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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 8 Jul 1949

Vol. 117 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 62—Wireless Broadcasting.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £136,980 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1950, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926), including Public Concerts.

The amount that will be needed in the Estimate before the House to defray the expenses of wireless broadcasting during the financial year 1949-50 is £204,980. This is a decrease of £45,730 on the Estimate for the previous year. The main decrease is in the Estimate for the provision of equipment, which is down by £39,675.

I shall refer briefly to the changes in the main sub-heads as compared with last year.

Sub-head A—Salaries and Wages— The sum required here is higher by £2,470 than last year. Actually additional expenditure on the staff sub-head will amount to about £11,000, due principally to the payment of a higher cost-of-living figure as well as to such matters as increments and to the fact that 53 pay-days will come into the financial year. The extra cost is offset, however, to the extent of about £8,600 by not making provision for certain posts which had been provided for last year for the operation of a short-wave service.

Sub-head B—Cost of Daily Programmes—The estimate in this sub-head, at £61,100, shows an increase of £1,250 over last year. It is expected that there will be increased expenditure of approximately £9,000, due chiefly to somewhat better provision for certain kinds of programmes and in particular for the variety type of programme. About £2,900 of an increase will be payable to the copyright societies for the use of gramophone records and of copyright music. This is due to the considerable expansion that has taken place in the number of wireless licence holders. The copyright payments are based on the number of licences. As against the increased expenditure in the provision there are decreases amounting to £7,400, due mainly to the absence of provision for artistes for a short-wave service.

Sub-head C—Musical Instruments and Music—The provision of £3,500 is £300 more than that of the previous year. Last year the provision included a sum of £1,800 for the purchase of pianos. It was not found possible, however, to obtain the instruments during 1948 and it has been necessary to make provision for them again this year. The provision for the purchase of music is £500 higher than that of last year. Both in regard to musical instruments and music it was, of course, impossible to procure them in any quantity during the war. The station wants several more pianos to cater for the needs of rehearsals and performances in studios provided away from the G.P.O., such as the Phoenix Hall, and in extra studios being provided in the G.P.O. itself. It is also desireable to purchase a good deal of music to build up a library which would, in the long run, save on the cost of hiring music. We had to decide, however, that although all these items are badly needed, we cannot make up in one year for the deficiencies of seven or eight years and that we must procure our needs by degrees. Some expenditure on items such as pianos must at the same time be looked for in the Estimate for Wireless Broadcasting in each of the coming years.

In a long-standing arrangement with Phonographic Performance, Limited, the company representing the gramophone record manufacturers, we have been obtaining records for the use of the broadcasting service on loan without payment except for copyright fees. We shall in future have to pay for these records and a sum of £700 has been included in the Estimate this year for the purpose. We understand that ours is the only broadcasting organisation dealing with Phonographic Performance, Limited, with which this loan arrangement has continued for so long.

Sub-head D—Travelling Expenses— This sub-head at £4,000 shows a reduction of £2,500 on the last Estimate. This is due principally to smaller provision needed for certain allowances and travelling expenses of members of the orchestra.

Sub-head F—Plant Equipment, Etc.— The provision required in this sub-head is £21,215, a decrease of £39,675 on last year's figure. As will be seen from the details of the sub-head the provision for plant and maintenance of the short-wave station is down by about £48,000, the only sum remaining for that station this year being £1,660, which is required principally for the final payment of the contract figure to the manufacturers for the equipment so far installed. As in the case of musical instruments the station would need a good deal more equipment than has been provided for to make up for the scarcity of war years but here again we are forced to proceed gradually.

The remaining sub-heads in which the provision is small and shows practically no variation from last year do not call for any special observation except that I should like to refer to a token provision in sub-head I for a radio journal. This provision was also shown last year and consideration has been given during the year as to the best method to adopt to provide the broadcasting service with a much-needed publicity medium. The matter has not yet been sufficiently advanced to enable me to give details to the House but I hope that suitable arrangements will be made within the next couple of months.

The receipts from wireless licence fees during the financial year 1948-49 amounted to £169,000 and from advertising programmes £42,000. The wireless licence receipts for the current year have been estimated to reach £175,000 and from advertising programmes £43,000. The total receipts are, therefore, estimated to reach £218,000. The expenditure estimated in the Broadcasting Vote for the present year is £204,980 and in other Votes for services to be given to broadcasting the amount is £45,606. The total estimated expenditures on broadcasting for the year is therefore expected to be £250,586 as against receipts of £218,000. In the receipts no account has been taken of the very considerable amount of work done by broadcasting in its programmes for other Departments.

Deputies will be interested to know that the number of wireless licences increased in 1948-49 from 195,000 to 272,000 that is by 77,000. We estimate that about 60,000 of the increase is due to a special country-wide campaign instituted at the end of 1948 to ensure as far as possible that all the people who had sets paid their licence fees. The House will, I am sure, be surprised to learn that nearly one quarter of the possessors of sets had not taken out licences for them when the campaign started. The licence fee is 12/6 a year or something less than 3d. a week. One would think that even those people whom we observe writing to the papers to say that they have no use for Radio Éireann would be glad to pay that sum for the privilege of grousing at the station.

That will be 2½d. on that.

As you have heard from the figures I have given the receipts from licences and advertising programmes do not meet the expenses of broadcasting and we do not think it fair that the burden of the taxpayer should be added to further by people who expect others to pay for their broadcasting entertainment. We intend, therefore, to keep up the pressure on any who may persist in evading the obligation to pay their wireless licence fee.

Up to recent times the problem of interference with broadcast reception by electrical apparatus was not very serious but the number of complaints reaching the Department in this matter is now increasing. This is no doubt due in part to the expansion in the use of electrical equipment but I have the feeling that it has also some connection with the result of the recent drive against licence defaulters. Listeners who had sets without licences were obviously not disposed to draw attention to the fact by making complaints of interference but once they were obliged to meet the licence obligation they were more inclined to become voluble about the quality of reception than the listener who always paid his licence fee. Whether or not this is part of the cause of the increased volume of complaints of interference it is the fact that the problem is now of greater dimensions than before. The House will appreciate that the broadcasting service does not itself cause the interference and equally with listeners it has a grievance that such interference is occurring. Listeners, however, turn to the broadcasting authorities, or more precisely to the Post Office which collects the licence fees, to request relief from their trouble and we are anxious to help them as much as possible.

As Deputies may have observed in the Press the British authorities took legislative powers recently to deal with this matter. I am sure they disliked having to take these compulsory powers and we, too, would much prefer if we could rely on voluntary co-operation to reduce or eliminate interference. Compulsory powers involve the creation of an inspectorial organisation with the right to search for offending apparatus and to institute prosecutions if remedial measures are not applied. Nobody wishes to have to invade the sanctity of the home in that way if it can be avoided. It will be realised, too, that legislation in itself does not remedy a single source of interference. What it does mean is that interference by electrical apparatus is removed by compulsion instead of by voluntary co-operation. We would obviously prefer co-operation. Our engineering officers are at present engaged in the job of improving the organisation for locating apparatus causing interference, and where such apparatus is located we sincerely hope and expect that the owners of it will take steps to have fittings added which will improve matters. Generally, these fittings are quite inexpensive. It will be realised that it is sometimes a difficult job to locate the source of interference in an area when I say that such items as domestic electric irons and even electric bed warmers can cause interference over an appreciable area. The full co-operation of set owners will also be needed.

When reception is marred by noise, listeners should not assume at once that electrical equipment is causing it and write to the Post Office. The trouble may be in the set itself or may be due to an ineffective earth or aerial. Listeners should have their sets examined before they complain of interference. Further, when listeners in a district are pretty sure that some piece of local electric apparatus is causing interference, they can often secure the co-operation of the owner in effecting a remedy without coming to the Post Office. There is bound to be a time lag in looking into these complaints and naturally priority will be given to those areas in which a number of complaints makes it reasonably certain that the interference is coming from outside sources and is serious. The Department would be obliged, therefore, if everything possible is done to ensure that complaints are made only when the owner of the set is reasonably sure that everything is in order in connection with the set and that the interference is occurring with his neighbour's reception as well as with his own.

I should now like to give the House some information of the activities of the broadcasting station during the past year. The reorganisation of the programme sections to which I referred in the last Estimate has now been firmly established. The changes in the main took the form of having staff personnel such as actors, producers and script writers, employed permanently in the station instead of engaging persons specially for each production as it took place. The change to permanent staff has been an undoubted success. In fact, it would have been practically impossible to have carried on broadcasting for much longer under the old system of ad hoc engagements. These new staff sections have been firmly integrated into the structure of Radio Éireann, and the new officers thoroughly trained in radio techniques.

Deputies will appreciate that the making of a competent and resourceful radio officer is a relatively long and difficult task, because the type of work they have to do is still unusual, radio being as yet the youngest of the media of mass-communication, if we except television. Further, we have not in Radio Éireann, as other countries have in their broadcasting organisations, professional school which exist solely to teach newcomers the elements of their craft before they engage in the practice of it. Again, some of these new sections and appointments represented new sorts of activity, which had not previously been attempted by Radio Éireann; so that it was necessary to establish new routines and methods in connection with them. Such of the new staff as were not already experienced in broadcasting have been given an exact and fruitful training and their contribution to the general improvement of programmes is such as was expected when they were appointed. On occasions such as the recent Easter programmes, the advantages were manifest of having professional staff constantly available instead of depending on odd job people. The combination of the sacred season, the national celebrations and the holidays, constituted a demand greater, probably, than any single demand formerly made on the broadcasting service. Almost the entire resources of Radio Éireann had to be thrown into the effort, and the staff were extended to the fullest. The job was done, but it could not have been done with the type of organisation the station had to depend on up to 1947.

In 1948 I told you that we had got a recording unit with van for recordings away from the station. This is a form of activity that Radio Éireann did not engage in previously. A second recording van was delivered during the year and we now have two groups of officers, each group consisting of an outside broadcasts officer with an engineer—and sometimes a scriptwriter or descriptive news-writer—constantly moving about the country in search of programme material of all sorts, from folk songs to news stories. Some of the Deputies will have first-hand knowledge of the work of this section in collecting traditional lore, reporting local and national celebrations, recording talent for the programme heads to judge, and building actuality features about such enterprises as rural electrification, parish guilds, etc. The coverage given to the '98 celebrations would not have been possible without these vans, nor would the intensive search just begun, for authentic Gaeltacht material to put into the programmes. I regard the work done in this field as a most important recent development, important for ourselves at home, because it gives a freer public utterance to Irishmen and women throughout the country; and important for the prestige and good relations of the country with its neighbours, because in the course of it we are enabled to assist British, French, Swiss and other broadcasting bodies in reporting Irish life and affairs to their listeners. Co-operation with foreign broadcasting organisations extends, of course, beyond mere recording work and is an increasingly important aspect of Irish broadcasting.

Unfortunately, the station has not the staff, studios or equipment to enable it to co-operate with other countries to the extent which is desirable, but we have given and received assistance to a greater extent than ever before—studio facilities, use of recording vans, exchanges of programmes, simultaneous broadcasts and so forth. To me, this seems a very healthy thing and something which we should encourage and promote, by every means, primarily by the strengthening of Radio Éireann's resources. Apart from the opportunities which such activities give to our officers, to compare their work with that of other countries, there are the broader benefits, first of friendly contact between men of one craft but different nationalities and second of interpreting Irish affairs to foreign listeners. The House will, no doubt, be glad to know that, despite our relatively modest resources of men, money and equipment, we have many times been thanked for our assistance by national and international bodies.

Since I am speaking of foreign relations, I may remark here that we continued in the past 12 months the policy of engaging eminent foreign conductors, for short periods each, to direct our symphony orchestra. The orchestra, like other units of Radio Éireann, has strengthened its position and absorbed its new talent to a gratifying extent, and the works played at the twice-weekly concerts in the Phoenix Hall and broadcast to the nation have been of an impressive range, and have, in the opinion of competent critics, received performances of good quality.

Experiments have been made in the association of the symphony orchestra with choral bodies, such as Cór Radio Éireann, and with the Repertory Company of Players. The orchestra has also been employed, as in former years, to give young Irish musicians experience in conducting, and to enable them to hear their compositions played by a professional team. They have also had the benefit of advice from the guest conductors. In this same sphere of classical music, a series of Saturday chamber music concerts was broadcast and in the series listeners were enabled to hear some of the finest small ensembles that have ever visited Ireland.

We did not, needless to remark, overlook the fact that a high proportion of the licence-holders demand entertainment of a lighter kind than is provided by classical concerts. Indeed, it is safe to say that in no previous year was so much attention given to the creation of programmes which would combine comedy, popular music and leading figures in the world of popular entertainment. So adventurously was this work undertaken that some of the most popular features were temporarily suspended to make room for new, and in some cases more ambitious, projects. The vindication of our confidence was that many of the new programmes have become as favoured as the old ones to which listeners had formed a certain attachment. There are more light programmes being broadcast this year than ever before, and the fact is, I believe, generally recognised. To this desirable situation, the new as well as the old sections of Radio Éireann have contributed. Among these is the light orchestra which, like its companion combination, has settled into the framework satisfactorily. In addition to the lightening of the programmes, practically every important sports event was broadcast or given special coverage in news reports.

Notwithstanding advances I have referred to in light entertainment, we would like to have further opportunities of catering for the varied tastes of listeners. Our broadcasting hours are somewhat restricted, so that in evolving new entertainments we are, as I indicated just now, sometimes compelled to "rest" others which still have a large following. I should at the same time mention, perhaps, that there are actually more programmes being broadcast in the same number of hours than was the case a year or two ago. Formerly, inadequate staffing and restricted financial resources sometimes made it necessary to spread material over longer periods than the material actually justified. With increased staff and some improvement in the financial situation, the time is used much more economically, in an artistic sense, and items get no more time than they can competitively secure. At the same time, broadcasters have been given somewhat improved conditions for their work, including in many instances higher fees, and in certain directions we have found it possible to draw on higher grades of artists and to stimulate new talent more effectively by more numerous and better-rewarded competitions.

The news service is another section which has been enriched with additional resources, and has profited thereby. The sources of international news satisfactorily covered and adequately checked have been increased, and this advance and others have made our news bulletins notably efficient.

I should now like to turn to the broader aspects of broadcasting. When I brought the last Broadcasting Estimate before the House, I said that one of our main problems was insufficiency and unsuitability of accommodation. The broadcasting studios are situated in a corner of the G.P.O. building, in makeshift studios which were not designed for broadcasting purposes. The space it is occupying is at the same time making most serious inroads on the accommodation needed for its primary purpose of catering for the multifarious post office activities. A new broadcasting house is an essential thing, but as I mentioned before that must be a long-term solution because of the magnitude of the job and its cost. To give some relief to broadcasting, however, it has been found necessary to encroach further into the G.P.O. building and plans have been made to provide some small additional studio space there. This is not, of course, a solution to the broadcasting studio question, but it is the best that can be done for the present. A second small hall is being provided at Portobello Bridge for the performance of works by the light orchestra and it is hoped that it will shortly be ready for regular broadcasts.

A further important matter I referred to in my first Estimate was the need for a second programme independent of that radiated from the transmitters at Athlone, Dublin and Cork, in order that we might be in a position broadly to separate the heavier from the lighter type of programme. I said that as well as accommodation this involved wavelengths and money. Since last year's Estimate, the delegation we sent to the European Broadcasting Conference at Copenhagen returned, having succeeded in obtaining a wavelength additional to the main Athlone wavelength on which a second programme could be transmitted. Though the power authorised for the extra wavelength is less than that for Athlone, the obtaining of a second main wavelength was a distinct achievement, in view of the pressure by the Nations of Europe for wavelength accommodation. Seven nations declined to sign the Copenhagen Convention and Plan because of dissatisfaction with the wavelengths allotted to them. There are many complicated technical problems connected with the utilisation of the second wavelength to the best advantage and of course heavy expenditure would be involved in providing a new transmitter or perhaps transmitters and additional staffing organisation. The difficulty of providing suitable studio accommodation for the needs of a second programme also remains still. I cannot, therefore, say more on this matter of a second programme than to tell the House that it is our ambition to have such a programme when conditions make it feasible, and that the problem is being examined in all its aspects.

While these problems, such as accommodation, persist, listeners cannot expect such perfectly produced programmes as it is possible to give from broadcasting organisations which have studios and equipment of the most up-to-date design. I hope that people who are inclined to complain about the technical quality of our programmes will reflect on the severe handicaps under which the director is operating.

When I spoke 12 months ago on this Estimate I said that I believed in giving the broadcasting staffs the widest possible measure of freedom to do their job in the way they thought it could best be done. These officers were selected for their particular posts because of their expert qualifications and it appeared to me that the less interference there was with them in their day-to-day work the better it would be for the broadcasting programmes. I also said that I thought it would be a good thing if talks and discussions were permitted more freely on matters with an element of controversy. I still hold these views. The broadcasting programme officers have availed themselves of the freedom which I said they should have in their work and many matters of live interest were discussed before the microphone during the year which would have been frowned upon in the past. Controversial talks cause irritation—there would be no element of controversy if everybody were satisfied with what had been said—but I think, on the whole, it is better to risk irritation and have live subjects of discussion than to play entirely for safety at the expense of interest.

The House will expect me to refer to the question of the shortwave station. I said last year that we had financial commitments which we considered more important than shortwave broadcasting and that during that year at least it was better to concentrate on trying to improve the lot of our people. Another important consideration was the availability, for use by the station, of wavelengths which are suitable for the service and are also free from jamming or interference by other radio stations.

Actually we have wavelengths registered which we are entitled to use immediately, but the international agreement under which they are registered is one that was entered into before the recent world war and at present the actual position of the short-wave broadcasting wavelengths is chaotic. However, we now have some reasons to believe that we would be able, by making agreements with a few countries, to obtain the use of some reasonably good wavelengths, which might enable us to give a satisfactory service, particularly to North America, between now and 1951, in which year it is hoped that a new and satisfactory world-wide plan will be brought into force. There are many difficult questions, financial, technical, accommodation and on the programme side, involved in any scheme for short-wave broadcasting. These are being examined, but no proposals for expenditure this year, other than that required to keep the station in good order, are included in the Estimate.

I have referred to the new short-wave broadcasting wavelength plan that it is hoped will come into force in 1951. A world-wide conference to draw up this new plan was held in Mexico City, starting last autumn and finishing some months ago. I said last year that if the station were still in existence in the autumn of that year, we would send a delegation to this Mexico City Conference. We did send a representative to Mexico City and he has only recently returned. An agreement was drawn up there and a plan adopted— or I should say the basis of a plan. Ireland is included in this basic plan for some wavelength accommodation. The whole plan has highly technical considerations but I shall try to explained the position to the House in the layman's language in which it was explained to me. The same set of wavelengths is not suitable for broadcasting from a station to a particular world area for the whole year and the requirements also differ from year to year. This is because of the effect of sun-spot activity on wireless waves. The basic plan gave to the various countries a certain number of channels in which to broadcast during stated hours to the various points and it also fixed the frequencies suitable for one particular period.

To complete the plan it will be necessary to allot frequencies which will be suitable for five other periods up to 1952. This task will be undertaken by a committee in Paris and the allocation for a complete plan will come before the World Shortwave Conference fixed for Italy in October, 1949. No country is bound by the basic plan until a complete plan has been formulated and accepted. I should say here that while the basic plan and agreement were signed on behalf of 50 nations at the Mexico City Conference the United States and the U.S.S.R. were among the 18 nations which did not sign. It is not expected that the Mexico City plan, if completed and approved in Italy, can come into operation until about the middle of 1951.

In view of the developments since this time last year it has recently been decided to begin short-wave broadcast transmissions to the U.S.A. and Canada as soon as it is practicable to do so. For a beginning it will be possible only to provide a short programme daily consisting mainly of news and news talks. It is not possible to say at this stage when these transmissions will begin but it is hoped it will be in a few months' time. Nothing beyond this purely emergency type of programme of short duration can be undertaken until the service has got equipment, studio accommodation and staff organisation of a kind essential for modern broadcasting. It will probably be necessary to introduce a Supplementary Estimate to cover the expenditure to be incurred during the present financial year because, as I said already, the only money for the short-wave station provided in this Estimate is a small sum sufficient to keep the station in good order.

Before I close I wish to thank the members of the Broadcasting Advisory Committee for the work they are doing for broadcasting in coming in a voluntary capacity to the station for monthly meetings—as well as for sub-committee meetings in between—to give the service the benefit of their cultural, educational and entertainment experience, in suggesting policy for programmes. I also would like to express my appreciation of the work of the director and his staff. Only a person in official touch with Radio Éireann can realise the day-to-day problems that confront the staff of a small broadcasting organisation with restricted resources. The programme must start over the air on level terms with those of the best equipped stations, as listeners obviously have no opportunity or disposition to go behind the microphone to see the circumstances in which a particular programme has to be provided. To the listener the programme is just good or poor, and the conditions which produce the result are no real concern of his. That many of the Radio Éireann programmes are placed in the good category is due in no small part to the diligence of the director and the programme staffs in making the best of moderate resources. I thank them for their untiring work during the year.

I move:—

That the Estimate be referred back.

The Minister referred to the principle which was in operation formerly that as much freedom as possible should be given to those who are carrying on the work of the radio. That does not mean that there should not be criticism when the radio is used for political purposes. I have had several complaints from various people through the year of the use which has been made of the radio for political purposes and, in particular, for advertising the wares, if you like to put it that way, of certain Ministers, particularly the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Apparently, at one period, every move he made and every time he appeared here, there and everywhere, he was picked out specially for broadcasts. There were complaints also that in regard to debates and so on the whole atmosphere was one-sided. Perhaps the most remarkable thing was that last night on the radio there was not a word about the division that took place in this House. The Minister cannot get away on the ground that that was a freedom which should be exercised and that it is a kind of criticism which should not be made. It was a single fact and could easily have been broadcast within the time.

Was the Deputy not listening last night to it?

It was not given out on the radio.

In this House I listened to the announcement.

I have been informed by several people that it was not given out.

A Tipperary man informed me that it was given out.

And Deputy Little was mentioned as the man who referred it back.

It made no mention of the fact that the Taoiseach adjourned the House until this morning to consider the situation.

It did, yes.

One of the difficulties in this House, of course, is that one cannot listen at the time one would like to listen in and, therefore, one cannot have such accurate observation of the station as one would like. I have only said what I heard and if I am misrepresenting the facts I would be the first to correct it.

The exact statement made last night on the Radio was that the motion of Deputy Little to refer back the Estimate was carried. It made no further reference to the significance of the fact or to the fact that the Taoiseach had adjourned the House.

Were the figures given?

It was smothered.

It is a source of great satisfaction to us to know that the staff are now carrying on vigorously the development of the short-wave station. The great regret is that there ever should have been any interruption in the work on that matter. It was sheer national sabotage. The reactions all over the world of the Irish race, which conveyed themselves through the medium of people in all parts of Ireland, were so strong as ultimately to have the effect of bringing the Government to their senses and the work has been taken on again. It is very reassuring to know that the services of our very expert negotiators have been effective, in what I know to be a very difficult international situation, both in Mexico with regard to the short-wave and in Copenhagen with regard to the second wavelength.

Hear, hear.

The only thing is that I do hope that when it is brought into force it will not be used for political purposes, that when the news is sent out it will be rigidly of a national nature and will not in any sense be used for any political purpose. It is a poor commentary on what might be done with a news service if we are to judge by some of the things that have happened in the past.

The development of the short-wave station and of the second wave length brings us to the question of proper premises. The present position is absolutely absurd both from the point of view of the post office and of radio. It is absurd to have all these people cribbed, cabined and confined in the top of the General Post Office in premises which should properly be used for the post office. It is doing a lot of damage to the post office as well as to the station. On the other hand, it is extraordinary how the staff is able to carry on in the space they have there. The premises at Ardmore, where there is a considerable amount of ground around a fine big house as a centre, were purchased a number of years ago for a station. That was done after the Government of the time had seen our experts from the architectural and broadcasting points of view. An architect and an engineer were sent to Northern Europe to see all the good stations there. Our plans were to go ahead as soon as we could with the building of a station with proper studios in the Ardmore premises on the Stillorgan Road. That project has been held up. It was part of the sabotage policy of the present Government when they shut down on that and shut down on the concert hall, which would have provided ample space for conferences and a magnificent concert hall which would put us on the map in the place that a civilised Irish nation should take in all these matters. These things are in abeyance. Perhaps if we are sufficiently vocal in making a row about them, we may induce the members of the Government who have wider views on these things, who realise the significance of our place amongst the nations, to bring about a change of attitude on the part of the Government.

Again I want to emphasis what I said on the Vote for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, that the excuse that first attention must be paid to housing and that the housing of the poor prevents us from doing anything else, is an old excuse that has been used since the Government came in. Housing should not interfere with the development of a service which is no mere luxury. Upon this service depends the building up of our cultural activities. The radio should be a reflection of the very best in our cultural traditions and our ability to enlarge and improve our cultural capacities. It is the shop window to the world but, above all, it is the closest link we can have with the Irish race all over the world. In many places from Boston to Glasgow you find people cherishing our songs and céilidhe dances with even greater intensity than we do at home. One of the closest bonds we have is the cultural bond and it is no mere luxury to develop that. Also, it is the best means we have of increasing our tourist traffic, which is the biggest export commodity we have. It is dollar earning and it is bigger than the cattle trade that we hear so much talk about.

That you destroyed.

It has been put in the last year at £35,000,000.

It is going to be destroyed now.

No fear.

We should concentrate on it as one of the things that are essention to the nation. There are people who complain that the standards that have been set in our classical concerts were too high, that we were too severe in the selection. The one thing that could kill us would be mediocrity, simply turning the station into a sort of outdoor relief. We must, if we go in for that at all, go in for a standard that will be respected by all the nations and we must insist upon examinations which will get those standards.

There was a question asked the other day about bringing in foreign conductors. We cannot hope to build up that standard immediately amongst our own conductors. I do believe that if we get a little time—it will take some years—we shall get as good conductors and composers as there are to be got anywhere else. There is a statue of a man in Leinster Lawn who was the founder, not merely of Irish music but of British music, Sir Robert Stewart, the man who taught this generation in England both composition and conducting. We have it in us to do that sort of thing again but, until we have created the atmosphere by bringing in foreigners, we cannot expect to build the greatness which is in us and always has been as a musical country.

How could we ever hope to be a musical country if you bring in foreigners?

We have not persons of that quality at present and we must bring in people from outside to train our younger generation, to accustom them to the very best, and in due time they will come along. It is not through any lack of searching in this country for composers or conductors that we have not got them. Everyone who wanted a chance had a fair trial on the radio. That is still being done and I hope it will continue, because we do want to build up our own people into first-class musicians. But, apart from that, there will always be a certain amount of interchange, because you will get men of world reputation, such as Toscanini and John Barbirolli and people of that type, who will have the effect of stimulating home talent. I believe the ambition we have is still in the radio station, and that ambition is to build up a real profession of first class musicians.

Is there not the danger that you will have too many foreigners?

Not necessarily.

Are we not moving in that direction?

No, we are not. The door is open for talented Irishmen all the time, but they must come up and there must be no excuse for bad playing or mediocrity. The Minister recently gave an interview to the Press in which he referred to educational programmes. I wish he told us about these in his opening statement, because there is no doubt that there is a tremendous amount to be done in that direction. I do not know how far he has got the Department of Education to co-operate in establishing a certain high standard of Irish for all the schools. It was a matter we were very keen and enthusiastic about, because we believed it would help to create a standard language for the country if you had first-class Irish teachers broadcasting from a headquarters to all the schools in Ireland. It would allow for a uniform pronunciation of the national language while it would not interfere with the different dialects. It is a difficult subject and one about which people can get cross—that is, the merits of the various dialects. Our aim was to do for Ireland what is being done in Germany through a standard language, Buehnesprache, which happens to be the State language. Over large portions of Germany with different dialects they have one language which everybody speaks.

The Minister then mentioned about other educational programmes and about persons getting educated over the radio. That is a very important item and it should be given attention— to give people who have no opportunity of going to schools and universities a chance of getting the best there is, especially from the Irish point of view.

I asked a question about using the short wave for radio telegraph and telephone work. I suggest that the Department should examine that further. I was informed by a man with considerable experience abroad that there is a good deal of money in radio telegraph and telephone work and it would be very valuable, especially if we are trying to knit up our associations with our people in America and elsewhere and give them an opportunity of closer communication.

We have seen from the increase in our mail service, because of the introduction of the air mail, what a desperate mistake we made in not having our own air service to America, where we would have a channel of communication that does not spread out over Europe until it reaches the Shannon. We should do everything in our power to develop this aspect in order to have closer communications with our people, especially in the United States, but it can also be done elsewhere. However, I bow to the expert knowledge and energy of our engineers in the Department. I merely ask them to give serious attention to the matter and see if it would not be possible to develop this branch, even if it means considerable expense.

I wonder how the agricultural topics are going on the radio and whether you have been able to develop them. I know the difficulties that are there. It is difficult to get a farmer who is a good broadcaster and good broadcasters are generally not farmers. This matter, however, should receive care and attention. Some of the broadcasts were excellent and they should be developed.

With regard to the interference that has been complained of, has it occurred to the Department that the co-operation of the Electricity Supply Board should be obtained? When they are putting in various gadgets, such as heaters and cookers, they should insist upon apparatus being put in which will prevent interference. The Minister said it was not costly and in those circumstances I do not think anybody would object if the Electricity Supply Board explained that the Government required that these things should be installed. Very often it is impossible to know whether you are interfering with anybody else or not. People will not think of putting these things in and then when coercion has to be used they resent it. For that reason I suggest the co-operation of the Electricity Supply Board should be sought. It is a very trying thing to purchase an expensive radio and then find that because of interference it is of little use.

There was an area in Wexford where there was always a considerable amount of trouble. The late Deputy Corish used to refer to it. I do not know whether the Wexford situation has been cured. I think it was due largely to a geographical configuration or something of that sort. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us about it.

I am glad to see there is a considerable profit this year. I think the figures show that the expenditure was £218,000 and the revenue was £250,000, and that did not include the value of services given to other Departments. This, again, raises a question similar to the one I raised on the Vote for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. There is not a clear picture, and it must amount to a big figure, which would help to increase the profits. We always seem to have controversy with the Department of Finance as to whether we were entitled to the customs duty on imported sets. When the then Minister for Finance imposed a tax on imported sets he said the money would be devoted to the radio. It was an outstanding book-keeping quarrel with the Department of Finance. I always found it desirable to mention that there is that money constantly coming in and it should be taken into consideration. The reason I do that is because the work of the broadcasting station is so tremendously important that it should have as much scope as is reasonable of spending as much money as possible. The primary consideration should not be one of expense but rather the service that is given to the nation as a whole.

I do not think there is any other matter that I want to raise. I do not think there is any reason to feel discouraged at the way in which the Department is carrying out all the plans which were laid originally. The only plea I would make is that the Minister should adopt as vigorous an attitude as possible in getting the radio station, particularly the short-wave station, into operation as rapidly as possible.

Tá an radio anthábhachtach ó thaobh cultúir agus oideachais na tíre. Má támuid chun fuinneóg, mar adubhradh inniú, a dhéanamh den radio trína dtaispeánfaimíd ár gcultúr agus ár saoidheacht féin do naisiúin eile an domhain, caithfimid féachaint chuige go ndéanfar go maith é.

Dhféadfaí a lán a dhéanamh ar son na Gaeilge tríd an radio. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil an caighdeán i labhairt na Gaeilge ar an radio chomh-tábhachtach beagnach leis an méid den Ghaeilge a labhartar ann agus an méid ama a tugtar di. Ba chóir go mbeadh labhairt na Gaeilge go soiléir, blasta, cruinn agus furust le tuiscint chun go bhfuighidh an lucht éisteachta taithneamh aisti. I gcúrsaí oideachais agus i gcúrsaí na teangan, cuirtear spéis faoi leith sna fuaimenna agus san fóghraíocht, mar is cheart. Ba chóir dúinn aire faoi leith a thabhairt don taobh seo den obair mar gheall ar an lucht éisteachta, chun go gcloisfidh an t-aos óg an Ghaeilge is fearr agus go bhfeabhsóchaidh siad a gcuid Ghaeilge féin.

Ansin, mar gheall ar an méid Ghaeilge a fógraítear ar an radio, ba chóir na fógraí ar fad, más féidir, a chur amach sa Ghaeilge agus rudaí tábhachtacha a cuirtear amach tríd an mBéarla faoi láthair a fhoillsiú sa Ghaeilge anois agus arís. Chím go ndéantear na rudaí is tábhachtaí dar leis an Rialtas d'fhoillsiú tríd an mBéarla agus, uaireannta, ní tugtar amach ach na rudaí is lua tábhacht sa Ghaeilge. D'fhéadfaí eachtra agus cúrsaí na Roinne Gnóthaí Eachtranacha d'fhógairt trí Ghaeilge, cur i gcás, chómh maith le Béarla. Is ionadh liom go mbeadhmáid sásta an dara háit a thabhairt don Ghaeilge faoi Phoblacht na hEireann. Ní fheicim aon athrú ó thaobh dlí. An bhfuilmíd le tuiscint go bhfuilimíd ag glacadh le Poblacht, ní amháin go bhfuil cuid di scaraithe amach uainn, ach gan aon teanga náisiúnta a bheith aici?

Ba chóir drámaí agus claisceadail ón dtuath a chur ar an radio níos minice le taispeáint do mhuintir na tuaithe go bhféadfaí rudaí a bhaineas leo féin agus atá go dúchasach a craobhscaoileadh. Ní bheidh an caighdeán chómh hárd b'fhéidir agus atá sé sna bailte, ach, i dtíortha eile, déantar iarracht chun cúrsaí na tuaithe a chur ar an radio agus suim na ndaoine i gcoitinne a mhúscailt sna cúrsaí sin. Ba chóir fuireann aisteoirí, lán nó páirt aimsire, bheith ann, is dóigh liom. Tá cainteoirí oilte ag teastáil gan aimhreas agus daoine le guthanna maithe acu. Is dócha gur deachair daoine le Gaeilge mhaith agus guthanna maithe d'fháil don radio, ach creidim féin go gcaithfidh go bhfuil a lán de sna céimithe óga ón Ollscoil ann agus daoine eile mar iad go bhfuil árd oideachas orthú atá i ndon ní amháin an Ghaeilge a labhairt go maith ach cur síos tuisceannach suimiúl a dhéanamh ar chúrsaí tríd an Ghaeilge.

Ba chóir drámaí maithe a craobhscaoileadh uair sa tseachtain agus, mura bhfuil na drámaí ann cheanna féin a bheadh oiriúnach, d'fhéadfaí an tán nó cuid de shean-scéalta eile na hEireann, nó cúrsaí staire na hEireann, a dhéanamh i bhfuirm drámaí. D'fhéadfaí na leabhra is fearr atá againn sa Ghaeilge a craobhscaoileadh freisin trí agallaimh agus drámaíocht, cur i gcás, leabhra Shean-Phádraic Uí Chonaire agus Shéamais agus Seosaimh Mac Grianna. Ní leor na piosaí Gaeilge a léamh amach—caithfear iad a thabhairt do dhaoine óga cáillithe a bheadh i ndon scripts maithe a dhéanamh díobh ionus go mbeadh beócht agus taithneamh ionta ar an radio.

Ba chóir Trath na gCeist a dhéanamh sa Ghaeilge chómh maith le sa Bhéarla, ní amháin faoin dtuath ach sna cathracha agus sna bailte móra, chun na daoine óga a chuireas suim sa Ghaeilge a ghríosú agus a spreagadh san obair. Tá mé cinnte go bhféadfadh an radio a lán cúnaimh d'fháil chun é sin a dhéanamh ó na múinteóirí óga agus ó na céimithe óga ar fud na tíre. D'fhéadfaí an pobal a dhéanamh páirteach in obair na Gaeilge ar an radio sa tslí sin agus ba mhór an dul chun cinn é don Ghaeilge féin. Má chíonn na daoine go bhfuil suim ag lucht an radio, ag na hAirí agus ag lucht an Rialtais sa Ghaeilge, is dóigh liom go mbeidh suim ag an bpobal inti dá réir, agus má fheiceann siad nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar an radio ach sa dára háit i gcónaí, ní féidir leis an bpobal bheith muiníneach go bhfuil an Rialtas agus an tAire i ndáirire faoin Ghaeilge a chur chun chinn. D'fhéadfaí diospóireachtaí agus cúrsaí an lae a chraobhscaoileadh trí Ghaeilge freisin agus rudaí a bhaineas le saol na tuatha, mar a dúirt mé, a chuireadh muintir an cheanntair atá i gceist, suim faoi leith iontu.

Mar gheall ar na cuirmeacha ceoil, is trua liom gur cuireadh deireadh leis na cuirmeacha ceoil poiblí. Ba chóir cláir na cuirmeacha ceoil do craobhscaoileadh agus d'fhoillsiú in sna páipéirí roimh ré, más féidir, agus bollscaireacht i bhfad níos fearr a dhéanamh faoi na cuspóirí atá i gceist ar an radio a chur in eolas do na daoine agus innseacht dóibh faoi na pleannana agus na cláir nua atá i gceist.

D'fhéadfaí bollscaireacht a dhéanamh faoi cúrsaí cuairteóireachta, áilneacht na tíre, stair ár dtíre agus na cúrsaí a bhaineas leis an tír a chuirfeadh cuairteóirí spéis ionta de ghnáth.

I want to congratulate the Minister on his statement. He has adopted a practical and progressive attitude towards this section of the Department. I consider that the references made by the late Minister, Deputy Little, were scandalous in so far as they suggested that the wireless is being used for political purposes. That suggestion probably arises from the fact that Deputy Little knows that the news items at present refer to many schemes of a progressive nature which have been announced over the radio. During his term of office there were not so many schemes of this character to be announced and we can appreciate the jealousy which he now displays and the attitude which he adopts towards such announcements. I can understand why he tried to describe these announcements as being political.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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