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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Mar 1949

Vol. 114 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Allegations of Fraud.

Mr. Boland

At Question Time to day, I asked the Minister for Justice the following question:

To ask the Minister for Justice if he will state (i) whether inquiries have been completed into the allegations first communicated to the Government in September, 1947, and referred to by the present Minister for External Affairs in Enniscorthy on the 31st January, 1948, that persons connected with the Government were guilty of fraud in connection with Government contracts, petrol rationing and price control Orders; and, if so, what the result of these inquiries has been; (ii) whether there was delay at any stage in pursuing these inquiries and, if so, the circumstances; (iii) whether any court proceedings have been instituted or are contemplated as a result of the inquiries and, if so, whether he will give particulars; (iv) finally, whether as a result of the inquiries it has been disclosed that any person connected with the last Government was in any way involved.

I now raise the matter because I was not satisfied with the reply I got. That reply was:

"The allegations referred to were to the following effect:

(1) that a certain firm which had contracts to supply turf to Government Departments had given short weight over a number of years;

(2) that this firm had obtained excessive quantities of petrol for the haulage of turf and had blackmarketed the petrol so obtained; and

(3) that a number of persons including a Fianna Fáil Senator and the chairman of a public board had obtained petrol irregularly from this firm.

The inquiries into the allegations have been completed and have resulted in the prosecution and conviction of the firm for contraventions of the rationing and price control Orders in connection with the sale of petrol and in the prosecution and conviction of two other firms for the purchase of petrol. The Attorney-General decided that there was not sufficient evidence to warrant any other prosecutions.

I am satisfied that there was no avoidable delay in the investigation of the allegations."

I will have to claim your indulgence, Sir, in going a little into the history of this case. Some time in September, 1947, Deputy de Valera, who was then Taoiseach, received a letter from a firm of solicitors containing complaints of the nature set down in this question and reply. He phoned to me in my office and asked me to go down to him, stating that he had received this letter and that he wanted to show it to me. I immediately left my office and went to his office where he handed me the letter. I saw immediately that, as the letter contained allegations of fraud, it was a matter for the police. Anybody with any experience whatever would have known that. This letter, as I say, was from a firm of solicitors and they had taken the unusual course of calling in two senior counsel instead of doing what any ordinary citizen would have done, that is, saying to this man who made the complaint—he was, by the way, a disgruntled employee of the firm about which he was making the charges: "This is a letter making allegations of fraud and you should bring it to the police." That is what I submit any ordinary sensible citizen would have done. Instead of doing that, this firm of solicitors who, I found during the general election, were agents for some of the Clann na Poblachta candidates in Dublin—I cannot even remember their name; they are not very well known, but I saw their names as agents for some of these candidates in Dublin during the general election—called in two political lawyers, one, the present Taoiseach and the other, the Minister for External Affairs. From them, they got the advice that this was a matter for public inquiry and that they should write to the Taoiseach and demand this inquiry.

That was the letter I was handed and in the envelope there was, so far as I can recollect, the advice of both these counsel, who, so far as I could see, were more interested in politics than in law. Otherwise, they would have done what any ordinary citizen would have done in the circumstances, that is, to tell the man to bring his case to the police as it was clearly a matter for investigation. I knew, when going to the Taoiseach's office that there was a chief superintendent of the guards in the Department of Justice and I phoned one of my officials and asked this chief superintendent to remain until I saw him, that I wanted to give him a letter. I went up to my office almost immediately, having given my opinion that it was a matter for the police, and handed this letter to the chief superintendent. I said to him: "I want you to investigate the matters contained in this letter as you would investigate any other charge or complaint made to the police." He read the letter and said he would. I said there was one thing I should like to know as soon as possible—"Is there any ground whatever for the allegation that any person connected with the Government is involved in this matter and I would like you to investigate that part as quickly as you can and let me know".

I do not remember exactly how many days elapsed, but within four or five days he came back and told me that this matter would take a long time to investigate, that there were all sorts of inquiries to be made of men who drove lorries. The allegation was that each of these lorries supplying turf to Government Departments was in receipt of ten gallons of petrol, of which one gallon was being kept back and blackmarketed. He said that all sorts of people would have to be interviewed and that they would have to try to trace the petrol to the place in which it was blackmarketed and that it would take a long time. I said I understood, but that naturally I was anxious to know if anyone connected with the Government was concerned. He said that there was no case whatever against this Senator, who was the only person who could be said to be in any way connected with the Government. He was a member of our Party and was sitting in the Seanad.

Mr. Boland

Four or five days.

The superintendent said that?

Mr. Boland

Yes. The other matters, he said, would naturally take a long time. I forgot all about the matter and I must say that I was surprised— I should not have been, knowing the gentleman as long as I do—when I read on the eve of the general election a report in the Sunday Independent of 1st February of a speech made by Mr. MacBride, then a candidate for election, in which he asked questions of the Taoiseach and suggested that these inquiries should have been completed, that there was ample time in which to have made these inquiries. I will not read the whole speech, but he said that these complaints had been sent in, that there had been ample time to get these matters investigated and brought before the court and he now wished to ask why that had not been done. Four months, I think, had elapsed then. The original complaints were made some time in September. I have not got any documents connected with this matter, as I left them all behind me, but it would be about four months later. I tried to raise the matter when the Minister's Estimate was before the House on 24th June, that is, four months later again, and I was told that the case was still sub judice, so that if we were guilty of suppression or of trying to cloak up anything, the new Government was also guilty, because four months had then elapsed.

I am glad that the Minister admitted to-day in his reply that there was no undue delay in investigating this matter and it is a pity that he did not continue on that line and apologise for the allegations made by his colleague, the Minister for External Affairs. He did not see fit to do that, however, but said instead in reply to supplementaries that there was evidence but not sufficient evidence to justify a prosecution of this Senator. That is directly in conflict with what I was told by the officer who investigated that matter. All he was charged with in the letter, I remember distinctly, was that he got petrol at a garage without coupons sometimes. He often gave coupons, but on some occasions he did not do so and there was no question of his not paying the proper price. Now, however, we are told that there was evidence but not sufficient evidence and that the Attorney-General had so advised. I was not only surprised but disgusted to hear the Minister make that statement because it was not correct and because the police officer who was used to these things was well aware that there were no grounds whatever for that charge against that particular person.

The mud-slinging of the Locke Distillery case was in full blast at that time and it was hoped further to damage the reputation of the Government by these statements. The matter was made public and as far as that was concerned it was all right to have it investigated, but when a candidate on the eve of an election started poking up this matter you have the worst form of malpractice. The least that should be done after this length of time is that the person who made that charge should apologise for it.

Will the Deputy agree that as a result of that charge certain people were tried and convicted?

Mr. Boland

Certainly I do, but they were not connected with the Government. I quite agree that they were prosecuted and rightly fined, but my point is that they were not even remotely connected with the Government at the time. It was a case involving a petrol garage man and the only one connected in any way with the Government was a member of the Seanad, who was alleged to have bought petrol sometimes without coupons. That is all that was in it. This politician was called in to advise as a lawyer—I do not know much about the Bar and I am glad I do not. I would not like to be associated with it in any way from what I have seen, but I thought that the least standard they would observe would be that if they were called in in a professional capacity to give advice they would not use that in a political capacity in an election.

Luckily I remember the thing well and I got an opportunity of answering it, but when allegations like that are thrown out some of the mud will stick and that was the object of that political mud-slinging lawyer. I am disgusted with the Minister and, although I should not be surprised, I am surprised that he should say that there was any evidence against anyone remotely connected with this Party.

I think, Sir, that it is desirable in the interests of the standards of public life in this country that this matter should be more fully examined than it is possible for us to do at this late hour and in a debate on the adjournment.

I agree with Deputy MacEntee.

Here we have a case where a dismissed employee—dismissed for some misconduct on his own part— attempts to seek revenge against his former employer. He consults a lawyer who takes the advice of two leaders of the Bar, presumably in their professional capacity, and then one of these gentlemen, furnished with information given to him in this professional way, takes advantage of his position as candidate in the general election to make——

On a point of order. The question of the conduct of these two lawyers was not raised in the supplementary question and I respectfully submit that the issue between the Deputy who raised the question and the Minister for Justice is the subject matter of the question and the Minister's reply.

Before the Chair deals with that I should like to direct attention to the terms of Question 37:—

"allegations first communicated to the Government in September, 1947, and referred to by the present Minister for External Affairs in Enniscorthy on the 31st January, 1948, that persons connected with the Government were guilty of fraud in connection with Government contracts, petrol rationing and price control Orders."

Those were the charges which were made by the present Minister for External Affairs, and made upon what foundation? Upon the word of a dismissed employee who charged a public man, not a member of the Government——

If I may say it on a point of order, Deputy MacEntee has thought fit to suggest to the House that I and the Taoiseach had disclosed information obtained by us in our professional capacity——

That is not a point of order.

——without the authorisation of our clients. That is not so and I would ask Deputy MacEntee to accept that.

I will accept it, certainly, if the Minister for External Affairs says that he made these allegations having been authorised by his client to make them. Of course it at once absolves the Minister for External Affairs from any suggestion that he has been guilty of what I should regard as a breach of ordinary professional standards. At the same time I think I am entitled to say that on the word of a dismissed employee and with the authority of that employee—and I think it betrays a lamentable lack of judgment, of discretion and of prudence for a person who was then a leader of a Party—he made an accusation affecting the honour and the conduct of a public man. After all, men who are engaged in public life are entitled to be treated with the same sort of fairness as ordinary private citizens would be treated.

It is about time Deputy MacEntee realised that.

That form was only brought into the question to indicate the particular matter of the question:

"Allegations...referred to by the present Minister for External Affairs."

I take it that that was put into the question to indicate to what the Deputy who put down the question wanted to draw attention.

It has been admitted that as a result of this information people were prosecuted and duly convicted. Is it in order for a Deputy in this House, after a conviction has been had, to challenge the validity of that conviction?

The Chair wants information as to whether this matter came before the court and a conviction was secured.

I admit that a conviction was secured but no charge was brought in court or a conviction secured against any person connected with the Government.

The Minister must get ten minutes.

I suggested to Deputy Boland this morning that he might leave this matter where it was. I do not think that this is either assisting the people who were charged and convicted or the people upon whom suspicion was cast. I regret that Deputy Boland saw fit to attack any person who goes into the witness box and secures a conviction in which the punishments inflicted are of the nature, on appeal, of £1,000 fine; £735 fine; £500 fine and £525 fine. It is a rather significant fact that all the people involved in these activities sprung from the same county. This person who gave evidence consulted a solicitor upon a claim that he was making and that solicitor wrote this letter to the Taoiseach which Deputy Boland has referred to. The reason that he wrote to the Taoiseach—he makes it clear in his letter—was that to secure a conviction it was necessary that all papers and documents in the various Departments of State and in the firms should be immediately seized. I do not know whether that was done or not. I do know there were documents got from the firms but, strange as it may seem— I am not going to quote from the file— as far as I can see there was no note that anything was done about it from 27th September until two days after my appointment as Minister for Justice when I made an inquiry as to what had happened in the case and I got a report dated 20th February from the Civic Guards. Indeed Deputy Boland surprised me when he said that this efficient police officer assured him in less than five days after the letter was written that there was not a scintilla of evidence.

Mr. Boland

Against one man.

There is more than one.

Mr. Boland

I was referring only to the Senator. Be fair to me.

There is a person who was connected with the Government and there are other persons. I know all about it. I accept the Deputy's word that the superintendent told him that. But, I respectfully suggest, that that should have been noted on the file. It is rather peculiar that it was not until I asked for the report two days after the election that it was forthcoming. The papers were then referred to the Attorney-General and the Attorney-General directed a prosecution. He advised that in the case of these two people there was not sufficient evidence to secure a conviction. I think it was lucky for these two fellows that there was a change of Attorney-General, because you would be compelled to prosecute them.

Mr. Boland

That is a slander.

It is not. We could leave it when there was no evidence. I will say that if there was the same kind of evidence against them for anything else in, say, 1941 or 1942 it would be sufficient to intern them.

Mr. Boland

More slander.

It is not slander. The slander was on the Taoiseach when he says that there were political lawyers and mud slingers. When that is the language that a former Minister of State uses towards two prominent members of this Government, one the Leader, he should think twice about slander. I hate this. I do not want it.

Mr. Boland

No wonder you do.

I think you should hate it more. I appealed to you this morning with the best intentions.

Do not be hypocritical.

I am not a little snob like you. I say exactly what I think and what I mean. I will not play second fiddle to anybody on that. I think it is better that this matter should be left there. This officer did his best and he informed me. I will say in regard to my predecessor that the biggest difficulty that he had in securing evidence was that the documents were not forthcoming, the documents had been destroyed.

Mr. Boland

Where?

In Government offices.

Mr. Boland

In Government offices?

They were not forthcoming and were not available.

Mr. Boland

I do not believe it.

I told you this morning and I will give you the information privately. I will show you the file if you like.

Mr. Boland

I should like to see it.

I think this matter should have been left there. I have purposely avoided naming the firms or doing anything so that there could be no question about it. The Government is a corporate body. It has no soul to be damned; it has a body to be kicked. These individuals have bodies. They are not known now. If you keep at it long enough, the names will be known. I do not think it is in the interests of anybody that they should be disclosed.

If they did wrong, why should they not be disclosed?

In view of the Minister's statement that State documents were destroyed, why not hold an inquiry?

I am entitled to my ten minutes to reply and I will take it.

Hold an inquiry.

A court of inquiry was suggested by this solicitor, not by the counsel, and the reason was that he knew that if the firms—I am leaving out the Senator, leaving out anybody else—got news of this coming, there would be no records there.

If the Minister says that State documents have disappeared from Government files will he hold an inquiry into that?

There were records; otherwise how could the firms be convicted?

There were no records in the Government offices where they should have been.

That is untrue. There were not records to support false charges.

The records have disappeared; they were taken away.

There was no foundation for the charges.

If Deputy MacEntee doubts my word or if any Deputy on the Opposition Benches doubts my word, I am sure that Deputy Boland will accept this police officer's word that the documents were destroyed.

Mr. Boland

If he told me that, I would believe him.

He says it. It is in this. The last thing I want to do is to cite what any police officer said.

Mr. Boland

You did not use that at the election time.

Mr. Boland

Your colleague did.

If I knew it, perhaps I might if I was answering Deputy MacEntee with regard to something, because he can draw out of people what would not otherwise come forth.

Mr. Boland

If the rottenness was not there it would not be drawn out.

He is a plaster and a boil upon the body politic of Fianna Fáil.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 23rd March, 1949.

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