Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Dec 1949

Vol. 118 No. 12

Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (Continuance) Bill, 1949—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The matter before the Dáil is the Bill to continue for another year the Supplies and Services Act. Yesterday I queried the use made by the Government of the powers conferred upon them by that Act. While it may not be, in our view, desirable to withhold these powers from the Government or to oppose the enactment of this continuing Bill for another year, nevertheless our dissatisfaction with the use of the powers is such that we trust that by this time next year either many of the Orders made under the Act will have been repealed or the powers required by the Minister on a permanent basis will have been obtained under permanent legislation. So far as the public is aware, the power given by the Act to the Minister, the power to regulate the supplies and prices of commodities essential to the community, has been used or abused mainly in relation to foodstuffs. We are, therefore, obliged on this Bill to consider whether we must not express our dissatisfaction with the operation of price control and the continuation of rationing, as well as with the other manifestations of the Ministerial power contained in various Orders published during the year.

I mentioned yesterday that it is our view that it is highly unsatisfactory that the power of price control should continue to be exercised under emergency legislation; that the time has long since passed when a permanent Act to provide machinery for price control should have been submitted to the Dáil. Such a Bill was submitted in 1947 and passed Second Reading, but got no further. It was killed by the present Government and nothing has been done since. Although the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in reply to a parliamentary question, stated that it was his policy to apply official control, whenever necessary, to the price of essential materials, I assert that the record of the year has shown the policy of the Minister to be to abolish price control whenever it was obvious that higher prices would have to be sanctioned and to maintain it only where it was unnecessary— where prices are stable or falling. I instanced a number of commodities of a general character which have been released from Ministerial control in regard to price during the year, in each case as a prelude to an increase in price. Footwear, bacon, whiskey, biscuits, canned fish, and a number of other commodities increased in price immediately following the relinquishment of the power of control by the Minister, and I assert that the Minister relinquished his power of control and allowed the price to rise rather than take the responsibility for sanctioning an increase in price. The only Orders which were kept in existence were those which were of least importance because they related to commodities that were not likely to rise in price. Many of them were, in fact, falling in price.

I queried also the question of continuing rationing. I will not deal again with petrol. Every Deputy knows that petrol rationing is a farce, that there is not merely ample petrol to meet all the requirements of vehicle users, but that in fact the supply is so excessive that nobody has any difficulty in getting petrol with or without coupons, although probably everyone has enough coupons to purchase all the petrol he wants. I want to be told why an elaborate system of rationing is being kept in existence, with a number of officials checking and issuing coupons when there appears to be no obvious necessity for it.

The same applies in the case of bread. It has been suggested that the maintenance of bread rationing arises because of the decision of the Government to put on sale a lower extraction flour at a higher price than the subsidised supplies. It is, however, I think, in the knowledge of every Deputy that the existing distribution of subsidised flour whether to be sold as flour or bread, is ample. It does, in fact, represent a higher consumption per head of our population than the normal pre-war consumption. There is no necessity why bread rationing should be kept in existence, even if the Government desires to continue with its scheme of making a better quality bread or flour available at double the price to those who can afford to pay it. The rationing of bread could be abolished. Supplies of subsidised flour of 85 per cent. extraction could be made freely available. If the Government wanted to do it, they could also make the luxury flour available to the rich. There is no need, merely on that account, to continue rationing. Why is it being done, and why are traders being put to the inconvenience of observing rationing regulations and why is there being maintained in the Department of Industry and Commerce a large section to supervise a rationing scheme when there is no necessity for rationing?

In the case of tea, I want to know what quantity of tea is being sold off the ration under the Government scheme for releasing additional supplies at a higher price? I want to know if the saving on subsidy equals the administration cost of maintaining tea rationing in existence? There is no scarcity of tea. The Government can buy any quantity of tea it requires. The maintenance of rationing involves not merely all the administration costs, not merely inconvenience to traders and the public, but the perpetuation of the war time system of a uniform blend, whereas I am sure traders and consumers would welcome the restoration of free trade in tea which in pre-war days resulted in a variety of blends being available at varying prices from different firms. In fact, I have the feeling that if the rationing of tea was withdrawn, if free trade was restored and if the tea blenders were permitted to follow their normal pre-trade practice, it is not impossible, even without a subsidy, that some blends of tea could be available at lower than the present fixed price. I am not suggesting that the subsidy should be abolished. In fact, the Party that I represent may have lost the requisite number of seats that necessitated its transfer to this side of the House because we decided, before we left office, to increase the subsidy on tea, sugar and other commodities. It seems to me that the mere existence of the subsidy is little justification for maintaining in existence an elaborate tea rationing system when there is no need for it.

In the case of sugar, we know also that there is no scarcity. It is undoubtedly true that the subsidised price of sugar is lower than its production cost, but the effect of the deferential price system which the Government operates is to impose an unfair tax on the commercial users of sugar. The price for sugar which is being charged to jam manufacturers and confectioners of 7½d. per lb. represents a tax paid by them to the extent, perhaps of 1½d. per lb. on sugar for the benefit of the Exchequer, with the result that the people of this country have to pay higher prices than are justified for jam and other sugar confections. Deputies will have noticed that the Government of Great Britain attaches very considerable importance to its policy which it describes under the name of "fair shares." I want Deputies to pay particular attention to the fact that the differential price system which the Government is maintaining applies particularly to those commodities which are used in the main by poorer people. It is no defence of the Government's policy to assert that they are maintaining certain supplies of these commodities at subsidised prices and releasing additional supplies at double or higher prices. The dietetic surveys carried out make it clear that, if there is any inadequacy in the present rations, that inadequacy is felt most severely in the homes of the poor. I am quite certain that, for the middleclass and better-off families, the present ration of bread and the present ration of tea is more than ample, and that the obligation to pay the higher prices charged by the Government, in order to get additional supplies, is felt only in families where bread and tea form a considerable element in the diet.

I do not know what the position is concerning butter. We know that, in the early part of this year, the Minister for Agriculture boasted that before the year was over we would be exporting butter. Nobody pays a great deal of attention to his forecasts. We know that we have not been exporting butter. In fact, the quantity of butter disclosed as being held at present in cold store would not, on the face of it, appear to be adequate to maintain the existing ration over the winter. It may be that the Government have some expectation of getting additional supplies, or that winter production will be higher than normal. It may be that the position in respect of butter would not yet permit of the abolition of rationing. To the knowledge of every Deputy, however, there is a very active black market in butter at present. Those who are prepared to pay the black market price can get supplies of creamery butter, even by the box. That would seem to suggest that the enforcement of the rationing regulations is very lax. I know that Government policy is designed to discourage the activities of its inspectors and that Ministers' speeches were intended to have that result. But if they are not going to take steps to abolish the black market there is in butter—the very active black market that exists in butter—then I think the farce of maintaining a rationing scheme should be ended.

We were told also that one of the reasons why it is necessary to retain this Act in operation is the need for maintaining building control. I explained briefly yesterday the policy followed in regard to the operation of the building control system inaugurated in 1946 in the earlier months of its existence. By the end of 1947, however, that control had been tightened so as to confine the issue of building licences to houses built by local authorities or of a size to which the subsidy provision of the Housing Acts applied. At that time, however, there was a scarcity of building materials and the control was considered necessary because of that scarcity. There were, in fact, further regulations in force concerning the sale and use of many materials used in building. Since then, these scarcities have ended. There is no longer any necessity to maintain the building control system in operation because of a scarcity of materials.

The Parliamentary Secretary told us there is still a scarcity of skilled labour and it is necessary, therefore, that we should face the fact frankly and realistically that this control is in operation for one purpose only, and that is to ensure that private building operators will not attract from local authorities or builders engaged in the production of subsidy-type houses the workers at present engaged in these activities by offering them higher wages. That may be a good or a bad policy. My main complaint is that there does not appear to be any policy because, while in theory control is being maintained in order to prevent workers from being attracted by higher wages from working for local authority contractors, there is, in fact, little or no restriction upon the issue of licences, and licences have been issued in such abundance that the very problem the control scheme was designed to prevent does, in fact, exist.

There are a number of reasons why it appears to be necessary that the Supplies and Services Act should be continued. We recognise that Government powers to regulate foreign exchange, for example, exist under this Act. There is no reason why these powers should not be transferred into permanent legislation, because we may as well face the fact that they are likely to be required for a good period ahead. But are we to assume, from the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary in justification of the continuance of rationing, that we are to suffer rationing of commodities that are not scarce so long as the Government think it necessary to pursue a policy of subsidisation?

This is the only country in the world that is now rationing bread. During the war it was the only country in which bread was not rationed. It is an anomalous situation that here, four years after the end of the war, we should be subjected to restrictions that were not necessary when the war was on. If there is to be, as there must be, a decision to maintain the policy of food price subsidisation for some time ahead, or until stability has been restored to the general price situation, then there is an obligation on us to devise a method of doing so that does not involve at the same time the administrative cost and the public inconvenience of rationing. It can be done. It was done. The price of bread was subsidised all during the war without a rationing scheme.

There is no difficulty in operating a subsidy arrangement in relation to flour or tea or sugar or in relation to butter. Some of these commodities were in the past subsidised without rationing. The only justification for the present system ever offered by the Government is a financial one. There was a desire to minimise the cost of food subsidies by restricting their area of operation. I doubt if the saving in cost is as substantial as is represented. I doubt very much if the ending of bread rationing would increase by 5 per cent. the consumption of the 85 per cent. extraction flour. I doubt very much if the withdrawal of the other rationing schemes would involve a very substantial increase, or any increase in some cases, of public consumption of them. Every grocer in the country will tell you that even in the case of butter there are many customers who do not take their full ration and, consequently, there are supplies over and above the permitted ration available for other customers.

That is a situation which is obviously undesirable, a situation which should be the concern of the Government to end as soon as possible. While we agree to the continuation of these powers by the Government for another year, it must be quite clear that the Government is expected during that time to take the necessary steps to get rid of them.

There is one aspect of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech that I think deserves the special attention of the House—I should say the special attention and examination of the House—before this debate concludes. That is where he referred to the necessity for certain controls in the building trade so as to ensure that an adequate supply of skilled labour will be available for the building of local authority and subsidy houses or, in other words, houses erected under the Housing Acts. Recently very desirable and commendable efforts have been made to induce the skilled workers on the other side to come over here to meet the situation that has arisen. I say they are commendable and desirable steps, but how far that will meet the situation here no one seems to be in a position to assess. There is a divided opinion as to the number of these workers who are on the other side and to the extent that it would be possible to induce them to come over and give their help here, if it can be managed, it will be all to the good.

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that there is a local problem, one that we might address ourselves to now in order to get a satisfactory solution of it. It is: are we having the best disposition of the labour personnel available at the present time, so far as our local authority houses and our subsidy houses are concerned? From a very rough estimate I have made it would appear that there are on the books of the trade unions in this city some 9,500 skilled workers. Of that number there are engaged under the Dublin Corporation some 2,000. Assuming an equal number are engaged on the subsidy houses—that is, 3,600—and allowing for a fair proportion of those who would extend into the county, you get a total skilled figure of 4,000.

It is pretty fair to ask then: where is the balance, the 5,500? They are on the books of the trade unions in the city and the answer may be found in the fact that there are other priorities besides the local authority and the subsidy houses. There is the erection of factories, which are very important from the point of view of the Government and the country as a whole. There is also the question of hospitals and of schools, which might be regarded as having an urgent priority.

On the figures I have given we get a picture of roughly 48 per cent. engaged in subsidy and local authority housing as against 58 per cent. engaged in housing for all other purposes. There is then a situation which calls for examination. This particular problem has been engaging the attention of the Department and I am anxious to know from the Parliamentary Secretary as to how far the Department has gone in the direction of examining into the position. The skilled workers are there. Is the number engaged in nonlocal authority and non-subsidy housing disproportionate? I suggest it is. To what extent is the Department checking the licences for those engaged in such housing? That is an important question. Has the Department yet reached a point where it is in a position to schedule a proportion to the more urgent categories, local authorities being number one, subsidy houses number two, and the others in the order I have mentioned. I suggest that we should have an answer to that question as quickly as possible. As soon as we get that answer we shall see an immediate improvement in relation to the output of local authority houses. So far as Dublin is concerned, I am glad to say that there has been a sustained improvement since March last in the numbers of skilled workers coming over to the Dublin Corporation. The position is not, perhaps, as satisfactory as one would like, but I think it is significant. I want to pay a special tribute to one particular trade union which actually appealed by public advertisement over the names of the president and secretary to their members to turn their labour to municipal houses.

On the question of houses generally, is there a continuing supervision of prices? The price level to-day is about 300 per cent. above the level of 1939 so far as housing costs are concerned. The increase in the cost of labour is easily ascertainable as against 1939. At the moment it is about 70 per cent. greater than the 1939 level. Where, then, does the balance of the increased costs come in? I suggest that the increase is largely due to the builders' providers. I do not know exactly how the Prices Commission operates, but I take it that they only take action when a complaint is made to them. If a complaint has to be made against the builders' providers, obviously it should come from the speculative builder. My experience of that particular line of building operatives is that they take the materials at the invoice price. Perhaps there is good reason for that, since the speculative builder can pass on the increased prices to his customer. I would like to know if the Prices Commission has ever examined into the range of services in relation to housing, from timber right down? Are they satisfied that costs are reasonable? That is an important question. There are numbers of young men at the present time who have very heavy commitments placed upon them in connection with the purchase of houses. There is a certain amount of mystery about the position. I think it would be in the interests of the builders' providers themselves that a list of the main items should be scheduled over an authoritative statement from the Department that the prices scheduled are reasonable and that no undue profit is being taken.

The position with regard to skilled labour needs clarification. I may say that it is even puzzling the trade unions at the moment, particularly those interested in municipal housing. There is a problem to be solved in relation to the supply of skilled labour available.

I gathered from the interjection of Deputy Lehane when Deputy Lemass was speaking that he does not accept the position as set out during 1947-48 in so far as licences are concerned in connection with local authorities. I think it is only fair to the Department to say that during the latter part of 1946 and during 1947 no local authority, and certainly not the Dublin Corporation, suffered in any way any restriction so far as supplies were concerned. I have personal knowledge of what the position was.

I would like to bring to the Parliamentary Secretary's attention a particular matter which does not seem so far to have called for any action from the Department. It is a matter of grave public import. I refer to licences for that type of work with a ceiling of £500 which seems to go scot-free under the regulations. There is an allegation that advantage is taken of that particular scheme to develop a series of works beginning at £500, going into another £500 and so on, thereby evading departmental regulations. I would like to know if there has been any examination into that at any point. I would also like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether the prices of building materials have recently come under review in the Department of Industry and Commerce.

One would think that four years after war has ended rationing would have finished. Instead of that, we have established in the country at the moment a Government racketeering bureau with the Minister for Industry and Commerce as the prince of black marketeers.

On a point of order. The Deputy has referred to the Minister for Industry and Commerce as being "the prince of black marketeers." I want to know if it is in order to use that term in relation to the Minister.

Such an expression towards a Deputy of this House is not in order and should not be used.

Very well, Sir; I withdraw it. However, I believe that this House is able to judge the particular name that they should put on the Government—and I had expected to hear from Deputy M. O'Sullivan, when he was speaking, some reference to the item that I intend to mention. First, I shall deal with sugar. The Parliamentary Secretary has told us that the rationing of sugar is to continue. I should like to know the reason why that is to be the case, considering that we read in the public Press that hundreds of tons of sugar have been sent over to Britain, in parcels and otherwise, during the past 12 months at a black market price, charged by the Government, of 7½d. a lb. The economic price for the production of sugar in this country is 6?d. Farmers, particularly those engaged in the production of beet, had a recommendation sent last year by the sugar company to the Department for an increase of somewhere between 4/6 and 5/- a ton on beet. That, however, was refused because it would reduce the amount of the haul that the Government were making on this uncontrolled sugar.

In reply to a parliamentary question put by me some months ago, the Minister for Industry and Commerce then admitted that he had got, out of this 7½d. sugar, £380,000. From whom was that money taken? We know, those of us who are familiar with the poor, that jam forms a very—I might say a compulsory—portion of the budget in each workman's home, where they cannot afford to buy butter for all, or where they find that the butter ration is not sufficient. But you have an extra price put on the jam in order that this black marketing might continue. The farmer who has to bring in extra help to save his harvest found himself again compelled to buy black-market sugar for them and to pay the Government a backhand of 12/10 a cwt. on every cwt. of sugar he bought. I know that I will be met with the talk of £23 an acre profit for beet, as shown, but that is without taking into account interest on capital or supervision and without taking into account the burden that has been placed on the farming community since those costings were taken two years ago. Anybody who will study the costings and the figures will find that two items alone, rates and wages, absorb £11 per acre of that profit. I can see no justification for that, considering that the Government's action in this respect has reduced the acreage of beet by some 18,000 acres in two years. I admit that, with a definite determination to go into a grass policy, there are more ways of killing a dog than by choking him with butter, as the fellow said long ago, and that this is considered a very good way of putting beet up the spout, as the Minister for Agriculture declared here recently. That is what is happening—and you could have produced in this country to-day sufficient sugar to supply all our population and all our needs without any rationing, if the Government acted in any way fairly in this matter.

What did you do about it?

Mind the tomatoes, you. James put a finish very quickly on them for you. I am sure your clients are very grateful to the Government you are keeping in.

Tell us what you did.

Do not mind that, you. Then come to the question of flour. How any ordinary representative of labour in this country—I do not mind so much the representatives of town labour because we know that, as a rule, there was always, even in the tightest rationing, bread and flour in the town —puts up with this condition of affairs, I am at a loss to understand. The ordinary workman who is out doing a morning's work, milking cows and feeding cattle and so forth, comes in and finds himself confined to the ration of bread that he is allowed by this Government every day. How any body of men can justify rationing of bread and, at the same time, the sale of white bread in unlimited quantities to the rich in this country beats me—and that is exactly the condition of affairs.

Two days after the Ministerial announcements as regards white flour we had, in my constituency—and considering this talk about no more inspectors it was rather laughable—five inspectors or, as the Minister very kindly called them, "pip squeaks", going from shop to shop and from bakery to bakery in the town of Cobh examining books, looking up what quantity of bread went out according to the coupons and so forth. They went from door to door and from shop to shop in an endeavour to force people, whether they like it or not, to buy unsubsidised white flour. That has continued and, as I say, I can see no justification for, on the one hand, having to ration bread and on the other hand, having a free sale of white bread for those who can afford to pay an exorbitant price for it.

The economic price.

You could grow sufficient wheat in this country to supply the needs of the population but the policy of the Minister for Agriculture is to grow grass and more grass.

There was more wheat produced this year than ever before.

Because you have a good Minister for Agriculture.

Because you have a gentleman like the Deputy to represent or misrepresent a tillage county coming in here with this kind of talk: "We have more wheat." We have not.

There was more wheat produced this year than ever was grown under the Fianna Fáil Administration.

The Deputy will try to conduct himself. Surely a professional gentleman such as he should have learned to conduct himself by now.

He does not know wheat from oats.

I have no straw in my mouth anyway.

You had this year, due to the favourable season, an extraordinary yield in wheat.

And a good Minister.

A Minister who brought in £1,000,000 worth of unwanted foreign barley to ruin the farmers.

Agricultural policy does not arise on this Bill.

I regret I have to answer these interruptions.

The Deputy need not.

Surely we might take a leaf from the policy of our enemy across the water in the line of saving dollars that have to be sent out of the country for the importation of foreign wheat. Up to this year there was a better price paid to the farmer in this country for wheat than in Britain. Now that position is reversed because the farmer in England, in addition to getting grants for ploughing and all the rest of it, is getting 70/- for wheat and, therefore, there is an increased acreage of wheat over there. In consequence there are less dollars leaving the country and more money left at home amongst the agricultural community. That is a line that could be well followed here. To get back to the subject which we were discussing, I can see no justification for the rationing of bread in this country to-day. I want to see that rationing come to an end. I cannot understand how any Government can justify a condition of affairs in which the ordinary working man is told: "You can only get so much bread; that is your ration" and at the same time the bureaucratic professional classes come along and get all the bread they want and with white flour, too. I suppose what comes out of the white flour is thrown along with the ration for the benefit of the ordinary poor. An unlimited supply of white flour is handed out to those people at a special price, practically double the price of the ordinary flour supplied to the poor. Anyone who knows anything of the conditions under which the poor live knows that the price of this flour is beyond their capacity. They cannot buy it. In order that Deputy O'Higgins might have white flour every morning, the ordinary worker has to be content with a ration of bread which is not sufficient for himself and his family. That is the position and how the Labour Deputies can sit there and keep a Government in office that carries on that kind of racketeering black market is a thing I cannot understand.

A Deputy

You never will.

These are two items in respect of which I definitely object to any further rationing. I say there is no justification for it. No case can be made in either instance except that the Government has become an administration on the old lines of the Bashibazouks of Turkey and are running a black market of their own.

There is one thing about the Fianna Fáil Deputies that I always admire. They are such believers in equality. They believe that the poor man and the rich man should be both equal and both entitled to starve. They very successfully practised that policy when they had power to deal with these matters. Deputy Corry and Deputy Lemass addressed themselves to the question of rationing and differential prices, but there is a far greater factor which is more basic so far as the ordinary people are concerned to which neither Deputy Lemass nor Deputy Corry addressed themselves when it was a question of life and death for our people and that is what is ultimately to determine the amount of food a working man eats and the amount of money he has got in his pocket. He had a good deal less of either of these in the years from 1940 to 1947.

A Deputy

Question.

That was due to the operation of Deputy Lemass's control of wages and his refusal over long periods to do anything about prices until ultimately we reached the position when we had a gap of nearly 50 points between the increase in wages and the increase in prices, despite the fact that when war broke out Deputy Lemass was urged that if he were going to control wages and salaries, at least he should take the ordinary common-sense precaution of seeing that the control of prices was equally effective. He neglected to do so, with the result that in so far as the national income of our country is concerned, those who make their living out of the sale and resale of goods managed to increase their share of the national income nearly three times. Any Deputy who wishes can examine the figures for himself. We are now starting to pick up a little of the lost ground and to-day the gap between salaries and wages and prices is not as big as it was. I would be much more impressed if Deputies on the Fianna Fáil benches, even at this late hour, would address themselves to the real question that faces us. Some Deputies suggest that we remove rationing off tea, bread and sugar and that we should also wipe out the differential in price. I certainly would be the last to object if that is going to secure to our own people a greater share of these particular things. Suppose, for argument's sake, we abolish the rationing of tea, bread and sugar and remove the differential in price, I wonder then would Deputy Corry come in here and support a measure to subsidise the price of bread so that the ordinary working people could buy it and pay the additional taxes? It is no use trying to have it both ways. Of course we could have all the sugar we want at Deputy Corry's price. Unfortunately, the price that he wants is a price that a great many people would be unable to pay. I agree that the basic thing is to secure that the mass of our people receive that minimum of basic foods which they require to maintain normal health and development. Why are we bothering about it at this late stage when, over a period of almost six years, the last thing that seemed to concern the Fianna Fáil Government was what food ordinary people were getting? Wages were held down in town and country and prices soared until a large number of our people were on the verge of suffering from disastrous malnutrition. Even Fianna Fáil realised in time that something should be done, and they did it a little later.

My concern with this Bill is something on the line which Deputy Lemass followed. I think it is time that we faced up to the position that in the present post-war world we are going to require price control in may ways as a permanent feature of our government. We require it from two aspects. One is that, so far as we may have continuing shortages of certain commodities, there must be some protection for the public against those who will exploit any shortage. Secondly, we have got the position peculiar to our own country that, with the system of protective tariffs, we must ensure that advantage is not taken of that protection to exploit the public.

I am quite aware that, through a review of customs import duties, tariffs etc. it is possible to exercise a certain amount of control of the prices charged for Irish manufactured articles enjoying that protection. The machinery, however, is too cumbersome, too slow and too involved. Above all, it is still suffering from the defect which many Deputies have pointed out repeatedly, that the public have no faith in price control machinery that operates in the dark and of which they only see the results. It is correct, as Deputy Lemass said and probably he knows it better than anybody else, that in present circumstances when you remove price control over an article the immediate result is an increase. It is equally true that during the past 18 months the variation in the cost-of-living index figure has been almost insignificant. So far as the labour and trade union movement is concerned, it has never accepted the cost-of-living index figure as being a true reflex of what it costs a working-class family to live. We have many tricks played with that figure. We are still in the unfortunate position that, although in 1946 we were told that an inquiry would be set up immediately to determine what would be a proper index figure based on Irish conditions, we are still waiting for that figure. We are operating to-day on a figure arrived at by an arbitrary process which it is admitted only includes 60 per cent. of the items previously taken into calculation. It makes a calculation in which seasonal differences are ironed out and in which many of the small but most essential commodities in a household are not taken into account. It also ignores such things as were formerly regarded as luxuries, but which in fact have become part of the necessaries of life by the development of people's tastes. So long as that figure is there, there will be disbelief in it and attempts to get around it.

We should face up to the fact that more effective action could be taken not merely to stabilise the cost of living, which, to a large extent, has been achieved, but to break that cost-of-living figure and start on a downward trend. Until that is achieved, if only by small degrees at a time, the danger is always near us of pressure being built up to try and meet that position by an increase of wages and salaries, with repercussions being shown in prices and the problem started all over again. It is useless to blame the working classes for their outlook. The Government in power in 1939 which allowed the spiral to start, and to be built up at a tremendous speed by the increase in prices, and which forcibly held down workers from getting any adjustment in salaries and wages, must accept the responsibility for the psychology they created. Until the Government of the day, whether the present Government or any other Government, takes upon itself by definite practical means the breaking down of that type of psychology, we are still going to have that danger facing us.

I believe that the present Bill, while it is essential and must be continued, is temporary in character and that it is important for the Minister and the Government to direct their minds to bringing in some provision for the setting up of permanent price-control machinery that, at least in some matters, will function openly in the light of day, that will be able to build up public confidence in the operation of that machinery by showing the public how the machinery operates and how the decisions are arrived at, and not leave us in the position in which it is widely held by the public at present that, time after time, responsible officers of the Department charged with supervising prices have been led up the garden path by very knowledgeable gentlemen.

It may be argued that it is not possible to bring before a public tribunal confidential reports and accounts of manufacturers, retailers, wholesalers, etc. I submit, however, that if a manufacturer desires to maintain and to extend his business and live out of the profits of it at the expense of placing an indirect tax, through a customs import duty on the public, he has as much obligation to submit himself to public examination as any worker applying for an increase in wages before the Labour Court. The position is exactly the same, and no special protection should be given to a manufacturer engaged in placing on the market articles of necessity to working-class families. I am prepared to admit that in many cases publicity might not be given in regard to matters placed before such a tribunal, but there are many cases to which the public could be invited to be present to listen to the arguments for and against either an increase in price or a reduction and be familiar with the basis of and the approach to the problem.

The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister, when they were sitting on the other side of the House, realised and understood this problem and on many occasions spoke on the lines on which I am speaking. I feel that they should take their courage in their hands and not be dissuaded by what I believe is their main difficulty—the conservatism of the officers of the Department. They should realise that, whatever recommendations are made by the officers, it is the Minister in the last resort who must carry the responsibility. In the opinion of the ordinary man in the street, the Minister is not taking as effective and as drastic steps as could be taken to start prices on a downward trend.

Recently very authoritative figures were issued by the Irish Trade Union Congress in regard to such matters as wages and profits, and the declaration was made that it was believed it was possible to secure a small percentage reduction in present-day prices solely at the expense of profits and out of profits which had been secured and accumulated during the years from 1939. The Trade Union Congress is waiting an opportunity to meet the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Finance to discover whether these figures are officially acceptable or not. I believe that it would be possible, even by administrative decree or Order, for the Minister to compel a reduction in the price of many necessary articles of 5, 7½ or 10 per cent. without imposing any drastic strain on manufacturers, wholesalers or retailers; that they could easily meet any reduction from the profits they are taking to-day or have taken in the past. If that were done, and if steps were taken to provide some permanent form of price control, certain features of which might operate in public, I think we would have a much easier position in the country, and would be able to maintain the stability we have had since 1946 in regard to the labour situation. If that is not done, then it is as well that the Minister should be aware that the present situation may not continue indefinitely, and that he is creating a problem for himself in the near future.

Deputy Lemass referred to the Efficiency Bill which was introduced in the Dáil in 1947. I was one of those who supported it. It was not all that one would desire, but at least it was an effort and, however much members of the House who to-day are supporting the present Government may have disliked many of its provisions, I think they should face the problem that there must be some machinery of a permanent character provided to deal with prices. If we insist on evading that particular issue, then sooner or later we are going to find ourselves up against difficulties.

Deputy O'Sullivan referred to the problem of relating to the control of building, the allocation of skilled labour, the manner in which the apportionment of licences had to be determined as well as the relative percentages of skilled labour employed on local authority building and on subsidy building as well as other forms of building. It was suggested, on a previous occasion, that one of the things that should be done was to control the prices at which houses were sold. If the question of the percentage of skilled labour that is used by private builders for building other than the subsidy type of house was approached from the point of view of the price at which these houses are offered to the public, it might be much easier to secure a sufficiency of skilled labour for the houses that are being built by local authorities.

Many Deputies are aware of the difficulty that has arisen in regard to the operation of the Small Dwellings Act and of the difference there is in valuations as applied by the valuers of local authorities and the valuers for a person seeking a loan. Has it not been clearly demonstrated that since the end of 1946 we have been faced with highly inflated prices in the case of houses? Many of us are aware that, within a matter of weeks the price asked for a particular type of house has dropped from £1,900 to £1,600—a house already built and without any change in wage rates or in the price of the materials going into the house.

We have seen the prices of houses around the city slowly but gradually falling back when the ability of the public to buy them became exhausted at their hitherto artificial price. That merely demonstrates the need there is for the control of prices, and so limit the ability of the private contractor to hold out exceptional rewards to skilled workers. If there was a limitation on his ability to hold out these rewards you would very quickly bring about a redistribution of labour, and so would make it less difficult for the local authority to get skilled labour to build its houses.

It is because we seem to have a certain reluctance at the present time to approach the problem of controlling prices through the operation of accepted price control machinery that we are facing so many difficulties. We are aware that both the Minister's Department and, presumably, the industrial authority must be dealing with this particular problem from day to day. I want to impress on the Minister that it is not satisfactory to have to come before the House year after year, and particularly at the present time when actual physical warfare has been ended for four years, and seek these temporary powers, and be continually putting off until to-morrow a decision as to whether or not we can, in the present post-war conditions, do without price control. I think everyone accepts it that we cannot. Therefore, we should face up to the problem, sit down and devise a system of price control which will be not only effective but which will engender public confidence in the operation of such machinery and will not place on the public the obligation of starting it in motion.

I hope that these points will be considered between now and the time in which the present powers will expire. The Minister should realise that, while credit is given to him for having secured the present relative stabilisation of prices, much more is sought now: that we are on the point where the balance is just holding, and that he is in the position to come down on the side of continuing stability in so far as the relationship between wages and prices is concerned. I think he should try to secure that, even by utilising very drastic powers, drastic only to the extent that they have not been used hitherto. They would not be drastic in the sense that by their enforcement a percentage reduction could be fully justified in the prices which have been taken over the past nine years by those engaged in the manufacture, sale and distribution of many necessary articles. The figures in relation to these are well known. They have been mentioned by the present Minister for Finance. He has issued warning after warning concerning them, but his warnings have been disregarded. I suggest that at this time, when the Minister for Industry and Commerce is seeking a continuation of these powers to control prices, there should be a determination on the part of the Government to face up to the problem which they know exists, and which they have stated in public does exist. They should find ways and means of dealing with it before it gets out of hand again.

This Bill seeks to reimpose many of the distasteful restrictions that were considered necessary during the war period. That was so because a position had been reached when certain classes of goods were in scarce supply. It was not only the policy of the then Government but of everyone who had any degree of responsibility to ensure that everyone would get his fair share of the available supply of goods. The Parliamentary Secretary has given some reasons why it is necessary to continue in operation the legislative provisions enacted at that time. During the war the Government which was then charged with administration took steps to ensure that essential commodities like bread, tea and sugar were made available in fair supply and at a reasonable price to the consumer. There were, of course, breaches of the regulations made at the time. I think that most of those who tried to evade the regulations were either caught up or else their activities were effectively curtailed. Tea, bread and sugar are still rationed. Nevertheless, it is possible for people with means to get greater quantities of these commodities than poor people. I want to protest on behalf of the poorer classes against the re-enactment of legislation which enables such a provision to be carried out.

One does not need to have much knowledge of the ordinary working classes in this country to realise that bread, tea and sugar are used in greater quantities by the poorer classes than by the better off classes. Bread is used particularly by people who are in poor circumstances and who are rearing families. I have received from all over my own constituency, and outside it, complaints from people who are forced to buy bread, tea and sugar at these increased prices. They say they are forced to subsidise people better off than themselves; they provide them with these commodities at subsidised prices. They also say it is an unfair form of taxation on the poorer classes. It may well be that the Government, through this device of differential prices, are able to save the subsidy and relieve taxation, but when this saving of the subsidy and this relief of taxation are reflected mostly in the taxation of the poorer classes, it is about time the position should be reexamined.

It is true that the normal person can get as much bread at the subsidised price as he requires, but there are times when bread at the unsubsidised price becomes necessary to many people. There are people who, through delicacy or possibly because of a slight little extravagance, at different times of the year feel it incumbent on them to buy bread at the increased price. If the Parliamentary Secretary examines the situation and the reports that must be coming into his Department, he must be convinced that the poorer classes mainly are buying these commodities at the increased prices. It is an unfair imposition on the poorer sections, an unfair means of taxation.

Referring to petrol, the Parliamentary Secretary said that it is as a result of the dollar content that the ration is being maintained. A few weeks ago the Minister for Finance said that an increase in the price of petrol was not anticipated because the dollar content was so low. He said in justification of that that the major part of the petrol cost was in the form of duty. Nevertheless, during the past week petrol was increased by 2d. a gallon. The Parliamentary Secretary should endeavour to explain these conflicting statements.

It was also stated that the provision of an all-the-year-round ration book would be convenient for the motorist. I think the Parliamentary Secretary must realise that the average motorist feels encumbered by the mere possession of a petrol ration book. I believe that motorists will find the ration book for the whole of the year 1950 a much greater encumbrance. It will be far less convenient for motorists than the system operating up to the present, that is, the quarterly book. The new idea will not make easier the motorist's problems.

Quite recently it was stated that the price of another commodity is to be increased. I do not intend to make the case that it is a necessary commodity in the ordinary life of the community. I might be wrong if I said the price has been increased, but certainly the increase is imminent. I refer to the price of whiskey. I have taken the trouble to ask different sections of the trade, the producers, the wholesalers and the retailers what is the reason for this increase in the price of whiskey. Strangely enough, I find each section trying to pass the buck on to the other section. If it comes within the ambit of this Bill, I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will explain to the House the necessity for this increase in the price of whiskey.

There is another matter to which I will refer. At the risk of being considered monotonous, I would like to raise it again. I refer to the withdrawal of the subsidy on wheatenmeal. This Bill relates to subsidies and, therefore, I take it the time is opportune for me again to raise this question. For some weeks the Minister for Agriculture has had questions directed to this particular subject. He gave three reasons for the withdrawal of the subsidy: first, that the meal was being used illegally for animal feeding; secondly, that it has a limited dietetic value; and thirdly, that it would provide a saving in the over-all amount on subsidies.

That subsidy is not covered by this Bill.

I take it that if I am not in order in dealing with it, I would have been ruled out by this time.

If the Parliamentary Secretary says the subsidy is not covered by this measure, I shall have to take his word for it.

Is not the price controlled by this Bill?

The price of wheatenmeal is controlled under this Bill. It ranges from 2/4 to 2/7 per lb. I take it under that head I can discuss the wheatenmeal subsidy. It is a subsidised commodity and therefore a rationed commodity. If the subsidy on this commodity is withdrawn, it will necessarily mean an increase in price and price control will not only be futile but it will be completely unnecessary because this commodity will be bound to disappear from the market. I asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce what number of prosecutions took place in the last eight years for the illegal use of wheatenmeal for animal feeding and he answered that there were only four in that period. I then suggested to him, and I do not think he was able to refute the suggestion, that that was no ground for the withdrawal of the subsidy. Four prosecutions in eight years were almost a negligible number.

As regards the dietetic value of wheatenmeal, we have eminent medical officers of health in this country and in England who maintain that wheatenmeal has a very high dietetic value. Even as late as 23rd November there was a letter in the daily Press from one of the most eminent medical officers of health in this country, Dr. Saunders of Cork, in which he reaffirmed his previous conviction that wheatenmeal has a high dietetic value and that the withdrawal of the subsidy on it would be a major catastrophe from the point of view of the health of the community. I do not propose to go into the letter, which is a lengthy one, but I have no doubt before any decision is reached, the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister for Agriculture will have this letter examined very minutely.

As regards the saving to the Exchequer, the Parliamentary Secretary announced yesterday, when he was introducing this Bill, that the over-all subsidy for food lay somewhere between £9,000,000 and £10,000,000 for the current year. The subsidy on wheatenmeal for the current year is estimated at about £80,000. I suggest that that sum is rather small in relation to the £9,000,000 or £10,000,000 representing over-all subsidies. It represents something less than 1 per cent. and I suggest that that in itself is not a sufficient excuse for the withdrawal of the subsidy. If, as I have suggested, the price is increased to such an extent that the production of wheatenmeal must come to an end, then the consumption of that particular commodity or of flour will be reflected in the consumption of the subsidised flour. The saving, therefore, at the expense of wheatenmeal will represent an increase to some extent in the subsidy on 85 per cent. extraction flour. Because of that, I say that the argument of the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary fails.

On the debate on the Adjournment on this subject on the 17th November, the Parliamentary Secretary said at column 1175 of Volume 118:—

"It is one of a number of measures consequential on the recommendations made in the bread and flour inquiry report, the inquiry which has been conducted by a committee under the chairmanship of the Attorney-General."

I have no reason to doubt that that proposal was contained in the report of this committee. I take serious exception to the fact, however, that the report of such an inquiry should be examined and action taken upon it without its recommendations being first disclosed to the public. I think that is bad in the public interest. I think it is undesirable from every point of view that an inquiry such as this should submit its proposals to the Government and the Government contemplate action upon it without informing the public as to the recommendations made.

There is a very famous precedent for that.

The fact that there is a precedent for something I consider undesirable is certainly no answer to me. I think the majority of the Deputies and the responsible public will agree that such recommendations should not be put into effect without first acquainting the general public as to their nature. Not alone should that practice be discouraged, but it should be abolished. The public should have an opportunity of weighing the situation for themselves. Irrespective of who did it formerly, I assert that such action savours of dictatorship.

The wheatenmeal millers are aware that the subsidy was introduced to meet the emergency situation. They realise that it cannot last for ever. The wheatenmeal millers are in a minority. The 85 per cent. extraction millers are in a majority. I think it is grossly unfair to this minority that it alone should suffer for the sake of a paltry saving to the Exchequer. The wheatenmeal millers, realising that the subsidy must come to an end at some stage, would be quite prepared for the withdrawal of the subsidy if and when subsidies generally are withdrawn. They do not ask for special treatment. All they want is fair play. It is evidently the intention to discriminate against them now while the 85 per cent. extraction millers are left untouched. In the reply on the Adjournment debate, to which I have already referred, the Parliamentary Secretary said there would be ample provision for the displaced workers from the wheatenmeal mills in alternative employment. I read some extracts on that occasion from letters from the workers in these mills showing that the alternatives offered would by no means satisfy the labour content displaced. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should reconsider the withdrawal of the subsidy. I am sure that, on reconsideration, he will realise that its withdrawal would discriminate unfairly against the wheatenmeal millers and against those people who are dependent on wheatenmeal flour for their ordinary sustenance. At the risk of being monotonous, I repeat that this is an important matter in relation to the people affected. I suggest the proposal should be reconsidered and I confidently leave the matter in the hands of the Parliamentary Secretary in the belief that, on reconsideration, he will revise his present decision.

I do not think any member of the House welcomes the fact that controls and rationing are still necessary in the public interest. We would all like to see a situation where commodities would be in free supply to all at a fair and reasonable price. As the Parliamentary Secretary has stated, however, when introducing this Bill, these circumstances do not obtain at present and it is unlikely that normal circumstances, as Deputy Larkin pointed out, will obtain in relation to many necessary supplies for many years to come. Accordingly, while we may regret it, I cannot see any objection to this particular Bill. I think that that view is shared by Deputies on all sides of the House. Advantage has been taken of the Bill by Deputies opposite to shed crocodile tears concerning the rationing of the commodities that are rationed in this country. We heard Deputy Lemass speak at length about rationing. He asked what was the necessity for the rationing of petrol; what was the reason why it was being rationed in this country. Deputy Lemass, who, more than any other Deputy in the Party opposite, is aware that our petrol comes indirectly from the dollar area——

What proportion?

Deputy Allen will have an opportunity of speaking later. I am sure that he will have a few wise words to say. Deputy Lemass must appreciate that the question of petrol supply to this country is largely concerned with the short supply to the country of dollar currency. At the same time, I do not think any person who is dependent upon or who requires the use of petrol in this country—whether it be for an ordinary motor car or for other purposes—has any complaint concerning the ration and the consideration given to him by the present rationing authorities. The ration of petrol to the ordinary motorist, the ration of petrol to those who require it for the use of lorries or other vehicles for other business, is a fair and a reasonable one. It is far more reasonable, far more fair than the ration allowed to them by Deputy Lemass when he was Minister in charge of this particular matter.

Deputy Lemass—and, of course, poor Deputy Corry could not keep quiet either—is concerned about the fact that other commodities—commodities required for food such as flour, tea and sugar—are also rationed here. I think that Deputies who speak like that are speaking with their tongues in their cheeks. They know well that the supply of tea and sugar—and flour, possibly—in this country might admit of the complete derationing of those particular commodities. They know that the supply is such, but they know also that one of the present necessities for rationing has transcended completely the question of supply and is bound up with an assurance given by this Government to the people that the stable articles of diet will be given to them at a price which they can afford to pay.

Deputies who speak from the opposite side know well that one reason rationing is required here is to ensure that a subsidised loaf, a subsidised ration of tea, of sugar and of butter is available to those who cannot afford to pay enhanced prices. Therefore, when Deputies such as Deputy Lemass and Deputy Corry talk about derationing this particular commodity and derationing that particular commodity, I take it that they mean one of two things—firstly, that the present subsidies in relation to those commodities should be removed. The consequence of that would be, in relation to tea certainly, in relation to flour and also in relation to sugar, that the price of those commodities to the less well-off members of the community would advance. That would be a direct consequence of removing the present rationing controls. I think that if any Deputy on the Opposition side of the House advances that demand seriously, he should deal with the consequences of derationing. If they say "Well, when we say ‘remove rationing' we mean, of course, that the present subsidy should be maintained for the unrationed loaf and in respect of sugar and tea" then they mean that the ordinary community should be called upon to pay increased taxes to maintain those particular subsidies. There is no other way out of it. Either the consumer must pay more for the loaf, for the tea and for the sugar or, on the other hand, the ordinary taxpayer must be called upon to foot a larger bill.

I think that the course adopted by the Government is a fair and a reasonable course in the circumstances. They have endeavoured, in relation to the actual amount and quantity of the rationed article, to give an amount which, in the circumstances, is fair and reasonable to the people. They give 8 oz. of butter where the former Government was in the habit of doling out two miserable ounces; they give 2 oz. of tea and nearly 1 lb. of sugar per week. These amounts are reasonable. I do not think that it is the experience of any Deputy here that there are any well-founded complaints about the amount of these particular rations.

Deputy Corry talked about the price differential in relation to flour and to sugar. Apparently, at one moment he was saying that white flour was being sold at an exorbitant price which nobody could afford to pay, and the next moment he was saying that white flour was now a luxury which could only be bought by the rich or well-to-do section of the people. While I suppose that type of speech is fair comment from the Opposition I think, nevertheless, that the Government is to be congratulated with regard to this system of doublepricing in regard to these two commodities. The first concern of this Government must be to maintain a fair ration at, if necessary, a subsidised price to the ordinary people to ensure that, within the reach of the pockets of the ordinary people, there is a sufficient supply of the necessary articles of food.

That may be done by continuing a subsidy from year to year—a subsidy which will fall on the backs of the taxpayers generally—or the amount of that ration and the price can only be guaranteed by making those who can afford to pay more and who require luxuries or anything of that nature to pay a price which will assist the rationed price for rationed commodities.

We all know, in relation to bread, that the best loaf, and the loaf most favoured by dieticians generally, is the rationed loaf—the semi-white loaf we have on our ration now. We have been told that for a number of years back by authorities in England and elsewhere. We have been told it time and time again in a very forcible manner by Deputy Lemass himself and, I think, by Deputy MacEntee. That is the position. It surely must be the concern of the Government to ensure that that better loaf is kept at a price that is within the means of the ordinary people in the country, even the poorest. If we can achieve that, partly through making the rich man pay more for an inferior loaf, what is wrong with it? I cannot see any objection to it. There is no compulsion in relation to the matter. The better-off amongst our community are still ensured the rationed loaf with their weekly rations, the same as the poorest in the land. If they want to go in for champagne dinners and white bread then they have to pay champagne prices.

Did you not reduce the duty on champagne?

We also reduced the price of stout.

And you put up the price of whiskey.

The position therefore is that if the rich man, for whom Deputy MacEntee frequently speaks, wants to indulge in luxury or if he prefers white bread, we know that unwittingly he is helping the poorer man down the back road by assisting in maintaining the lower price for the rationed loaf. Of course, these remarks in relation to flour also apply in relation to sugar. It may be, as Deputy Corry has said, that the economic price of sugar is something round 6d. or 6½d. and that the price at which unrationed sugar may now be bought by anybody is something more than the economic price. If that is so, I say: "More power to the Minister." It is far better if we have in this country—I do not care whether Deputy Corry calls it black marketing or not— a surplus of sugar, a supply surplus to the rationed quantity for the country, that it should be bought, even at an enhanced price, through some responsible Government source in the country and that the profits should go back to the pockets of the ordinary people by way of maintaining the rationed price. It is far better than to have sugar hawked round the country and sold by every cheap black marketeer in every village and town, such as was the position until this year when two different prices were introduced. As Deputy Corry knows, black-marketing in these commodities has completely ceased since this principle was adopted because anybody who now wants to exceed his ration, no matter for what purpose—it may be just because he likes sugar or white bread —knows that he can get what he wants by going to a legitimate trader and paying the fixed price, the economic price, for that over the counter. He has not to go down a back street to do a dirty deal with some fellow dealing in the black market. That is something that has been achieved, something which the ordinary people appreciate and of which they are not oblivious.

I have, perhaps, spoken longer than I intended on this matter but I do wish to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the manner in which he has introduced this Bill to the House. I think that, in relation to the control of the necessary commodities, the ordinary community have every confidence in the present Administration. They are getting fair quantities at a fair price and the elimination of the black-marketeer has been completed.

There are a few matters in relation to this Bill to which I should like to advert. In spite of what Deputy O'Higgins has told us, I am sure he is well aware that the public, day in and day out, inquire when is this rationing to stop. They also ask what is the necessity for rationing in the present age. Rationing was introduced originally because of short supplies. The word "ration" connotes a shortage of supply or a division of existing supplies. That is what the system was originally introduced for.

The Deputy was never in the Army.

I ate Army rations and I did not get anything extra either.

Deputy O'Higgins, of course, soldiered.

I certainly did.

That is all right.

Rationing was introduced during the emergency for essential commodities so that there would be a division of whatever was available amongst the community on a fair basis. At the present moment, as the community are well aware, we have a full supply of tea, sugar and bread, whatever about butter. That is in fairly liberal supply also. There may be a doubt as to whether it should be taken fully off the ration but I shall deal with the other items. Bread and flour are in full supply. This is the only country in the world where bread is being rationed at the present time. There is no use in arguing that because we must subsidise bread and flour it is necessary to ration them. If it is necessary to subsidise these commodities—we shall agree it is for the sake of argument— they could be subsidised without rationing. The Parliamentary Secretary is fully aware of that. Bread was not rationed in this country until about three years ago, until the very serious crisis of 1946 or 1947.

You would put back the supplementary taxes then?

It was subsidised for many years before that. The Parliamentary Secretary is well aware of that. It was subsidised in the emergency and for the greater portion of the emergency there was no rationing whatever.

That was before we bought the Argentine wheat.

Before many things happened, when the Deputy was only a baby and had not grown up with all the knowledge he has to-day.

A Deputy

Keep your hair on.

Two types of flour are on sale in this country; one of them helps to subsidise the other. To my mind that is a political fraud that has spread out across the country—one type of flour for the rich and the other type for the ordinary people. It is a well-known fact throughout the country that it is the poorer section of the community who are buying this dear flour whenever they can afford it.

It is the only luxury they have now.

They eat more bread than the better off members of the community.

Does Deputy Allen suggest that it should be stopped?

It is not the rich who have to pay for it; it is the poor and weaker sections of the community. The remarks I have made about bread apply also to the two markets in tea and sugar. Are we as taxpayers being called upon to pay for the services of a number of highly skilled gentlemen and women employed by the State, to carry out rationing for the rest of our lives? That is a question I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will answer when he comes to reply. He might tell us for what number of years we may expect to go on paying. Has the Government made any estimate of how long or for what period it may be necessary to continue the rationing system in regard to commodities that are in full supply and for which there is no necessity whatever to maintain the present system of rationing—I repeat no necessity whatever?

You have to-day the farce of rationing petrol. You have been told it is still rationed because of dollar shortages and dollar difficulty. But it was only some day during the week that we were informed from a semiofficial source that our full supply of petroleum was available from sources in the sterling area.

Where did you get that information?

It was stated that our full supply was available from sterling sources, and I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to inform the House and the country whether he knows that petrol is flowing around the country, and that no dollars are being saved under the present rationing system? He might also tell us whether it is true that there is so much petrol that everyone, tractor owner and motorist alike, can get all the petrol they can pay for.

I say to the House that the continuance of petrol rationing has brought the whole system of petrol rationing into so much contempt that no one bothers about it nowadays, that every motorist can drive for 24 hours of the day the whole year round if he has the money to pay for the petrol. That is well known to the community. I am not for a moment suggesting that supplies should be restricted, but we have been informed that petrol is in full supply and if that is so, there is no reason why people should not be allowed to purchase it. We have been assured that there are no difficulties about dollars or anything else. The present rationing system is a nuisance, not only to motorists, but to traders and people who stock petrol, and it is certainly an expensive luxury for the State to maintain such substantial staffs to enforce a system of rationing which has become a farce. Large staffs are employed in printing petrol coupons, circulating them and checking them and all the rest whereas everyone knows the community regard the continuance of rationing as a joke as well as a nuisance.

The attitude of the Government is rather extraordinary coming from a group of Parties which bitterly opposed the Supplies and Services Bill when it was introduced in this House four or five years ago. Some of them demanded undertakings that if the Bill were passed it would be brought to an end within the year. Yet, five years after the emergency has ended, we still continue with these rationing Orders on commodities which are by no means, as we know, in scarce supply.

The Parliamentary Secretary told us that some essential commodities are still scarce. He did not give any indication of what they were and I do not think that there is any considerable number of people who are aware of them. The Supplies and Services Bill had a two-fold purpose. The first was to divide fairly the available supplies among the people, and the second was to regulate the prices of essential commodities in this country. It has been pointed out that there are many essential commodities which have increased in price. The Government had its own way of getting out of that trouble. They decontrolled them and then they made provision for the operation of two prices for the same kind of commodity. We know what they have done in regard to the prices of flour. The control on the price of oatenmeal has gone and the price has gone up. The price of jam has gone up. The price of confectionery has gone up because the price of white flour has gone up and that is because the bakers are forced to use the superior white flour. But, if you go into any confectioner's shop in Ireland and ask them what section of the community uses the most confectionery, you will be told it is the poorer class of families.

Do the rich people buy anything at all?

They buy big motor cars.

Will Deputy O'Higgins tell us if they buy champagne at the lower prices introduced by this Government?

Who gave you that information?

The poor men could not buy stout when you were in.

The Deputy is talking about the poor men buying stout. When we were in office they bought stout under cheaper conditions than anyone else.

And you thought it was too dear.

Not a bit. The House will want to know if it is true that the two prices for flour and bread have been put there for the purpose of saving the faces of the present Government in regard to the expenditure on subsidies. They say they are trying to get taxation reduced. They reduced the taxation on cinemas and stout and dog-racing, but they are trying to collect the money that they have given away through increasing the prices of flour, sugar, tea and butter. They might as well face the facts and admit that straight away because it is the fact.

There was great play made of their reducing the prices of cinemas, dog-racing, tobacco and drink. We will make them a present of their statements about that for what they are worth.

It was worth £2,000,000 to the old-age pensioners anyway.

I will make a prophecy that if this Government remains in power, it will reimpose the taxation on beer, tobacco, the dog-tracks and cinemas. So far as Deputy Flanagan's remark is concerned, the old-age pensioners are getting less now than they got under Fianna Fáil. However, a Chinn Chomhairle, I am waiting for the Parliamentary Secretary to explain what is the justification for the increase in the prices of clothing and footwear, and the increase in the price of cotton goods.

Cotton goods have gone up during the last few months as a result of devaluation.

In the case of the footwear scheme operated by the Department of Social Welfare certain grants have been given to local authorities and the local authorities put up an equal amount. It was reported recently to one local authority with which I am concerned that the number of pairs of footwear available for distribution to children in the area was reduced by a third owing to the price of boots. It was reduced from 5,500 to 4,000 pairs roughly and that has taken place under the benign Government that were to reduce all things the community needed.

I have been asked to represent to the Parliamentary Secretary that he might well consider the extension of the principle contained in one of the Emergency Powers Orders, the one that prohibits the conditional sale by retailers of rationed commodities above the controlled price, to wholesalers.

It was interesting to listen to Deputy Larkin's excuses for the policy of the present Government. When he spoke of the Standstill Order he did not give details of the position when we were put to this side of the House. According to some of the members who form the inter-Party Government I thought we would be living in a paradise when that Government came into power. As a matter of fact, I was looking forward to saving a lot of money and I thought that the people of the country would live in luxury when I heard that the cost of living was to go down by 30 per cent. and that more subsidies would be paid. To my amazement, after two years I find that the price of 16 commodities has increased, notwithstanding the promises of that virtuous Party.

Was whiskey one of the commodities?

I heard Deputy O'Higgins say that the butter ration was good enough. Does Deputy O'Higgins compare conditions now with war conditions? Does he represent to us when we are in a position to give more that eight ounces of butter are enough for a family? He referred to the two ounces of butter during the war, but it is no use speaking of war conditions now four years after the war has ended. The Labour Party tell you on the hustings that they represent the working man, but they have stood over a Government that could subsidise butter and increase the ration but which did not do so. No working-class family in County Dublin or any other part of the country can carry on easily with that ration. The answer of two ounces during the emergency is not an answer. I am dealing with conditions as I find them to-day. If the Labour Party wanted to help the workers they could ask the Government to subsidise the essentials, butter, tea and sugar. I am sure that the House realises that during the war people had to put up with hardships but the war is now over. You can buy as much of the three most necessary things as you like at 5/- a lb. for butter and tea and 7½d. for sugar while white flour is 7/- a stone, and the Party that is supposed to be the archangel of the working man makes feeble excuses for this. They will talk about a Standstill Order——

A Standstill Order does not come in here.

I am only replying to statements which have been made——

Last night.

——about the Standstill Order. They make nice excuses. One Labour member asked Deputy Corry what would the farmers say if he came to the House and looked for more subsidies. They have gone round so much that they would not consider a subsidy.

Wages have not increased to the same extent since the inter-Party Government took office. A 50 per cent. increase was given before they took over. Except for the case of a few pensioners the increase has been very small. Deputy Desmond spoke of an increase to old age pensioners of 2/6 but I thought they were to get £1 6s. Footwear has gone up by at least 20 per cent. in two years. Clothes have gone up by 25 per cent. Petrol has increased. Sugar, white flour, whiskey, bacon——

From what is the Deputy quoting?

I am quoting information which I know to be authentic.

Your imagination?

No, but figures which I know as a result of my inquiries and because I am a family man and have to buy these commodities. The man who has to go to a restaurant has to pay more than 12 months ago. Confectionery and biscuits have increased. Only one member is here of the Party which gulled the people of the country and I am sorry that the leader is not here. We were told that stringent price control would operate and a statement was made here by some Ministers that some people would be put behind strong, thick walls, but prices are still going up. I would like to see a Bill brought in to deal with this matter because the effect of any increase the workers got is being gradually reduced by this policy of the present Government which is supported by the 30 per cent. reduction Party, the Labour Party, the Clann and Fine Gael. The people of Ireland will face the position and realise how they have been hoodwinked and that something practical will have to be done in the future. All the false promises have gone by the board. I strongly recommend to the Parliamentary Secretary that the three essential commodities— butter, tea and sugar—should be given more liberally to the working people and the poor, butter especially. Where a man is in receipt of an average wage and has a large family, I hold that, if the country can afford it, the butter and sugar rations should be considerably increased.

Deputy Burke has quoted from some document percentage increases in regard to some essential commodities. I am not prepared to say they are entirely wrong, but before Deputy Burke goes I would like to tell him—as he goes—that, since this Government came into existence, in my own constituency the road workers' wages have been increased by 9/- a week. That could not have happened under the Standstill Order, which was brought into operation and continued in operation under the last Government.

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary and to the Government as a body that if they are anxious, as I am sure they are, to maintain effective control over the price of essential commodities, in order to bring down the cost of living or to stabilise it, they will have to consider seriously between this and next year bringing into use a more drastic system of price control. I would like to hear the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply give us some instances where the existing price control machinery, in the case of essential commodities, kept down the cost of living or the price of any particular essential commodity, or prevented it from being increased.

All Deputies are concerned about the provision of more houses, the cost of building houses, the rents at which they are let or are going to be let in areas where houses are being built at very high costs. I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether there is any machinery in existence between the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Local Government to supervise the activities of local authorities as to the cost of building houses and the cost of the material that goes into their erection. I want to bring under his notice a couple of glaring cases and I would like him, if he has the machinery at his disposal, to make immediate investigation into them. I have been trying to ferret out information, in regard to the country as a whole and my own constituency in particular, as to the cost of building houses and I am certain there is something radically wrong in some cases.

Would the Deputy state whether the material is controlled?

It is supposed to be and, if not, I want to know the reason why. The matter has been referred to already by Deputy O'Sullivan in greater detail, so far as it affects the activities of the Dublin Corporation. I would bring under the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary this kind of case. I inquired recently as to the number of houses and the cost of building them, in towns in my own constituency. In the case of Tullamore, where there is a first-class housing authority, they have erected houses— and they are still erecting more—at a contract price of £1,042. The answer to these questions is given in Volume 118, column 1366.

Would the Deputy state to whom the question was addressed?

To the Minister for Local Government.

In the case of Edenderry, in the same county, where the same rates of wages are paid to builders' labourers, the cost of erecting a house is £1,800. The same class of house as is being built in Tullamore for £1,042 is costing, under the Edenderry Town Commissioners' régime, £1,800. I seriously suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that there should be an immediate investigation into the reason for the big difference in the cost. I am reliably informed that the wage content in erecting houses for local authorities is about 50 per cent. The rates of wages to builders' labourers and skilled workers on both of these schemes are the same, so there is something there to be explained.

The rents which will be charged in cases like that will have a very serious effect on the cost of living of the families looking for these houses. They will have to pay excessive rents. The economic rent of the houses being built in Tullamore would be 18/- plus rates, while those in Edenderry will cost £1 8s. 2d. plus rates. Where, in the name of goodness, in these days, are the wage earners in these small towns to get the money to pay these rents— especially in the case of Edenderry?

At any rate, if there is no effective machinery in existence in the Department of Industry and Commerce for looking into these very serious matters, I think the machinery should be set up immediately and there should be some collaboration and consultation between that Department and the Department of Local Government in regard to the high cost of building houses in certain areas, and effective steps should be taken to bring down those costs.

Deputy Burke rightly referred to the increase in the price of boots and shoes. Shortly after the devaluation of the £—in fact, within a week of the date of devaluation—I read three circular letters sent by three boot manufacturing firms in this country to a certain Dublin drapery firm, one of the biggest in the city. In one case, it was indicated that the circular came as a result of devaluation, but the others did not refer to devaluation. The circular said that these firms could not fulfil certain orders that had been previously given to them unless there was an immediate increase, or an assurance given that the firm in Dublin which gave the order would pay 18 to 20 per cent. more. I forwarded that complaint to the Department over which the Parliamentary Secretary presides as assistant to the Minister, and was given an assurance that it would be looked into immediately. I am wondering whether the Parliamentary Secretary and his official advisers were convinced that there was genuine justification for the recent increase in the price of boots and shoes; and, if so, if good reasons were given, would he tell us those reasons?

One of the boot manufacturing concerns which operates in our northern counties said to the Dublin drapery firm concerned that the increased price would have to come into operation on the day following devaluation. They certainly made it quite clear that the increased price they proposed, and would insist on getting, for boots and shoes, to fill orders previously given, was coming as a direct result of devaluation. Whether it was the result of devaluation or was due to some other cause, I want to know the justification for the recent increase in the price of boots and shoes, as it affects every family, poor and rich. Unless the Parliamentary Secretary can give very convincing reasons in detail, I certainly will not be satisfied that the price control section of his Department has been doing its duty in this respect.

Deputy Lynch mentioned the number of prosecutions and convictions that had been secured within a period of eight years and, if he correctly represented the answer given by the Parliamentary Secretary on some previous occasion, the number was four.

That applied to wheatenmeal.

That is correct. There must be some deterrent punishment provided in existing legislation or in future legislation, if that is thought desirable, in order to prevent these people who will insist on putting up the price of essential commodities if they are allowed to do so. We had the glaring case of the excessive prices charged to the poor people, not only in the City of Dublin but in provincial towns, for vegetables, including potatoes. I know provincial towns where the price of potatoes to-day is excessive. That matter requires to be immediately investigated. In order to bring down the price of vegetables in this city, a producer-consumer market was established, with the benediction of some members of the Dublin Corporation, a couple of years ago.

Following the establishment of that market, the price of vegetables declined almost immediately in the shops in the vicinity of the market. What happened since? I am reliably informed that a number of organisations representing various classes of distributors became very active and were able to bring sufficient influence to bear upon certain members of the Dublin Corporation and that market is about to disappear. That market gave very valuable service to the poorer section of this city and, if it is to disappear, it is all the more reason why the price control section of the Department should become more active in regard to the price of vegetables and other essential commodities. I hope that before the Parliamentary Secretary has to come before this House at the end of another year with a Bill of this kind the question of the revision of the price control section of his Department will be carefully investigated.

I would first like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give us further details in regard to the necessity for rationing petrol. As far as I can gather, from reading a report of the consumption of hydrocarbon oils in Europe as a whole, the proportion of petrol to all other oils has very much decreased since before the war and no longer plays the same part in the general question of the allocation of dollars for oils of this description. So far as I could gather, before the war petrol amounted to about 55 per cent. of all hydrocarbon oils in Europe and, since the war, amounted to 20 per cent. and, therefore, need not provide any serious problem so far as rationing is concerned unless there is some other factor such as the proportion of dollar petrol bought under present circumstances as compared with sterling petrol. It would be interesting to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary how soon he can offer any hope that we will be able to secure most of our petrol requirements from the sterling area and whether the proportion of petrol imported to all hydrocarbon oils is as low here as it is in the rest of Europe, the suggestion being in that case that it need not provide a very serious dollar or rationing problem.

Secondly, I should like to advert to some of the remarks made by Deputy O'Higgins, in which he suggested that the rations being allowed by the present Government were very much superior to those offered to the people under the former Government. He used the word in a contemptuous sense, "miserable" as applied to the rations offered by the previous Government. Deputy O'Higgins may be a young man but he is surely not so young that he has forgotten that we did pass through a world emergency and that when he was not in this House the members of all Parties, including even Deputy Dillon, unanimously paid tribute to the Minister for Supplies, as he then was, when he announced the closing of his Department, both for the manner in which he distributed the essentials to the people of this country and the manner in which he conducted the whole rationing operation. It is a contemptible thing for a young Deputy to cast aspersions on the work of the former Minister which, in spite of whatever detailed criticism there was, was commended by all members in the House at the close of the period of immediate emergency. I should like also to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he approves of the practice whereby the prices calculated for cost of living purposes of tea, sugar and bread are based on the ration price and not on a combination representing the average price of the commodity rationed and unrationed. For example, when I last asked a question of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, one-sixth of the sugar for domestic use and exclusive of sugar used for manufacturing purposes was being bought off the ration. Surely it is wrong that the cost of sugar, when calculated by the inspectors, should be regarded as being only the ration price when, in fact, one-sixth of the total quantity is bought at the increased price. Unless there has been a change since I last asked the question, that is the method used in computing the cost for the cost-of-living index.

The same applies in regard to tea used for domestic or catering consumption and, as far as I know, also applies to flour used for bread and for bread itself. It is the ordinary bread that is counted for that purpose.

Next I should like to advert to some observations made by Deputies on the Government side to the effect that the eating of white bread relates in some way to the drinking of champagne. I do not know whether Deputies on the Government side are living in an airy champagne world of their own, but I was always under the impression from my own constituency that people of every class in the community enjoy pure white bread, that the people living in the country, who ordinarily eat wholemeal bread, like to buy an odd white loaf for Saturday, for guests, or for Sunday, that it was a commodity universally enjoyed by the whole community. Whether or not it was perfect for health, whether or not it contained the carbohydrates, I understood that it was a commodity largely bought by the community and very much more enjoyed by people of modest means, who bought it in the bakery shop, having baked most of their loaves of wholemeal bread during the week, than it was enjoyed by the rich. I regard all these observations linking white bread with champagne as sheer nonsense. It would be much better to be frank and simply to say the Government are determined to have two prices for bread, one for wholemeal bread and one for white bread and cannot afford to allow the people, rich and poor, to buy all the bread on a rationed subsidised basis, and leave it at that. Just as other Deputies have said, extra quantities of tea and sugar and a nicer quality of bread are the natural perquisites, and the choice, whenever possible, of poor people as well as rich and anything said to the contrary is surely the sheerest nonsense.

I also heard Deputy T.F. O'Higgins referring to the ending of black marketeering in this country, as a result of the establishment of the two price principle for tea, sugar, bread and flour. Again, Deputy O'Higgins was apparently speaking as a young and untrained Deputy about black marketeering, without being aware of the fact that, when the Minister for Industry and Commerce said that the percentage of shops engaging in extensive black marketeering was very small—he gave the figure, at the worst of the period, as something between 18 and 22 per cent.—no one in the House at the time questioned the accuracy of his statement.

Did the Deputy say between 18 and 22 per cent.?

Only 18 to 22 per cent. of the total retail distributors had ever been guilty of any breach, major or minor, of the rationing regulations.

And the Deputy calls that——

The Deputy who is in possession does not interrupt and did not interrupt once to-day.

That is an extremely small figure for any country, particularly when we realise that in many cases the regulations were broken through ignorance and not with any deliberate intention. The principal opposition we met at the time was opposition to regulations designed to check black marketeering, and when we failed to get the public to give evidence and had to use inspectors, we received every kind of criticism from Deputy O'Higgins's Party about the methods used by the Government in the time of crisis to enforce the regulations and to prevent black marketeering. We also had criticism when we had to make examples of people engaged in very serious black marketeering. The then Minister for Industry and Commerce used to tell us that he received representations from Deputies of the entire Opposition for reduction of sentences and prevention of prosecutions in respect of persons who had quite clearly been guilty of black marketeering, so let us hear no more about ending black marketeering from young Deputies in the Fine Gael Party. They should be aware of the position and should know that, taken by and large, the vast majority of retailers lived up to their obligations and the Government, in the vast majority of instances, was able to prevent or correct such black marketeering as existed. Naturally there are always exceptions.

Again—it does not strictly arise on this Bill, but, since the matter has already been spoken of, the Ceann Comhairle will scarcely prevent me from making comments on it—we have heard one or two little interruptions from the Government side about the taxes on beer and cigarettes levied by the previous Administration in October, 1947. From my own point of view, I want to say that I have no feeling of regret for these taxes we levied temporarily upon the people. They were never intended to be permanent, and I might add that the nauseating kind of propaganda of appealing to the most primitive instincts of the ordinary man hurled against us during the general election had no effect in the vast majority of the constituencies of the country. The people listened to it week after week from every platform. We in Longford-Westmeath heard it, too, and it had no effect on our political position in that county.

I used to say to the people that if they did not wish to pay the tax, they could smoke four cigarettes instead of five, and, if they were content to throw the then Government out of office rather than not go on smoking the five cigarettes and pay the extra tax, they were at liberty to do so. I said it off at least 50 platforms and it made no difference in regard to the number of people who were elected. Whenever I hear these mutterings about taxes on stout, beer and whiskey, I intend to defend the position of the previous Government in regard to that matter. It was a very valuable temporary inflationary measure. It helped to eliminate and to remove from the community spending what is commonly described in the economic life of this country and other countries as hot money. It succeeded in doing that and it brought down the cost of living by 3 per cent. in three months. It was, as I say, never intended to be a permanent measure and we in Longford-Westmeath, if in no other place, were able to stand all the racket and all the talk.

Before passing on to the general question of rationing and the cost of living, I think I should remark that the standstill Order was removed by the previous Government and not by the present Government. A number of Deputies have spoken as though its removal was one of the first acts of the new Government. So far as I can recall, it was removed at least two years before the Government fell. The result of the standstill Order and the other measures adopted by the Government during the emergency was that we could compare, in point of the increase which took place in the cost of living here, very favourably with about 73 other nations for which figures were computed and could show that the cost of living had gone up to a lesser extent here than in the majority of other countries. We were amongst the first 15 countries out of 73 in the matter of the degree to which the cost of living had gone up. I mention that in passing because very often we hear Deputies, and particularly Deputies of the Labour Party, seeming to take credit for the removal of the standstill Order. No one wished to have that standstill Order. It was imposed simply for war-time reasons.

I think no opportunity should be missed, whenever we are discussing rationing or prices, of pointing out the mildness of the talk of the Government about reductions in the cost of living. I wonder what would have happened if during the elections the present Minister for Industry and Commerce had gone round and lectured the trade unions that the remedy in regard to a reduction in the cost of living lay in the hands of the people. I wonder what would have happened if the Clann na Poblachta Deputies, instead of promising a reduction in the cost of living of 30 per cent., which would have cost the taxpayer £40,000,000 a year to effect, had gone round meekly and mildly and preached off the political platforms that the remedy in relation to a reduced cost of living lay in the hands of the consumer, the consumer whose evidence before the Department of Industry and Commerce, as the Parliamentary Secretary well knows, is always inadequate in amount or in type. What would have happened if these Deputies had told them that it was they who were supposed to bring down the cost of living, that the Government could not do anything about it?

I wonder what would have happened if these same Deputies, when they came before the people in 1948, had said: "We have a plan for reducing the cost of living, under which wages will go up by 10 per cent. and the cost of living will remain the same. There will be no reduction, but we agree that wages should go up by 10 per cent. Certain items will increase in price, items which are not reflected in the cost of living index figure. There will be small increases in the prices of bread and other things, but, if we do that, it is worth throwing out the present Government"? That is the claim, the proud claim, now made by the present Administration, that wages have gone up by 10 per cent. and the cost of living has remained the same. That was not the talk we heard during the election. The talk we heard then was that there was a gigantic inflation of prices caused by groups of manufacturers and retailers richly rewarding the Fianna Fáil election war-chest in order that their accounts should be disregarded by the officials of the Department of Industry and Commerce. That was the talk we heard. It was not a question of a mere net reduction of 10 per cent. in the cost of living. The suggestion was that the whole of the cost of living was vastly inflated and that if a new Government could get into office the cost of living would be slashed. The operative word was not "reduced" but "slashed,""cut,""broken." These were the suggestions made. Of course in a few constituencies people foolishly listened to the promise of Clann na Poblachta that they would reduce the cost of living by 30 per cent.

It never occurred to members of the Clann to put their promise in another way. They could have said: "We will arrange for free tea, sugar and milk to be given to the people; when they present their coupons for tea and sugar they will get the goods free." That would have been a simpler way of organising a reduction of 30 per cent. in the cost of living than by actually arranging to reduce a great number of commodities by 30 per cent. and rationing each one. It would be much simpler if the members of the Clann had known their cost-of-living calculation well enough to offer to give people free tea, sugar, bread and flour and reduce the cost of living by 30 per cent., rather like the offering of bread in the Roman circuses.

The whole of the ramp in regard to the cost of living altered according to a number of statements which were made. We had the Minister for Finance, Mr. McGilligan, during the course of the 1948 Budget begging the people not to ask for any further increases in wages on the ground that the recent increases in wages had met as far as possible the claim for social justice. In September, 1948, we had a prominent Deputy of the Labour Party, after interviewing the Minister for Industry and Commerce, saying that the representatives of trade unions and the labour people generally were not convinced that prices could not be broken. Then we had what will be somewhat historical in the annals of this House, Deputy Cowan's last desperate appeal to the Taoiseach in December, 1948, when he asked him a series of questions as to whether the cost of living in regard to certain commodities could be slashed. The word Deputy Cowan used was "slashed". Then at last came the final admission of the Taoiseach that all the suggestions of gigantic and illegal profits being made and of inflation were all wrong and that in fact the various reasons he gave—fairly good reasons—why the cost of living could not be reduced must be accepted by the House. Deputy Cowan was told once and for all that prices could not and would not be slashed.

I mention that because it is just as well to remind the House that the cost-of-living index has remained vrtually the same ever since the Government came into office. It is the Fianna Fáil cost-of-living index and, if all that was stated during the elections was right and if there was a noticeable reduction in the price of commodities, it should be made to fall very quickly. The suggestion was made that the new cost-of-living index was a rather bogus invention of Fianna Fáil to conceal the increase in the cost of living. One can only assume, therefore, if that were the case and there had been any noticeable fall in the price of commodities, that the cost-of-living index would have bounded steeply downwards. In fact it has not done so, because none of these promises has been lived up to.

I should also advert to the fact that the Government cannot take credit for the increases in wages which are being paid in relation to the cost of living of road workers and agricultural workers. My memory may be wrong, but I think that when the Fianna Fáil Government came into office 16 years ago the wages paid to that class of the community were scandalously low, varying from 18/- to 25/-. Hardly a year passed during the lifetime of the former Government that the wages of that section of the community did not increase steadily and slowly towards the point at which they were when that Government went out of office. Moreover, these people were awarded all kinds of social services long before the old age pension was increased by 2/6 in the country districts. I am quite willing to make a present to the Government of any increase they made in the old age pension because, in relation to this whole question of the cost of living, it may be remembered that the social services provided for the needy in this country cost £4,000,000 when the previous Government came into office and when they left office they were costing something near £14,000,000. If the Government wish to boast of the increase of 2/6 in the old age pension or 5/-, if you include the extra contribution of the local authorities, they are entitled to do so. The conscience of this Party is quite clear, having regard to the enormous increases which took place during their time.

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether it would not be possible to ensure the subsidisation of tea and at the same time remove the rationing. It would be an excellent thing if tea could be bought on a free trade basis. I should like to ask him whether he considers there could not be some reduction in the price of tea if there were a free and liberal purchase of it and the ration ceased— whether he could envisage any reduction in the present price of tea.

There is not one person in the country who expects rationing to cease so long as the Government have to contribute £9,000,000 or £10,000,000 per year to subsidise various foodstuffs. No matter what talk we have heard, the fact remains that the Government have to come to the rescue and keep down the price of commodities by this subsidy of £9,000,000 or £10,000,000. I think the Government did very well when they increased the ration of tea from one and a half to two ounces and also increased the sugar and butter ration. They made sugar and tea available on what I call a free market at a very reasonable price. They made sugar available on a free market at 7½d. per lb. No matter what Deputy Childers may say, that meant the closing down of the black market in sugar. I am in business and travel around the country and I know that that black market existed and that van loads of sugar were offered at a shilling per lb. Those engaged in black-marketing lined their pockets at the expense of other people. When those engaged in the confectionery trade want a bag of sugar now they have not to go round the corner to see who is offering a bag. They can go to their wholesaler and order a ton of sugar at a reasonable price.

The same thing applies to tea. At one time people were prepared to pay 30/- a lb. for tea. Now they can get it for 5/6. I think that the ration of two ounces of tea at present is quite ample for the average person. Bread is also in ample supply. Owing to the bringing in of white bread a lot of people who used to use the ordinary bread are now prepared to pay an increased price for white bread, so that an increased amount of the ordinary bread is available for other people. The result is that there is no scarcity of bread throughout the country. I think nobody objects to the continuing of rationing in its present form.

There is one point to which I should like to draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention and that is the deterioration in the quality of flour recently. During the last fortnight or three weeks the quality of the flour has deteriorated a lot. I do not know whether that is due to an Order of the Department, but I take it for granted it is not. If there is to be an 85 per cent. extraction flour the people are entitled to get an 85 per cent. extraction flour and a reasonable quality at that. Some up-to-date mills are able to provide very good flour and have been producing it out of the 85 per cent. mixture. Other mills, not so well equipped, produce a much lower grade of flour. I have heard that the millers' association have issued an order that all mills must produce flour of the same quality—I might say of a worse description than that produced previous to the 85 per cent. extraction flour. I think that is a penalty on efficiency. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into that and have it corrected. If the people get an 85 per cent. extraction flour they should be entitled to a quality of bread equivalent to that.

Deputy Davin referred to house building and talked about the builders fleecing the people of Edenderry. I think there is a remedy for that which Deputy Davin might suggest to the local authority which is building these houses in Edenderry, and that is that they should build them by direct labour. We have done that in Kilkenny, and we find direct labour very satisfactory. We have built 125 houses by direct labour. I suggest to Deputy Davin that he should advise the local body there to start building its houses by direct labour. If it does that, it will get a more satisfactory house and at a reasonable price.

I have done so.

I want to say a few words on this Bill. I think the viewpoint of the average citizen is that the present cost of living is too high. Like the average citizen, I believe that it can, and should be reduced. That will require pretty stern action on the part of the Government. Within the provisions of this Bill, as it is before us, I do not think the Government have power sufficient to deal as drastically with that situation as it should be dealt with.

It was said here to-day that this Bill was designed to deal with an emergency. To some extent, the emergency has passed, but not altogether, because an emergency still exists in regard to essential commodities that must be imported. When discussing that I think we must have regard to the recent devaluation of the pound. Taking into account the problems that faced the Government when they came into office, that faced them during the past two years, and considering the taxation that they have remitted and the additional sums that they have had to provide, and adding to all that the sum that we provided here last night, a sum in excess of £4,000,000 in respect of transport, the community may count itself lucky that it has been possible to maintain prices at the present level. But I repeat the cost of living is undoubtedly too high.

If one tries to follow the cost of a commodity from the time of production to the time of consumption, one will find in between the producer and the consumer that unnecessary profits are being made, and, in order to tackle them, I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that this whole system of price control ought to be recast and a new Bill introduced giving the Minister and the Government power to deal with those excess profits. It is only in that way that the cost of living can be substantially reduced.

In the course of this debate, quite a number of commodities have been mentioned. The one thing that worries me is the existence of rings, of groups of people, who keep within their own grasp the control of essential commodities. I would like to see a Bill introduced which would give the widest powers to the Minister and the Government to deal with this unsocial or antisocial, unpatriotic and anti-national action of a group of people who form themselves into a ring for the purpose of controlling the distribution of a commodity, and of controlling the price at which that commodity is sold. One could speak here for a month on different items and of their cost to the consumer. The view that I hold is that, unless the Government take statutory powers to deal with excess profits at the place where they can do the least harm, there will be, and can be, no reduction in the cost of living. I have advanced that argument in each debate that has taken place on this subject. I think quite a number of Deputies are coming round to the view that that is the only effective means by which the cost of living can be slashed. The word "slashed" was mentioned by Deputy Childers. It is a word that was used during the general election campaign, and it is the vital word if any serious or substantial relief is to be given to the ordinary person in regard to the price of commodities.

I think we should realise and appreciate the difficulties that have faced the Minister and the Government in regard to this. There was a tremendous mess to be dealt with, and that cannot be done, unfortunately, in a day, or even in a year under our present system of government; but it is gradually being overtaken, and, as each Minister is getting familiar with the responsibilities and duties of his office, I think we can all look forward to more rapid progress in the future. I would again impress my view on the Parliamentary Secretary that it is only by taking extensive powers to control the cost of commodities, and by setting up whatever tribunals may be necessary to investigate this matter of prices and costs in public, that the problem can be dealt with. I suggest to him, to the Minister and the Government that at the earliest opportunity, they should bring in a new Bill that will give the Government absolute control over the cost of commodities and the power to make that reduction in the cost of living which the community, as a whole, wants.

It comes as a great disappointment to me that in this State, four years after the war ceased, the Government still find it necessary to impose these restrictions on supplies and services. I am sure that every housewife throughout rural Ireland and also in the towns and cities will be disappointed when she hears the system of rationing tea, sugar and butter is to continue for another year. It seems incredible that that should be so when one considers the ample stocks of tea and sugar that are in the country and that can be got if one agrees to pay extra charges. That condition of affairs is most unfair to the people. As Deputy Childers suggested, the Government should seriously consider putting tea on the same basis as in prewar days. At that time we could get tea at 2/- to 46 a lb., tea to suit anybody's purpose, and there were ample supplies of it. It is desirable that that system should be reintroduced and there is no reason why it should not be.

As regards butter, eight ounces of butter are considered an ample ration for the average person. But why should butter be rationed in an agricultural country, especially when there are ample supplies available? There are ample supplies on the black market and anybody living near the Border can testify to that. When this Government came into office we were assured that the cost of living would go down by leaps and bounds. Anybody who is honest must agree that that is not the case. If you go into any shop in Dublin you will find goods piled from the floor to the ceiling, but can anybody say that the price of men's, women's and children's clothing or boots and shoes has come down? I do not think anyone could say that. Those articles are just as dear to-day as they were during the emergency.

I was under the impression that this Government would change all that and that there would be bargains in every corner. At least that is the impression they gave the people when they were seeking election. It is disappointing to the women of Ireland to find that the cost of living has not gone down. They have nothing to be grateful for if they still have to watch every penny when they go out shopping. I am not talking about the people who can pay luxury prices for luxury goods. I am thinking of the men and women of rural Ireland and of the poor in our cities and towns. The Principal diet of these people consists of bread, butter, tea and sugar. They cannot afford a four-course lunch. The rich people can always have cake and confectionery and things like that. The people in the country drink a lot of tea. We Irish are famous for that, especially in the rural areas. The parliamentary Secretary should seriously consider de-rationing tea, sugar and butter.

The Minister for Agriculture promised, on the Vote for his Department, that there would be so much butter in this country he could export some of it. I do not think that is possible at the present time. Why should butter be exported when our own people, especially the children, are suffering for the want of more of it? During the emergency the rationing of butter was unavoidable. I must say a good job was done by the then Minister in the way of rationing. Everybody got a fair crack of the whip. Now if the poor want extra butter they have to pay a high price for it. It is about time that that should cease. I do not think it is considered a good policy in any country to have dual prices.

The practice of introducing white flour is almost tantamount to introducing a colour bar in this country. The white flour is for the luxury class, the people who can afford it. Deputy Childers said the ordinary country people look on the white loaf as a kind of luxury loaf. It is not at all as nutritious as the brown bread, but still they make every effort to buy it and they deprive themselves of some other commodity, which may be more essential, for the sake of having a white loaf. I suggest it was a bad thing to introduce that type of class distinction. The majority of our people are people of ordinary means and they should not be made to feel that the rich can have white loaves when they have to deprive themselves of something else if they want to eat white bread.

The majority of our people are hard-working people, striving to live on moderate incomes, and it is time they were catered for. I think the Parliamentary Secretary should make a strong case for the de-rationing of the principal commodities which are used in every household—bread, butter, tea and sugar. There is no reason now, four years after the war, when there is an ample supply of commodities, that it should continue. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take serious notice of the remarks I have made.

It is quite obvious from the speech which Deputy Cowan made that he is working his passage back. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce ought to be getting the knife ready to kill the fatted calf. Before the general election of 1948. I do not think there was any public man in this country who was so scathing and so lurid in his references to the cost of living as Deputy Cowan.

We saw him humiliate himself by the speech which he made to-night. When commodities were scarce, when it was difficult to get bread or tea or sugar and when prices were correspondingly high, Deputy Cowan tried to induce the people of this country to believe that those prices were being kept at that inflated level by the deliberate action of the Government or by the callous neglect of the Government. To-day, in the short intervention which he has made in this debate, the whole purpose of his speech was to justify the present high cost of living, a cost of living that cannot be concealed even by the fact that the cost-of-living index is being deliberately and dishonestly faked.

Deputy Childers put a very pertinent question to the Parliamentary Secretary when he asked him would he give an assurance to the House that in computing the cost-of-living index the true price of commodities would be taken as the basis for calculation, that the price of the sugar which we have been told about would be taken at 7½d. per lb., that the price of tea would be taken at 5/6 and the price of bread and flour at the price at which those things have to be paid for in the free market. If this was done, then we would get some indication of the true cost of living. It is not done, of course, because the Government which came in on a campaign of mendacious misrepresentation has chosen by deliberate policy to try to deceive the people as to the real cost of commodities.

The Bill which we are discussing is a Bill which proposes to continue for another year an Act which was originally passed in 1946, almost four years ago. At the time when it was passed active hostilities had just ceased in Europe; a shortage which had been pronounced during the war had become at that time even more accentuated by reason of unfavourable harvests and for other causes; and it was clear to everyone at the date upon which this Bill was passed that the Government of the day should be endowed with special powers to deal with the conditions obtaining at that particular time. What was the fundamental purpose of this Bill? It is set out in Section 3 of the Bill, which says that:—

"The Government may authorise and provide for the regulation and control by or on behalf of the State of all or any supplies and services which are, in the opinion of the Government, essential to the life of the community, and, where the Government so thinks proper, the maintenance and provision of such essential supplies by or on behalf of the State and the provision and operation of such essential services by or on behalf of the State."

This Bill was enacted in order to enable the Government of the day to provide for the maintenance of the ordinary life and the economic activity of the country.

That is not the purpose for which the powers conferred by that Act are now being used. There is, relatively speaking, no shortage of any essential material except, perhaps, building materials; there is no need to control any exchange except, perhaps, that of currency; there is no need to ration any commodity except, perhaps, butter. These are the only things for which, so far as one can see, it is necessary to make any special provision at the present time: the control of building activities because some building materials are still in comparatively short supply and because the full quantum of labour is not available; the control of foreign exchange because of the precarious position in which we find ourselves due to a number of causes, which I do not propose to go into at the present moment, and perhaps—and only perhaps—the need to ration butter.

Yet, in this world of comparative plenty we still have bread rationing; we still have tea rationing; and we still have sugar rationing. For what purpose? So far as I can apprehend the argument of Deputy O'Higgins——

——of Deputy T.F. O'Higgins, Junior, it is in order to enable the Government to keep the poor of this country on short commons at the least possible expense to the Exchequer. That seems to be the primary purpose for which the extraordinary powers conferred on the Executive of the day by the Supplies and Services Act of 1946 are being retained by the present Government. I said we have plenty of bread, plenty of sugar, plenty to tea. There is no shortage of these commodities anywhere.

And plenty of bacon.

Not even Deputy O'Leary will contend that there is any shortage of these commodities. There is no shortage of these commodities anywhere except, let me emphasise, among the poor under this Government. I was struck by the cold philosophy which informed the speech of Deputy Tom O'Higgins and the speech of Deputy Crotty. Deputy Crotty who. I understand, is familiar with the economics of baking, said that the Government was doing very well if it provided six lbs. per week per head of bread for any family. I wonder would any Deputy who is familiar with the amount of bread consumed per head in any Dublin working-class family agree with Deputy Crotty's optimistic view of the situation.

Deputy O'Higgins seems to be well satisfied with the fact that this Dublin working-class family buys half its bread at the subsidised rate and has to pay an excessive price for the remainder. People who do heavy manual labour require in their dietary a greater proportion of fats and carbohydrates than do people who live sedentary lives. Yet, under this Government, which professes to be concerned with the welfare of the workers, we find that these people who want more sugar and more fats are confined, as I have said before, to a limited ration sold to them at a price at which they could have obtained it in the years 1945, 1946 and 1947 when world prices were much higher than they are to-day, and that, then, they have to satisfy their full appetite and their full need for these particular foods at prices which, according to the Deputies on the Government Benches, we might justifiably and warrantably charge to the richest element in the community.

Jam is almost a staple article of food in poorer households. They cannot buy butter; they have to use jam in order to make their bread more palatable. Yet, the price of jam to the working-class houses in the City of Dublin has been deliberately inflated in order to collect a heavy tax, surreptitiously imposed on sugar which, of course, is an essential raw material for the manufacture of jam. Deputy Crotty said that sugar could be sold at 6½d. a lb. It is being sold at 7½d.; the Government collects the difference. According to Deputy Cowan the Government which does that is doing very well and is going to have his support so long as he is permitted to remain, so long as such workers who helped to return him at the last general election permit him to continue to represent them.

You did not give the workers much when you were a Minister—2d. a day. You should not talk about them. For God's sake talk about something else.

Before the Deputy came into this House we provided the dependents of workers with widows' and orphans' pensions; we increased the old age pensions and we provided the workers with unemployment assistance and with children's allowances.

Surely the Deputy does not think that is relevant?

It is as relevant as the interruption of the Deputy.

Both interruptions were disorderly.

I know I was foolish. I should have ignored the Deputy's interruption.

The workers have known what you are for the past 16 years——

Deputy O'Leary should not interrupt and should give Deputy MacEntee a chance to speak.

County Wexford knows Deputy MacEntee. He would not sanction an increase in wages for the workers there.

The real fact of the matter is that this Act is being deliberately put to a perverted use. As I have shown, it was enacted by the Oireachtas in the first instance, in order to ensure the continuance and regulation of supplies which are essential to the life of the community. It has now become an instrument of discriminatory and hidden taxation. If if were not for this Act and for the powers which it has conferred upon the Minister and which he misuses, it would not be possible to collect that 1d. per lb. on sugar nor would it be possible to charge these dual prices for tea and bread and flour.

The Act is something worse than that, if anything can be worse than for a Government to treat the poorer element in the community with the harshness and severity with which they are being treated under this Government. It has become an instrument for prying into the conduct and management of businesses and undertakings which are not concerned, even in the remotest way, with the provision of essential commodities or the maintenance of essential services. Under this Act, or under an Order made under this Act, made at a time when it was justifiable to make such an Order, any "pip-squeak"—that is the term which the Minister for Industry and Commerce applied to his inspectors—can compel any person to produce any document relating to the conduct of his business that he, in his discretion, may demand.

Who made that Order?

It was made at a time when it was essential——

But who made it? Answer the question.

It was made in the year 1942 when it was essential, in order to ensure that price and rationing control would be properly maintained. The price control has gone, virtually gone, with this Ministry. There is no attempt being made to control the prices to-day of many commodities. I heard somebody ask a question. I think it was Deputy T.F. O'Higgins, Junior, who asked it when Deputy Allen was arguing that there should be, in the matter of food, a sufficient and ample supply provided for the poor of this country at a reasonable price. The question he asked was: "Does that mean that the Deputy would impose or re-impose the supplementary budget taxes?" Well, as far as I am concerned, and I want to answer that question to make my position clear, if it were essential, in order that the people of this country might be able to eat as much bread as they wished and to procure it at a uniform price, I would believe in taxing the pint in order to provide the bread. Further, there is certainly one thing which I would not do. If I revoked a price Order I would not revoke it in order that I might enable the publicans to put an extra 2d. a glass in their own pocket.

But, as I was saying—and that is only an aside—there is no real control of prices in this country now. There is no control of these essential prices. Bread, tea or sugar can all be bought far above what were formerly the regulation prices. Why, therefore, is it necessary to retain these extraordinary powers of inquisition into the management and conduct of business concerns? Is there any justification for it—except, I believe, to give an inflated and unnecessary staff something with which to occupy themselves? Accounts are being demanded; documents are being demanded in relation to business and business transactions which I do not believe are even read. While people are groaning under the burden of taxation, and we are told that it is not possible for this State to provide even a sufficient Defence Force for itself, money is being spent in collecting these documents and in compelling people to enter into unnecessary expense in order to provide them.

In my view, the Act in its present form is quite unnecessary. It was devised to deal with emergency conditions during a period of peculiar and acute difficulty. Those conditions have passed, not because of any merit of the Government but because Europe is producing more; because hostilities have ceased for over four years in Europe; because commerce is beginning to resume its normal trend and because more goods are flowing into this country, goods which were not available to us during the period of the war. For these reasons, the particular conditions of scarcity, with which this Supplies and Services Act of 1946 was intended to deal, are passing away and there is only a limited number of matters for the regulation and control of which a Government might legitimately and honestly and fairly ask to be endowed with special and exceptional powers. I have mentioned these matters: (1) to control building activities; (2) to control foreign exchange, and (3) in so far as it is necessary, to provide for butter rationing. Outside of these matters, what need is there to give the Government power, say, to demand accounts in respect of any undertaking as it stands at the moment? If you were running a beauty parlour or say Deputy O'Leary were running a beauty parlour

Would the Deputy be a customer?

——it would be possible for the Government to demand from Deputy O'Leary an account of how he used, sold and applied his cosmetics. Is there any justification, in the existing conditions of affairs, to give the Government a power so far-reaching and so inquisitorial as that? I agree that, in so far as it is necessary to control prices of essential commodities, the Government should have that power or some similar power but the Government has that power under the Control of Prices Act in relation to things which are essential. Why should they have similar powers in relation to the hundred and one business activities of ordinary people?

I think that if the House is going to pass a Bill to continue the extraordinary powers of the 1946 Act for another year, it should at least insist before it does so that many of the Orders which were validated by the Act of 1946, including those which give the Government special powers of investigation in cases where there can be no justification for such investigation on the grounds of the essential characters of the services, should be abrogated. I will agree that there is a limited field where the Government might be provided with powers such as are now asked for but I think the time has definitely come when, in order to restore freedom of trade, freedom of business and freedom of enterprise to the ordinary industrious man and woman in this country, powers of this sort given to our Government should be drastically curtailed. They are unnecessary; they are uneconomic. They do not result in any reduction in costs. On the contrary, they are one of the sources of annoyance, one of the inflationary influences, one of the crippling things which are hindering and hampering the restoration of ordinary economic life in this country.

I must say that I listened with some amazement at the audacity of Fianna Fáil speakers getting up here one after another, obviously all furnished with the same material and nearly all making the same type of set speech. When one listened to the complaints about the fact that rationing is still necessary, and the amazement which some Deputies expressed that it was still necessary in this country to ration butter, one could not fail to see behind it an effort to stimulate enthusiasm despite the flagging fortunes of the Opposition. It was an effort to overcome the effects of the recent by-election in Donegal, an effort to develop some line of attack which they hope will pay dividends; but when the facts are examined, when we see the rations of essential commodities now available and compare the supplies available to all persons with the conditions obtaining in February, 1948, it is obvious that the case that the Opposition has made has no foundation. For that reason they made their case with varying degrees of sincerity. Some of them knew that it was not true; others hoped that they would be able to make it sound effective. The strongest criticism was that the Government is still rationing tea, butter, sugar and flour, either because we want to save on subsidy expenditure or because, as some Deputies appear to think, the Government is making a profit out of the increased prices charged for the supplies of these commodities sold over and above the ration.

Deputies will remember that when this Government was elected on the 18th February, 1948, Deputy Lemass, referring to tea, said:

"The tea is there. So far as I have had responsibility for ensuring supplies in this country, I can say now that there is enough tea in the country to abolish rationing or to remove many of the restrictions upon the use of tea or to increases the present ounce-and-a-half ration to two ounces."

He went on to say that any step that would be taken to release more tea at the price then prevailing would mean an additional subsidy. Deputies will remember that in May of that year the ration was increased from one-and-a-half ounces to two ounces per person and that, by virtue of the increase in the ration, a sum of £400,000 was made available without any increased taxation.

Deputies will also remember that, under the previous administration, a ration of three-quarters of a pound of sugar was all that was available. Under this Government, we have made available extra sugar for those who want it at the economic price. We believe that it is only right that, if People want this extra sugar, it should be made available if they are prepared to pay for it. They are very glad to be able to get it. Deputy Corry suggested to-day that if we encourage beet growing we would have more sugar. The Irish Sugar Company has published advertisements this year showing that there is a net profit of £23 on every acre of beet produced and we have given every encouragement this year, by way of attractive prices, to beet growers to produce beet. It is up to them to do it, and the fact that we are making available extra sugar to those who pay the economic price and not making sugar available to everyone freely at the rationed price, is that quantities of sugar have to be imported. The amount of the subsidy in order to make the normal rationed supply of sugar available to the community is £1,000,000 per year. I do not believe that it is in the public interest, or that the public expects, that we should make sugar available freely at the rationed or the subsidised price, or that we should increase the amount of the subsidy.

A number of Deputies talked about butter. During the last year of the Fianna Fáil Administration, the control of butter continued for two-and-a-half years after the war, although conditions could have been created whereby the necessity for butter rationing in this country could have been removed. Deputies will, no doubt, recall the time when under the Fianna Fáil Administration the butter ration fell as low as two ounces per week. In another period, it was four ounces per week, and it was only during the period prior to the general election that the ration was raised to six ounces. Since last April this Government has been able to do much better than ever the Fianna Fáil Administration was able to do about butter. It is interesting to notice that none of the Deputies opposite has mentioned the disastrous results of their calf-slaughter policy while they were in office. Did any of them tell the House that it was part of the Fianna Fáil policy that the farmers should slaughter every innocent calf 48 hours after it arrived?

Now, we have Deputies on the opposite side asking us about the butter ration, and the possible duration of it, and forgetting to remember that during their period of office it never exceeded eight ounces. I have only to say that this Government hopes that it will be possible to maintain the ration at eight ounces henceforward. Questions have been raised about the maintenance of the rations of tea and sugar at subsidised and economic prices. I can tell the House that the supply situation is satisfactory but that the heavy incidence of subsidy, which will have to be borne by all sections of the community, would be greater, if butter, tea and sugar were made available at the rationed prices. Since the Government set up an inquiry into the whole bread and flour position, steps have been taken to reduce the heavy weight of subsidy, while at the same time making available to every person a supply of bread and flour over and above that made available at uneconomic prices, freely, to those who wish to purchase it.

A number of Deputies have referred to the building control and to the method of operation of that control. I think that Deputy Martin O'Sullivan in particular wanted to know what steps were being taken to see that essential building work would not be impeded by shortages of labour or difficulties in securing skilled operatives. The Government has had the responsibility for controlling building in so far as it may issue building licences. When the Government came into power, the building control was so operated that licences had to be got for local authority houses, and for subsidy houses, as well as for other building operations. Since the beginning of this year licences are no longer necessary for local authority houses or for houses built under subsidy, but at the same time, we have had to restrict the issue of licences for non-essential work and no house may be built the cubic capacity of which exceeds 28,000 feet. Formerly there was no limitation, and cinemas could also be built. Every possible endeavour has been used to secure priority for essential works and it may be of interest to Deputies to know that the number of local authority houses in course of contruction is over 10,000 as compared with 3,000 local authority houses in construction 18 months ago. The total number of houses being built under local authorities, and by persons availing themselves of grants of one kind or another, shows, indeed, a gratifying increase. It is true that there is no direct control over the supply of labour. Deputy Martin O'Sullivan was anxious to know what labour was working on what particular type of building. The only figures I have available now are that approximately 60 per cent. of all the building work in the course of construction throughout the country is devoted to housing, so that the overwhelming amount of building is devoted towards housing, whether it is local authority housing or houses covered by subsidy under the Housing Acts or in the limited case of houses being built by people with the aid of subsidies.

Deputy O'Sullivan also asked whether there is control on the materials used in building. Some of them are controlled by Order. I have in mind such things as cement blocks and slates. In some of these cases, the control is operated by the manufacturers; in others it is operated by Order. Some of these controls are operated by arrangement under an agreement for a permitted profit for the manufacturer. There are agreements with regard to paints, nails, copper tubes and steel windows.

Deputies referred to the fact that it was difficult to understand the variation in prices of houses between one district and another and they asked why such high costs should operate at the present time. As Deputies are aware, a number of factors enter into building costs. One, which is easily ascertained, is the wage levels prevailing in the district. Another, which is having some effect, and which no Deputy has adverted to, is that output at present in the building industry is lower than it was in 1939, and over and above that is the contributing factor of the cost of raw materials. I think it is true to say that one of the strongest influences inflating the prices of houses, particularly since the war, was the amount of money available for people purchasing houses.

Deputies will remember that money was freely available at one time to people wishing to purchase houses, and that at a certain stage, there was a stoppage in the advancement of money to people wishing to purchase houses. No other factor was as important as that. Houses were not valued for the prices charged for them and it displayed an extraordinary mentality on the part of sections of the community, normally regarded as conservative that they suddenly, regardless of the inconvenience it caused limited the amount of the advances available. However, as Deputies have no doubt noticed, and I think it has been appreciated by the public generally, the price of houses has been showing a downward trend. I believe that the biggest factor in this downward trend is the reluctance of people to pay high prices. It is true that there are some instances of individual inconsistencies like the case mentioned by Deputy Davin. If the Deputy furnishes me with full particulars I will endeavour to have these cases investigated. It is a strange fact that in the same county, in areas not very far apart, the cost of local authority houses should vary quite considerably. It is equally true that neighbouring counties vary even more, and for no apparent reason.

A number of Deputies raised the question of price control and some suggested that the powers contained in this Act should no longer be used because the emergency has passed and justification for the use of these powers no longer exists. I do not believe that that is so and I do not agree with Deputy MacEntee that we should not use the powers as in some instances the price of essential commodities would rise. While there may be a case for permanent legislation or machinery to examine prices generally and advise the Minister on the most effective system of price control, a price control system must meanwhile be operated by the Department.

Deputy Lemass asserted that where prices were going to rise the Minister decontrolled, and where they were going to fall he continued the control in order to show the effect of control and evade responsibility. I will give Deputies some cases of reductions in price effected by direct Order of the Minister: margarine, candles, dried peas, currants, prunes, raisins, corn-flour, timber, soap and bicycles. These things were all reduced in price by direct Order. The price of some commodities have gone up since they were decontrolled, such as whiskey, sausages, biscuits and footwear. I do not know whether Deputies regard whiskey as an essential. I think it was Deputy Corry who asked me why the price should rise. Every farmer Deputy should know that the price of barley has increased under this Government from 40/- a barrel to 50/- a barrel. The price payable by the maltsters has been decontrolled and they now pay their growers under contract 57/6. Under Fianna Fáil there was control to such an extent that they were limited to 40/-. An obvious deduction from the fact that the price paid to farmers has been raised is that the maltsters must raise their price as well. While it is the desire and aim of the Government that every step that can be taken will be taken to keep prices down, the prices of non-essentials are not nearly so important.

Do I understand the Parliamentary Secretary to say that the present increased price of whiskey is due to an increased price being paid by the maltsters?

I understand that the price of barley has gone up and consequently the maltsters are obliged to pay a higher price for their raw materials.

That is whiskey that will be sold in seven years' time.

Under Fianna Fáil the price of barley, despite control, was high, as was the price of many other raw materials.

Maltsters have not increased their price.

Has Deputy Davern increased the price of whiskey himself?

The answer is no.

What about the hundreds of farmers who are not able to dispose of their barley?

Very few farmers are unable to dispose of their barley. Commodities for which applications were made to the Minister for an increased price—and he resisted the applications—include fresh meat— although we had an appeal last year from two Fianna Fáil Deputies to consider increasing the price of meat, pork, milk, stout and porter. The machinery available to the Government to keep prices under control has been effectively used. I agree with Deputy Larkin that the searchlight of public opinion on prices very often is the best sanction and the present system has the drawback that public confidence is not as strong for a system which they cannot see operating as it would be if all could be present at the examination of a particular case or read of it afterwards.

While the prices of many commodities are controlled at present as a result of emergency or post-emergency conditions, up to the present it has not been found possible to have suitable machinery of a permanent character. Undoubtedly the best type of machinery and the one which is in general most effective is free competition, but in the absence of free competition due to abnormal conditions and the scarcity of many commodities, the Government have decided for the present not to establish any permanent system of price-fixing machinery, either a tribunal or otherwise. Any of these powers that are necessary to control prices and secure a fair deal for the public will be put into operation. However distasteful inquisitions into individual businesses may be, if a case is made to the Government that control should be imposed or reimposed on the price of essential commodities or commodities in general use, then that control will be imposed.

The general administration of price control has been reasonably effective. I think that the fact that it has been possible to stabilise prices at the present level, despite the rise in the price of a number of raw materials and increased costs abroad, is in itself a tribute to the present system of price control and Government policy. It is no harm to mention in that regard that the general wage level of persons in insurable employment rose last year by 4 per cent. and other increases occurred earlier, so the income of persons purchasing goods is now far in excess of what it was when the Standstill Order was in operation and the prices of some commodities were even higher then than they are at the present time.

Some Deputies asked individual queries about particular matters. I will have them examined and any particular cases brought to the notice of the Deputies.

Deputy Cowan mentioned a more general question, the question of rings and restrictive trade practices. As the Minister announced recently in the Dáil, a full inquiry is at present being conducted into cases of restrictive practices either in the form of rings or where organisations refused to admit new members or refused to supply people who wished to get certain types of goods. Whatever steps are necessary after that inquiry has been completed will be taken and whatever legislation is required will be brought before the Dáil in the ordinary way, when Deputies will have adequate opportunities to express their views on it. I think it sufficient to say that the Government was disturbed at the number of cases where organisations, with either large or small membership, refused to permit new entrants or refused to supply persons who wished to secure whatever facilities those organisations offered.

In a number of cases, this situation has proved quite intolerable and because of the widespread nature of the complaints as well as the widespread types of trades affected, a full inquiry covering every aspect of it has been undertaken and proposals are at present in the course of preparation under which, I hope, these undesirable practices may be restricted.

Will the inquiry be conducted into certain sections of Deputy Larkin's union?

I do not know about trade union activities, as there is ample power available to the Department of Justice to conduct any inquiries they like into matters of that kind; but full inquiry will be made into cases of industrialists who charge excessive prices or who make excessive profits and who then sign circulars saying that they think it is in their best interests that the Fianna Fáil Party should be supported, such as we had in the past. I think this Bill is necessary and Deputies familiar with the requirements of the country appreciate it. I suppose it is only human to allow the Opposition to try to make some capital out of it. The fact is that there are now generally available, either at fair prices or in many instances at lower prices, greater supplies of goods and particularly of goods essential to the people, than at any time in recent years. The fact that the people appreciate this was amply demonstrated in the recent election. The Government has no apology to make for asking for a continuance of these powers, to see that the essential commodities are made available at reasonable prices, that price control is made effective, that other essential controls, such as building, are so operated that those in need of houses will get them and will not get merely a promise that the plans are there but not get that promise put into practice. It is unnecessary to say that these powers must be continued for another year.

Some Deputies mentioned the supply of petrol and were anxious that we should discontinue rationing. As I mentioned in introducing the Bill, petrol has a dollar content and at the moment it is not deemed safe to de-ration it while the present rather uncertain conditions prevail. We have adequate supplies and the present ration is adequate. I can assure Deputies that wherever we can de-ration or de-control any commodity we will do so. We have given ample evidence already of that and, as I mentioned at the outset, the control has been taken off a number of commodities in the last year. A full list of the Orders at present in force will be published in the near future.

No Government, and least of all the present Government, has any desire to retain unnecessarily controls that are not required, but some of the essential commodities that are being subsidised must still be rationed. The fact that they are available at two prices does not cause the Government any concern and, so far as we are aware, it does not cause the public any undue concern. If supplies improve and if the cost of these commodities comes down, we will immediately take steps to de-control them. When Deputies mention that they would like to have tea available as it was pre-war, when you could buy it at 2/- a lb., my answer is: "So would we; if Deputies opposite can get tea for this Government at 2/- a lb. we will employ them to purchase it, but we have not been able to find it, nor has any of the persons concerned in the tea trade." Suggestions of that kind are put forward merely to delude the people, to try to force them to the view that the Government is maintaining controls which are no longer required. We will only retain controls as long as they are required and once the need for them has ended they will be withdrawn.

Could the Parliamentary Secretary say what was the excuse or justification, if any, given by the boot manufacturing firms or by those forcing up the price of building materials?

That case is being examined and when I have a reply I will let the Deputy know.

Did not the price of leather go up?

One is due probably to the price of imported leather; the other is due to a small increase in the price paid for hides and skins.

Is it due to any extent to devaluation?

I do not know if that is so or not. We are inquiring into it.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary say, in view of his statement that the Government does not desire to retain these exceptional powers longer than is necessary, why he requires businesses like advertising agencies to present their accounts to him?

The Deputy has an interest in it?

I do not know about advertising agencies. They are hardly an essential service, but generally businesses that are supplying or manufacturing goods are required to present their accounts, either on the basis of a controlled profit arrangement under which they are operating or alternatively on fixed price for the particular article.

But if the business is neither a manufacturing nor a distributing concern, what justification is there for applying Order No. 173 to it?

I do not know about the type of case to which the Deputy refers, but it can be inquired into. As the Deputy knows, firms of that sort are also subject to examination by the Revenue Commissioners.

I know, but the Revenue Commissioners have ample powers. They do not require these special powers.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

Now, if there is no objection.

There is. I want to raise this other question on the Committee Stage in some detail.

The question of advertising agents?

The question I have raised incidentally, that businesses which are neither manufacturing nor distributing are required on demand to present all or any documents relating to their business that the Minister may require.

Who made that law?

It does not matter who made it. The present Minister is trying to apply it quite unnecessarily.

A Deputy

There was no objection from Fianna Fáil, when they were in power, to that law.

This is 1949 — not 1942.

The Deputy was not interested in that business at that time.

Mr. de Valera

It does not matter what the interest is. The work of the House has to be done.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 6th December.
Top
Share