadcasting thus causing interference to other types of radio-using services.

A conference is now in session at Copenhagen at which, provided no political issues of an international character prevail, an effort will be made to bring order into the wavelength position and to draw up a plan of allocations for European broadcasting stations. We have put forward a claim for consideration by that conference for a second independent wavelength but, because of the congestion I have just mentioned, we cannot be assured that our claim can be met. Moreover, if we had an extra wavelength now and were otherwise ready to proceed with the additional programme the provision of a transmitter and other equipment would take a considerable time because of the scarcity of steel and other materials and the general frustration encountered nowadays at every step in carrying out manufacturing processes. The second programme for the reasons I have stated is, therefore, more an aim than an immediate prospect, but it is an aim that I would like to see realised as soon as circumstances permit.

The last question of policy I want to touch on is perhaps the most fundamental of them all—the question whether the present system of control and operation of the broadcasting service is the best one. This matter has often been referred to in the Press and elsewhere. My short association with broadcasting has not enabled me to form any definite views on that subject and I have an open mind on it. I do know that the Post Office was from the beginning opposed to the idea of the operation by a State Department of a service for the provision mainly of entertainment. It did not consider a Civil Service Department a suitable medium for the purpose. Experience has not disproved the Post Office view.

Inclusion in the Civil Service organisation has, of course, certain advantages, the value of which I do not underrate. For example, its well-established accounting system ensures a high degree of safety in broadcasting finances. But this elaborate system of financial control has in itself the inherent disadvantage of slowing down and stereotyping a service whose characteristics should be those of change and variety. To enable some degree of flexibility to be achieved the Minister for Finance has from time to time delegated a good deal of financial authority and quite recently these delegations were widened considerably. But the question goes beyond one of mere finance. A civil servant, by tradition and training, feels the need to anticipate difficulties to save his Department possible embarrassments. In fact, safety must be his keynote. This emphasis on safety imposes a rigidity in the material broadcast which is fatal in such a service.

I should say here that within the present broadcasting organisation a most competent staff has been collected and I am satisfied that no alternative type of organisation, such as a semi-independent corporation, would be able to secure more highly qualified people. I am quite certain they are capable of doing everything that broadcasting requires of them if they can be made to feel that they are free to do so without all the inhibitions associated with the more normal type of Civil Service department.

To give an adequate trial to the present broadcasting set-up I feel that one desirable step is the creation for these people of an atmosphere in which they can give of their best. A form of encouragement I believe in is to tell the staffs responsible for the programmes, as I do now, that I have every confidence in them and that apart from laying down policy for them in general terms I propose to give them the widest measure of freedom possible to do their job. This will help towards the provision of better programmes and will give us the opportunity of judging, at our leisure, under the better conditions created, whether a Civil Service organisation is capable of catering adequately for this most unusual type of State service. I am sure that in this task the Broadcasting Service will continue to benefit from the advice tendered by the advisory committee which is being reconstituted with an enlarged membership.

One move in the direction of loosening up the rigid limitations on the use of the radio was the suggestion I got recently in a Dáil question to allow representatives of political parties to present their views to listeners on current national affairs in uncensored statements. From the purely broadcasting point of view the director would welcome such broadcasts as he believes they would be of particular interest to listeners. All the Parties in the House were, however, given an opportunity to present their views on the subject and these were almost unanimously against the introduction of political broadcasts or indifferent to the proposal. The matter was, therefore, dropped.

Apart from purely political broadcasts I feel there is room for considerable relaxation of the attitude hitherto maintained towards discussions and debates before the microphone of matters of current interest in which there is some element of controversy. Listeners have a keen appreciation of these live topics and, provided the decencies are observed, I do not think a discussion of them on the radio does any harm. On the contrary, it may do positive good in educating public opinion or in providing an additional vent for the expression of conflicting views.

I should like to refer here to a complaint recently made in the House that the news bulletins contain political attacks against the Opposition Party. I ask the Deputies to accept my assurance that since I became Minister for Posts and Telegraphs I have not given any direction whatever in regard to the policy to be adopted in the news bulletins nor have I made the slightest suggestion as to what should or should not be included in or excluded from a bulletin. The station officials responsible for the selection and editing of items of news for broadcasting are civil servants whose conditions of employment require them not to favour any political party and I think the proper course and the fairest to all Parties is to allow them, without interference, to select the news they consider of most general interest to listeners without restrictions in regard to where the statements are made or as to the persons making them.

It is, of course, inevitable that Ministers get more publicity than private Deputies. This applied to the last Government, it applies to the present Government and will apply to any future Government. If the radio, as do the newspapers, gives more space to the statements of Ministers, who have the responsibilities of office, than they do to the speeches of ordinary Deputies I do not think that this can reasonably be held to be political bias or an attack of any sort. There has been a considerable growth of radio criticism in recent years. Most of the daily newspapers and some of the periodicals have special radio correspondents. This is all very desirable and helps the public to a keener appreciation of the possibilities of a still relatively new medium. The work of these critics deserves to be encouraged and I am glad to learn that as a development in that direction the broadcasting service is arranging for periodical conferences with these critics at which information and ideas will be exchanged. Criticism is wholesome; the only plea I make regarding it is that it should not descend to personal abuse of the officials of Radio Éireann who are not able, because of their office, to defend themselves.

That concludes my statement. I have confined myself mainly to matters of policy, and I would be much obliged to Deputies if they would adopt the same line. Information on matters of detail can more appropriately be got by personal or written inquiry to the Director of Broadcasting.

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. Perhaps it is at this time that I should also move the other motion which is to be taken with this Estimate.

It can be discussed with the Estimate and formally moved afterwards. The Deputy can proceed to discuss it now.

The following motion stood in the names of Deputies Lemass and Little:

"That the Dáil records its disapproval of the Government's decision to abandon the plans for the establishment of a short-wave broadcasting station."

I propose to discuss, first of all, the question of the short-wave station which was to have been set up but which is, unfortunately, owing to the attitude of the present Government, being closed down. Indeed, it looks as if it is going to be abolished altogether. We had experience during the last war of trying to reach the outer world by means of a short-wave apparatus, the power of which was too low. Nothing could be said against our experts who did their very best. They were very capable people, but the power was too low to reach the outer world. I think that on one or two occasions it did reach Canada, but otherwise it was entirely inadequate. We came to the conclusion that it would be absolutely necessary—that it would have been the duty of any Government especially with a view to any further emergency that might occur—that we should take the first opportunity of building a short-wave station. By good fortune we were able, after the emergency, to enter into contracts and to get the plant. In the course of the year or two which followed that plant arrived and was largely set up. It was vital that we should proceed that way because we could not claim the allocation of a wavelength until we had actually got the plant and that it should be in the process of being set up. Otherwise, we would have no claim to get a wavelength.

It is very important that people should realise that: that we could not have gone to the international conference in Atlantic City unless, first of all, we had entered into the financial commitments for the setting up of the masts, and so the work proceeded. Three masts were set up, and the fourth was on the way of being established when the change of Government came. In the meantime, our negotiators, our officers, went to Atlantic City where they established a high reputation for themselves on account of their approach to this whole world problem. It was a very difficult problem because there had been no conference since before the war. Even the allocation of the wavelength, which took place almost immediately before the war, had never been carried into effect. People may have got wireless sets at that time, but the wavelengths were incorrectly marked, so that the position was fairly chaotic. Then, again, during the war various conflicting governments and countries took over wavelengths, and all that had to be disentangled. Principles were agreed upon by which they could proceed before they could get the allocation of a wavelength. In the course of these conferences, our negotiators put up the proposal that no country should get a very large share of the waveband until every country had got a reasonable share.

That, of course, was the first really good step taken towards our chances of getting a wavelength. The atmosphere of friendliness that was created amongst all the negotiating parties was such that there was every hope that we would get a wavelength at the next conference which is to take place in the fall of this year in Mexico. Our people had conversations with the other countries. These would have meant that by sharing the wavelength with other countries we would have been able to get two air space covering sectors of the world, and a certain amount of air space, I assume, in the air channel so far as the United States is concerned for listening in.

The contention that we had no chance of getting a wavelength was quite a misstatement of the whole situation. It was based on the statement of the Minister for Finance in the Seanad when he said that recommendations had been made by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs setting out the difficulties and pointing out that it would be almost impossible to get a wavelength. But that memorandum, even according to him, was five years old before the attempt had been made to try to get a wavelength. If we were to be deterred by the difficulties which it is the duty of a Department to put up to the Government, you would never do anything. Here let me answer the charge so far as it concerns myself. I signed that memorandum. It was my duty to present the difficulties to the Government, although as a member of the Government I was entitled to take a different point of view. But it was essential that the Government should have all the facts and difficulties before it. That does not by any means tie the hands of the members of the Government in making a decision upon the larger considerations. After all, if we were to refuse to do anything because of the difficulties nothing would be done at all.

As I have said, the negotiations proceeded, and then they were adjourned to another conference which is to take place in Mexico. Now if our people do not go to Mexico we may lose the chance of ever getting a short-wave allocation at any time in the future, and whatever may be the view held about the immediate expenditure it would be real national sabotage not to make sure that we get radio allocation. In that way, we at least will have secured the position for the moment.

The real issue here is the importance of having a short-wave station or not. On that there is a very wide divergence of opinion in this House. We regard it as one of vital importance, and there are other Parties, too, who were assumed to regard it as of vital importance. From the point of view of defence, it is necessary that the voice of Ireland should be heard in all those places where influential public opinion operates amongst our own race all over the world: in all those institutions which have been set up by Irishmen and Irishwomen all over the world and which would be centres from which opinions would be moulded, as well as by people who are not of the Irish race but who take an interest in, and have sympathy with and support the principles for which Ireland stands, on questions such, for example, as Partition and the general outlook of Ireland. These are all moulders of opinion all over the world, and it is with them that one desires to keep in contact. It is a very poor criticism to say that the cheaper sets in America have not got the short-wave series on them. That really does not affect the situation because these institutions, these people who are keenly interested to listen to Ireland, all Irishmen who have friends here at home and relations will make sure that they will get the kind of set that will enable them to listen in. When the Minister for Finance, however, puts forward these arguments, it is apparent that he does not hold that it is a vital service for Ireland.

Is it not the high frequency set that will get Ireland?

It has nothing to do with it. There is a modulated frequency, an expensive system which is used in America but it is not used to a wide extent and it is used for very limited purposes. It has nothing to do with the short-wave. The issue is do we regard the extra series from the view of being in touch with people all over the world, of breaking down what the late Arthur Griffith used to call "the paper wall between us and the world", of keeping up our historical traditions of keeping in touch with the outside world through the centuries. To cut down the short-wave is a complete reversal of national policy.

If I may ask a question. In case of a crisis could not the present station as it is at present constituted burst in on a wavelength and be heard in any part of the world?

Except for meteorological purposes there is no short-wave and, even if it were used, it would be a very weak arm compared to a short-wave which people had been listening to and which had given the people the habit of listening to Ireland. As well as having a short-wave, you must encourage people through the newspapers and so on to create a habit of keeping in contact before the crisis came off. They will not listen to the meteorological short-wave, and if they hear anything from that it will be by the merest accident.

The real issue is whether we take the view that we want to keep in touch with people all over the world and whether we want that arm of defence. I believe that this is a fundamental difference between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. I am sorry that Deputy Lehane took up the attitude on this issue of running away from his own convictions because the Fine Gael Party was able to say "boo" to a goose. On other matters the influence of other Parties in the inter-Party Government was able to insist that Fine Gael carry out schemes which they proposed to get rid of. If Clan na Poblachta had the strength of conviction which they contend that they have they could easily have forced the Government to give way on this matter and carry out the national policy as it had been outlined before. One has only to realise what a loss it was during the last war not to have had this; also when we were fighting our war of independence world propaganda helped our soldiers at home. Without that we could never have carried on that unequal struggle against a great Power, Since then, wireless has developed very much and you cannot carry on propaganda unless you have it. There is, of course, the question of expense, but it has already been pointed out in the statement that the net expenditure is only £103,000 odd, the capital expenditure being £110,000. The money is already being spent; there may be £40,000 or £50,000 more to be spent, but that is all. Considering what other countries spend—England during the war spent about £10,000,000 a year on radio broadcasting—we should have some sense of proportion as to the amount of money we would be prepared to spend on it. We spent only £103,000 on it this year.

We should consider a thing which I always bring up because I think the principle is as good to-day as it was formerly; the Minister for Finance for Cumann na nGaedheal, long ago when he was introducing the duty on radio sets imported into this country, said that the money should be earmarked and set against expenditure on radio. The money during that period runs well over £1,000,000, probably £1,500,000. From year to year, taking the total sum, it would easily cancel any expenditure on this matter. We should not then regard this very small amount of £103,000 a year as being too much.

Another objection was that we would not have people to speak foreign languages. This, of course, is not true at all, because all our announcers, I think, must know a few foreign languages and we actually distinguished ourselves on a previous occasion when one of our announcers was taken to Geneva because of his facility in speaking several languages. The issue in effect is not the difficulties which has been put up with regard to saving money, but whether you regard this as being a really important and vital national service or not, and it is on that the House should divide, not on any other issue.

Turning then to the general policy of radio, radio has become, not merely in Ireland but everywhere else, the centre for cultural activity—debates, drama, music, lectures on science and entertainment of every kind be it high-brow or low-brow. In fact, it is regarded now in all countries as being the expression of the culture of the country and for that reason it is of very great importance indeed. Some people like to assume a kind of sophisticated toughness; they like to be regarded as curmudgeons from the point of view of culture, not because they are not quite intelligent and quite capable of enjoying the good thing, but because they think that that kind of thing goes down with the public. I do not think that it goes down with the public at all. The Irish farmers are as appreciative of good stuff as anybody else and as anxious that their children should learn the best, have distinguished careers and do well afterwards in every walk of life, including the world of drama, music or other cultural activities.

That raises a question which has been in controversy for some time, the question of Sunday orchestral concerts. There has been a continuous complaint that these Sunday concerts had to cease. Concerts given in a cinema are always subject to very great difficulties, because you are limited to Sunday afternoon which is, generally speaking, a bad time for concerts, because people, especially young people, want to go out into the fresh air and enjoy sport and so on. The success of these concerts was greatly decreased owing to the fact that they were held on Sunday afternoon.

Then there were financial difficulties and certainly it made one realise that the only real answer is to have a proper concert hall. With that in mind, the Government took a very keen interest in trying to bring about a situation in which we would have a proper national concert hall, and preliminary agreements were entered into to sign a contract with the Rotunda, in order to build a concert hall in Cavendish Row, immediately beside the Rotunda, the Rotunda to be regarded as the foyer or a place where various public functions could take place. It might even be a source of revenue because it could be used for the purposes of various organisations and societies and there would be the concert hall along the side of the street there. With that in mind, we sent our experts, our architect and radio engineer, to Northern Europe last year and got them to go through the various radio studios and bring back the accumulated knowledge of what is wanted in connection with a concert hall, and the plans for that concert hall were completed before I left office. For years, people have been crying out in Ireland for a proper concert hall in Dublin and such a hall would be of enormous benefit, I need scarcely say, to the radio, because you would then have a really big audience of 2,000 people and would be able to give the country what it deserves in the way of adequate and first-class music and would remove a blot from, I might say, our civilisation, because there is really no country of the standard of education of Ireland which has not got a decent concert hall in its capital. We have not got one, so that I hope there is still a chance of these plans being carried out and a concert hall being built to fill a long felt want not merely for the people of Dublin but for the people of Ireland, because people come up to these concerts from all over the country. I hope it will be carried out in co-operation with the radio.

Surely the people of Dublin want houses more than concert halls?

That is the argument which has always been put up. There is no reason why one should not be done and the other neglected. There is no reason why, if we could get the proper co-operation of labour and the other people concerned, the two could not be done. Look at the number of cinemas which have been put up by private enterprise. Look at the Butlin Camp, which sprang up like a mushroom. Surely the Board of Works could set about the job in something of the spirit of those responsible for the Butlin Camp.

Why did you not build it in 16 years?

We were——

Making the plans.

I am tired answering that argument. There was an emergency up to two years ago and I think we did extremely well in getting to the point of almost signing a contract and having the plans completed.

Who gave the material for Butlin's Camp?

I am not going to discuss Butlin's Camp?

You are very sure, but you will not say.

I do not know anything about it. They must have got it from the Labour people. The studio accommodation for the radio station is absurd and it is unfair to the Post Office that the studio should be situated in a building which should be used for postal purposes. We had purchased a site of 17 acres with a house on which our people who had been abroad and had seen all the studios were in a position to plan proper studios. I do not know how the radio people carry on at present. With increased staff, the increased number of dramatic groups and the excellent programmes which have to be prepared and rehearsed, it is a puzzle to me how they are able to do it at all. That is another of these projects which, I am afraid, has been put on the long finger.

I am glad that the Minister has decided to bring the advisory committee into activity again and I hope he will pursue the line we followed of getting Irish taught in the schools over the radio. I do not know how far he has been able to carry out successful negotiations with the Department of Education, but the ideas we had then were that absolutely first-class teachers in Irish would give lessons over the radio to all the schools which took advantage of the radio. It is done in England. All over Britain, very admirable lessons are given and there is a certain technique of making sure that the students take full advantage of the service by means of examination in the subjects and so on. It is one of the things which would be most helpful in getting a really good standard of Irish all over the country.

There are two other matters which I feel bound to raise. One is the matter of partisan reports on the radio. Our policy was that, while Ministers got preference with regard to any statements they had to make, first, because they were good news and secondly, because it was a direction to the country as to what Government policy was, we did not exclude the criticisms, summarised, if you like, of the Opposition speakers and often people criticised the radio because we gave too much to the Opposition, but we at least tried to balance things. Partisan reporting on the radio is very unwise because giving a purely partisan flavour, giving only Ministers' statements, as was done the other night, and not giving the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition, although there was plenty of time to do so, will have a very bad effect on the radio itself, because at least half the people of Ireland are Fianna Fáil in opinion and they will be exasperated and just will not listen because they will be so annoyed at the idea of a public institution being used for partisan purposes. I know that it is a difficult policy to carry out to get a perfect balance, but I suggest that the Minister should insist, no matter who is responsible for it, whether it is the Government publicity department or anybody else, on a balance as near as possible, because it is he who must accept responsibility in the House for what really amounts to a scandal and is causing a great deal of annoyance to people in general.

Another matter to which I must draw the attention of the Minister is that a permanent official of his Department is running a monthly paper which has taken sides in politics with considerable emphasis. If that is allowed to continue, there is no reason why any other officer should not start some other paper and take an opposite view. We want to know where this is going to stop. There were times when I was in office when that complaint was made, and, by disciplinary action, we tried to control it, but I feel that now, especially in view of the July issue of that paper, the Minister will have to take very grave notice of the completely partisan attitude taken up in that paper. I should like to say that I appreciate very much the tremendous advance made in the station on both the programme and musical sides, and I hope that the station will get every encouragement and facility to continue on the lines on which they are at present working.

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom rud amháin a chur in iúl don Aire, sé sin, gur cóir dó caingean nó beartas deimhnitheach a bheith aige maidir leis an tseirbhís seo. Mura mbíonn beartas agus plean deimhnitheach aige chun feabhas a chur ar an tseirbhís foirleatha diaidh ar ndiaidh, ní éireoidh leis. Molaim dó leis nach gá dó tabhairt fé gach aon rud a dhéanamh láithreach bonn ná in aon bhliain amháin ach má bhíonn plean deimhnitheach aige d'fhédfadh sé feabhas do chur ar an tseirbhís seo do réir a chéile.

Ba mhaith liom, leis, a chur ina luí air a thábhachtaí is atá an tseirbhís seo maidir le athbheochaint na Gaeilge mar ghnáth-theanga labhartha anseo. Ní dóigh liom go dtí seo gur baineadh an fheidhm as an radio a d'fhéadfaí a bhaint as agus is dóigh liom má chuireann an tAire chuige i gceart go n-éireoidh leis ard-fheidhm a bhaint as an tseirbhís sin mar uirlís athbheochana ar an teanga.

While Deputy Little was speaking, I resisted the temptation to interject when he disclosed an attitude of mind that he felt he was in a position to level taunts against the members of the Clann na Poblachta Party because of their attitude in connection with the Government's decision regarding the short-wave radio station. The motion put down in the names of Deputy Lemass and Little, which we are now discussing with the Estimate, if I understand the Minister aright, bears no real relation to the Government's decision. In so far as I understand the Government's decision to date, it has been decided that the plans for the establishment of a short-wave radio station in this financial year are not being proceeded with. Surely, it is an unwarranted straining of the ordinary usage of the English language to describe that as an abandonment. Were I convinced that an emphatic decision had been taken by the Government to abandon completely the short-wave radio station and to commit the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to a policy which would mean that at no future time could we have a short-wave radio station, I would be opposed to it but, as I understand the Government's decision, it is a simple decision not to proceed with these plans for the current financial year.

That is a question which had far better be addressed to the Minister than to me. I am dealing with the policy of the Department as outlined by the Minister and I am relating that to the motion in the names of the Deputy's two colleagues. I would ask the Minister for this assurance, that before this very valuable equipment is disposed of, he will come back to the Dáil and let the House have an opportunity of making a decision on the matter. I would certainly consider it a very unwise policy on the part of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs were this valuable equipment, very properly procured by his predecessor, to be disposed of without reference to the House. I trust there will be no necessity to dispose of the equipment already purchased and that the erection of the short-wave radio station is merely postponed. I think that is the general sense of the Minister's statement to this House and I think the motion in the terms set out bears no relation to the realities of the situation.

What about the Mexico conference and the allocation of a wavelength? If you do not get that, you are lost.

Again, while I am very loath to contradict a former Minister on a subject with which he should be much better acquainted than I am, I will have the temerity to disagree with him when he says that, if we do not get the wavelength at the Mexico conference, we are lost. The important thing is to keep the equipment here.

To pass to the Estimate generally and the Minister's policy as outlined by him, I would first of all urge on him that he should set before himself a policy of gradual improvement in the broadcasting service. It would be unreasonable to expect that all the many improvements that, it is suggested from time to time, should be carried out in any one financial year should be carried out forthwith, but I think the Minister should have a progressive plan for an improvement and an extension of the broadcasting service.

I would like to take this opportunity of going on record as one of those who do not agree with the uninformed and often-repeated strictures upon the broadcasting service in this country. I do not know whether my tastes are vitiated or not, but I must confess that, as a matter of choice, I would prefer to listen to the programmes of Radio Éireann than to those from any other station. Much of the criticism directed against radio in the past has been uninformed and prejudiced. In the presentation of plays and documentaries, particularly, Radio Éireann compares very favourably with anything I have heard from the British Broadcasting Company. Many of the artistes and members of the repertory company find it almost impossible to carry on, due to the limited studio accommodation available. On many occasions you have band or musical rehearsals in one room and, immediately beside it and perfectly audible, there are either play or variety programmes being broadcast or rehearsed. If the Minister could arrange for more studio accommodation, even in the present buildings in Henry Street, there would be a marked improvement in the quality of the programmes.

I think it would be quite feasible to broadcast a second programme from either Dublin or Cork along with the normal programme on the Athlone band. I understand that the Cork station is working on 25 per cent. of its potential kilowattage. That is rather a pity, inasmuch as it is from that Cork station we would have the best chance of reaching people interested in Irish programmes, people of Irish race or descent in southern England.

The Minister has not outlined in any great detail what plans he has for the use of mobile recording units, but I know that many people in the broadcasting services are very anxious that these units should be more fully developed, particularly as a means of making available talent in country places which would otherwise remain undiscovered.

The Minister should consider extending the hours of broadcasting as far as he can. I know the arguments that have been made against that. One of the reasons our people are prone to listen to programmes from the B.B.C. is the availability of B.B.C. programmes during hours when Radio Éireann is not broadcasting.

The Minister did not make any reference—nor perhaps should he be expected to—to the use of the radio for the purpose of anti-Partition propaganda. In my submission, the fullest possible use should be made of this valuable vehicle of publicity to put before the people of the world the injustice perpetrated on our country by Britain through Partition.

I think I will find a good deal of agreement when I say it was hardly in the best possible taste for the present Minister's predecessor, now Deputy Little, to refer to partisanship in the operation of the broadcasting services. I do not want to go any further than that, but I hope the Minister will resist the temptation, no matter from what quarter it comes, to impose political tests such as were imposed by his predecessor in order to prevent a very popular and very capable broadcasting artist from reaching the Irish public on the air.

Deputy Lehane pretends to be very naive. He does not yet know that, when the Fine Gael Government which he is responsible for putting into power says that it does not intend to proceed with a matter this year, that means it is put into abeyance and "put into abeyance" means that it is abandoned and that they know Deputy Lehane and others will support them in that abandonment.

Even if the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is going to commit himself to some vague promise that in the distant future he will erect a broadcasting station or will agree to its being erected by somebody else, the Minister for Finance has indicated that, as far as he is concerned, this short-wave broadcasting business is to come to an end. In the Seanad on Wednesday, 30th June, as given in col. 302 he said:—

"I do not know that anything more ought to be said about the short-wave station. It is a bit of a standing condemnation of Fianna Fáil so long as even the masts stick up into the air."

The Minister for Finance, whom Deputy Lehane put in here in control of the affairs of this State, is determined that even the masts will come down, to be used as Deputy Dillon wanted radio masts used, to be turned into knitting needles to knit the wool of the rabbits that soon will be running on Rineanna, he hoped.

Is that a quotation?

It is, from the Minister for Agriculture here who was known as Deputy Dillon. It is all very well for Deputy Lehane to say that the short-wave radio might be used in the anti-Partition campaign. As far as he is concerned, he has pretty well decided that it is not going to be used for such purposes, while he is supporting the Fine Gael Government.

Is it in order for the Deputy to misquote me? I referred to the use of the radio generally for anti-Partition propaganda.

Are we going to talk to ourselves about Partition or try to reach that part of the world that the Six County people are reaching at the moment with pro-Partition propaganda? Perhaps Deputy Lehane will tell me that he does not know that there is such a thing on the short-wave wireless at the moment as a pro-Partition programme called the "Ulster Half-hour". He knows that that is going on, that the short-waves are being used by the Partitionists in the Six Counties to put across their side of the case to the world, and Deputy Lehane is going to approve of the present Fine Gael Government, that he put into power——

On a point of order, is it in order for the Deputy to refer to the Government as the Fine Gael Government?

What else is it?

I do not think it is a matter of disorder. It might be called "the Government".

Judge it by its results. Did not the Minister for Agriculture order the creameries the other day to shut down on cheese?

The Minister for Agriculture's policy regarding creameries has nothing to do with this.

No. The closing down of people in productive employment here was Fine Gael policy, it is to-day and it is going to be operated as Fine Gael policy; and Deputy Lehane, although he may weep tears here now over that policy, is going to support its operation.

He is not supporting a policy that sent 225,000 people into emigration.

The Deputy support a policy that sent 300,000 into emigration between 1922 and 1932 to America. If he wants to look up the figures he can do so. During our time at least we did not make any secret of our distress at people leaving the country to go to work in England during the war.

You did not stop them.

We asked them to stay at home and to build up here if they could at all. We did not pretend that they were going over to England to see their friends, as Deputy Lehane's new-found Government used to say about the 30,000 yearly who went to America.

Emigration is not relevant to this Estimate.

It is Deputy Lehane who brought it in. Deputy Lehane is prepared to support the Fine Gael Government in abandoning the short-wave radio station. All the money that was required for capital purposes has been spent upon it, or practically all of it. Deputy Lehane at some time or another wants £103,000 to be spent on the full running of the short-wave radio station, because that is what it is estimated to cost. Deputy Lehane and his Party promised free credits for everything. What is £103,000 even to the Minister for Finance? Last year on the Department of Agriculture Vote he stated that £217,000,000 was not a frightening figure. Therefore £103,000 is a mere bagatelle.

Deputy Lehane is quite prepared to let the partitionists continue their proPartition propaganda while he refuses to support the plea that £103,000 should be spent on this short-wave radio station in order that the Irish point of view on any question, Partition or anything else, should get over the iron curtain. Arthur Griffith used to talk about a paper wall. Deputy Lehane is going to stand in with Fine Gael in putting an iron curtain round the country if they can. Not only is he prepared to abandon the short-wave station, but he also stood behind them in the abandonment of modern transportation to other countries. Why not use some of these free credits which they were talking about around the country?

The Deputy knows the answer to that question.

After all, the people put Clann na Poblachta in a position to put Fine Gael back in power. They gave the Minister for External Affairs, Deputy MacBride, the reins of Government.

They gave us a mandate to put you out.

They gave the Minister for External Affairs the reins of Government, and at the present time he is using a very slack rein on the Fine Gael Government. All the other Parties in this inter-Party Government can get their price from Fine Gael for their support. Clann na Poblachta cannot. Why do they not get even a short-wave station? If the partitionists are using the short-wave to put forward their point of view, justifying the partition of Ireland, and talking about the beautiful spectacle presented by the procession on the 12th July in the North, why cannot Deputy Lehane at least say: "We must get this bagatelle of £103,000 a year if we are to continue to support you"? I ask Deputy Lehane to have another whisper with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs before this debate is over, and let the Minister get up here and give us some more hopeful news about this short-wave broadcasting before the debate concludes.

As an ex-Minister for Finance I do not want to see the moneys collected from the people misspent or spent injudiciously. But, when I was Minister for Finance and the case was put up that in this country we should have a short-wave broadcasting station in order to put the Irish point of view to the rest of the world, I was prepared to support the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs on that matter, even though it did cost £200,000 or so of capital expenditure and was calculated to cost £103,000 a year. I hope that in the interests of the country, irrespective of Party, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will get on with his job of erecting this station; that he will get it going so that he can apply at the next conference in Mexico, or where-ever it is to be held, for the wavelengths. Those of us who opened our political eyes before 1920 will remember the bitter complaints made by the nationally-minded people of the country when Great Britain shut us out from all contact with the world and then blackguarded us on the other side of the paper wall. If we are to prevent that happening again, we should be able to get contact by modern means with the people who are interested in Ireland in other parts of the world. Deputy Collins is going to get up and give another tiny excuse for the abandoning of this short-wave station. He is going to say that the modern radio station in America has a modulated frequency. There is one modulated frequency station in the United States and there are probably a couple of thousand suitable listening sets.

The Deputy should not be so foolish as to try to anticipate what I may say.

All over the world the people listen in to other countries through the medium of the short-wave broadcasting system. At present they are listening every week to pro-partitionist propaganda.

You did not use any.

They only started after it was announced here that we were going to abandon any effort to get in touch with the world.

Will the Deputy answer a question?

I will answer any question.

What number of hours of broadcasting of anti-Partition propaganda was there during your last ten years in office?

There was pro-Irish propaganda every hour. The real propaganda is to put forward to the rest of the world, so far as we can reach it, the best that is in our people.

Does that mean that there was none?

Of course it does.

Deputy Lehane cannot get away from this. I asked him why this was not being proceeded with. It is not being proceeded with because the Minister for Finance told the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs: "I have promised to get another £1,122,000 into my net. You are to get for my net the money that was going to be spent on short-wave broadcasting."

Old age pensioners are more important.

The cat is out of the bag. There is no use in Deputy C. Lehane or anybody else trying to put it back in the bag. The reason the short-wave broadcasting station is being abandoned is for the purpose of saving money for the Minister for Finance.

And for the old age pensioners.

The old age pensioners have already been well provided for by the £600,000 which was taken from the national health insurance people; by the £450,000 in connection with the widows' and orphans' pensions, and by the £750,000 or nearabouts that is being saved in relation to agricultural development. The old age pensions were estimated to cost £600,000 this year. Two million pounds have been saved under the three measures which I have outlined and this will be put into the pocket of the Minister for Finance. Deputy C. Lehane may think out all the excuses he likes I hope he will have another whisper with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and that before this debate is over the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will give us some more cheerful news about the short-wave broadcasting station.

A Deputy

You will want some more cheerful news.

I will deal first of all with the motion by Deputy Lemass and by Deputy Little. Deputy Little has just yielded up the stewardship of the Post Office after a considerable number of years. No matter where he has been questioned he has not yet been able to indicate anything more than embryo as far as a short-waveband for this country is concerned. I agree thoroughly with Deputy C. Lehane. As a Fine Gael Deputy, let me say, for the information of Deputy Aiken, that I agree emphatically with what Deputy C. Lehane has said to the effect that this policy of the short-wave station should not be abandoned until careful consideration has been given to it and until it is proved impracticable. If it is proved impracticable I think we will then be coerced to the conclusion that it must be abandoned.

I hope the Minister will send representatives to Mexico and I hope that we will get a wave-band. I feel that there is now more necessity than ever before for us to get Partition propaganda across to the world in view of the amount that is being talked about it by the Leader of the Opposition and his colleague, Mr. Aiken, since they left office. A long, long period of silence is broken when Fianna Fáil leaves office and then, in an amazing trans-world cycle, we have the chain lightening of the Leader of the Opposition——

Mr. de Valera

"Long silence" is not true. There has been no silence.

It is very true.

I am touching a very sore point——

This is not a debate on Partition.

The use of the short-wave station for Partition purposes is relative to the policy of the short-wave station and it has been introduced into this debate by the movers of this motion on the short-wave radio station. Their basis of complaint is that we have now no way of penetrating the paper wall. I recollect, and Deputy de Valera can correct me if I am wrong, that he made a statement once to the effect that the radio was no means by which Partition could be solved. The short-wave radio station can be a national asset. If, as I believe —and Deputy Little agrees with me— the present condition of the short-wave station permits us in the case of an emergency or of a national crisis to crash in on wave-bands I feel the Minister should reserve the station, such as it is at the moment. We should all realise by now that most of the propaganda done during the last world holocaust was done on unrecognised wavelengths.

If we are sincere in the fact that we want this station for the purpose of getting the ear of the outside world and if the Minister finds it impossible to go any further than preserve the facilities he has to reach the outside world, I will be perfectly satisfied. I should, however, like the Minister to give some kind of a chance to the short-wave radio station from the point of view of trying to procure a waveband. I should like him to come back to this House, as Deputy C. Lehane would like him, at some future date and tell us the real position. If it is as sorry as I think it is, I hope he will have the courage to come and tell us in no uncertain way about it. A good deal of capital has been made out of the subject of the short-wave radio station. Deputy Little says that we could not get the equipment until 1945—quite forgetting that from 1932 to 1939 he could have got all the equipment he wanted for his short-wave radio station if he had then wanted it. Unless the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, running a commercial undertaking on a commercial basis, can come into this House and give us a reasonable assurance that the short-wave radio station will be heard abroad I do not think we will be justified in the expenditure of a very large annual sum for running it.

On the subject of radio generally, I think that with the best will in the world the wrong people to run radio are civil servants. I feel that the Minister should contemplate the possibility of a different type of directorship and managementship of radio altogether—one that would be virtually independent so far as it would be possible within a general statement of policy to make any director of radio independent. Some very good features are broadcast by Radio Éireann.

I am in entire agreement with Deputy Lehane on that point. So far as plays, in particular, are concerned the standard is very high, in fact, excellent. I have, however, a feeling that there is a want of balance about the programmes of Radio Éireann. That can only be met by bringing into the directorship of it people whose whole life and environment has been in a general type of show or radio back-ground—people who are really knowledgeable from the point of view of actually being artistes themselves or of being so acquainted with production as to be of some real assistance to the station. I should like to ask Deputy Little—particularly in view of his present loud talk about using a short-wave radio station for the purpose of putting the evil of Partition to the world and, in the same breath, about developing culture and employing Irish artists and so forth at home—why he permitted such a terrific recruitment of foreign artistes to work in Radio Éireann. Did he really explore the possibility of getting suitable Irish applicants for these positions and why is such a preference in remuneration shown to foreign artistes? If Radio Éireann is to be anything I say that it must be symbolic of Ireland and her tradition. That symbolism and that tradition of Ireland can be best transmitted to the world through the medium of people born and reared in this country and steeped in the tradition of this country who have proved their efficiency either as musicians, singers or various other types of artistes.

I think the Minister should seriously review the matter. There are many features in Radio Éireann that I would like to see in more frequent use. I would like, too, to have some hours in the morning devoted to a certain type of entertainment suitable to those of us who have to remain at home such as is given by the B.B.C. at the moment. Considering the popularity of the present recorded programmes at midday and of the Irish Hospitals' Sweep at night I think the Minister would be fully justified in introducing a musical programme along traditional Irish lines, thereby offering our people throughout the country some reasonable entertainment during the morning hours and weaning them away from their present devotion to the B.B.C.

I do not wish to introduce a note of dissension into this debate. Neither do I wish to be deliberately provocative but I do think the time has come when the radio of this country might be used with advantage in educating the general public in relation to incidents and individuals prominent in our history. I think the Minister should introduce speeches dealing with the lives of historical personages as a corrective to the present distorted views held by our own people. No matter what Deputy Little may say about partisanship, I hold that during the past 16 years the radio was stifled so far as opponents to the existing régime were concerned. The time has come when the radio should be used to correct the deliberate perversion of the lives and aims of people who are now dead. I would like to have interesting short talks given on the radio. I would like to see the programme dealing with '98 enlarged and expanded to bring within its scope the heroes and the martyrs of 1916, and subsequent years, who left their mark on the destiny of this country.

I thing great improvement could be made in the radio programmes if less highbrow music was used. I am not a devotee of highbrow music. I want to see programmes of characteristic Irish music. I would like to see presentations in the Irish language of reasonably good plays. I think such plays have a definite entertainment value. There is a feature in the Irish Press at the moment in which a new phrase in Irish is given every day. I think something similar could be done on the radio. One quarter of an hour per day could be devoted to a progressive type of programme in the Irish language giving words and phrases in common use and helping to keep alive the knowledge of the Irish language in some people and to revive interest in it on the part of others. If we were really in earnest about reviving our language we would take every means at our disposal to encourage its growth.

When the Minister reconvenes the advisory council I want him to consider seriously the question of balance as far as Radio Éireann programmes are concerned. I do not care very much for jazz music or light swing but at the same time I think the Minister might consider the desirability of giving those of our people who like that kind of music an hour's programme two or three times per week. I think the programme needs balance. At the moment there are certain items that stand out.

Practically everybody likes to listen to a good play. Practically everybody likes the midday recorded programme and the Hospitals Sweep programme. Nobody can deny that we are all interested in sport and sports commentaries. I think Radio Éireann, considering all the drawbacks it suffers under in regard to accommodation and so forth, has done a pretty good job in regard to sports commentaries generally. The Olympic Games will shortly be held in Britain and I hope the Minister will have some facilities for broadcasting those events in which Irish athletes are taking part. Such features are a definite improvement in the programme. With 20 odd years' experience behind us we should now be able to make adjustments to meet the needs of a modern situation.

The radio could be utilised as a means of helping such a programme as I have suggested. There could be a simple type of Irish lesson during the early part of the morning and it would give an impetus to the language revival. Then the radio could give our housewives a type of light entertainment, light music that they can listen to while at their work, and it could also give us some commentary on sports and other events of general public interest.

I would like to deal now with the suggestion that there is a good deal of partisanship on the radio, that certain people are given more prominence than others. It is in the nature of our Parliament that people holding Ministerial rank, or holding the positions occupied by Deputy de Valera or Deputy Lemass in the Opposition, will get a good deal more prominence than ordinary Deputies. I do not think anybody can quarrel with that. Ministers are, in theory at any rate, responsible for the running of the State; they make pronouncements on policy and on the future of this country and it is not unreasonable to expect that in certain news items they would be given more prominence. I have the distinction of never having been mentioned on the radio and it does not worry me. Why should we quarrel when the people editing these news items are, as the Minister says, doing their best in an impartial way and are dissociated from any political group?

The Minister has, in Radio Éireann, one of the big cultural instruments that the country possesses. He has there an organisation for the development of Irish culture. He should try to build up a programme on the basis of our culture and the needs of our people. Above all, he should concentrate as rapidly as possible on engaging Irish people and he should have as little foreign interference and as few foreign artistes as possible.

With the exception of Deputy Collins's rather superfluous remarks about the short-wave station, I agree to a large extent with what he said. Deputy Collins apparently is satisfied that the short-wave station would be a most advantageous thing for this country. It will be rather hard for him later on to reconcile his action, when he is voting against this motion, with what he has just said. The abandonment of the short-wave station is, in my opinion, a national scandal. With that remark I leave it, and I shall confine myself to the existing station.

There is an old saying with reference to fooling the people and perhaps I shall be allowed to turn that saying slightly, to sum up the criticisms and the difficulties with which the Minister is faced so far as broadcasting is concerned. You can please some of the people all of the time and all the people some of the time, but you can not please all the people all the time. There is only a limited time each day at the disposal of Radio Éireann and, therefore, in its efforts to cater for all tastes, I agree with Deputy Collins that it has done a very good job in the past. As a means of overcoming its present shortcomings, I suggest that the Department should proceed as soon as possible with the establishment of an alternative programme. I believe it is part of the Government's policy to have an alternative medium-wave programme. That may not be as difficult as it seems to be just now, because we actually have a second station. The wave-band might not be as powerful as the Dublin wave-band, but in Cork we have a station which could well be utilised for the transmission of an alternative programme.

I do not mention this because I happen to represent Cork City. I believe it would be quite popular, and it is one way of overcoming the criticism with which the Minister is faced in relation to the defects of broadcasting from Radio Éireann. In Cork there is a broadcasting station in what was formerly an old jail. It is on a good height and, with a little renovation, it would make an ideal permanent transmitting station. For many years Cork has held a high place in the musical world and its artistes have been recognised for their ability and taste. In the dramatic and operatic world Cork also holds a position of honour and in recent years it has enhanced its reputation in that respect. If there were a permanent transmitting station in Cork I can guarantee to the Minister that he will have sufficient artistes there for any type of programme.

Broadcasting in this country has not been brought to the same pitch as in other countries. At the present time it does not offer many attractions as a whole-time occupation. For that reason many of the contributors to Radio Éireann are people with businesses or professions and the market has more or less been cornered by people who live in or near Dublin. I submit that the standard must necessarily be low because talented people throughout the country have not an opportunity of contributing to the programmes. If you have a station in Cork people from Minister would find it quite convenient to contribute from there. Cork is only a run of 1½ hours by car from Limerick, where there is some splendid talent. An alternative station in Cork would eliminate one difficulty facing the director of broadcasting when he has two equally attractive items at the same time. These could easily be broadcast from the two centres.

At the moment one of these items has to suffer, whereas if there were a second station both could be broadcast. For instance, if there were a big event in Cork and another in Dublin at the same time on the same day, both could be broadcast, with the alternative station established in Cork. Again, there are items on Radio Éireann which many people would regard as dull but nobody would dream or suggest that they should be done away with. It is largely because of that that Radio Éireann has got a bad name. With an alternative station you could have a light programme, say in Cork, and a heavy programme in Dublin, and I am sure that would go a long way towards pleasing all the people all the time.

As regards the present broadcasts, there are some naturally more attractive than others and the Minister might well adopt the B.B.C. device of recording good programmes and putting them over the air a second time. There are items such as "Round the Fire" and "Information Please", which are given regularly each week at a fixed hour. There are many people who would like to hear them, but they cannot because at the time of the broadcast they are otherwise engaged, and maybe so engaged week after week, whereas if we had a recorded version on a different night of some of the more popular programmes, it would go a long way towards solving another of the Minister's problems regarding radio generally.

Might I suggest to the Minister also, so far as the broadcasting of news in Irish is concerned, that when news is being broadcast in Irish, he should either have more time devoted to the broadcast or request the speakers to speak more slowly? In that way he would encourage more people to listen to these broadcasts and also to other items which are broadcast in Irish. There are so many dialects that people who have learned one dialect have a certain difficulty in understanding a speaker who is proficient in another dialect with which they are not familiar. As a means of solving that problem, I would suggest that these broadcasts should be made a little more slowly and distinctly. That would be one means of encouraging people to listen regularly to broadcasts in Irish.

I always regard the debate on this Estimate as one of the most important in which this House can indulge. I do think that some people do not fully realise the important part that wireless can play in all features of our national, social and economic life or how it can be made a medium for good or a medium for bad. Perhaps we have tended in the programmes which are broadcast here to lay too much emphasis on the needs of those who dwell in Dublin and other large cities. I am afraid this country has not yet got out of the habit of attending more to the needs and wants of urban dwellers as against the needs of those who live on farms and who form the majority of the population of the country, people who live in country districts, sometimes in very isolated parts of the country. Wireless is a very important adjunct in the homes of those who do not read the daily papers, who have no opportunity of going to see a film or to attend a theatre. It provides news and entertainment for these people. I do not think sufficient emphasis has been laid on the part that wireless plays in the lives of these people. We have heard a lot about the need of brightening rural life in order to keep people on the land, and I think there should be some readjustment of the official point of view regarding wireless in connection with that matter.

A large part of the debate has centred round the abandonment for the time being of the short-wave station. I want to say quite frankly that I am very sorry that the project for the short-wave station is not being proceeded with, but I understand there are financial and technical reasons against it. Even if there were only technical reasons, it might be possible to surmount them but I believe financial reasons are against it and, weighing the matter in the balance, I believe that the financial reasons should prevail. For that reason I am going to support the Government in that matter.

There is one matter to which I referred in the Dáil every year when I was here before, and that is the question of providing longer programmes. I cannot see why, when people pay a licence fee for the use of wireless, they should not be provided with a full session of entertainment and news. Other countries provide a complete programme and I do not see why this country should be an exception. I should like to see programmes which are not confined to certain periods of the day only. On the other hand, I should like to congratulate the wireless authorities on the very excellent performances which they do provide. Their plays are very good and I think they have cut a good deal of jazz and music of that kind and that they now concentrate more on folk music, Irish music and classical music. As I said, I think their plays are very good and, on the whole, balancing one station with another, I would as soon tune in to the Irish station as any other. There were many good Continental stations before the recent war but they have disappeared. I am very glad that our station orchestra has been strengthened. Its performances compare very favourably with those provided by any other country.

I understand that speeches are to be kept very brief but there is one other point to which I should like to refer and which I also touched upon in former years when I was a member of the Dáil. It has been referred to by two ex-Ministers this evening. That is the question of the use of wireless for propaganda. I think it comes very badly from these two ex-Ministers to raise that point. Although I may have changed my seat from the last occasion on which I sat in the Dáil, I have not altered my views in any respect on this matter. I gave expression to these views year after year, namely, that in wireless broadcasting we have in this country a very valuable medium to put a well-reasoned case on the air in regard to Partition. On each occasion on which I raised the matter, in so far as I could extract any answer from the then Government, whether it was from the Minister responsible for the wireless service or from Deputy de Valera who was then Taoiseach that answer was that there was no use in utilising wireless as a medium for propaganda. I do not agree with that at all and I am going to say what I said in Opposition, that I hope the Government will make use in so far as they can of our wireless service, not to engage in a campaign of vilification or anything of that kind, but in order to put forward a well-reasoned and well-balanced case which will reach the ears of reasonable men who can understand and appreciate the grievance under which this country is suffering at present.

As I say, it came very badly from the two ex-Ministers who have spoken to suggest that there was anything in the Government programme at present that was intended to interfere in any way with a solution of that problem. Whether it was by reason of the fact that they had a firm conviction on the point that it would be no use or because they had arrived at the point that they did not want to use it at all events, the last Government gave me the impression every time I raised the point—and I raised it deliberately every year; I have gone through the reports of the debates on the various Estimates in former years and checked up on them—that it would be no use trying to utilise the wireless for this purpose.

It would be interesting to get the quotations. I should like to hear them. However, we shall look it up.

I left my seat in the Dáil to get the quotation but I have not got it by me at the moment. I propose on the Vote for External Affairs or some other occasion to quote the exact words. Unfortunately it comes into the middle of Deputy de Valera's speech in answer to an interruption by myself, and it is rather hard to get it in the Volume. I have made a note of it, however, and I can assure Deputy de Valera that I would not make any reference to it if I were not sure it was correct.

I wish to speak on this subject of a short-wave broadcasting station. In conjunction with Deputy Little, I am asking the Dáil "to record its disapproval of the Government's decision to abandon the plans for the establishment of a short-wave broadcasting station." So far as the Dáil was aware, until to-day, the Government had taken a decision to abandon the short-wave broadcasting station. There were a number of statements to that effect made by Ministers. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has, however, to-day used a phrase which suggests that the decision has not been to abandon the station but to postpone its establishment. If that indicates a change of mind on the part of the Government, we welcome it, and I hope that what I have to say, and what has already been said from these benches, will expedite the process of conversion, and lead to a decision to proceed with the short-wave broadcasting station. It is possible, of course, that the announcement from the Clann na Poblachta Ard Fheis may have had more effect upon the Government's views on this matter than the opinions expressed from these benches, but if that is so it also is to be welcomed, because in this matter the Government have made a grave mistake, a mistake into which I believe they rushed without full examination, and they would deserve not gibes or criticism but congratulation if they had now the courage to admit their mistake and to rectify it.

It is to me inconceivable that there is any number of Deputies in this House, or any body of opinion in the country, which would not regard it as desirable that we should have here a wireless broadcasting station capable of being heard in whatever parts of the world our citizens and our friends have made their homes. On many occasions in past years, leaders of nationalist opinion in Ireland have been concerned with the difficulty of establishing and maintaining contact with our people and our friends throughout the world, and now that science has made available to us a most excellent means of establishing and maintaining these contacts, it is clearly desirable that we should use these means. It is impossible to conceive any Deputy standing up to argue that it is undesirable.

I want, however, to put the case for the establishment of the short-wave broadcasting station not solely on the basis that it is desirable that we should have it but that it is important—even necessary—that we should have it. There were many occasions in the past when it seemed to us to be of real importance to our national interest that our friends throughout the world, the individuals and the groups that might have been expected to help us in various difficulties, should have a channel of reliable information on Irish affairs. There were many occasions during the war, and some occasions before the war, when we felt that the national position was weakened and that the national interests were less secure because these friends of Ireland —these individuals and groups in other countries who might have been able to help us in various circumstances—had no means of getting information about this country—no means of getting information concerning the opinions and the aims of our people except through wireless broadcasting stations in other countries, operated by authorities in other countries, or through international Press agencies which, as we all know, were not always friendly, and very frequently were inaccurate in relation to Irish affairs.

The importance of having a short-wave broadcasting station was demonstrated to us who were in the Government during the war upon many occasions. It is the knowledge that we felt the lack of such a means of communication abroad very acutely during that period that convinces me that the Government took a decision concerning the short-wave broadcasting station without attempting to draw upon the fund of knowledge and experience which is to be found in the records of the various Government Departments. If they had had our experience, or if they had attempted to ascertain the nature of our experience from these records, it is impossible to imagine them taking that decision so quickly and announcing it in the form in which they did. There were occasions during the war when the dangers to this country—and it is futile now to ignore the fact that there were many occasions when we were in danger— were greatly increased by the fact that we had not got available to us direct access to opinion in other countries, and that we could not reach opinion in other countries except through channels which were not friendly to us, and that people abroad were frequently given a false picture of events here, and even a false idea of opinion here.

We did, in fact, on many occasions during the war wish that we had such a station. The decision to proceed with its erection immediately after the end of the war was taken some years ago. It is obviously foolish for us to ignore now the lessons of that experience, and foolish for us to refuse to provide the country with the facilities which that short-wave station would represent in the light of international circumstances as they are now developing.

There are, I think, very few people who can take regard of the state of the world at the present time and not feel that there is on the Government a direct obligation, as the custodians of the national interests and of the national purse, to examine the lessons of the last war, and to examine the deficiencies which increased our danger during that period and set out as quickly as possibly to remedy them, now that we have the chance. It is not merely in relation to this matter of a short-wave broadcasting station, but in a number of other matters, that the Government give the impression of proceeding without reference to anything that has happened. They are certainly allowing themselves to be influenced in relation to some of these matters unduly by what seems to be a prejudice against schemes initiated by their predecessors. It is impossible to imagine the people of this country electing a Government that would deliberately try to betray the national interests, but if ever such a Government were elected it would, in regard to some matters, pursue the policy which the present Government are following because of these unreasonable prejudices. It is not a time in which we can allow ourselves the luxury of prejudices where matters affecting national interests are concerned. Nobody can examine international conditions without seeing the dangers which existed from 1939 until 1945 reappearing some time in the future, if not precisely in the same form, at least in a form which would not be altogether dissimilar. In that situation, it is clearly desirable to give us now the things we should like to have had, the things that, it is our recorded opinion, would, if they then existed, have contributed to our safety in those difficult days.

What is the case for the abandonment of the station? Deputy Esmonde said that the reasons for the abandonment of the short-wave station were financial and technical. Let us examine precisely what are those financial and technical reasons. The financial reason, presumably, is a desire for economy. In fact, it was as an economy that the decision to abandon the short-wave station was first announced to the Dáil. The equipment for the station has been purchased at a cost roughly of £100,000. The greater part of it has been delivered and most of it is on the site for the station. Some has already been erected. As there is now a change of mind on the part of the Government and a withdrawal from the original position of abandoning the station in favour of merely postponing its establishment, presumably that equipment will not be sold, and some expense will be incurred in preventing it from deteriorating while it is lying round the site there at Athlone. If the economy of which we were asked to approve was the avoidance of capital expenditure, the answer is that the capital expenditure has already been incurred. While it might have been recovered by the sale of the equipment, it is doubtful if sale would be practicable and in any event I take it that the decision now is not to sell it. The equipment was of a most modern kind. We were assured by the Marconi Company that supplied it that it contained many features which were a considerable advance upon those embodied in similar short-wave broadcasting stations in other countries. If it is an economy, therefore, to abandon the station, it is not an economy on capital, but rather an avoidance of expenditure on the employment of musicians, artistes, technicians and workers.

I doubt very much if the total expenditure avoided can be very considerable in relation to the total expenditure of Government services, and in any event it was hardly the type of economy I would have expected many of the Deputies opposite to approve of. We have frequently in the past discussed here the problem of unemployment and its associated problem of emigration. It is a cliché to say that the solution of the problem of unemployment is to increase the opportunities of work in this country, but the solution of the problem of emigration goes much deeper. It is to provide, not merely an adequate number of jobs for our people but a variety of jobs, to give an opportunity to people who want to follow particular occupations which require a higher degree of skill and facility than other people have to remain in that type of work at home. It is at least as important as increasing the total number of jobs to increase the variety of jobs, particularly the types of employment which require the possession of a natural facility or skill of a high order. The general case for the short-wave broadcasting station, the development of air services, and many projects which the Government embarked on in the past, included the desirability of providing an increase in the variety of employments in Ireland available to our own people. It is unlikely that the Government will defend its decision to abandon the short-wave broadcasting station merely on the grounds that by doing so it will avoid employing a certain number of musicians, artistes and technicians, and yet it seems that that is the only real economy that the abandonment involves. I do not think that the attempt to represent to the Dáil that there is a case for the abandonment of the station on technical grounds is altogether straightforward.

It is true, I know, that no short-wave length has been allocated to this country, but it is extremely improbable in any circumstances that a short-wave length would be allocated until we had a short-wave broadcasting station. What is the position concerning the allocation of wave lengths? There is an international body voluntarily set up by governments to bring order into the whole business of broadcasting and to allocate wavelengths to various countries, so as to avoid their interference one with the other. We are a member of this international organisation. We joined it because we expected that it would act fairly and equitably as far as we were concerned. There was no reason to assume that it would not, and if it did not, the case for our membership in the organisation would be destroyed and the same would be true for the other countries in it. There is no reason to think that we will not get the facilities given to every other country, many of them smaller than ours, which have in recent years established short-wave broadcasting stations and which have got facilities in the matter of wavelengths. It is to be assumed that as soon as we have a short-wave station capable of operation the international organisation responsible for regulating the wavelengths will make the necessary arrangements to enable it to operate.

The Minister for Finance, of course, gave another reason for the abandonment of the short-wave station. He said that the decision to erect it was evidence of megalomania. I do not think that anybody—except the Minister for Finance—would consider it to be a proof of our madness that we decided to establish in this country the facilities which the peoples of other countries regard as normal development, something that comes as a matter of course. Is there any reason for saying that it is evidence of megalomania for us to have the same means of international communication here as exist in practically every other country in the world? It is unlikely, I think, that that particular point of view expressed by the Minister for Finance is shared by any substantial number of the Deputies who support the Government.

I am quite certain that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was never happy about this decision to abandon the short-wave broadcasting station and I am quite certain that the Party of which he is a member was never happy about it. It is, I think, possible that he may have been given a misleading picture of the case for the establishment of such a station by the officers to whom he went for advice who may have been less convinced than the previous Government of the necessity for it. It may have been a majority decision of the Cabinet; it may have been a decision taken by his colleagues at a time when they thought it was necessary for them to justify in a material way the announced intention of achieving economies and that that was the only consideration. Whatever the reason for it, I am quite sure that if the Minister exerts his influence and authority as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, as the channel through which the Government should be advised on this matter, the amended decision to postpone the establishment of the station can soon be further amended to a decision to proceed with it.

I welcomed the announcement of Clann na Poblachta that they also disapproved of the decision to abandon the short-wave broadcasting station. The announcement of their decision, whatever they are going to do about it, makes it clear that the majority of this House is in favour of proceeding with it. That being so, it makes less justifiable any attempt by the Government to stick its heels in the ground and to refuse to be budged by the force of opinion in this matter.

The motion asks the Dáil to express its disapproval of the decision to abandon the station. The rejection of that motion by the Dáil would, I think, mean that the attitude of the majority here and of our people would be misrepresented. It is, I know, not likely to be regarded or accepted as a vote of no confidence by the Government, and, on that account, Deputies who feel as I do that the Government made a mistake in this decision and that the sooner they reverse the decision the better, can freely vote for the motion, without risking upsetting the political balance which they wish to maintain. I am putting the case for the motion on that basis, that there are Deputies who will feel that, whatever temporary political reverse the Government would be regarded as having received or whatever victory the Opposition would be regarded as having gained it is of minor importance compared with the correction of this wrong decision by the Government. If the motion is passed, I assume that the Government will accept the view of the Dáil majority and proceed with the station. If it is rejected, they will regard it as confirmation of their present attitude. I hope, therefore, that it will be passed and that all Deputies opposite who feel with us that this wrong decision should be reversed will be induced to vote for it, or, at least, be persuaded not to vote against it.

No matter what one may think of Deputy Lemass or his political views, one will always concede that, as a debater, he is very plausible. I have conceded that on more than one occasion and I concede it again now. Never was Deputy Lemass more plausible than in his references to the short-wave station. I understand the position, and I understood the position all along, to be that the Government decided that, so far as this year was concerned, they were not going ahead with the establishment of the short-wave station. That was my understanding at the time this matter was first mentioned in the Budget debate. I have since gone to the trouble of checking the references made in the debate to this matter and, so far as they do anything, they confirm definitely that the decision was to postpone rather than to abandon.

I want to be quite honest with the House and to say that I do not altogether agree with the views expressed by Deputy Lemass or by Deputy Con Lehane to-day. Deputy Lemass put it to Deputies for their consideration that it was inconceivable that any Deputy or any volume of opinion in the country would believe that the establishment of this short-wave station was not desirable. So far as that statement is concerned, I will agree with him, but I want to put this view to Deputies: If the establishment of a short-wave station is desirable in 1948, it was also desirable in 1932. It took the Fianna Fáil Party 16 years to get around to this question of a short-wave radio station and 16 years to develop plans for it. If it is desirable now, it was desirable when they came into office. I will agree that the establishment of a short-wave station, if it can be afforded by the people, is desirable and is a worthy project. I do not believe that this year—and possibly not next year—this country can afford expenditure on a short-wave station or on many other items I have in mind and will not be permitted to mention in this debate.

Deputy Little spoke about a national concert hall and said that the objection to that—and I assume it came from his own colleagues, because that was the way he put it—always was that houses must come first. There was always something which must come first. The position at the moment is that, so far as some essential expenditure is concerned, the situation is desperate, and this Dáil would, to use another phrase of Deputy Lemass's, be betraying the national interest if it were to put housing or increased benefits for old age pensioners and subsistence pensioners in second or third place to short-wave radio stations or concert halls.

It does not have to do that, and the Deputy knows it.

I do not think there is any doubt about it. You cannot run up money all the time and there must be some sense of responsibility when the Government are dealing with the people's money. We can thank God, at any rate, that this Government does show a sense of responsibility, unlike Deputy de Valera's Government.

The words "national scandal" were used twice in this debate by speakers from the Fianna Fáil Benches. They were used by Deputy Lynch in relation to the short-wave station and by Deputy Little in connection with what he termed partisan broadcasts. I wonder if Deputies listened to what Deputy Little exactly said. We had the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs this evening assuring Deputies, and asking them to accept his word for it, that he had not, since he came into office, given any direction, good, bad or indifferent, to the Director of Broadcasting, or whoever is responsible for editing the news bulletins with regard to what items of a political nature they were to include or to exclude. But we had an admission, which I regard as rather startling, from Deputy Little that, when he was Minister, it was his policy and the policy of his Government to see to it that Fianna Fáil Ministers got a much better show in the news bulletins than any other Deputies. He said it was deliberate policy. That was the Fianna Fáil way of working. This Minister has departed from that policy and is leaving it to the person responsible for editing the news bulletins as to what will be included and what will not.

With regard to the Radio Éireann programmes, I believe that, if the programmes are analysed from a purely academic point of view, they will probably be graded as good or very good, but I am quite convinced, from my own personal experience, from talking to people who listen to Radio Éireann programmes, that these programmes are not catering for the people who listen to them. They are not giving the people what the people want to hear. I merely mention that because it is a matter about which there can, and should be, two opinions, as to whether we should give programmes which are cultural, educational and so on, but which people do not want to hear, or whether we should insist on catering for the tastes of those who listen and who have paid their licence fees, a problem which the Minister and his officials must work out in the course of the next 12 months.

I want to wish the Minister well in dealing with those problems, and to say that, so far as I am concerned, and so far as those who sit on these benches with me are concerned, we are very glad to see the Minister in the position of Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. We wish him every succcess in tackling the problems he will have to face.

We have listened to one of the lamest apologies this House has ever heard for the abandonment by the present Administration of the project to establish a short-wave station here. We are told, of course, that the project has not been abandoned; it has been merely postponed but, Deputy O'Higgins, having made inquiries, is satisfied that, so far as this year is concerned and perhaps next year, the Government are definitely not going ahead with the short-wave station. It reminds me of "this year, next year, sometime, never". That, I take it, is the real attitude of the section of the coalition which dominates the whole. So far as they are concerned they regard the proposal to establish a short-wave station as one that is undesirable in itself. Deputy O'Higgins almost went so far as to say that.

I said the direct opposite.

If I may say so, the O'Higgins family interest in the coalition is a very strong and very pronounced one. They muster at least, I suppose, three votes in the Party caucus.

It is quite irrelevant.

Except that——

It is irrelevant, no matter how the Deputy may explain it.

——it is significant that Deputy O'Higgins speaks, if I may say so, with a certain amount of support behind him and when he tells the House that, in his view, the establishment of a short-wave station is an undesirable and unnecessary project——

I said no such thing.

I know the Deputy damned it with faint praise.

I said the direct opposite to what the Deputy is quoting.

The Deputy made it quite clear, I think, that as far as he was concerned he did not give a hang whether it was established or not.

You can read me, if you cannot listen to what I say.

Any person looking at the international situation as we see it to-day must realise that we are running grave risks in postponing the establishment of this station, that it may be essential to the national safety and security in future that we should have some means of communicating with the outside world. Those of us who had the experience of going through the last war, who were aware of the extent to which the position of this country was misrepresented abroad all during that war, had borne in upon us very forcibly how essential it was that we should be able to communicate and make known our position in regard to any international situation that might arise to the world at large, but particularly to those who are of Irish origin or Irish descent or who are sympathetic to the people of this country and who happen to live abroad.

A situation may arise in Europe— and there is no person now can deny that the international situation is very threatening, that it is full of possible danger for the people of this country— when it may be, as I have said, essential for the national security and for the safety of all our people that we should be able to communicate with the outside world. That is the principal reason why I regard the decision by the Government not to proceed with the erection of this station as a dangerous decision, as a decision which is not justified by the circumstances of the time and a decision which has been taken, not with a view to making any significant economy, but merely because of the fact that this was a project which had been initiated by Fianna Fáil. Because it was a project of that kind, that was sufficient to damn it in the eyes of the present Administration.

I say that because there has been no real economy secured by the abandonment of this station. The capital expenditure required had already been incurred. Plant and equipment were here. All that was necessary was to provide the labour necessary to complete the execution of the scheme. The greater part of that labour would have been provided by Irishmen. God knows, we have enough unemployment in the country to-day to make it desirable that any project which is in the national interest should be proceeded with without delay. In so far as the programmes were concerned, expenditure upon them was not going to be by any manner of means considerable, having regard to the amount of money which was already being provided for Radio Éireann programmes.

The revenue from wireless licences and other sources would have been more than sufficient to have covered the additional expenditure on programmes and running expenses which the short-wave station would have necessitated. My colleague, Deputy Little, the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, says: "not quite". I say that we could budget upon an increased revenue from wireless licences this year which would have fully covered any additional expenditure which the operation of a short-wave station would have involved.

In the light of these facts, bearing in mind what I have already said in regard to the international situation, bearing in mind the need of this little country to maintain whatever ties and affiliations it may have with the sons and daughters of this race abroad, surely it would have been worth while spending £10,000 or £20,000 in order to keep them in touch with affairs at home. If you like, the association need only be a cultural one. We could not make it a definite political one but, if they were able to listen to our programmes, our songs, our plays, to listen, if you like, even to our news bulletins, partisan and all as they have proved to be over the last three or four months, would not it at least have enabled them to realise that they too had ties and links with Ireland, a realisation which would be very valuable to us and almost essential to our safety in the world of the future.

Again let me repeat, merely, I think, because the credit of the Fianna Fáil Party was in some way intertwined with this proposal to establish a short-wave station, the Government have decided to abandon it. The plant and equipment, remember, were already on the site. The works were in course of erection. The completion of them would have given a great deal of muchneeded employment to Irish people. The programmes were going to impose no undue expense upon the State. Yet that whole project is abandoned, and abandoned in this year of 1948, when the cloud of war is hanging heavy over the whole of Europe and when we, if that war should come, may find ourselves in the very centre of it. Is there any justification from the point of view of the national interest for the policy which the Government has pursued?

In the course of his speech defending this indefensible policy of the Government, Deputy O'Higgins said that if this were desirable in 1948, it was also desirable in 1932. In so far as the desirability of the short-wave station is concerned, I agree with Deputy O'Higgins. Of course, it would have been very useful to us in 1932, when we had opened the Constitutional battle and the Bill for the removal of the Oath was here before Dáil Éireann. It would have been very useful to us to have been able to make our people in Great Britain and Australia and America aware of what was being done here by us at that time. We could have done that, if we had a short-wave station at our disposal. It would have been very useful to us during the whole course of the economic war, or during 1937, when we were discussing the present Constitution of this independent State here in Dáil Éireann. The point, however, is that, while it might have been useful then, it might not have been practicable.

As everyone knows, the problems associated with satisfactory short-wave transmission over long distances had not then been solved. It was only about 1937 or 1938 that one could say with a certain amount of assurance that the expenditure on a short-wave station would have been justified from the point of view of efficiency of the transmissions. As soon as it was a practical proposition, the Government, having given consideration to it, adopted it in principle; and we were pushing forward with plans to establish the station when the war broke out in 1939. The experience we underwent during that war convinced us beyond yea or nay that it was essential in the national interest that we should equip ourselves with this means of communication with the outside world.

I want now to refer to the answer which the Minister gave to the question put down by my colleague, Deputy Little, in regard to the partisan way in which news of vital interest to the community is being presented by Radio Éireann. Those of us who listened to the speech of the former Minister for Agriculture in the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, know that it was a speech which covered the whole field of agricultural effort in this country; a speech which, from the point of view of the practical farmer and the scientific farmer, was a masterpiece; a speech which beyond doubt impressed the intelligent members of the Government Party, and which must have convinced many of them that the policy being pursued by the present Minister for Agriculture was detrimental to the national interest. The most striking proof of the effectiveness of that speech was that it was very cursorily reported in the Government Press and was suppressed altogether in the Government news broadcast.

Whereas a resumé of the speech of the present Minister for Agriculture was given at some length in Friday evening's broadcast—and I do not complain of that, as I think it is essential that the country should be made well aware of the policy of the present Minister for Agriculture—the cogent and searching criticism of that speech and of that policy, which was made by his immediate predecessor, the former Minister for Agriculture, was completely suppressed. The people were not allowed to hear what he said. Though Deputy Smith spoke early on Friday, and early again when the debate was resumed on Tuesday, he appears to have spoken too late for any single word of his to have been included in the news broadcast at 10.10 on Friday evening and at 10.10 on Tuesday evening.

I do not know how that happened, unless the telephone service, or the telegraph service, or even the messenger service, under the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has become hopelessly inefficient; or, as we contend, the national broadcasting service, which is the property of the whole people and to support which those who own wireless licences are compelled to subscribe, irrespective of Party, is being used here to bolster up the present Administration in a shame-lessly partisan way. It must be either hopeless inefficiency on the part of the Department under its present Minister, or else shameless partisanship on the part of those who control news broadcasts. I do not believe that the Department has become hopelessly inefficient. I have had personal experience of many of the higher officers in executive positions in control of the service and I am sure they are as efficient and as able as can be found in this State. Therefore, the explanation for this very curious omission to give even one single sentence from the speech of the former Minister for Agriculture can only be ascribed to deliberate partisanship on the part of some person.

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, in his reply to Deputy Little to-day, said:—

"I am satisfied that the news officials perform their difficult task without any bias and so long as that is the case I do not think it right that I should interfere with their independence of action by holding investigations into what the exigencies of their work require them to include in, or exclude from, individual bulletins."

That reminds me of the performance of Pilate on a certain historic occasion. The Minister is responsible for his officers. He holds a responsibility to this House, he surely has a duty to all the people of this country, to ensure that the news broadcasts from Radio Éireann will be impartial, that they will give both sides of the case. How can anyone argue that a news broadcast was impartial or gave both sides of the case, when the statement of the present Minister for Agriculture was broadcast at some length and the speech of his immediate predecessor was totally suppressed? I think that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, if he will look facts in the face, if he will be candid with himself, must admit that the broadcast of the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture was definitely biased, was definitely partisan and failed to give the country a fair resumé of what was said in the debate.

The Minister has stated that he does not interfere with the broadcasts. Perhaps he feels that it is not necessary for him to interfere with the broadcasts, because he knows what the nature of the broadcasts is going to be. It is not usual in this House to comment upon the activities of officials of the Department. But it is well known that there is a certain Party partisan journal published monthly in this country which has been consistently anti-Fianna Fáil.

How does that arise in this Estimate?

It does arise.

I am going to show you.

The Deputy will have to show me how.

I must be allowed——

How does the issue of a journal by somebody arise on this debate?

If the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will bear with me I will show him. I must first of all state the facts. There is in this country a journal which is definitely partisan and definitely political in its outlook and it has been, if you like, a poisonous propagandist against the Fianna Fáil Government and Party. Now here is the relevance. The editor and principal owner of that journal happens to be the assistant-director of broadcasting.

This is a very tender matter. One thing which the Chair has always been very careful about is that no attack will be made in this House on a civil servant. The justification for that is perfectly clear. If an attack is made on anybody here, he or she is in a position to defend himself or herself, as the case may be. But the Deputy should be very careful, and should not make a charge against anybody who is not in a position to defend himself here and who has no redress for any statement made in this House.

The initials C. E. K. have appeared very frequently in a certain publication.

I cannot allow that to proceed any further. The Deputy is clearly making a charge against an official. That is against the precedent of this House.

I am making a charge against the Minister.

The Deputy is not. He is making a charge against an official who has no redress.

I am making a charge against the Minister who is responsible for the official.

Why not proceed then specifically to make the charge against the Minister?

If the Minister permits an official to do a certain thing, then it is the Minister who is responsible.

Then the Deputy should make the charge against the Minister.

I assume that the Minister is responsible for all the activities of his officers in so far as those activities are proper or improper. If those activities are improper according to the standards which have been laid down in relation to the Civil Service and the Minister permits them, the Minister is responsible to this House. I am not attacking the officer. I am attacking the Minister. I am criticising the Minister for allowing one of his senior officers to behave in the way I have stated.

Perhaps the Deputy will state what the journal is.

A regulation was issued by, I think, the second Minister for Finance in the Cumann na nGaedheal Government that civil servants were not to identify themselves with political points of view in a way which would enable them to be recognised as civil servants. The head of every Department is responsible for ensuring that the regulation laid down by the then Minister for Finance for the general governance of the Civil Service is strictly enforced. I am saying that that rule has been violated, and I am charging the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs with permitting it to be violated. If a civil servant breaks a Civil Service regulation and is permitted to do so, then the person answerable to this House for that state of affairs is the Minister. That is the position in which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is now—that he is permitting this rule to be broken and that he is permitting it to be broken deliberately because he knows that, in so far as the official activities of this particular civil servant are concerned, those which come immediately and directly under the Minister, he is going to discharge his duties in relation to them in a way which will be consistent with the other activities which he pursues outside the service.

The Deputy is endeavouring to make an attack on a particular civil servant. He must either proceed to direct his remarks to the Minister or discontinue his speech.

I have said enough to indicate that the reply which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs gave to Deputy Little's question to-day is an evasive one, is an ingenious one and is one which will not stand examination.

Will the Deputy say what the journal is?

Deputy Cowan can advertise that journal if he likes. I am not going to advertise it.

Is it Dublin Opinion?

I would not be allowed to mention it. It would be quite improper for me to mention it. Its only relevance in this debate is to bring home the fact that certain people can do things and get away with them under the present Minister. As I have said, the broadcasting service in this country is maintained by fees collected from all sections of the population. In so far as that service purports to broadcast news, it is bound, in discharge of its responsibilities to the people, to broadcast that news without bias and, whenever there is a subject under discussion in the Dáil, to give both sides of the case without fear or favour. That is the position which we took up when in office and that is the position which we honourably and consistently maintained.

Early this year and during the election campaign a number of members of the then Opposition Parties advocated that all Parties should have the right to use the radio for the purpose of putting their point of view before the electorate. I was one of those who advocated that policy at that time. Immediately after the formation of the present Government I asked the present Minister for Posts and Telegraphs if he would proceed to allow all Parties in this State the right to broadcast. The Minister replied that he was favourably considering that proposition. That service has not been availed of by all Parties in the State mainly because the then Opposition Party refused point blank to obey. I cannot understand why the chief Opposition Party turned down that proposition. I think it is desirable in the national interest that all Parties should have the right to state their case over the radio and thus inform the people of their viewpoints. The main advantage of such a service goes to the Opposition Party. Ministers have, by reason of their office, quite frequent opportunities to express their views on the air. The Opposition Party, however, could have derived some advantage from this service but they did not choose to avail of it. The only reason I can think of is that they felt they had no reasonable case to put before the public or else that they feared that Deputy MacEntee might go on the air. I am one of those who believe in justice and fair play for all Parties and particularly in regard to a national service such as this. That is why I have frequently suggested in debates on this Estimate that there should be established a national advisory council to advise the Minister in regard to the broadcasting service.

I should like to say that in my opinion Deputies of this House are the worst possible judges as to what a broadcasting programme should be. I do not think there is any section of the community which has as little opportunity for listening to the radio as Deputies. As we know, the radio is part of the equipment of the home but I think it will be agreed that Deputies have very little home life and for that reason they have very little opportunity of listening to the programmes. A carefully selected and representative advisory council would, I think, be able to give the Minister very useful advice on how the programmes should be shaped. It is something which ought to be established in the near future. Nearly every Government Department and nearly every Minister at the present time is setting up an advisory council. There is no Department that requires such a council more urgently than the Department in charge of broadcasting.

I am altogether in favour of a second programme. I think it is absolutely impossible to crowd into one programme all the features that will appeal to every section of the community. Another improvement which, I think, is long overdue is the more extensive use of the radio in schools and colleges. There are certain types of broadcasts which are very desirable for pupils in our national schools and our secondary schools. I refer particularly to the subject of civics. This is one form of instruction which could be given very well over the radio. There are, no doubt, many other branches of education in which a very good broadcaster could assist and supplement the work of our teachers in the national and in the secondary schools. Therefore, every week at least one half-hour should be devoted to the primary schools and one half-hour to the secondary schools. It would be, in addition, a very useful addition to our programme. It is, too, very desirable to improve the standard of our agricultural broadcasts.

There is a feeling amongst those in authority in various Government Departments that anything is good enough for the farmer. Deputy Little more or less revealed that mentality in one respect when he said that even the farmers had a sense of culture and could enjoy and take advantage of a cultural programme.

I did not say "even".

The Deputy certainly did refer to the farmers who were capable of taking advantage of culture.

Do not quote me out of my context.

I do not think farmers would take that—whatever words the Deputy used—as being very complimentary. There is the idea that you can lay down a certain form of stereotyped instruction on how to feed pigs and cows and so forth and that the farmer will listen in and believe it. I do not think that kind of programme is any use whatever from the agricultural point of view. What we want on the air for the improvement and education of those engaged in the agricultural industry is a discussion between intelligent people who are competent to argue the various viewpoints in regard to agricultural policy and practice. That, in the main, is what people like to hear. The ordinary man, if he is listening to a broadcast talk, likes to hear a battle of wits between two able people who can debate opposing viewpoints. By having discussions on contentious matters as well as on agricultural matters—and some agricultural matters can be very contentious—our programmes would be brightened considerably and they would at the same time have an educational value.

With regard to the short-wave radio station, I am entirely in agreement with those who have pointed out the desirability of postponing, at least for a time, that development until we have definitely settled in our minds what we are going to put on the air. If we are going to broadcast to our people in foreign countries it is most desirable that our programmes should be very carefully considered. I would ask the Minister not to broadcast to other countries and not to put this short-wave station into operation until we have functioning in this country a national advisory council such as I have suggested, and until that council has hammered out a good programme which will impress the people abroad and raise our prestige.

There is just one matter in connection with broadcasting to which I would like to refer. It was the custom of Radio Éireann formerly to hold symphony concerts in the various halls around the city. Under the new system the concerts are being held in the Phoenix Hall. The public can still go to these concerts but the method of obtaining tickets has been changed. The public have now to write in and ask for the tickets. No person can be quite sure as to whether he or she will be able to get admission and the matter requires a certain amount of planning in advance. I would appeal to the Minister that some of these concerts should be held as heretofore in the big public halls.

I am aware that the Phoenix Hall is of inestimable benefit to students of music and that such students have free admission there. That is a good thing in itself and I would be sorry to interfere with any benefits which the students may derive from this method. But there is a wider public which ought to be encouraged and a public that we would like to see regularly attending these concerts. In order to facilitate such public the public halls are the best method. I draw the Minister's attention to that aspect in so far as the change of venue is concerned.

Might I say that agreement has been reached as regards the hours for the remainder of the business. According to the schedule before me, I shall have to call on the Minister to conclude at 9.30. With regard to the Votes yet to come it is agreed that time be allocated on a half and half basis. The Chair will have to make sure of that. In that would be included, of course, the Ministerial opening and concluding speech in the half allotted to the Government side and the Chair will, therefore, have to see that time is allotted roughly half and half. At 9.30 I shall call upon the Minister to conclude on broadcasting.

Or earlier, if the opportunity occurs.

Or earlier, of course; that would leave more time for some other Vote.

Is there any arrangement with regard to the time for these other Votes?

I shall give that information to-morrow. I do not want to take up more time than I can help now. The House will be informed of the hours in the morning.

Mr. de Valera

My original intention was to reserve what I have to say on the short-wave broadcasting station to the Vote for External Affairs. It occurred to me, however, that the Chair might possibly rule me out of order if I attempted to do that once this discussion was over. I think it is better, therefore, that I should speak now. Before I come to deal with the short-wave station and its abandonment I should, perhaps, say a word or two about broadcasting in general. I think everybody will admit that the cinema and the wireless have come to stay. Some may regret the evils that are brought through such media but we must all reckon with the fact that they are there and it is our business to make the best possible use we can of them. There is no doubt that the cinema and broadcasting can be of great value from the educational point of view. The radio can also be used from the point of view of entertainment. It is at times a nice problem to try to achieve a balance and see that entertainment—which, provided it is of the right sort, is a good thing in itself —does not usurp the educational side. The difficulty is to ensure that entertainment and education are properly adjusted. I take it it has always been a problem to achieve that balance in broadcasting. It is quite true that one cannot please everybody. No matter what decision is taken it must, in the long run, be a purely arbitrary one. Some person, some group, some council will have to decide what is best. I take it that that has been the practice in the past.

The Minister, or the director, or the advisory council take decisions; they discuss matters first of all and then the Minister, having heard what they have to say, takes the final decision. Can one improve upon that? I do not think one can as a system. All one can do is to try to get the best qualified person as Minister and the best qualified group as an advisory council and let them decide. There will be objections to any decision that they may arrive at. All one can do is to hope that in the long run and on balance they will decide wisely. My own view is that two programmes would be desirable. There are two tastes for which one must cater. For those who want entertainment primarily entertainment must be provided. For those who want education, programmes must be devised on a cultural basis. If there were two stations there could be two programmes catering for entertainment and education simultaneously. In that way, it would be easier to achieve more general satisfaction. If one is tired and wants recreation, then one can turn on the entertainment programme. If, on the other hand, I am interested in some particular subject which, it has been announced, will be treated on the cultural side, I can turn on to that and listen in. Therefore, the only thing we can do about it at the moment is to urge the Minister and his wise advisers to try to have the two programmes put into operation.

It means more money, of course—at least, I expect it does. When you come to this question of money in regard to any public service you have, of course, a difficulty. Money can be got only in one way, and that is by way of taxation—that is, for the ordinary services. We are not a very wealthy community and we must of necessity pay attention to the financial side. The only thing we have to remember in that regard is that money can be very well spent and that to take a narrow view of finance and cut out everything because it means expenditure is the worst possible type of economy. On all occasions you must ask yourself is the money going to be spent properly. There is, of course, the anterior question: can we get the money—is it available? Assuming it is available in one form or another, the question to be asked in all cases like that is: is the expenditure worth while—is the money that is to be spent going to justify the burden that will be placed on the community by spending it?

We have been talking about education and there is a good deal of money being spent on it. Is anybody going to say that, because the money that has to be spent on education will be a burden on our people, we ought to cut down in the matter of education? If there is a question of national defence or some other national service, surely we ought to consider very carefully before we deprive the country of a service which in other countries is regarded as essential?

That is precisely what we propose to do here in the case of the short-wave station. We propose to reverse a decision that was adopted after very careful thought, adopted for no other reason but to serve the national interest. Surely it is very unwise of us in this Chamber to reverse that decision without the most careful consideration? There is undoubtedly a reversal of a decision here.

Why was the decision taken in the first instance? The decision was taken as a result of experience. You have been told already by Deputy Lemass how sorely we who formed the Government during the war period felt the loss of a short-wave station that would enable us to reach outside countries. Our country was being maligned every day; we had "German submarines sheltering in our harbours"; we had, according to these reports, not merely that—that was the report, of course— but we also had "huge establishments here in the German and Japanese diplomatic missions". Everything that could be said by way of bitter propaganda to malign us was said and we had no means whatever of replying to it. There was no use in hoping that any interview which might be given contradicting this would get outside and the result was that friends of ours, friends of freedom, friends of small nations throughout the world, were being poisoned against this nation by that foul propaganda.

We were so affected by it that at one period we asked the body we set up to help us scientifically to boost up the existing station so that we could reach outside countries. A considerable period of time and some money were spent in an effort to boost up the existing station. We were determined at that time, because of our experience and for no other reason, that it would be in the national interest, and well worth the money spent on it, to acquire at the first possible opportunity installations which would enable us to reach the outside world. We had difficulty in getting them; we had to wait for a considerable time, and now it is proposed, when they have been got, that these things should either be scrapped or sold.

I cannot understand the attitude of the Government in coming to that decision. The point is that when a crisis is on it is then you want a short-wave station, and these crises can happen very rapidly. Even if you do not have a wavelength alloted to you, and even if you do not have what the last Deputy has suggested, a council or some other body to control the radio, surely you should have some means at your disposal to transmit to the outside world? I think the Government, on reconsideration, cannot continue with that decision to postpone this matter for the coming financial year. As has been mentioned already in the House, the outlook in the world to-day is not of such a kind that we can imagine we are completely out of the wood and that we can approach all our national and economic problems here as if we were facing a period of peace. We may very well be facing a period of war, and then it will be too late for you, much too late for you, to get the necessary equipment to set up your station.

I appeal to the Government to reconsider this matter and not let the narrow financial point of view which, in my opinion, is the dominant one here, get predominance. I have said already, and I think I could prove it by going into the past, that there have been many decisions taken by Finance that have proved, in the sequel, to be very bad financially for the country. Many things were postponed or not done because of the expense factor, and in the course of a year or two it was found that these things had to be done at three or four times the expense. Let us not have that again. As I understand it, we have got the greater part of the equipment ready. At least we ought to put it in working order, and if we have to wait some time to get a satisfactory wavelength allotted to us it will be good insurance meanwhile to have the equipment there. As was pointed out by some Deputies, at a time of crisis there is no observance of any wavelength; you try to get on the air in the best position you can so that your views may be heard. That is a most important and urgent consideration, a consideration that makes it quite wrong to postpone the establishment of this station.

There are many other arguments that I could adduce to suggest that we should go on with it. I admit they have been already referred to, but it might be no harm if I were to repeat them. We are not an isolated nation here, in the sense that those who are interested in our welfare are far more widely flung than within the confines of this island. We have, in our struggles in the past, been supported by the goodwill of people of our race all over the world. These people are good citizens of the countries in which they dwell. Nobody can point a finger at them but they have an affection for the land from which they themselves and their forebears sprung. Because of that, it is desirable that we should keep in touch with them. We can do that best through a short-wave station. It is only those who have been away from this country for any length of time who realise the importance of that contact. Newspapers in other countries, if they carry any information at all about this country, it will be, you may be sure, information in the main that is to our detriment. It is about something sensational that has happened in this country and the unfortunate thing is that those who get only the sensational are inclined to think that the sensational is the normal, as it is the only information that they get. They get some wrong impressions of this country just as we might, for instance, get a wrong impression of a city like Chicago from the way in which certain happenings in that city were depicted here.

Apart from the accidental circumstance, due to the nature of news, that it is only sensational things as a rule that are sent abroad, there is the fact that in the past there has been deliberate propaganda against our country. It was one of the means by which the Power that held this country in the past tried to justify its hold on it. For that reason we are in a worse position than most people would be. Surely, then, it is to our interest to keep in touch with our people abroad who, we can believe, will be, of all others, the most understanding and sympathetic to our cause. We will have a good case in our fight for liberty. We had a good case in fighting for the amount of liberty we have got and we will have an equally good case in fighting for the rest of it. Surely that is a reason why we should see that our contacts with our people abroad should not be cut. These contacts in the past were largely maintained by the fact that new people were going every year from this country into these other countries. They were able to supply our exiles abroad with up-to-date information as to feeling at home, but that channel of information is rapidly drying up. There are not so many of our people nowadays going to these countries which were most sympathetic to us in the past and for that reason you are not going to have the same freshening of contacts as you had in the past. Again, that emphasises the need of having some substitute.

I know of no substitute except one which will reflect life in this country as it is, and enable our people to keep in contact with our culture. Our people abroad like to have the same sort of entertainments as we have here. They have their céilidhthe, their Irish songs and their Irish dances. They are interested in all these things because of their roots in this country. I happened to be abroad when it was announced that the project for this broadcasting station was to be abandoned and I may tell you that there was a sense of despair amongst these people because they had been looking forward to it as a means of renewing their contacts with the motherland. They had, as I say, looked forward to it and now they find that the hopes that they had cherished are all to be destroyed. Again, I appeal to the Government to reconsider this decision and to realise that they should not postpone the setting up of this station for one day, not to speak of one year.

The question of the use of radio to deal with Partition has been raised. Deputy Esmonde reminded me of a remark I made in interruption here on one occasion on that subject. If he will look back on it, he will find that the interruption was made in a debate on an Emergency Powers Bill here in 1940. I do not know if the matter was ever raised since. My anxiety at that particular time, above all others, was to see that this country was not going to get involved in the war. It was not an easy task. This Government, if it has to deal with a situation like that in future, will probably realise how difficult that task was and can be.

I had to ask myself whether at that particular time the use of the radio here, such as we had at our disposal, could be wisely allowed for that purpose. I felt it would be a hopeless instrument for that purpose because the moment we started, you might as well have an old blunderbuss challenging a machine-gun. There was no point in starting a contest of that sort at that particular time. The whole world was poisoned against you, even if you could get it out but we had no other means at our disposal. The Deputy has given me the quotation and I have seen it. I asked him at that time—it was a most extraordinary situation in which it was brought in—how it could be shown that it could bring Partition to an end. He could only answer that it would help. Later on he explained that his idea was that every time Britain explained what her war aims were, we could belch—I think that was the word used or some other word like it—our statements with regard to the Six-County position and so on. I do not think that it would have helped us at that particular time to do that. But I did not say at any time, as far as I know—if I did I cannot understand it because it would not have represented my thought—that a proper radio system could not be used. I used it myself, such as it was, when I got a chance to speak to the United States of America.

The suggestion has been made that I have only begun to talk about Partition now. There is not a word of truth in that. I could give day and date, even during the war, when I spoke about it, even in public utterances, and, mind you, during the war there was not very much use in talking about Partition outside the country. Here at home, nobody needs to talk about it. As far as this part of Ireland is concerned, I take it that 90 per cent. of our people would vote for the abolition of Partition if they were given a chance. If Partition were put to a plebiscite, the people, as far as this part of the country is concerned, I have not the slightest doubt would vote for its abolition by a huge majority. Probably they are more unanimous on that than on any other single question that could be put to them, so that there was no object in speaking to our own people about Partition. What we have got to do is to get a proper public understanding abroad of the situation and a proper understanding of it in the Six Counties themselves. There is not a single Party in this part of the country that would stand for a continuation of Partition. There is no doubt where our people stand on that matter. What is the point then in using the radio if you have to deal only with our own people here at home? Some people might say that you could use it for Britain. As I said before, in regard to that you were going to use it in the worst possible conditions. I am not against it. I say that the time has come when every effort must be made and that it is a good time to make it. I certainly will not now, any more than I did when I was on the other side of the House, find fault with anybody who comes forward and puts a case against Partition before the world. I think that every good Irishman will welcome the putting of that case.

I believe that if you are being attacked you certainly have got to defend yourself to the best of your ability. I do not listen very often to the radio. Unfortunately, I have not got the time very often, but I am told that a campaign has been started elsewhere. We must answer that campaign. There is one thing as regards Partition at the present time and it is that a myth has been established, and we have go to explode that myth and to make it clear to the world what really is the case as far as the Six Counties are concerned. An attempt has been made to try and create the impression abroad that we have here two nations occupying two separate territories, and that, therefore, there is a justification for separating them. Of course, everybody knows that is not true. There is the suggestion that you have a homogeneous population in the Six Counties. Everybody knows that is not true.

The Chair stopped two Deputies to-day from dealing with Partition.

Mr. de Valera

I am sorry. I did not know that I was transgressing.

References were made to it, but it was ruled that it could not be discussed per se.

Mr. de Valera

I certainly do not wish to transgress the rules of order. Coming back to the radio, it may be necessary to use it if other people, by means of their broadcasting system, have been spreading wrong information. If other people have been doing that, it may be necessary for us to use it in order that people may get the truth. From the point of view then of the immediate situation and from the point of view of cultural contacts and of the people who are our friends abroad and who have an affection for this country, the decision, in my opinion, to abandon the short-wave broadcasting station is bad, and I would ask the Government not to be guilty of what is, in my opinion, national madness in this particular matter. If it is simply a postponement, why should they not ask themselves the question: "Why should we even postpone it with the condition of the world as it is to-day?" I cannot do more than repeat what, I think, Deputy Lemass has said, that from the speeches that have been made in this House it must be obvious to the Government from what has been said by everybody who has spoken that the concensus of opinion is that this short-wave broadcasting station should be established with all possible speed. To those who while arguing for it and its desirability have finally said: "Very well, we have to depend on the Minister for Finance," I would simply say: ask the Minister for Finance and those people to consider that it has been proved time after time that some of these decisions, taken on the basis of a narrow financial interest, have been, in the long run, even financially unsound, and that in the long run, where a case could be made for them, they are not good national policy. For these reasons I would ask the Government again to reconsider its decision.

I think I should say a few words on this subject. The discussion on the Estimate has mainly centred round the short-wave radio station. I should like to make it perfectly clear that, in my opinion, in view of conditions as they are at the moment, it is necessary that a short-wave radio station should be established. I was pleased to hear to-day from the Minister that the decision of the Government has not been a decision to abandon but a decision to postpone. If there has been reconsideration of that aspect of the question, I want to join in the appeals that have been made to the Government to reconsider this matter at once and to go ahead with the completion of this short-wave radio station. Now, not only am I supported by the observations that have been made in this House to-day, but I feel that I am strongly supported by the expressions of opinion that were given at the Ard-Fheis of Clann na Poblachta when I was a member. These expressions were clear, specific and definite that it was wrong to think of abandoning this short-wave radio station.

If this motion is pressed to a division, I want to make it clear that I will vote for the motion as a specific and clear indication to the Government of my views that this short-wave radio project should be proceeded with as soon as possible. I was very pleased to hear Deputy Lemass say that a decision unfavourable to the Government on this motion would not be considered as a vote of no confidence in the Government. I think that makes it simple and easy for Deputies like myself who believe that, in the general national interest, it is necessary that this present Government should be maintained in office for a considerable period.

On the general subject of the radio, I want to express a personal point of view. I have been surprised for some considerable time to see that the radio is being used for the propagation of gambling. I think that the radio has many useful purposes to serve but I do not think it is right that a portion of the time should be devoted each night to advising the people of this country what horses they ought to back the following morning. I think it is wrong. I have no objection in the world to people gambling, but I have a definite objection to the radio being used in this way. If that is not encouragement of gambling I do not know what is. It is my viewpoint for what it is worth and I take this opportunity of expressing it in the House.

I did not speak on the other Estimates introduced by the Minister and I would like to take this opportunity of saying that my experience, since the present Minister became Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, has been that there has been no more courteous or no more approachable Minister and I join with the other Deputies who wish the Minister success in his period of office.

There has been quite a deal of talk in connection with the short-wave station. I do not think that anybody in the House can deny that the appeals made to the Government for the immediate putting into operation of this short-wave station could be classed as anything other than sincere and, in the opinions of those who made them, in the best interests of the nation. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to the Estimate which was prepared before the present Government came into office. If you go through this year's Estimate carefully, you will find that the total amount required to put into operation the short-wave station is £5,790. I have gone through the Estimates. Licences bring in £122,000 and advertisements £66,000, bringing the total to £188,000. The cost of salaries, wages and allowances is £101,970; the cost of programmes £59,850; musical instruments, etc., £3,200—I am reading what is in the Estimate—travelling expenses, £6,500; light, power, etc., £12,095; plant and equipment £60,890; miscellaneous items £1,045, and for the maintenance of a short-wave station, £5,790. So, surely to goodness, it cannot be argued that withholding progress to complete the short-wave station can be based on economies. In early references to the short-wave station it was classed together with the transatlantic air services; megalomania was going to be brought into check and the air services, Aerlinte, were to be stopped as well as the short-wave station. It was doubtless in the minds of people abroad and of Deputies in the House that the intention was to abandon the station. That is clear from what Deputy Cowan said of the discussion about it at the Clann na Poblachta Árd-Fheis. It is now suggested that it is not intended to abandon the station in the sense of closing it down, but of putting the operation of it into abeyance. In view of the almost negligible saving which accrues even to the Department, let alone to the State, the expenditure is no excuse for not going on with this scheme.

The debate has entered into two subjects, programmes and the short-wave station. Deputies have suggested that we should have a second programme from the Cork station, but they have overlooked the fact that we have an international agreement limiting the power we can use and this prevents us from putting on programmes from Cork that reach the whole nation.

Deputy Little mentioned the concert hall, pointing out that he had made arrangements for the erection of a concert hall. This would be all to the good here in the City of Dublin and very necessary if we were living in normal times. He had only a sketch plan of that concert hall, however, and it came into the Estimate of another Department. It was estimated to cost £500,000 and that matter was deferred. If we are to go in for building schemes, our first duty should be to provide sanatoria for the poor patients in the country who are in need of them, and houses for those who have no accommodation and not go in for luxury hotels or fancy building such as cinemas or halls. An earnest effort should first be made to break the back of the problem of providing buildings which are urgently needed. I am sure Deputy Little will agree.

Even supposing the Minister decides not to build a hall, why not acquire a site?

There are several sites.

It is the best site in Dublin, the most historic site in Dublin.

That will not take any material.

Deputies have spoken in connection with civil servants. It is regrettable that charges can be made, and made freely, in this House against civil servants who are not in a position to defend themselves. Those civil servants were appointed by the previous Government and I never interfered with one of them. I took them over knowing that they were civil servants who had not been appointed through political influence but merely as capable and efficient officers ready and willing to give good and loyal service. What is the charge against them? If it is the person that I have in mind, surely to God we have not become less humorous than our ancestors. Is it because we come as Deputies to this House that articles cannot be written criticising us and that we can say that civil servants are acting contrary to what is fair play? I told the person I have in mind that I was not concerned if he put the whole Government in kilts, provided that he worked well in my Department and gave satisfactory service. I do not want to take his freedom from any individual and it was the policy of the Government coming in to give fair play to all sections of the community. There is no specific charge made against that individual—I am only assuming that what he put in Dublin Opinion has been criticised so much to-night.

Deputy Collins and others put a number of other points that it would be impossible to deal with seriatim, so I will take that bone of contention, the short-wave station. I heard Deputy Aiken—and I am surprised at him— making a case for the necessity of it this year. I am not against the short-wave station. I would have several short-wave and television stations if necessary if we were living in normal times, but Deputy Aiken, when he was Minister for Finance, as well as Deputy Little when he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, opposed this short-wave station.

It is in the Book of Estimates.

He opposed it as Minister for Finance.

That puts a different colour on things.

It is in the Book of Estimates approved by the Minister for Finance.

The Deputy was responsible for providing the cash for the people. As Minister for Finance, the Deputy opposed it.

And I put it in the Book of Estimates, with my approval and signature.

The Deputy had his own opinions at one time, as Deputy Little had when he was Minister.

I put up the difficulties to the Government.

He opposed Deputy de Valera as Minister for External Affairs when he suggested a short-wave station here, but let us forget about that.

Mr. de Valera

Did the Minister say I was against it?

No; the Deputy was the chief advocate in favour of it.

Mr. de Valera

It would be interesting to know what view the Minister took in the matter.

The ex-Ministers know what happened last year at the International Conference. You have a station erected now and you have no wavelength. We are now asked to spend another £100,000 this year when we have no wavelength and no hope of getting one.

Are you going to send them out to Mexico?

Some of the back benchers may not be aware of the arguments put up at the conference last year as to why Ireland should not have a short-wave station. I am not prepared to go cap in hand, nor am I prepared to send any Irishman cap in hand, for what we believe are our rights. If the International Conference is still in existence, we will send representatives to fight for our rights and I believe that the attitude we have taken up might mean that we will get some of our rights sooner than we would if we went there determined that we were going to have the station, whether or not we got a wavelength.

Nobody has a wavelength on the short-waves—they are all merely using them.

The argument put up here to-night in favour of the short-wave station was that it could be used in time of emergency. Do Deputies not know that with the powerful stations of Germany, Russia and even America, we could be bottled up inside an hour, even if we had a short-wavelength? That being so, when we were faced with Estimates to the amount of £88,000,000, I was asked how I could make economies. Our concern was to increase the old age pensioners' allowance and to give the old man and his wife at least 35/- per week in the evening of their days, to provide the beds in sanatoria for which people were appealing through charitable organisations and public bodies, and houses for those people in Dublin who were living in condemned houses and slums. That was the problem that we were faced with and, if the Deputy were faced with a similar problem, I am certain that he would decide to postpone the expenditure of £50,000 or £100,000 this year on a short-wave station and spend the money instead on the relief of poverty and destitution in the country.

When we have provided these social services for our people, when we will have increased the old age pensioners' allowances and have enabled them to live in frugal comfort, let us have our short-wave station and tell our friends in New Zealand that the people here have a scheme of social services similar to that which they enjoy. Let us then tell our friends in America and other parts of the world that the pensions of their kith and kin here have been increased to enable them to live in frugal comfort. When we have these good tidings to tell our people, we can proceed, next year or the following year, with the short-wave station and give these tidings to our kith and kin abroad. As I have explained, the station remains intact, but there will be no programme this year. Deputy de Valera has argued that it is necessary to have programmes and he says that the money can be easily found.

Mr. de Valera

I do not think I ever said that.

The Deputy said it was all a question of money. Every case a Minister puts up is a question of money. Where were we to get the money for this purpose? Either by charging increased licence fees to the people at home to pay for foreign propaganda who would not be getting the two programmes which have been advocated from all sides of the House or by taxation. We are not in a position, as Deputy Little well knows, to give two programmes at present. We have not got the frequencies and have not been allocated a wavelength by the International Conference of which we are members.

As regards the short-wave station, the ex-Ministers know that if we had it to-morrow, we could not use it to advocate the removal of Partition. They know the arguments which had to be put up at the International Conference and they know that we could not put up as an argument designed to secure the support of other countries that we proposed to advocate the removal of Partition, being dependent as we were on their votes. They know that that was not the argument put up last year and I do not think it is an argument which any of our representatives can put up. We have at the same time our own views and every Irishman is against Partition. I believe that every man, no matter which side of the House he sits on, will use all his powers in an effort to remove that canker.

What about the proPartition propaganda in the "Ulster Half-hour" from the B.B.C.?

The Minister must be allowed to reply.

I am asking a question.

The Deputy may do so, if the Minister gives way.

What about the pro-Partition propaganda going out every week in the half-hour which they have the impudence to call the "Ulster Half-hour"?

What propaganda did you give us to counteract it?

I understand that the Deputy did very good work, along with Deputy de Valera, on his tour in refuting these statements and that he was able to do more than the "Ulster Half-hour" is doing at present. We have our ambassadors in different countries, and, no matter where Irishmen may be and no matter what their opinions on other matters may be, they are all against the partition of this country, and, whether as a Minister or not, I will always try to do everything I possibly can to bring about its removal, whether by means of a short-wave station a long-wave station or a station of any other wave.

But you will not spend any money on it.

I prefer to spend the money on relieving the poor and destitute, and I believe that, if it came to a vote, we would find a very large percentage of support, even on the Deputy's benches, for our policy.

It is national health insurance money you are spending on the old age pensions.

I believe it is better, for this year, at least, to do all we can in the matter of improving the lot of our people than to spend £50,000 or £100,000 on a short-wave station for which we have no wavelength. If we get the wavelength, then it will be be another day's work. There have been references to two programmes and to many other things which are necessary. With these I agree, if we had the money. I am not in a position to say that we can give two programmes. We have not got a wavelength, but it may be that, by next year, following the conference in Copenhagen we may be in a position to secure a wavelength for a double programme. The money must be provided either by increased licence fees or through taxation. There are only two ways of getting it.

Deputy Lemass said he saw no reason why we could not have the short-wave station this year. Did not he know very well that the wavelength must be authorised by the International Committee? Attacks have been made on the deputy director of broadcasting. The deputy director is under the control of the Director of Broadcasting and the news editor is under the complete control of the Director of Broadcasting. Therefore, it is with the authority and approval of the Director of Broadcasting that the matters that have been complained of have taken place.

I have to thank Deputies for the way in which they have conducted this debate. As I have said, it is different from the other debates that have taken place, but I would ask Deputies not to be led away by the appeal made by Deputy Lemass or Deputy Little or the other suggestion that we are against the establishment of a short-wave station. I have stated that we have merely postponed it for this year. In view of the serious financial position, we considered it much more important, as we had not got a wavelength from the International Committee, to spend the money on the social services I have outlined. If this station is still in existence, we will send representatives in the autumn to the conference in Mexico City and I hope then that we will be able to retain the station. If we retain it, even without the wavelength, it is my intention to put on a programme for a short time each day.

There has been misunderstanding. We should not allow anything to happen which would not be in the interests of the country as a whole. As I have pointed out, there are very serious problems in connection with social services and there are thousands of pounds that can be saved this year by the elimination of unnecessary expenditure or by postponing certain expenditure for a few years. That is the reason we have postponed the building of the concert hall, the building of the broadcasting station, and other buildings in the Post Office. We want to concentrate all our effort, material and skilled labour on providing the homes which all members of the House desire to see every Irishman occupying.

Mr. Byrne

Can the Minister give us a guarantee that he is only postponing the operation of this short-wave station and that he will continue negotiations from to-morrow and go on with the preliminaries so that, if he comes before us again in a year's time to ask for the money, he will be able to tell us that he has all the necessary plans made?

The Minister should give the Deputy some excuse for voting against the motion.

Mr. Byrne

I asked the Minister a question. I did not ask for the Deputy's interruptions.

Mr. de Valera

The Minister said that if the station be in existence in October, he will send some representatives. What does he mean exactly? I cannot understand that. The Minister is not answering.

Motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration," put and declared negatived.

Vote put and agreed to.
Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
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