I move amendment No. 1:—
In page 5, between lines 9 and 10, before Section 7 (2) to insert a new sub-section as follows:—
(2) Where a person is appointed to a situation in the Civil Service of the Government by virtue of sub-section (1) of this section such appointment shall be to a situation in a grade not less favourable as to salary scale as such person's existing grade in the service of the society.
It is hardly necessary to mention that an amendment similar to a large extent to this amendment was moved and divided upon in the Committee Stage and defeated. This amendment appeared in the name of Deputy C. Lehane on the amendment sheet for the Committee Stage and it was not moved. Accordingly I am moving it now. The only difference between the amendment which was defeated and this amendment is that the amendment which was defeated contained the words "existing rights" as well as "salaries". Certain Deputies objected to the words "existing rights", as they said it would hardly be practicable. The Minister said he had given ample assurances to the staff and he undertook on his own and the Government's behalf to honour these assurances. He said that any member of the staff who would be transferred would be no less favourably treated from the point of view of salary scales.
The arguments pro and con were gone into fairly fully. Many Deputies expressed the view that assurances given by the Minister were not sufficient to safeguard the interests of the staff, on the ground that the Minister might not always be Minister for Social Welfare and might not even be Minister when the transfer day comes round. It was also argued that the officials of the Department of Finance interpret statutes as they see them—this was Deputy Cowan's argument—and not in relation to the report of the debates here, and that they were quite entitled so to interpret the statutes. Deputy Con Lehane said: "My whole desire is to get the Minister to accept an amendment which will have statutory force". That is the desire of this Party in respect of this particular amendment.
I have not very many years' experience of the House, but during the debate on the Committee Stage I heard many members—including Deputies who support the Government—insist on having assurances given by Ministers during the consideration of Bills inserted in those Bills and not left to any interpretation which may later be put on them by Department of Finance officials or other people who will have a say in the administration of Acts of the Oireachtas.
The Minister said that when officials of the National Health Insurance Society are transferred to the Civil Service, there would be no doubt that whatever grade they were acting in in the society, and whatever salary scale they had, it would follow them into the Civil Service, and they would be no worse off from the point of view of remuneration. The Minister gave this assurance a long time before a delegation from the staff of the society came to see various Parties here. Fianna Fáil was the last Party that the deputation interviewed, and they were very much concerned about having some such provision as is contained in this amendment put into the Bill. Apparently, even though the Minister said they were satisfied with the assurance he had given them, they must have had some doubts in their minds when they asked our Party to submit an amendment such as this and, if possible, have it made part of the Bill.
There were other considerations that prompted the movers of the amendment, apart from what was put before them by the deputation. I pointed out several to the Minister. I indicated the difficulties there would be in the way of placing a member of the national health staff in a position in the Civil Service that would be on all fours with his position in the society, particularly from the point of view of right of promotion. I have no doubt it would be a simple matter to place a man from the society in the Civil Service in such a manner as he will not suffer from the remuneration point of view. I have not been convinced on this point, that difficulties will arise in relation to the man's chances of promotion. There are promotion bars within the Civil Service that do not exist in the National Health Insurance Society.
The amendment is exactly the same type of amendment as was moved by Deputy Con Lehane on the Committee Stage. Deputy Lehane said he was slow to accept the Minister's assurances at one stage, but later he said he was satisfied, even though, as he added, his whole desire was to get the Minister to accept an amendment that would have statutory force. Deputy Cowan was of a similar frame of mind.
I trust the Minister will accept the amendment in this form. He or nobody else can visualise what might happen on the transfer day. He cannot visualise when the transfer day will arise and what changes there may be in the Government. I feel sure that there are members of the Minister's own Party who are anxious that he should accept this amendment. From many points of view it is a desirable amendment.