Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 May 1949

Vol. 115 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following amendment:—

Go gcuirfear an Meastachán ar n-ais chun athbhreithnithe—(Tomás Ó Deirg).

Minister for Education (General Mulcahy)

Various matters of importance were referred to during the discussion on these Estimates that one would like to deal with in certain detail but I do not think this is exactly the time to do it. Deputy Butler, for instance, referred to the old monitorial system and made a rather plausible case for thinking that some first-class material was being prevented from coming into the teaching profession by the abolition of that system. As far back as 1924-25 and 1926-27, that system was generally commented on. I will give as a sample an extract from the Department of Education Report of 1924-25:—

"It will be seen from the above figures that since the beginning of the present century the monitorial system has been on the decline."

In the subsequent year the report dealt with that matter also. In 1931 the leaving certificate examination was made the basis of entry to the teaching profession and the report said:—

"It is difficult to see how the old monitorial system based on the appointment of suitable boys and girls to national schools throughout the country, urban and rural, could be operated if the leaving certificate is to be the minimum test for admission to training. There is the desirability, if it could be successfully worked, of testing the candidates' vocation for teachers before accepting them for training but, if the present standard of scholarship is to be maintained, not to speak of its being improved, the monitorial system of giving vocational experience in national schools, and testing the candidates' suitability as a result of such experience, could not be the solution of the problem."

I suppose that would be fairly generally agreed.

Certain questions were raised also with regard to the number of places in the training colleges and in the preparatory colleges allotted to certain areas of the country where Irish is spoken. There is a certain allocation of places to people with an 85 per cent. knowledge of oral Irish, that is, persons who are candidates for the preparatory colleges and sit for special competitive examination. Fifty per cent. of these places are reserved for candidates who get 85 per cent. in oral Irish and half of these 50 places must be given to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. That gives a 25 per cent. representation in the preparatory colleges. In the training colleges about half of the places for girls and half of the places for boys are reserved for the preparatory colleges. So, there is a substantial, but not too substantial, provision there made for people who can be expected to be natural and traditional speakers of the language.

Again, that is a matter of recruitment and I feel that it will be appreciated from what I said last night that I am not necessarily putting too many things on the long finger just for the sake of avoiding taking decisions with regard to them. I am avoiding making changes in certain things at the present moment because over a rather wide sphere a considerable number of changes may be desirable, all dovetailing into one another, and I want to see that when these changes are proposed by myself or proposed by anybody outside they will not be decided on a narrow personal or narrow Departmental issue, that I will have the satisfaction of knowing that either my proposals or any other person's proposals are being reviewed by a body competent to discuss the matter with me and to advise me generally with regard to them.

The same applies to the primary certificate. I do not think it is fair to deny children leaving the primary schools a type of certificate that employers are looking for and, while Deputy Palmer asked last night that the standard of the primary certificate should be advanced so as to be set at the age of 16 years, I think that where children go through the full primary school programme satisfactorily and have to leave before they come to the age of 16, they are entitled to have whatever certificate they can get. At any rate, the primary certificate has been established and I do not propose to interfere with the primary certificate in any way until there is a better understanding of why it is necessary or why some kind of certificate is necessary for children who are going out into employment from the primary schools.

It has been suggested that the radio should be more extensively used for schools. I am not proposing anything in that line at the present time for the reason that, having regard to the difficulties that arise out of the programme and the syllabus, the cost that is involved and the organisation that would be necessary, I do not think it is worth bothering about at the present moment while there are so many other things to be decided and that require attention and that require money.

A number of Deputies have spoken of the difficulty of talented children of workers getting advancement through the educational system. I do not think that that can be really seriously argued. There may be cases where talented children have not been advanced, but, with the system that there is of scholarships from primary schools to secondary schools and the system of county council scholarships from secondary schools to the university, I think there is a very fair opening. I do find a difference in standard between some of the various bodies that give these scholarships, particularly in relation to the means test and, in some cases, in relation to the amount of the scholarships that they give. I have been considering how we can have that matter harmonised a little more so as to make it clear that there is a fair opening both from primary to secondary schools and from secondary schools to the university, and that the provision that is made of giving scholarships is such a provision as will enable children to take advantage of it.

The question of the amalgamation of certain schools has been advocated here by quite a number of Deputies. A certain amount of amalgamation has taken place and there has gradually been an extension of the transport system to more central schools. With regard to amalgamation, while there are very strong grounds urging amalgamation in certain places, there is the admitted difficulty in the one and two-teacher type of schools that the one or two teachers have to teach the whole gamut of the primary programme. On the other hand, I have great hesitation in shutting down a school in any area because I feel that the removal of a school from any area means the hastening of the passing of the population there.

Mr. de Valera

Quite right.

General Mulcahy

I have been particularly impressed by that feature in regard to removing schools in Irish-speaking districts or places where the language still has any great strength. In that case it is almost as bad as uprooting the Church. While there are circumstances in which I have to exert strong pressure to get schools amalgamated, all my instinct is to preserve small schools in rural areas even against difficulties.

Mr. de Valera

Before the Minister passes from that point, has he considered the question of residences for the teachers so that the teachers will not have to travel miles to and from their schools, thereby practically completely divorcing themselves from the little community which they serve?

General Mulcahy

There was a system at one time under which teachers' residences were provided. The Department of Education has surrendered complete control of these residences and they are no longer part of the educational scheme.

Mr. de Valera

Would the Minister not consider examining the position to see whether it might not be desirable where conditions make it practicable?

General Mulcahy

I appreciate the fact that in certain areas there is a sense of loss, particularly where teachers teaching in rural schools live in nearby towns and not in the areas the schools serve. There is no doubt there is a social loss there. I do not know what the size of the problem would be in relation to building residences for our teachers. I do know, however, that our difficulties in getting local finance and local support to build the schools themselves are so great that it is very doubtful if we would succeed in the other.

Mr. de Valera

It would have to be a regular State scheme. There would be difficulties.

General Mulcahy

I feel the situation in the matter of teachers' residences has gone so far now that until we are able to deal more effectively with the school position itself we would be taking on a little bit too much. I certainly would favour any kind of scheme that would ensure that the teachers lived among the people whom they served.

Deputy Hickey raised the question of rent allowances. The only exception to the general rent allowance scheme is an exception in the City of Dublin in relation to secondary schools. I understand it affects only two schools. I admit it is illogical to have a difference there but I have not considered whether the irregularity is so great that it requires to be smoothed over. The fact is that the only exception in the whole scheme is in respect of secondary schools in the City of Dublin and it only affects teachers teaching in two schools.

With regard to secondary education, a point was raised by Deputy Mrs. Redmond. It is an important point. She asked that the results of the intermediate and leaving certificate examinations be published earlier. There is a difficulty there. About 4,000 girls and 4,000 boys sit for the intermediate certificate and about 2,500 girls and 2,500 boys sit for the leaving certificate. The really important results are the leaving certificate because it is upon these subsequent advancement towards university or other work depends. I hope to have the results out this year by possibly the 4th August. I think that is a reasonable date in view of the difficulty of getting the papers examined. The results of the intermediate certificate will not be out until some time in September. I am persuaded that there is no real disadvantage in people having to wait for the intermediate certificate results because the fourth year pupils pass on automatically to the fifth year. The real difficulty is that the chief examiner in any particular subject can only handle about 20 or 25 assistant examiners. Each of these can only do approximately 25 papers a day over a continuous period. We cannot have more than one chief examiner for any particular subject and the number of assistant examiners that he can effectively use is, therefore, limited. In the case of a subject like mathematics where three different sections of the paper have to be examined by three different assistant examiners there is the added difficulty of the association of the markings. From the physical point of view there is an enormous job to be done. I am satisfied that it is done as expeditiously and as systematically as possible. If there is any way in which I can improve the situation my Department will only be too glad to undertake it.

Deputy Mrs. Redmond also raised the question of non-nationals in our schools. The position is that non-nationals are allowed to take the examination without doing Irish in order to get an examination certificate but they are not recognised as pupils in the secondary schools; that is, fees are not paid for them. In respect of non-nationals who begin their secondary education in this country no concession of that particular kind is given and I am not, therefore, quite clear as to what the point of complaint is.

On the general question on which Deputy Derrig referred back this Estimate for reconsideration—that is what might be described as a general attitude on the part of the Government as indicated by certain reductions in the grants dealing with Irish which might operate to convince the people that the Government was not serious with regard to the Irish language— I should like to make a few points. It takes us generally to Vote 49. I think I made it clear yesterday that the cut of £1,000 in regard to the National Museum is not a cut definitely restricting expenditure. There is at the present moment about £3,000 in the Suspense Account of the National Museum and the cut of £1,000 is made simply because that money would not be used, if it were voted.

The apparent cut in respect of the Irish Committee of Historical Sciences arose out of the fact that the committee intimated that they will not be able to go ahead with the work necessary on the history of the Famine. They will not be ready to incur any expenditure in connection with that this year and for that reason it is not necessary to provide any money for them. What is provided is the annual grant of £100. If and when they are ready to go ahead with the work on the Famine, these moneys will be available. I appreciate the Deputy's references to my attitude in regard to this matter, and I should like to assure him that this committee, in its general work, will have the fullest support of the Government. We appreciate fully the work they are doing.

With reference to the cuts in the grant to the National Film Institute, it was given substantial grants over a number of years. The annual grant was about £2,000. Last year we did cut the grant from £2,000 to £1,000 on the grounds of economy but actually during the year only £300 was spent by the Film Institute. Naturally having spent about £2,000 per annum over a number of years, they have accumulated a fair library of educational films and the fact that they have cut down their expenditure so much, is probably because the type of films for which they are looking are not available. At any rate, out of the £1,000 available last year they spent only £300. We appreciate the necessity for maintaining the Film Institute and it will not be left stranded in respect of any work which it is really necessary to have carried out. As regards the provision for the making of films there was an inter-Departmental Committee set up in 1943 by the Minister for Education. Two films were completed under this scheme. One was a sound film of the ceremonies in connection with the Presidential inauguration in 1945 and another was the film A Nation Once Again.

Certain sound-tracks in Irish of films have already been carried out to the number of about six. The officers of the Department have been anxious to get some more of these and for that purpose they examined quite a number of films but in fact they have found it very hard to get suitable films on which they could get an Irish sound-track. A number have been examined and some of them have been found to have faults from the point of view of history, religion or philosophy or to suffer from some other defects. We are doing everything we possibly can to see whether we can get an additional number of films with an Irish sound-track. I want to see in what way we can get an Irish sound-track on some of the films shown in the ordinary picture-houses. I do not know whether it would be possible to get an Irish sound-track on say, newsreels, but I think it would be a useful thing if we could get an Irish sound-track on reels coming out in the natural ordinary way. I propose to have that matter investigated with a view to seeing if it is possible and to ascertain what the cost would be. It would be a simple and ready way of getting the Irish language brought out in a prominent and interesting manner in connection with current matters shown in our cinemas. It would avoid what is a great difficulty—the difficulty of procuring and getting films made for ourselves. We realise the importance of the film just as we realise the importance of radio in getting the Irish language out on to the streets. If it is possible to do anything in that way, we shall do our best to have it done.

Objection has also been taken to the cut in the grant for the Place Names Commission. I appreciate to the full the value of the investigation, and the development of the use, of our place names in spreading an appreciation of the language and, in relation to that, the re-clothing of our traditions with the history of past civilisation. While it is true that it was part of the economy move to cut down the expenses of the Place Names Commission last year, we were also influenced by a feeling that there should be a better type of organisation to deal with the matter. We have maintained one of the principal officers dealing with place names, and the records have been properly kept but Deputies will realise the spirit and the purpose for which we have extended the grant to the Folklore Commission. I propose to consider whether the work on place names cannot be suitably associated with the work of the Folklore Commission. I feel that it will be fruitful in many ways to have the place names work associated with the work of the Folklore Commission because there is a considerable amount of voluntary work, and a number of voluntary workers available in the Folklore Commission field that can be most useful on the work of place names. I feel that it is very hard to draw a clear line of demarcation between our place names and our folklore and all that is meant by that.

There have been criticisms of the cuts in the grants for the Irish papers —Feasta, Comhar and Indiu. They do not come under my Department, but I am very interested in the matter. That interest is inspired by educational rather than by purely financial considerations. I appreciate how important it is to give an opening for young writers to try their hand at producing work in Irish to-day. I feel that unless there is an opening of that particular kind we shall not get over the difficulties we are experiencing in getting writers to produce books for the Gúm or any other public concern through the medium of Irish. If it is necessary to get writers, it is also necessary to get readers, and the blot there is at the present time on the paper position with regard to Feasta, Comhar and Indiu, is that while substantial sums have been spent on them to keep them in being, there has not been anything like a corresponding response from the reading public.

Mr. de Valera

There has been considerable expansion in readers, has there not?

General Mulcahy

There has been a very small expansion, even after a very considerable amount of organisation and work. I appreciate that we want that expansion increased. Probably the reading public, whether in English or in Irish and in spite of all the literature, magazines, and so forth we see floating around, is not as numerous as we might expect it to be. It is easier to look at an illustrated paper than at a paper which asks you to think, as any of the periodicals in Irish will ask you to do. There is not, as far as I am concerned or as far as the Minister for Finance is concerned, any intention to withhold help from any of these papers that will keep them going for another year or two—at any rate, until they have an opportunity of seeing what they can do. It will be necessary, in the case of each of these papers, that they will look after their own organisation and expenses and finances and that they will look after their circulation. There is, therefore, a problem to be discussed there, and there is a problem to be discussed there with the bodies that are running these papers.

There are three different and distinct types of papers. The Comhar is a paper that, I realise, is attracting writers among the younger university section of our people. There is a rather interesting scheme in the universities generally for developing writing in various categories. University College, Dublin, has given a cup for, say, short stories. Trinity College has given a cup for, say, something else, Irish poetry. University College, Cork, has given another and University College, Galway, has given another for annual competition among university students with a view to attracting writers. Comhar gives them an opening for the publication of these writings during the year. I think it would be a pity that Comhar would be allowed to drop, but there is a limit to the amount of money that, from the point of view of commonsense, can be spent on these organisations if there is not a very business-like and systematic drive on the part of those who are really interested to produce the periodicals systematically and economically and to have them circulated. I appreciate that the cost of printing to-day is a very serious burden on people producing any kind of an organ and particularly people producing an organ through the medium of Irish. Therefore, I expect that conversations and discussions will take place with the organisers and the managers of these papers with a view to having an understanding as to how they can economise, where economies are possible, and how they can best improve their publications and either make them more attractive to the people or get them better appreciated by the people as they are.

That leads us to the Gúm. Deputy Timoney raised in a very small way some question about Cumann na Scribhnéoirí and some suggestions that had been made on their behalf. Briefly, the proposal is that the machinery of the Gúm would be done away with and that a separate body would be set up and that something like £70,000 a year would be given to a board that would look after the procuring of writers and the remuneration of writers and the publishing of books. I have not been able to go fully into the whole of the difficulties that are involved in regard to the Gúm but the principal difficulties that are involved in the production of books in the Gúm come from printing. There are quite a number of books from the Gúm that have been in the hands of the printers for three and for four years. There have been so many things to do and there is such a big problem there that requires very close and detailed going into that I have not been able to do it. When the experience of the Gúm—the experience of the writers and of the officials in the Gúm, and of the officials in the Stationery Office and of the printers—is fully examined I doubt if the setting up of a separate body and the providing of that body with money is the solution of the difficulty at the present moment. I feel that the Gúm is, in very difficult circumstances, doing difficult work and that it is doing as much as any other body could do at the present time. During the last year it has put on the market six translations, 13 original works, five pieces of music and one or two publications. It is not a very substantial output but it is something and, just as there are difficulties on the printing side, there are serious difficulties on the writers' side.

We have had a couple of books presented to the Gúm that might be regarded as real catches for a publisher if they were in English and if there was a substantial public. However, even as they are, from the point of view of Irish and style and so forth, you would like to take them and to publish them but, on questions of unsuitability— from the point of view of the nature of the books, historically or in any other way—we could not accept them. So you get difficulties of that particular kind. There are difficulties in that you have not numbers of really good writers coming along and there are also great difficulties in some cases in regard to the way in which the manuscripts are presented. These are questions, I admit, that require urgent, but also very deep and systematic examination, and it is my intention that they will get that examination and get it in a constructive spirit and get it urgently. Things require to be done that cannot be done in a day.

Mr. de Valera

Might I urge the Minister in that regard to pay particular attention to the provision of the higher text books for universities? Students come from the secondary schools where they do subjects through Irish to the universities and no text books are available for them. I know that one or two have already been published and that there are some with the Gúm. It is very important from the point of view of continued teaching through Irish that they should be provided as quickly as possible.

General Mulcahy

I will be very glad to see that that is done.

That takes us to the question of the Comhdháil. Deputy Derrig had a certain amount of diffidence in discussing my difficulties with the Comhdháil. The fact is that £10,000 was expected by the Comhdháil last year after the printing of the Estimates by the outgoing Government. With regard to the economic question on the one hand, and on a review of the manner in which the money was being expended and the results of that work, I interviewed a representative deputation of the Comhdháil at the beginning of the summer and indicated to them that they could not expect more than £8,000 for the year ended March, 1949. I indicated the line of thought I had regarding their work and the work I thought the associated group representing the voluntary bodies dealing with evangelising the cause of the Irish language could do. I feel that there is a certain amount of unity of thought in the matter but undoubtedly there is also a certain amount of difference of opinion. At any rate, I was not in a position to offer them any more than £8,000 during the year. As it so happens, they expended something like £8,700 or £8,800, so in addition to the £8,000 I was able to promise them, they got £500 or £700 more so that they would not be in debt as a result of their work for last year. But I had no desire, and I have no desire, to get into public conflict with the voluntary bodies dealing with the Irish language on questions of detail and I feel that if Deputy Derrig had consulted the members of the Comhdháil he might have hesitated to criticise me from a constructive point of view for my approach to them in the matter. I criticised the work of the Comhdháil particularly on the lack of return from the work of the organisers. They have quite a number of organisers scattered in various parts of the country, some of them working in groups. I felt that the use of organisers that way was leading nowhere from the point of view of spreading the language in a way that it would be rooted and would develop.

When I examined the various schemes they put forward last year and the year before that, I suggested that they were too varied and that it would be desirable that the Comhdháil Committee should halt for 12 months, maintain their head office, review their general experience and bring together the experience of the various bodies handling in a voluntary way the work for the Irish language and do 12 months' thinking. With £3,000 available to the head office to help them in doing that and also for their organisers as far as they wanted to maintain the organising work and see how they could perfect and improve it, they could keep five of their best organisers and transfer their activities to the English-speaking parts of Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry and Cork. They could put them to work as organisers on the flank of the Irish-speaking districts where I had already arranged for a separate inspectorate, special inspectors over a certain number of schools in Donegal, Mayo and Galway, all in purely Irish-speaking districts and not including any in the Breac-Ghaeltacht. In Munster, on account of the small number of schools, we give the inspectors charge of schools in the purely Irish-speaking districts and in the partly Irish-speaking districts. Their responsibility was not to be for a rigid area inside a line on the map but for particular schools, and they got the direction I read out last night arising out of certain criticisms that were given. That was what I wanted the Comhdháil to do. They would have £3,000 to sustain their headquarter office's work and £3,000 to do their work of organising on the flank of where I was trying to consolidate the work in the schools by a system of getting the general public of the area interested in the work of the schools, linking the work of the schools with the vocational education committees and so on. I wanted them to concentrate for 12 months.

Mr. de Valera

In the Breac-Ghaeltacht, the neighbourhood surrounding the Irish-speaking districts?

General Mulcahy

Yes. I felt that if organising work was going to do anything any place it ought to be able to do it in these districts, to sound the atmosphere and to stir the imagination and interest of the people in Irish. I felt that it could best be done on the flank of the Irish-speaking districts where I had set up the machinery for inspection. I only published my letter to the Comhdháil when, on behalf of the Comhdháil, a public statement was made criticising the Government's policy and indicating that the Government was not interested in the Irish language. One of the criticisms that is made at the present time is that because the Government is not doing certain things the Government is showing a lack of interest in the Irish language. I could not allow anybody to spread that or propagandise that. It is not so. I was reluctantly compelled then to issue the letter I had written to the Comhdháil.

I hope that Deputy Derrig and others will appreciate it when I say that I do not propose to discuss publicly the nature of the subsequent correspondence that is passing or that will pass between myself and the Comhdháil. They do not think that these parts of Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Kerry on the border of the Irish-speaking districts which I speak of are the best places for their organisers to work. I do not pretend to appreciate that, but at any rate I am very anxious to have maintained the organisation that is there of the representatives of the principal bodies working in a voluntary way to strengthen the position of the Irish language in this country and to propagandise the philosophy of the Irish language. I am terribly anxious that the body formed by the coming together of the principal representatives of these organisations should remain and find itself with a position and prestige in the country as representing the Irish language interests and what that means to the country. If there is anything I can do to keep that body together, I will do it, but I do not think it would serve their purpose to provide Government money for activities that were ultimately not going to lead to successful work. My attitude to the Comhdháil at the present time is: "Do a year's thinking with your past experience and with all the advantages that your office will give you; you will have £3,000 to maintain yourself in that; use the other £3,000, preferably in the way I say."

At any rate, I do not propose to interfere or direct in any detail any part of the work of the Comhdháil. It is a voluntary organisation that I hope will keep itself in being and will do its work well. They will work in full consultation with me and I certainly will work in full consultation with them. I will try to get them to appreciate my point of view, to appreciate what I am trying generally to do for the Irish language and I think it will not be difficult to get them to appreciate that. I will try to get them to harmonise their work as much as possible with mine. As far as directly interfering with them is concerned, I do not think that would be good for them or for me. Everybody will understand that, if we are going to pay out State grants as subsidies to the carrying on of a voluntary organisation, it must be for the carrying on of a kind of work that we see results coming from and that we hope to see results coming from. Anyone interested in the Irish language can have nothing but approval for a line of thought like that now.

If Deputy Derrig is mistrustful of my wisdom, I think he ought to consult the representatives of the Comhdháil. He indicated that he did not want to consult them beforehand, lest I should think it was the Comhdháil representatives who were getting after him. I am not one to think that about anyone. I want to be able to accept anything that anyone says here, regarding the Irish language and organisation to help it to develop entirely at its face value and judge it at its face value. All I ask is that this also be accepted from myself or any speaker on these benches. I think it is wrong, unjust and detrimental to the interests of the language to suggest that there is any assistance withheld by the Government from a really constructive movement in the country to maintain and support the language. That is only undermining our work.

Those in contact with the work of any such organisation at the present time realise how great the difficulties are. The difficulties are great because we are in a period of transition. There is a generation coming from the school that we do not know how to handle. I do not know whether any generation that ever went before us knew how to handle the generation that was coming after it. Nevertheless, they are there to be inspired and the principal way in which they may be inspired is by seeing others working in harmony and working seriously and accepting the bona fides of one another. I have gone into large schools in Limerick and Cork, where it was possible to meet all the children assembled and to know that, in a fairly long address in Irish, they understood what was being said to them. There is definitely a lag between the point at which a person will understand everything said to him in a language and will understand it thoroughly and appreciate every nuance of that language and the point at which he will speak it readily, naturally and spontaneously. Speaking it readily, naturally and spontaneously means that he has had the physical practice of doing that. Do not let us feel that, because the product of the schools do not come out speaking the language as thoroughly and over as wide a range as they understand it, there is not very great strength in the movement to-day. There is. There is one thing that can do it serious harm and that is that the older workers in the language movement should throw up their hands and say: “Ah, look at all the work and see the poor result.”

Mr. de Valera

If they could be induced to read after they left school, it would help.

General Mulcahy

That is why I would like those who read Comhair and Feasta particularly, to cogitate very much over what they want to write, so that the younger generation will read; because while there are some admirable things written in some of those papers, there are things written here and there——

Seosamh Ó Cinnéide

They will not read periodicals.

General Mulcahy

I fully subscribe to everything that has been said about Indiu. I think Indiu is a very remarkable and most useful production in the Irish language at the present moment. I have had people coming to me and complaining about the cutting of the grants for these papers and I have said to them: “Which of them do you read?” and I have not been satisfied with the answer I got. I suggest that these papers are worth buying, even if you cannot read everything you buy. I doubt if any book buyer reads everything he buys. You look at the first chapter and say you are going to read that in a quiet evening—and it goes on your library shelf. Those who are interested in seeing the language develop and spread ought to buy these papers and if they buy them often enough they may look at them often enough to be able to guide the producers of them as to what people reading Irish in a weekly, monthly or quarterly volume would like to be reading about.

Mr. de Valera

I imagine there would be more readers of books than readers of periodicals and that it would be desirable to try and induce them to read books.

General Mulcahy

The fact is that the mass national movement was built up in the past on the weekly reading of periodicals rather than on the reading of books.

Mr. de Valera

They had not got the books then.

General Mulcahy

The books are there now to a considerable extent and they are cheap. Those who are anxiously waiting for more books should think of looking over the worthwhile books which are already there. At any rate, we will try and keep these papers going. They can only be kept going really when those interested in seeing Irish brought back into full popular use go to the trouble of looking at them from time to time and reading them. If they have any advice to give to the managers and producers of these papers they should give it to them because, from the point of view of getting writers, I think if you are going to get writers in the future they will naturally try to get some of their work published in some of the Irish language papers.

The only other matter I want to deal with is the Vote for the School of Advanced Studies. Deputy Vivion de Valera spoke rather well of me and my attitude to the Institute and my encouragement of it. I do not know that I have particularly gone out of my way to do anything special for it, except that I am interested in seeing that the Institute will be a useful Institute. I mention the matter only to safeguard myself in this way. I do not think that scholarship, either on the Irish side or on the scientific side, will develop itself here in this country in isolation from the universities.

Mr. de Valera

It should not be in isolation.

General Mulcahy

I feel that the day will come when there will have to be a closer linking of the work of the Institute with the universities. I think it is rather generally charged that the standard of our scholarship in Ireland is not high. It could be higher if it were in the proper atmosphere. I do not think that we shall advance the standard of our scholarship unless the seat of the higher studies is closely associated with student life.

Mr. de Valera

I wonder will there be any opportunity of discussing this on a separate Vote. I do not know what understanding has been come to with the Chair but there are some things I should like to say on that. Is it a separate Vote?

General Mulcahy

It was understood that all these Votes were to be discussed together.

Mr. de Valera

I am sorry for that.

General Mulcahy

If it is to be discussed, I would prefer that it should be discussed on an occasion when we could settle down somewhat systematically to do it. I just wanted to make that point particularly, arising out of Deputy de Valera's remarks.

Mr. de Valera

I should like to say that I would agree with the Minister, but it depends on how the thing is to be done. The Institute was never intended to be in isolation. If it has been in isolation, it has been because those in charge somehow brought it about.

General Mulcahy

When we were dealing with the Supplementary Estimate at the beginning of the year there was a question of the non-filling of certain vacancies in the School of Celtic Studies. A recommendation has now come from the governing bodies that the two vacancies in that school should be filled, and that matter is being favourably considered at the moment.

Mr. de Valera

I do not know if the Minister ever saw the recommendation which came from the secretary of the Studies Section of the Irish Academy. It was on that we based the foundation orders of the school. If the Minister can get a hold of that, I think he will find that there is an immense amount of work to be done and that it would be a great mistake to leave any vacancies unfilled for any length of time.

General Mulcahy

I expect that these two vacancies will be filled this year.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire mar gheall ar fhograíocht sna páipéirí nuachta. Tugadh comhairle ó na binnsí so anuraidh go mba cheart, dá mb'fhéidir é, na fógraí ón Roinn Oideachais, pé scéal é, a chur amach i nGaeilge; agus ag tagairt do na páipéirí Gaeilge féin, tagann sé im aigne go mbéidir go mbreathnódh an tAire isteach sa scéal, féachaint an bhféadfaidís cúnamh a thabhairt dóibh súid i dtaobh fógraí. Ní dóigh liom go bhfaighann siad an oiread fógraí is a gheibheann na páipéirí faoin tuaith. Is dóigh liomsa gur trua go bhfuil an Roinn Oideachais ag cur amach fógraí i mBéarla amháin agus má tá ceist ann mar gheall ar shábháilt airgid, nó má cheapann an tAire nach ceart iad a chur amach i nGaeilge agus i mBéarla, cad chuige nach féidir leo leanúint le fógraí i nGaeilge amháin?

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Rud a thuigeas ná gur i nGaeilge amháin a cuirfear amach fógraí ón Roinn Oideachais feasta.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Bhí dhá cheann sna páipéirí le linn na coicísé seo caite.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Ní fheadar an raibh aon chúis faoi leith chuige sin, ach isé an riail, de ghnáth, maidir leis na fógraí a cuirtear amach ag an Roinn, gur i nGaeilge a bheadh siad.

Motion: "That the Estimate be referred back for consideration," by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.