Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Jul 1948

Vol. 112 No. 9

Social Welfare Bill, 1948—Second Stage.

I move:—

That the Bill be now read a Second Time.

It affords me pleasure to recommend for the approval of the House a Bill, the main purpose of which is to distribute £2,500,000 a year by way of increased social welfare benefits. Deputies are aware that on its coming into office the present Government committed itself to a policy of improving the social services. As the Minister who was entrusted with giving effect to this policy it was, to my mind, important that the greatest improvements should be granted at the earliest moment to those whose needs are greatest and most urgent. Few, I think, will cavil at my decision to allot the greatest share—£1,500,000—to the old age pensioners nor indeed to the second allotment—almost £1,000,000—to the necessitous widows and orphans. These sums will be distributed by way of increased pensions and allowances and through an abatement of the means tests. The present Bill does not abolish the means tests but it considerably modifies them. I remain convinced of the desirability of doing away with them altogether and am hopeful that, in the not too distant future, it will be possible to do so. It is proper that in order to secure the best value from our present limited financial resources money should not be spent in directions where the need is not too severe. If we were to go beyond a certain limit of need, the taxpayers' money would be distributed in quarters where it was not needed. It should be remembered, too, that approximately 90 per cent. of old age pensioners are at present in receipt of the maximum rate of pension and so are not affected by further modifications of the means tests. I must say, however, that on principle, I should like, if it were possible, to be able to avoid the necessity for inquiring into a person's means at all, but I must for the moment stand over what I regard as the more important principle that we should distribute what is available to the best advantage—that is, to those in the greatest need.

I need hardly say that it is my earnest wish to grant these improvements at as early a date as possible. Were it not for certain administrative necessities, I should like to give effect to this Bill as soon as it has become an Act. The House, however, will hardly fail to appreciate that changes of this magnitude involve action which in the physical sense cannot be made to conform to one's personal desires. The present Bill, in fact, necessitates the following work: an examination of about 23,000 existing non-contributory widows' and orphans' pensions with a view to awarding new pensions, taking into consideration the increased rates and the modified means tests; an examination of thousands of new claims for widows' pensions; a review and adjustment to new rates of 150,000 existing old age and blind pensions; an investigation of many new claims for old age and blind pensions; the production, preparation and issue of about 23,000 pension order books for existing pensions under the Widows' and Orphans' Pensions Acts and some further thousands for new pensions; the production, preparation and distribution of about 150,000 pension order books for existing pensions under the Old Age Pensions Acts and some additional thousands for new pensioners; the recall and cancellation of about 20,000 cash supplement and widows' and orphans' pension order books and the recall and cancellation of about 150,000 old age pension order books.

A large amount of work has fallen on the Department of Social Welfare since its inception; for example, that arising out of the transfer of functions, the introduction of cash supplements last year, the conducting of reciprocal arrangements and, not least, the action preparatory to the present measure since the new Government took office five months ago. I am satisfied that my Department is well staffed and that it has done and is doing a considerable amount of solid work of lasting benefit to the community. Miracles, however, cannot be achieved and there is a limit to what even the most earnest people can accomplish. I am constrained to wait until January 7th before the new conditions can be made operative. I may say here that even the fixation of that date will impose a very heavy strain on the resources of the Department, and the officers of the Department will be called upon to perform what in ordinary circumstances one would consider to be an exceptionally heavy volume of work.

Before passing briefly over the different parts and aspects of the Bill. I should like to remind Deputies that until the emergency the various insurance schemes, national health insurance, unemployment insurance and contributory widows' and orphans' pensions were based on the sound insurance principle that the cost of the benefits would be borne by the three parties—the State, the employer and the employee. When the emergency situation arose the Exchequer supplemented those benefits by way of cash supplements as a temporary expedient without requiring any increased contributions from the remaining parties— that is, the employer and the employee. Thus, an unsatisfactory feature was introduced into the insurance schemes— a principle whereby benefits were not related, as they had been in the past, to contributions.

It was felt desirable to restore the old insurance basis by placing the liability for these cash supplements in future on the employers, the insured contributors and the State in the same proportion as the basic pensions now payable are paid for. In doing this I am ensuring that the general character of the schemes is restored so that there will be a better understanding of the basic principles underlying them when the time comes for the introduction of the comprehensive scheme.

I pass on now to Part II of the Bill relating to old age pensions. This Part of the Bill introduces a new scale of pensions for old age pensioners and for blind persons. It modifies generally the means test applicable to these pensions so that the pensioners may enjoy greater means than at present without the existing reduction of pension. It reduces the minimum age for blind persons' pensions from 30 to 21 years and excludes within certain limits the personal earnings of these pensioners from the computation of means. The general effect of these changes, which will enable persons to claim pensions who are at present excluded and will increase the pensions at present payable, will be that the section of the community concerned will benefit to the extent of about £1,500,000 over and above what they are now receiving in pensions. It is an anomaly that a pension for a blind person of 21 years is granted under the Old Age Pensions Acts, but that is the history of these pensions. I mention the matter because the heading of this Part of the Bill deals with the amendment of the Old Age Pensions Acts and, when I speak of pensions in connection with this Part of the Bill, I mean both old age and blind persons' pensions.

Pensioners in urban areas at present receive 15/- a week, including cash supplements, which is reduced by 1/- a week and down to 1/- in accordance with a scale of means ranging from £15 12s. 6d. to £39 5s. 0d. per annum. No pension is payable where means exceed this latter figure. The Bill now before the House substitutes a pension scale of 17/6, reduced by 2/6 a week to a minimum of 5/-, with a new means scale ranging from £15 12s. 6d. to £52 5s. per annum above which latter figure no pension is payable. As Deputies will have seen from the explanatory memorandum which was circulated there are at present ten classifications of old age pensioners. In the Bill these classifications have been reduced to six. In proposing to reduce the qualifying age for blind persons' pensions to 21 years, instead of the present 30 years, I am proceeding on the basis that it is reasonable that an adult who, but for his affliction, might normally be expected to be self-supporting should be entitled to benefit by these pensions without waiting to reach an age for which I am unable to find any satisfactory justification, and which appears to have been arbitrarily fixed. In order to encourage recipients of blind pensions to undertake gainful occupation, and so improve their general circumstance, this Bill proposes to exclude blind pensioners' personal earnings, within certain limits, in the calculation of means. It seems to me, reasonable that this exclusion should have regard to the pensioner's family responsibility and the Bill accordingly allows a basic £52 of earnings to be excluded in computing means, and allows this to be increased to £39 in respect of a wife or dependent husband, and £26 each in respect of children.

These are the main provisions of this part of the Bill, but it also provides for the necessary review of all existing pensions in view of the new rates and means scale; for certain payments such as allowances under the Health Act to sufferers from certain infectious diseases, and blind welfare allowances, being disregarded as means for pension purposes; and for a reduced fee of 6d. for birth certificates for old age pension purposes.

I pass now to Part III of the Bill. Under the cash supplements Order of last year recipients of benefit under the National Health Insurance Acts are entitled to cash supplements in addition to the basic benefit. All these supplements are of a temporary and provisional nature, and their payment by the Exchequer, apart from the National Health Insurance Fund, was a departure from the insurance principle on which the finance of the National Health Insurance Acts are traditionally based. It is proposed under the Bill that the cash supplements payable under the national health insurance scheme should become permanent and should be merged in the basic benefits. At the same time it is proposed to restore the old insurance basis so that the cash supplements will, in future, be paid for by the employers, the insured contributors and the State in the same proportions as the basic benefits now payable are paid for.

It is considered better on general principles that this amalgamation of benefit and cash supplement should take place now as the present scheme of social insurance will form the foundation of the future comprehensive scheme of social insurance. The increase in contributions will also provide for an increase in the rate of remuneration of doctors who issue medical certificates to insured persons and for the additional expense of administration of the National Health Insurance Society arising out of the increase in wages and salaries granted in recent years to the staff of the society in common with all other employed persons.

The proposals in Part IV of the Bill are to raise the insurability limit for non-manual workers from £250 to £500 per annum, to substitute for cash supplements equivalent increase in the rates of unemployment benefit, and to increase the weekly rates of unemployment insurance contributions so as to ensure that the Unemployment Fund will continue to be in a position to bear the additional liability which the increases in the rates of unemployment benefit will impose on it. Advantage is being taken of the opportunity afforded by the Bill to incorporate in the Unemployment Insurance Acts as permanent features, the increased allowances payable in respect of adult and child dependents, and the rule governing the continuity of unemployment introduced in 1941 by Emergency Powers Orders which are now being revoked. The insurability limit of £250 per year for non-manual workers is out of date in the light of remuneration changes of recent years and many workers who have ceased to be insurable by reason of increased remuneration would, in the course of time, lose the advantage of their contributions, whether paid under the general scheme or the special scheme for the insurance industry. In that case the persons concerned would have no cover whatever and could not participate in our unemployment insurance legislation since they would be outside the scope of the Act if their remuneration in nonmanual employment exceeded £250 per annum.

Provision is also being made in the Bill to ensure that workers who have ceased to be insurable will not, by reason of the lapse of time, lose any of the rights acquired before the cessation of insurance. The temporary increases in unemployment benefit granted by way of cash supplements will, under the Bill, become part of the permanent rates of unemployment benefit. In order to offset the additional liability so imposed on the Unemployment Fund, the weekly rates of unemployment insurance contributions will be increased from the 4th October, 1948, by 4d. in the case of men and women, and 1½d. in the case of boys and girls. This will mean an increase in the employee's contribution of 2d. per week for men and women, 1d. in the case of girls and ½d. in the case of boys.

Part V of the Bill proposes to adjust the position of persons resident in houses owned by the local authority of a city or town but situated outside such area so that such residents will be entitled to the city or town rates of unemployment assistance and will otherwise be treated as if they were resident in the city or the town. This proposal will remedy a long-standing grievance amongst residents in certain areas adjoining Cork City who were removed to houses built by the Cork Corporation outside the city boundary. At present they receive only the lower rates of unemployment assistance applicable to their area of residence. Under the Bill such persons will, for the purpose of unemployment assistance, be treated in all respects as if they were resident in Cork City. This advantage will not, of course, be confined to Cork, but will be extended to all persons similarly circumstanced in other areas.

This part of the Bill also makes provision for enabling the disqualification for unemployment assistance imposed in the case of persons losing employment through misconduct or leaving voluntarily without just cause to be varied from one week to three months, thus giving to the disqualification considerable flexibility which will enable unemployment assistance officers and courts of referees to adjust the period of disqualification to the circumstances of the individual case.

The removal of the disqualifications for unemployment assistance applicable to persons convicted of an offence under the Unemployment Insurance Acts or of any other crime or offence, which is also provided for in the Bill, will have the benefit of securing that persons so convicted will not suffer loss of unemployment assistance in addition to any penalty imposed by the courts.

The opportunity is taken in the Bill of substituting for the temporary cash supplements equivalent increases in the rates of unemployment assistance and of incorporating permanently in the unemployment assistance code, the modified rule governing continuity of unemployment introduced by Emergency Powers Order in 1941. Cash supplements are payable only to persons entitled to receive some unemployment assistance at the existing rates. An effect of the substitution for cash supplements of increases in the rates of unemployment assistance will to be admit to unemployment assistance persons who, by reason of their means, cannot at present quality for unemployment assistance at the existing rates.

Part VI of the Bill deals with widows' and orphans' pensions under two heads, firstly, contributory pensions, and secondly, non-contributory pensions. As regards contributory pensions, the general intention of the Bill is the same as in the case of the other insurance schemes, that is to restore the fundamental insurance principle which was departed from by the payment of cash supplements out of the Exchequer. It is proposed, therefore, to merge the existing cash supplements in the basic pensions and have them paid for on the same insurance basis which governs the finances of the original pension scheme. I am, however, proposing something more in certain case than a mere addition of the cash supplements. I hope on the Committee Stage to introduce an amendment to provide that in the case of certain contributory agricultural pensions, the combined rates will be raised to a somewhat higher level than at present.

With regard to the non-contributory pensions, I felt that it would not be sufficient merely to merge the existing cash supplements in the basic pensions and allowances and I have, therefore, decided that reasonably generous increases should be granted on this side. It will be seen from the explanatory memorandum how generous the proposed increases are. The new maximum pension for a widow without dependent children will be 14/- per week in an urban area where as at present it is as low as 7/6 and cannot exceed 11/6, and 10/- a week in the rural area where at present the rate of pension is 8/- a week. For a widow with ten children the maximum weekly pension will be 58/- in an urban area where now it is as low as 43/6 and cannot exceed 52/-. In the rural areas the maximum pension for a widow with ten children will be 54/- in future where now it is 32/6.

To make the scheme more readily intelligible to the general public, there will be only two areas as against four areas at present for the purpose of relating the pension to the pensioners area of residence. All the county boroughs, boroughs, urban districts and towns will constitute the urban area and the remainder of the country will be the rural area. This increase together with the modification of the means test, to which I will refer later, will have the effect of bringing into the scheme large numbers of widows at present excluded owing to the combined effect of the means test and the existing low rate of non-contributory pensions.

The cost of these new proposals will be in the neighbourhood of £650,000 per annum. It is also proposed to modify the means test for non-contributory pensions by disregarding the first 10/- of a widow's weekly earnings and any sums up to a maximum of 10/- per week received by a widow as voluntary contributions. These represent a considerable improvement in the present position under which no special exemption applies to earned income. The exemption for gratuitous payments, as for instance, remittances in cash from members of the family, at present limited to 2s. 6d. per week, is now raised to 10/- per week. The main purpose of these amendments is, on the one hand, to encourage the widow to work and to provide for herself and her family by disregarding any income up to a maximum of 10/- per week. That is something that does not exist at the moment and it is a new concession to non-contributory widows. It is proposed also to allow a widow to receive up to 10/- a week from a son, a daughter or any other relative or any organisation, without taking that sum of money into consideration for the purpose of ascertaining the means of an applicant for a non-contributory widow's pension.

The limit of age, 55 years, for a childless widow has in the past caused considerable dissatisfaction. Widows have had their pensions terminated when the only dependent child left school or attained the age of 16 years and have had to wait to the age of 55 for the restoration of the pension. This is now remedied by reducing the qualifying age for all non-contributory pensions from 55 years to 48 years. The annual cost of that concession is £210,000. I might here say that it is anticipated that the effect of that amendment in the existing Acts will be to permit 7,000 widows, who at present are ineligible because of the structure of the Acts to obtain a non-contributory pension, to qualify for a non-contributory pension when this Bill has been passed into law. The annual cost to the Exchequer of the proposals regarding non-contributory pensions will be in the neighbourhood of £860,000.

This Bill is not in my view an end in itself but it has one important end. It carries our social services and our social legislation a very substantial step forward. It provides more security for the weak and the helpless and it is calculated to brighten their lot by the distribution of a sum of £2,500,000 per annum additional to whatever income they have from our present social services. The fact that it does that, that it will help to brighten the lives of the weak and helpless members of the community will, I am sure, commend the Bill to all Parties in the House.

Much, however, remains to be done before we can regard our social services as adequate to the requirements of our people and no time must be lost in bringing before the House measures designed to lift our social services to a plane of which we can feel proud. When this Bill has been passed by the Oireachtas I hope to concentrate upon the production of a comprehensive scheme of social services. With this Bill out of the way and in operation, the comprehensive scheme will be tackled with earnestness and expedition, and I hope the House will have the opportunity in the course of a few months of seeing the White Paper in connection with that scheme. I would take this opportunity of bespeaking the support of the House, not merely for the purposes that have been brought before it, but for a warm endorsement of the long overdue provisions of this Bill.

This was a very difficult Bill to read without consulting a number of Acts and Orders. The explanatory memoranda, which was, indeed, very helpful, did not cover some of the points on which I would have liked some information. As far as I can see—I am sure the Minister will correct me if I am not right—the Minister proposes to give an increase to the non-contributory classes, old age pensioners, blind pensioners, widows and orphans, and to give national health recipients, unemployment insurance and unemployment assistance recipients and contributory widows no increase over what they have at the moment. The Minister gave a figure of what it would cost to give this increase to the old age pensioners, blind pensioners and non-contributory widows. He estimates the cost of it at £2,500,000 in a full year. What I should have liked him to give us, however, is what the saving would be to the Exchequer when the national health and unemployment insurance members and the contributory widows will in future contribute to their pensions instead of getting a cash supplement from the Exchequer. I do not know what the saving may be, but if the Minister had given it we should have had a picture of the net costs to the Exchequer of the reforms the Minister is bringing in in this Bill. Perhaps he will be able to give us that figure later.

Another point that I was not able to make out either from the Bill or the explanatory memoranda was this. In the original scheme of national health, the employer pays so much per week, the employee pays so much per week and the State contributes a certain set proportion, two-ninths. In unemployment insurance the same thing applies. In the widows' contributory scheme as far as I remember, the employer and the employee contribute the lot. In the extension of this principle in this Bill to contributors to national health and unemployment insurance, is it provided that the State will give an equal proportion of the new cost to what was given in the past.

The second chapter of this Bill deals with old age pensioners and blind pensioners. When I saw in that part that the Minister proposed to give equal pensions to old age pensioners whether they lived in rural or urban areas, I was pleased because it is a principle that I would certainly have insisted upon following if I had been in the Minister's place in bringing in social reform. I would like to ask the Minister, however, why he did not follow that principle in other parts of the Bill. For instance, why is it not followed in the case of the contributory widow's scheme? There is a very involved table in the Bill giving us what a widow is entitled to, a widow alone, with one child, two children or more than two children, up to nine or ten children or as many children as she has, but it contains four different categories. I am not blaming the Minister for this because he is taking over what was there already. I am only saying that I would have been very pleased if he had cut it out and brought in a uniform scheme for the lot.

If a woman is the widow of a contributor who was not an agricultural labour and if she is living in an urban area she gets a certain level of pension; in a rural area she gets a different level of pension; if she is the widow of an agricultural worker she gets a different level again, which varies according to whether she lives in a rural or urban area. There are four different tables of pensions for a widow, and it is very confusing, indeed it must be very difficult for a widow to know what exactly she is entitled to or for any person helping a widow, whether a T.D. or anybody else, to say exactly what she should get. I do not know if it would cost a great deal or if there is any possibility that the Minister has examined this and would be able to tell us if he could give widows the same pension, irrespective of who her husband was or where she lived when she became a widow, the same applying to one child or more as the case might be. It would be following the principle the Minister has adopted in the case of old age pensioners. They will get the same whether they lived in a town or the country up to the age of 70 and whether they remained in the town or country or moved from the town to the country or the country to the town. It is a pity that the Minister could not do the same for the contributory and non-contributory widows' pensions. I would ask the Minister if he has considered the point and, if it is possible, to remedy it before the Bill goes through.

Another anomaly is that according to this Bill, in certain cases if a widow gets a non-contributory pension she gets more than if she were contributing. This is very bad. I do not say that a non-contributory pensioner should get less, but I do say that for a contributory pensioner to get less is very bad. Take the case of two women who become widows, one was married to a contributor who contributed for years towards a pension for his wife if she should become a widow, while the other was married to a man who never contributed. We find that when they become widows the person who made no contribution gets more than the other and this is not likely to make the scheme very popular. On the Committee Stage the Minister should certainly bring in an amendment to make it absolutely certain that in all circumstances the widow of a contributor will get appreciably more than the widow of a non-contributor. Anybody who will consult the explanatory memorandum will find on comparing the pension which a widow with a large family will get that it will in come cases be better when she is in the non-contributory class than if she were in the contributory class. I think Deputies will agree with me that that is a matter which should be made right on the Committee stage by the Minister. When I was studying this Bill before the Minister made his speech, it gave me the impression that the Minister had not given as much thought to the preparation of the Bill as he should. That, however, might happen to anybody and, if he is prepared on the Committee Stage to put that matter right, we shall all be very glad to say that he is doing the right thing.

Another matter that I noticed when studying the Bill and the memorandum was in connection with the contributions. The contributions of non-agricultural insured people, taking the amount contributed by the employer as well as the employee, are raised by, roughly, 1/- per week. In the case of the agricultural worker they are raised less than that. We must remember, however, that the agricultural worker is not insured against unemployment. He is only insured against sickness and under the widows' and orphans' pensions scheme. As a matter of fact, the biggest contributions of the three classes come under unemployment insurance. One thing, however, strikes me as rather inexplicable. The Minister may be able to explain it, because these figures are very intricate and very difficult to understand unless one has at his disposal expert advice, such as that of an actuary. I should like the Minister to tell me, if he can, why, for instance, the agricultural worker should have to pay a very much higher percentage increase in his contribution than the non-agricultural worker, because that is the position. As I say, there may be an explanation for it, but it does not strike me, and I am sure the Minister, if he can, will tell me what the explanation is.

Speaking about contributions, the Minister stated that it was unsatisfactory that the Exchequer should pay the full supplementary cash allowance. I think the Minister said that it was a departure from principle. I can understand the Minister or anybody else believing in the principle that pensions should be contributory. I do not think, however, that we are departing from a very set principle, because in the national health insurance scheme and the unemployment insurance scheme the employer pays so much, the employee so much and the State so much. If, for any particular reason, we vary the amount that the State gives, we are not departing from principle. I do not know if we can even say we are creating an unsatisfactory position. I should, therefore, like the Minister to elaborate a little more on that particular point and tell us from what point of view it is unsatisfactory. It may be unsatisfactory from the point of view of the Exchequer and, if we are going on to a comphehensive scheme, it may be impossible to give bigger benefits without increasing the contributions. That is a matter, however, of expediency, in my opinion, not a matter of principle. I do not know what principle is involved in the State giving a bit more than it has given up to this or what principle the Minister is establishing or recreating by relieving the State of the amount it has been paying for the last 12 or 15 months and making the employer and the employee pay instead.

The next matter I want to mention is the means test. This is a very involved matter. What makes it involved is that it has rather a long historical background. As Deputies know, the Act of 1919 was amended in 1924. That is where the trouble started, I think, because under the Act of 1919 a person could have £26 5s. 0d. per year, or 10/- per week, and get a full pension, and a person could have £49 17s. 6d. per year, or, I think, it is 19/- per week, before he passed out of the pension altogether. People would get something if they were under that amount. But in the 1924 Act, which was brought in by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, not only was 1/- taken off the old age pension, but the means test was changed also. The lower limit was brought down from £26 5s. 0d. to £15 12s. 6d. and the higher limit from £49 17s. 6d. to £39 5s. 0d. That made a very big difference in the means test.

Now the Minister proposes to raise the top level to £52 5s. 0d., but he leaves the lower level at £15 12s. 6d., and I maintain that the lower level was the important one. It is the lower level that gave the most trouble and that we should try to alter it if we want to get satisfaction under the old age pensions code, so far as the means test is concerned. The lower level is 6/- per week. If a person is receiving in cash more than 6/- per week, then for every 1/- per week he receives in cash over 6/- his pension is abated. It was abated up to this roughly on the basis of 1/- off for every 1/- he gets over 6/-. The Minister is changing that to 2/6, but the principle still remains. I agree with the Minister that the 2/6 arrangement is, perhaps, better than the 1/- arrangement on the whole.

There was some alteration made in the means test in 1932, but the £15 12s. 6d. was not altered. In 1932, for instance, there were a few very good changes made. Up to that time, if a man and his wife were getting the old age pension, the means that they had were divided in two and half the total means of the two was applied to each person and the pension was assessed accordingly. Up to 1932, when one of those old people died it was the rule that all the means came on to the surviving person. It often happened that an old age pensioner not only lost his wife but also his pension or an old age pensioner lost her husband and also her pension, as the case may be. That was remedied in 1932. The law laid down that from then on there would be no reassessment of means when one of the people died. The survivor would carry on as if the means were the same as if the two were there. Therefore, the pension was not reduced. There was another reform at that time, while I am on the subject of the 1932 Act, and it was that a blind person became entitled to a pension at the age of 30. Previous to that a blind person became eligible for pension at 70 years of age so there was a big reduction. The Minister said that he saw no reason for 30 and that he thought it was arbitrary. Perhaps it was. The Minister will probably understand that when a Minister seeks to have the approval of various Government Departments for an Act of this kind he often cannot go as far as he would like to go. The Minister at that time probably thought he was doing well in reducing it from 70 years to 30 years. I am glad the Minister has gone further and has now made the age 21.

Another reform at that time which was principally on the means side was that of making it easier for a person to dispossess himself of land and draw the pension. The position still is that since the 1924 Act was passed the lower limit of means is £15 12s. 0d., or 6/- per week. A debate on the means test in this House last autumn was referred to on the Estimate for Social Welfare. I was looking through the speeches made on that particular occasion within the last few days and I found that the cases that were cited by nearly all the speakers who sought an alteration of the means test were two. The first referred to a man who was entitled to a pension from his late employer and, in particular, the case of Córas Iompair Éireann was quoted. The second referred to a person who was getting a certain amount of cash from his children. It was pointed out in this House then that it was very harsh that if children sent their father or their mother, who was an old age pensioner, a certain small amount of cash per week or per month, cognisance should be taken of it and the pension reduced. Again, where a person was entitled to a pension from his late employer, and in particular from Córas Iompair Éireann, when he came to 70 he could no longer draw the 15/- from Córas Iompair Éireann, because if he did he could—before the beginning of 1947—draw only 1/- old age pension. Córas Iompair Éireann, therefore, reduced their pension to 6/- so that they could draw their 10/- old age pension; in that way the pensioner drew his 16/- per week. That particular flaw will remain under this means test. The old age pensioner who is drawing a pension as an employee of a firm, such as Córas Iompair Éireann, will be in the same position as before. It is no advantage to him to get more than 6/- a week from Córas Iompair Éireann when he reaches 70, because if he gets any more his old age pension will be reduced.

The old age pensioner who is getting cash from his children will be in the same position as before, too. If he gets more than 6/- a week in cash from his children his pension will be abated. We shall have the same trouble as far as that is concerned when this Bill is passed as we have before the Bill is passed. It is a great pity that the Minister, when he was changing the means test scale, did not go back at least to the 1924 Act and make good the damage that was done then by restoring the lower limit that was in operation before 1924, namely, £26 5s. 0d. a year, or 10/- a week. I think we would all probably like if even that could be improved. These scales are very complicated, but let me take certain cases at random in relation to this scale as it is arranged. In certain cases—I do not want to cite them now, because they would not add to my case in any way—the increases to which pensioners in the urban area will be entitled will be extremely small—only about 6d. a week. It depends on the means of that pensioner at the moment. In some cases he will get 2/6 a week if he is lucky to be at a certain level of means and in other cases he will get only 6d. a week. If we are bringing in a reform of this kind there must be some uniformity. Everybody cannot expect to benefit to the same extent. The only way to give equal benefit to everybody would be to raise the existing scale by a certain uniform amount, say 5/- a week. I am not advocating that because, on the whole, I agree with the Minister's idea of making 2/6 jumps rather than 1/-.

Deputies will have noticed Section 13 of this Bill. It is a saving for certain existing pensioners. When I saw that section I said to myself that the Minister must have in mind that there are certain people who would actually be worse off under this Bill than they are at the moment if he did not insert it and that this saving section is inserted to ensure that whatever benefits this Bill may confer on old age pensioners, or potential old age pensioners, it cannot reduce the pension that is at the moment payable to any particular old age pensioner. I find now what I think is the need for this clause. There are at the moment old age pensioners drawing cash allowances for their children. They were getting food allowances for the children but these were converted into cash under the second of a series of orders made under social welfare last year. Under this Bill no provision is made for the children of these old age pensioners. No provision is made for the wives or dependents. If the Bill were passed without a saving clause then, of course, the old age pensioners who are now getting allowances for their children would lose and would be worse off than they are at the moment. For that reason this clause is put in to safeguard them and their children. That is fair enough as far as existing pensioners are concerned, because their position is not worsened. As far as future pensioners are concerned they will be deprived of these benefits because if they become pensioners after the 7th January next they will get no benefit for their children. If they are lucky enough to reach 70 before that date they will benefit.

There is a grading up with regard to the means test for old age pension purposes, but the grading is at the top. I think it ought to be at the other end of the scale and the level of £15 12s. 6d. should be raised. I notice, too, that there is no change so far as the unemployment assistance classes are concerned. I have a certain sympathy with the Minister in dealing with that particular class. It is a class which will cause a great deal of trouble in a comprehensive scheme. For that reason, I do not propose to deal with it at the moment. I think it is the general feeling of all Parties that the lower limit should be raised. Within the last three or four years various motions were discussed before this House. If those debates are examined it will be found that nobody ever mentioned a figure lower than £1 per week and, in mentioning that figure, they had in mind that the recipient would receive the full pension. The Minister has put the £1 a week at the other end. A man gets no pension when he reaches £1 a week.

He does. He gets the minimum 5/-.

Yes, but not with a 1d. a week more than £1. I thought that in preparing this comprehensive scheme upon which the Minister is now engaged that we should try to have something very simple. A great deal of trouble arises both for the applicant and those who assist him, such as Deputies, Senators, and so on, because of the complicated nature of the present system. Very, very often when a case is decided by the officials there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction. You will always have that where there is latitude of opinion. For that reason, I think it would be a good idea to have some definite basis. The Minister said he would like to do away with the means test altogether. If he does away with the means test there will have to be a complete reorientation of social welfare. That might be advisable. Under such a scheme everybody would be entitled to an old age pension, irrespective of means, and everybody would have to contribute. If, however, we are going to have a means test it should be a simple one. At £1 a week pensioners should get the full pension in cash.

Subsequently, the pensions should be abated by whatever private means the recipients had over and above that £1. In that way the table could be done away with. Calculation would be a simple matter and it would be within the compass of everybody to tell at a glance what the rate of pension should be in a particular case. That, too, would help to obviate grievances on the part of the pensioner. With regard to land holders, instead of a means test on a cash basis, it should be on a valuation basis. If that were done a good deal of the present confusion, heart burning and dissatisfaction would cease.

I do not want to be too critical of the Minister at this stage, because he is merely bringing in now what might be regarded as an interim proposal. He says he hopes to have a White Paper on a comprehensive scheme within a few months. I hope, however, that Deputies on the Government Benches will now appreciate the absurdity of putting a rhetorical question, such as they were always putting to me when I was on that side of the House, as to how a man could live on 15/- a week. I always gave the answer: "He cannot". No man could live on 15/- a week. Perhaps the Deputies now on the Government Benches may ask the Minister: "How can a man live on 17/6 a week?" I think everybody will agree that if a man cannot live on 15/- a week neither can he live on 17/6 a week. He will have achieved a great deal if Deputies realise that there is no use in putting that question. That question could equally be put if the old age pension were £2 per week. As the Minister said, all we can do is to find out how much we can give to social welfare. Having found the answer to that, we shall then have to consider the best way to distribute it.

I do not believe we could ever bring about a social welfare scheme which would enable people to live in comfort. The Labour Party when they were in opposition produced a scheme. Under that scheme they did not give enough for people to live on; their scheme of old age pensions was only £1 per week. They gave much better benefits to unemployment and national health. The Department at that time calculated that the scheme would cost £44,000,000. I am sure the Minister has verified that since he took office. Even if the Minister were to introduce a scheme now costing £44,000,000 he would still not be able to give a sum which would enable people to live in comfort.

Let us agree, therefore, as the Minister put it, that whatever we can afford we will vote for social welfare and then let us agree we will distribute it to the best possible advantage. We may dispute with the Minister that he has gone as far as he could. I think this country could afford more. The Minister probably thinks so, too, and I suppose we shall have to wait for his White Paper to see what it is going to be. I am afraid we cannot afford to give £3 a week to the unemployed man and 32/6 a week to every person over 65 years. That was another scheme produced by a Party before the election. I do not think it could be done, because it would cost many more millions than the Labour Party scheme. It is a great thing to have the Parties over there, now that they have to settle down to realities. They defend the Minister for Social Welfare and say to their followers in the country: "We have a great Minister for Social Welfare, because he is giving 17/6 a week to the old age pensioners."

And we reduced the Budget, too.

It is a great thing for Deputy O'Leary to be able to go to Enniscorthy and say to his followers that he has a good Minister who will give 17/6 a week to the old age pensioners.

You did not give them anything and that is what put you over there.

The Minister is lucky in this, that he has a well informed and more reasonable opposition. We, during our period of office, had an opposition that did not know what they were talking about and they were most unreasonable. There is that great change, and the Minister's task will be very easy. I expect he will do a lot better. He talks about issuing a White Paper and I take it that will give a considered view of what a fair system of social welfare will be.

I have a certain sympathy for the Minister in that he has not got the same easy going with the different Parties that form the Government. I do not know whether these Parties have changed their attitude. When I was sitting over there on the 13th May, 1947, the present Taoiseach said:

"The existence of social services is an indication of ill-health in the body politic. In any case, as has been said, they are nothing more than a row of medicine bottles showing disease in the household. The sounder your economic fabric is, the less need there is for social services." (Column 73, Volume 106.)

In column 884, Volume 106, the present Minister for Finance said:

"We are instituting in this country what was called in the old days institutions of slavery...you must recreate the institutions of slavery. We do it with what we call social services and what I would call Grants-in-Aid to the inhabitants of servile States."

That appears to be the considered view of the Fine Gael Party. It must be very difficult to reconcile that with the views of some of the other Parties who form the Government. The Minister for External Affairs was talking in Kildare on the 27th November, 1947, and he said that they would introduce a scheme of social insurance to enable those unable to earn their living to get benefits equal to the basic minimum wage, that wage to be fixed on the cost of living and it would fluctuate with the cost of living. Another leader of a Party, Deputy Larkin, said in his election address that the Labour Party had a social security policy to meet the natural afflictions of old age pensioners and others 65 years and over, and he said there should be pensions of 25/- a week and no means test.

The Minister has not a very easy task when he tries to reconcile the views of those various components of the Government. He has on the one side the Fine Gael mentality, that social services are the badge of slavery, of the slave State, and you have on the other side demands for benefits equal to the basic minimum wage, and from Deputy Larkin a demand for 25/- per week for everybody over 65 years, irrespective of means. It is not so easy to get these matters reconciled, and that may be why the Minister has been constrained to introduce a compromise scheme for the time being. I hope he will make amends for the defects in this scheme when he comes with the White Paper and legislation.

I cannot understand this delay in the comprehensive scheme. I do not know why in was not brought forward instead of this interim scheme. When the Minister went into office his officials could have told him within 24 hours what any straight scheme would cost. They could have told him what a scheme based exactly on the lines of the Beverdge scheme would cost in this country. They could have told him what saving there would be in the total cost for every shilling by which every benefit was reduced, or what the extra cost would be if he wanted to give more than is given under the Beveridge scheme in Great Britain. These things were all ready. If Deputy Larkin was right, that the Labour Party had a social scheme ready, I do not know why it was necessary to have such a delay in producing the White Paper of which the Minister speaks.

The Minister tells us that even this scheme will be a great burden on his officials. I do notknow why. He said they had to issue 150,000 books for old age pensioners, 23,000 books for widows and orphans and additional books for new applicants in both classes. Then they had to recall the books they had there already. We were in the very same position in March of last year and, although we came to a decision to give these increases which are referred to by the Minister as the cash supplements, maybe six or eight weeks before 1st April, we had them in operation on the 1st April. It is not necessary exactly to print new books. The books at that time were overstamped. Stamps were added in some cases and in certain cases, not a very big number of cases, as far as I remember, where it was impossible to have arrangements made by the 1st April, people had to wait, I think, for six weeks, but then they got their money.

Surely to goodness if the Minister were to say now that he could bring in this comprehensive scheme within, say, three months but that he could not bring them all in in uniformity, that some of them would have to be paid in arrear, people would rather get them in arrear rather than not get them at all. I do not think there should be so much administrative difficulty in calling in certain books and issuing other books and examining some claims. New claims would create some difficulty but even if the new claims were left back for a few months, if the claimants are getting nothing now and if they are examined within, say, three months, they would have a hope of getting something in a few months' time. All these excuses—I do not want to say they are insincere excuses—and all these reasons given by the Minister do not impress me, I must say, as being very substantial and I think they could have been got over. I think the Minister could easily have produced his White Paper before now and have brought in his comprehensive scheme, at any rate, long before the end of this year.

It is hardly right I would say to use the time of the Oireachtas on a measure of this kind while it is quite obvious that within the next six months we shall have a codifying Bill dealing with all social services, which will provide a new code for all the various classes and which will, I presume, repeal all the Acts we have passed so far in connection with old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions, unemployment insurance, national health insurance, etc. This Bill will be repealed also I think. I think it is rather foolish to bring this Bill along, instead of, as the Minister should have, given his whole time to a comprehensive scheme and have it produced well before the end of the year.

I want the Minister to think at least over one or two things before the Committee Stage. The means test is one of these things. I think practically everybody here will agree that where we want an alteration of the means test is at the lower level—that is where the person is getting more than 6/- a week in cash—and that we should raise that level. I think that is more important than raising the level at the top. I think no member of the Opposition or indeed no ordinary Deputy of the House would be in order in putting forward an amendment of that kind because I think it would mean a charge on the Exchequer. All we can do, therefore, is to appeal to the Minister to introduce such an amendment on the Committee Stage. He should bring in an amendment to simplify the means test and to give relief at the lower level in particular.

There is another point. I do not know whether a Deputy would be in order in proposing an amendment to substitute a simple table for certain tables in the Bill dealing with contributory pensions, showing that the widow will be entitled to so much for each child and leaving out all the complications as to where her husband worked before he died and where she is residing now. I do not know, as I say, whether that would be in order for an ordinary Deputy but, at any rate, it would be extremely difficult for an ordinary Deputy to bring in an amendment like that because to construct such a table one would require expert assistance—first of all, assistance from the officials of the Department who have so much experience and so much knowledge of the subject and, secondly, possibly the assistance of an actuary. I would ask the Minister to consider these two amendments before the Committee Stage and I think no Deputy, whether on the Government side or this side of the House, will object if the Minister is able to deal with these two points.

While I am on this point of the table of pensions for a widow who is entitled to a contributory pension under the widows' and orphans' scheme, I should like to say that the Minister should make sure that the scale is appreciably better than the amount the non-contributory widow gets, because, as I pointed out earlier, it is very unfair that a man should contribute directly all his life towards a pension for his widow, should she become a widow, and at the same time contribute indirectly to taxation for a pension for a non-contributory widow, if it turns out in the end that the non-contributory widow is treated as well as the contributory widow and, in fact, is sometimes treated better. I ask the Minister to consider these two amendments in particular. There are other points in the Bill which can be dealt with better on the Committee Stage and in regard to which a Deputy would be in order in moving amendments. We can look after these, but I should like the Minister to consider the two amendments which I have mentioned.

I feel privileged to have had the opportunity of listening to the Minister explaining the terms of this Bill, which brings a great measure of solace to many people in this country. I congratulate Deputy Dr. Ryan for what I consider was a very able, fair and constructive criticism of the Bill. I find myself in very substantial agreement with Deputy Dr. Ryan in some of the points which he made, particularly on the matter which he stressed, that in some instances the non-contributory pensions will exceed the contributory. In most cases I find that the reverse is the case, but in at least two instances I find from the table before me that the non-contributory pension will exceed the contributory pension.

I propose to remedy that on the Committee Stage.

I am glad to hear the Minister say that because otherwise it would make for dissatisfaction amongst contributory widows. I was also glad to hear that the Minister proposes removing the anomaly under which certain citizens who had been removed outside the boundaries of the City of Cork to council houses, were penalised in legislation of this kind. That will be a notable concession and I hope it will be extended to people similarly situated on the outskirts of other boroughs. In making the improvement that was suggested to the Minister, another anomaly will be created that will call for attention. For many years a plea has been made in this House for people living in the environs of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford, who were city people, working in the city, mechanics, tradesmen and others, but who, because they were living outside the city boundary, were considered to be rural workers. They were registered in the exchanges as plumbers, electricians, fitters or railwaymen, but on the introduction of the period Order, because they lived outside the boundary line, their status was changed and they were disqualified from receiving a benefit under the period Order. Employment was available to them in the fields in the agricultural districts, but they are completely unsuitable for agricultural work. They have been suffering under these conditions and under the new proposals those people will still suffer from that anomaly. Their grievance will be added to by the fact that citizens like themselves who have been transferred from the borough to new housing schemes will be exempt from those Orders.

I am not in a position to suggest exactly how that position might be remedied. I have suggested before, and it might still be feasible, that the area around the four county boroughs might be extended for perhaps a mile and this would include all these persons who are now classed as rural workers but who are, in fact, city workers, those people who, owing to the exigencies of the housing shortage in recent years have been driven out of the cities, as apart from those people who have been brought out to new housing schemes. These people are suffering a hardship which should be brought to an end at the earliest possible date. On the other hand, the classification under which those persons are registered at the exchanges could be respected. Obviously, electricians or tailors cannot go out to seek work in the fields and if the farmers had any sense they would not allow them into the fields, they would set the dogs at them. These people are handicapped in that respect and while I welcome the provisions for these people who have been recently moved out, I would ask the Minister not to make the bitterness of these people to whom I have been referring more acute by seeing people come out to live beside them enjoying the benefits of this provision while they are excluded from it.

I would also be very happy if the proposal made by Deputy Dr. Ryan were given effect to. What it would cost, I do not know, but I would like to see a man with £1 a week given an old age pension. I do not agree with Deputy Dr. Ryan in one respect. I think he must have made a mistake or that his figures were wrong. I think an improvement has taken place. I am interested in the case of mechanics or other citizens who have for many years contributed to benevolent societies in order to make provision for their old age. The carpenters and other societies provide around 15/- a week and all these people were entitled to receive was 1/-. If I have the correct figures, such a person would be entitled to receive 10/- as long as he has not more than the maximum of £45. That is a good step forward, but it is not going sufficiently far in view of the depreciation in the value of money at the present time. I hope that as a result of the debates in this House on the interim measure, steps will be taken to introduce a further co-ordinated social security measure in the near future.

I am particularly grateful to the Minister for what he has done for the blind. I think that everybody will agree with me that they are the most deserving section of the community and that it is really unchristian to treat them in the same way as people who have not lost the gift of sight. I welcome the alteration in the means test for them. They are not a very considerable section of our community as they total roughly 7,000, and I think the Minister should have done a little more for them. I am not by any means satisfied that the last or the best has been done for the blind. I should go so far as to say that there should be no means test for the blind.

I do not know if Deputy Davin said what Deputy Dr. Ryan quoted—that we, the Labour Party, would give pensions without any means test—but I would advocate it in the case of the blind. People who have lost this great gift of God's grace should not be penalised like people who have sight. I am grateful to the Minister for what he has done for them, but I hope that when he has introduced a comprehensive social security scheme we will have our blind placed on a pedestal that will be a credit to this country, showing that we have respect for people who are suffering under that great disability. There is a lot to be done to bring our provisions for them in line with what has been done in other countries. As there are 7,000 blind people in the country, to disregard completely the means test would not cost the Exchequer very much more than to impose the means test in the final analysis. I hope that this measure is only a step towards a much more generous contribution for the blind when the comprehensive security scheme is brought in and I hope that it will not be too long delayed.

I do not wish to delay the House, except to congratulate the Minister on the steps which he is taking. While I would have liked to see Deputy Dr. Ryan dealing, not with the interim measure, but with a comprehensive scheme, I know at the same time that you must cut your coat according to your cloth. While I may have the idea of baking a beautiful cake, if I have not the ingredients, I have to make the best cake I can while I am waiting for the currants and raisins. When the ingredients are available, I know that the Minister will not Lesitate to come forward. Other countries have set us a headline and these countries have never had cause to regret making good provision for old people, widows and the blind. We have no reason to lag behind them and we should take the first available opportunity to put on the same plane as other countries the defenceless people of this country.

I would like to congratulate the Minister upon the speed with which he has been able to bring before the House this interim measure, as I gather it is. Some complaint has been made by Deputy Dr. Ryan that this was not a comprehensive scheme, but I have taken the trouble to parse and analyse this Bill very carefully. Take the part dealing with old age pensioners. The codification alone of that part of the Bill means dealing with no less than five different Acts of Parliament already in existence or part of the programme at the present time. I think, that the Minister has done a very good job indeed so soon after taking office and considering all the difficulties entailed in getting in touch with all these different Departments.

The only reason I have risen is to raise points which I think are very important ones in connection with the rural community. It concerns particularly old age pensioners, the means test on the old age pensioners and the mechanics of that means test in rural districts. The old age pensions code originated in the Act of 1908, which was a British measure. The Minister, in introducing it at the time, I think, largely had his eye upon the conditions which existed in Great Britain and in a large industrial community. He did not envisage the fact that a very large number of the recipients of old age pensions would be living in a different atmosphere and in different conditions from those which exist in large industrial countries.

What happens at present is that an old person residing on a smallish farm. when seeking an old age pension, is immediately met with the means test. and the sum to which he is entitled is decided by some fictitious figure which is placed upon the use and enjoyment of a small farm. There is no guide given to the person responsible for ascertaining the figure that has to be taken into consideration. The only clue to the matter lies, I think, in Section 2 of the 1911 Act, which was the first Act amending the 1908 Act. It is provided there that one of the matters that has to be taken into consideration is the yearly value of any advantage accruing to a person from the use or enjoyment of any property belonging to him.

It is under that that an inspector solemnly goes down to a small farm and says: "This farm is capable of earning so much." Assuming he is a complete purist and deals with the matter very fairly and in a balanced way, he takes into consideration the number of cattle, pigs, poultry, etc., and the general conditions of the farm. I submit that that is not a fair test because you will have the human element entering into it. You will have the question of everybody being dissatisfied. One man who has ten acres will find that he is supposed to have an income of £50 per year. Another man on a similar ten acres two or three parishes away is supposed to have an income of £5 per year. Everybody is going around saying: "One man had a pull and the other had not."

I should like to get away from that situation and there is one way in which it can be done. There is a code much older than the old age pensions code and which has stood the test of time. It is a code which is operating in favour of everybody in this State, and that is the income-tax code. Deputy Dr. Ryan mentioned that he should like to see this allowance based on annual value. That does exist in the income-tax code, when an assessment is made on the owner of land. Of course, in the case of a ten, 20 or 25- acre holding the question of payment of income-tax never arises, except the person has a block of shares in Córas Iompair Éireann, or in Guinness's, or something like that. The owner of such a holding does not have to make a return. But the method of assessment is there and is based either on the annual value or on the annuity, whichever is the lesser. If we had some standard form of that kind, I believe some system could be worked out which would operate in a fairer fashion and with less dissatisfaction.

I am not suggesting that the Minister should adopt the figures in the income-tax code, but he should, if possible, get a similar method of assessment based on the size of the holding, so that every person will know exactly where he is when he comes to look for his old age pension. It would remove a great deal of dissatisfaction which undoubtedly does exist to the knowledge of every Deputy in connection with the means test as applied in the rural community to persons in their old age who have spent their whole lives contributing to the wealth of the country on a small holding. I press upon the Minister the advisability of inquiring into that aspect of the matter. Of course, the question is only an academic one if, in the end, it is intended, as I gather it is intended, to abolish the means test. In the meantime, however, there will be a great deal of hardship caused. I know of several cases of persons who have been given a figure as their earning capacity or the value they receive from their holding which obviously does not bear any relation to the figures assessed for other people in the same parish or county. I wish the Minister every success in connection with this Bill and I congratulate him upon being able to bring it before the new Dáil so soon after taking over office as Minister for Social Welfare.

I should like to be in a position to offer congratulations to the Minister on this Bill if I felt that I could sincerely do so. When I hear or read statements made by back benchers of various Parties, I do not regard them as statements upon which I should place very great weight. But, when statements are made by Leaders of Parties, I always believe that I should place a certain amount of weight upon them and that a good deal of significance should attach to them. We have before us a Bill which, to me, is a very disappointing one, in view of the statements made in this House and outside it, disappointing because of the things left out rather than what it contains.

In 1946, I think it was, there was a motion moved here by Deputy Martin O'Sullivan of the Labour Party, seconded by Deputy Keyes, and spoken to by various members of the present Government. That motion asked the then Government to give 22/6 per week to old age pensioners at the age of 65 and that the income level be raised to £52 per year. Of course, in this Bill it is proposed to raise the level to £52, but 17/6 is very far away from 22/6, and 70 years very far away from 65 years.

The previous Government were castigated because they would not agree to that and asked the House to bear with them and give them an opportunity of fully investigating the position as to what amount this country could afford by way of social services and old age pensions. But, of course, their pleading would not be listened to. The position now is that the people who criticised them on that occasion are now very anxious that the present opposition should be very tolerant in their criticisms and that we should take into consideration what the country can reasonably afford by way of social services. I have no objection to their pleading in that way, but I think that when they plead, the individuals who are now Ministers—many of them with long experience in this House—should have been equally tolerant then. They should understand, too, that there was a limit to which the country could go and beyond which, in the particular circumstances and the conditions of the time, it could not go. It is very difficult to excuse a man with maturity in the public life of this country, such as the present Minister for Defence, making a statement in this House which, to look at things now, one must only conclude was made purely for Party political purposes. I quote from Volume 99 of the Official Report of the Dáil Debates, column 2067:—

"The motion before us asks that old age pensioners should be granted pensions at the rate of 22/6 a week, that pensions should be given at the age of 65 years, and that any net income not exceeding £52 yearly should not be taken into account. I do not believe that from any quarter of this House, or anywhere outside it, there would be any objection to the motion, except one objection, namely that the money is not available, or that the taxation that would have to be imposed in order to get the money would be entirely too severe for the backs of the people to bear. There was a time when I was impressed with that type of argument from a Government Front Bench, but that time has gone."

He proceeds to state that the pension should be given at 65 and he instanced that State policy as to when a man or woman is unfit any longer to be of service and unfit any longer to be in receipt of salary is 65 years of age. He continued:—

"When we come to the poor, when we come to the labouring man, the man working in the factory, on the roads, in the fields, the man who has to earn his livelihood, exposed to all the hardships of the weather for 12 months in the year, is it not reasonable to assert that the same age limit should apply, that that man should be regarded as past his work and deserving of a rest and leisure when he reaches the age of 65?"

That was stated on the 6th March, 1946. Apparently there is a change of heart in the Government now. I am not alleging that there is any change of heart on the part of the Minister for Social Welfare. I believe that he cannot carry his Cabinet with him and that, if he could, in all probability he would put into effect the terms of that motion. He has to deal with a Cabinet and with a Minister for Finance— Deputy McGilligan as he was then— who also spoke to that motion. In column 2279 of Volume 99 of the Official Report of the Dáil Debates he is reported as saying:—

"There are two main points I want to question on this motion. The first is this matter of the means test."

I am going to deal with the only one point to which he referred, because he went off on a kind of financial rampage, telling us about the value of money and so forth. However, let me quote from his speech as follows:—

"Since I began to think about this matter, I have never understood why there is a means test attached to this at all."

He went on to say that 16/- in 1946 was not worth any more than 8/- in 1939.

Deputy Everett, who is now the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, also urged the removal of the means test, and the present Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Norton as he was then, said:—

"The basic fact in connection with this motions is that it really asks for old age pensioners something less than what they are entitled to on the merits of the case."

That quotation will be found in column 2274 of the Official Report of the Dáil Debates, 8th March, 1946. He continued:—

"Back in 1908, an alien Government gave old age pensioners in this country a pension of 5/- per week; in 1916 that pension was increased to 10/- per week; and in 1946, 30 years later, that pension is still 10/- per week. But it takes in 1946 approximately 25/- to buy what 10/- bought in 1916...."

It is a great disappointment to me that Deputies as they then were and Minister as they are to-day can be so very versatile and elastic when they change over from opposition to Government. I suppose that that is politics, but I look upon it as being politics of a rather deceptive kind. It would be better if the Parties in this House—and I believe that every Party and every man elected to this House has an interest in the people—came to an understanding and discussed things calmly and dispassionately and on non-Party lines, without playing up to the weaker instincts of our people, in order to ascertain what it is possible for the country to contribute towards the aged and the infirm and the other people belonging to the weaker sections of the community. The income level has been raised to £52 per year.

I was listening to Deputy Sir John Esmonde while he was speaking and I agree with him that there are certain machanics in this assessment of means. That is the danger I fear in this Bill, the mechanisation of the assessment of means, particularly as it affects rural Ireland. I believe that this Bill as far as the urban areas are concerned is an advance because of the cash income. I believe that that cash income as it was calculated in the past was in itself detrimental and was most unfair to the cash income earners of the towns and cities. But it is quite another matter when one deals with the rural areas. We had previously an income of £39 5s. We had means assessed on a more or less zonal or regional basis in regard to live stock. I want to know from the Minister if it is proposed to leave the assessment values as they are. If it is not proposed to leave them as they are and if it is proposed to increase them in accordance with the increase in the price of live stock since 1939, then this Bill is not one which will confer any great benefit upon the applicants in the rural areas. I do not say that I am competent to interpret the sections of a Bill in the way in which the draftsman, the barrister, or even the Minister might be. There is a section in this Bill which reads rather strangely to me. It is Section 13. In that section there is both an admission and an implication.

"No person, who was, immediately before the 7th day of January, 1949, in receipt of a pension and a supplement thereto under the Order of 1947, shall, if he continues to be entitled to such pension after the 6th day of January, 1949, receive less by way of pension than he would have received if this Act had not been passed and the Order of 1947 had continued in force."

I suppose a number of things might be read into that. Perhaps I am not interpreting it in the right way or in the way the Minister wishes to convey it. On the one hand, there is an admission that a number of those supposedly very hard pressed people throughout the country have improved their means considerably and that, if this new Act was applied to them in the way that it was intended to apply it to claimants who make application subsequent to the passage of the Act, instead of their pensions remaining as they are or being increased, their position will be very much worsened. On the other hand, the implication is there that this is a safeguarding section—a good political section, if I read it correctly, because, if their claims are to be investigated and it is found the value of the means has increased, they will be reduced in their pension rather than increased. I know very well that that would be anything but popular in the country. A great many of them will say: "Why did they not leave us as we were?"

Perhaps the Deputy would like me to clear up the point now because he may be followed by other speakers labouring under a similar misapprehension. Under Section 13 there is provision whereby nobody is to lose any pension, or scale of pension, which he at present has if his present scale is higher than the proposed new scale. Section 13 deals with a specific situation. There are a number of old age pensioners of 70 or more years who have children not over 16 years of age. In the past these old age pensioners got cash supplements in respect of these children. These cash supplements are now being merged in the pension proper and there is a standard pension for everybody of a maximum of 17/6 per week. Some persons with their basic pension and cash supplement where they have children not over 16 years of age are getting in some instances something more than 17/6 a week. But out of the 150,000 old age pensioners there is only something over 100 affected by Section 13. It is a condition of affairs which will obviously alter because both the old age pensioner and the children will continue to grow older. In any case that difficulty will resolve itself in ordinary circumstances. This section is designed to ensure that there will be no reduction for anybody under the provisions of this Bill and the specific provision is inserted specially to deal with these rather unusual cases.

I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. That is nothing new, of course. That applied in national health benefit cases before. I think in some cases some of the recipients lost because of some new scheme that was put through. There were instances where a reduction was brought about.

My main concern is to find out what can be done by regulation and what by statute. The amount of pension is fixed by statute. The calculation of the means is fixed by regulations made, in the first instance, by the Minister for Social Welfare and, in the second, ratified or disapproved of by the Minister for Finance is satisfied that it will not prove too big a drain on his Department. I know parts of the country at the present time where the value assessed on a cow is £4 per year and on a dozen fowl £1 per year. If the value of the cow is going to be increased from £4 to £7 and if the value of the dozen fowl is going to be increased from £1 to £2 per year—and that is more than likely in view of the great hopes held out for the country by the Minister for Agriculture as to the benefit to be derived by the country from poultry in the future—it is difficult to see where the benefit will come in. There are numerous people who on the present income assessment would benefit under the existing code but who would find themselves very much worse off under the new code if means values are increased. I would like the Minister to give us a clear indication of the position when he is replying.

There are no proposals in the Bill to alter the method of calculating means.

I quite understand that. They never were in any Bill. They were always made by regulation. That is where the difficulty comes in in most Bills. That is where the danger arises. It is easy for a Government to come before the House with a plausible measure, but, in the main, it is the regulations made under that measure that count.

But there are no regulations made about the means test by any Minister.

There must certainly have been some basis of calculation, and I am sure nobody understands that better than the Minister for Social Welfare. He understands quite well that the investigation officers down the country are the investigation officers of the Department of Finance, and that the assistance officers in his Department are his officers. He also understands, I am sure, that if the Department of Local Government agreed to the assessment values placed on live stock, on crops and various other things by the officials of the Department of Finance, were it not for the fact that there was the neutralising effect of the assessing officers in his Department, the old age pensioners in the past—and what happened in the past I expect will continue in the future—would be in receipt of far lower pensions. That would be the position had the calculations and estimates of the investigation officers been rigidly adhered to. There are a number of anomalies, of course, that were in the old Act and that are still in this. I do not propose going into these. I expect the Minister will try to iron them out when he is bringing in his comprehensive scheme.

I see in the table to Section 12 the rates of orphans' contributory pensions. A child resident in an urban area where the person, in respect of whose insurance the pension is payable, was not an agricultural worker, has a weekly rate of pension of 10/-. A child resident in an urban area where the person, in respect of whose insurance the pension is payable, was an agricultural worker, has a weekly rate of pension of 8/6. A child resident in a rural area where the person, in respect of whose insurance the pension is payable, was not an agricultural worker, has a weekly pension of 9/-, and a child resident in a rural area where the person in respect of whose insurance the pension is payable was an agricultural worker, has a weekly pension of 7/6. In view of the lip sympathy paid to the agricultural worker from many sides of the House, it is difficult to understand why that difference is there. It is very difficult to understand why, in the case of a man who milks Deputy Madden's or Deputy Corry's cow, his child, when he is an orphan, will get less than the child of some person working for a local authority. I think something should be done to place them on an equal footing.

You appreciate that he pays less in contributions?

He pays less in contributions, but it would be very interesting if we could calculate what more he has paid in real service to the community.

It was your Government put this in.

You ought to change it.

That is no excuse at all.

It is not a reason for you to complain.

The Minister was always an adept at finding fault and picking holes in things done by the previous Government. Now he is in a position to do things and it is up to him to do them. There were certain statements lavishly made in this House —I do not mind statements outside the House—and they deserve a reply. This Bill is to me very disappointing. I thought the rate of pension would be greater than 17/6. I believed that the income level would be raised above £52 per year. That increase represents an advance of only 33? per cent. We have heard a lot about the increase in the cost of living. I have read certain cases where the claims of workers for an increase of pay were advocated before the Labour Court. It was not on a 33? basis they were advocated. In most cases they were advocated on the basis of an 80 per cent. increase in the cost of living. Consequently, I am disappointed in this increase and the people to whom the false hopes were held out will be more than disappointed.

I hope we are coming down to something concrete in this House from all Parties. I hope Deputies will address themselves to this measure in a sane and sensible manner, and that they will not hold out vain hopes for the future. I hope they will speak to this Bill in a manner that will make it quite clear to all and sundry that this country is capable of going a certain distance as far as social services are concerned, but until there is a very big change nationally and internationally it is futile to be advocating a Utopia for them, such as was advocated by the people who now form the inter-Party Government, when they were in opposition here.

It is very interesting and ironical and sometimes downright amusing to listen to the speeches of Deputies who are now in opposition. They tell the Minister what he should do with this Bill. They had an excellent opportunity to put their ideas into effect. It is very late in the day now to talk about what should be done.

Does the Deputy know what was done?

I have a fairly good idea —there was not very much done.

Millions were devoted to the improvement of social services.

I am pleased to hear from the Minister that this Bill is merely an intermediate measure and we are on the road to a more realistic approach to a solution of the problem of social insurance. Like Deputy Keyes, I do not feel that this measure meets the demands of the people who need protection by way of social insurance to the full, and I am quite certain the Minister shares that feeling. There have been many statements made in the House concerning the desirability of social security. There have been arguments for more comprehensive schemes, but one or two Deputies, such as Deputy Beegan, seem inclined towards the view that this country cannot afford any extensive schemes of social security. There is a general feeling among Irish workers that they want to make as little demand as possible upon the State or charity. They do not want charity. If the workers are given fair wages and decent working conditions, we in this House need have no worry whatsoever concerning what their attitude will be to a contributory comprehensive social security scheme. I think that if these fair wages and these conditions were established they would not baulk at contributing even to a substantial extent to a full scheme of social security.

This temporary measure, it seems to me, requires some thought. I am sorry to see that it contains no proposals to increase maternity or marriage allowance under the National Health Insurance Society. I would ask the Minister to consider the possibility of introducing an amendment in this connection on the Committee Stage. The absence of an improvement in the present allowances, and the relation of the increases in contribution to the benefit increases provided, indicate to me at any rate that the Department's experts, whatever the views of the Minister, still seem to incline in the direction of an accummulation of reserves and are still loath or unwilling to place this code on an income and expenditure basis with reasonable reserves. I know that the Minister in the past has expressed his disapproval of the huge reserves that have been accumulated, particularly the many millions in the National Health Insurance Fund. I think that some portion of these funds should be allocated under this Bill to increase the benefits that I have mentioned, the maternity and marriage allowances, by, say, at least 50 per cent.

In the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Social Welfare. I referred to the dissatisfaction that exists amongst insured people with regard to the administrative machinery of insurance. There are very many vexatious delays, in some cases demoralising delays, before the first payments are made, particularly in the case of national health insurance payments. A man is at least a fortnight ill before he receives any payment. This is something which does not require any legislation. It is purely administrative, I consider, and should receive the attention of the Minister. Benefits such as those in all cases should be so administered as to ensure a continuity of payments for the worker even though the payments which are made are considerably less than the worker would receive were he in employment.

I think, too, that the agency system and method of payment of the National Health Insurance Society should be overhauled. This is also a matter which does not require separate legislation and I raise it on this Bill because it is essential, when we are discussing social welfare, to discuss every possible step to ensure that the improvements which are being brought about in the Bill will not be nullified by some of the red tape methods that now operate in respect of payments under these different schemes. I consider that the agent of the National Health Insuragent Society should be in a position to deal with claims and to make payments without reference to the head office.

Of course, when this matter is considered, we come against the question of the treatment of agents. In many cases agents of the National Health Insurance Society are scandalously treated. I know an instance in my own area of an agent of the National Health Insurance Society whose remuneration at the moment is nothing more than 15 per cent. over his 1938 rate. There are cases of agents receiving no more than 10/- per week. In order to administer this fund and the distribution of these benefits properly, it seems to me that the whole internal organisation of the National Health Insurance Society will need to be thoroughly overhauled. I am given to understand that this problem of the present method of administration of the National Health Insurance Society is due to an attempt to maintain the cost of administration of national health insurance at a figure which was fixed per capita in 1922. The effort is to maintain administration on the basis of that figure.

Earlier during the present year, thanks to the good offices of the Minister, a dispute which lasted a fairly considerable time between the employees of the National Health Insurance Society and the Society itself, was terminated but unfortunately there are still a large number of anomalies in respect to employment so far as these workers are concerned. If I am in order, and I trust I am, in mentioning the matter on this Bill, I would ask the Minister to give some further attention to the consideration of this question and to put into effect, so far as he can, the recommendation of the Labour Court in respect to the workers employed by the National Health Society so that we may secure a more efficient administration of the provisions of this Bill when it comes into law.

Deputy Beegan in the course of his remarks referred to statements which were made by supporters and members of the present Government. Of course, if we were to take the trouble to examine the file of statements which were made prior to 1931, we would come across some very interesting passages, dealing with old age pensions, the means test, unemployment and such things as that.

Deputy Beegan stated that 17/6 per week was far from 22/6 a week, which was the sum mentioned in the proposal brought before the House last year, but if 17/6 is very far from 22/6, it is equally the same distance from 12/6 and, therefore, Deputy Beegan on his own line of argument would have to admit that this sum of 5/- increase represents a not inconsiderable improvement in what was formerly given. Let me say that I do not accept or believe that 17/6 a week is in any way adequate for an old age pensioner. I am quite satisfied that the Minister does not accept that either. Our aim and our endeavour, not alone of one Party or of the members of the Government, but of all Parties in this House, should be united upon the object of giving to the old people and the most helpless people, the sightless, the maximum that can be given to them, for if there is one subject on which agreement could be found it is this. Deputy Beegan, however, made some very simple appeals to the Deputies in this House not to approach these subjects on Party lines, but, of course, if that were to be made effective, the people it should be applied to are the members of Deputy Beegan's own Party, who, I think, approach every single matter on purely Party lines.

I also wish to mention that I regret that the Minister has not taken this opportunity of extending the benefit of the Unemployment Benefit Act and the Unemployment Assistance Act to workers engaged in agriculture. These workers are discriminated against and they have been discriminated against for a long number of years in this connection. I trust sincerely that when the White Paper appears and when we have more details of the comprehensive scheme, these workers will be included in that scheme.

Finally, I want to say that despite my general dissatisfaction with the inadequacies of the measure, I do think that it is a tribute to the present Minister, to say that within the short period of five months he has succeeded in putting £2,500,000 more into the pockets of the most deserving of our people than would have been the case if there had not been a change in the political situation in this country.

Any Minister producing a Bill for the extension of our social security services can be certain of two things: first, the Bill will be accepted by the Dáil and second, many Deputies will urge that it does not go far enough. It might not be altogether true to say that nobody is against the extension of our social security services. Probably some people are against it. I think the Minister for Finance made references to these social services recently which suggested some degree of opposition to them on financial grounds.

He suggested increases in the old age pensions.

I think that he spoke strongly against the general idea of extending these services.

He suggested——

The Deputy is in possession and must be allowed to speak.

If there is any suggestion that I am misrepresenting the Minister for Finance, I would be very anxious to have it made clear, but I thought that his views were so clearly expressed that they could not be misrepresented.

You misrepresented his view.

He spoke of social services as a form of charity and expressed his disapproval of political Parties seeking the support of the electorate by promising to improve them. During the course of the debate upon the Budget and subsequently in an article which he published in a British financial journal, he expressed the view very strongly that the extension of these services should follow and not precede the expansion of the national income through increased production. I have heard another view against the extension of social services expressed by a former Senator who is now President of University College, Dublin, on grounds other than financial, which I thought contained a great deal of sense, although I disagreed with his general conclusion. However, the point I am trying to establish is that any measure brought in here for the extension of these services is not likely to be opposed and the great majority of Deputies, the great majority of citizens, will welcome it.

I have had on many occasions in the past the experience which the present Minister for Social Welfare is having now, a Bill which was prepared to improve social services to the limit considered practicable in the circumstances prevailing being welcomed in the Dáil by Deputies who expressed the view, as many Deputies have expressed the view this evening, that it does not go far enough. All debate upon the extension of social services here turns, not upon the desirability of extending them, but upon the limits to which it is practicable to go in various economic conditions. The present Minister for Social Welfare has now realised what he was told on many occasions in the past, that the onus of indicating the limitation imposed by general economic and financial conditions on the extension of social services rests upon the Government. If at any time the spokesman of the Government in office comes to the Dáil to say that in the considered opinion of the Cabinet general economic and financial circumstances justify extended social services, proposals to that effect will not be opposed in the Dáil. The pressure in the Dáil is always in favour of further extension and the duty of imposing brakes upon the realisation of the desire of Deputies rests upon the Government, and the stage at which they apply the brakes has to be judged by them on the basis of a general review of prevailing conditions and future trends. We have in the past expressed the view that the extension of social services which we desire should be effected, as the resources of the nation are expanded to sustain them until we had here a reasonable system of protection for our citizens against undeserved want arising from involuntary unemployment, sickness, accident, old age, widowhood or orphanhood.

The Fianna Fáil Government was never satisfied that the system of protection against these risks was adequate and it was planning to extend them in this year. But for the upset resulting from the change of Government, I think that a far more extensive reorganisation of these services would now be under discussion by the Dáil than the extension proposed in this Bill. The point I want to make is, however, that no matter what Government is in office, it must never be satisfied with the adequacy of the system of protection against social evils in operation at the time. If a Government gets satisfied, then it is failing in its duty, until we have completely eradicated from the life of the nation undeserved want arising from these causes. The present Minister puts forward a Bill to effect the improvement in social services that his Government considers practicable at this moment. He tells us he is not satisfied that he is going far enough. When he comes forward later with further proposals to extend the social services, presumably he will say the same thing. On every occasion upon which Fianna Fáil Ministers came here with proposals to inaugurate a new service or to extend an existing service they expressed that view. They stated: "This is the limit to which we think it is practicable to go in present circumstances, with the present level of national production and the present level of national income. We are proposing to go that far and we hope that improving conditions in future will make it possible to go further."

I can speak with some experience in this matter. Deputy Dunne said we did not do much. Personally, I had in past years the responsibility of framing, submitting to the Dáil, and piloting through the Dáil some major measures relating to social services. We inaugurated the unemployment assistance scheme. Some Deputies may not even remember that before Fianna Fáil came into office there was no unemployment assistance scheme. We codified the workmen's compensation legislation, and that was also my responsibility. I framed and secured the enactments here of the children's allowances scheme. As a members of the Government, I was associated with the reorganisation and extension of the old age pensions scheme, the extension of the blind persons' pension scheme, the complete reorganisation of the national health insurance arrangement and the inauguration of the widows' and orphans' pensions scheme. We do not think that that is a bad record, having regard to the circumstances prevailing during our term of office. For the first five years we were fighting the economic war, which, whatever its origin, undoubtedly diminished the national resources or the capacity to fight against these social evils. For the last five years there was the world war which upset our whole economy. Having regard to all the circumstances of the time, we think that is a very proud record which we left behind us and a very high standard which we set for our successors. Deputy Dunne says we did not do much. I say that we did more in that period than any other Government in the world in the extension of social services.

I am not referring to that matter, however, merely for the sake of praising the Fianna Fáil Government. I want to get, if possible, established here as an agreed principle that the extension of social security services is the aim of all Parties in this House; that we recognise that that extension must to some extent keep step with the development of national production and the rise of the national income; that we never want to see in office here a Government which is satisfied with the level of social services at any time; that the aim will be ultimately to establish a comprehensive social code which will ensure protection for our people against undeserved want arising from those causes to which I have referred—involuntary unemployment, accident or sickness, old age, widowhood and orphanhood.

We had hoped to have had the privilege of introducing in the Dáil this year a comprehensive social security code based upon insurance principles. The present Government consider that it is not practicable to produce that code now, although we are assured that they are aiming to produce it later. Therefore, they have brought forward a Bill designed to effect, in part, some interim improvements in social services and, in part, to effect some disimprovements in social services. Deputies must not speak of this Bill as if its sole purpose was to increase old age pensions or non-contributory widows' and orphans' pensions. A very large part of it is designed to make all manual workers and clerical workers earning under £500 a year contribute a tax for the relief of the Exchequer in the provision of cash supplements under the various existing social service schemes.

I do not know if the Minister, when he spoke about the total amount of money which this Bill will involve in the payment of additional benefits, is prepared to put against that amount the additional sums which the workers will have to pay in order to secure benefits under the various schemes at the same rate at which they are now being paid. Under the national health insurance scheme and the unemployment insurance scheme, this Bill proposes that there shall be no increase in the benefits now payable, but that the increase in these benefits affected last year and paid for last year by the general taxpayer through the Exchequer will in future be paid by the manual workers and the clerical workers earning under £500 per year, and by nobody else.

Why does the Deputy say by nobody else.

Is not that the proposal?

Not at all; read the Bill.

The Minister can explain the difference between the Bill and what I said.

Will the employer not pay, and will the State not pay?

The State will pay two-ninths of the cost.

Why do you say the manual workers only will pay?

The main proposal is to recover from the worker and his employer the money which in the past was provided by the Exchequer for the purpose of these payments.

That is rather different from what you said at first.

I accept the correction. The employer also has to pay.

And the State.

Consequently. the ability of the employer to continue or to extend his employment is diminished somewhat on that account. I do not know if Deputies opposite have considered the general question of the extent to which the cost of these social services should be borne by the beneficiaries under them or by the general taxpayers. We debated this question in Fianna Fáil on the occasion of the introduction of the children's allowances scheme. It is simple to describe the method of collecting contributions from prospective beneficiaries under these schemes as introducing an insurance principle. The insurance principle can be extended so far as to become unrecognisable. When a person insures his house against fires, it is practicable for him to do so at a low rate, because a very large number of people are also insuring their houses against fires which will never occur. We buy insurance cheaply against these risks because the risks are spread over a large number of people and it will be found that a number of them will pay for protection against a risk that will never develop. The risk of unemployment is in that category. A very large number of workers will pay contributions, but will never experience unemployment or will never draw from the unemployment insurance fund an amount equivalent to what they put into it. The risk of accident or of ill-health is similar. There is no similarity, however, when one considers the question of old age. Everybody will ultimately grow old except those who die and who, therefore, will not claim under any social security system. The risk of widowhood and orphanhood is somewhat different. Ultimately, the breadwinner in every family will die, but possibly the risk will be slower in materialising in some cases than in others.

The problem we had to discuss when preparing the children's allowances scheme was whether the begetting of children was to be regarded as a normal risk which would justify the payment of help, where required, out of the general fund of the community or a risk which could be avoided—a risk to which the insurance principle would apply. We decided in that case that the insurance principle did not apply and the widows' and orphans' scheme was financed out of the general funds of the State. How far are we going to go in the extension of this so-called "insurance principle" in our social security services? Is it really justifiable to talk of insuring against old age? Is it really justifiable to collect from certain classes of people contributions over a long period of their lives so that they can be paid a higher old age pension at an earlier age than is provided for under existing law or is it not more practical and more justifiable in theory to defray the cost of these forms of assistance to the public out of the general resources of the community levied through taxation and discharged through the Exchequer. The Government has, I think, not given this matter very great consideration.

It seems to me that the farther we go in the extension of social services in this country, having regard to the rather unusual conditions prevailing here, the more inevitable it is that we must get away from the insurance principle and defray the cost of the social services through general taxation. We have a rather unusual type of economic organisation in that a very high proportion of our total occupied population is self-employed. It is easy to operate the so-called "insurance principle" in relation to workers who are employed for wages, whose periods of employment are known, whose wages are known, and from whom the collection of contributions constitutes no administrative problem. The application of the so-called "insurance principle" to self-employed people is administratively impracticable. We have these self-employed people constituting a much higher proportion of our occupied population than in Great Britain or other highly-industrialised countries. It is, however, inconceivable that the Dáil would agree to confine the extension of social services where they take the form of payments against old age or against ill-health or against widowhood and so forth to the section of our population that is employed for wages and deny benefits to other sections which are self-employed and whose need for them is equally great. Therefore, any system of social security, based upon the insurance principle, has to be linked with another which does not involve contributions just as the widows' and orphans' pensions code contains both the contributory and the non-contributory schemes. The further we go in the extension of social security the more practicable and the more justifiable it will be to drop the insurance principle and to defray the cost out of total taxation. That is a problem, but it is mainly a political problem.

The previous Government had to follow up every extension of social security—the inauguration of unemployment assistance, of widows' and orphans' pensions, of children's allowances—with increases in taxation, and these increases in taxation were a political burden which we had to carry. Some Deputies opposite think it was the ultimate effect of these accumulating increases in taxation that put us out of office. This Government, if it is doing its duty in this matter—and believing that increases in social services are necessary and being anxious to provide them, if necessary, by increases in taxation—will have to face the risk that it will also accumulate a certain measure of unpopularity which will count against it in an election. A Government that plays for popularity all the time will do very little. Therefore, if you are going to carry through a programme of social security of the kind that has been suggested you cannot dodge the obligation of imposing taxation by the adoption of devices such as are contained in this Bill or by talking glibly about the insurance principle.

I have no objection at all to the Minister introducing an interim measure for the improvement of some social services if he tells me that it is impractical to proceed with a more comprehensive plan, unless that interim measure is going to make more difficult eventually the enactment of the comprehensive plan. This device of transferring the cost of the additional cash benefits from the contributors under the national health and unemployment insurance schemes is, whatever immediate relief it may bring to the Exchequer, an impediment to the ultimate enactment of a comprehensive scheme of the kind I should like to see. If that comprehensive scheme is going to be based upon the so-called "insurance principle" and involve further and very heavy increases in contributions, then the Government may be deterred by the size of the contributions involved from going as far as I think is necessary and as far as I should like to see it go.

Was your own plan based on the continuance of the insurance scheme?

Certainly. The comprehensive plan we were considering was based largely on the insurance principle but it did not involve relieving the Exchequer of one penny of the amount provided in this year's Estimates for social services as a whole. We contemplated that the burden of the comprehensive scheme on the Exchequer would involve an increase in the total provision for all social services. The Minister is giving the Exchequer immediate relief in a manner which is going to make more difficult the operation of a larger scheme on the insurance principle. On the other hand, of course, it is possible that the Minister for Finance is getting relief this year and is not counting on it next year and that the Government will take credit next year for giving back the £1,000,000 per year which has been collected from workers and employers under the provisions of this Bill.

And the State will pay two-ninths.

Perhaps the Minister will tell me how much exactly it is anticipated the workers and the employers will pay in consequence of the provisions of this Bill. The total contribution payable by workers is being increased from 1/3 per week to 1/9 per week. There is an extra 6d. per week payable by every worker in respect of every week's employment he has during the year. I am by no means sure that this adherence to the so-called insurance principle is not merely a financial device to relieve the Exchequer and I am becoming increasingly doubtful as to its justification. Why should one section of the people have to pay and pay substantially to get benefits which are in some cases not greater than those conferred upon other people who do not have to pay. I can understand the Minister saying it is necessary for us to have a certain measure of assistance against want arising from widowhood, or orphanhood, or illness; and, as the total cost of providing that assistance will amount to so many million pounds, the community as a whole must provide that sum of money so that the protection can be afforded. But that is not what he is saying. He has not asked the community as a whole—not the class of people who are here in this Dáil, not the income-tax payers, not the shopkeepers, not the farmers—but a specific class, namely, manual workers of all kinds and clerical workers under £500 a year, who must pay and pay individually although they can get under these schemes no greater benefit, or benefits only very slightly greater than those which will be given to an almost equal number of people who will not be asked to contribute. There are obvious anomalies there.

I think the Minister sees that it is undesirable to keep the contributory widows' and orphans' pensions so low in relation to the non-contributory pensions. That is what is proposed here. He realises that it was an error in the Bill to have provided in one case that the non-contributory pension would, in fact, he higher than the contributory pension—a case so glaringly wrong that it would be clearly in the interests of a woman who was informed by a doctor that her husband was going to die, and who had no means, to lapse her husband's insurance payments because by so doing she would get a higher pension under the non-contributory scheme, as proposed here, than under the contributory scheme. The Minister has seen that error and is going to remedy the Bill in that regard. Generally speaking, the whole level of contributory pensions is low in relation to the proposed level of non-contributory pensions having regard to the fact that one set of beneficiaries must pay a substantial sum per week to secure them and the other set of beneficiaries pays nothing at all.

I am anxious that Deputies on the Government side would get their minds clear on this question of the means test. I introduced the children's allowances scheme here without a means test and when the Bill was before the Dáil approval of that aspect of it was expressed by all Parties. It is quite true it was a simple thing to do in relation to that Bill, because by an adjustment of the income-tax code we were, in fact, able to take back from income-tax payers exactly the amount that they would receive under the children's allowances scheme. Judge of my astonishment to read during the election campaign speeches of many Deputies now on the Government benches criticising the previous Government because that Act did not contain a means test and because under that Act children's allowances were payable to the millionaire in the same way as they were payable to the worker.

Deputies who made that criticism of the Fianna Fáil Administration, often illogically enough, denounced the means test under other social security codes. I am not clear what their point of view is. I should say that the case against the application of the means test under any social security scheme financed out of general taxation is a purely technical one. If you can get rid of it without adding to the cost of the scheme and, by getting rid of it, simplify administration, then the case is for getting rid of it. But the case in logic for the maintenance of a means test in such schemes is unanswerable. When you have a system of help given to people in need, a system which is financed out of general taxation, the question arises as to what, in fact, is happening. The State, representing the community as a whole, is going out to individual citizens—to the worker in employment, to the shopkeeper and to the farmer—and is making them contribute in taxation a sum of money which will be given out to other people. What justification has the State for taking money from one citizen to give it to another? It has one justification and one justification only—namely, that that other citizen who benefits under the scheme is in need of it and is in need through no fault of his own. That is the justification for the means test, because unless the State is prepared to demonstrate that the view that the beneficiary under the scheme is in need, then there is surely no justification for taking one person's money to give it to another. But if there is need, then that need should be capable of proof and, while we may have different ideas as to what the measure of need is that justifies State assistance and different views as to the manner in which the need should be demonstrated, nevertheless in the case of any social security system financed out of general taxation there should be some evidence of need before the State is justified in taking money from one person in order to give it to another. That is the case for the means test. The means test is, in fact, little more than evidence of the existence of need to justify the State in taking money from some citizen to give it to others. How far should we go on that? We are now going to have old age pensions at 17/6 a week. Does the Minister for Social Welfare think that it is practicable for an old age pensioner to live on 17/6 a week? I have heard that question asked by the present Minister for Social Welfare and many of his colleagues on numerous occasions in the past. When the old age pension was 10/- a week we were asked did we think it was practicable for an old age pensioner to live on 10/- a week. When it was 15/- the question was framed in relation to that amount. We are now bringing in an old age pension of 17/6 a week. Does the Minister think it is possible for a person with no means to live on 17/6 a week?

I think it is. I think he is better off on the 17/6 we will give him than on the 12/6 you gave him.

Is he better off on 17/6 now than on 10/- in 1938. Is not the answer to that question "No; we do not think it is possible for an old age pensioner to live on 17/6 a week"? That is the answer to the question and that is the answer which we gave in the past when the same question was addressed to us. We regarded it as an obligation on the State to give assistance to an old age pensioner to enable him to supplement whatever help he got from relatives in order to maintain himself if circumstances during his working life made it impossible for him to provide against his old age. I am sure the Minister will not attempt to justify 17/6 a week as representing an adequate standard of living where there are no other means. But he no more likes the question being put to him in that form that I liked it being put to me in the same form when I was Minister. He has got to accept it now. Perhaps, it will lead to a clearer realisation by this Dáil than was possible in previous Dáil as to what the State has to do under these various social security schemes. It has to attempt within the limit of its resources to assist people who need help, recognising that we cannot give them all the help we would like to give, because our resources do not permit of it; and that the expansion of such help has got to wait somehow until we can expand our resources.

I want to say something now about the means test in so far as it will continue to apply to old age pensioners. Deputy Dr. Ryan said that it would have been better to have raised the means test at the bottom rather than at the top. Let me be quite clear that neither I nor Dr. Ryan are objecting to the means test being raised at the top. It is quite obvious that the decline in money values necessitates a revision of the upward limit of means under which a person can qualify for old age pension. That was reduced by the Cumann na nGaedheal Government to the £39 level in 1924 and that blunder of theirs has never been rectified since. It is time it was rectified. In the past as Minister for Industry and Commerce, and in another capacity since, I came up against the problem which the existing old age pension code gives rise to in relation to employers and industrial workers. Take the case of Córas Iompair Éireann who have a pension scheme for their employees.

Leaving aside the complication of the cash supplement and examining the position on the pre-war basis, when the old age pension was 10/- a week, the effect of the old age pensions code was to make it impossible for an employer to give his worker, when he reached 70 years, a pension in excess of 6/- a week. If he gave beyond 6/- a week the old age pension was reduced accordingly. The pre-war Córas Iompair Éireann pensions scheme provided for 16/- a week from 65 to 70, reduced to 6/- when the worker reached 70, and nothing that Córas Iompair Éireann could do would enable them to continue to give him 16/- a week, because if they gave more than 6/- the State reduced the old age pension by a corresponding sum, so that unless the company was prepared to pay the whole of the old age pension. In addition to the excess over 16/- which they wanted to provide, they could not achieve it because the cost would be beyond their resources.

I have always felt that that situation is due to a blunder in the Old Age Pensions Act. There may be some idea that the Exchequer saves by the operation of the means test in that way. It does not, because in practice every industrial pensions scheme takes cognisance of the fact that the old age pension will be payable at 70 and provides for the reduction of the industrial pension by the amount of the old age pension at that stage. Therefore, the State is not gaining. If they made an arrangement under which the amount of the old age pension would still be payable, whether direct to the beneficiary or through the industrial pension fund, it would cost them nothing, but it would make it possible for employers of industrial workers to give higher pensions than are at present payable.

If the Minister is really anxious to get rid of the anomalies resulting from the means test so far as industrial workers are concerned, he can do so far more effectively by tackling the means test at the bottom, by raising the amount of pension payable irrespective of means, than in the manner proposed in the Bill. So far as small farmers and people who are assessed, with means because of their ownership of land or farm animals are concerned, the operation of the means test is almost entirely a matter for administrative arrangement.

I suggested earlier in the Dáil that the Government could increase the old age pension by making an Order providing for an increase of 2/6 a week to every old age pensioner, and that it could be done within six weeks. The Minister, however, is choosing to go about the task of increasing the pension in a far more elaborate way, involving elaborate schedules in this Bill and involving the reassessment of the means in every case, the calling in of the pension books and the postponement of the payment of the increased pension to next January. Why is that necessary? It is true that, to achieve the whole of the purpose which the Minister professes to have in mind, it would be necessary to go further than to provide 2/6 more to each pensioner, because there will be some number of new claimants in consequence of the revision of the means test, some number who will now become entitled to a pension of 5/-. But, am I right in saying that so far as existing pensioners are concerned, the only difference between giving an all-round increase of 2/6 a week and what the Minister proposes, is that, under the Bill, some pensioners will get less than 2/6 of an increase?

Is there any other reason for all these elaborate provisions in the Bill? All this reassessment of means by pensions officers and the postponement of the operation of the increased pension until January is not necessary except to ensure that some existing pensioners will get less than 2/6 a week. I do not see any other result follows from the adoption of this elaborate arrangement in preference to the simple one of saying that every person getting an old age pension now will in future get it plus 2/6 more. As this is only a stop-gap measure until a more permanent scheme is devised, would not my proposal be just as effective, having this advantage, that it could be brought into operation before the end of August instead of at the end of December?

It could have been brought into operation in January last as well.

As Deputy Dr. Ryan informed the Minister, the previous Government took a decision early in February, 1947, to increase the old age pensions, national health insurance benefits, widows' and orphans' pensions and unemployment assistance payments and all the people concerned, with very few exceptions, drew the increased payments before the 1st April. Certain beneficiaries received the amounts due them in arrears. If the Minister wanted to do it he could have done it just as expeditiously.

This is a better and more costly scheme.

I can see that the raising of the means limit from £39 to £52 means that there will be a number of people entitled to pensions of 5/- who are not now entitled to pensions, but as far as existing pensioners are concerned, what difference is there between the Minister's scheme and the device I have proposed except that in the Minister's scheme some, not very many, will get less than 2/6 a week.

That is not so.

I think that is quite clear from the Minister's explanatory paper.

Only in certain cases, not 200 out of 150,000.

The smaller the Minister makes the number, the stronger my argument. The only difference between my device and the Minister's is that these 200 people will get less than 2/6 a week. If there is any other difference will the Minister explain it?

We propose to give a lot of these people 5/-.

May I express my very strong disapproval of the action of the Minister in agreeing to the proposed raid upon the unemployment insurance and national health funds? Is there any other justification for the proposal that these cash supplements paid from the 1st July to the date on which this Bill comes into operation must be refunded to the Exchequer out of these funds other than the desire of the Minister for Finance to take any money he can get his hands on where the guardianship of that money is not strong? The Minister is the guardian of the Unemployment Insurance Fund. That is not State money, but is the property of the contributors, and the Minister had no right to lower the guards and let the Minister for Finance raid that fund, even for the sake of this paltry amount which represents the cost of the cash supplement for six weeks. The Minister for Finance has done mean things since his appointment, but surely this is the meanest of them all. These funds should be inviolate against the Minister for Finance. Why were they established? Why were the contributions under the national health and the unemployment insurance schemes put into separate funds, except to protect them against the Minister for Finance, except to ensure that the hard-pressed Minister would not use them for other than general Exchequer purposes? It was to ensure that they would be seen to be the property of the contributors and that they could not be used for any purpose, except to benefit the contributors. Yet the Minister for Finance is proposing to raid these funds and the Minister for Social Welfare is not resisting him.

The Minister may say that when I introduced the Unemployment Assistance Act we provided for a contribution to the cost of unemployment assistance out of the unemployment insurance fund. I justified that at the time on the ground that persons entitled to benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Act could, under the law, if they chose to do so, draw unemployment assistance and allow their insurance stamps to accumulate. It was frequently in the interest of an insured person that he should do so and, therefore, the introduction of the unemployment assistance scheme did to some extent relieve the unemployment insurance fund, perhaps not to the extent of the £200,000 we took from it, but to some extent which it would be difficult to determine. I think, therefore, whatever the Minister does in future in relation to these funds, he should delete from this Bill this mean provision to raid these funds for the sake of the six-week cash supplement payments which will be made after the 1st July and for which full provision was made in the Estimates and the Budget.

There is another section of the Bill about which I am worried. One of the provisions of the unemployment assistance scheme debarred any person from the right to unemployment assistance who left his employment voluntarily or who lost his employment through just cause, which, in any case of dispute, would be determined by the court of referees. Remember now what I said was the logical case for the means test. The State can take from the general body of citizens their hard-earned money to pay out to other individuals only if it can be shown that these individuals are in need of it and in justifiable need. Apply that to this provision of the unemployment assistance code. A man is entitled to draw on the community resources during a period of unemployment if that unemployment is not voluntary. Where a man works at a job and performs it so incompetently that he has to be dismissed, is there any obligation on the State to go to the citizen who is working hard and make that citizen pay in the form of an increased contribution under the Unemployment Insurance Act or in any other way, so as to meet the cost of giving assistance to that other worker who has lost his employment of his own free will or through his own fault? The Minister is not proposing the abolition of that provision but he is proposing to amend it in what I consider to be a most objectionable manner. It is, of course, quite possible that, in the operation of the original unemployment assistance code, that principle perhaps worked unfairly in an odd case——

A Deputy

In many cases.

I am not so sure of that, because, in the main, the determination of fact was made by the court of referees, and I think the court of referees was not likely to act unreasonably in circumstances of that kind.

They had no discretion in the matter.

They had discretion in a case where a worker claimed that the loss of his employment was not due to his own fault.

And the minimum sentence which they passed was three months disqualification. They had no discretion there. This gives them a discretion.

If the Minister thinks that a disqualification of three months is too severe for a man who refuses to work——

Why not give them some discretion in cases where the circumstances are different?

I think you are not giving them the certainty of impartial administration of the law. If you do amend the act, by whom is the decision to be made? A worker leaves his job and is, under the provisions of the Act, ineligible to receive unemployment assistance. Somebody is going to decide in his case for what period assistance will be withheld from him. Who will decide it?

The court of referees, of course. Did you not read the Bill?

The Bill says: "As may be determined by the Act." Am I to understand that is what it means?

Will there be any means to insure uniformity in the decisions of the courts of referees as between one court and another, or as between the chairman and the deputy-chairman? Does the Minister not realise that the workers will accept a condition of that kind unless one worker thinks he is being treated more harshly than another? I think the Minister would be much wiser, if he thinks the period of disqualification of three months is too long, to reduce it rather than to introduce this element of discrimination as between various workers.

The same applies to the proposed repeal of the disqualification for fraud. Having regard to the general nature of this Unemployment Assistance Act, the fact that it means taking money from the worker in employment to help the worker who is out of employment, there must be rigid safeguards against the possibility of fraud. Every Deputy knows that fraud under the Unemployment Assistance Act has been successfully operated in many parts of the country. Nobody ever believed that the administration of unemployment assistance was watertight. In every part of the country it is known that men in employment were drawing unemployment assistance and also that men who were self-employed frequently drew unemployment assistance. The only effective deterrent against frauds of that kind was the knowledge that if the fraud was discovered the punishment would be severe. It has been our experience over a number of years that the punishments inflicted by the District Courts will not be sufficient to deter people attempting frauds in future.

I think in the interest of maintaining public support for unemployment assistance—and there were many times during my period of office when it seemed likely that public opinion was moving against the maintenance of an unemployment assistance scheme—it is desirable that the barriers against successful fraud should be increased and not weakened. I would urge the Minister seriously to consider whether the deletion of that provision of the original Act which he is proposing must not be accompanied by some other safeguard which will have at least an equally deterrent effect upon people attempting fraud under the unemployment assistance code.

There are other minor points, but these might perhaps be better referred to on the Committee Stage. I am curious, however, to know one thing. The rates of contribution under the Unemployment Insurance Act are being increased, but I note that in the case of boys and girls there appears to be something which needs explaining. It is proposed that the contribution payable by the worker, who is in this case a boy between 16 and 18 years, will be increased by ½d., and the employer's contribution in respect of that worker will be increased by 1d.; on the other hand, a girl between 16 and 18 years is going to have to pay 1d. more as against ½d. more in the case of a boy, while the employer will only have to pay ½d. as against 1d. If there is some principle in establishing that difference, I would like to know what it is, but if it is an error, perhaps the Minister will see that it is rectified.

Any social security scheme is in effect a device for redistributing the national income. There are, of course, some people who will always argue in favour of a levelling down or a levelling up of individual incomes. They will argue in favour of taking from those who have larger incomes in order to bring up those who have smaller ones, and without having regard to the fact that a redistribution of income means a redistribution of the demand for goods, an intensification in the demand for goods for immediate consumption and a reduction in the demand for goods of a luxury type or of those not ordinarily used for domestic purposes. Any redistribution of demand must involve a redistribution of employment. It may ultimately mean increased employment in some occupations, but it will mean an immediate decrease in others. As far as this Bill is concerned, I want the Dáil to understand that the redistribution proposed is the taking of money from one section of the community in order to increase the benefits payable to others and to relieve the general taxpayer. The class whose income we are proposing to collect and redistribute are the workers employed in manual work or clerical workers with salaries of less than £500 a year, and they are the only class we are proposing to take money from. We are going to make them pay an additional contribution of 6d. every week they are employed and it is from the fund of money created by these sixpences paid by individual workers, that the Government will get the amount for increasing the old age pensions and will relieve the Exchequer of the cost of the scheme. Do the Deputies regard this as a suitable device for the redistribution of income or for financing a scheme of this kind? Would they not agree with me that it would be a much better Bill if it provided the existing rates of national health and unemployment benefit without increasing the contribution from the workers?

You are not giving them anything more than they now have. Since April, 1947, they have enjoyed the prevailing rates without paying any more in contributions, but you are going to say that they will get no increase in the benefit that they may claim. They will get only what they are now entitled to, but in order to become entitled to the present rate of benefit they must pay an additional 6d. a week. If the Deputies agree that the Bill would be better without this provision let them join with me in asking the Minister to delete it. We cannot propose its deletion. Under the Standing Orders of the Dáil, only members of the Government can propose an amendment to a Bill in that regard. No private Deputy can do it. Even if they will not go as far as that, will they go as far as to agree that until this Bill goes into operation, until its rates of benefit are statutory, the Exchequer should continue to pay the cost of the existing benefits and not put in force this incredible provision to raid the unemployment and national health funds for the sole benefit of the Exchequer. That is a provision that I am sure the Minister can have no enthusiasm for and if he is pressed hard enough it will disappear from the Bill. He may have difficulty in expressing his view this evening or to-morrow, but before the Dáil meets next week on the Committee Stage of the Bill, he might persuade his colleagues that the Bill can be improved along the lines I have indicated here.

I would like to join with other Deputies in this House in welcoming this Bill. I do not welcome it as something final in social services which this Government and this Dáil, representing the people, will bestow on the country, but as representing a real increase, an increase which did not seem possible to the people of this country last October, when merely a slight increase in the old age pension was spurned by the members of the Party for which Deputy Lemass now speaks.

I would like at the outset to correct an impression which Deputy Lemass may perhaps have created when he suggested that the Minister for Finance held views contrary to social services. I am quite sure that Deputy Lemass did not intend to convey that impression, because I recollect the Minister for Finance speaking here and he stated what is, I am sure, the aim of us all, so to manage this country and so to progress as a nation that the need for social services will get less and less each year and that by increasing the standard of living of our people, those who have to work and earn wages, we may get away more and more from the necessity for social services. The Minister for Finance, in expressing those sentiments, was merely reiterating what is the ordinary Christian concept of matters like that and I deplore very much the suggestion that was made here that the Minister was speaking at that time against social services. Deputy Lemass very properly said that no Government in office should or could be satisfied with the social services that it was administrating and I think that is probably true. From time to time, as one year follows another, benefits which may have appeared satisfactory at one time may be inadequate at another and, accordingly, the views of the Government should change. I compliment Deputy Lemass and his Party—if they want to make anything of it—on the social services which they introduced into the Dáil and through the Dáil into this country, but I say that those benefits which they brought about were brought about by a young enthusiastic Party and that by the time they left office they were satisfied with what they were administrating. Deputy Lemass is very fond of quoting what he read during the elections, but according to what I read during the last election campaign, they were thumping each other on the back, saying we had the best social services in the world and there was not a thing wrong. Last October Dr. Ryan, when he was Minister in charge, spurned a motion to give some increase in old age pensions and widows' pensions because it would cost £500,000. Was not that evidence of a Government mentality satisfied with the social services they were administering? Did it not show that Deputy Dr. Ryan and Deputy Lemass as Minister in that Government thought that everything was perfect and that the old age pensioners and all the rest of the needy in this country should be very well pleased to have what they had?

The Deputy will agree that that is misrepresentation.

I certainly do not agree that it is misrepresentation. It is a fair commentary on what the Deputy said.

Is it not the truth that last year the Fianna Fáil Government set up the Department of Social Welfare for the express purpose of preparing and submitting to the Dáil a comprehensive scheme and that the Government were opposed to piecemeal measures until a comprehensive scheme was ready?

The Deputy knows well to what I was referring. I was referring to a motion introduced in this House by the present Taoiseach, then Deputy Costello, and the present Minister for Defence (Dr. O'Higgins), which was as follows:—

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the basis upon which income is assessed for the purpose of the means test in the case of persons entitled to old age pensions, blind pensions and widows' and orphans' pensions requires revision and, in particular, that, in assessing income for such purpose, no cognisance should be taken of (a) gratuities paid to a pensioner by members of his or her family whether in cash or in kind; (b) any benefits received otherwise than in actual cash, and (c) casual moneys earned by the pensioner, and requests the Government to take all necessary steps accordingly.

That was a motion which aimed at giving some increase to particular classes of pensioners, and the Minister at that time, Deputy Dr. Ryan, expressed the view of Deputy Lemass's Government. I am quoting from Volume 108, column 822 of the Official Reports:—

"To carry out the terms of this motion would, so far as I can calculate—it is difficult to calculate it— involve a sum of between £500,000 and £750,000."

He went on to express the Government's opposition to that particular motion. A division was taken afterwards and into the Division Lobby to vote against that motion went Deputy Lemass.

If the motion was before the Dáil now you would have to vote against it.

I may take it it is the Deputy's view that there should be no modification on the means test.

No. I expressed my view on that very forcibly.

Many matters were dealt with by Deputy Lemass. He posed a question to the Minister as to whether he considered that 17/6 was sufficient to enable an old age pensioner to exist. Deputy Lemass is an experienced member of this House and I am sure that that question was posed to him and other Ministers before. I do not know what the view of the present Minister is as to the question, but I would be surprised if any Minister of this Government held the view that 17/6 is a sufficient sum. I have no doubt at all, however, as to what was the view of Deputy Lemass and his Government when they voted on this matter last October. They were quite convinced that everything that could be done had been done for the needy of this State. By reason of that mentality, as Deputy Lemass said, they are sitting over there now and they are opposing this Government in the Dáil.

I do agree with one particular matter dealt with by Deputy Lemass, and that is the provision in this Bill so far as the question of fraud is concerned. I agree with him that the greatest menace to a proper social service scheme is the fact that money of the people administered by this State should be diverted into unworthy channels and channels for which it was not intended. I certainly agree with Deputy Lemass that when such a case is discovered the severest penalties should be inflicted. In a matter like that which, after all, goes to the very root of the people's confidence in a scheme like this, there should be no room for soft-heartedness or saying that we will give somebody another chance, because the matter is far too serious. I quite agree with what Deputy Lemass said about the unfortunate examples in the past of men drawing, by false representations, money to which they were not entitled under the unemployment assistance scheme. I think that the provision in the Bill in that respect should be examined by the Minister and that some changes should be made.

There is one other matter to which I should like to refer. It is a defect which I find in the Bill and which has been in every Bill dealing with old age pensions since the first Bill in 1908, and that is the fact that, so far as rural Ireland is concerned, people living on the land have no certainty, good, bad, or indifferent, as to what their rights are. The original Old Age Pensions Act, a statute of the British Parliament, was designed for industrial England and, in particular, to benefit old people living in the industrial cities whose income could be readily assessed and for whom the benefit could be easily ascertained. We have necessarily carried over that Act and the manner in which the benefits are assessed and calculated under that Act to what is a predominantly agricultural country. I find that the provisions which deal with the land of this country are the provisions in Section 2 of the 1911 Act:—

"That in calculating for the purpose of the principal Act the means of a person, account shall be taken of the yearly value of any advantage accruing to that persons from the use or enjoyment of any land or property."

I have always held the view that that provision is entirely unsatisfactory, entirely unsuited to the requirements of this country, and needs immediate change.

It may surprise Deputies—it certainly surprised me in reading the various Acts—that nowhere in any Act dealing with old age pensions do the words "farmer" or "farm" occur. We all know, no matter on what side of the House we sit, what that provision has meant. It has meant that an officer from the Department investigating the claim of a holder of land puts his own value on the land. He may be more tender-hearted than the next man who comes around. As a result, one man may get a bigger pension than a man similarly situated a few miles away, or one man may get no pension and somebody else get a pension. That has created considerable uncertainty and confusion since 1911. Deputies who have experience of country constituencies will appreciate what I am saying. It has led to this very regrettable consequence—that the cleaner and tidier a cottage and a couple of acres of land are, the less is the owner's chance of getting a pension. That is a very unfortunate circumstance which should be remedied now by the social legislation which is being introduced.

A farmer or a man owning land or property down the country is as entitled as his working brother in the city to know what his claims are on this State. He should not be put in the position that when he reaches old age he is at the mercy—I do not mean any reflection now—of the officer who investigates his case. That, unfortunately, has often been the position. In addition, if the old age pensioner has had a good thrifty wife who keeps his house clean and tidy for him, is he going to be black-polled and turned down by the investigation officer.

I know of a case myself where an old age pensioner with a small bit of land was turned down by an investigation officer. I made representations to the Department on his behalf and I was told that he had committed the enormous sin of installing a radio in his cottage and that nobody could, therefore, seriously think that he was entitled to any benefit. I suggest that some change should be introduced in respect of that particular matter. I am not sufficiently versed in the various Acts to devise a particular means of calculating the value of property, but we should not forget that there is a means there already under the income-tax code whereby a man's land, no matter how trifling in size, has a particular value put on it. At the present time, a man, the valuation of whose land is £10 or under, will almost certainly get the full pension, but the very moment the valuation goes beyond that to £11, £12, £13 or £14 the doubt and the uncertainty commences. Assuming that it is necessary to have a means test, some certainty would be introduced if a particular figure for yearly income were arrived at in accordance with the income-tax Acts. Take, for instance, the case of a man with a poor law valuation of £18 and a Land Commission annuity of around £9 or £10. The actual value of his land under Schedule A and B, for income-tax purposes, would be in or about £23. By utilising the means already provided in the income-tax Acts, and if you take a valuation of £30 or £35 for land purpose, farmers will be able to know definitely what their rights are. When I say "farmers" I mean men with a small bit of property down the country. It is an important matter and one that has, for a long time, been left there by successive Ministers in charge of it as a problem that must be attended to some time, but nobody has ever bothered to attend to it. I do not know whether I am right, but I imagine it affects more people in this country than those not affected.

I compliment the Minister on the Bill generally. I think it represents a much-needed measure of social justice to the people of this country. I am sure, however, the Minister does not regard it as the optimum and that he will strive for better things in the future. For that reason I think that the Bill is merely a tender to the people of this country for better times in the future for those in distress.

Mr. Byrne

I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to the application of the means test in Dublin so far as old age pension applicants are concerned. I am a member of the Old Age Pensions Committee in Dublin and I must say that the objections which are sometimes raised to giving an applicant an old age pension are amazing. Take, for instance, the case of an old man or an old woman with a life savings of £100, who makes application to the pensions department for an old age pension. An officer comes along and, on hearing of the £100 life savings, puts down 5 per cent. as an assessment against that £100, whether it is invested or not. We all know that nobody will get 5 per cent. interest nowadays yet, no matter what anyone may say, we are told that it is in the Act of Parliament. I do not remember reading the Act for some considerable time now and I do not remember a provision in it whereby 5 per cent. is charged on the first £100. So few of the claimants to the old age pension had £100 that nobody made any great row about it at the time. I myself did not raise any row about it. I maintain, however, that the principle is wrong, because there is no such thing nowadays as 5 per cent. on £100, and if the applicant is not getting 5 per cent. on £100 that percentage should not be charged against him. In the application of the means test in Dublin we have found that if a child gives his mother, say, 30/- a week for his upkeep it will be regarded as a way of building up means.

I know of the case of a boy who gave 27/- out of the 30/- per week which he earned to his parents, the result being that 4/- profit against the boy was put down to build up the means test. Take also the case of the officer who went into a little cottage where there were 12 hens in the backyard. He wondered what an old person of 70 years of age wanted the 12 hens for and he calculated the sale of the eggs of the 12 hens at 4/- a dozen and the woman's pension was reduced by 1/- a week. That came before us in Dublin. The income she received from her hens was taken into calculation. Eggs, I think, were 4/- a dozen. The pension was accordingly reduced on the basis of that income. In another part of the city there was a woman who applied for a pension. She had a pear tree growing against her house and in order to prevent her windows being broken or the wall being damaged she sold the pears every year to the children of the district at 1d. each. The number of pears was counted; her income from them was calculated and her pension was accordingly reduced. There was one man who was very active in agitation to have old age pensions increased. His name was Mícheál Ó Maolain. One day I was sitting on the committee when a great big, soft, decent looking man came in. He was completely uneducated and had been knocking around the country all his life. He was staying in a lodging house in Dublin at this time and he applied for the pension. We asked him how he lived and after the usual fashion of these people he said: "Oh, sir, don't ask me." We asked him what his means were; we told him that it would help his application if we had the information. We asked him what his objection was to telling us. He said: "It is this way—when it is dark I stand in the street and I get pennies from the people passing by." The pennies he received were calculated and an assessment made for pension purposes. I do not know whether he ever got the pension. We handed him over to Mícheál Ó Maolain to look after him and I think he probably did get the pension eventually.

I do not think it was ever intended under any Act of Parliament to assess incomes of that kind for pension purposes. On one occasion Deputy MacEntee, in reply to Deputy Hickey, said that the Act meant incomes of a statutory nature. I do not see how these incomes could possibly come within the category of statutory. I do not believe that such means were ever intended to be taken into consideration. Neither do I think were the sums paid by a son or daughter living with his or her parents for board and lodging in his or her home meant to come under consideration for pension purposes. I know of a case where the 30/- per week paid by a daughter to her parents for her board and lodging was calculated and their pension reduced under that calculation.

Another matter arising out of social welfare is the question of certain employees in Government offices. If the Minister would look around his own department and the other departments of the State he would find a number of married men acting as porters, messengers, packers, junior clerks and cleaners in receipt of less than £4 per week. What is the use of talking about social services and providing benefits for people when you have these unfortunates trying to eke out an existence on their meagre wages. Some increases should be given to them to meet the increased cost of living.

I am afraid the Deputy is travelling. This Bill does not deal with wages at all.

Mr. Byrne

That is quite true. Somebody read a letter here drawing attention to these social service schemes and to the fact that there are many wage earners to-day who cannot buy clothes on the wages they receive in government service. I have here another letter. I am not quite clear as to its meaning. It says:—

"I would feel very much obliged to you, if you would see to it in the Dáil, that the ex-Guards are included in the Social Welfare Bill, especially the national health section, as they are nobody's children, but at the same time good Irishmen."

What bearing this has on the Social Welfare Bill before the House I do not know.

I welcome this Bill. I look upon it as the first big stride forward in providing social amenities for our necessitous people, and I would make a special plea to the Minister to include within its scope the elderly men and women of 65 to 70 years of age who are at present ineligible for old age pensions. I think, too, that under children's allowances the first child should count in all cases. I hope that something will be done to modify the means test still further. I am glad that the special provision has been introduced whereby blind persons will qualify for pension at 21 years of age.

Just as I am about to finish the Minister returns to the House. I hope he will inquire into the wages of the lowly paid workers of Government Departments and that he will see they are treated decently.

I should first like to deal with Part V of this Bill, in which provision is made to cope with the situation that exists in the area covered by the South Cork Board of Assistance. We were for a number of years in a pretty awkward position in Cork with regard to a certain number of people who, though they were living in corporation houses outside the borough boundary, still found themselves classed as rural people, not entitled to come under the Employment Period Order. They were classed generally as rural labourers. I happened to be concerned with these people for the past ten or 12 years. The fight was a long and a tough one. I succeeded in getting them their rights by giving them weekly home assistance. That home assistance was given to each family and they were entitled to food vouchers which were met by the State. In that manner we made up to them the wrong that was being done them by the State from 1941 onwards. That state of affairs carried on very happily until the Minister withdrew the food vouchers; and then we had trouble. But the Minister met us fairly enough by promising that he would bring in this section, under which he would put those people in the same position as their comrades in the city. I want to congratulate the Minister on doing so and I thank him on behalf of the ratepayers in the South Cork area, whom I represent.

I view with great alarm the deterioration in the financial standing of this country since this inter-Party Government came into office five months ago. What was our financial standing six or seven months ago? What were we able to do at that time for social services? What were we able to do for the old age pensioner? I heard the Minister for Defence, Deputy Dr. O'Higgins, at one time reading out very solemnly a motion that was introduced into this House by the Taoiseach, then Deputy Costello, and himself. Here is what the motion said:—

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the basis upon which income is assessed for the purpose of the means test in the case of persons entitled to old age pensions, blind pensions, and widows' and orphans' pensions, requires revision and in particular that in assessing income for such purposes, no cognisance should be taken of (a) gratuities paid to a pensioner by members of his or her family whether in cash or in kind; (b) any benefits received otherwise than in actual cash, and (c) casual moneys earned by the pensioner, and requests the Government to take all necessary steps accordingly.

We were, apparently, in the opinion of those Deputies, in a financial position to do that last October. It would cost only £500,000, according to Deputy O'Higgins. I have searched this Bill in vain for any proposal of that sort. Perhaps the Minister will show it to me later on. If we were in a financial position to do this last October, surely, after the recent financial agreement which was made across the water, and with all the hens laying and all the butter that is coming into the country, we ought to be in a very much better position to do it to-day? But where is it in the Bill? Is this the position, that the financial position has so deteriorated since 18th February that the Government cannot do even this much now? In the same list of private motions, I find another gem:—

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the rates of pension payable under the Old Age Pensions Acts and the Blind Persons Acts should be increased by 5/- per week.

That motion is over the names of Daniel Morrissey, Thomas F. O'Higgins and James Coburn. There is another motion in the names of the present Minister for Local Government, Deputy William Davin and Deputy James Larkin. That motion looks for 22/6 a week for old persons and blind persons without means, and it goes on to say:—

To modify the existing provisions relating to the calculation of means so as to secure that any income not exceeding 20/- per week enjoyed by any applicant for an old age pension or a blind person's pension will not be taken into account.

Perhaps the Minister for Social Welfare considered this motion at a Party meeting before it was put on the paper. You would expect an inter-Party Government that was fixed up like this one was fixed, would say, as between 17/6 and 22/6: "We will split the difference and make it £1". They did not do that; they would not dream of doing it.

What promises did the Deputies opposite give the people so that they could sit on those benches? I have here certain addresses to the electors of Cork, signed by at least one who succeeded in making his way to this House, and that is Deputy Thomas F. O'Higgins. He told the electors that Fine Gael would remove the means test.

I am wondering when I read these promises, about the removal of the means test on which Deputy Tom O'Higgins was elected and became Minister for Defence, whether he was elected under false pretences, because here is the Bill and there is no removal of the means test. The means test is still there. The Minister for Local Government last October considered that we were in a financial position which would permit us not to take into account, in assessing the means of an applicant, any income not exceeding 20/- per week. What is this? I am afraid the country will continue to deteriorate financially, as it has deteriorated for the past five months, and that we shall soon arrive at the stage when the Government will be reducing pensions instead of adding to them.

Do you think we are not giving them enough?

It is the conservative mind of the Deputy, directing Party affairs, that succeeded in bringing them down to this. I am sure the pensioners will be thankful to Deputy Madden. I am definitely opposed to a means test. I have expressed that view here on occasion after occasion, for the past 15 years, whether it was a Government of my own Party or another Government was in office. I think it is a wretched thing, a miserable thing, something that should be got rid of. I have seen it working and I should like to congratulate Deputy O'Higgins on his attack on the means test in rural Ireland. It is abominable. I remember that on one occasion an unfortunate widow down in Garryvoe had half an acre of beet. A genius from the Department of Finance came into that half acre and he valued her net profit on it at £36, and took away the widow's pension. I suggest to the Department that that individual should be attached to the Department of Agriculture to advise them as to the most profitable way of disposing of beet and to show us how to produce it on a more profitable basis. That genius would nearly be of as great a value to agriculture as the present Minister for Agriculture. He would nearly drown us with butter and make the hens lay perhaps twice a day. It is pinpricks of that description that are annoying and irritating our people beyond endurance. We find them occurring day after day and week after week in rural Ireland.

For the last 16 years.

Yes, and for the last 25 years, and if I am any judge of form, when we will be over there in five or six months' time, it will still be going on.

A Deputy

What a hope?

I tell you, take a good look around.

What is the betting on that hope?

I am amazed to hear the Minister talk about betting. I was dealing with the condition of affairs that exist in rural Ireland. Deputies representing rural constituencies are as well aware of it as I am.

Even the conservative ones.

Even the most conservative ones. I cannot get an economic price for milk like Deputy Madden. How many times do we find that even when the old lad hands over the reins and the son comes in, and the old lad applies for the pension, he will not get the pension. Why? Because the son is not married. Does anyone meet that case?

I met many a case of that kind. Even though the "gossoon" might be 57 years of age, the old lad would still be in the corner and he would not get the pension because the "gossoon" had not got married. We meet these cases time after time. I am far more concerned with finding some means of removing that condition of affairs than in doing anything else. Every Deputy would bless the Minister who could do that. It would add far more to the contentment of these people than any improvement in the social services that we can think of.

We have this mean and miserable system under which an unfortunate inspector comes round, poking his nose into the affairs of applicants for pensions, and asking such questions as: "How many hens have you? How many pigs did you fatten last year"? All these paltry things are counted up one after another. How many of us have met the case of the unfortunate widow who goes out to take a day's washing, say, one day or two days in the week, and who is pounced upon by an inspector, and her pension rate reduced? We are supposed to be legislating here for the people. We are supposed to have a knowledge of what the people need. I suggest that we should go into these matters on this Bill now, remedy them and put an end to them. You will not be throwing these inspectors out of employment. You can hand them over to the Minister for Agriculture and he can make use of them on the farm buildings scheme, which is badly wanted. These are the things that count and irritate in the rural life of this country. The Minister himself represents a rural constituency. The Minister knows those things; he has met them in the course of his duty as a Deputy, just as I have met them, just as the Minister for Local Government has met them, and just as every Deputy in this House has met them from time to time. Let us put an end to them now, there is enough goodwill between the lot of us here to end that condition of affairs now. Let the Minister come up to scratch and he will be doing the biggest thing ever done by a Minister in this House in our time if he removes that rotten condition of affairs, because it is a rotten condition.

We all know what the condition is in rural Ireland. You have the old man and the old woman of 70 years; their family is grown up, some of them perhaps being beyond marrying age, and no provision is made for them; they are endeavouring to take things as they find them but they cannot do it. The old man is entitled to a pension if he can get it but he cannot get it. The old man has no more claim on that farm than I have, because the existence of that old man on that farm, from once he becomes crippled with rheumatism at 60, depends on the unpaid labour of his family. The farm belongs, not to that man, but to his family who work as unpaid labourers. He is deprived of his pension by this Act as by every other Act we brought in here. Can we remedy that? If this old man wants a room in the house and his keep, that is assessed and there goes his pension. You have to have two marriage agreements, one to show to the pensions officer and one to show to the wife inside. There is no Deputy in this House who has not done that job; I have done it repeatedly and if it is evading the law, well and good. If the marriage agreement provides for a room in the house, food and keep, a bit of clothes and £5, £10 or £20 a year as the case might, it is going to deprive the old couple of their pension and, therefore, we have to have two agreements.

They are not taken into account at all in marriage settlements.

Another genius! If that genius had my experience in those things it would be better for him than all the books of law he ever read.

When he is here 16 years he will have it.

I would like to get the Deputy to ask the opinion of the Deputies who have more experience than he has now.

I would like the Deputy to talk about the Bill.

I am talking about the Bill and about what is not in it.

He has been talking about the means test for the last 15 minutes and has been repeating himself.

We got a promise that the means test would be removed.

Deputy Corry will cease repeating himself on the means test.

Deputy Corry is now going to deal with another thing that is not in the Bill and that should be in it. Take the farm labourer or the road worker. When that poor devil comes to the age of 70 he has to live on his fat for six months, because his earnings during the previous 12 months are counted up and are too much for him to get the pension. Therefore, he is not entitled to a pension at 70 unless he started begging six months before that and I want to see that remedied. It is a thing that touches us far more closely even than what I mentioned previously. We all know that the rural labourer in this country has nothing. He has not a fluke; if the unfortunate man has to live a month idle he could not do it unless he went to the county home, but he cannot get the old age pension at the age of 70, because his income for the previous 12 months is calculated as being over the sum. That is something I had wished to see remedied in this Bill and I hope I will see it remedied on the Committee Stage.

How did he exist up to February?

Nobody thought that Deputy Corry could do anything, but if the Deputy had one-tenth of my experience he would know something. I have repeatedly drawn attention to that condition of affairs in this House——

And they did not listen to you.

Will Deputy Rooney be quiet and stop annoying me? Very few Deputies in this House have as much knowledge of these matters as the present Minister for Local Government and I am glad to see him there beside the Minister for Social Welfare to advise him. He has met ten of those cases to every one that I have met, because his constituency is a far worse one than mine in that respect. It is a constituency of small farmers and labourers and he has met this old age pensions crux far oftener than I have. I know very well that I am not talking to a hard-hearted individual when I am talking to the Minister for Social Welfare. He has proved to me that he is quite touchable; he has proved that you need only talk straight, honest and decent to him and he will meet you, not half-way but three-quarters, or, as he has done in Section 6, the whole way. I have found that and, therefore, I am more than anxious that we should succeed in reaching some agreement on this matter and get some indication from the Minister that the condition of affairs I have pointed out will now be ended, because, after all, it is a condition that affects far more people in rural Ireland than any other. As Deputy Beegan pointed out, there seems to be to-day a definite anxiety regarding all those things, particularly this very wrong distinction between the rural man and the city man. I think it is unfair, more than unjust. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
Top
Share