Rinneadh a lán tagairt do nithe a bhaineann leis an nGaeilge agus b'fhéidir ná tógfar órm é ma dhéanaim tagairt dóibh san ar dtuais. Déanadh tagairt don chló Rómhánach, do leabhra a chur amach, don nGúm agus do labhairt na Gaeilge, chomh fada is a bhaineann siad le hobair na scol. I dtaobh an chló Rómhánaigh, ní chuireann an Roinn Oideachais leabhra i gcló in aon chor; is iad na gnáth-fhoilsitheoiri trádála a dhéanann é sin. Nuair a chuireann siad mianach labhair le chéile cuireann siad fé bhráid na Roinne é féacaint an bhfuil an mianach go maith agus má thaithníonn mianach an leabhair leis an Roinn cuirtear ar liosta na leabhar scoile é agus cuirtear amach é. Níl aon chath idir múinteoirí agus bainisteoirí agus clódóirí agus foilsitheoiri i dtaobh an chló Rómhánaigh. Níl bac orthu aon leabhar a chur amach sa chló Rómhánach agus ni bheadh col ag an Roinn le leabhar mar sin, ach ní cuirtear leabhra mar sin chugainn. Ní mian leis an Roinn bheith ag brúgh isteach ar chlódóirí. Más mian leis na clódóirí leabhra a chur amach mar sin tá an ceart sin acu agus ní chuirfidh an Roinn bac leo.
Is dóigh liom go gcuireann an chaint a déantar ar an gcuma sin isteach ar obair na Gaeilge. Ní dóigh liom go mbaineann litriú, cló agus rudaí mar sin le beatha na Gaeilge ar aon chor. Níl na daoine atá i bhfábhar na Gaeilge ar aon fhocal i dtaobh an chló Rómhánaigh agus ní ró-mhór a chuireann rudaí mar sin isteach ar obair na scol. Is féidir a fheicsint más mian le foilsitheoir leabhar a chur amach sa chló Rómhánach, ó thaobh na Roinne de nach bhfuil aon bhac orthu.
I dtaobh an scrúdú béil, ní dóigh liom go dtuigtear in aon chor cad iad na deacrachtaí atá ag baint le scrúdú béil, chomh fada agus a bhaineann le hobair na scoile. Tá breis agus 400,000 páistí sna bun-scoileanna agus tá timpeall le 43,000 scoláirí sna méan-scoileanna. B'fhéidir nach dteastaíonn ó na daoine atá ag lorg scrúdú béil go gcuirfí scrúdú ar gach páiste sna bun-scoileanna agus sna meán-scoileanna. Tuigim nach é sin atá in a n-aigne, ach más rud é atá in a n-aigne go gcaithfí scrúdú a chur ar pháisti ag dul isteach i gcóir na bun-teistiméireachta, tá 30,000 páistí ag dul isteach gach bliain i gcóir na teistiméireachta sin agus 15,000 ag dul isteach ar an meán-teistiméireacht agus an árd-teistiméireacht. Dá mbeadh orainn cigirí a chur timpeall chun scrúdú béil a chur orthu sin, bheadh 45,000 scoláirí ann chun scrúdú béil a chur orthu agus tá timpeall le 80 cigirí chun an obair sin a dhéanamh. Cad cuige a ndéanfaí é? Dá mba rud é go gcaithfí é a dhéanamh agus marcanna a thabhairt de bharr na scrúduithe sin sa scrúdú i gcóir na bun-teistiméireachta taobh istigh de mhí amháin, agus an rud céana a dhéanamh i dtaobh na méanteistimeireachta agus na hard-teistiméireachta ní doígh liom go bhféadfaí na cigirí d'fháil chuige sin. Ansin, dá mb'fhéidir iad d'fháil agus dá mb'fhéidir leo é a dhéanamh gan dul as a meabhair leis an méid sin oibre agus é a dhéanamh taobh istigh d'aon mhí amháin, ní dóigh liom go mbeadh na tuismitheoirí, na páistí, na múinteoirí ná na cigirí sásta gurbh fhéidir caighdeán cruinn a bheith i scrúdú mar sin. Dá mba rud é gur ghá marcanna a thabhairt agus go mbeadh toradh as na marcanna san i dtreo go mbeadh teip nó pas á thabhairt do na páistí bheadh deacracht mhór ag baint leis sin agus ní dóigh liom gur féidir é a dhéanamh. I dtaobh labhairt na Gaeilge, ní dóigh liom gur gá é mar chuid den obair a dhéanann na cigirí sna scoileanna, is scrúdú béil í, agus tuigeann siad an bhail atá ar an Ghaeilge sna scoileanna. Ní bail ró-olc í ach a mhalairt ar fad-bail mhaith í, is dóigh liom.
Is é an rud a bhíonn ag priocadh daoine chun gearáin a dhéanamh i dtaobh labhairt na Gaeilge sna scoileanna ná go mb'fhéidir go mbíonn faitíos ar na páistí an Ghaeilge a labhairt taobh amuigh den scoil. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil cúis leis sin. Níl mórán Gaeilge á labhairt ag na daoine fásta agus tá a lán daoine agus níl aon tsuim in aon chor acu sa Ghaeilge. Ní maith le páiste bheith ait agus nuair ná bíonn suim sa Ghaeilge mórthimpeall orthu, ní maith leo sin a dteanga a chur isteach sa chaint. Dá mbeitheá ag seasamh ar an sráid i mBaile Átha Cliath ag caint le cara agus ag caint as Gaeilge agus scata páistí timpeall, is gairid a bheidís ann gan bheith ag cur isteach focal—"Dia is Muire dhuit" nó ceist eigin a chur ort. Tá suim ag na páistí sa Ghaeilge agus tá an Ghaeilge acu i bhfad níos fearr ná meastar atá, agus, dá mbeadh fhios ag na páistí go bhfuil suim ag na daoine fásta sa Ghaeilge, bheadh gríosadh ann dóibh an Ghaeilge a labhairt. Pointe fé léith atá ann, agus, im thuairimse, thiocfadh fás agus athrú air sin agus bheadh i bhfad níos mó Gaeilge á labhairt ag na páistí dá dtuigeadh na daoine fásta a bhfuil an Ghaeilge acu go mba mhaith leis na páistí iad a chloisint. Is maith leis na páistí an Ghaeilge a chloisint mórthimpeall orthu.
I dtaobh an Ghúim is minic a cloistear gearán, agus deineadh roinnt gearán annseo, i dtaobh an Ghúim, go gcuireann siad moill ar an obair atá ar siúl acu agus go bhfuil a lán saghsanna leabhra nach gcuireann siad amach in aon chor. Tá deacrachtaí ag baint le hobair foilsitheoirí as Gaeilge. I dtaobh an Ghúim, pé ar domhan é, nuair a thagann lámhscríbhinn isteach, caithfear an lámhscríbhinn sin a mheas. Ní dóigh liom go mbeadh an t-údar sásta go bhfágfaí an meas san ag Stát-Sheirbhíseach, agus caithfear an lámhcríbhann a chur amach go dtí léitheoir éigin taobh amuigh, duine ná fuil aon bhaint aige leis an Stát-Sheirbhís. Go minic nuair a thagann an lámhscríbhinn thar n-ais, bíonn moladh ag gabháil leis ón léitheoir, ag rá gur ceart athrú a dhéanamh anseo agus ansúd. Tá cuid de na húdar agus ní bhíonn siad sásta le haon athrú a dhéanamh. Go minic, is gá an lámhscríbhinn a chur amach go dtí léitheoir eile agus bíonn deacrachtaí ag baint leis agus bíonn moill ar an obair ón taobh sin.
Ansin i dtaobh na gclódóirí, deirtear gur féidir le clódóirí, taobh amuigh de na clódóirí a bhíonn ag obair don Ghúm, leabhra a chur amach go tapaidh. Is féidir. Tá a ngléas féin acu agus tá na clódóirí féna smacht agus is féidir leo iad a chur ag obair, ach nuair a chuireann an Gúm leabhra amach go dtí clódóir ní bhíonn smacht ag an nGúm ar na clódóirí, agus má tá a lán oibre ag na clódóirí á dhéanamh i mBearla, is fearr go mór a bhíonn na clódóirí sásta an obair i mBéarla a chur amach, mar is fuiriste leo é, agus dá bhrí sin tá deacrachtaí ag baint leis an obair ón taobh sin leis.
I dtaobh a thuille saghasanna leabhra a chur amach, is deacair leis an nGúm bheith ag dul amach ag tathant ar scríbhneoirí leabhra a chur le chéile agus níl an oireadh sin scríbhneoirí Gaeilge sa tír agus ba mhaith linn, ach tá a lán daoine ann agus is dóigh leo gur scríbhneoirí iontacha iad nach bhfuil mórán Gaeilge in aon chor acu agus is ó na daoine seo a thagann an chuid is mó den gearán. Tá beagán baint agam leis an obair agus gidh go mba mhaith liom an scéal d'iniúchadh níos cruinne, is dóigh liomsa gur ar na léitheoirí uaireannta, agus ar na húdair agus ar na clódóirí atá an milleán i dtaobh na moille atá ann. Is mar sin atá an scéal ó thaobh na Roinne agus táimid ag iarraidh gach is féidir linn a dhéanamh chun an scéal a leigheas agus leanfaimid den obair sin. Ba mhaith liom go dtuigfeadh na Teachtaí go léir go bhfuil deacrachtaí ann agus nach bhfuil cumhacht ná leigheas ag an nGúm ná an Roinn Oideachais ar na deacrachtaí is mó is cúis leis an moill sin.
Deineadh caint i dtaobh na Gaeltachta agus tuigim go maith go gcaithfear an Ghaeilge a choimeád slán ansin. Táimid tar éis cigire fé leith a chur síos ann. Tá 77 scoileanna i nDún na nGall agus cigire i mbun obair na scoile ansin. Tá 80 scoil i nContae Mhuigheo agus i gContae na Gaillimhe agus iad go léir sa bhfíorGhaeltacht. Tá cigire ann i gcóir gach Fíor-Ghaeltacht agus cigire i gcóir Gaillimh agus Muigheo, ach sa Mhumhan, tá Gaeltacht agus Breac-Ghaeltacht fé chúram an chigire. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na múinteoirí i ngach ceantar ansin as ucht an chabhair atá tugtha do na cigirí san obair atá ar siúl acu agus as an suim mhór atá ag na múinteoirí san obair sin.
Luas cheana go bhfuil níos mó ná obair na scoile fé iniúchadh na gcigirí. Bhí áthas ar chuid de na Teachtaí gur tugadh níos mór airgid i gcóir drámaí i mbliana. Is é obair na gcigirí sin a chuir isteach im aigne é sin a dhéanamh. Do réir mar a raghaidh an fiosrúchán chun cinn, beidh fhios againn cad eile is féidir a dhéanamh. Tá fhios agam gur féidir a lán a dhéanamh.
Cuireadh a lán rudaí fé bhraíd an Aire Talmhaíochta i dtaobh Dún Chuinn. Cuireadh cigire talmhaíochta síos ansin agus cuir sé deich nó dhá cheann déag de na scéimeanna ar siúl i nDún Chuinn. Bhí cigire ansin tamall gairid ó shoin, agus deir sé go mbeidh an ceantar sin ina shampla don tír ar fad i dtaobh cad is féidir a bhaint as talamh maith mar sin, nuair a chuireann na daoine sa cheantar chuige i gceart. Tá fhios agam go mbeidh toradh maith ar an obair sin.
Luadh, leis, a thábhachtaí atá sé hallaí a bheith i gceantar mar sin. Ba mhór an rud é dá mbeadh halla paróiste fé cúram lucht na hEagalise sna ceantracha sin, i dtreo go mbeadh an séipéal, an scoil agus an halla paróiste mar thrí tacaí do shaol na ndaoine agus cultur na ndaoine sna ceantracha sin. Pé rud is féidir liom chun cabhrú le muintir na Gaeltachta chun hallaí a thógáil sna paróistí sin, déanfaidh mé é.
Cuireadh ceist i dtaobh cad tá ar siúl againn i dtaobh foclóir. Tá roinnt duine ag obair ar an bhfoclóir agus, gidh go bhfuil a lán den obair déanta, nílmid réidh go fóill chun an foclóir a chur i gcló. Dá mbeimis i ndon roinnt chúntóirí eile d'fháil chuige ní bheadh sé ró-fhada go dtí go mbeadh an obair i dtreo againn chun é d'fhoilsiú. Is deacair linn, uaireanta, cúntóir d'fháil, go mór mór ó Mhuigheo, Corcaigh agus Ciarraidhe. Táimis ag lorg cabhrach chun críoch a chur leis.
Nuair a cuirfear an foclóir amach, beidh sé sa litriú nua, nó beidh saghas nua lithrithe ann a socrófar sa deire agus beidh sé sa cló Rómhánach. Nuair adeirim go soerófar faoi chló, be mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil coiste beag ag déanamh scagadh deireannach ar na moltaí a tugadh dúinn i dtaobh an chaighdeáin nua agus táimid ag súil go mbeidh an obair sin críochnuithe acu sar i bhfad, agus tiocfaidh sé faoi bhráid roinnt daoine ansin agus is sa chaighdeán nua a clóbhuailfear an foclóir.
Dhein an Teachta Ciot caint mar gheall ar leabharlann i gcóir scoileanna sa Ghaeltacht. Ba mhaith an rud é sin, agus is fíor go bhféadfadh lucht na gComhairle Contae an-chabhair ar fad a thabhairt san obair sin.
Deineadh tagairt dá lán rudaí nuair a bhí an díospóireacht ar siúl ar an Meastacháin. Féachfaidh mé isteach ina lán de na ceisteanna sin agus, más féidir liom an obair a chur chun cinn in aon cheann acu, déanfad é.
The general discussion covered a very wide range and I can undertake that the various matters mentioned here will be very carefully examined. There are some broad questions on which, perhaps, it would be well for me to concentrate. There was a very considerable amount of talk on the question of responsibility for the conditions in the schools and the cost of schools. That is a question we must stand well back from and take a good look at, to see where the responsibility for education should rest and what exactly we mean by education.
I want to say how gratified I was by the general spirit in which the various matters were discussed. There has been a certain amount of criticism of the situation and, perhaps, of my approach to it, but I appreciate that that criticism is brought forward with a pure educational approach. I quite appreciate the spirit in which it was made and particularly the co-operative spirit in which practically all the criticisms and suggestions were made here. It is very important to take advantage of that spirit and to realise that it reflects the spirit outside and to try and catch the mind of the people in the matter and to harness that mind to something that will improve the situation with regard to our educational machine and encourage the people to think on constructive lines. There has been so much confusion on this question of responsibility and cost, and there have been so many conflicting approaches in the matter, that I feel we ought to do something to try and see what we mean.
In the Standard of 21st April there is a short account of an address given at the Christus Rex Society Congress in Belfast by the Rev. F. MacLarnon, D.D., Principal of St. Patrick's Academy, Dungannon, in which he stated:—
"Not only behind the Iron Curtain, but in the so-called free world, the fundamental right of the family as the educator is either denied or ignored. The modern ‘democratic' State with its pettifogging benevolism, feels that it must not only control and regulate education, but even enjoy a monopoly of education, by providing a system of State schools, to which all children shall go. Those children who do not go to the State schools are the eccentric few, and they shall be made to pay dearly for such exclusivism. This is a view that must be challenged, for it is unjust to the family's rights which are founded upon the natural law. It is not the function of the State, as such, to educate. The setting up of a system in which all citizens would receive a standardised education in schools built and run by the State was an invasion of the natural rights of parents. The school should be an extension of the home, not an extension of Parliament."
That means something, and we must particularly realise that it means something when we see the enormous sacrifices that the Catholic community in the United States are making to provide their own Catholic schools and pay every halfpenny of the cost of these schools from their own purses, and alongside that a system where the State provides everything, school, books and teachers, and when we see the sacrifices which are made by Catholics in Great Britain to keep complete control of their own Catholic schools. We have not that danger here to contend with, and it is because we have not the danger that the State is going to take a purely State control over the schools, without sweeping religion out of them, endangering parental and Church rights in matters of education, that we are free to slip along a road of error and that I think, from a lot of the discussion that we hear here and a lot of discussion and suggestions made outside, we are cavilling.
I do not want to blame Deputy McCann in any way, but just to take his speech as an example. Deputy McCann says that the State should pay for the cost of all primary schools and the cost of technical schools in the City of Dublin. Then we get a suggestion that our schools are unclean and badly kept and that we should turn to the State for assistance in remedying that condition. The present position is that, according to the regulations, the State provides two-thirds of the cost of building a school, two-thirds of the cost of improving a school, and one-half of the cost of heating and cleaning up to a particular amount and gives other grants, but that it is the local responsibility to pay one-third of the cost of building, one-third of the cost of improvements, and one-half of the cost of heating and cleaning and that such requisites as are required, outside the small things, to carry on the work of the school should be provided either by the manager or the teacher.
If the people in any particular parish want to take up the attitude that the State must provide for the building of schools, the equipment of schools and the cleaning of them, I say that you are completely surrendering and destroying any sense of Christian responsibility in relation to education. As I showed by the figures I produced, last year we provided more than two-thirds of the cost; that we provided 83 per cent. of the cost of schools built last year and something like that figure for the year before. Therefore the local contribution was only about 17 per cent.
Let us try and get clear what we do expect the parents and the parish to provide for the institution that is the local school. There has been discussion here as to the feasibility of having parish halls, and I consider the best way in which the life of a parish would be supported in its institutional life would be by the church and the school and the parish hall. You have a parish hall in some places but not in others. In the absence of a parish hall, it has been suggested that the school sometimes was available as a parish hall in certain places, I think in Donegal, and that that practice stopped and the commercial hall came into being. If there is not a hall, at any rate the parish ought to hold on to its church and its school and to its sense of some responsibility for maintaining them.
When you hear the volume and the nature of the complaint that the State should clean the schools, put them in a better condition and build new schools, I think that is a breakdown of a fundamental part of the Irish character and I would hesitate very much to move any particular distance to surrender to that. The State may have to help to a greater extent than it has helped, but let it be clearly understood that, before the State is called on for any more help, a sense of local responsibility has to be clearly defined and accepted. But, if in response to a call that comes from certain places spread all over the country, we slither along the line of taking on the State responsibility for all these things that are put up to us because some outhouses are dirty, there is no water here, the roof of one school is falling in and there are not cloakrooms in another, and go along the line of relieving local responsibility of its burden of maintaining schools, I think we are undermining something fundamental in the character of our people, fundamental to the maintenance of our traditions, and that we are not only weakening parochial but parental responsibility. When Deputies asked that there should be free education, meaning that every child who goes into a primary school is to be provided with books, pencils, paper, etc., I think it is absolutely an attack on the family. It is as big an attack on the family as some of the attacks about which Dr. MacLarnon has spoken because it is more insidious and it is absolutely unnecessary. I cannot conceive that the wages policy of the workers in this country is pursued on the lines that they do not expect to have to buy books and the ordinary school requisites for their children that, I have indicated, run from something like 2/6 or 5/- a year at the bottom to 12/6 on top, in the primary schools. I would point out that certain grants are available to all schools at present for necessitous children, where they are required. They have not been used to the extent to which they are available in all the schools. I do not propose to suggest that these grants should be increased in any way.
I received, after a kindergarten course in Cork last year, a round-robin from the teachers attending the course saying that the course was beautiful and expressing thanks for it but that it would be twice as beautiful if they could get the materials in their schools to put the results of what they learned during the course into operation for the children. It was a very apt and pointed presentation to make to the Minister for Education but I would point out that the Minister for Education does not provide these things. It is the local responsibility. I do not want to interfere with that responsibility until those who, more than anybody else, are concerned with keeping local responsibilities in evidence and active in these matters make very clear and definite representations in the matter. The Church authorities have a problem there. They have the problem of the cost of things at the present time, the difficulty of getting money, and so forth. In so far as the Hierarchy envisage that problem and want additional State consideration of it, I am prepared to face these matters and to discuss them. However, I do not think that, out of either any general complaint in the newspapers or general discussion here that, in my opinion, injures parochial responsibility, I should move in the matter in any way.
The cost of schools is great and the number of schools which require to be improved or erected is great. It would be very easy to have an estimate of that. I appreciate the difficulties of managers when they feel that they are not able to get their plans pressed ahead as quickly as they think they ought, and I appreciate the difficulties of people who look at schools that are in a bad condition and feel that it is wrong that their children should have to attend such schools. It is wrong, but I would point out that the wrong is a breakdown of local sense of responsibility at the present time. That is a thing that has grown out of certain circumstances and it will have to be faced up to in time.
From 1945 to date, the Department of Education made certain allocations every year for new schools. In these years, on allocations made by the Department of Education to the Board of Works for the carrying out of schools, the Board of Works has accumulated £1,000,000 arrears in school building. They increased very substantially the work they had estimated to do last year. They overran their financial commitments. I should like to see the Board of Works doing a lot more than it is doing and I shall do everything I can to see that the finance is provided for it. However, as Deputy Dr. Brennan mentioned here to-day, the money which is provided in these Estimates, although it does not include the buildings, would not half cover even the necessary and vital things that it has been suggested in this debate should be done. On the question of responsibility and cost, I want to ask for both some more consideration by Deputies on the spot as to what the sense of local responsibility should be and as to where the cost should rest.
There has been a very considerable amount of talk about houses—the dirt of houses, the lack of care of houses, the absence of water and the absence of proper sanitary accommodation in even some of the new schools. In every place where water is available, in any new school at the present time, flush lavatories are being put in with a septic tank or the most modern arrangement. Nothing has been left undone at the present time to see that the outhouses of schools are in a decent and proper condition and are flushed in the proper way so as to make the outhouse as sanitary and as tidy and as clean as possible.
I come now to the question of playgrounds. I must say that I always find it very difficult to understand why, where in some counties, I think, an acre of land is provided with a labourer's cottage, an acre for a playground cannot be provided for a school. The site is the local parochial responsibility. Playgrounds would also be the same thing. If you throw on a central authority responsibility for seeing that every schoolhouse from Tory Island down to Carnsore Point in County Wexford is provided with proper playgrounds, you are presenting a problem that cannot be faced. But if it is faced by local responsibility then I think you would have an attack on that situation and that some areas would be examples to others. At any rate, playgrounds are necessary. But you will not get playgrounds by saying in 1950 that they have to be provided and paid for by the State. I am suggesting that as one of the points that, in facing this in a constructive way, you would want to bear in mind.
I want to say a word with regard to the Dublin situation. There has been a certain amount of criticism in respect of areas without schools and areas that have large schools, and so forth. Comparatively recently I had to face the question of the districts in Dublin that were growing in a very rapid way without there being, beforehand, any notice from the city authorities or the planning authority that housing developments were going to take place in as rapid a way as was the case. The ecclesiastical authorities were finding themselves in difficulties in that building developments were taking place in one direction in the city and, without very much notice, the development became much greater than it was originally planned to be. Following consultation with His Grace the Archbishop of Dublin on the matter, I now have a committee consisting of a representative of the Archbishop, a representative of the Ministry, of the Corporation of Dublin, of the Office of Public Works, of the Department of Health and of the Department of Local Government, to take an urgent review of all the present housing areas and to keep a close preview of all developments that are taking place in the city, to see that there will be site accommodation and school accommodation available as the housing schemes develop.
Just to show what the problem in Dublin is, I have here a short list of schools in Dublin that are either being built or are ready to be built shortly or that are projected: Donnycarney, boys, 500; Donnycarney, girls and infants, from 700 to 800. These two are nearly finished. Rutland Avenue, boys, 500—these were recently opened; new school for girls in St. Bernadette parish, 750; Ballyfermot, boys, Presentation Brothers—plans are just ready for advertisement for 1,300 boys; Ballyfermot, girls' and infants' schools —site acquired—2,000 girls. Negotiations are going on for new girls' schools in Crumlin. Sites are reserved in Walkinstown, Crumlin, for three schools, boys, girls and infants—about 1,300 in all; site reserved for schools in Bluebell, Inchicore, and the Christian Brothers' schools in Crumlin are to be extended by about 400 places.
This involved very considerable capital amounts. In all these cases very considerable State grants are given. It is very easy to complain about delay and difficulty in these matters but there has been an increase of population in the City of Dublin and very considerable transfer of population there and the matter is being attended to in every possible way. I would like it to be understood that we have now set up a city committee to review systematically and to cover all these phases and problems.
On the question of the size and classes in the city, I have to say again that this is still engaging my very active examination and attention. There are two periods in the year in which classes increase. Classes increase in some ways from about April and increase in other ways, say, from 1st April to 1st July. There are technical problems with regard to the organisation of the classes and the lack of accommodation that affect overcrowding of this particular kind but everything we possibly can do will be done. There are financial considerations to it but I would not be held up by financial considerations if I could see a systematic and good way of dealing with the problem.
The question of the school-leaving age has again been referred to. That is a very big problem. It is a problem not only of accommodation on the one hand and of teachers on the other but a problem of curriculum. From some of the discussion that took place here, I felt that a case was being made and could perhaps reasonably be accepted that the increasing of the school-leaving age in rural districts was very desirable and very feasible and that, if there were difficulties in the city, because of accommodation and so on, the school-leaving age could be extended in rural districts while you were waiting to deal with the problem in the city. I do not see at the moment, at any rate, that that is so. You have your fabric of primary schools throughout the country and you have an extending fabric of technical schools but you have to decide in what type of school the extended education of children will be carried out.
The position, as I see it, in the greater part of the rural area is that the children in the higher classes in the national schools, say, 13 or 14 years of age, in their last year or two, are not able to get as good an education as they ought to be able to get. Most of these schools are one-teacher or two-teacher schools and, where you have infants and higher classes there, you cannot feel that the older pupils are getting the attention that people who are depending entirely on primary education ought to get in their last years. There has been a certain consideration of the educational position by a small departmental committee that was set up by the former Minister for Education and, from their review of the matter, there is a feeling here, as there is in other countries, that primary education as such, stops at about 12 or about 12 plus and that, after that, the educational pathway bifurcates, some go along the practical line and some along the more academic line. The arena of the primary school syllabus and what happens when children cross the threshold of the primary school, either to employment or to more academic studies or to more practical studies, is the arena that the Council of Education will have particularly to review and particularly to advise in respect of. I would not attempt to set out a plan for increasing the school-leaving age, even in rural districts, until there has been an examination of the primary syllabus and the age at which the three R's, that have been referred to in the debate, should stop and what should happen after that. If it is decided that primary education, as a foundation to something else, stops at 12 or 12 plus, then you have to decide what is going to come after that and, in rural areas, you have to decide whether that is going to continue in the present primary school or in some other kind of institution.
That is a very big problem from the Church point of view. It is a very big problem from the finance and the State point of view. It is a very big problem from the point of view of the training and provision of teachers. I, therefore, do not see any chance at all of my being able to advise the House with regard to the extension of the school-leaving age until the primary school syllabus and the nature of any bifurcation that would take place from the primary school into a technical school or secondary school is reviewed by a council of people experienced in and competent to advise on what is the foundation of education that our children would require in our primary schools.
Somewhat related to that is the primary certificate. I do not understand what objection there is to requiring that, at the end of the primary pupils' school career, they would sit for a written examination in English, Irish and arithmetic. It has been suggested that that is an educational outrage. I must say that I am not able to understand that at all. The children who go to the primary school go as infants. Some stop at the sixth standard. Others go to the seventh standard. The primary school certificate regulations make it compulsory on them to sit in the sixth standard year for this examination. Deputy O'Rourke rather suggested that if they did not sit until the seventh standard year the greater part of the objection would go. I would be very glad to think that there was something in that, but I understand that the only reason why the sixth standard year is made the year for the examination is that if the regulations prescribed the seventh standard year the children would have left school. I do not understand when it is suggested that it is an educational outrage or an educational injury to require primary school children at the end of their school course to do that examination and I think it would be a very great wrong in present-day circumstances to deprive children of getting a school leaving certificate.
Deputy Hickey particularly raised the question of scholarships and class distinction in education. I do not know whether the only mark of class distinction in education is that some schools like the children to wear a uniform. If the uniform is not expensive I think it is a very good thing. After all we look for good schools, clean schools, well designed schools and schools that will give the children in them a sense of dignity. As someone has said, if you are brought up in a palatial school you will not be content to live in a slum.
