Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Jun 1949

Vol. 116 No. 1

Supplementary Estimates, 1949-50. - Vote 54—Gaeltacht Services.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Blowick)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £15,300 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1950, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Gaeltacht Services, including Housing Grants and the purchase and sale of Homespuns.

This Supplementary Estimate is being introduced to provide for expenditure consequent on the enactment of the Housing (Gaeltacht) Amendment) Act, 1949.

The total additional amount now being provided is £15,300, which is made up as follows: An additional £600 under sub-head A of the Vote for salaries and wages of administrative staff; an additional £3,260 under sub-head H (1) for the salaries and wages of the outdoor housing staff; an additional £1,840 under sub-head H (2) for travelling and miscellaneous expenses of that outdoor staff; and an additional £9,600 making, with the provision in the main Estimate, £10,850 in all, under sub-head H (3) in respect of the payment of grants under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts, 1929 to 1949. This Estimate is based on a careful survey of housing conditions in the Gaeltacht, and past experience of the operation of the Gaeltacht Housing Acts.

The total provision of £10,850 in respect of grants may seem small but it must be remembered that grants are paid in instalments according as the work progresses, and in all the circumstances it is thought that the provision of £10,850 under sub-head H (3) will be sufficient to meet claims falling to be made under the amended Acts during the current financial year. If the work of building and repairing houses under these Acts proceeds at a much quicker rate than is anticipated, then I will have no hesitation in asking the House to make further sums available. Previous experience, however, indicates that the sum proposed will be adequate.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Sílim go mba mhaith linn tuairim d'fháil ón Aire faoi cé mhéad tithe a cheapann sé a tógadh go dtí seo faoi na hAchta atá dá stiúrú aige i gcóir na Gaeltachta agus faoi cé mhéad a cheapann sé atá le déanamh fós. Mar a admhaíonn sé féin, féachann an tsuim atá curtha ar leataoibh don obair seo an-tsuarach. Is ionadh liom na costais rialacháin a bheith chomh mór sin i gcomparáid leis an méid a caitear ar na tithe.

I think that if the Minister could give us some information as to the extent of the problem which remains to be dealt with as far as Gaeltacht housing is concerned, the House would be able to judge whether the amount that he seeks, the sum of £9,600, can be described as reasonably adequate. It seems on the face of it to be extremely inadequate from the point of view of the number of houses which can be built for that sum, even allowing that the payments are to be made by instalments and having regard to the amount that is being set aside for administration. I think that the Minister should give us some more information as to the extent of this problem. £9,600 cannot possibly be anything more than a mere flea-bite. In the case of some of the areas in Donegal I am quite sure that there are estates where it would take far more than the whole of this sum, in fact, several times £9,600, to effect a radical improvement. If the Minister is in earnest about proceeding with housing in Gaeltacht areas I think he will certainly have to spend a very much larger sum than is here contemplated. We have not had the advantage either on the main Estimate or now of having a succinct account of what exactly remains to be done. I gather from the Minister that he has exact figures, or at any rate that some kind of survey has been made which enables him to judge of the extent of the problem which remains to be solved. Having regard to the intense congestion in these areas and the very severe economic conditions under which the people try to exist—they are not really existing in a great many cases but merely living from hand to mouth—one of the first necessities is to try to provide them with decent houses. Certainly it is no cause for congratulation for any of us to feel that this problem still remains even to the extent it does remain. I suggest that the Minister ought to take the House into his confidence and state definitely what is its extent, what is the total sum which he thinks may be necessary and the number of applicants which he foresees will be looking for grants. Is it the position that there are in fact no applications in at the moment or are there applications on which the administrative staff can get to work? The value of the scheme is that it helps very poor people in a way that other Government schemes will not in the provision of materials. Even when their resources are extremely limited Government assistance in securing materials, timber, slates and so on, enables these people who would be absolutely prevented from building houses for themselves to secure accommodation.

Mr. Palmer

It comes rather strangely from Deputy Derrig to have any grievance in connection with the services now being rendered to the Gaeltacht by the present Minister for Lands because when the Deputy's Party increased the grants for housing they forgot the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Derrig

We did not.

Mr. Palmer

The old grant still remains but the Minister introduced a Bill recently increasing the grants for Gaeltacht houses so that they have not only the standard of ordinary housing but something in excess of that. I would suggest to the Minister—I believe it is in his mind and that he is making provision for it—to make this legislation retrospective to the time the last Government increased the ordinary housing grant. After all, with all the disabilities the people in the Gaeltacht suffer, the one thing we can do for them is to give them decent housing conditions. I feel perfectly sure that they will avail of the facilities of this. new provision so that their conditions will at least be brightened.

I believe that the inspectors—at least some of them—responsible for the inspection of applications for Gaeltacht housing grants are rather strict with regard to the knowledge of Irish of the families who make the application. After all, it may happen that a man from the Gaeltacht gets married to a lady from outside the Gaeltacht who may not have a knowledge of Irish and the children in that case may not have the knowledge of Irish required, strictly speaking. I think a great deal of common sense should be used in cases like that and the responsible inspector should use his discretion. When he submits his reports to the Department I hope that the Minister for Finance will see that there will not be too much strictness in carrying out the regulations so that nobody living in the Gaeltacht, so long as one member of the family has a knowledge of Irish, will be deprived of the grant to enable him to have a decent house.

Conchubhar Ó Liatháin

Níl ach abairt nó dhó le rá agamsa ar an Meastachán so. Ní aontóinn in aon chor leis an méid atá ráite ag an Teachta deireannach a labhair. Don Ghaeltacht a ceapadh an Fó-Mheastachán so, agus is dóigh liom, dá ndéantaí an rud atá ar aigne ag an dTeachta Palmer, go mbeadh baol ann ná héireodh leis an Aire an rud atá ar aigne aige a dhéanamh, le go mbeadh daoine ag fáil buntáiste as an scéim seo.

Gearóid Mac Parthaláin

Cuidím leis an gcaint a rinne an Teachta Ó Deirg faoin méid atá leagtha síos ar Riarachán agus an méid atá ceaptha le h-aghaidh tógáil na dtithe. Feictear dom gur mór an méid é £1,000 le h-aghaidh Riarachán in aghaidh £2,000 do tógáil na dtithe. Murab amhlaidh go bhfuil siad ag déanamh rudaí eile faoi Riarachán, ní thuigim an fáth go bhfuil an méid chomh mór seo. Béidir gur cheart don Aire gan níos mó ná £10,000 a thabhairt isteach chomh deireannach sa bhlian. Rinneadh moill mór an Bille a thabhairt isteach. Dúirt an Teachta Palmer gur dhein Rialtas Fianna Fáil dearmad ar an nGaeltacht. Ní hamhlaidh a bhí. Ní raibh an tAcht faoi Rialtas Áitiúil ach rite nuair cuireadh Rialtas Fianna Fáil as oifig. Siné an fáth nár thugadar isteach Bille na Gaeltachta, mar bhí socraithe ag an seanRialtas. Thugamar tús don scéim don tír ar fad, in aghaidh scéime do chuid amháin den tír. B'fhearr i bhfad é dá bhfágfaí an Bille mar a ghearramar amach é. Ba mhaith liom a mheabhrú don Teach faoi mo chuid eolais féin i dtaobh riaradh an Bille seo in aimsir Chumann na nGaedheal, agus an teist sin i dtaobh eolas ar an nGaeilge nuair a bhíodh duine ag iarraidh deontais faoin sean-Acht.

Tá ar mo eolas baile i gConamara taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Bhí ar an mbaile aon mhuirín amháin a raibh an Ghaeilge go líofa acu. Diúltaíodh deontas faoi scéim Acht Tithe na Gaeltachta don teaghlach sin, cé nach raibh ach an t-aon teaghlach amháin a raibh an Ghaeilge go líofa acu — agus rinneadh é sin mar gheall ar chúrsaí poilitíochta amháin. Sin freagra ar an gcaint a rinne an Teachta, agus marach gur dhúirt an rud a dúirt sé ní thabharfainn isteach é.

I want to support Deputy Derrig in his request for information as to the smallness of the amount of money for houses and the largeness of the part of the Vote for administration. Will the Minister say if the sum provided for administration is in respect of not alone this present year but will take in next year and subsequent years? The Minister knows that £10,000 at £250 per house—assuming they are five-roomed houses — would only build about 40 houses. It may be said it is rather late in the year to bring in any more money, but 40 houses spread over the Gaeltacht are not a large amount. I imagine there are more than 40 people ready to go ahead with the building and, in fact, I know some myself who have begun. I want to impress on the Minister that there are many cases which cannot be dealt with under this scheme because another section of the Minister's Department, the Land Commission, has not made progress with the rearrangement of holdings. The Minister knows there is a fairly large number of householders in the Gaeltacht who cannot get the grant under the Gaeltacht scheme or even under the local government scheme for the reason I have stated. They are living under very bad conditions and I have appealed year after year for these people. The Minister should bring about some close co-operation between the officials of the Land Commission and of the Gaeltacht housing branch so that the very worst of these cases could be dealt with. Surely the Land Commission officials ought to be able to say in respect of some of these congests: "You will not be changed off your present patch of land and we will allow you to build a house." There may be others who may be in doubt. Where the location of those houses is not in question, why they cannot get facilities under the Act is more than I could understand. I would ask the Minister to give special attention to that matter.

Mr. Blowick

I am not familiar with the case the Deputy mentions.

Mr. Bartley

There are places in my constituency—and I assume, also, in other Gaeltacht constituencies — in congested areas where the people do not qualify for building assistance under any housing Act because the Land Commission will not give a certificate that the lands will not be subject to rearrangement. To the extent to which the Minister can bring about co-operation between the Land Commission and the Gaeltacht housing section, I ask him to see that the largest number possible of these cases will be brought within the scope of the Gaeltacht Housing Act. On the main Estimate I mentioned a case in which a young couple purchased a farm which has no house or ruins of a house and under the regulations, as they have been operated, that type of case was not entitled to a grant under the Gaeltacht scheme.

Mr. Blowick

Under the regulations made under previous Acts?

Mr. Bartley

I understand that new regulations are about to come out and I hope the Minister will implement his promise to me on the main Estimate to examine the position. I hope he will do everything he can to ensure that the case of a young couple who buy an economic holding on which there is no ruin of a house will not be ruled out and that such purchasers of land where they are qualified otherwise—these people are Irish speakers—will be allowed the benefits of the present Act. I must say I have only one case in mind at the moment myself but I think that case justified bringing the matter generally to the Minister's notice.

Mr. McMenamin

I am glad to hear the Minister say that he is prepared to come to the House and ask for further money, if it should become necessary and I take it that the amount here is only a token amount, pending the applications coming in. As everybody knows, building in the Gaeltacht has been at a standstill for years. The House made special provision under the Local Government Act in respect of houses in rural Ireland outside the Gaeltacht, but the Gaeltacht was completely forgotten, and, as I say, building has been at a standstill there for years. I think that this amendment of the Act would need to be advertised so that people will know that it has been amended and that the new grants are now available. That is the first thing that should be done.

Two matters have been mentioned which should be settled forth with. One is the matter of inspectors interrogating people as to their proficiency in Irish. I understood that the Gaeltacht was a geographical area, that, irrespective of whether Irish, English, French or Italian was spoken there, the qualification was that the applicant resided in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, and I should like the Minister to give a definite assurance on the point, because otherwise it would mean throwing a spanner into the works which would entirely destroy the scheme.

The second matter is that referred to by Deputy Bartley with regard to the inspector raising the question of what will happen in the future to the holding occupied by the applicant. I do not think the inspector should interfere in that matter at all. It is a matter for the Department itself as to the title of the site on which the house is to be built at the time the application is made. The future may be left to look after itself. We are a long time awaiting the rearrangement of these holdings, the settlement of rundales and so on. Some of us have got very old listening to it and some others who are young will be much older before it is completed. Surely it is futile to suggest that an inspector or the Department should raise such points because the scheme could not go ahead on that basis at all. It was originally intended as a handy scheme to enable people who had not the means that other people have to build houses, and, while it was in operation, it was a great success. These fellows who had been in Scotland and in England working as builders' labourers built houses and made a very good job of them. They built these houses with granite which was available in their districts and I think that every facility should be given to them and that no question of what will happen in the future should be raised now.

It should be laid down definitely that the Fíor-Ghaeltacht is a geographical entity and that no question of the language spoken arises. If we begin to have these inquests, we will have all these inquests about the £5 grant, but it is not at all on the same footing. The children receive £5 for speaking Irish and coming from a home where Irish is spoken, while this is a matter of houses for the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. There are, as Deputy Palmer said, cases of marriage between a man in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and a girl who has been working in England, Scotland or in the Galltacht areas, but love does not draw a boundary between the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, the Breac-Ghaeltacht and the Galltacht. That is not the way it operates, and it would be unfortunate if the scheme were to be held up because of a petty point like that. The Fíor-Ghaeltacht is a geographical entity and anybody in the area who is prepared to build a house should have our good wishes.

Many houses have been built in the non-Gaeltacht areas for the past four years, but house building has been at a complete standstill in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. That is a bad state of affairs because, when people get into the habit of not doing something, it takes time to get them going again and you want four, five or six people in a parish to set an example so that the machine can be got going again. It is a machine which is completely dead in the Gaeltacht because the House forgot about it when the Local Government Act was being amended and obviously these people could not face up to the expense of building a house on a grant of £80. The Minister should give these people who are prepared to build houses every opportunity possible to do so. A lot was done, but much more remains to be done and the only way to get it done is by putting as few impediments as possible in their way.

I do not know whether these areas know that this Act has been amended. The inspectors cannot be expected to go around the laneways telling the people that increased grants are available. Something else must be done to bring it to their notice and a very suitable way would be by means of a circular to the clergy of all denominations in these areas which could be read out on Sunday. That is done with regard to other matters, such as tree planting and so on, and I am sure that the various clergymen would not object to doing it. Almost certainly, the Minister will require more money before the end of this year and I am sure he will tell these people that all the money they require will be made available when it is required.

Mr. Blowick

There is nobody prouder than I am to see the last obstacle cleared out of the way by the introduction of this Supplementary Estimate and to see the people in these areas who, as we all know, are badly in need of houses, enabled to get going on the work. Deputy Derrig and Deputy Bartley were anxious to know what number of applications we anticipate will come in. The figure is roughly 7,000. That may not be absolutely precise, but it is as near as we can get to it. We anticipate also about 900 applications in respect of renovations or improvements. All these will not come in in one, two or three years, because they will not all apply together, but there is a sizable number of applications already in. Roughly 430 applications are already on the stocks. It will take time to get things going.

There is a suggestion that the sum of money is small. It is small, but, nevertheless, taking into account the fact that we do not pay the full grant all at once, that we do not pay the full grant when the house is commenced—it is paid in three instalments —I anticipate that the sum asked for will be quite sufficient for the period until 31st March next, and possibly for a longer period. If more money is needed, nobody will be happier than I. If the number of applications and the rate of progress of the work are such that more money will be necessary. I cannot imagine—certainly it will not happen while I am here—the work being held up for a single day by reason of any failure to come here for a Supplementary Estimate. We anticipate that the sum asked for now will be quite sufficient for the coming year, because experience has shown that no house is completed under 12 months. From the date of the application the average period is from a year to a year and a half, and, in the case of improvements or renovations, roughly about half a year is the usual period. Taking all these matters into account, we are satisfied that the money asked for will be sufficient. As a matter of fact, I hope it will not be sufficient. While some building materials are plentiful enough, others are scarce. I hope that the supply of building materials that are scarce at the moment will become so freely available and that the number of applicants will be so great that I will be forced to come to the House for another sum. No Government — either the past two Governments or this Government—is anxious to skimp or save at the expense of the people in the Gaeltacht above any section of the community. Their demands on the public purse are very small when we consider the country as a whole. It would be like stripping the corpse to try to keep them down. The very opposite is the policy. We are anxious to improve their lot. I think that goes for the two previous Governments. I want to give merit where it is due. We are anxious to make the people of the Gaeltacht as comfortable as possible and to bring them up as much as possible. They happen to live in areas where nature is pretty harsh on them. The quality of the land is poor. In addition to the provision of housing, it is my desire and the desire of the present Government to improve their lot in the matter of rearrangement that Deputy Bartley spoke about and which I will deal with later, and also to provide some useful and good and remunerative employment, such as forestry, and so on.

Although it is not a matter that I should refer to on this particular occasion, it is no harm to transgress to the extent of one sentence, to say that their land is more suited in nearly all cases for forestry than it is for agriculture. Housing is just one little relief or comfort that we need to bring to them.

Deputy Bartley finds fault with us because we do not allow people to build houses under the Gaeltacht housing grant in some cases where rearrangement is in the offing. I think the Deputy should not have raised that point because the Land Commission or the Gaeltacht services section will not stop a man building a house, but it is obvious that if there is bad rundale in a townland or in a few townlands, and if the present occupiers of the land were allowed to build houses under this grant, we might find when we went in to rearrange, as we found recently in a certain area in County Mayo, that a man would have two dwelling-houses on the land after it was restriped or rearranged and we would have to build a new house in another area where there was not a house.

Mr. Bartley

I agree with all that, but the result is the same.

Mr. Blowick

I am as anxious as the Deputy is to come to the rescue of these people, but it would be very foolish to spend money or to allow them to build houses. As a matter of fact, I have the Land Commission officials driven crazy pressing them to take up these bad cases of rundale first. They are doing their very utmost to meet the situation and sometimes we are more anxious than the tenants to have rearrangement carried out. When we go in there we often find obstruction that upsets our plans and, perhaps, when an inspector has spent a month or two or even three trying to bring some kind of order into a very bad case of rundale in townlands or an estate, the tenants themselves obstruct and will not agree even though they know in their hearts that they are getting a good rearrangement. I do not want to say that that goes for all the tenants, but we have the case, and I am sure every Deputy from the congested areas is familiar with it, where you might have 16 to 30 tenants in townlands needing rearrangement and, perhaps, one or two out of the 30 might refuse to agree to the rearrangement scheme and hold up the whole work. Apart from rendering the work of the Land Commission absolutely useless, all the time, money and labour spent on it goes for nothing and one or two can hold up the scheme and keep their neighbours in poverty and misfortune just because they want to get a better share. They think that by being cranky or fighting for more they will get a better share.

Mr. Allen

Have you not compulsory powers?

Mr. Blowick

I would rather not discuss it with Deputy Allen because Deputy Allen comes from a county that is blessed to the extent that there is no bad case of rundale there, but Deputies from the West should know the problem that I am speaking about. You cannot use compulsory powers. You would not get the co-operation of those whom you are anxious to benefit, if you try compulsory powers. If you take up the land from the one or two cranks out of the 30 who are to benefit by the scheme, you will find—not in isolated cases but every single time— the neighbours immediately take the side of the objectors and refuse to take the land, although it would be of benefit to them.

That has been our experience and the only thing the Land Commission could do was to beat as graceful a retreat as they could and leave the matter there. That is what has happened. We do not allow houses to be built in some cases. We cannot do it because, while we would like to be lavish, we cannot afford to be extravagant or wasteful in dealing with the taxpayers' money. If we were to allow people to build a house under the Gaeltacht grant on a particular site which might fall to another neighbour in the course of rearrangement, the possibility is that that neighbour might have a house and would not want the one he was getting. That is the cause of the whole trouble.

Mr. Bartley

Would the Minister consider the suggestion I made, that is, that the Land Commission official, in consultation with the Gaeltacht housing official, could pick out holdings in a townland that is to be arranged that are likely to remain more or less as they are and on which there is a suitable site, that will remain the property of its present owner, and give that man the house, provided he is not an objector?

Mr. Blowick

There is absolutely no difficulty about that. The Land Commission inspector, if he is familiar with the particular area, knows by a glance at a map what holding will fall to a particular person and, as a matter of fact, we have the co-operation of the Land Commission officials in that regard. There is no trouble about that. It is the very bad cases of rundale that I am referring to.

Mr. Bartley

I am ruling out rundale.

Mr. Blowick

In regard to the point the Deputy has made, there is no difficulty there. Nearly all Deputies who spoke referred to Section 4 of the 1934 Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Act, which reads as follows:—

"Notwithstanding anything contained in the Principal Act, grants and loans under that Act shall be made only to the occupiers of dwelling-houses in which the Irish language is habitually used as the home language of the household, and, accordingly, so much of sub-section (3) of Section 11 of the Principal Act as requires the Minister to give a preference to the occupiers of such dwelling-houses shall cease to have effect."

That seems harsh. In other words, it means that if Irish is not the spoken language of the home the applicant does not get the grant. There is no use in wrapping it up in cotton wool. That is the Act and that is the way it is going to work, and, in my opinion, that is as it ought to be. Deputy McMenamin raised the point that the whole Gaeltacht was a geographical area. It is, but the object is to try to hold Irish as a spoken language in that area, to expand it, if possible. We are all anxious for that. I have never heard a Deputy, and I have heard very few people, say that that should not be.

Mr. McMenamin

It is a pity you do not do that in the Department of Education.

Mr. Blowick

If we give a grant to a person who does not speak Irish inside the Fíor-Ghaeltacht boundary, let us say, it places him in a different category at once and in a much more favourable position than his neighbour outside the boundary who will not get it anyhow. I would point out that that section is a section that has been carried down through all the Gaeltacht Housing Acts. It is absolutely necessary and I would not favour alteration of it at all. I think some softening of it was mentioned when the Bill was going through this House, and in the Seanad also, but I did not agree to it. It may be harsh when being put into operation, but, nevertheless, the spirit of the Act is the maintenance of the native tongue as much as possible within that area, and to extend it if possible. The area is defined by the electoral divisions set out in the Schedule to the first Act. The number of electoral divisions in each county are very clearly marked out and can be easily seen on a map.

Mr. Derrig

If one goes by the number of children who are receiving the £5 bonus, there are not anything like 7,000 purely Irish-speaking households.

Mr. Blowick

In the whole area?

Mr. Derrig

Yes.

Mr. Blowick

Would the Deputy say that there are not 3,900 in Donegal; 740 in Mayo; 1,700, approximately, in Galway; 170 in Clare; 300 in Kerry; 100 in Cork, and 30 in Waterford?

Mr. Derrig

I have not the figures by me, but I am inclined to think that it is much less than 7,000.

Mr. Blowick

I must recall to the Deputy's mind what I said a moment ago. The survey may not be extremely exact or precise, but it is fairly close. We anticipate that 7,000 houses have yet to be built in that area, under this Act, and 894, to be accurate, to be improved or renovated. I think that figure is reasonably correct.

I may mention for the information of Deputies that the regulations under this Bill were laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas on the 2nd of this month. They are, therefore, available for any Deputy who wants to acquaint himself with their contents. Nobody would be more pleased than myself if the easing off in the scarcity of certain building materials, and the number of applications for new houses, were to force me into this House with a Supplementary Estimate before the end of the present financial year.

Vote put and agreed to.

Vote reported and agreed to.