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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 10 Dec 1948

Vol. 113 No. 10

Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 1948—Second Stage.

I move the Second Reading of this Bill. In doing so I would suggest that the general discussion on Army strength, Army policy and Army organisation, might be more appropriately taken in conjunction with the Estimate but if there is any desire on the part of the House, or of any Deputies, to discuss such matters arising out of or in connection with this Bill, of course that is within their right and I have no objection. In dealing with the Second Reading, if such matters are raised I propose not to raise them myself but to deal with them in reply to the debate. I think however there is one matter which has appeared to a very great extent in the newspapers and on which it is important to clarify the position in introducing the Bill. There have been a number of Press references of one kind or another in different newspapers giving a peculiar prominence to inter-Army courtesies which I believe are normal, beneficial and should be encouraged. There is no new departure in the way of policy in regard to officers from other armies visiting our Army or officers from our Army visiting other armies. There is nothing new. That has been the procedure that has been followed by two previous Governments. It is the normal procedure with armies representative of friendly countries but, on account of the late war and of the amount of public attention attracted by any suggestions of postwar alliances, these normal courtesies have been featured to such an extent as to give rise to doubt, suspicion and, even, to a certain amount of anxiety.

I think Deputies opposite, and Deputies all round, would understand that it is in the best interests of the nation and the world as a whole, to have, so far as it is humanly possible, the friendliest feeling existing between the officers and men in different armies. In that connection, I can only assure the House that the statement made by the Taoiseach was made without any reservation and that there is nothing indicative in such inter-Army courtesies of anything sinister, nothing indicative of any back-scene arrangement or alliance of any kind, whether between two or more than two countries. Deputies opposite have heard time and again from two Governments that the matter of engaging in any such alliance is unthinkable and impossible for a divided partitioned country whether in peace or in war. The position of dual command—even, possibly, rival commands—in a little island of this kind, is just next door to impossible. An adequate defence plan for a small island divided in two is nearly militarily impossible and greater responsibility, greater risks or anything else are just inconceivable as long as this country is and remains a divided country. I introduced those particular observations just in case they might be raised from elsewhere in perfectly good faith. I wanted to give that assurance in advance as clearly and as emphatically as it is possible to do so.

On the introduction of this Bill,—it is, of course, an annual Bill, a Temporary Defence Forces Bill—it would be reasonable that questions should be put as to what the position is regarding the permanent Defence Forces Bill. The work on that Bill is proceeding. It is a very detailed and a fairly comprehensive measure. It is our intention to introduce it at the very earliest possible date. It has not reached the degree of finality yet, even to bring it before the Government as a whole. I very much fear that it will not be complete and ready for the House in time to obviate the necessity of having this Bill as a carrying-on Bill up to 1950. Consequently, I am introducing this Bill. The Bill itself is a very short one. I think the White Paper that was circulated with the Bill made clear the reason for and the meaning of the different amendments and additions that are contained in this Bill. They are very few in number and perhaps there is only one that may call for anything in the nature of criticism or detailed explanation. That is the particular section which alters the penalties to be imposed on deserters as defined in the Emergency Order of some years ago and subsequently incorporated in the Temporary Defence Force Act of 1946. There were in the original Order a number of penalties imposed on deserters; loss of pay, loss of gratuity, forfeiture of pension, the normal military penalties of imprisonment or otherwise and a further disqualification from any employment directly or indirectly paid for out of State funds for a period of seven years. I am proposing to the House that we keep all those penalties and disqualifications with the exception of the latter disqualification. I am recommending to the House that, when keeping all the normal military penalties—forfeiture of gratuity, forfeiture of pension and of pay and the discharge sheet that states clearly the reason of discharge—they waive disqualification from employment for a period of seven years.

My reasons for asking the House to agree to that amendment are many and, I think, sound. Firstly, when the original Order was brought in imposing all these penalties on deserters, I think that both the Minister and the Deputies in the House were concerned with the fact that certain men with the colours had deserted and gone to give service elsewhere. I do not think any of us were aware of the full legal consequences of that particular Order when it was put into operation. When legal opinion was taken on the matter, it was found that the particular Order not only applied to what you may call straightforward deserters but it also applied to men who were on the reserve, not called up but who had not left any address and who went to work on turf bogs or elsewhere without leaving an address. While they were elsewhere, they were called up, but did not get the call and, consequently, did not respond to it. The result is that all those men are at the moment, according to the law, unemployable, and will remain unemployable for the next four years. In practice and in good faith and without knowing their legal category, a great number of such men have been taken into employment of a semi-State kind under local authorities, working on the roads, on the bogs or working under such other organisations as receive part of their funds from public funds. When, recently, I circulated a list of all such people to different local authorities, it was ascertained that a number of men here and there up and down the country, hardworking men, who were giving good service, whether on the roads or in some other capacity, must be turned out of work promptly if the full law, as it stands, is applied. I am asking the Dáil to keep all the remaining penalties and disqualifications, but to waive the particular one that brands these men as unemployable for the next four years. There may be a certain amount of balancing to be done about such a recommendation. I think, however, that most Deputies, on the whole, will consider that the recommendation is a reasonable one.

There is another amendment dealing with the period of service where a man, having completed his full service, reattests. At the moment, he has the right to reattest and the Army authorities have the right to take him. However, when he has reattested, and when he has been taken he must be released from service at any time he gives three months' notice. That creates an unstable position in an Army. Any day you may receive a a great number of requests giving three months' notice and those men must be released on doing so. It is proposed by an amendment in this Bill that once a man reattests for a period of two years if he wants to get out within the period of two years on compassionate grounds, humanitarian grounds or any other grounds that will be dealt with in the normal administrative way.

Deputies know that, apart from an emergency situation when there are very sound and very real reasons for retaining a man with the colours, if a man has a good case on compassionate grounds to be released, the ordinary administrative machine always takes a reasonable and humane view of such applications. In the ordinary course of events, the man would be released. I think Deputies sitting on the opposite benches will realise that, if you have an Army to a great extent built up on the basis that any man that gives three months' notice must be released, that is not either militarily or administratively sound.

There is a proposal here in another section with regard to the reserve of officers—that, on application, the Minister can attach them to any particular branch of the reserve. At the moment, if an officer is a reserve officer in one reserve branch and if he applies to be transferred to another, and the general staff and the Minister want to transfer him to another, there is no legal power to do so. He must be retired first and reattested. The underlying idea of this amendment is to give the right, on application, subject to a recommendation of the general staff, for the transfer of an officer from one portion of the reserve to another.

Part III of the Bill deals with the power to make bye-laws governing transport and traffic within certain military areas. That arises out of the necessity for an extension of the aerodrome at Baldonnel. It is necessary, in the interests of public safety, after due notice and after consultation with the Department of Local Government, that the Department of Defence should have the right to close up certain roadways during certain operations. If such authority is given by the Dáil, that particular power will only be exercised when it must be exercised in the interests of public safety, and will be exercised in such a way as to cause the very minimum degree of inconvenience to the general public.

I agree with the Minister that there is little contentious matter in this Bill. Perhaps the only contentious matter is that which he referred to himself. At the same time, I would like to utter a mild protest against the manner in which this Bill has been brought before the House. The Minister, a week ago, promised the House that the Bill would be circulated on Monday. Actually, it was not in the hands of Deputies until Wednesday.

I am sorry about that.

I know that it is not the Minister's fault because it has occurred on previous occasions. What I feel about it is that this is a Bill by reference, and you have to refer to other legislation if you want to get an intelligent understanding of what is contained in it. From that point of view, while I do not hold the Minister responsible for the delay that has occurred in the circulation of the Bill, I do suggest that it seems to me to be unnecessarily hurried. This Bill will not have any effect until after the 31st March. Therefore, I would have expected that the Minister would have left it over until next week so that there would be no suggestion that Deputies had not ample time, if they so desired, to consult the Principal Act, and so satisfy themselves on the matters contained in the Bill. As I have said, from my point of view there is nothing objectionable or contentious in the Bill with the exception of the matter which was referred to by the Minister himself.

With regard to Section 5, however, I cannot see any real necessity for the amendment to that section for the reason that it was provided that a man who had completed his 21 years' service, if he was fit and his character was good, could be permitted by the Army authorities to continue serving for another 12 months. The main idea behind that was that it would give a serving soldier the opportunity of finding his place in civilian life. He could not just do that until his 21 years were up. If a man was of good character it was only right that he should be given the opportunity of trying to re-establish himself in civilian life. I know from practical experience that not even the three months were insisted on if the soldier could, by any means, find employment in civilian life. The Army authorities were only too willing to release that man and so permit him to establish himself.

There is another aspect of this: that I see a danger in respect of the extension for the two years. It is with regard to the official quarters. A man who is a serving soldier for 21 years will no doubt be a tenant of official quarters. By his continuance over the 21 years he is likely to exclude a young soldier who is perhaps only beginning his long term of service from being established in such quarters.

That is if we are able to get him out.

That is the difficulty. I am not even going to put down an amendment about it but I am throwing out the suggestion to the Minister that his continuance in service should depend on his getting out of the official quarters within a specified time. If he were given 12 months or some period like that he would have a fair opportunity of securing accommodation for himself. You can be assured that if a man, who is continuing on for a further term of service has the opportunity of securing civilian employment he will go for it, because it should be much easier for him to re-establish himself in civilian life at the age of 41 than it would be at the age of 51— that is if he continued for ten years over and above the 21 years. From that point of view I think that his continuance in service should be dependent on the fact that arrangements would be made to ensure that these quarters will be available for the young soldier who is facing his long period of service.

I take very strong exception to the deletion of Section 8 from the original Act. If there are such men as the Minister mentioned here they could very easily be dealt with. If, for instance, it is true that a reservist failed to have delivered to him his calling-up notice, then that can be investigated, and if it can be proved that he was not in fact an actual deserter but rather that he was absent from service by reason of the fact that he failed to secure the original calling-up notice then, to my mind, it would be a very easy matter to cover that particular type of man.

Would it help the Deputy if I were to give him the figures? I meant to do so earlier. The number of people that all regard in the fullest sense as deserters, those are men who left the colours and went elsewhere, is 3,756.

Major de Valera

Is that the total number of deserters?

It is the total number of people who left the colours and deserted. The total number of deserters, under the legal interpretation of the regulation as it stands, is 4,861. You have, therefore, a large number of people who failed to leave an address at one time or another. With regard to the 756, I may say that I do not know of any of those that are in employment and create any difficulties at the present moment. It is the other odd 3,000.

Major de Valera

Does the Minister mean that only 756 actually deserted?

Regular Army soldiers.

Major de Valera

But what about emergency——

I will give the figures. Seven hundred and fifty-six were soldiers serving on a regular engagement—I take it those were full-term soldiers. Two thousand five hundred and eighteen were men who had enlisted for the period of the emergency. Of those 274 were in the Construction Corps. One thousand three hundred and thirteen were reservists who had been called up for permanent service. The reservists mentioned, that is 1,313, include men who failed to respond to the initial call, who were subsequently released and who failed to report at a further calling up.

Major de Valera

Reservists of all categories?

Yes. I meant to give that information.

Do I get a total of 7,000 from the Minister?

The grand total is 4,800.

I do not desire to pursue these individuals in any kind of vicious way. I want to say, however, that the Irishman who joined the Army of his own country and who deserted and joined the army of a belligerent country—a country which might be a potential invader of this country— would in any other country receive a sentence of one kind or another very much more severe than that imposed upon him by this regulation. We know what happens to soldiers who desert in time of war. There was a time of stress and danger obtaining in this country at the precise time when these men deserted the colours. It seems to me an extraordinary state of affairs that any Minister or any Government would at this stage endeavour to re-establish these deserters from our Army to a foreign army and make available to them employment that in many respects cannot be secured by men who continued to serve their country throughout the emergency. A week or so ago the Minister gave us figures, in reply to a question by my colleague, of the number of Old I.R.A. men who had been forced out of the employment which they had secured from the State. Among the number given, I think it was 51, were 17 Easter Week men.

Nineteen.

It is astonishing that these men who blazed the trail in respect of the establishment of this State are being forced out of the employment they were given by the former Government. They are now on the unemployed list while at the same time provision is being made for deserters, for men who deserted from their own Army and joined a foreign army—men who might very well have been members of an invading force against the rights and principles of this country. That is an astonishing state of affairs and it is one which I would ask the Minister to reconsider. As I have already said, if there are any such persons as the Minister has in mind why not cover that particular type of person? Why in the name of goodness should we go outside that category and bring in these people for whom no Deputy in this House, and no man or woman in this State, could have any respect? After all, a man who joins the Army of his country in time of stress and danger is at least regarded as somebody who is giving loyal and patriotic service to the State. A man who deserts his own Army at a period such as that—I do not care what the reason may have been; whether it was that he was seeking adventure or that he was seeking more pay—deserves no better treatment than the treatment that was meted out to him as a result of the legislation which was passed in 1946. I would ask the Minister, when he is dealing with this matter on the Committee Stage, to re-examine and consider it from the point of view of dealing with those people who may inadvertently have been kept out of serving by failure to deliver the notice or by the fact that at the time they were in England or elsewhere.

The trouble is, by administrative investigation, to be able to segregate the sheep from the goats. They all say that they did not get the calling-up notice. That is not true in all cases.

At least the Minister can deal with the 700 odd people who deserted the colours and joined the ranks of a foreign army.

I would certainly consider categories.

The only other part of this Act then with which I am concerned is sub-section (2):—

"Where a person holds, at the date of the passing of this Act, an office or employment mentioned in paragraph (a) of sub-section (2) of Section 13 of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (No. 7 of 1946), the said paragraph (a) shall not be construed as rendering or as ever having had rendered the appointment of that person to that office or employment unlawful."

None of these are men who were with the colours.

I am not clear as to what the Minister had in mind there.

These people to whom the Deputy is referring at the moment are people who appeared to be bona fide as a result of the process of investigation but who did not get a call-up notice. Legally they were deserters, but they were not with the colours and left.

That clarifies that particular matter then. We do not take objection to that, but I was doubtful as to whether it was not, in fact, covering some of these people who might have been in this particular type of employment and came back; and who, by one means or another, managed to have themselves re-established, or something like that.

No, their discharge certificate would make them ineligible for State employment.

I am satisfied with the Minister's explanation. I am very glad to see that the Minister has taken steps under Section 9 to appoint additional commissioned officers to the naval service. I hope that this is a conversion on the part of the Minister to a belief in the utility and value of a naval service. The Minister will recollect that on last year's Estimate he referred in very belittling terms to the naval service. He was then a Deputy. I hope that as a result of his closer contact with the service now he realises that, however small or poor in type our vessels may be, at least the personnel of that service is as highly trained as the personnel of any other similar service in the world. They have given ample evidence of that. They have shown that they are capable of navigating their vessels to any part of the world under any circumstances. Recently under the Minister's own jurisdiction they proved that conclusively. I would be glad to think that the Minister had changed his views in general in regard to the naval service and that he no longer regards our ships as "mere rubber ducks". That is how he described them on one occasion.

I do not know whether or not it is desirable for Deputies to discuss general military policy on this Bill. I notice, however, by a strange coincidence that the Minister in introducing this Bill committed the same grievous offence of which he accused his two predecessors—Deputy Aiken and myself. We were accused of failure to produce in this House any policy in respect of the Army. On a number of occasions I endeavoured to assure the Minister that the policy in respect of the Army was always there. It was an unchanging policy. It is a policy of ensuring an Army sufficiently large to train a greater Army in time of emergency. The only question that arose at any time was the question as to what the size of the Army should be to carry out that task. We may have differed on that particular question. It is certainly my conviction, as a result of my experience, that it is quite impossible for an Army of 6,000 or 7,000 men efficiently or effectively to turn civilians offering themselves for service in an expanding Army into good soldiers. We had practical experience of that in 1940 when we had a large influx of civilians into the Army. It was found impossible in practice to give these men the type of training necessary in a reasonable period of time with the numbers the Army then had at its disposal. Were it not for the fact that we had a reasonably large number of reservist officers and N.C.O.s to call upon, plus a reasonably efficient Volunteer force numbering between 7,000 to 10,000 men, it would have been impossible, even in the time at our disposal, to turn that Army of civilians into the efficient and effective Army it was in 1942. The Minister had the pleasure of seeing that Army march through the streets of Cork—the capital city of the South—with all their equipment. It was a vast Army in respect of this particular State and to all of us it was a source of pride.

I say again that it was the presence of that Army which ensured the safety of this nation during the emergency. The danger I see at the present time in the reduction which appears to be taking place is that we may find ourselves in the future with an insufficient Army to train an expanding Army. I am convinced that the Army is lower to-day numerically than it was at any time in its history. I am convinced of that and the Minister will correct me if I am wrong. I believe the outflow exceeds the intake. I hope the Minister will be able to correct me on that and assure me and the other Deputies that the Army is not being depleted in the way in which I believe it is. I have no figures at my disposal and I have no precise information, but I think that the strength of the Army to-day is somewhere in the region of 6,000 or 7,000 men. If it is in that region, I say it is in a gravely dangerous region, considering the times in which we live. The Minister made reference to that in the course of his remarks on one of the Estimates that was before the House. He referred to the circumstances that would exist and that, to some extent, should govern the strength of the Army. I feel that at the present time the Army would be incapable in any emergency of dealing effectively with an intake of recruits, and much less would it be able to give the protection that citizens of the State would look to the Army to give.

Deputy Cowan, in the course of a speech in his constituency, suggested that the Army of to-day would be incapable of defending Rineanna. He went further than that in this House when he suggested that the Army of to-day would be incapable of defending this House. I know the Deputy was merely making that statement for effect, that he did not in fact believe that, but it is very doubtful if the Army of to-day could effectively defend Rineanna were it attacked. I am afraid I would have to agree with him in that statement, while I may not agree with him in respect of the defence of this House. That is a very serious state of affairs. If there is even a suspicion that that is so, I say that there should be a complete revision of Ministerial or Governmental policy in respect of the strength of the Army.

The last Government in coming to a decision that an Army strength of 12,500 men was necessary did so on the studied advice of the Army authorities. These were all competent men who had given a life study to the subject of national defence and, naturally, the Government was greatly concerned with the fact that these men considered that number as the very minimum. That is what we were accepting because we were as much concerned as the Minister is about the cost of the Army to the State.

But there are other considerations besides the cost of the Army to the State. If the people want to ensure that the independence of this country is to be retained, they will have to pay the cost which the Army entails. The cost of an Army is the premium, so to speak, which the people have to pay for their safety and security, for the assurance that this State will continue in being. I think that particular aspect was not given the consideration it deserves by the present Government. The first institution of the State to feel the effects of the economy axe in this country was the Army. We were hardly in our seats here on this side of the House when it was announced that all recruitment to the Army had ceased, that the recruiting campaign then in operation should cease, and that contracts which were advertised in all the newspapers throughout the country were cancelled. The Minister can tell me that recruitment did not cease—that they were accepting recruits—and that would be true. I could not dispute that statement if he makes it.

In normal times recruitment to the Army never exceeds 12 or 20 men a month and the outflow from the Army greatly exceeds that number, so that it would be only a matter of time, if that normal course were to continue, until we would have no Army at all. I invite the Minister to inform us what is the strength of the Army to-day, and to give us the week to week number of recruits. He can do that, because I know that the figures are there and there will be no difficulty about giving them. He certainly can give them month by month over a considerable period, and I will be agreeably surprised if the figures I have quoted are exceeded.

It is a matter of vital importance to the citizens of this State that this whole question of the strength of the Army would be reconsidered. Whatever economies are to be effected in this State, in my humble opinion they should not be effected in the Army. I know what the Minister's views were in respect of the strength of the Army when he was sitting on these benches. I know what were the views of a number of his colleagues when they, too, were on this side of the House. I know what were the views of the Minister for Local Government when he was as a Deputy sitting on this side, and the views of the Minister for Lands when, as Deputy Blowick, he was over here. Unless they have changed their minds, I cannot see very much hope of the Army being brought up to the strength which the Army authorities themselves demand as the minimum which would be required if we are to have an effective establishment in this country capable of dealing with any emergency that may arise.

The Minister when he was over here made this statement, as reported at column 52, Volume 105, speaking of our coastal defence:

"What was our coastal defence right throughout the war, quite rightly and properly? Our coastal defence throughout the war, the defence of the water approaches to this country, was the responsibility of the second mightiest navy in the world, and we would be the greatest fools in the world if we did not make use of that all through the war and did not closely co-operate, so as to make that naval defence the more efficient by co-operation between it at sea and us on land."

When the Minister was making that statement I naturally presumed that he meant that he was going to accept all the help possible that the second mightiest navy in the world could give us in respect of the defence of our shores and that he on his part would be prepared, as he said, to give them co-operation on land. What co-operation can we give with an Army with a strength of 7,000 men? That would not be co-operation; it would probably be an impediment. If there was to be any co-operation with the country that controlled the second mightiest navy in the world, and if that co-operation was to ensure that, from the sea anyhow, this State would receive protection of that second mightiest navy, then at least we should have an Army on land that would ensure that the air fleet of some foreign country would not be capable of coming in here and capturing our main air bases.

If Deputy Cowan is correct in his surmise that the Army of to-day would not be capable of defending the airport at Rineanna, I fail to see in what respect we are giving co-operation to anybody. We are not even cooperating with our own people because we cannot give an assurance to them that at least what the Minister himself described as a token defence would be put up. Even if it is only a token defence, we are at least defending our own territory. We are defending it as a free people and we are defending it with our own Army. At least that is to be expected of us, not alone by our own people but by those from whom we are expecting aid of the types suggested.

I suppose I may be speaking on defence policy generally. I take it that the Minister did not want us to discuss defence policy on this Bill but I feel that it is more appropriate to discuss defence policy generally on a Bill which gives the Army its legal existence for a period of 12 months. By the same token, I think it is perhaps a record to have had two Bills of the same character, giving that legal existence to the Army, taken in the one year. We had a Bill here last March, giving the Army its right to operate up to the 31st March, 1949. We are now in 1948 giving it the right to carry on until the 31st March, 1950. As I said in the beginning, I cannot see the necessity or the desirability for hurry in respect to this measure. I should have liked, as I said, to have examined this whole matter in greater detail. I am sure there are quite a number of our Deputies anxious to discuss it also. No doubt the result of taking the Bill to-day will provide them with that opportunity in the coming week. From that point of view, it may be that the discussion here will be of a wider and a healthier character and perhaps helpful to the Minister in his approach to the Government on the general matter of Army policy.

I can only hope that as a result of his contacts with the Army he will have perhaps changed his views but I must express grave doubts in that respect because recently the Minister gave away, or I understand he has made some arrangements about giving away, one of the finest sites for training cavalry in Cork. We had one of the finest and most natural sites down there for training the anti-Tank and the Tank Corps. That I understand has been given to some group of individuals in Cork who intend to establish a race track there.

Without interfering with the training.

I shall discuss that.

That is the view that is taken.

When I was in the position that the Minister now occupies, I received a deputation of representative people from County Cork. They proposed their scheme to me. They outlined it and gave it to me in very great detail. I was very sympathetic to the project but I decided that before I would make any decision on the matter I would consult the Army authorities. I consulted the Army authorities on the matter and they gave me a memorandum which, I presume, is on record. If the Minister has read it he, I am sure, would be convinced that it would not be in the national interest——

The whole scheme was changed so as to comply with the memorandum.

If that is so there is no force in what I am talking about at all. If the whole scheme was changed, then there is no use in discussing the matter any further. However, I should like to be given some assurance that that is so and that it does not, in fact, affect the training of this very necessary anti-tank force. Some such scheme, some such alteration of original plans, was put up to me. They would not be accepted by the Army for the simple reason that the Army tanks going out to carry out their exercises would have to cross the proposed race track. They made it clear to me that if that was so and if certain buildings were to be erected as was also proposed, it would be quite impossible for the Army authorities to carry out the training which was so vitally necessary to this particular corps. They even suggested to me that, if I was feeling so strongly sympathetic to the project, the best thing from their point of view would be for them to get out altogether and seek some other site. That was the position when I left. If the situation has changed to any great degree then that is all right. The Minister has the last word on the matter and nothing more can be said anyhow. There was another site down there, however, which was of tremendous value to the Army authorities and which I understand has also been given away. I think it is called the Rock Road site for the barracks.

On the suggestion of the General Staff.

They suggested to you that this site should be given away?

I see. Then I have been unduly suspicious and I desire to state that openly.

With regard to the Rock Road what I say is correct.

That they came to you and suggested that you ought to give it away?

It was not found suitable.

Well, is was regarded as an ideal site during the recent emergency. Something like 2,000 soldiers were housed there in surroundings which were very much above the normal, for the period of the emergency, anyhow. The huts which were erected there were of a semi-permanent type. They were a magnificent concrete built hut with wooden flooring and fairly reasonably spacious. From my point of view, I regarded them as being an ideal mobilisation centre, a centre which in any emergency, or in any urgent matter of getting troops in quickly and holding them for some particular period, was the ideal site. That site is no longer available for such a purpose. We had the unenviable experience during the last emergency of going round almost every county in the country with the exception of the Six-Counties and taking an old mansion of one kind or another. In some cases we had to renovate them almost completely in order to house the unfortunate soldiers that were given the duty of protecting that particular district of the country. I visited every post throughout the country during that period and I often thought with regret that we had no official barracks of one kind or another in these areas into which we could bring our troops and give them the reasonable comfort to which any man who offers his services to the State is entitled.

I am anxious to hear from the Minister, when he is concluding, what type of co-operation he proposes to give on land to the nation which at the present time has the second strongest navy in the world, and his opinion on the subject of the matters which have been debated in the papers and to which he has referred—I have not followed them up very closely. I have seen a reference here and there to the fact that the military authorities of foreign countries were visiting this country, inspecting our military establishments and so on. Naturally, that did not surprise me, because that sort of co-operation between armies is probably the greatest proof that we are a free people with our own Army, rather than the reverse. It may be, of course, that certain people have misinterpreted the effect of these visits and may have in certain respects regarded them as being in some sense dictatorial or something of that kind. We have been sending officers on courses wherever it was possible to send them. It if were possible to send a man to America on a military course where he could get secure information which was valuable to the Army at home he was sent there to receive it. If it could be secured in France he went to France and secured it, just as if it were possible to secure it in England—and it was, as far as I am aware, nearly always available to our officers to go on courses of one kind or another to the English military establishments —we availed ourselves of the privilege to send our officers on these courses.

The result has been of tremendous benefit to the Army. I am very pleased to be able to say that in almost every case where these officers attended the courses abroad they came very high on the examiners' lists and in some cases they even occupied first place. When these gentlemen came back they instructed selected courses of our own officers and the result, of course, was of tremendous value in general to the Army. I do not think, therefore, that anyone need be perturbed in respect to statements in regard to the visit of foreign officers to our military establishments. If the policy which was carried out in the past is unchanged then, in my opinion, there is nothing to fear.

In concluding my remarks, I would make a special appeal to the Minister to have Section 8 reconsidered from the point of view that I have put forward. In its present form it would be intolerable to suggest that the individuals whom I have in mind should in any circumstances be permitted to avail of the provisions of this particular amendment which is now proposed. The period originally was for seven years. I would appeal to the Minister to let that period run. It is the normal course. People have been disfranchised for a very much less serious offence for a period of seven years. I think it is the legal period which is used in cases of this particular kind, for criminal acts and so on.

In speaking on this I feel and hope that I am interpreting the minds of my own colleagues. I feel that I am interpreting the minds of reasonable, common-sense, decent people in this country when I say that it would be intolerable that any individual who was a serving member of our Army and deserted in a time of serious danger and joined the forces of a foreign nation, should now be put in a position that would place him in a higher category than the men of Easter Week and the men who followed the men of Easter Week—the Old I.R.A. men—because that, in fact, is what we would be doing if we allowed this amendment to go through.

You would not. The discharge certificate would make him ineligible for that type of work. The discharge certificate would still say that he was a deserter and a deserter cannot be employed in the Department of Defence.

But he would be entitled to "any office or employment remunerated out of the Central Fund or out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas."

We are merely removing the disqualification retained in the Emergency Powers Order, but we are not altering the ordinary State regulations with regard to a clean discharge before a person goes into State employment.

I am not concerned about a clean discharge. There are no circumstances that I know of that would give that type of individual a clean discharge.

Therefore, he cannot be employed by the Department of Defence.

But he can be employed by any of the public authorities mentioned in your amendment. He can be employed "in any office remunerated out of the Central Fund or from moneys provided by the Oireachtas or moneys raised by local taxation". That means any corporation, county council or borough council or any body established by or under statutory authority.

We are removing the disqualification imposed by the emergency Order. All the original preexisting disqualifications with regard to a man with a bad discharge remain. That is the position.

Major de Valera

What about the position of a man who joined in the emergency, was not a regular and went off?

He is a deserter under the Emergency Order.

Major de Valera

He would not have any discharge papers.

You mean a man that was never called up?

Major de Valera

He might be called up but went off.

He is in a different category from the man who was with the colours and deserted.

I do not know what is in the Minister's mind when he talks about disqualification. If the disqualification continues to remain, then if this amendment is passed it does not prevent him from securing employment with any of these bodies. Is that not so? As far as leaving the disqualification there is concerned, it merely means that there is a blot on the man's character. Whether you have the power or not to raise that disqualification does not matter to me. The fact that he committed the serious offence of deserting from the Army in a time of stress will remain for all time whether the official disqualification is raised or not. But, whether the disqualification is raised or not, the fact remains that if this amendment is passed he will be entitled—whether he secures the employment or not is another matter—to receive employment from any of these bodies. All that I am asking the Minister to do is to have the matter re-examined. I feel that, as a result of what we have said here, he will have it re-examined with a view to seeing, in the case of those individuals who while they were members of our Army deserted and joined a foreign army, that the original legislation will operate against them.

I do not want to mislead the House, whether the thing that I am putting forward is approved of or not. I want Deputies to understand what I am putting forward. There are two classes. There is the man who was actually with the colours and deserted. He has, as Deputy de Valera has reminded me, a discharge book, and on his discharge book will be written: "Reason for leaving the Army—desertion." A man that has not a clean Army discharge cannot be accepted directly into State employment, whether this amendment is carried or not. You have, then, work such as road work or work with Bord na Móna or some of those other bodies. They do not ask for discharges and so that class of work would be open to him. Then you have another man that is classified in the original emergency Order as a deserter legally. I do not think that we ever intended to make him a deserter. He is a man who was on the reserve, who did not leave his address and, in fact, who never got his call-up. He is under the penalty at the moment.

Major de Valera

May I ask the Minister——

I suggest to the Deputy that this matter might be argued in Committee. It is a matter for Committee and not for this stage.

I regret very much that the Minister should have to introduce this Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill. We had another one of them before the House about eight months ago. At that time I stated my objection as plainly as I possibly could to this form of legislation in regard to the Defence Forces. Deputy Traynor has made a statement about the strength of the Defence Forces. I am anxious to know from the Minister what is the present strength of the Defence Forces, officers, N.C.O.s and men in the regular Army and the reserve in the separate categories. There is no doubt at all that, apart from the question of defence policy, the strength of the Army is as low as it is to-day because of defects in the Defence Forces legislation.

In 1923 the original Defence Forces Bill was introduced. At that time it was necessary that the Bill should be rushed through the House. It was introduced as a temporary Bill with a life of one year. The Minister at the time promised the Dáil that if he were given the powers that were in that Bill he would bring in a revised Defence Forces Bill which could be debated in all its stages in the ordinary way by the House. The House at the time accepted the position as put forward by the Minister and, at the request of the Government of the day passed that legislation into law. The result was that that Bill was not originally examined by this House in the way any other Bill is examined. The discussion of sections did not take place. The result is that for 25 years now the Defence Forces of this country have been governed by an instrument that never received the proper consideration of this House. As one who has some personal experience of the Defence Forces I say that if the Minister were to bring the old 1923 Act, as it is amended up to date, before this House and get the views and the help that would be given to him by Deputies in that connection it would help to remove many of the grievances under which officers and soldiers live. These grievances are, to a large extent, responsible for the fact that we have to-day an Army that is inadequate in strength for any purpose—whether for the purpose of being the base on which an Army could be built up during an emergency period or whether for ordinary maintenance or training purposes.

I had hoped that the Minister, who has had the benefit of experience as an officer in the Defence Forces himself, would have made sure that the Army Headquarters Staff in the last six months would have completed the study of the permanent Bill that is supposed to have been on the stocks for many years. There would be no suggestion, I am quite sure, that Army Headquarters Staff is overworked at the moment. There could be no suggestion that any of the other Army Staffs are overworked at the moment. As I understand it, those staffs are endeayouring to find work to do because they have no soldiers to handle. Down in the Curragh the position is that, with so few soldiers to train or to handle, the staffs there have to try, as I said, to find work. They are looking for work. So much so, that a section that have been mentioned here—the civilian employees of the Department and the Corps of Engineers—are now required to furnish most elaborate particulars every week of the amount of work done and at a general Officers' Conference in the Curragh there are queries as to how many square yards of paint Mr. Somebody or Sergeant Somebody applied during the past week. When our Defence Forces are reduced to that level they become a joke, but a costly joke. There is no use in having a Defence Force if it is going to be a joke and if it is going to be used in that way. Any person who knows the mind of the ordinary young recruit who joins the Army nowadays is fully aware that his whole anxiety is to get out of it as quickly as he can.

I want the Minister to realise that when I speak in this fashion I am speaking not for the purpose of criticising but for the purpose of pointing out that Temporary Provisions Acts year after year have contributed, in themselves, largely to the state of dissatisfaction that exists and to the state that is making it impossible to build up the units that we have to their full strength. There would appear to be some objection, I do not know what it is, by Governments, and now we have had three of them in succession, to bringing in before this House a Defence Forces Bill that could be thoroughly examined and approved of as the best instrument for securing, regulating and controlling the Defence Forces.

Twenty-three years ago the then Minister for Justice—he was acting-President of the Government at the time—came to this House and told the members of the great fundamental objection he had to any military officers having a sense of proprietorship. I think the Minister at that time was fundamentally right, and the Dáil approved of the ideals that he had at the time in regard to military control. A section was inserted into the Ministers' and Secretaries' Act about that time requiring that service on the Council of Defence would be limited to a period of three years. That was a wise provision. That was a sound provision. From that time until 1932 the principle then laid down and accepted was applied. Every three years there was a new officer going up to one of the appointments on the Council of Defence. There was a natural flow of fresh experience right up to the top. The result of that was that the Defence Forces had reached their highest degree of efficiency in that period. Now, Fianna Fáil—for reasons that I have never been able to understand—decided to change that policy. When one of the members of the Council of Defence completed his three-year period the Fianna Fáil Government simply reappointed him for another three years.

We have not had any mutinies since 1932.

The comment is worthy of the Deputy. I am trying to deal with this matter in a sensible and, I hope, responsible way.

I am telling you that since——

If the Deputy knew anything he would know that the principle to which I have referred was introduced as a result of a mutiny. Deputy Major de Valera seems to agree with me on that.

Major de Valera

Do not take me as agreeing with anything at the moment.

I can only judge what I see for myself. When I see the Deputy shaking his head in obvious disagreement with a statement made by a member of his own Party I naturally assume that the Deputy is agreeing with me.

Major de Valera

The word "agreeing" is your own.

The word merely puts it on the record.

Major de Valera

One can shake one's head in disagreement also.

As I say, as each officer completed his three-year term the Fianna Fáil Government—for reasons that I have never been able to understand—simply reappointed that officer for a further period of three years. Since 1932, therefore, we have had the same General Staff and the same military members of the Council of Defence except where vacancies occurred through death or retirement. Every officer and every soldier knows that since that very wise practice of changing the Council of Defence was departed from things have not been as satisfactory as they might have been.

Would the Deputy give an instance in what way?

I am sure I am precluded by the rules of this House from entering into personalities.

I realise I am treading on difficult ground.

Major de Valera

One could deal with the matter without introducing personalities. One could deal with the appointment and what went wrong with the particular appointment.

I shall deal with it in my own way. Had there been in the last 16 years an opportunity for officers to be promoted from the bottom right up to the top there would have been five changes in that period. The Minister for Defence, whoever he was, would have been able in that period to have the advice of officers who had gone through the mill from the ground-floor right up to the top. No matter how much efficiency obtained at the bottom, substantially the same Council of Defence was maintained over that long period. What do we find? We had to-day a most illuminating crosstalk between the present Minister and the ex-Minister for Defence as to the advice given to them by the Army staff in two particular matters. One was the question of training grounds and the other the question of billets, or camping grounds. One Minister, apparently, was advised that it would be wrong to make over part of a particular training ground for a racecourse and another Minister is advised that there is nothing wrong in it at all.

But it is a completely different scheme and a completely different proposal.

If the training ground was absolutely essential for training purposes — as apparently Deputy Traynor was so advised— then subsequent advice that part of that ground can be given away is not the same advice. If Deputy Traynor as Minister was advised that a certain encampment down in the South of Ireland was both necessary and suitable and if his successor is advised that it can be given away, then there is something radically wrong in the system of advice. I merely mention that matter because of the illuminating interchange between the present Minister and the former Minister across the floor of this House to-day. Each of them was apparently advised in a completely contrary way by the same staff. I could cite more examples, but I am prepared to deal with the one given across the floor this morning.

It is perfectly natural.

Major de Valera

I take it the Minister will defend his own staff. It is not fair to have an oblique attack on them when they cannot answer.

Unquestionably the Minister will.

That is the Minister's duty. He defends the advice he gets.

And defends the men from whom he gets it.

The Minister is in duty bound to do that.

There is a perfectly obvious and reasonable explanation of the point made by the Deputy.

Yes, and the Minister is bound to defend his staff. That is his duty.

Major de Valera

But it is you who are attacking them and not the Minister.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 14th December, 1948.
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