asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce (i) whether he had noted that it had been stated in Dáil Éireann on Thursday, 31st March, that documents relating to the allegations made by the Minister for External Affairs in a speech at Enniscorthy as reported in the Press on February 1st, 1948, had been abstracted from files in his Department; (ii) whether he was satisfied, as a result of inquiries, that, in fact, such abstraction of documents had taken place; (iii) whether investigations had been instituted in his Department to ascertain who had taken the documents; (iv) if such investigation was carried out, to state the nature of it and the officers by whom it was undertaken; (v) if such an investigation has not yet been made, whether he will now have one carried out either (a) by a committee of senior officers not below the rank of principal officer drawn from Departments other than the Departments of Defence, Industry and Commerce, and the Office of the Commissioners of Public Works or (b) by the Detective Branch of the Garda Síochána, preferably the latter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Departmental Documents.
I am aware of the statement to which the Deputy refers at (i) in his question. When the Garda Síochána were making inquiries about the petrol irregularities to which this and earlier questions referred, they asked to be provided with the petrol record cards in the case of a particular individual for the period from March, 1940, to February, 1943. It was always the practice in the Department of Supplies and it has been the practice in the Department of Industry and Commerce to destroy petrol record cards 12 months after the period to which they relate. The petrol record cards in respect of the individual case on which the Garda were inquiring for the period covered by the inquiry had been destroyed in accordance with this practice. Certain papers relating to the issue of petrol to Deputies and Senators between September, 1939, and January, 1943, are missing from the files of my Department. This matter has been investigated by the senior officers of my Department, and I do not propose to have an investigation of the kind suggested by the Deputy.
Will the Minister state whether the records referring to the petrol issued to Deputies between 1939 and 1943 are in any way related to the allegations made by the Minister for External Affairs in January, 1948, and, in particular, whether they are in any way related to the petrol offences with which certain persons were charged as detailed to the House by the Minister for Justice on Thursday last?
As nearly half the file is missing I could not answer that question.
Very well.
Will the Minister state what file relating to petrol rationing could have existed in 1939?
A file which was opened by the Deputy himself when he was Minister in September, 1939.
When did petrol rationing begin?
I am talking about a file which was opened by a note dealing with petrol under the Deputy's own hand and which is still on the file.
Before there was any petrol rationing at all?
I do not know. There is nothing to laugh about. All I know is that the Deputy opened this file dealing with petrol issues in September, 1939. It is there in his own handwriting.
Will the Minister make the results of the investigation referred to by him in his reply available to the House?
The investigations are still continuing. All I can say is that up to the present the investigations made by the officers of my Department have failed to locate the missing documents.
That is not the point I asked. I wish to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that I asked him to state who had taken the documents.
If I did that I should be giving the Deputy a different answer.
That is all very well. The Minister's colleague has made a charge against a permanent officer of this State. I think we are entitled to know whether any serious investigations have been made to ascertain who. in fact, took the documents if they are missing.
My colleague did not make any such charge against permanent or other officers of this State. Very many documents covering a period of over three years are missing from the file.
Who took them?
Is the Minister making an allegation against the officers in charge of the file?
I am making no allegations. I am stating a fact. The documents covering the period I mentioned are missing from the file. I am not in a position to tell the House how they come to be missing. I am merely stating a fact.
The Minister is suggesting that these documents relate to a particular matter.
I say that the entire file from September, 1939, up to the present relates to the issue of petrol to Deputies and Senators and to nothing else.
Has that any relevance to the matter of the allegations made in this House ?
Certainly.
Why?
Because one of the persons mentioned was a member of the Oireachtas.
Was it alleged that as a member of the Oireachtas he received petrol to which he was not entitled ?
I am answering the question I am asked here. That question is whether documents are or are not missing. I am stating the fact that documents are missing from the file dealing with petrol issues to Deputies and Senators from the period September, 1939, to January, 1943.
Is it not a fact that the allegation was made that petrol was given without coupons to certain people by a garage proprietor? What has that allegation to do with a file dealing with petrol issues to Senators and Deputies ?
Any allegation that is made in relation to the issue of petrol to any member of the Oireachtas who was a member of the Oireachtas between September, 1939, and January, 1943, must have a bearing on it.
Surely the question of the issue of petrol coupons to the members of the Oireachtas has nothing to do with an allegation that a member got petrol without coupons.
It could have. If we had the documents to check up on we might know that.
How could you? Does the Minister intend to investigate the circumstances under which the documents which he alleges are missing were taken from a file and will the result of the investigation be communicated to the Dáil?
As far as I am concerned I have instructed the senior officers of my Department to investigate this matter fully. They have investigated it and they have established that, in relation to the file to which I am now referring, the documents from that file are missing. So far they have not been able to ascertain what became of those documents. So far as other files are concerned investigations are still proceeding.
Has any officer of the Department alleged or suggested that documents were removed from the file under the orders of anybody?
I am not going to allow the Deputy to drag the officers of the Department into this.
Is the Minister endeavouring to make the suggestion that I or some other Minister ordered the removal of the documents?
I have tried to make it perfectly clear that I am not suggesting anything beyond stating the fact—and it is a fact—that documents are missing from a file from September, 1939, to January, 1943. I am making no suggestions at all.
In fairness to me, in view of the possibility that he may be misunderstood, will the Minister say if any officer of the Department has suggested during this investigation that he was ordered to remove documents from the file?
Of course not.
That is not the way it would be done.
More professional slander.
I made a statement a while ago to the effect that certain Deputies might be deprived of further participation in debate to-day. The two worst offenders were Deputies Con Lehane and Patrick Smith and they are still persisting.