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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 20 May 1949

Vol. 115 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Agriculture (Resumed).

I want to-day, in a factual approach to these problems, to correct misapprehension where it exists and to expose fraud and deception where it has been attempted. For a very long time the Fianna Fáil Party in this country has sought to propagate the falsehood that those who are not subservient to its leadership had no true appreciation of what form the agricultural industry should take in this country, and, by the use of a continuous stream of falsehood and by the use of a body of their weak-minded creatures that constitute the bulk of the Party who were provided with written pieces to go around from corner to corner and bawl from the ditches, they have largely succeeded in imposing on the poorer quality of their followers the illusion that they believe in tillage and that nobody else does. Long before the name of Fianna Fáil was ever heard in this country, a very distinguished public servant, the late Mr. Patrick Hogan, laid down the sound fundamentals for a successful agricultural policy in this country in a very telling phrase: "One more cow, one more sow and one more acre under the plough," and in that aphorism he emphasised that mixed farming is what provides the maximum employment on the land of Ireland and provides the maximum return from the land of Ireland, and involves for its successful performance, the maximum tillage, in intelligent rotation, for the most effective exploitation of the resources with which our people have been blessed by the Lord Almighty.

The result of the practice of that policy from 1922 to 1931 was that when a storm of unprecedented fury swept the world, bringing down Governments and nations and shaking the foundations of the very United States itself, an economic survey of the world, at the darkest hour of that international disaster, brought Ireland under review and said that it was a matter of amazement to the surveyors of the state of the world that one country, which ordinarily might have been expected to suffer as much as any other: that one country, whose resources were by no means abundant, stood out amongst the nations of the world as, apparently, having suffered less than any other in the economic tornado that was sweeping so many to their ruin and destruction. Our people, in that hour, in the exercise of the glorious freedom we enjoy, exercised their undoubted constitutional right in the sphere of politics to do wrong, and, glorying in the right to do wrong in the sphere of politics, they marched to the polls and they rejected the Government which stood for that policy. They installed Fianna Fáil and economic self-sufficiency, whereupon the whole world, having gone through the martyrdom of this economic catastrophe, began to stagger to its feet and, slowly and painfully, to climb up the mountain side down which it had come crashing, and, as the rest of the civilised world crept upwards, what was its astonishment to meet one modest pilgrim marching with its head erect down the hill, deliberately, resolutely and determinedly under the leadership of that God-given leader, Eamon dé Valera.

From 1932 to 1948, with firm, unyielding step, they reduced the output of milk, they reduced the output of butter, they reduced the output of every crop per acre that is grown in this country, they reduced the number of cattle, they reduced the number of pigs, they reduced the quantity of grass that could grow. They evolved, I think as the first country in Europe, a variety of grass that would fill a cow's stomach and yet that would let her die of starvation where she stood— for that is the correct description of aphosphorosis. I have seen cattle in this country eat their fill of green grass and lie down to die of starvation.

And, in that interesting hour, the unexpected happened. Nobody is more willing to concede than I am that when I stood for election at the last general election in County Monaghan I would have laid 40 to 1 against myself as Minister for Agriculture. But it is the odd chance often that saves a nation, and I suppose the good Lord determined that this country had been faithful for so long, it had borne de Valera on its back long enough, and this Government came into office and removed him.

What I want, if I can, is finally to lay the bogey that Fianna Fáil was the promoter of tillage and that their opponents desired to prevent it. Sometimes I cannot help feeling that some of my own colleagues, having listened for 15 years to the symphonic braying of the members of the Fianna Fáil Party, have allowed certain echoes of that braying to lodge themselves in their minds. I heard some of my colleagues say: "If our Minister was opposed to tillage we would be opposed to him." I want to submit to my colleagues that that is as rational as saying that "if our Minister declared it to be his intention to spend the rest of his life walking on his hands, we would represent to the Taoiseach that it was time to suggest to him that it would be more becoming if he were to walk on his feet." But, you see, the implication of that prudent reservation is, "well, probably he is a little bit daft, but he is not quite as daft as that."

I have frequently said, and I want to say it again, that one of the most valuable crops that we can grow on our soil and with our climate and our markets is grass. But grass is a crop, and it is a crop that must find its place in a rotation of crops. You can have the kind of grass that rational farmers need, not the grass that fills a cow's stomach before she lies down to die of starvation—that is Fianna Fáil grass. But real grass, nourishing grass, produces milk that is the source, the ultimate source, of almost every food the human race consumes. That kind of grass is one crop in a rotation of crops and there is no other way of getting it, because if you leave permanent grass over a protracted period undisturbed, the finer and more valuable grass would in the ordinary course of nature be suppressed, the coarse, less nutritious grass would prevail, and the sward would lose from half to two-thirds of its nutritive capacity.

To that general rule there are exceptions. In Wiltshire in England and in the County Meath in Ireland there are certain fattening swards of venerable age and nobody knows the explanation of why they have that quality. I brought to these grasslands in Meath some of the most distinguished scientists, who are authorities upon soil science and the botany of grass. I asked them if they could explain how it was that in County Meath you had one field on one side of a hedge which would fatten a beast, whereas the field on the other side of the hedge would only bring a beast to the stage of a forward store. They told me they had seen the same phenomenon in Wiltshire in England. They examined the soil and the grass and they told me that there is not any answer to the question, because nobody knows an answer. It is one of the things that scientists are at present studying, to try to find out what is the explanation of that phenomenon, for phenomenon it certainly is.

But it is the rare exception to the general rule. The general rule all over this country must be that if you want the kind of grass which forms the foundation of a successful mixed farming policy, it must appear as one crop in a recognised rotation, which involves probably three or four cereal or root crops with a two or three-year grass crop in the rotation. Therefore, let us be clear on this, there is no special virtue in ploughing, there is no special virtue in digging up the ground for the fun of digging up the ground. The virtue of tillage is that it is the correct user of the soil God gave us in order to get the maximum return from it, while at the same time leaving that soil a little better than we found it.

I have gone repeatedly to ploughing matches. It was a favourite practice of Fianna Fáil Ministers and Deputies to go to ploughing matches; and there grew up a tendency at these ploughing matches for boys to arrive in the field with a pair of horses and a plough and a footman. They proceeded to plough a furrow and the footmen went after the furrow packing it all along the line. Then the plough would stop and they would all gather round and have a conference. I saw one fellow take a foot rule to measure up the furrow in order to ensure that he was keeping within the limitations. They eventually reached the stage when they were not ploughing the land to sow a crop on it. They were sowing a crop on the land in order to get a chance of ploughing it. That is insanity. That is turning the whole purpose of life upside down. You do not plough land in order to make pretty patterns on the soil. The primary purpose of ploughing land is to sow in it a crop that will grow. If you so far pervert the whole agricultural outlook of this country that the men who live out of the land consider it more important to make pretty patterns where they work and leave the land lying as if it was done with a needle and thread —though it takes you six weeks to plough an acre—than it is to do a good workmanlike job and get a crop in, then you have perverted the whole purpose of agriculture; and you have done so because you never knew its purpose.

The purpose of the Department of Agriculture now is to extract from the soil of this country committed to our care the maximum return for the man and his family who live upon the land and get their living from it, and to extract from the soil of this country committed to our care the maximum income for the nation of which it forms the foundation. But, over and above these two essentials, it is our purpose to ensure that at the end of every year the land of every holding will be a little better after the harvest is done than the farmer who worked upon it found it when he broke his first sod. The policy of this Government involves that in due rotation and in its proper time every arable acre of land in this country must receive its toll of tillage, not for the purpose of making pretty patterns on the ground but for the purpose of ensuring that in every succeeding generation the land of Ireland in the hands of the Irish people will give the maximum yield which, under God's Providence, it was meant to give so that when an account is rendered of our user of what was entrusted to us we shall be able to say, individually and as a nation, that it was used to our best ability to feed the hungry, to maintain the families of those who worked upon it and to ensure that the abundance it produced would never grow less. That is the position of your Minister for Agriculture. That was always his position. It has never changed. I submit to you, my colleagues in this House, the interesting fact that the intelligentsia who sit in front of us has had 15 years of my speeches on this Estimate. Yet they have not been able to find one single phrase I ever spoke in the House in all those 15 years that they could quote against me after I had been only 12 months in that Department which I myself had been criticising for 15 years in Opposition. Do not doubt but that if there was a phrase to be found which they could quote against me, those of them who can read would have found it.

Some specific matters have been raised here with which I wish to deal. The first is flax. I first communicated the events leading to the negotiations about our flax to this House. On the following day I went down to Monaghan, to my own constituency, to communicate the facts to my own constituents in a parish where there was more flax grown than there is in any other parish in Ireland. I conceived that to be my duty first as a Minister to this House; and, as a member of Dáil Éireann representing County Monaghan, secondly to go to Monaghan and to pick that district where more flax was grown than in any other district in that county or in any other part of Ireland, and there to render an account of all I had said and done. I want to return to that now. During the war the flax of this country was purchased by the British Board of Trade. In 1932 the flax acreage of this country was about 400 acres—400 acres. Then the wiseacres had a brainwave and they decided to revive flax. They worked the flax acreage up to a couple of thousand acres in 1939. In that year the British Government approached the Irish Government and explained that linen was badly wanted to cover aeroplane wings, because it was discovered that the only fabric which would prevent an anti-aircraft shell fragment which penetrated the metal wing of an aeroplane leaving a jagged edge on the metal wing where the fragment emerged after striking it was linen. If that jagged edge was left a rush of wind would tend to tear the whole wing to pieces and destroy the aircraft. But if you glue linen to the metal fabric it prevents the formation of that ragged edge and there is no wind break left after the piece of shell passes through the wing to tear the wing to pieces. I think, with perfect propriety and neighbourly solicitude for a decent people on the whole—daft and all as they sometimes are—the Irish Government told the British Government they would be glad to do what they could to help provide the linen necessary to furnish forth the wings of the Royal Air Force.

In pursuance of that undertaking, the British Government provided a very substantial sum of money which our Government distributed by way of grants to the flax mills, to increase the number of scutching mills, to provide retting dams and facilities of one kind or another. By the provision of these facilities, they raised the acreage of flax to some 30,000 acres. So long as the Government were dealing with the British Board of Trade no difficulties arose. The British Board of Trade negotiated the price every year and that price ruled for all. We appointed our examiners, they appointed theirs and at every flax market the representative of the British Board of Trade and our inspector were present. Every parcel of flax offered was inspected, the grade to which the flax belonged was agreed between them and the farmer was paid on that basis.

In 1948 we were informed that, after the season's crop was purchased, the Board of Trade was letting the matter go back to the North of Ireland spinners and that they in future would negotiate the purchase of our flax. Shortly afterwards a group of respectable and venerable gentlemen called at my office and announced blandly that they had carefully considered the costings and they made some laughable offer. We had a very cordial conversation. I do not think there were any hard feelings on either side and I do not think that they meant that there should be.

They were very avuncular, very Oxford-accent, and so forth, but I begged them to come down to a realisation that we were all from Ireland, that they need not be embarrassed about revealing that fact, that I was not in the least impressed by the paternal declaration that they were prepared to bestow certain favours on us and that we wanted them to understand that if they were prepared to pay a fair price, if it was a convenience to them to have flax grown here, it would be a pleasure to us to help to provide the raw material of an Irish industry. They expressed appreciation of that attitude and said that we would hear from them again.

I had observed during the year, in regard to a variety of trade agreements that had been made between this country and other countries, and by other countries with other countries that this practice had arisen: Say that Greece wanted to buy candles from two countries, one of which was a friendly country and the other a country which they thought was going to be tough. She would pay the friendly country 1/- a lb. for the candles and then tell them on the bye: "We will slip you 3d. per lb. on the quiet; we are going to negotiate with Y country and we want to be able to say to Y country that we bought these candles from you for 1/- per lb., because if Y gets to know that we paid you 1/3 they will make us pay 1/4, but if we can say to them that you sold us your candles at 1/- a lb. we might be able to get their candles at 1/1."

That has happened time and time again. The fertiliser manufacturers — not our own but the continental manufacturers — have made agreements which they have produced showing the more than ample price they have got from another country but well knowing that, in some cases by a family arrangement, the bulk of the payments have been passed back to a certain gentleman's daughter-in-law. Of course the convention is that you do not refer to it. He knows that you know and you know that he knows that you know. Certainly I had this experience in mind when my friends from the North blandly informed me that on one and the same day they proposed that the price payable for flax on one side of the road—in County Monaghan and in County Donegal— was to be reduced by 2/6 a stone, while on the other side of the road—in Tyrone, Fermanagh and Derry—it was to be raised by 7/-. The explanation offered was that the spinners were offering the same price to all producers but that the Northern Government, to the amazement of everybody, had stepped into the breach and said: "We will give a bonus of 7/- to our own producers." Not only that, but for the first time the spinners of Northern Ireland said: "We shall take only 2,000 tons from you." Observe the principle of limitation because if we once admitted that we would undertake to grow a limited amount for Northern Ireland, what should we do next year if they said: "We shall only take 1,000 tons this year"? If we protested then they would then say: "Last year you did not complain when we told you that we would not take more than 2,000 tons We do not want it and we shall take only 1,000 tons this year." The following year probably it will be reduced to 500 tons. In fact our people would become poor mendicants collecting crumbs from the surplus table of the Northern Government. Observe this, however, that, in order to preserve perfect equality, the Northern Ireland spinners said they would take only a limited acreage from their own people. They did not add that the Northern Ireland Government had given a contemporaneous guarantee that, if there was any surplus grown in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Government would buy it.

Would Deputies consider this for a moment: If the Government of Northern Ireland was going to spend a 7/- surplus bounty on flax, if the Government of Northern Ireland was going to buy itself an undetermined acreage of flax, what do you think the Government of Northern Ireland was going to do with the flax? Stuff a pillow with it? Thatch Stormont with it? Did it ever occur to some of the innocents of this House that they were going to sell it back to the spinners and, just as the daughter-in-law passed back the surplus price that had been paid, so then Stormont would proceed to sell back to the Northern Ireland spinners the flax that they, as a Government, had bought. How was I going to find out what price the spinners were required to pay? Would not that be a very convenient vehicle to collect back from the spinners the 7/- a stone bounty paid on a limited acreage? By the operation of that little device, our people are to grow flax at 32/- while the aristocrats of Northern Ireland are to get 40/-. Our people were to be exposed to an affront when they said: "Not that we are leaving the price of flax at what it was, but, to show that we know that you should be hewers of wood and drawers of water and servants of the aristocrats of Belfast, you are to come down 2/6 and like it, while the really superior person cannot be asked to do this heavy labour for less than 40/-."

Am I deserving of the censure of this House when I said to them: "I do not want to quarrel with anybody; I do not want unduly to pry into your business and if the price payable to our people is left at the same figure as it was last year that is good enough for me?" I was told to take, on behalf of our people, 2/6 a stone less and like it on the same day as the price was raised 7/- in Northern Ireland. I told them to go and take a running jump at themselves. I would do it again. I would answer the man in Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan, West Cork or anywhere else that I believe that 99 per cent. of our people are not prepared for any fee to hold themselves out as hewers of wood and drawers of water for the Northern Ireland spinners. We do not want to stand on our dignity; we do not wish to pretend that we are superior to any other group of Irishmen in this country, but I am damned if I will ever be messenger to tell the spinners of Belfast that it is good enough to reduce the price payable for flax to our people on the same day as it is raised by 7/6 per stone for the growers of Northern Ireland.

One of the principal flax-growing centres in this country is West Cork. A writ is going to be moved for a by-election in West Cork and I hope to have the opportunity of going down to West Cork in the course of that election, and the people of West Cork are not afraid to speak their mind. Whoever goes down will get a very convenient opportunity of discovering whether the people who grew that flax and had profit out of that crop, some of the most skilled cultivators of that crop—heavier weights of flax per acre were raised in West Cork than ever were raised in any other county in Ireland——

Mr. Blaney

Can the Minister tell us what the yield was in West Cork which he talks about?

I do not want to toot anyone's horn unduly, but if the Deputy will address that inquiry to Senator Tim Joe Donovan, who has the statistics of the specific yield per acre for West Cork more precisely than I can offer the Deputy now, I think he will hear news that will astonish him. Come now, I will be bound by the Deputy's own decision. If there has not been, to the Deputy's satisfaction, a higher yield of flax gathered on one acre of West Cork land than ever was gathered in any other county in Ireland the Deputy shall name the charity to which I pay a suitable forfeit prescribed by him. Does he undertake to do the same if he is mistaken?

Mr. Blaney

I will do that.

That is the story of the flax negotiations. Some people consider it desirable to reopen negotiations with these spinners for the purpose of demonstrating that the Irish Minister for Agriculture has acted capriciously and unreasonably. If that were true, those spinners would at least have given as fair an offer to the individuals who went to do business with them as, they alleged, I had capriciously rejected. But they did not. These generous, just and offhand spinners offered the people who went to them, hat in hand, 4/- a stone less than they offered to me. There is something mean and contemptible in the person who seeks to profit himself by a couple of shillings a stone at the expense of the poor—because most of the people who grew flax were poor people—because he thinks he has them in a tight corner. That was a mean and vicious thing to do, but it gives members of this House some indication of the temper and the temperament of the gentlemen with whom I had to deal. I do not think it is a good thing, when people act meanly, contemptuously and insultingly, to bow your head and, because the fee is tempting, to kiss the rod. If the people want a Minister who will do that, or who can do it, they must get someone else than me, because my reaction to that is to open the door and so show it to those who have the impudence to attempt to adopt that attitude to our people as to ensure that they will never seek to find that door again. If the desideratum is to have a Minister who, having made a door mat of himself, lays the people for whom he speaks upon the ground before his visitors to wipe their feet on too, they must get somebody else than me. I will not do it. I do not believe our people want me to do it. I am glad to think that the resources of this nation are sufficient to make ample provision in profitable occupation for every flax-grower of this country, if they care to permit their own Department of Agriculture to share the labour of turning over from the flax the Northern Ireland spinners refuse to buy except as a compliment, to an alternative product which they are just as competent to produce and the purchasers of which are prepared to deal in on terms of equality, equity and good manners.

I want to say a word about oats. Last spring 12 months, I urged all our people to sow all the oats and potatoes they could. Nota bene, if I may say so to my colleagues, it was not to grow all the grass and weeds that they could, it was to increase the volume of production, by producing cereal and root crops, with the attendant assurance: “No matter how much you grow, there will be available for it a limitless and remunerative market.” There is no doubt I gave that advice, desiring it to be taken by every farmer in Ireland. In the autumn, before the harvest began, I had occasion to speak at the agricultural show in Waterford and before there were 50 acres of oats cut in this country. I said: “Now, we are going to have a great harvest of oats and I foresee, when the harvest is gathered, a strenuous effort will be made by mischievous persons in this country, to create panic conditions and if they succeed in persuading farmers to throw their produce on the market at the same time, nothing I can do or anybody else can do is going to avoid a serious loss to the small man and possibly speculative profits for the big man. Therefore, keep your oats and if you have not got storage for threshed oats, do not thresh in the autumn at all. If you have not got haggards, then build stacks and thatch them in your stack-yard or in your field.”

Every Deputy sitting in this House who knows anything about agriculture knows that, 30 years ago, it was a common thing in this country to see 20 such stacks in a farmer's field. At this hour, over a great part of agricultural England, you will see the exquisite picture of 60 or 70 well-made stacks of corn, carefully built and carefully thatched, in order to avoid threshing in the autumn and to keep the grain in perfect condition for the spring. In Donegal, almost all the seed oats that come out of Donegal are deliberately kept in stacks, in the knowledge that for seed and for the preservation of colour in the grain stacking is the safest and best method of storing. Of course, there is a certain amount of loss from rats and shedding and all the ordinary hazards of agriculture. And, of course, when you get a few townies to blather about feeding the rats and poor Deputy Davern also blathering about feeding the rats, you would think the poor creatures never saw a rat in their lives. Most farmers in this country have not got an appalling horror of a few stone of oats being eaten by rats. We all wish that would not happen, but we know by long experience that if a man is going to be a farmer he will have to deal with that, just the same as if you keep greyhounds you have to battle with the fleas. We would all rather that there were no fleas, but we do not say we should slaughter all the greyhounds for fear they would get fleas. These are the ordinary difficulties every farmer has to contend with and overcome in the ordinary course. Sometimes he makes up his mind that it is worth while contending with that nuisance, for a greater gain. On another occasion, he will make up his mind to sell out and clear the haggard, rather than contend with the annoyance of vermin and so forth. It is an everyday problem of every farmer all over the country. Farmers are continually resolving on this every 12 months.

What happened? Very quickly, the band began to play, just as I anticipated. I knew from the reports that were coming in to me that there was some widespread whispering campaign organised in the country and that people who never sold oats ordinarily were arriving at the oat dealers and markets in the country with a couple of bags of grain, which is not an ordinary thing. About 90 per cent. of the oats grown in the country never comes upon the commercial grain market at all. There is a good deal of selling between farmer and neighbour at the local market or local fair, and a great deal of the stuff is consumed at the farmer's place, while only 10 per cent. comes on the market. Now, from 5 to 7½ per cent. extra coming on the commercial market, particularly if it all comes at once, can create a considerable volume of dislocation. My inspectors began to report to me that grain merchants were discovering fellows coming in with four bags or two bags of oats on their carts, whereas heretofore their clients would be the men who would have two tons, six tons or eight tons of oats. It did not take me long to discover that the tulips were on the road. Most of them are old dogs for the hard road and they had all been told: "Now, on your life, don't let on, but whisper about as you go along; get as many as you can to dispose of oats, pile it out, every cwt. counts; get everybody to do it."

Then Tetrazzini, Deputy Davern, could not conceal his light under a bushel any longer. He was singing to such effect in North Tipperary that nothing would hold him but leap on a rock to sing for the edification of all— or so it appeared to him. Then there was Charles Stewart Parnell O'Donnell, who said that poor innocent Deputy Davern never spoke in public, but some fellow came into the room where the poor man was talking, never dreaming he was going to be reported, and spilt the beans on him. Charles Stewart Parnell O'Donnell is the honorary correspondence secretary of the Gortnahoe Cumann of Fianna Fáil. Here is what Gortnahoe was told to do by the prima donna:—

"Band yourselves together. You farmers can save something from the wreckage. Demand a better price for your milk; carry on your tillage; and strive for the Republic. That will keep our young men at home. That is the Republic we want. Do not mind pronouncements made by Ministers that end in a bottle of smoke. Sell your oats now. Sell your potatoes now."

That is what the prima donna said. But he was not the only performer who was about his business.

Will the Minister give the reference?

The Tipperary Star of 18th December, 1948—Gortnahoe Fianna Fáil Cumann. There was another—not a prima donna this time, a third flute, but developing volume with every promise of becoming, in God's good time, a full bassoon—who gave out at Killygordon ex post facto. Deputy Blaney, fresh from the hustings, felt that he had done his job so well that it would be a shame to hide his light permanently under a bushel. He did not blow the gaff, but he went around Donegal as quiet as a mouse, whispering all the time, but so gently that he began to get mad that people did not realise how well he whispered and how much be contributed to creating the crisis and the difficulty that undoubtedly he most admirably succeeded in creating amongst his own neighbours in Inishowen and East Donegal. He whispered them into bringing in all their oats at the same time and he whispered the oatmeal millers into plucking up courage to form a ring against me.

Mr. Blaney

I resent the statement that I had anything to do with a ring of millers. Would the Minister repeat that allegation about the milers?

Yes. The Deputy whispered——

Mr. Blaney

Anything I had to say about oats, either before or after the election, was not whispered.

The Deputy whispered to such good effect that he precipitated difficulties in East Donegal which resulted in heavy losses to his own neighbours and which emboldened the oatmeal millers of Donegal to form a ring against me in which they told me that they would not reduce the price of oatmeal.

Mr. Blaney

Will the Minister allow me——

I will not allow the Deputy.

Mr. Blaney

The majority of the millers are his supporters.

I want to recite for the Dáil the gentle toot of the flute.

Is the Deputy not entitled to intervene?

He is not and you are not.

A Deputy is not entitled to intervene, unless the speaker gives way, except on a point of order.

Deputy Blaney was talking at Killygordon with all the glory of his senatorial victory about him, and he said:—

"There is also the question of a market for oats. We had the promises almost a year ago of members of the Coalition Government of a good market and a good price. That promise was implemented before the by-election began for a short time of buying oats at 2/- a stone. I warned, during the by-election campaign, anyone who had oats to sell to sell them before polling day or they would not get them sold at all."

Mr. Blaney

Is that not true?

That appears in the Derry Journal of 4th March, 1949—not at Gortnahoe this time but at Killygordon Fianna Fáil Cumann. Picture the Deputy twittering through East Donegal: “Bring out your oats. We know you have got them. Dump them on the market now and the more you lose the better you will be.” It is not a kind thing to do to small farmers to pile their modest substance on a bonfire for one's own electoral advantage, and it is a mean thing to do it to one's own neighbours.

Mr. Blaney

The Minister is being very low at the moment.

No. I know that area of Donegal—every yard of it—and I know the people who live in it, and I say it was a mean thing for the Deputy to go amongst his own neighbours and to use their modest stock to build an electoral bonfire for his own advantage. We were trying the best we could to ensure that every grain of these oats would be used to the profit of the men who grew them. I do not deny that in some measure Deputy Blaney succeeded in frustrating the best effort I could make, including the removal of 1,000 tons of oats from that area to Sligo to make room for any that remained on the farmers' hands.

Mr. Blaney

Does the Minister think that 1,000 tons would make such a difference at the time?

But a combination of the Deputy's mischief and of the unscrupulous attempt of the Donegal oatmeal millers to hold this country up to ransom——

Mr. Blaney

Some of your own supporters.

——did inflict a certain injury on the people of North-East Donegal.

On a point of order. Is it gentlemanly conduct for a Minister of State——

That is not a point of order.

——to attack the oatmeal millers of Donegal in their absence? If he had anything to say about them, he should say it——

Deputy Burke will sit down.

He is misrepresenting——

Deputy Burke should not try to make a speech under the guise of raising a point of order. That is not a point of order.

Is the Minister the only person allowed to interrupt here without chastisement from the Chair?

Surely that is a reflection on the Chair.

The Chair is doing its duty. Deputy Traynor will sit down also.

I was interrupted 40 times.

What does Deputy Traynor mean by that remark?

Interpret that yourself.

Deputy Traynor is making a charge upon the Chair. There is a method by which it can be done.

I again assert that the Minister, who has refused to allow other people to intervene in the debate, has been known to interrupt one of our Deputies no less than 113 times.

The Deputy should have called the notice of the Chair to that.

The Chair should have taken notice itself.

Is Deputy Traynor making a charge against the Chair?

I am suggesting that you interpret that yourself.

Deputy Traynor will either withdraw that charge or leave the House.

I have made no charge against the Chair.

There is an implied charge against the Chair.

What charge? I have made no charge against the Chair.

Deputy Traynor will sit down. Deputy Traynor has made an implied charge against the Chair, that the Chair is not doing its duty. Unless he withdraws the charge, he will leave the House.

I made no charge against the Chair.

Unless Deputy Traynor withdraws that charge, he will leave the House.

I will leave the House, but I will not withdraw something I have not said.

Deputy Traynor will leave the House.

Deputy Traynor withdrew.

I think it right to warn my colleagues at this stage that members of the Opposition, smarting under their exposure, are, if my judgment is correct, going to make a studied effort to precipitate disorder in the House this morning. They have done it once already during this debate.

Is the Minister addressing the House or is he addressing his back-benchers? Is the Minister in order in turning his back on the Chair? I cannot hear what he is saying.

No speaker is entitled to turn his back on the Chair.

We are being treated to an exhibition from a game peacock.

As you observe, Sir, a studied and resolute attempt is being made to bring the House into contempt——

Misrepresentation all over the place.

——and, if they could, to prevent the exposure which I am about to make of their contemptible activities in the time I have waited 31 hours to get. I have listened to them for 31 hours pouring forth upon me all the filth and falsehood that they could manufacture. I have spoken here for less than an hour but I want to warn the House, and the Deputies opposite particularly, that by the time I have finished with them, there will not be a rag upon them to conceal the low-grade fraud for which they have been responsible in the public life of this country for the past 12 months and all the material for that purpose is on the desk before me and all of it is going to be used, whether they like it or not.

Now, every cwt. of oats that was grown in this country can be, and should be, profitably used in the production of live stock and live-stock products. I commented hardly just now on the oatmeal millers of Donegal. I want to tell the House and the public the reason why I made that comment. Right in the most critical moment of the surplus situation in Donegal, this House authorised the Government to send a gift to the relief of destitute people in the Holy Land, and the International Red Cross authorities responsible for the administration of that relief told us that the most acceptable form it could take would be in the form of oats prepared for human consumption. I went to the Government at once and said: "The correct procedure for getting this oatmeal would be to put it out to tender and to take the lowest tender. But there is an exceptional condition of difficulty in Donegal and I am asking the Government's express authority to depart from the tender procedure and to put this out to tender restricted to Donegal." Five hundred tons of oat flakes would have taken 1,000 tons of oats. The Government authorised me to adopt that procedure and I sent an officer of my Department up to Donegal and he summoned the Donegal oat millers, told them that they could bid now for 500 tons of oat flakes and that this would help greatly to ease the oat position in Donegal. Do you know what they did? They held a meeting and they entered into an agreement that they would not compete with one another.

Mr. Blaney

Were all the millers included?

Keep quiet.

Yes, and they held a meeting in Derry City. They entered into an agreement that they would not quote against one another and that the only basis on which they would supply it was that we would furnish their organisation with an order at a grossly excessive price which they would divide up amongst themselves. I told them, as I told the Belfast spinners: "Go and take a running jump at yourself. Neither you nor anybody else will hold up the Government of this country".

Mr. Blaney

I understand there was one miller up there——

It was not one miller; it was a meeting of the Oatmeal Millers' Association, held in Derry.

Mr. Blaney

All of them?

Deputy Blaney's friends in Moville were there.

I told them that they would not hold up the Government and that nobody else would. Not one single pound of that oatmeal was made or manufactured in Donegal. I broke the ring. In another part of the country I got a miller to mill it at £2 10s. 0d. a ton less than the extortionate demand of the Donegal millers and, to my great regret, not a single ounce of that oats came out of Donegal, and I was forced, with public money, to transport 1,000 tons of oats down to Sligo in order to help in relieving the situation in Donegal when not one penny of public money would have been spent to that end if these millers had any sense of public responsibility at all. Did Deputy Blaney, did anyone in the Fianna Fáil organisation, lend their influence to bring those millers to a sense of their duty? They did not.

Mr. Blaney

Were they asked to do it?

Did the Deputy know what was going on?

Mr. Blaney

It was your responsibility.

Did the Deputy know that on what I sell I keep the profit.

Mr. Blaney

That is your responsibility. The Minister did not answer me and the Minister will not get an answer from me.

How very appropriately he is described as the third flute in a rusty band. Deputies know the price oats are to-day. I am going to make a bet. Somebody is going to sell some of those oats at a profit. If I can I will, but if I do the Government is going to keep the profits. Some of our friends down Dungarvan way are drawing the oats out that they put in. Remember, that on what I sell I keep the profit.

I want to illuminate some of the illuminati who can see no difference between the policy of this Government and their policy when they were in office. I am going to begin with our relative judgment of the proper relationship that should exist between a Minister and the people. I first introduced an Estimate for the Department of Agriculture in this House in July, 1948, and at column 2611, Volume 111 of the Official Report I spoke as follows:—

"I want to reiterate that my Department holds itself gladly at the service of any citizen of this State that seeks help. I and every official of my Department have the old-fashioned view that there is no higher dignity that a citizen of Ireland could covet than to be known as the servant of the Irish people. We do not aspire to be known as masters; we do not wish to act as masters; we do not ever wish to think of ourselves as being masters. We wish to deal with the people always as their servants, and we would like them to remember that if they have servants they are entitled to expect dutiful servants who will carry out the laws their Parliament makes without respect to persons or groups. That will be done."

Now I would like to give the House a refreshing reminder of my distinguished predecessor's view on these matters. I quote — column 2239, Volume 106, of the Official Report— from a speech by Deputy Smith, Minister for Agriculture as he was then. He drew a deep breath—he was speaking to the farmers—and said:—

"....I shall tell you that I had them safely tucked in the back of my mind when I was talking in Navan and if it had not been for the kind of season that Providence decided to send us, I would not have had them tucked in the back of my mind; I would have had inspectors tucked after them, and I would have tucked them out into fresh land, and I would compel them to break fresh land, and if they did not do it I would tuck in the tractors through the ditches and through the gates and tuck out the land for them....

If the Lord Almighty provides us with good weather that will enable us to make a start, and if there should be a necessity next season to be as rigid as heretofore—and there may be—I am going to tell them here and now that I will recruit the full of ten fields of inspectors, and I will spend plenty of money in paying them travelling expenses and everything else, and I will hire all the tractors and machinery I can get and I will go down and pick every one of the `cods' out and I will say: `Take down that piece of wire and put it around the other corner, and just break it up until we see will you get more than four barrels or four and a half barrels,' no matter what their lamentations are about wheat growing. We hear when they come to the Minister that the community should not ask them to do this job until they get a fair deal for it. Now, the price may be fair or not, but, in so far as expressions of opinion as to the price come from that quarter— and they come from that quarter— they come from owners of land who when they are told to till pick out the most inferior piece of land and try to comply with their quota.

When I do that," continued Deputy Smith, "you can call me a thug or a clod or a driver, whatever you like, I do not care. If I am here in the position of Minister, so sure as I have the Almighty to face some day or other, I will end this nonsense. That is my attitude to this question of production. I have heard more of this word `production' since this debate started than I have heard for as long as I can remember. My back is nearly broken listening to it. Maybe I should not say much more. We were talking earlier in the debate about Guinness, but Guinness is never about at the right time."

The Minister was looking back, when he was then speaking, to a tour de force for which he was responsible at Navan. He had bestowed the pleasure of his company on Deputy O'Reilly, the chairman of the Meath County Committee of Agriculture, and his colleagues who assembled to meet him—and, by Jove, they walked into a tornado. He was no dutiful servant come to hear his employers' view but the very prototype of Czar Peter the Great arriving to trample on his presumptuous serfs.

"Through my officials, and through all the legal channels, I will save no expense to ensure that these people are dealt with. Any landowner who can find it in his heart to refuse what he has been asked to do in present circumstances, is a rotten, bad citizen and is not entitled to bring down the standard of the farming community by calling himself a farmer. I will certainly follow him up to the last lap in order to punish him for his failure."

Now, mind you, I am reading the then Minister's remarks, which were made in the presence of the never-failing courtesy of the chairman of the Meath County Committee of Agriculture, not in any record prejudiced against him but from the kept newspaper of his own Party and it would indeed be strange if the words he used on that occasion were not tempered by the affections of the kept creature who recorded them—the Irish Press of the 20th February, 1947. I went to Navan recently. I think I may avail of this opportunity to say that I had occasion to address an inquiry about a proposal in regard to the provision of a number of instructors in the county.

I should like to take this occasion to say that the Meath County Committee of Agriculture found itself at entire variance with my view. But that, in communicating that fact to me, they employed the methods of courtesy and decency that I would have expected of the members who constitute that body. I am glad of the opportunity of saying to them that I value their opinion and that, though it is at variance with mine, it is of material help to me to hear the direct opposite view so courteously and carefully expressed and I thank them for the trouble they took, because they obviously did take trouble, carefully to consider the matter, and carefully to record their considered judgment upon it.

Mr. M. O'Reilly took the Chair.

I have had the pleasure of meeting that body, and I went very largely to Navan to make this simple proposition. It never dawned on me that there would ever be any substantial opposition to this view—that we in this country fought the land war so that the man who lived on the land and worked the land and got his living out of the land should own the land, and, at immense sacrifice, we put an end to the landlord system and put the land in the hands of the people; but that there was now growing up in County Meath on some of the finest land in Ireland a system whereby persons of property came and invested their savings in large tracts of very fertile land, lived in state upon them and set the land on the 11-months' system, setting themselves up as minor 20th century landlords with the old traditional evil consequences that, inasmuch as the land did not belong to the man who worked it, he had no concern to improve it and that some of the most productive and valuable land in this country was being used by a method under which it did not produce half of what it could be made to produce but had left it poorer and less capable of producing at the end of every 11 months' let. The tenant who was going to leave the land at the end of 11 months was not going to put manure on it. The landlord who was going to set the land to whoever he could get to operate it did not care two fiddle-dedees. So long as he got £5 or £10 per acre, what did he care what was done with the land? He had between £3,000 and £4,000 on which to live where he liked and have a good time. He spent the hunting season in Meath and went to Dublin or Paris, or somewhere else, and lived comfortably out of the proceeds of the land.

I do not want to pry into where other people live, as Deputy Aiken was blathering about yesterday. I was in Paris recently and I enjoyed myself very much. I never saw Paris looking lovelier. There is no crime in having a bit of a holiday. I did not go down to Navan and say to these people: "We want to drive you out of the country." We did not want to harass or insult them in any way. All I said to those who have large holdings of land was: "If you do not want to work the land yourself, or if you are not competent to work it, there are plenty of highly-trained graduates in agricultural science in this country who will gladly accept the position of farm manager. You can tell them that you want mixed farming or grain growing or whatever particular branch of agriculture you like operated on your holding and they will carry that policy into effect on your demesne, you providing the capital, with the result that every year your land will be a bit improved, every year your land will make its contribution to the national wealth and, above all, every year you, as the owner of the land, will discharge the clear duty that devolves upon you that you will provide decent employment for your neighbours, the agricultural workers, who are entitled to expect employment on the land in the vicinity of which they live."

Was there anything revolutionary in that? Then I said: "If there are people living here in County Meath who want to buy 800 or 1,000 acres of the best land in Ireland, who want to set it on the 11 months' system and say to their neighbour: `You and your children can go on outdoor relief, I am going to Paris and I am not going to ask anybody to work my land and I do not care where you go, it is none of my business', we as a Government representing a Christian society will not tolerate that. We do not object to your owning the land, but we assert that, while the ownership of land connotes privileges, it also carries with it grave duties and, if these duties are not discharged, we do not want to confiscate it or anything else, but we must take steps to see that the land passes into the ownership either of those who are going to work it themselves or to those who will so use it as to ensure that the proper duties appertaining to land ownership are discharged, in the social sphere, to your neighbours the agricultural workers in the vicinity of the land and, in the economic sphere, by the contribution that that land makes to the national income as distinguished from the income of the man who owns the land."

What was my astonishment, however, to see the members of the Fianna Fáil Party ablaze with indignation at my attack on the 11 months' system in Meath. Then there suddenly came back to me the echo of something I remember saying in this House 15 years ago. These men do not understand the spirit of the Land League. When you talk to the members of the Fianna Fáil Party of fixity of tenure, they do not know what it means; it rings no bell. When you talk to them of free sale and fair rent——

On a point of order. Is the Minister addressing the House or a meeting of his Party?

There are very few Fianna Fáil Deputies here.

Poor Deputy Butler could not be expected to understand.

You are disgracing the House by giving a musical-hall performance.

Deputy Butler is an insolent and ignorant man and he should remain silent when he is privileged to sit here. He has not opened his "beak" during the last five days.

If the Minister would address the Chair, it would prevent a lot of these interruptions.

I hope I am addressing the Chair. I suddenly discovered that the members of this Party styled Fianna Fáil had no understanding of the land or what it meant.

How do you assert that?

They do not know what these things mean.

How do you assert that? Are you going——

Acting-Chairman

Order, order.

This gentleman here, instead of answering the points made during the last few days as a Minister of State, is indulging in misrepresentation.

Acting-Chairman

Order, order. The Minister must be allowed to proceed.

He cannot answer the constructive criticism put up.

Remember my warning. I believe that the intention of this Party, as the rags they gathered about themselves to conceal their contemptible conduct are thrown away and they are revealed, is to try to break up the proceedings of this House.

You are trying to do it.

You are doing it deliberately.

I intend to strip every rag off them and expose them naked to the public gaze. It is going to be a loathsome spectacle but a chastening one.

You will expose yourself.

I never realised fully, as I heard them baying like a pack of hounds for the ruin and destruction of the principles of fixity of tenure, how ignorant they were of the meaning of that word. Fixity of tenure for them meant "I shall retain my holding but," with the traditional grabber's whine, "give me my neighbour's land". That is what Fianna Fáil means by fixity of tenure.

Acting-Chairman (Mr. O'Reilly)

There is nothing about fixity of tenure in this Estimate.

May I respectfully submit, Sir, that certainly for seven hours in the last five days I have listened to comments on the speech I made at the Navan County Committee of Agriculture demurring to the 11 months' system as being an attack by me on the sacred right of farmers to own their land in Ireland? That means fixity of tenure to me. But fixity of tenure to me was not fixity of tenure to them.

Acting-Chairman (Mr. O'Reilly)

Unfortunately that is not in this Estimate. If we allow that to continue we will cover everything.

Is it conceivably possible that seven weary hours of debate on this subject are now to be silenced?

Acting-Chairman (Mr. O'Reilly)

It is.

Very well. Not a word. That is the ruling. It will be observed in the letter, and I mean in the letter.

Somebody asked me in the course of this discussion what we proposed to do to help the Gaeltacht as an alternative to the tomato scheme. One scheme which I think ought to help is that we have asked the residents of the Fior-Ghaeltacht to collaborate with us in the production of eggs. Under a scheme operated in the Galway Gaeltacht last autumn, which we hope to reproduce in the Donegal and Kerry Gaeltacht this autumn, 6,500 dozen day-old chicks were purchased and are being kept for fowl and production of eggs in the future. One of the conditions of this scheme was that old and uneconomic hens should be disposed of and the accommodation filled with hens of good quality which would pay for their keep. The scheme has every promise of success, and we propose to extend it.

I am bound, before concluding on this Estimate, to deal with a question of faith. I think it is right to say here and now that there is no purpose connected with agricultural development or the expansion of agricultural production, the money to finance which I have asked the Minister for Finance for, that he has not recommended favourably to the Government.

I cannot honestly say before this House that there has been withheld from me at his instance, or by the Government in any circumstances, any request for financial aid that I certified to the Government as necessary for the development of the agricultural industry since I took over office. So that, if any sprightly member of the Opposition is concerned to dwell upon the absence of financial provision for any sub-head in my Vote, I want to reassure him that if the provision is not there it is because I did not ask to have it put there. I did not ask to have any money provided under the sub-head referred to by Deputy Allen's fertiliser subsidies because I knew that money was paid to subsidise not the farmers but the fertiliser manufacturers and I have not the slightest desire to subsidise those gentlemen. My exertions were to screw out of their illegitimate profits a reduction in the price of fertilisers for the farmers in this country. I did it and I will do it again. Every requisition that was made upon the Minister for Finance and the Government for financial facilities to increase the production of the agricultural industry or to serve the legitimate interests of the farmers has been forthcoming since I took office, and the absence of any provision is because I, representing the farmers' interests, certified to the Government that it might not properly be made.

About milk. The case is strenuously made by Deputy Dr. Ryan, Deputy Patrick Smith, Deputy O Briain and one or two others that either £750,000 or £1,500,000 should be added to the subsidy which is already being paid on butter. I do not believe that any one of those Deputies honestly believes in the justice of that representation.

Deputy Cogan very frequently speaks of costings and says: "Let the decision be ruled by what costings reveal. If the price is too low as the result of the verdict of a costings survey let the price be raised. If the price is too high in the light of the costings survey let the price come down." I have costings here for milk produced for sale as liquid milk in the City of Cork.

Are they official costings?

They were done by one of the best authorities in Ireland at the request of the producers of milk. I did not enter into their preparation directly or indirectly. So high is the esteem in which the preparer of the costings is held, and rightly held, that I do not think it would make the slightest difference at whose commission he would be charged with the responsibility of preparing costings, he would prepare exactly the same costings whoever put him in the job.

For what year?

The costings that lie on my desk before me have an intimate relevance to the year 1949. I am grateful to Providence that the parties who furnished me with these costings imposed on me the obligation not to communicate their contents to any living man.

Bogus costings, I suppose?

I think I can get permission to show them to Deputy Cogan. I will be glad to do that. I will ask the leave of the two bodies who are responsible for the preparation of these costings to show them to Deputy Cogan, and I think he will thereafter share my circumspection about the preparation of costings and the basing of all prices and profit-margins on the figures thereby revealed. Now, when the supply of a commodity, the quantity of production of which is controlled by the law of supply and demand, begins steeply to rise, and that rise continues with growing velocity, most economists would tell the uninitiated that that is indicative of the presumption that the production of that commodity yields a satisfactory profit to the producer.

It certainly does not. We had overproduction in the years of the depression.

The Deputy, I am afraid, has not grasped what I said, that the rate of production begins to grow, and goes on growing with an ever increasing velocity, and, so long as that growth continues, the indication is that it has attractions for the producer. Of course, a situation may arise in which the velocity of growth slows down. That is a danger signal because the next stage is that expansion stops. There is collapse and rapid contraction, but I am talking of the condition in which there is expansion and growing velocity of expansion.

Milk delivered to the creameries in the first five months of 1947, 14,789,000 gallons. Yes, the Deputy should write down the figures.

I am surprised there were so much.

The Deputy is going to faint before I am finished. Milk delivered to the creameries for the first five months of 1948, 19,551,000 gallons. That is an increase of 5,000,000 gallons on the year before. Milk delivered to the creameries in the first five months of 1949, 27,753,000 gallons, an increase of 8,000,000 gallons on 1948.

Do you think that the farmers ought to be penalised for increasing production?

No. I am maintaining the price of milk and it is an awful mistake, when the camel is carrying his optimum load, to direct his attention to the fact that the synonym for optimum is maximum by putting on one more straw.

The Minister should get permission to publish these figures.

If the Deputy knew how often I have tried——

I have to pay 3/8 a gallon for milk in Dublin, which is about four times the cost of production.

And the farmers are getting 1/2.

Deputy Davern must be a very much more stupid man than we had thought him to be.

I would not like to be as stupid as the Minister.

There are two prices. One relates to milk sold for liquid consumption and the other relates to milk sold to the creameries. If Deputy Davern, at his age, has not yet woken up to that fact, then he must bustle and wake up now. The price for milk produced for home consumption at present is approximately 2/1 per gallon, taking the average for the whole year. The price fluctuates at two-monthly intervals, but, taking the average the whole year round, it is about 2/1 per gallon. I would not be so severe on Deputy Davern if it were not for the fact that he knows that and is trying to pretend that he does not in the hope that he will fool someone.

The Pied Piper of Hamelin.

I want now to run shortly through some of the specific points that were raised by Deputies. Deputy Commons inquired about drainage. I think he will agree with me that, on the whole, it is better to leave the full discussion of that over until we come to deal with the land rehabilitation project, which I hope to bring before the House within the next week or ten days, and which, I am happy to say, I hope, by the phenomenal exertions of the officers of my Department, to be able to initiate in part, not on the 1st July but on the 1st June.

The project consists of two alternatives, one in which the farmer elects to do the work and gets a grant; the other in which the farmer asks the Department to do it in consideration of his paying so much per acre either in cash or as a charge upon his land annuity. I cannot put that latter part of the project into operation unless and until I have authority from Oireachtas Éireann, and I must bring a Bill before the House to seek that authority; but, under the general powers of the Minister for Agriculture, I can operate that part of the project where the farmer does the work and receives a grant in consideration of the work done.

I am going, I hope, to put that part of the project into operation on 1st June. I am going to bring a Bill before Oireachtas Éireann, and if Oireachtas Éireann approves, and approves expeditiously, I can put the second portion of the scheme in operation. It affords me some satisfaction to be able to inform the House that, having undertaken to launch the project on the 1st July, we have so managed, by efforts which I think the project was entitled to expect on the part of those who esteem it an honour to be charged with the responsibility of operating it, that we will be able to launch it one month ahead of time.

Have you received any applications for this scheme yet?

Tell the widow to apply.

If and when she does, we will receive her with garlands and a red carpet. I take it her name is Mrs. 'arris. Deputy Commons inquired about the type of cattle. We have heard a good deal of contention about the best type of cattle. This is a free country and any farmer can keep any type of cattle he likes. There is no obligation and he has not to apologise to anybody or explain the reason why.

Why should not a Deputy be entitled to ask the Minister a perfectly fair question? Why should he not be entitled to a courteous answer when he asks whether the Minister has got applications?

How much courtesy have I received?

More than you deserve.

Deputy Commons suggested that the Minister ought to communicate to the House what the Government's decision is as to the types of cattle best suited to the agricultural economy of this country. That is binding on nobody. Anyone who differs can do exactly as he pleases, and when people have freedom and every man can do as he likes they cannot deny the Government of the country the right to make up its mind and submit the fruits of its reflections to the Oireachtas and act accordingly. We may have in mind the dual purpose Shorthorn cow as the best type of animal for this country. Anyone who wants to keep a Friesian, a Guernsey, an Ayrshire or an Alderney, or any other breed is as free as the air and there is no one will point the finger of scorn at him or find fault with him.

I recently met one of the most substantial buyers of cattle for the Argentine and he told me the trend of the Shorthorn breed in Scotland had gone so far in the direction of beef that cows were barely able to feed their own calves; that the Shorthorn breed in England had gone so extremely over to dairying that from the Argentine point of view it was not calves these cows were having at all, but goats. The Argentine, he said, was very deeply concerned with the meat quality of their stock and the time was coming when Ireland would be the only place where they could find types of cattle in which the female animals would give 600 to 800 gallons of milk and in which the bullocks would make what, in their judgment, was the ideal carcase for the beef trade. I dared to suggest that if in their time Scotland had evolved a Scotch beef Shorthorn and Great Britain an English milk Shorthorn, we were entitled to say that we were well on the way towards evolving the third and most useful variety of the Shorthorn breed, the dual purpose Shorthorn. It was good for the small farmer because, whether he had a heifer or a bull calf, he had something he could rear and make a bit of money out of. If I am wrong about that, I am wrong about everything.

You were never right in your life, and you know that.

That is my decision on that, in any case. I would welcome any proposal from any young farmers' club or any co-operative society, any voluntary association of farmers in rural Ireland where the farms are small and no one farm will justify the employment of a tractor, to combine together and buy for their joint user a tractor and other necessary machinery. Every group that makes that attempt may be told by their neighbours: "You will be all fighting in 12 months and it will not work". That is all nonsense. Every plan will not work out, but if we get three out of every ten attempts to encourage the co-operative user of machinery in rural Ireland, and make available to three groups out of every ten the immense amenities which the user of machinery in the everyday work of farms does provide, we will be amply rewarded for the efforts made.

But if these things are to succeed they must come from the voluntary effort of neighbours themselves. I will do all I can to help them everywhere, but I will not go down to form those groups. If I were to form groups amongst neighbours what will be said is that I gathered up my political friends into a group, and every Fianna Fáil supporter will avoid it like a plague. In matters of this kind-parochial co-operation among neighbours—it is of vital consequence that the neighbours themselves should promote it and I should enter into it only in so far as I am looked upon as a public institution.

I spoke of the cost of fertilisers. I think the House knows my mind on the policy of mixed farming and walking crops the land. I am glad Deputy Commons agrees with me that 2/6 a dozen for eggs for two years is better than 3/- until we go bust and 1/5 thereafter. The people who advocate 3/- as long as the money holds out and whatever God may send us thereafter are deriding me for substituting for that 2/6 guaranteed for two years. They remind me of the man who contemptuously refused to drink a bottle of stout every day for a fortnight and said: "Give me a kilderkin here and I will soon drink that." The difference there is that the man has a whale of a time drinking a kilderkin and he is sick for a week afterwards. The whole household—his wife and family, every one of them—has a nice job to put up with him. If he brings home the two dozen of stout and takes a bottle every night he is good company for everybody in the house, he has no headache in the morning and gets on grand. I am in favour of one bottle a day, and if the Opposition are in favour of a kilderkin, so long as they are able to hold it and oblivious until they are ready to drink another one, it is just that we disagree on fundamentals—that is all.

Some of us could drink a kilderkin in an hour.

I admire the prowess of such doughty men, but I cannot construct the agricultural policy of this country on the assumption that the whole nation is equal to that enterprise. Deputy Lahiffe spoke of aphosphorosis and I think I told him all that it is necessary for me to say on that matter. The Deputies on the Opposition Benches seem to take great scandal in the fact that since I came into office there has been a five-year guaranteed price for wheat at a higher level than the price ever stood at during their period of administration.

You did not make that. It was made before you came in.

Oh, not at all.

Acting-Chairman

Order, please.

The Deputy forgets that, if you talk like that in Balbriggan, you may impress a small crowd and your words are quickly forgotten.

That is true.

But there is no use bellowing like the Bull of Bashan here because the record is there and the only result of bellowing like the Bull of Bashan what is manifestly false here is that at some future date somebody will take that out and quote it against the Deputy as irrefutable evidence of the utter unreality of everything he says.

God forbid I should be as false as you are, anyway.

Acting-Chairman

Order.

If the Deputy ever gets where I am it will be the greatest miracle since Moses struck the rock. I want to tell the House that my opinion about wheat has not changed one bit since this Government came into office. This is a democratic country. The Fianna Fáil Party and their supporters have something amounting to a mystic devotion to this crop. Their conduct during their period of office has been revolting, corrupt, tyrannical, insolent and outrageous, and they know that and they——

On a point of order. The Minister alleges that Ministers of State and the Government were corrupt. Can he prove that?

Acting-Chairman

Is that a point of order?

It is all very fine to be listening here to these things, but are you going to let this hypocrite here, talking in the name of a Minister of State, call people corrupt and try to slander them day after day? Is that decorum on the part of a responsible Minister of State?

Is it in order for a Minister to allege corruption against the previous Government?

I am not alleging it. I am asserting it.

This Minister is in here because——(Interruptions.)

Acting-Chairman

If the Minister would address the Chair this would not arise.

I thought I was addressing the Chair.

He cannot answer a question courteously.

Knowing their own corrupt and scandalous record, they naturally anticipated—judging their neighbours by themselves—that they would be trampled on, and their legitimate predilections would have been disregarded and affronted. That is what Fianna Fáil would have done had they been returned to office. Now, feeling for them in their present desolation, I think we should take an early opportunity of reassuring them that the true test of democracy is not that the majority shall rule but that, when the majority comes to rule, it will have due regard for the legitimate claims and expectations of the defeated minority. That is the true test of democracy.

These people have a kind of mystic love for growing wheat. I want to carry conviction to their minds right from the first that, without passing the merits of what they long for at all, the very fact that they want this thing so passionately and that it is not inconsistent with the law is, to a democratic Government, a clear indication that if it is possible to give it to them within the law and the resources of the State we ought to give it to them.

Wheat was grown in this country to feed the people of this country when you were trying to sabotage the country.

Acting-Chairman

Order.

It was grown in spite of you to feed the people of the country.

Acting-Chairman

Order.

It was the sophisticated——

You tried to sabotage the work and it was done in spite of you.

Acting-Chairman

The Minister must be allowed to make his speech.

I was pointing out to the House that is was not the sophisticated who took scandal, but the simple and the ignorant, and that we were dealing with a body of men who were steeped in ignorance.

God help this country if you were Minister for Agriculture then.

On a point of order. Deputy Burke has persistently over the last half hour refused to obey your ruling. I ask that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle be sent for so that this debate may be concluded in order.

It is gross misrepresentation.

A Deputy

The Deputy is too full of wheat!

Does Deputy Captain Cowan realise that I was interrupted 60 times by that Minister over there?

Acting-Chairman

Order.

We indicated that there was a guaranteed price for wheat. I think we were right to do that. I think it was good policy and I think it was right, right from the word "go", to let the minority in this country know that no majority, so long as we were a Government, would be allowed to trample on their feeling or their claims; and that we recognised the duty of the Government, supported by whatever majority it might have, to do all that lay in its power to make the minority realise that, though their policy did not prevail, the Government of Ireland was as much their servant as it was the servant of that majority which had voted for it. If I was wrong in that, then the blame is mine.

I am glad to say that pig production has shown, not what I think it would be right to call an "unexpected expansion" but a very gratifying expansion; and it is a source, I am obliged to confess, of some satisfaction to me to be able to record that, within 15 months of our accepting responsibility for the pig and bacon industry of this country, when the bacon ration was 25 per cent., of the normal consumption of the country, I am in a position now to announce that as from the 1st June there will be no rationing at all.

Leave a bit for Deputy Burke.

I hope Deputy Cogan will join cordially with me in rejoicing because the pigs are there.

I thought the Minister would give some credit to the farmers and their wives.

I thought I had been doing that for the last two hours and 20 minutes.

You never mentioned them.

I think I began my observations to-day by relating our attitude to the farmers and the attitude of Deputy Smith, and I emphasised the fact that we were their servants and looked to them to treat us as such that our job was, not to command them, direct them or compel them, but to place within their reach the means of doing their job in the conviction that no one in the world could do it better on the land of Ireland. How many times must I say that, again and again and again, to beat down the eternally stupid and sometimes malicious repetition of the falsehood that we believe we have a right to command as servants all those who, in fact, are our employers?

Deputy Corry had a great deal to say and there was one matter with which he dealt to which I wish to direct the special attention of this House. He spoke at length about the resources and activities of the Beet Growers' Association. Now, the Beet Growers' Association derive their funds from a levy made on beet. I have not seen their accounts published. How often are they published?

Has the Minister asked for the accounts of the association?

I have not but I am asking for them now.

Can you not do it otherwise than in the Dáil——

Acting-Chairman

Order.

——by slandering men who are not here to defend themselves ?

I want to know to whom they have been produced, to whom are they accounted for and for what purposes are they held?

Have we descended so low in this nation that Ministers speaking here have to take advantage of this House to slander people who are not in a position to defend themselves? Decent Irishmen have gone to a premature grave for the honour of this Assembly.

Since when has it become a slander to ask a body like this to publish their accounts?

Why not ask for them without taking advantage of this Assembly to slander them?

Is it slander to ask members of the Fianna Fáil Party to publish their accounts? Is there a presumption in Deputy Burke's mind that there is something wrong? I have no such presumption, but has Deputy Burke, when he speaks of slander?

You are taking advantage of your position in this House to attack people who are not in a position to defend themselves.

The Chair has been insulted by Deputy Burke for the last 25 minutes. I now move that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle be sent for.

Acting-Chairman

I am not accepting that motion, but Deputy Burke will have to leave the House if he continues interrupting.

You have ruled that Deputy Burke must leave the House.

Acting-Chairman

If he continues interrupting.

The Dairy Disposals Board has been called in question by Deputy Corry. The title of that body was given to it when it was first constituted. It was not styled "The Dairy Acquisition Board" or "The Dairy Operations Board." It was charged, under this title, to dispose of these properties as soon as might be. I want to say that the Dairy Disposals Board, the chairman and directors who preside over it, have performed for the rural community they serve a work the full value of which this country may never know. There are few living men who have more faithfully, with more brilliant success or with less ostentation, served the people for whom they worked than the chairman of the Dairy Disposals Board. The more I learn of the measure of his achievements for those whose interests he was charged to care, the more bitterly I resent the reckless aspersions that are sometimes cast upon their work by those who are in no sense qualified to judge of what they do.

I understand my assignment to be that, as soon as I am satisfied that a certain group of creameries have become an economic unit with a reasonable prospect of working successfully as a co-operative society, to hand over these groups to a well-constituted body of persons whom the I.O.A.S. can certify as competent to administer the affairs of that society, whether the chairman be a member of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Clann na Talmhan or anything else. I look to the I.O.A.S. for a certificate that this is a group of public-spirited competent, reasonable men to constitute a co-operative society to carry on the creamery industry in their area. I then charge myself with conveying these assets to that reconstituted creamery group at a price, not only which represents good value for their money but which gives them the supplementary guarantee that they are going to set out on their new venture with a creamery that is well worth the money they paid for it, a creamery that is being bought cheaply from the Dairy Disposals Board, and in the knowledge that the contribution to the price which has made it cheap was made deliberately with the approval of Oireachtas Éireann so as to ensure that when the co-operative society get going, they will do so on a sound footing with a bit of money in their possession so that they will not be pulling the devil by the tail from the first day they start.

Deputy Beegan inquired about braxy in sheep. I think he will have found out for himself that there is, in fact, a serum available for inoculation for details of which he can apply to the veterinary division of my Department. If local veterinary surgeons cannot get this serum, and communicate with our veterinary branch, we shall be glad to put them in the way of getting it.

I cannot for the life of me make out whether Fianna Fáil wants maize meal for this country or whether they do not. I wish they would make up their minds definitely on that matter. I promised to bring in maize and distribute it all over the country at about £20 a ton. The nearest thing I could go to that was to provide it at £21 a ton. In the past if maize were £21 a ton in Cork, it was about £24 a ton in West Kerry, and then the miller put his profit on to that again so that the farmer in West Kerry had to pay 2/-or 3/- a cwt. more than the farmer in West Cork and the farmer in West Mayo had to pay 4/- a cwt. more than the man in County Dublin. The millers started a subsidy on the transport of maize to the millers of the West of Ireland, but not to the contemptible farmers. They were beneath Deputy Lemass' attention when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce. He was solicitous to see that the maize would be subsidised to the millers in the West of Ireland, but the farmers— phew! Of what significance were they? That is how matters were when they were transferred to me. I said: "I have no objection to the millers getting their bit out of it if they are fit, but this maize is produced, not for the millers, but for the farmers. I want to see that if it is to be subsidised as far as freight is concerned then that subsidy must go to the farmers. The level of the price of maize should be the same all over Ireland, whether it is for a man living in Belmullet or for a man living in Blackrock." Was that fair? I think it was fair. I think that the man in Belmullet has as much right to live as the man in Blackrock and he has not a tram to bring him in, he has to foot it. If there is to be any subsidy on freight, then the subsidy on freight should go to them. A lot of people living around Cork and Dublin kicked up an awful row. Fellows drove up to my Department in 28 horse power Chrysler cars to say that they would starve if we did this thing. How would they live? They were millers. I said: "Go down to Belmullet and live there."

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

Did any trade unions come?

No, they did not. You will try to get them, but you have not fooled them. I am glad to tell the House that the scheme worked very well. People are getting accustomed to the fact that the fellow who feeds a pig in Belmullet is just as valuable as the man who grinds a cargo of maize in Dublin. I have no complaint to make about the man who works all his life and saves up enough money to buy a Chrysler car. Confidentially, I did it myself and enjoyed it, but I think it is incongruous for people who have worked all their lives and accumulated a bit of money to demand as a right to be quartered in perpetuity as a standing charge on the farmers of Belmullet or Ballycastle in order to ensure that at no conceivable future date they would be required to ride a bicycle again, whether the fellow in Belmullet or Ballycastle has clogs or boots to his feet. I am selling the maize in Belmullet—or at least, in Ballina which is as far as the railway goes—at the same price as it goes in Blackrock. But in the ordinary course of trade—I was able to sell it at £21 a ton up to last week—it is £22 now, because we have to pay the price the C.C.C. in Washington charges. I think it will come down again, but it is certain that it is much better when everybody has it at £22 a ton than things would be if, no matter what the C.C.C. charged for it, the retail price of Indian meal were fixed by the Maize Meal Millers' Committee. They had that power too long. They will never have it again.

If the world is drowning, for the Minister the sun is shining on him.

I am trying to find anything that any Deputy may have said that I have not touched upon in the course of my observations. Deputy McQuillan spoke of zoning the country for various types of agriculture. I see his point; I have often heard it argued and I am bound to rejoin that I do not agree with him. I think this country is small enough to justify aiming at an agricultural policy that will integrate without creating fresh borders within which people are required to have certain particular bents. In practice, of course, it works out that our Department approaches West Galway, West Mayo or West Kerry with an entirely different organisation, an entirely different scheme altogether, than they would approach Meath or Westmeath. All through the congested areas we have what are called "agricultural overseers" and "assistant agricultural overseers" who spend all their lives studying the requirements of the ten acre men, the men with small fields and small holdings, who must have concentrated production if they are to live at all. These men are constantly moving around among them promoting little ideas and schemes which would be quite inappropriate to Tipperary or Waterford. In effect, the Department realised that certain areas have their own type of agriculture and make their arrangements accordingly but there are no rigid restrictions on any areas. A very good example is the travelling creamery.

There are certain areas where we put in travelling creameries for the simple reason that the roads are so bad and so narrow that the people cannot get carts with milk cans out on them. I am glad to tell the House that we have completed arrangements for a travelling creamery for Glengarriff and other areas in that locality. We have been trying to do it for the past 12 years and the reason it could not be done before is that we could not get the travelling creamery over the road. The road had to be widened and at last the road has been widened and they can get in. That is the kind of difficulty against which you have to equip yourself. As far as that matter is concerned, the Department is very wide awake and have different schemes for the different types of agriculture in different parts of the country.

Why do Deputies of this House try to make an antithesis between imported feeding-stuffs and the use of feeding-stuffs which we grow on our own land? I want to see our people using all the feeding-stuffs they produce on the land and call that 100 per cent. production and then with imported feeding-stuffs we will raise our production to 150. How else can we raise the standard of living of people who have small holdings? There are two things we can do; one is to increase the productivity of the 15 or 20 acres they have and the other is to enable them to bring on to their holding, in addition to what their own holding produces, additional raw materials, over and above what they produce themselves, run little factories in every home which bring on to the premises a raw material, which employ the family, which turn out various produce and reap the profit.

Is there anything wrong in that? Do Fianna Fáil think that I should go to every ten-, 15- or 20-acre farmer in Ireland and say "Thus far shalt thou go and no further". You know I have often wondered if this were not true: Fianna Fáil believed in the system of government by corruption and in order to be able to corrupt the people you had to rob them of their independence. You had to make them dependent on relief, on doles and on pensions and I think the hatred and the fury that I, as Minister for Agriculture, excite in the breast of Fianna Fáil is because I correctly interpret the desire of the Parties on this side of the House to make our small farmers independent, to put them in the position that they can say to any T.D., civil servant, Minister or anyone else: "That is my gate, do not open it; I do not want you, I am able to get along without you." For the last 15 years there have been very few small farmers in the country in a position to say to a Fianna Fáil T.D.: "Get to hell off my land, I do not want you", because he could hurt them. To live they had to get the Old Age Pension for the old woman, maybe, who was in the house or a bit of grant to build a road; they had to get the dole to stretch out their income because their means of living had been largely taken from them. They were encouraged to covet their neighbours' land, and hoped to be able to get it, if they only toed the line. The poorer they became, the more firmly the grip controlled them and the jumped-up Fianna Fáil T.D. could more often experience the exciting thrill of hearing his neighbour say: "Your honour's honour is very welcome". Back into this country was creeping the language of oppression, the language the people were forced for their survival to employ vis-a-vis the landlords who would not let them live if they would not bow down before them. The Deputies on this side of the House come of the people who cleared out the landlords and all they stood for. I saw growing up in this country a vast conspiracy of impoverishment of the small farmers amongst whom I was born and brought up. I saw them slowly brought to the point where they dare not cross the local Fianna Fáil T.D. and I know that the local Fianna Fáil T.D. has gone to them on the eve of election and warned them that, if they did not toe the line, they would not get their pension.

A Deputy

That is perfectly true.

The Minister seems to be travelling from the Estimate.

We could start the debate all over again, if the Minister wants that.

It is with the greatest respect that I make the case in respect of Fianna Fáil.

In respect of agriculture?

In regard to agriculture, they have impoverished every small farmer in this country. I have heard it said that Deputy de Valera was a great man for the poor, and inasmuch as there was never more poor people in Ireland than when he was in office, he was as safe as a house on fire. There was sense in that. They made them poor. They made them dependent and they lived out of the spoils of going round and threatening the people: "Put us back, put me back, or you will pay for your temerity."

That was the language used against Parnell.

It will never happen again. Once our people get back their independence—and they have got it now, because the small farms of this country are now paying to the men who work them, not riches but a material of independence—I warn the members of the Fianna Fáil Party that, if they ever go back on the same mission that they went on so often before, they will never know what hit them.

Try it out.

Deputy Lemass does not understand the Irish countryside. These boys will not try it out. Their fathers and grandfathers have told them of the bailiffs who hopped off the road when our people got fixity of tenure and they have no desire to hop in the same way now.

Give the people the chance.

The Minister should go on to the Estimate now.

No, I do not propose to legislate for a weekly half-holiday. I appreciate Deputy Dunne's point of view, which he has expressed constructively and on which he has strongly expressed his dissent from my view. I have always spoken with reasonable civility to Deputy Dunne and I think he has put his case here in the House forcibly but courteously to me. We must agree to differ. I will not bring in legislation for a weekly half-holiday, as I do not believe the bulk of our people want it. The fact, however, that this House does not legislate for a half-holiday is no reason why individual farmers should not provide it. It is no reason why Deputy Dunne, in the ordinary course of trade union agitation, should not seek it. This is a free country. In many parts of the country, the Deputy has got it already for the members of his union. On the State farms, I am instituting a weekly half-holiday—not because Deputy Dunne wants it. I am not doing it in the way he suggests, but in another way. They work 54 hours a week, but, by collaboration between themselves, each man can take a half-holiday once a week. That is in operation. I would ask Deputy Dunne to remember—I think he does—that the Agricultural Wages Board is not called upon to fix the wages of farm labourers but called upon to fix the minimum wage below which it is a breach of the law to go. There are not many good agricultural labourers in the country who are constrained to take the minimum wage. If they were paid only the minimum wage, the farmer could not keep them.

Many of them have to take less.

On the State farms £3 5/-is payable in respect of every farm labourer, which is 5/- above the minimum rate. If Deputy Davern informs this House that many of them have to take less, I wish he would do his public duty and get in touch with the branch manager in the employment exchange in Clonmel, who informed me a fortnight ago that if he had one single good agricultural worker on his books he would be killed in the rush of farmers looking for him on his way out of the exchange.

I can give the Minister half a dozen names.

I ask Deputy Davern to get in touch with the branch manager in Clonmel and furnish him with the names of the good agricultural workers who are constrained, through lack of work, to take less than their statutory due. He will discharge a public duty in relieving those oppressed workers on the one hand and in bringing to justice the law breaking farmers on the other hand; and he will be communicating also to industrious farmers the knowledge of willing workers whom those farmers are most anxious to employ. Let the Deputy go down to Clonmel and ask the branch manager at the labour exchange about what he told me and, if the Deputy fails to get satisfaction there, let him write to me and I will take the matter up forthwith. I have undertaken, however—it is an undertaking I issued before—to bring before this House—and I speak with the authority of the Government—a measure designed to provide by law for seven days' annual leave for all agricultural workers, with full pay. I do not expect that to excite salvoes of enthusiastic applause amongst all the farmers of the country, but I will answer for 80 per cent. of them, who are decent reasonable men and who will be glad to have that matter finally settled one way or the other, and who, when they put their minds to it, will find no insuperable difficulty in making the requisite provision.

Deputy Derrig waltzed into our discussions here and his was a very odd contribution. He wanted to make out that, because I took exception to the 11 months' system on the land in Meath, I was interfering in the domestic affairs of the farmers of that county. I have dealt with that already and do not propose to go over it again. Then he fell into Deputy Allen's trick, but, to do him justice, I do not think he was being dishonest, as I know Deputy Allen was—he may have made a mistake about the Estimate in respect of glasshouses. The reason there is a reduction in the glasshouses Estimate this year is that provision was made for the capital installation last year and only for maintenance this year.

Will the Minister give way for a moment?

Indeed, I will not.

Deputy Allen has as much right to interrupt the Minister as the Minister has to interrupt him.

On a point of order——

Is this a point of order, Sir?

The Chair must hear it first.

The Minister charged me with quoting false figures from the Estimates and he has repeated that charge. I deny it and I challenge the Minister——

That is not a point of order.

The Minister charged Deputy Allen with being dishonest.

Not for the first time. A variety of other topics has been raised, but I think that in the general observations I have made, I have covered every legitimate inquiry addressed to me. If any matters remain, I should be very glad if Deputies would direct my attention to them individually, when I shall be very pleased to give them any information in correspondence which I failed to provide in the course of this discussion.

What about the Chappie case?

Perhaps I had better give the details as it is really rather an interesting matter. Chappie's wanted to can horse and I want to tell the Dáil about the policy of Chappie's. The proposal first came before my predecessor and Deputy Lemass as a proposal to manufacture dogs' food and they very properly, said that such a proposal was excellent and they approved of it. When I came into office, everything was going forward like a wedding bell, on the basis that they were going to tin dogs' food under the name of Chappie and ship it to England. It quickly transpired that the British Board of Trade would not permit the import of dogs' food.

The directors came to see me, and I had every sympathy with them, and they said they would like to turn over to the canning of horse meat for human consumption for consignment to the Continent. I said that that was a trade we would not license, that we had very large canning interests and had acquired a very high reputation abroad for canned cooked foods, that I felt that it would react on the reputation we had acquired, which was a very valuable asset, if we became known as shippers of canned horse and that unscrupulous persons on the Continent under the Trade Marks Acts obtaining could describe a tin of horse of that character as prime Irish meat.

There was a lot of hubbub and hullabaloo and then they asked if I would allow them to ship it abroad to the Continent as dogs' food. I said: "Certainly, but I know that you will wish to colloborate with me in preventing the possibility of any unscrupulous agent on the Continent buying it as dogs' food and then reselling it for human consumption to displaced persons or some afflicted section of the community." They said: "Of course; we will label the cases." I said that would not do, that they would need to do a little more, and label each individual tin. They said: "We will get a nice label and put it on them." I replied: "That will not do. You know how unreliable these continentals are. I think we had better emboss the tin." They said: "You do not understand. There is no means of doing it; it cannot be done." I said: "I am embossing about 1,000,000 tins a week and, if you do not know how to do it, you can come to our factory at Lansdowne where we will give you a demonstration and lend you the machine." They said they had discovered that they had made a mistake, that they could emboss the tins and they asked what I wanted on them. I said: "I want `Dogs' Food' embossed on the tin." They thought that a bit crude and I said: "I mean to be crude. I want people who buy it to know what is in the tin," and they went away.

A week later, I got a letter from the board of directors saying that they presumed that, as a Minister of an Irish Government, I would not object to the use of the Irish language and that they had asked a prominent member of the Gaelic League to translate the phrase "Dogs' Food" into Irish for them. The translation of "Dogs' Food" was written "Con Biaidh". I said that that was a very praiseworthy piece of research and that it was most edifying that they should use the Irish language but I regretted that my crude mercantile soul induced me to suggest that, in addition to the Irish language, they should put in crude English the words "Dogs' Food". They wrote back and said that they were doing that.

I notice that the Labour Deputies are enjoying this. If they were in Clonmel, where 260 people were put out of employment, they might not enjoy it so much.

The Deputy must wait until I finish the story. They did put on "Dogs' Food", and, when they sent a sample tin to me, the inscription read: "Condog Biaidh Food". I said: "That will not do; the people who are going to eat this commodity cannot be expected to do a problem in hieroglyphics before they start their meal. These two descriptions must be separate." It was at that stage that somebody said to me: "Do you know the East Cork dialect of Irish?""No," I said, "any Irish I have I learned in Ballingeary or Donegal.""Do you know," I was asked, "that in East Cork it is a perfectly legitimate pronunciation of "Con Biaidh" to pronounce it "con bee-uff?" Would you believe that until that moment, it never occurred to my mind, but suddenly I saw the picture of some poor Pole or Czech or Lithuanian in a displaced persons' camp in Germany saying: "Was ist das?" and the dispenser saying: "Das ist con bee-uff," and the displaced person saying: "Oh, corned beef—danke schon," and going away eating his mouthful of Chappie's horse. Does Deputy Davern want my opinion of the people who would sell canned horse labelled "Con Biaidh" to displaced persons dying of hunger in the concentration camps of Europe?

They are not anything worse than the people who——

I told that story under no cloak of privilege to a deputation of 24 men who came up from Clonmel town to ask me about it.

I have been asked a question.

I think our people, when they hear that story, will thank God that the men who are responsible for that dirty fraud are gone out of this country and pray God they will never come back but I am glad to tell the House that, since they went, honest men have bought that factory and I hope that a far larger number of men are going to do honest work in that factory, not for the limited time requisite to earn dollars out of starving people to bring illegitimate funds from a sterling area back to a dollar area——

They were not anything worse than the people who sold bread soda at £80 a ton in the black-market.

——but for the purpose of operating an honest industry——

What would you have done to the people who sold bread soda at £80 a ton?

——employing Irish citizens at work they need never be ashamed of, producing something they need never afterwards feel was sent to hungry people from this country under a misleading description.

Were not the people spending money having the dogs' food labelled?

"Con Biaidh."

Labelled "Dogs' Food ". That is not correct.

Shame on the dishonest rascals who proposed that fraud to me.

You are trying to justify yourself for closing down the factory.

Shame on those who put that dishonest proposal to me and my hearty congratulations to the decent citizens of Clonmel who are going to work that factory at honest work, for honest profit, producing honest goods that will reflect credit, not only on themselves but on the country from which they come.

Will there be 260 people employed, and at what wages?

Much more.

Much more?

There could be 260 people robbing a bank or anything and that is not useful employment. Stop it.

There is a difference between robbing a bank and working for honest wages.

I doff my hat before a man who robbed a bank in comparison with people who would rob the hungry of the right to live. A burglar goes to jail, taking the consequences of his acts, but a dirty fraud who battens on the sufferings of hungry people must be a man born without soul or conscience.

I have told the House what I have done during the last 12 months as Minister for Agriculture in this country as best I can recite that record. That is the Department of Agriculture which forms part of this Government and for all of which this Government is jointly responsible. I put that record confidently before Dáil Éireann for comparison with that of the Administration that has gone before. I put it forward with diffidence for comparison with what perfection might have achieved, but I put it forward with the confident hope that the colleagues, for whose judgment I have respect and on whose judgment I set value, will be prepared by their votes to vindicate my conduct of the Department they have entrusted to my care.

Question—"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 59; Níl, 66.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Carter, Thomas.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • De Valera, Vivion.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, James.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lydon, Michael F.
  • McCann, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl

  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Sir John L.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Fitzpatrick, Michael.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Halliden, Patrick J.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keane, Seán.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kinane, Patrick.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Con.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Martin.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sheehan, Michael.
  • Sheldon, William A. W.
  • Spring, Daniel.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Kennedy and Ó Briain; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Kyne.
Question declared lost.
Vote put and agreed to.
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