Although I reported progress last night, on consideration I do not think there is anything I can add to what has already been said on this Estimate. In view of the amount of time that has been spent on it and in view of the amount of ground that has been covered I think the Minister might be grateful to me if I leave him the opportunity of getting in as soon as possible.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).
I wish to make a few remarks on this Estimate. I am particularly interested in the reduction of £30,000 in the Estimate for heating and cleaning. I have been amazed to learn here that the old custom of having the children clean the schools is still in existence in some of the rural areas. I can only attribute that to lack of funds to employ a person to do that work properly. It is amazing that that old custom so reminiscent of the Ascendancy days should still obtain in the year 1949 and should have continued under two native Governments. I remember in my young days school rooms choked with clouds of dust and children using the most primitive methods of cleaning them. From the health point of view one can understand how injurious that is particularly in the case of delicate children. Instead of reducing that sum the Minister should increase it so that a proper person might be employed to look after the heating and the cleaning of the schools. The wage of such a person would not be very high in the rural areas. It is easy to get people to undertake that work in those areas. That should be done. There is a permanent caretaker in the vocational schools. There are far more pupils attending the primary schools than the vocational schools. Why should provision not be made for them? The primary schools get into a much worse state than do the vocational schools. The Minister has promised a general reform of educational methods. He is setting up a committee to improve the present methods. I think the heating and cleaning of the schools should be one of the principal matters to be considered by such a committee. We hear a good deal about the health of the children. If children have not got clean schools and homes we can hardly expect them to be healthy men and women in later life. If we had clean schools and clean homes there would be much less need for sanatoria. There is a duty on those in charge of education to look after these matters. I hope the Minister will give the problem of heating and cleaning our schools sympathetic consideration.
I disagree with the remarks made by Deputy Mrs. Redmond last evening on the evils arising from the education of our children through the medium of Irish. I have some little experience of children at school in rural Ireland. I can honestly state that they have suffered no disadvantages whatsover through being taught through Irish. I know plenty of teachers and they tell me that they have never met children who had any difficulty in learning Irish any more than any other subject. If children are dull in other subjects they will naturally be dull at Irish, too. In homes where the parents are not sympathetic towards the language and where there is no love for it the children will naturally be disinclined to learn it. In some of our cities and towns there are parents who would rather hear their children speak the King's English. It is sad to think that an Irish woman would decry our native tongue in our own Parliament. The Minister has a fluent knowledge of the language. He was the best choice the inter-Party Government made when they appointed him Minister for Education. While he is Minister for Education we can be assured that there will be no slackening in the teaching of the language. If the children did not learn Irish in the schools where would they learn it? There are some who believe that the Gaeltacht will keep the language alive. The amount of money spent on the Gaeltacht has been reduced and naturally the people will not have the same interest keeping the language alive there. If that happens the language will die. A people without a language is not worthy to be called a nation. I appeal to the Minister not to let the language die. Our children at school have a fairly good knowledge of it now. The people on the whole are interested in it. Their children will be the parents of to-morrow and they in turn will teach it to their children. It is shocking that there should be people in this State who would try to cause antagonism towards the language by public speeches and propaganda. That is deplorable. I appeal to the Minister to do all he can to strengthen the language and propagate its use in every home. I often wonder what those children would say if some Minister for Education decided that subjects should be taught through the medium of French or Italian. Possibly they might think that an improvement. There are some people who think that Irish would spoil their children's accents. I know people who are old and middle-aged now who thought they had covered wonderful ground when they had learned the first and second book of O'Growney. I believe that our Irish boys and girls will continue to learn Irish despite all the propaganda. Foreigners on the streets of Dublin always converse, with each other in their own language. Why should we be afraid to speak our language even if we only have a smattering of it? I hope that this is the last time on which I shall hear Deputy Mrs. Redmond decry the teaching of our language.
I realise that Deputy Mrs. Redmond has a perfect right to give her views on the question of the teaching of Irish and its preservation and, realising that, I think we can safely assume that there is no necessity for Deputy Mrs. Rice or any other Deputy to urge upon the Minister for Education the necessity for doing everything possible to ensure that the Irish language is taught in the schools and to secure its preservation. I think Deputies will agree that the Minister for Education has at all times proved himself a real champion of the revival of the Irish language and it is only a waste of time to ask him to do everything possible to maintain it in the schools. I am sure Deputies also will agree that the teachers, as one of the most patriotic bodies in the country, will, themselves, without any compulsion whatever, do their utmost for the preservation and advancement of the Irish language. There are, of course, differences of opinion amongst teachers and various educationists as to the best methods by which the language should be taught in the schools, by which it should be preserved and made as quickly as possible the spoken language of the people. While it has been more or less the policy of the Department that subjects should be taught through the medium of Irish, where certain conditions exist, the vast majority of teachers hold that the language can best be preserved by teaching it as an ordinary school subject, but as an obligatory subject, of course, and that only where Irish is the home language of the children should subjects be taught through the medium of Irish. Great difficulty has arisen in areas outside the Fior-Ghaeltacht from attempts to teach infants solely through Irish. However, certain concessions have been made from time to time and it is really left more or less now in the hands of the teachers to deal with the teaching of Irish in accordance with the views which they themselves may hold as to how best it may be done.
As 90 per cent. of the children of this country must be content with the education they receive in the primary schools, I think everything possible should be done by the authorities concerned to remove every obstacle which may impede the educational progress of the children. I do not suggest that the present Minister for Education can remove all the impediments with one stroke of the pen. In fact, I am delighted to be able to say that, during the short time he has been in office, he has done very many things which are likely to remove many of these difficulties and finally to bring about the realisation of the demands of those who are likely to know best the methods by which Irish education can be advanced.
Taking some of the factors likely to improve education in this country, there would be, first of all, a well-paid, contented and fully qualified body of teachers; secondly, well-built, well-equipped, well-heated and well-cleaned schools; thirdly, an ideal system of directorship or inspection and fourthly, a suitable and well-balanced curriculum. The question of teachers' salaries, being at present dealt with by the salary committee, need not be referred to by me but we do hope that the findings of that committee will be implemented by the Minister as soon as possible after they have been placed at his disposal.
As regards the schools, very many of them, as everybody knows, are in a shocking condition and are entirely unsuitable for the education of children. We must realise that during the emergency period very much could not be done in the building of new schools or even in the repair of old ones. During the past two or three years some advance has been made in this respect. I would ask the Minister that in the case of very many schools, which are not entirely in a most dilapidated condition awaiting the building of new schools, certain necessary repairs should be carried out in order to make these old schools some way habitable in the intervening period.
A great deal of difficulty exists as regards the heating and cleaning of schools. It is assumed that the managers are responsible. Of course that responsibility, because of the conditions which prevail, really falls on the teachers. This is the case especially in rural schools. After all, managers, I suppose, have no funds at their disposal apart from the grant they get from the Department of Education but that is entirely inadequate. Furthermore, the grant should not be given on the basis of the average because if we take an instance of a school where there would be an average of 85 and where there are two rooms, these two rooms must be heated and cleaned to the same extent as a two-roomed school where the average might be only 25 or 30. Therefore the method of allocating grants for the heating and cleaning of schools is entirely wrong and it is about time that something was done to remove this black spot in the field of education. I think it would be a good idea, perhaps, if the Minister, having before him the success of the conference which brought about the panel system in connection with the retention of assistant and junior assistant mistresses, were to call together a conference of managers, teachers and of representatives of the Departments concerned—Education and Finance— to try to hammer out some scheme by which the heating and cleaning of schools would be placed on a proper basis.
Some Deputy said that the grants were not applied for in the country. That is not true so far as the city is concerned.
I should be surprised to hear that. In that case it would be a matter for the Department to see that that was done.
If that is so, it is a very serious matter.
It is becoming a serious matter and I think the time has come when something must be done and done quickly to remedy it. I need not refer to the system of inspection at present in force but I think I remember the Minister in his statement last year mentioned that inspectors would no longer be known by that name but would be known as directors of education. I think it would be a good thing if he made an Order or regulation to enforce that. In the past there was much friction between teachers and inspectors and it would be a good thing if the actual name were changed. It might help to bring about more harmonious relations although I will say that the complaints are not now by any means as numerous as they used to be once. As regards the programme, some Deputies, when mentioning subjects which should be taught in schools, referred to the teaching of agriculture, domestic economy, rural science and so on. If those people were put into an ordinary national school and asked to teach those additional subjects they would find that the whole work of the school would be turned upside down and that it would be impossible to carry out any such programme. As it is, when we speak of the teaching of Irish it includes oral Irish, reading, grammar, explanations of various kinds and written Irish. The same applies in the case of English. So when you speak of Irish alone, it is really three subjects at least and the same applies in the case of English. Then geography, history, singing and other subjects must be taken into consideration. It would be utterly impossible to carry out a programme in the course of the year if you had these other subjects as well. Besides, it would be impossible to expect teachers to supply the equipment for the teaching of these subjects. As it is, lady teachers have a real grievance in that they have to supply material for needlework and so also is the case with domestic economy teachers. There is no use in thinking, that any extra subjects could be added to the programme.
Deputies have mentioned that the children of the present day are not as well taught as the children of the past. In the past, very many years ago, you had mostly the three R's—reading, writing and arithmetic, and perhaps geography, too. There was quite sufficient time, of course, to teach those subjects well. The children of those days may have had a better knowledge of those subjects than is the case nowadays, but my experience, and I think the experience of all teachers, is that the children of the present day have a better general knowledge. They may not have such a particular knowledge of a particular subject but, on the whole, they are better equipped for the future than were the children of the past. I think that there may be one thing mitigating against their education, namely, lack of parental control. In our young days parents saw to it that children learned all their lessons and did their homework, but I am afraid that all that is a thing of the past now. We see children in the villages and towns, and I suppose in the cities too, roaming about late at night when they should be at home under the control of their parents. However, I suppose we can pass no legislation or say or do anything that would remedy that state of affairs. Perhaps it would be for the Church to interfere in that instance.
The Minister abolished the system of rating during the past year. I was very surprised to hear Deputy O'Rourke who, I understand, is a national teacher, remark that he did not think it was fair that teachers who had been highly efficient for years would now be placed on the same level as teachers who were not so efficient. The teachers who have been highly efficient for years have not lost anything by reason of the fact that rating is done away with. They still hold the salary to which they could attain. Does Deputy O'Rourke realise, when he makes that remark about highly efficient teachers, that he is saying something very derogatory in regard to teachers who are efficient? After all, the line between efficient and highly efficient in any school is very thin indeed. I was pleased to see that efficient teachers were at last raised to the standard which they deserve, not so much from the "highly efficient" point of view as that all teachers who work satisfactorily will receive the same salaries. One portion of the rating system is still in operation, and that is the giving of merit marks in respect of special subjects.
Another matter which is a source of difficulty to teachers is the primary certificate. It is held that children who are only 14 years of age are not really fit subjects to undergo a pretty difficult examination. If there is to be such an examination at all or if there is the necessity for such a certificate— which perhaps there is—the time at which the examination should be held is when the child is 16 years of age. I hope that at some future date, when the Minister is likely to raise the school-leaving age, an alteration will be made in regard to the primary certificate examination to the extent that that examination will take place at the end of the higher primary course, as I may call it, for children between 14 and 16 years of age.
I was very pleased to hear the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement to-day make provision for increased pensions for our pensioned teachers. I should like to thank the Minister for Education for having put forward a long time ago a scheme making provision for those increases. I am sure that these poor old men and women, many of whom have very small pensions, will be delighted to learn that from a certain date they will receive a substantial increase in the miserable pensions some of them have been in receipt of in the past. I hope it will be made retrospective as far back as possible.
I can assure the Minister that he has the confidence of the teachers. During his term of office he has been doing his best and we feel sure that before his term of office expires he will remove all difficulties and grievances from the paths of the teachers, primary, secondary and vocational, which impede the progress of education in this country. A contented body of teachers is certainly likely to do better work than those who would be hampered at all stages by various difficulties with regard to salary, conditions of service, etc. Therefore we may look forward to a period when the children of this country will be as well educated as the children of any country in the world, and, as has been said, the progress of a nation depends on the education of its people.
Ba mhaith liom dá n-abródh an tAire, má tá an t-eolas aige, cé mhéid den mhéid atá luaite sa Cháinfhaisnéis a tugadh isteach inniu atá curtha i leataoibh do na hiarmhúinteoirí chun breis pinsin a thabhairt dóibh. An bhfuil an t-eolas sin ag an Aire?
Tabharfaidh mé roinnt eolais mar gheall air nuair a bheidh mé ag freagairt.
Ba mhaith liom freisin dá n-abródh an tAire cé hiad na haicmí iarmhúinteoirí a gheobhas breis, cé hiad na haicmí— daoine, mar shampla, a bhfuil £3 pinsin acu cheana go mbeidh sé le fáil acu agus an mbeidh an méid faoin gcéad céanna le fáil ag gach iarmhúinteoir.
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon tseirbhís phoiblí is mó a níos leas do na ceantracha bochta ná an t-oideachas. Mar gheall air sin, ba mhaith liom eolas d'fháil ón Aire cen dul chun cinn atá déanta le scoileanna gairm-oideachais a sholáthar sna ceantracha sin. Bhí scéim mór beartaithe ag an iar-Aire— tá mé ag ceapadh go raibh sé ag brath ar chéad ceann acu seo a chur ar bun—agus nuair a tháinig an Rialtas seo isteach, do gearradh anuas an méid sin ar fad. Tar éis tréan-iarratas ó Choiste Gairm-Oideachais Chontae na Gaillimhe, do socraíodh ar thrí cinn acu a thógáil in iarthar na Gaillimhe agus ba mhaith liom d'fháil amach anois ón Aire cén t-am a tosófar ar na trí cinn sin a thógáil. Tá ceann acu in Árainn, ceann eile ar an gCnoc agus ceann eile ar an gCloich Bhric. Teastuíonn gairm-oideachas go dian ó na daoine óga ansin. Níl an seans céanna ag na daoine óga ansin obair a sholáthar dóibh féin agus atá ag an taos óg in áiteanna eile.
Freisin, ba mhaith liom cur ina luí ar an Aire go bhfuil obair mhór le déanamh thiar i gConamara i dtaobh na scoileanna náisiúnta d'fheabhsú, agus ina lán áiteanna cinn nua a thógáil. Do chuir mé ceist air le gairid i dtaobh ceann amháin nach bhfuil dídean ag na daltaí ann ón mbáisteach agus ón gclocha-shneachta, tá an ceann chomh dona sin.
Nuair a théann an cigire thart agus nuair a fheiceann sé droch-staid ar an scoil, ba cheart go ndéanfadh sé tuarascáil faoi leith i dtaobh na scoile sin agus go gcuirfeadh sé ina luí ar an Roinn gur ceart rud éigin a dhéanamh, rud sealadach, go dtí go bhféadfaí rud seasta a dhéanamh. Tá mé ag tagairt anois do Scoil Muigh Inse i bparóiste Cárna. Sin é an ceann is measa a thagann i mo chuimhne anois ach tá cinn eile ann freisin.
Ba mhaith liom an tAire a mholadh de bharr an deontas do Thaibhdhearc na Gaillimhe a mhéadú agus tá súil agam go mbainfear an buntáiste is mó is féidir as an méid sin airgid. Tá dream inniúl i bhfeighil na Taibhdhearca, ach, mar tá fhios ag an Aire, is beag is féidir a dhéanamh i dtaobh drámaíochta mara féidir dream seasta a chothú. Tagann daoine óga go hOllscoil na Gaillimhe ón nGaeltacht nó tagann siad ag obair i nGaillimh ach imíonn siad arís. Nuair a fáightear daoine maithe ba chóir go mbeadh sé ar chumas lucht stuírtha na Taibhdhearca na daoine sin a choinneáil mar fhoireann seasta. Sin é an rud is mó atá ag coinneáil an Taibhdhearc siar. Mar gheall ar sin, molaim an tAire faoin méadú sin a thabhairt don Taibhdheare.
Ceann de na bealaí is fearr le labhairt na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn an drámaíocht chéanna, agus ós rud é go bhfuil mé ag tagairt don drámaíocht, tá gaol gar idir an drámaíocht agus na scannáin agus ní maith liom a fheiceáil sa Mheastachán seo go bhfuil airgead na scannán gearrtha anuas. Tá dhá chinéal deontas airgid ann agus tá ceann aca gearrtha ó £2,000 go dtí £1,000 agus tá an ceann eile, £2,500, beagnach glannta amach ar fad. Is é mo thuairim gur ceart don Ríaltas, pé ar bith Ríaltas a bheas ann, cuidiú le daoine atá ag iarraidh scannáin i nGaeilge a sholáthar. Chonnaic mé roinnt acu, na cinn bheaga, agus bhíodar an-mhaith; bhí an Ghaeilge antsoiléir agus rinneadh na scannáin ar ábhair stairiúla. Bhain ceann aca le Fr. Damien agus ceann eile le scéal tús ghearradh na bolgaí agus rudaí eile mar sin. Bhain ceann eile le geáitsí móra mara a bhí ar siúl ar chóstaí Mheiricá, rudaí a thaithneódh leis an aos óg. Bhíodar go léir go han-mhaith agus ba mhaith an rud é dá soláthraítí tuille dióbh sin. Tá deis in áiteacha anseo agus ansúd na scannáin a thaispeáint. Tá ceann fáighte le goirid ag na Bráithre i Leitir Fraic agus bíonn léiriú aca chuile Dhomhnach. Ní dóígh liom gur scannáin Ghaeilge a bhiós acu mar ní dóigh liom go bhfuil siad le fáil acu.
Ba mhaith liom freisin, rud eicínt a chloisteáil ón Aire faoin treoir a cuireadh amach le goirid ón Roinn go dtí na múinteoirí sa nGaeltacht Béarla a mhúineadh níos fearr. Má cuireadh, níl mé ag cur in aghaidh an ruda sin, ach iarraim ar an Aire treoir eile a chur amach, a ghabhfadh leis an treoir sin, labhairt na Gaeilge a mhúineadh a bhfad níos fearr taobh amuigh den nGaeltacht. Rinneas tagairt dó sin ceanna. Bhí mé ag labhairt le múinteoirí taobh amuigh den nGaeltacht a bhfuil spéis acu sa nGaeilge agus dúradar, maidir leis an Primary Cert., gur tugadh an-iomarca aire do scríobh agus léamh na Gaeilge agus go raibh labhairt na Gaeilge fágtha beagnach i leataoibh. Má tá an t-ullmhú don teastas sin ag cur isteach ar labhairt na Gaeilge sna scoileanna, ba mhaith liom go mbreathnódh an tAire isteach ann agus go n-athróchadh sé an clár.
Is iomaí sin tagairt a rinneadh ar an Meastachán seo le dhá lá anuas don nGaeltacht agus tá fhios ag muintir na Gaeltachta go bhfuil dualgas orthu féin i dtaobh na Gaeilge, ach deir siad liomsa: "cén mhaith do mhuintir na Gaeltachta bheith ag cothú na Gaeilge don náisiún mura dteastaíonn sí ó mhuintir na hÉireann? Cén fáth an mbeadh muide ag coinnéail ár gclann siar—" adeir cuid acu—"mura bhfuil meas ar an oidhreacht atá againn."? Tá muintir na Gaeltachta ag coinneáil, ag caomhúint, ag sábháil agus ag cleachtadh na Gaeilge ar mhaithe le muintir na hÉireann agus má brúitear isteach ina gceann nach dteastaíonn sí uathu, fágfaigh siad an Ghaeilge ar leataoibh. I ngeall air sin, táim ag iarraidh ar an Aire labhairt na Gaeilge sna scoileana taobh amuigh den Gaeltacht a spreagadh níos fearr ná mar atá á dhéanamh faoi láthair.
Baineann sé sin le ceist chuspóir an Rialtais. Chuir an Teachta Donnchadh Ó Briain ceist ar an Aire. Táim ag ceapadh gurb é sin an pointe is mó, chomh fada agus a bhaineas an Meastachán seo le hathbheóchaint na Gaeilge. Níl mise ag rá go bhfuil an dualgas sin ar fad ar an Aire Oideachais, ach tá páirt mhór ag Aire an Oideachais san obair. Chomh fada agus a bhaineas seirbhís ar bith le saol na Gaeltachta is ceart ceist a chur ar pé ar bith Aire atá i mbun na seirbhíse sin. Cuidím mar sin leis an Teachta Ó Briain sa gceist sin a chuir sé ar an Aire i dtaobh cuspóirí an Rialtais.
Dheineas iarracht inné iarraidh ar an Teachta Ó Briain an cheist a mhíniú dhom agus níor dhein sé go ró-bheacht é.
Isé an cheist chéanna atá luaite agam féin. Níl fhios agam an fíor, bréagach go bhfuil an Rialtas ag iarraidh múineadh an Bhéarla a chur chun cinn níos fearr sa nGaeltacht. Níl mé ag cur in a aghaidh sin má coinnítear an Ghaeilge beó freisin.
Ar thug an Teachta a leithéid fa ndeara i scoilanna i nGaillimh?
Níl eolas agam ar an gceist go pearsanta. Nílim in aghaidh an Bhéarla a mhúineadh.—
Tá fhios agam.
—ach in aghaidh iompó mhuintir na Gaeltachta ar Bhéarla. Ba mhaith liom a rá le muintir na Gaeltachta go bhfuil pé ar bith eolas atá uathu ar mhaithe lena gclann le tabhairt dóibh ag pé ar bith Rialtas a bheas i mbun na tíre, ach ba cheart don Rialtas bheith chomh díograsach céanna faoi labhairt na Gaeilge taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Is minic a chuir mé ceist ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta i dtaobh na cainte a chuala mé féin go minic go raibh an Ghaeltacht ag dul siar agus go raibh muintir na Gaeltachta ag eirí as an nGaeilge, agus nuair a chuir mé féin ceist orthu fuair mé an freagra seo: "Is mó an tsuim, is mó an spéis, a chuirfimis i muintir na Gaillimhe, muintir Baile Atha Cliath, nó muintir na gceantracha amuigh dá bhfeicfimis iad ag brú isteach go dtí cinema nó áit ar bith eile a mbéadh Gaeilge ar siúl ann ná bheith ag tabhairt léachta dúinn fhéin i dtaobh an Ghaeltacht a shábháil agus Gaeilge a labhairt i gcónaí le n-ár gclainn." Isé mo thuairim go bhfuil an iomarca den teagasc á thabhairt do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus gan sampla dá réir á thaispéaint dóibh ag na daoine ar an taobh amuigh. Tá siad ag breathnú go han-ghéar ar na daoine amuigh agus tá siad chomh cliste le dream ar bith sa tír. Sin é an fáth gur chuidigh mé leis an gceist a chuir an Teachta Ó Briain ar an Aire i dtaobh cuspóir an Rialtais.
Maidir leis an gComhairle Oideachais, bhí fhios agam féin ó chaint a chuala mé go raibh go leor daoine sa tír agus bhíodar den tuairim nach ceart bacadh leis an gceist sin, Comhairle Oideachais a chur ar bun ach leis an Ghaeilge a chur d'réir a chéile as chlar na scoileanna agus deire a chur láithreach leis an rud sin ar a dtugtar "compulsory Irish." Ar ndóigh, níor thug an tAire— caithfidh mé sin d'admháil ar a shon —aon mhisneach do na daoine sin agus, dá mbeadh sé de dhánaíocht agam mo thuairim fhéin a thabhairt dó i dtaobh na ceiste sin Comhairle an Oideachais, sé mo thuairim go mba cheart gan bacadh leis beag ná mór. Ní fheicimse go mbeidh toradh ar bith as comhairle mar sin ach dreamanna a bhfuil `fads' aca a theacht le chéile agus pé'r bith easaontas atá sa tír i dtaobh ceisteanna oideachais is amhlaidh a dhéanfadh dream mar sin i bhfad níos measa é. Isí an chéad ceist a bheadh mar chnámh spáirne eatarthu ceist seo na Gaeilge, go mór mór an rud ar a dtugtar "compulsory Irish." Níl aon "compulsory Irish" ann ach chomh beag is tá "compulsory Arithmetic" nó "compulsory" rud ar bith eile.
Ag labhairt anseo dom ar son muintir na Gaeltachta (mar tá Gaeltacht an-mhór im cheantar), táim chun mo thuairim a nochtadh arís i dtaobh an meas atá agam agus ag go leor daoine eile ar sheirbhís an oideachais mar leigheas ar ghalair na Gaeltachta. Má tá muintir na Gaeltachta le fanacht sa tír seo teastaíonn an t-oideachas uathu. Tá aithne agam ar dhaoine a fuair postanna maithe sa tír de bharr an oideachais a fuair siad tré scoláireachtaí. Más féidir é mholfainn go gcuirfí tuille airgid ar fáil le teacht i gcabhair ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta ar an gcaoi sin. Ní dóigh liom go ndeachaidh aon phinginn amú—nó is fíor-bheag de—den airgid sin a caitheadh ar lucht na scoláireachta. Tá an-obair á dhéanamh ag oiliúint daoine mar oidí scoile agus tá siad-san arís ag déanamh an-obair amuigh faoin tír ag múineadh na Gaeilge don aos óg. Ar chuma ar bith, teastaíonn an t-oideachas uathu. Ba mhaith liom, más féidir é, go gcuirfí tuille meán-scoltacha ar bun. Tá a trí nó a ceathair curtha ar bun le blianta beaga anuas ag na Siúracha agus na Bráithre. Tá péire sa Chlochán agus tá siad ag déanamh obair anmhaith iontu. Tá ceann ag na Siúracha sa Spidéal agus in Uachtar Ard freisin. Dá mbeadh tuille de na meán-scoltacha seo ann is mór an chabhair a thabharfaidís do na daoine atá ag fágáil na mbun-scoleanna. Dúradh liom nach raibh an Roinn sásta le tairiscint a cuireadh chucu ag na Siúracha i gCarna.
Meánscoil?
Meánscoil ag na Siúracha, Clochar na Trócaire.
Cathain a tháinig sé?
Chuala mé go ndearnadh tairiscint don Roinn faoi agus níl fhios agam cad tá ag an Roinn in aghaidh an tairiscinte. Ar chuma ar bith níor cuireadh ar bun fós é. Sin ceanntar a bheadh an-oiriúnach.
Ní dóigh liom go dtáinig an scéal chugainn in aon chor. Cuirfidh mé tuairisc ina thaobh.
Ba mhaith liom go gcuirfeadh an tAire tuairisc i dtaobh an scéil.
I was rather surprised at Deputy Palmer's statement with regard to the teaching of agriculture in the schools. The prosperity of this country is mainly dependent on the land and therefore some agricultural education should be given in our rural schools. When I was at school there were two books on agriculture, one in the third class and one in the fifth class. I think that not alone should there be books on agriculture in the country schools but also in the city schools so as to give our boys and girls some knowledge of the background of agriculture. I think it is rather a strange thing that there is no book on agriculture used in the schools throughout the country.
I am not going to repeat all that has been said about the teaching of Irish, but I often wonder why it is that we do not hear more Irish spoken outside by the school-going children and by those who have left school. I know children who got honours in Irish in school and it is sad to think that there is difficulty in getting them to speak Irish now. I have tried to find out what is the prejudice against the Irish language. I am inclined to think that we have lost all our idealism with regard to the language. It appears to be spoken only by those who feel that they are going to get somewhere owing to their knowledge of Irish. So far as my knowledge goes, some of the teachers are very good at teaching Irish and go to great pains to impart a knowledge of it to the children. I must pay a tribute also to the Christian Brothers because, whenever they meet children, whether inside or outside school, they will not speak to them except in Irish. I think that is very helpful in getting the children to speak Irish. Once the children leave school and go to work in a factory or a shop or anywhere else, you will never hear any of them speak Irish. I think, therefore, that a good deal of propaganda is necessary to encourage the children going to school and those who are leaving school to speak the Irish language. It is rather disappointing when you see children getting honours in Irish in school and not making use of it in conversation afterwards.
As to the question of the cleaning of schools I should like to know on whom to place the blame. Even if they are old-fashioned there is no reason why they should be so filthy and so badly kept. I had some experience in the City of Cork for two years in succession and the contrast between some of the schools is just appalling. I read a medical officer's report of County Cork. He had one report after another about the condition of the schools. It was shocking for anybody in this country, as well as anybody from outside, to read what that medical officer had to say about the cleanliness of the schools and the shocking condition of the sanitation in many of them. I believe it is not the responsibilty of the Department of Local Government or the Minister but of somebody in the area.
Another matter I should like to refer to is the handicap to the boy or girl who is going to the national school. I know there are schools where there are 63, 64 and 65 children in a class. I just cannot help wondering what are the chances of finding out the latent talents of the brilliant boy and girl and giving them a chance of making some advancement. I consider that boys and girls in the country schools are handicapped in getting education for higher posts in the Civil Service as compared with the boys and girls in the city schools. In some of the schools in Cork the children are picked out, put into a class and one teacher concentrates on that class. As time goes on they are sorted out and the less brilliant boy is left out of the class. In other words, they specialise in scholarship. What chance has a national teacher to do that when he has to look after 60 or more children in one class? It is unfair to the children; they are not getting an equal opportunity.
Any boy or girl with talent should be able to get a university education, and the economic position of his parents should not stop him. I hope the time will come when we will reach that stage in this country. I know of boys and girls who reach a certain stage and cannot get any further owing to the financial position of their parents. I think it is up to the Minister to pay attention to this matter. I am not going to repeat what most of the speakers have already said, but I do say that the teaching of civics to the children in the schools and of giving lessons on their conduct and obligations to the community are as important as anything else.
I have heard Deputies speak of the 50 or 60 children in a class with one teacher. This must apply to city schools that I know nothing about. When I heard those Deputies speak of the difficulties of doing their work with very large classes the thought struck me of the difficulties and the handicap of teachers in schools in rural areas. In a small school where there is one teacher he probably has to deal with 30 children of five or six different classes. In a two-teacher school one teacher has to deal with three or four different classes. I know parents in the country who are anxious to get a sound primary education for their children and they have given a good deal of thought as to how best they can get that primary education. They take an interest in their children and find out what they are doing at school. They meet the teachers and ask them what progress their children are making. They make inquiries as to how they could help. I believe the teachers in those schools are greatly handicapped in comparison with their colleagues in large schools in cities and towns who do not have to deal with so many different grades of children. In many parts of the rural areas a teacher in a small school is not in a position to do his work efficiently, no matter how well inclined he may be. I know several teachers who are very conscientious, who have vocations for teaching and who complain of how impossible it is for them to do their work as they should. If they do not have the cooperation of the parents the most that some of them can do is to give their classes and depend on the cooperation of the parents who are willing and able to help out the children at home at night as best they can. Many parents are not able to do that.
In those rural areas there are parents who are anxious to give their children some primary education. They know it is impossible for the teacher in those small rural schools to give them that efficient training, and I see children of tender years injuring their health by pushing bicycles in an endeavour to obtain a good education at the larger schools four or five miles away in towns where they can get more attention. That is a condition of affairs which I think the Minister should attempt to remedy. The children in the rural areas are not getting the same educational facilities as children in large centres of population where there are larger schools. A teacher will try to get out of those remote rural areas and into a better school if he can. He knows that he cannot show the same results, he has not the same encouragement as a teacher may have in a big school. I believe that it is all very unfair to the rural community. We want to keep the people on the land and the Minister should do something to see that the children in the rural areas get the same opportunities as the children in the large centres.
With regard to the teaching of Irish, there are many parents in the rural areas who are anxious that their children should learn and become proficient in the use of the language. I am afraid that some of the older teachers in small schools who have the difficulty of dealing with so many classes are not able to cope with the education of the children, so far as the language is concerned, in the way that they should. I think the Minister should consider the appointment of itinerant teachers who would visit those schools and see that the language is properly taught. There are many well-to-do parents who, I think, know very little about education. Their idea is to let their child attend the national school until it reaches the age of 12 or 14, and then send it to a secondary school. When the child goes there he begins to realise that he has not had a sound primary education, and without that, I believe, he is handicapped afterwards in life. I do not think that we attach sufficient importance to the question of improving our primary education.
Deputy Hickey spoke about teaching agriculture in the national schools. I am a farmer, and I think that his suggestion is just nonsense. I am of opinion that most of the parents in the rural areas would agree with me on that. The farmer's son or daughter attending the national school does not need to be taught agriculture, but is sent there to be taught reading, writing and arithmetic. The parent's idea is that his children should get a sound foundation of knowledge in the national school. If the children get that, they can then proceed to the vocational schools which you have through the country, and there they will be taught rural science and agriculture. I was for some time a member of the vocational education committee in my county. The teachers in these vocational schools complain that they are handicapped by reason of the fact that the children who come to them have not had a sound primary education. That is the weak spot, in my opinion, and I think the Minister should look into it.
We have in the country many old schools which need to be replaced by modern up-to-date ones. I think it is a pity that a number of them are not amalgamated. If that were done it would give the teachers the same opportunity as the teachers in the towns have of carrying out their work efficiently. That might mean the provision of transport for the children. Even so, I think it would be a step in the right direction. For one thing, it would mean that the rural community would, so far as education is concerned, be provided with the same facilities as the people in the towns have. The people in the country are suffering from enough handicaps at present and something on the lines that I suggest should be done for them so far as the education of their children is concerned.
Deputy Hickey mentioned that the children in the rural areas are handicapped at present by reason of the fact that opportunities are not provided to enable them to get into the Civil Service or to enter the professions. Well, I suppose if they feel that way, they are entitled to get the same opportunities as the children in the towns. I do know that, in the country parts, if there is a Civic Guard who has a young family he will be anxious to get transferred to a town where there will be greater facilities for the education of his children. The people in the rural areas are dissatisfied. They feel that there is no hope for them. I think that if the Minister were to look into this question, and were to see that the children in the rural areas had the same opportunity for getting a good primary education as the children in the towns have, it would go a long way to bring more contentment into rural life.
Micheál Ó Ceit
A Chinn Chomhairle, cualathas a lán cainte sa díospóireacht seo ar cheist athbeochaint na teangan agus tá súil agam agus muinín agam go ndéanfaidh an tAire gach a bhfuil ina chumas chun an cheist thábhactach seo, athbheochaint na teangan a chur chun cinn. Cúis bróin is imní do Ghaeilgeoirí na tíre agus thar lear gur lig an tAire Oideachais tua cráite an Aire Airgeadais titim chomh trom sin ar na deontais a bhí ag teastáil go géar chun cabhruithe le hathbheochaint na teangan. Is náireach an mhaise dó é buille a bhualadh in aghaidh Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge agus timirí d'fhágáil ar an seachrán agus gan a bheith i ndán dóibh ach an imirce. Tugadh a lán geallúint do na múinteoirí náisiúnta ag dreamanna atá páirteach sa Rialtas anois maidir le turastal agus pinsin agus tá súil agam go gcomhlíonfar na geallúintí sin do na múinteoirí i gcoitinne agus do na pinsinéirí go speisialta agus go dtabharfar cothrom na Féinne dóibh.
Tá obair thairbheach—agus ní obair gan duadh í—á dhéanamh ag na múinteoirí ar son na Gaeilge. Cloistear clamhsáin faoi mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge, go bhfuiltear ag ísliú caighdeán an oideachais is go bhfuil na páistí aineolach agus mar sin de. Tá formhór na gclamhsán sin mí-mhacánta mar tá caighdeán an oideachais sa tír seo níos aoirde ná caighdeán Shasana, an tír go mba mhaith leis na lochtaitheoirí aithris a dhéanamh uirthi—agus níos aoirde ná caighdeán Ameiricá freisin, is íl aon chlár dhá-theangach sna tíortha an. Má tá na páistí aineolach cionas s éiríonn chomh maith sin leo i scrúduithe na Roinne Oideachais gach bliain —idir bun-scoileanna, meán-scoileanna agus scoileanna Gairm Oideachais? Ag tagairt do mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge sa nGalltacht tá orm a rá nach bhfuil cothrom na Féinne le fáil ag na bun-oidí ná ag na hoidí Gairm-Oideachais sa mhéid seo. Gheibheann na meánmhúinteoirí deontas faoi leith—timpeall £30 sa bhliain creidim— do mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge. Nár cheart go bhfaghfadh na múinteoirí go léir an deontas sin? Dá óige an páiste is ea is deacra an múineadh trí Ghaeilge sa nGalltacht agus is ar na múinteoirí náisiúnta a luíonn an t-ualach is troime.
Molaim don Aire seasamh ar a bhonnaibh agus gan aon fhaillí a dhéanamh ar an obair uasal sin athbheochaint na Gaeilge. Tá ár gCreideamh is ár dteanga fite fuaite trína chéile agus is iad araon an chosaint is fearr againn in aghaidh na mbaol atá go líonmhar nár dtimpeall inniu. Do sheas ár sinsear leis na cianta in aghaidh géirleanúint na bPéindlithe agus in aghaidh gach ionsí eile dár tugadh orainn. Ná bíodh sé le rá go ndéanfaimís faillí anois i dteanga Phádraig, Bhríd is Cholmcille, Bhrian Bóirmhe is Eoghan Ruaidh, Eoghan Ó Gramhnaigh is Pádraig Mac Piarais is na mílte dea-Ghaedhil eile atá imithe ar shlí na fírinne. Dá bhrí sin ba mhian liom a rá leis an Aire—caith uait an spriúnlóireacht i gceist na Gaeilge agus i gcúrsaí oideachais, is b'fhéidir le cúnamh De go mbaistfear an ainm oirdhearc ar Éirinn arís a bhí uirthi in allód—"Oiléan na Naomh is na nOllamh."
I wish to congratulate the Minister for the work he has done, for remedying some of the grievances to which I had referred and which were also referred to by other Deputies on this Estimate last year. During the year I asked questions about various matters. I will mention them again and I trust that, even though the answers I got at the time were not satisfactory, the Minister will again consider these matters and perhaps by this time next year they will be remedied.
During the year I asked a question about the panel system. I pointed out the hardships that were caused by this system and the Minister indicated to me that the system was accepted by the Irish National Teachers' Organisation and the managers and on account of that he did not propose to make any change in it.
Not so much accepted, but devised, jointly; it was not forced on them.
Whether it was devised or not, we will not argue about the word. The Minister says that it was devised and accepted by them. It was a big step forward at the time. Every step we take forward, no matter in what field of activity, is a good thing, but if we can go a bit further, if there are some obnoxious clauses we can remedy, why not move in that direction and take that further step? I can draw an analogy between this and the action taken in the national field. If we had not the Fianna Fáil Government in office and if we had not taken all the steps forward that we did take in relation to the Treaty that was imposed on us, we would not have advanced as far in the national field as we have advanced to-day. When we did take those forward steps we had not all the flag-waving and all the ballyhoo that there was over the small step taken recently.
That has nothing to do with the Vote for Education.
It is a pity there was not as much agreement about it as there was about the panel.
In spite of all the flagwaving that we have had there is another big step forward to be taken in the national field, the step forward to remove Partition.
That is not relevant to this Vote.
I am merely drawing an analogy. If we can go a step further in relation to the panel system it will be all the better. The Minister has informed me that the managers and the Irish National Teachers' Organisation accepted this, but I suggest that if we can go a step further it will make things easier for the teachers who are affected by this panel. Why should we not be prepared to take that step? I admit that the panel has given security of tenure to the teachers for the first time. I know the heart-break it was to women teachers when they saw the average going down. Some of them were married and had reared families and if they had not the average they had to go on the road the next day. Some of them were the bread-winners of the family. That was a big heart-break to them, but under this panel they get security of tenure and now they know that if the average goes down they will not have to go on the road; they will be offered a position in the diocese in which they reside.
But there are still grave hardships under the panel system. In the diocese that I come from, Elphin, a woman teacher, if the average goes down, has her name placed on the panel and she can be changed from near Donegal down to South Galway or South Roscommon. The Scripture tells us that what God has joined together let no man put asunder, but I am afraid there are some officials in the Department of Education and they have no ——
I resent that and I think if the Deputy has difficulties to put up for consideration and discussion he might put these difficulties in a clear, simple way. I resent very much that anybody with an intimate knowledge of the working of the schools would attack anybody in the Department of Education.
Whoever drew up the regulations——
The Minister is responsible to the House, not the officials.
And I am going to accept my responsibility. It is more than an acceptance of my responsibilities when I interfere now. I am simply standing up for ordinary common decency.
I apologise to the Chair and to the Minister for saying what I said about the officials.
I thank the Deputy for the withdrawal.
I certainly do that, but whoever is responsible for these panel regulations, if he knew the hardships, as I know them, that they are causing, he might have a different outlook. They are breaking up homes, I know from the teachers, and I have heard of different cases from managers. I got several letters on the subject and I can show them to the Minister. Some teachers have to go long distances to take up positions and they lose a terrible lot of money changing their furniture and so forth. Homes have been broken up in this way and it is my belief that that is against the Constitution of the country.
What is the Deputy's suggestion?
My suggestion is that these panel regulations should be modified so that these teachers would not have to travel so far.
And what does that mean?
If the Minister will allow me to make my point. One suggestion is that the diocese should not be taken. There are deaneries within the diocese and I suggest that these should be taken. If they were taken the teacher would not have to break up her home. I have already explained that the diocese of Elphin extends from near Donegal down to South Galway. If the deaneries were substituted instead of the diocese a teacher who was transferred to a new school within the deanery could travel to that school either by means of her own car or by public transport. That would be a definite improvement if it were adopted and it would relieve many of the women teachers of a good deal of worry at the moment. Many teachers have lost money by opting to reduce their status down to junior assistant mistresses rather than break up their homes. The managers are worried about this problem too.
I put a question down during the year in connection with residences for teachers. Apart from the official residences we have residences built for teachers out of local funds or local contributions. The teachers in the latter pay high rents and rates for these. They do not qualify for the £10 grant that they get if they build their own houses or rent them from private landlords. There are some of those in my constituency. They are paying high rents and rates. I understand that the official residences built by the Department and the Board of Works are held at a nominal rental. In that case nobody grumbles because no rent allowance is made. I would ask the Minister to look into the cases I have mentioned.
I do not intend to deal at any great length with the question of compulsory Irish. I heard Deputy Mrs. Redmond say that non-nationals should be exempt from Irish in our schools. I hope she was not referring to the children of the hunting, fishing and shooting gang. These are people who come back here to eat our food and enjoy our scenery and then skip so that they will not be contaminated by learning the language of the mere Irish.
I want to deal now with the school buildings and their surroundings. If we are to have contented teachers and happy, healthy children we must provide them with proper school buildings especially in the rural areas. At the moment a big portion of the cost of erection is borne by the managers and by the people in the particular locality. Irrespective of who provides the money we should have clean, neat and tidy schools. I do not want palatial mansions. I do not think it would cost much to put some of the existing schools into a proper state of repair. Some provision should be made to have them painted periodically. Proper cement paths should be laid down going in to the schools and also to the out-offices. Proper sanitary accommodation should be provided. Where water is not laid on tanks for collecting rain water could be erected. Some effort should be made to improve the surroundings of the schools. Trees and shrubs could be planted. Instead of actually teaching civics, as was suggested by one Deputy, the actual school and its surroundings could be used as an object lesson for the pupils.
The Minister spoke about the health of the children. He said that he had a special commission examining the question of articulation. He said that would have a beneficial effect on the health of the children because it would improve them by making them speak up and speak properly. He said he would like to have physical training. Let us picture a primary school in rural Ireland for a moment. In the summer time the boys could be provided with a football or hurley ball and the girls could play camogie during the daily recess. That would help to develop their health. Mens sana in corpore sano. Recreation such as I have suggested would do much to improve the health of the children. In the winter time when it is not possible to play in the open air provision should be made for them by means of the erection of an ambulatory where they could walk or march round during the recess.
In the ordinary two-teacher school at the moment there are no facilities for the children. The usual school consists of two rooms with a hallway in the middle. The children walk to school, one, two or three miles. The country roads are bad. The children may get wet coming in. They hang their wet clothes in the hallway. They are in class for three hours and during the recess they all huddle together in this hallway with all their wet clothes hanging around them. The teachers cannot leave them in the class-rooms because these must be ventilated. As well as that the class-room is the only place in which the teachers can have their lunch. I think it would cost very little to build a shelter of some kind where the children could play in winter-time.
I do not want palatial schools but I do ask that they be kept properly heated and properly cleaned. I am disappointed because of the reduction made in the Estimate for heating and cleaning this year. I have had experience of the administration of these grants because I happen to come from a parish where the manager—and I am sure the Minister knows this— has built a number of new schools. Nearly every school in the parish is a newly-built school or a newly-repaired school and, since the increased grants were given by the Fianna Fáil Government, there is a caretaker in charge of each school. In a two-teacher school there is a £12 grant given by the Department for heating and cleaning. That is expended under different headings—so much for heating, so much for cleaning, etc. It is very hard to get a caretaker for the amount of money that is left after these expenses have been met, even with the grants we had up to the present to do the work. The school has to be cleaned out every evening and in winter-time fires have to be put down in the morning. Everybody will agree that it is most unhealthy for the children to keep them after ordinary school hours to do this work. Now we have the position where these grants have been cut down and it will be very hard to get the work done in future, even in cases where managers were co-operating and getting people at cheap rates to do the job. It will be nearly impossible to do it under the present grants and we shall have to revert to the position where the children had to do the work.
They are not getting less this year than they got last year or the year before.
If they are not getting less, I am satisfied, but I understood that they were getting less.
The last Government intended to give increased grants last year and they were put in the Estimates but they were not paid out. The same sums are being paid this year as were paid last year and the year before that.
If that is the case I am satisfied and probably we shall be able to carry on even though the cost of labour and the cost of material is going up. Even as things were, it was very difficult to get people to carry out this work and it was only possible to do so by the employment of cheap labour. I would suggest to the Minister that these grants should be increased.
Perhaps I might be permitted to intervene to make this matter clear. Is it not the position that an increase of £25,000 was intended to be provided for this purpose in last year's Estimate and that the reduction this year is £30,000? Does that not mean that not merely has the increase proposed in last year's Estimate not been given but that there is a reduction on the preceding figure of £5,000?
The grant will not be less than it was last year or the year before or the year before that.
Mr. de Valera
Is that due to overestimation?
I could not say what the details may be.
I shall conclude with a few words regarding the importance of school building and the necessity of keeping schools as up-to-date as possible. The Taoiseach when he was paying tribute to the late Mr. Murphy —Go ndeanai Dia trocaire ar a anam— said he believed that the last words of the late Minister were as follows: "I believe the first step is to remove a considerable section of the public from hovels and slums and to give them an opportunity of bringing up their children." The Taoiseach then went on and said: "He repeated the words, `their children', and died.""Their children" were the last words that the late Minister, God rest his soul, had on his lips and I would ask the Minister for Education to look after the second home of the majority of these children —that is, their schools—and to see that they are situated in proper surroundings and made as bright as possible, so that they will be an example to these children of what a home should be and an inspiration to them for the rest of their lives.
Tá rudaí a dhein an tAire a mholaim agus tá rudaí eile a dhí-mholaim. Molaim an tAire ar an rud a dhein sé le bliain anuas, an gearán i measc na múinteoir a chur ar ceal—an tárd éifeachtach agus an neamh-éifeachtach. Tá san curtha ar ceal agus molaim an tAire mar gheall air sin. Dí-mholaim é go mór toisc gur aontuigh sé le laghdhú an deontais do na páipéirí Gaeilge, nuair ba cheart an deontas a mhéadú. Níl aon mhaitheas don Aire a rá nach bhfuil sé ciontach sa mhéid sin mar tá sé chomh ciontach leis an Aire Airgeadais. Tá páipéirí Gaeilge againn, agus cuid acu b'fhéidir nach bhfuil ró-mhaith, ach mar sin féin is náireach é nach bhfuil ach aon pháipéar seachtainiúil amháin againn sé sin Indiu Tá gearrtha síos ar an bpáipéar sin. Is páipéar Gaelach, aibidh é agus is docar mór é go bhfuil gearrtha air.
Mar gheall ar an nGaeilge i scoil na naíonán, bhí baint agamsa leis an gCoiste a cheap an chéad chlár. Rugadh sa Ghaeltacht mé agus fuair mé oiliúint ar scoil i mBéarla. Nuair a thángas ar scoil ní bhfuair me aon oiliúint ach amháin tré Bhéarla. Annsan, léas leabhar ar conus mar a déantar lucht imirce do mhúineadh i scoileanna Nua Eabhrach tré Bhéarla. Bhí daoine ón Rúis, ón Bheilg, ón Fhrainc agus ón Iodáil ann, ó gach tír san Eorap. Tugtar na leanaí óga isteach agus ní múintear dóibh ach Béarla, ar coinníoll amháin, nach mbeadh teanga ar bith ag na múinteoirí i mbun na ranganna seo ach amháin an Béarla. Bhí an smaoineamh san os comhair an Choiste a cheap an chéad chlár. Táimse le blianta ag moladh, i gcoinne mo Theachta féin a bhí ina Aire anseo, agus tá mé ag moladh, gur ceart comhairle oideachais a chur ar bun. Ghéill an tAire seo atá againn anois go mba chóir í do chur ar bun ach tá sé mall, agus anmhall, á dhéanamh. Do cuireadh ceist air inné i dtaobh fáth na moille agus dúirt sé "ceal eolais." Ní thuigimse ró-mhaith an leithscéil sin. Tá eolas maith ag an Aire.
Tá a lán saghas eolais ann leis.
Tá. Má tá an freagra sin cruinn, tá súil agam go mbeidh an t-eolas aige go luath. Nuair a chuirfidh sé an chomhairle ar bun, tá súil agam go gcuirfidh sé tromlach Gael ar an gcomhairle. Muna ndéanfaidh sé sin, déanfaidh sé dochar. Cuirim go láidir i bhfábhar na comhairle ach dá gcuirtí daoine uirthi nach mbeadh Gaelach agus i bhfábhar na Gaeilge, dhéanfadh sé dochar. Nuair a bhí an tAire in a gharsún ar an dtaobh seo den tSeomra, bhí sé ag gearán— agus cúis gearáin aige leis—i dtaobh líon na rang sna scoileanna i mBaile Átha Cliath. Anois, tá an Teachta Ua Maolchatha ina Aire agus ina chomhbhainisteoir ar scoileanna Bhaile Átha Cliath. Cad tá déanta aige nó á dhéanamh aige chun an scéal do leigheas? Im thuairimse, faic na fríde. Tá fhios agam gur deacair é má tá ceal múinteoirí ann, agus thosnaigh an ceal múinteoirí sin i gcás aisteach. Cumann na nGaedheal ba bhun leis an rud san i dtosac. hOileadh breis múinteoirí ar feadh 12 bliain fé choimirce Chumann na nGaedheal. Do chaith siad sé bliana—ceithre bliana i scoil oilúna agus dhá bhliain i scoil mhúinteoireachta—agus ansin sé bliana ag obair. Nuair a tháinig Fianna Fáil isteach, chuir siad feabhas ar an scéal. I gCiarraidhe, i nDún na nGall agus i nGaillimh chomh maith, na contaethe as a dtagann muinteóirí, bhíodar lán de mhúinteoirí oilte gan post. Bhí Fianna Fáil ró-aibidh. Cuireadh cuid de na múinteoirí le De La Salle agus cuireadh cuid acu in áiteanna eile. Faoi Rialtas Fhianna Fáil, cuireadh deireadh leis an ngnáth-dhul ar aghaidh sin.
Deineadh tagairt do ghlanadh na scoileanna is ábhar tine. Bhí litreacha go leor sa Sunday Independent le leath bhliain anuas ar an gceist sin. Tá lúb ar lár in áit éigin sa scéal sin. Nuair a bhíos-sa im gharsún scoile, bhí fód móna fém ascall gach lá ó Lá Samhna go dtí timpeall Lá Bealtaine. Ní raibh leigheas air sin. Ansan, tháinig an deontas isteach ó Rialtas Gallda chun soláthar a dhéanamh mar gheall air. Cad tá á dhéanamh anois? An fíor an rud adúradh sa Sunday Independent go bhfuil leanaí fós ag tabhairt fód móna féna n-ascall? Más fíor é sin, tá daoine éigin ag déanamh éagóra. Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire fé sin. An gcaithfidh an bainisteoir éileamh a chur isteach ar an deontas?
Caithfidh. Ba cheart go mbeadh fhios sin ag an Teachta.
Sin í an cheist—an bhfuil bainisteoirí ná deineann san.
Ní fheadar.
Chuireas an cheist sin cheana. Má tá bainisteoirí ná cuireann an t-éileamh isteach agus nach bhfuigheann an deontas san, ba cheart iad a briseadh as bainisteoireacht. Níl aon amhras fé sin.
Níl an chumhacht agamsa, pé ar domhan de.
Tá an chumhacht san ag an Aire agus do deineadh cheana é go minic. Nuair nár dhein bainisteoir a chion mar bhainisteoir, cuireadh duine eile in a áit. Sagart paróiste an gnáth-bhainisteoir agus ar uaire, tá fhios agam seo go maith, cuireadh as é agus cuireadh sagart óg ina áit.
Agus cé chuir an sagart óg in a áit?
An tEaspag.
Agus ní easpag mise fós.
Agus an Oifig. I dtaobh na Gaeilge, tá ceist amháin ar mhaith liom í a chur fé bhráid an lucht léinn agus an lucht eolais agus an lucht teangan: An féidir dhá theanga a bheith comhbhríomhar in aon tír sa domhan? Níl a leithéid ann fé láthair.
Ná bris ár ndóchas orainn.
An Aifric Theas agus an Eilbhéis.
Tá daoine in aice na teorann ansin agus dhá theanga acu ach ní gnáth-dhaoine iad. An féidir le Teachta a insint dúinn go bhfuil aon tír nó Stát sa domhan a bhfuil dhá theanga ann comh-bríomhar beo. Ba mhaith liom eolas d'fháil fé sin.
Tá a lán daoine sa Bhreatain Bhig agus tá an scéal go han-mhaith acu.
Tá Ciarraidhe agus Contae an Chláir agus Dún na nGall agus Gaillimh agus dhá theanga acu ansin, ach ní hionann san agus a rá gurb iad muintir na tíre ar fad iad.
Más féidir é a dhéanamh i gCiarraidhe, is féidir é a dhéanamh i dTiobrad Árann.
Bíonn ceann acu in uachtar.
Bíonn. Má gheibhim deimhniú air sin, beidh mé sásta glacadh leis, ach ní doigh liom go bhfuil tír iomlán dá-theangach.
Nach bhfuil daoine thíos i gCiarraidhe agus dá theanga ar fheabhas acu?
Más féidir le 10 é a dhéanamh, is féidir le 40 é a dhéanamh, ach cur chuige.
I gcás na hEilbhéise, tá trí teangacha ann ach tá siad ar an teorainn.
Cad é an chomhairle atá ag an Teachta le tabhairt dúinn?
Caithfimid ligint don Bhéarla dul i ndísc agus an Ghaeilge a chur ar aghaidh. Do mhol an Teachta Ó Loingsigh inné go mba cheart deighilt a dhéanamh ar chúrsaí oideachais nuair shroichfeadh an leanbh 12 bhliain d'aois. Aontaím leis sin. Tá sé déanta in Alban leis na blianta agus cuirfear i bhfeidhm é i Sasana an bhliain seo chugainn agus ba cheart dúinne tabhairt fé chomh maith. Bhí an Teachta O Loingsigh ag dímholadh na mic léinn dul isteach go dtí na meánscoileanna agus do mhol sé go ndéanfaí iad do chur isteach i gceard-scoileanna. Is dóigh liom gur mhaith an rud é sin.
Molaim an méid cainte a rinne an Teachta Ó Loingsigh agus an Teachta Ó Mongáin go mba cheart do dhaoine a bhfuil an teanga acu labhairt i nGaeilge anseo chomh minic agus is féidir. Mhol an bheirt é sin go láidir agus aontaím leo.
I am not satisfied that enough attention was paid to vocational education in this debate. I contend that the vocational school is the poor man's college. Until we get vocational education on some sort of a sound footing we will get nowhere with our young people in this country. I have heard a good deal about primary education, higher education and graduation from the various schools. The ordinary man in the street will not, unfortunately, take advantage of the benefits of vocational education in regard to trade and so forth. If we do not pay attention to that aspect of the matter I think our educational system will go to a higher plane and we will not have enough space for the higher educated people in this country. We want to get the poor man's child trained. If he gets, say, two years' training in a vocational school this young lad could be apprenticed to some contractor. It is being done in the motor trade, but it has not been done in the building trade nor in the carpentry trade either. I heard some Deputies in this House saying some time ago that they could not get tradesmen in Dublin. They could—plenty of them—but the union people will not admit young men who come up from the country. They will not let them into their labour union and therefore no person will work with them. That is what is holding back your building and your various works in the City of Dublin. I do not want everybody to come to the city. I want people trained in the country because we in the country want things too.
I come from the borders of West-meath and in that district the population is, unfortunately, going down. We have nothing there but big white bullocks. We have to reduce the standard in our schools there, say, 35 to 25. Some person will ask the Minister for Education to reduce it still further. We require a motor car in various places. That facility has been provided in other districts. We need to have those children who have to travel four or five miles to school carried to some central school that will be kept going.
I was sorry last night to hear the language decried. I consider that that is a very great mistake. I happen to have school-going children and I want to hear them speaking the national language. The only way they can be recognised abroad as Irishmen is by their language. What is the use of talking nonsense? In any other Parliament in the world no language other than the native language would be listened to.
We were to build three schools in County Longford, but the Minister has sanctioned only one and that is a vocational school in the Granard area. A school is needed in Ballymahon and another in Ballinamuck where we have a big population, thanks be to God, and where we fought the best battle of all. We want to get that school in the Ballinamuck area. That area will supply good scholars and fine fellows—do not be a bit uneasy on that score. I should like the Minister to sanction those two schools. I am not on that committee now. I could not attend to all the committees I was on. I have to attend to my Parliamentary duties. I want to make an appeal on behalf of the old teacher pensioners some of whom are in a very bad way.
That is settled.
I am glad to hear that I hope the Minister will sanction these two new schools to which I have referred. He has already given sanction to one in Granard.
Fuair an Teachta Conchubhar Ó Liatháin locht orm os rud é nár labhair mé i nGaeilg agus mé ag tabhairt isteach an Meastachán seo. Tá súil agam nár thug mé drochshompla uaireanta— agus an deaghshompla a thug seisean agus mórán eile, dhom san díospóireacht a bhí ar siúl. Raghaidh an deaghshompla sin i bhfeidhm orm. Tá gnó agam le déanamh agus caithfidh mé mo ghnó a dhéanamh in mo shlí féin agus geallaimse don Teachta ná déanfaidh an obair atá ar siúl agam díobháil don Ghaeilge.
Nuair a bhí an Teachta MacPhárthaláin ag caint dhein sé tagairt do mhórán rudaí. B'fhéidir go mba chóir dom tagairt a dhéanamh dó anois. Bhí sé ag chur síos ar an nGaeltacht agus dúirt sé gur cuireadh rial amach le déanaí i dtreo is go múinfear an Béarla níos fearr san nGaeltacht anois. Ní fheadar ar aon chor cad atá ina cheann mar gheall air sin. B'fhéidir gurb é an rud atá ina aigne ná, mar adúrt nuair a bhíos ag tabhairt an Mheastacháin os comhair na Dála, gur cuireadh Ordú amach chun fiosrúcháin a dhéanamh ar an uchtach cainte atá ag na páistí agus feabhas a chur orthu i dtaobh labhairt an Bhéarla san nGaeltacht:
"Os annamh a bhíos caint na ndaltaí go sásúil de leith cruinneas foghar agus soiléiréacht urlabhra, fiú amháin sna dréachta a bhíos curtha de ghlain-mheabhair acu, iarrtar ar gach cigire tuairisc ghearr le haghaidh an Aire a sholáthar faoin gceist roimh Nollaig, agus tagairt a dhéanamh do na pointí seo:—
(a) Na lochta is coitianta ar urlabhra na ndaltaí (i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla);
(b) Fáth na locht sin; (bhfuil aon bhaint ag faitíos roimh pionós leis an locht sin);
(c) An méid is féidir a dhéanamh chun na lochta sin a leigheas;
(d) An áit a bhfuil urlabhra na ndaltaí go sásúil, conas a thárla go bhfuil?”
Is féidir a rá, b'fhéidir, gur Ordú é sin atá ag iarraidh feabhas a chur ar labhairt an Bhéarla san nGaeltacht, ach ní dóigh liom gur cheart aon eagla a bheith ar éinne san nGaeltacht nó in aon áit eile sa tír go ndéanfadh Ordú mar sin, feabhas mar sin, díobháil don Ghaeilge, mar má labhrann siad an Béarla níos soiléire labharfaidh siad an Ghaeilge níos soiléire más í an Ghaeilge a dteanga féin.
Tá fógra eile ann a cuireadh amach agus b'fhéidir gur cheart an tOrdú sin a chur os comhair na Dála toisc an chaint i dtaobh na Gaeilge a bhí ag an Teachta agus ag Teachtaí eile. Cuireadh alán ceisteanna orm faoi cad é cuspóir an Rialtais i dtaobh na Gaeilge agus dheineas iarracht a dhéanamh amach ón Teachta O Briain agus an Teachta Bartley cad a bhí ina naigne mar gheall air sin. Mhínigh an Teachta Bartley.
An Teachta Mac Phárthaláin.
Tá go maith. Mhínigh seisean an cheist beagáinín domsa, ach déanfaidh sé díobháil do chúrsaí oideachais na Gaeilge mura dtuigfimíd sinn féin sa cheart in gach áit sa Seomra seo. Tuigim gur cheart a rá leis an Dáil cad iad na hOrduithe a cuireadh amach go dtí na cigirí atá i mbun na Gaeltachta i nDún na nGall, i gCondae Mhuigheo, i nGaillimh agus i gCuige Mumhan:
Dualgaisí na gCigirí atá toghta go speisialta le haghaidh na gCeantar Gaeltachta.
I. Tuairiscí a chur isteach, mar is gnáthach, i dtaobh na scol atá curtha go sonradhach ina gcúram, agus tuairiscí a chur ar fáil, chomh minic agus is gá, faoi stáid na teangan sna ceantair Ghaeltachta a cuirfear ina gcúram agus faoin mbail atá ar na ceantair sin i gcoitinne.
II. Muintearas agus comhoibriú dícheallach a mhealladh chucu ó na Bainisteoirí agus ó na múinteoirí san obair seo leanas:—
(i) na daltaí scoile a ghríosadh chun feidhm a bhaint as a nGaeilge dhúchais gach am 's gach tráth, sa scoil agus sa mbaile.
(ii) Deiseanna agus ócáideacha a lorg agus d'eagrú chun na tuismitheoirí a thabhairt i gcóimhcheangal le hobair na scoile agus chun na haidhmeanna atá mar bhun leis an obair sin agus an dul chun cinn atá déanta agus dá dhéanamh a léiriú dhóibh.
(iii) An Ghaeilge a chur dá húsáid i leith ábhar agus aireag agus forás atá nua-aimseardha, agus focla agus leaganacha chuige sin a chur ar fáil do na daltaí agus iad a ghríosadh chun na focla agus na leaganacha sin d'úsáid sa mbaile do réir mar bheadh gá chuige, san tslí go mbeadh na tuismitheoirí ag foghlaim ó na daltaí chomh maith leis na daltaí a bheith ag foghlaim ó na tuismitheoirí.
III. Comhthadhall pearsanta a dhéanamh, chomh maith agus do b'fhéidir, leis na tuismitheoirí; eolas a chur ar an dearcadh atá acu i leith na teangan agus iarracht a dhéanamh, nuair is ghá é, ar iad a thabhairt chun dearcaidh níos eolgasaí agus níos náisiúnta; éisteacht go foighdeach le clamhsán ar bith a bheadh le déanamh acu i dtaobh gnóthaí scoile—deontas na gcúig bpúnt agus a leithéid—san tslí nach mbeadh éad ná díombáidh ná míshástacht ann a chuirfeadh drochchasadh san mana a bheadh acu i leith na teangan.
IV. Taighdeadh ginearálta a dhéanamh ar na hilneithe a théann i gcionn agus a bhíonn ag oibriú ar shaol na ndaoine sna ceantair Ghaeltachta. Ar na neithe sin bheadh
(a) Tosca geilleagair—an scéal mar atá agus molta chun feabhais,
(b) imirce lucht oibre agus an chaoi a dtéann sin i geionn ar staid na teangan,
(c) an Eaglais agus na hOifigigh Stáit sa mhéid go mbíonn baint acu le staid na teangan,
(d) na leabhra, agus na nuachtáin, etc., a bhfuil glaoch orthu sna ceantair sin; an deis a bheadh ann chun ionaid a chur ar fáil chun leabhra Gaeilge a ligint amach ar iasacht do dhaltaí scoile agus do dhaoine fásta a mbeadh Gaeilge acu,
(e) na peictiúirí Reatha agus an Radio, agus pé tionchar a bheadh acu san,
(f) na sráidbhailte agus a dtioncharsan i leith na teangan.
I ndiaidh tréimhse sé mhí, abair, a dhul i gcomhairle leis na cigirí a bheadh i gcúram na gceantar Breac-Ghaeltachta sa chomharsanacht d'fhonn a shocrú go dtabharfaidís cuairt i dteanta a chéile ar scoltacha sna ceantair sin agus d'fhonn slite a cheapadh chun an Ghaeilge a neartú i scoltacha na Breac-Ghaeltachta agus sna ceantair thart timpeall orthu san tslí go ndéanfaí Gaeltachta de na ceantair sin arís le himtheacht na haimsire.
Crothnú a chur i ngnóthaí na gcumann aithbheochainte a bheadh ar obair sna ceantair Ghaeltachta nó Bhreac-Ghaeltachta agus comhoibriú a dhéanamh leo ó thaobh an oideachais de agus ó thaobh aon ghnóthaí fíorchultúrdha a gcuirfidís tús leo nó a bheadh idir lámhaibh acu.
Taighdeadh a dhéanamh ar an mbail atá ar an nGaeilge féin mar theangain—an bhfuil sí ag meath ó thaobh foclóra, nó ó thaobh saidhbhreas leagan agus cor cainte. Má tá an meath ann, taighdeadh a dhéanamh ar na fáthanna is cúis leis, agus molta a dhéanamh faoin gcaoi a bhféadfaí stop a chur leis an gclaonadh sin chun meatta.
Sin iad na horduithe a tugadh do sna Cigirí a cuireadh go dtí an FhíorGhaeltacht i nDún na nGall agus Co. na Gaillimhe agus Co. Mhuigheo agus sa Mhumhain tá scoileanna sa Ghaeltacht agus san mBreach-Ghaeltacht curtha i dteanta a chéile fá aon Chigire amháin. Ba chóir go dtuigfí, go mór mór ag daoine a chuireas suim sa cheist, ó na h-orduithe a cuireadh amach ansin, go bhfuilimid i ndáiríribh i dtaobh an Ghaeilge a choimeád beo agus a neartú agus a leathnú amach ón Ghaeltacht go dtí an Bhreac-Ghaeltacht ar dtúis i dtreo is go mbeidh an Ghaeilge ag dul i dtreise sa Bhreac-Ghaeltacht. Ní doigh liom gur gá in aon chor aon eagla a bheith ar aon duine i dtaobh cad tá againn á dhéanamh agus cad tá inár n-aigne i dtaobh an Ghaeilge a choimeád beo agus d'aithbheochaint.
Chuir an Teachta Mac Phárthaláin roinnt ceisteanna orm i dtaobh scoileanna sa cheantar agus b'fhéidir gur comhartha é sin ar na rudaí atá ar siúl againn nó atáimid ag iarraidh a dhéanamh chun tuille caoi oideachais a thabhairt don Ghaeltacht. Dúirt sé gur chuala sé gur dhiúltaigh an Roinn Oideachais meánscol d'aithint i gCarna. Ní fíor in aon chor é sin agus, i dtaobh na meánscol, tá meánscoil fá stiúradh Siúracha d'Ord Naomh Benedict sa Choill Mhóir, tá meánscoil fá stiúradh Siúracha d'Ord na Trócaire sa Spidéal, agus tá meánscoil i gcóir buachaillí sa Chlochán agus do bheadh an Roinn lántsásta meánscoil d'aithint i gCarna.
An bhfuarthas tairiscint le haghaidh Charna?
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuarthas. Ní bhfuarthas. Níor diúltaíodh é pé ar domhan é. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuarthas aon tairiscint agus bheimís lántsásta meánscoil a bheith ann agus tinnreamh maith daltaí a bheith ag dul go dtí an scoil sin. I dtaobh Chloch Bhreac, tá cead tabhartha scoil a chur suas ansin agus do tugadh an cead don Choiste an chéad lá d'Abrán agus tuigimid go bhfuil ailtirí á ceapadh anois agus tá siad réidh chun dul chun cinn leis an obair.
I dtaobh an scoil a bhí uatha sa Chnoc, ní raibh muintir chúpla paróiste thíos ansin sásta leis an suíomh a bhí ceapaithe chun na scoile sin agus má réitítear an cheist sin ní bheidh aon mhoill orainne cead a thabhairt. I dtaobh an Cheard-Scoil in Árainn, táimid lantoilteanach cabhair a thabhairt dóibh an scoil a chur suas in Árainn leis.
Tá aon ní amháin i dtaobh an chórais atá ina n-aigne ag an Rialtas i dtaobh na Gaeilge agus faoin cheist a cuireadh orainn i dtaobh cad é an cuspóir atá ag an Rialtas i dtaobh na Gaeilge. Do chuir an Teachta Ó Briain an cheist orainn an rabhamar ar lorg tír dhá-theangach agus is dóigh liom go ndúirt an Teachta Cormac Breathnach nach féidir é sin a bheith againn. Tá tír dhá-theangach i nDún na nGall, i nGaillimh, Muigheo agus Ciarraí agus sé rud atá romhamsa, pé scéal é, an tír dhá-theangach sin a leathnú.
Táim sásta leis sin más féidir é a dhéanamh.
Más féidir é a dhéanamh agus tógfaidh sé alán oibre é a dhéanamh. Cad é an mhaitheas dúinn bheith ag ceapadh oibre níos mó nó níos deacra dúinn fhéin ná mar is féidir linn a dhéanamh agus an t-am atá againn lena dhéanamh?
Sé an freagra ar sin ná gur féidir an Béarla agus an Ghaeilge a bheith ag dul i dtreise do réir a chéile.
Fód ar fhód agus dhá fhód ar dhá fhód. Táimid ag iarraidh fód a chur ar dhá fhód. N'fheadar cé hé a thiocfas nár ndiaidh a chuirfidh an dá fhód ar dhá fhód. Is amaideach an rud dúinn bheith ag ceapadh gur féidir linn rudaí a dhéanamh nach féidir a dhéanamh i gceann 50 blian, dá mbfhéidir iad a dhéanamh in aon chor. Sé an rud atá uainn ná an Ghaeilge a choimeád slán san nGaeltacht, a neartú sna scoileanna, suim a spreagadh sna scoláirí agus sna daoine fásta agus a theas-páint dóibh cé an fá gur cheart dúinn greim a choimeád uirthi agus grádh a bheith againn dí. Is leor san mar chuspóir. Is amaideach an rud dúinn bheith ag gearán lena chéile agus ag cur ceisteanna ar a chéile gan éifeacht ontu.
A number of questions of a general kind were dealt with. A number of Deputies were anxious to know what is being done by the Minister for Finance with regard to the teachers who were pensioned before the scales of November, 1946, came into operation. The Minister will give the fullest details of the general plan with regard to that when replying to the debate on the General Financial Resolution. Generally it is that, with a certain condition with regard to service of a particular kind, these teachers with less than £2 per week will have their pensions increased from 1st April by 50 per cent. Those with pensions between £2 and £3 will have their pensions increased by 40 per cent.— they will not lose at the lower end of the scale, they will get as much at the lower end of their scale as they would get at the higher end of the £2 scale— and those with £3 a week and upwards will get an increase of 30 per cent., with a limiting provision that no increase of pension under the scheme shall operate to raise the income to more than £450.
Mr. de Valera
Is there any minimum under the £2?
In respect of people with a particular type of service there will be a certain minimum. That is generally the scheme. There are certain details which have to be settled, refinements of it, and the Minister will give information in more general detail on replying, to the debate on the Budget.
From what date will the increases operate?
From 1st April, the beginning of the financial year. Reference has been made to certain matters, such as the Council of Education and the school-leaving age. I have indicated quite clearly that it is my intention to set up a council of education. Different opinions have been expressed about that. Some Deputies do not want it, some want it in a particular way and some want it in other ways. Deputy Cowan indicated that he did not want a council of education which would do away with Ministerial responsibility to this House. On the other hand, he wanted a Bill which would define both the structure and the powers of the council.
The Minister is not interpreting me correctly. What I said was that I do not want a council of education appointed which would enable the Minister to say: "This council has decided on such and such a thing," a council which would not be a statutory body. I want to see the council appointed by statutory authority.
I hope the Deputy does not want a council appointed as a statutory body with the Minister in the position of coming into the House and saying: "The council decided that and therefore we must put it into operation."
I want their duties and responsibilities defined by statute and the method of election prescribed.
I indicated clearly that I am proposing an advisory council to be selected by the Minister to advise him with regard to certain matters.
Mr. de Valera
If you are having one at all, that is the best kind to have.
I asked Deputies before to give me my head in regard to this. I would strongly recommend to the House to keep a grip on their Minister for Education; to have a person who would be responsible to the House. Let him get the best advice he can and see that he does get the best advice he can so that he will be closely in touch with every aspect of the practical work of education, on the one side, and closely in touch with the religious authorities who are the managers and the controllers of education in the country and whom we want to keep in that position. We have a very satisfactory position between the Church and the State. Magnificent work is being done by teachers in various parts of the country in technical, primary and secondary education. A lot of that work is unknown and, in the public agitation which goes on about certain aspects of education, a lot of it is completely ignored and forgotten.
I want a council of education which will raise the educational ideal, create an educational climate, give Irish talent and Irish capacity in the schools a chance of coming out and co-ordinate that effort so that the administrative machinery maintained and controlled by Parliament will be fully informed and will faithfully serve the ideals of our people in regard to education. That council will have very many problems to deal with because we are at a very difficult and very important point in educational development.
References that have been made to the school-leaving age are evidence of the anxiety of our people. They feel that our children are not long enough in school; that they do not get a finishing touch of a practical kind to fit them for the life in front of them. The raising of the school-leaving age raises very many serious problems which require the most careful and experienced educational thought to be brought to bear upon them. The first thing that it brings you up against is the curriculum. If you are going to raise the school-leaving age compulsorily to 15 or 16 years of age, then you are immediately up against the question of the curriculum of the schools from 12 years of age and upwards. At any rate, the curriculum of the primary school and the post-primary school will have to be very fully reviewed.
Then there is the question of the provision of teachers and the provision of school buildings; where you are going to have the additional schooling carried on; whether you are going to have it carried on in the primary schools or as a development of the primary schools or as a development of the technical schools. All these things have to be very fully considered in a country in which religion is the foundation of our whole educational system. Religious ideals and the religious point of view must be maintained fully and completely through the whole course of education which will be given up to 16 years of age. We have, by co-operation with the Hierarchy and the local clergy, seen that religious instruction is given in the technical schools, as it is in the other schools.
We have a very big and important problem to be settled there and it can be settled very constructively. I want to have selected from amongst our educationists a council of education that can sit in consultation with the Minister in connection with that particular type of development in our whole educational system.
It has been suggested that I have had difficulties with people in setting up the Council of Education. I have not. The only thing that is delaying me is a sense of the importance of the work to be done, the desire I have to envisage it in the widest possible way and be ready to meet the council of education and guide them and take their guidance in seeing that the whole of the educational problem involved from 12 to 16 or 18 years of age is fully envisaged at this important hour of our national and economic life. Therefore there is no point in my going further into details. I can put proposals before you and I would put proposals before you for increasing the school-leaving age at the present time. The Commission on Youth Employment, the chairman of which is His Grace the Archbishop of Dublin, sent an interim report to the Department some time in 1944 indicating that they were going to put forward as one of their proposals when they reported that the school-leaving age be increased. It might be suggested that with that warning, in Dublin at any rate, an extension of building either for primary schools or technical schools should be gone ahead with. However, apart altogether from the difficulties of building in the last four years, I do not think that any Minister for Education envisaging the whole problem would move in that particular matter until he had received the report of that commission. If the commission had found it necessary to arrive at a decision to make a communication like that to the Minister for Education they must have had a lot more to say and I think it would be important to have the report of that commission before taking any positive steps towards making any changes in the system. I think I did say before that the previous Minister for Education had a Departmental review made of the possible changes there ought to be in the educational system from, say, 12 to 16 years of age. I have not considered that any purpose would be served by making any publication of those Departmental suggestions because I think that any suggestions made in that Departmental report which was prepared shortly before I took office had better be discussed by a council of education in close consultation with experienced officers of the Department.
I would ask Deputy McCann and others not to come here and, in the most public spot in Ireland, complain of dilatoriness on the part of the Department of Education lasting over four, five or six months when they have not taken the trouble to make the slightest representations to myself. It is quite unfair and most unbusiness-like. If there is any educational establishment, other than perhaps the headquarters of the I.N.T.O., that is closely in touch with the Department of Education it is the Vocational Education Committee's office. There is hardly a day in the week and, at any rate, there is no week in the year when there is not full telephonic communication on quite a number of matters between the officers of the Department of Education and the officers of the Vocational Education Committee. It is extravagant to charge the Department with being dilatory and not dealing with any matter in discussion with either the executive officers or the Vocational Education Committee itself. I did receive a deputation recently from the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee and we discussed the whole of their programme for the next two years.
It was agreed that the committee would proceed at once with three extensions in their existing day schools; one at Marlborough Street, Denmark Street and Aldborough Parade, North Strand. These are for boys. It was also agreed that they should go ahead with a new school at Clogher Road, one of the three regional schools they had in mind. They also had in mind a regional school at Whitehall for boys and girls and one at Killester. I suggested to them that they had plenty on hand, that they should go ahead with their three extensions and Clogher Road School at the present time and that they could come to a final decision as to the last details with regard to the school in Whitehall when they had gained experience in watching the advancement of the Clogher Road School to completion. I do know that there is the completest possible understanding between myself and the Vocational Educational Committee in Dublin. We are in close touch and we keep in close touch and I take the greatest possible interest in their developments. It is a fact that pound for pound while Cork and other urban areas may get £4 of Government grants to £1 that comes from the rates, Dublin and Dun Laoghaire get £2 as against £1 that comes from the rates. No serious damage is done either to the interests or to the rights of Dublin, as far as I can see, in fixing the grants in that way. Half of the £115,000 that the City of Dublin will be expending on their present work will be the responsibility of the State. There is, I think, another £15,000 that the Dublin Committee propose to use but, if it is used in a particular way, half that amount will be refunded by the State, too.
Deputy Briscoe complained that there was a lack of educational facilities of a secondary kind in his area. There is a private secondary school for girls on the Crumlin Road but the development of secondary schools in the city, as in any other part of the country, is a matter of private initiative. The position with regard to secondary schools is that they are all privately owned. The State pays a sizeable grant in respect of children of particular ages with which the school is maintained and the basic salaries of the teachers paid. The State provides whatever amount of additional money is required.
The general complaint with regard to the dilapidation of schools and the State's responsibility in relation thereto is a very serious matter. However, sometimes I feel that there is no part in this country where a person is able to straighten a slate on a roof. It seems to me that a great deal of the dilapidation that is complained of is dilapidation due to neglect. There is no doubt that there is a certain foundation for the condemnation of some of the schools by the county medical officers of health but I feel that the neglect of our graveyards and the neglect of our schools have something very much in common and that a certain development of citizenship would result in the prevention of a great deal of that dilapidation.
It is quite true that some managers have very serious responsibilities, and that these responsibilities and the cost of building their schools and maintaining their churches have become very heavy as a result of war conditions. To think that you can turn aside from local responsibility and local power to do the work of maintenance, repair and building and throw all the responsibility on some central machine is simply just to bury your local talent. The State cannot step in to do parochial work. That can only be done by parochial persons, so that while I am quite satisfied that there is work here to be done that may throw additional cost on the State, and I am fully prepared to discuss the general problem with all those who have any responsibility for it, I do not face that discussion on the understanding that the State has to support all this. I think it would be a very disastrous thing for the citizenship, for the character and morale in this country if parochial responsibility of this kind were simply thrown over on the State.
The rule in the past was that the local people had to provide one-third of the cost of a new school. Up to a couple of years ago the actual figure that was provided was about 25 per cent. In the last two or three years, it has come down to 17 per cent., down to 15 per cent. and down to about 13 per cent. That is a point at which a scheme of assistance cannot be maintained.
This is in regard to the maintenance of the schools.
Maintenance is a matter for the locality.
You have two types of schools, the vested and the non-vested.
I am talking of the vested schools which are local parish property. Leaving out of question the cases where there have been neglect and serious dilapidation, the maintenance of a school in a parish where you have a couple of handy-men, a paint brush and a couple of hammers ought not to be a very serious thing from year to year.
The Minister must know himself, from his visits to the country, that even schools that were built mostly by the State are in a condition of dilapidation.
The principal responsibility there is for the local people. It is for them to see that the schools are going to be a credit to themselves and a credit to the neighbourhood in the same way as their churches are. It is quite true that the condition in which a school is has a very powerful effect on the children, the teacher and the neighbourhood. Any neighbourhood that would tolerate its school being in a half-battered way is a neighbourhood that cannot flourish either intellectually or economically.
The State helps to build the schools but does not do anything further about them.
Last year the State paid 85 per cent. of the cost of putting up any school and of any substantial improvements that were made in schools throughout the country, and the local people were asked to bear in respect of construction or improvements only 15 per cent. However, there is a problem there. It is a problem that can be solved, and it must be faced by a new orientation of mind in certain localities where there has been neglect. No person can say that the State is not doing its part in making provision to meet it.
The extension of technical schools has been discussed. My difficulty in the matter of giving permission to increase the number of schools that are being built is that, from the point of view of licensing alone, I have been restricted to something like £500,000 as an annual expenditure. I have had to earmark £300,000 of that for primary work, about £50,000 for secondary schools and £50,000 for technical schools. Another £100,000 is money that is kept under the control of the Minister for Industry and Commerce for other aspects of school building that I may dip into from time to time but that I have not complete responsibility for. The £50,000 is not a great lot spread over the technical schools. I think that, on what is called a superpriority programme, I have rather spread myself a little bit more than I may be entitled to. With a number of vocational education committees I have had quite satisfactory and quite understanding discussions. I would be glad to deal with each vocational education committee in that way. They are the people who are up against the practical side of life. I have not found any want of reason or understanding in any of the various committees that I have had discussions with as regards their understanding of present difficulties.
What I have said with regard to the maintenance of schools applies to heating and cleaning. We pay half the cost. The manager has to apply for it. There is no delay in making payment when the manager applies for it.
Do the managers always apply?
I understand there are cases where managers do not.
That is the position.
At any rate, there cannot be many cases. I again emphasise that there has been no reduction in the amount—in the type of grants that are being made for the cleaning of schools.
There has been a considerable amount of reference to the position with regard to Irish in the infants' schools and the changes that have been made. I think it may be well to touch on that. The original National Programme Conference in 1922 stipulated, with regard to infants, that "the work in the infant classes is to be entirely in Irish". The situation was reviewed by the Primary Programme Conference in 1925, and following an examination of the situation it reported as follows with regard to the National Programme Conference report:
"One of the leading characteristics of that programme is in its insistence on the principle of teaching the infant classes through the medium of Irish. The members of our conference agreed on the supreme importance of giving effect as far as possible to this principle; and in confirmation of their belief they received authoritative evidence. It was argued with much weight that a `direct' method of teaching Irish, continued during the length of an ordinary school day for a few years between the ages of four and eight, would be quite sufficient—given trained and fluent teachers—to impart to children a vernacular power over the language, while, in the case of older children, it was shown that such a result would be more difficult of attainment. The members of the conference were, therefore, at one in holding that the true and only method of establishing Irish as a vernacular is the effective teaching of it to the infants.
With this point in view, we would recommend that the Department favour—it could not, for many evident reasons, make obligatory—the policy of having the infants entrusted to the best Irish teacher in each school—even if that teacher be the principal of the school. Having had much evidence before us to the effect that the methods at present being followed in the teaching of infants—and especially in the teaching of language to them—leave much to be desired, we would also suggest that some wellqualified persons — inspectors or others—should be devoted, partially at least, to the duty of giving lectures, specimen lessons, etc., to such teachers throughout the country as seem to need this help.
Yet, in this matter of teaching Irish to the very young children, it was felt by us that the principle of the motto festina lente is especially applicable. The note, which in the national programme stood at the head of the course for infants, while in some cases it proved of the greatest utility, in other instances had some harmful results. Its wording, being absolute and making no allowance for difficulties, made a literal obedience to it sometimes impossible, and often inadvisable. Though assurances were given that the note would not be applied without discretion, it was left standing unchanged. Consequently, it was sometimes treated as a dead letter; sometimes—more often—it resulted in inefficient teaching.
We have, therefore, changed its wording; and we hope that in its new form it may serve as an indication to all teachers of what should be their aim, and at the same time serve as a practical direction and a sympathetic exhortation to those of them who are not as yet fully qualified in Irish."
The notes run:—
"The work in the infants' classes between the hours of 10.30 and 2 o'clock is to be entirely in Irish where the teachers are sufficiently qualified. All teachers holding bilingual or higher certificates are regarded as sufficiently qualified, but the possession of such certificates is not regarded as an essential qualification.
It is expected that the use of Irish for infants' teaching will be gradually extended until the stage is reached when, in all schools, the work of the infants' classes will be done entirely in Irish."
That was changed in 1934, when the notes were made to read:—
"The work in the infant classes is to be entirely in Irish where the teachers are sufficiently qualified. All teachers holding bilingual or higher certificates are regarded as sufficiently qualified, but the possession of such certificates is not regarded as an essential qualification."
The position was changed in the notes issued in July of last year to read as follows:—
"The aim of the infant school is to provide the atmosphere and background in which the child's whole personality may develop naturally and easily. It should, therefore, take cognisance of the child's interests, activities and speech needs, and utilise them to the full in aiding and directing such development.
The present programme positively integrates with this a further aim, that of giving to young children, from English-speaking homes, a vernacular power over Irish at an age when they are most adaptable and imitative and when their vocal organs are plastic. Where the teachers are sufficiently qualified the aim should be to reach a stage as early as possible at which Irish can be used as the sole language of the infant school."
The change brought about in that way might be regarded as hearkening back to the 1925 programme, but it was really in order to bring the rule back into conformity with practice. It was done in quite a number of schools in various counties and it was introduced into the programme that, where the managers wished it, English would be taught for half-an-hour a day.
It is quite wrong to suggest that under these regulations Irish can be avoided as a language of instruction in infant classes. Anyone in touch with children who are taught in two languages and with the work done in the infant schools, will know that after a few months in the infant schools where the work carried on is of a kindergarten kind, where you have a teacher who knows Irish and who knows how to handle the children, the children begin to speak the Irish language quite naturally. There would be few cases where, after six months, the work of the schools could not be entirely through Irish, so for the last one and a half years in the infant school there would be nothing to prevent satisfactory work being done through Irish where the teacher is competent to do it. Where there are older teachers who have not the competency there are the younger teachers and the teachers now going out and they are perfectly well able to do their work through the medium of Irish.
Does the Minister agree that the size of the class will have some bearing?
I do, and that is the thing that particularly offsets me with regard to conditions in the City of Dublin. I think it is quite unreasonable to expect any kind of first-class results from an infant class, where you have infants coming from English-speaking homes and they are in classes of 60, 70 or 80 and are being dealt with in Irish. I will leave nothing undone that I can do to improve that particular side of things in the places where you have this particular problem. I appreciate the dig that Deputy Breathnach gave me on this particular matter. The dig will not do me any harm and may help me to do some good, but I do not think anybody could be satisfied that proper work could be done under these circumstances.
Mr. de Valera
Is it not an accommodation problem mainly?
That is one of the difficulties, but whether it is accommodation or additional teachers it will be given careful consideration. I am satisfied that we must take steps to get rid of these difficulties. It may be easier to get rid of the difficulty of the teachers, to provide additional teachers in the City of Dublin, than it would be to provide additional accommodation at the present time.
Mr. Byrne
What is the position with regard to the teachers, the Irish National Teachers' Organisation and the Minister? How are things getting on?
I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything in that regard beyond this, that we are getting on very well, thanks.
Mr. Byrne
Are you meeting the Irish National Teachers' Organisation and giving them satisfaction?
Am I giving them satisfaction? I could not say, but I meet them very often. I think the question is a silly one, if the Deputy will pardon me saying so.
Mr. Byrne
They got no increase— the teachers have not got an increase.
I think that is a cheap criticism. I have set up a committee of the type set up in Great Britain and the North of Ireland under Judge Roe to inquire into the matter and I am waiting for the report.
I understand that it is nearly ready.
Perhaps it is. I move to report progress.
Progress reported; the Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 5th May.