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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Jun 1950

Vol. 121 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. —(Deputy Lemass).

Last night I was pointing out to the House how disastrous was the policy of the Government in not merely closing down the hand-won peat schemes all over the country but also in the removal of the semi-automatic machines from most of the bogs in the West of Ireland. I referred to the position in which the Gentex factory in Athlone found itself as a result of this policy and I pointed out to the Minister and to the House the trouble these people had to go to in order to try and have the machines left in the bogs to produce turf for their factory. The Minister said, when I pointed out that arrangements were made for the removal of machines to the factory itself, that the factory did not actually work them. I do not dispute that point with him but, were it not for the fact that the Gentex factory were definitely prepared to take over machines and work them themselves to produce turf for their factory, the machines would definitely have been removed from the bog in which they were being operated to supply turf to that particular factory.

I want again to point out that the Mental Hospital in Ballinasloe has for all time been using hand-won turf as its principal fuel. Of course, as a result of the Government's policy of cutting out the hand-won turf, they switched over to machine-won turf. But this year, when they found themselves in the position that they wanted, I think, something like 5,000 or 6,000 tons of turf the bogs in County Galway and in County Roscommon had been closed down and a contract had to be given to somebody to haul turf from Laoighis or Offaly. I think that is a disgrace. The Minister and Bord na Móna should have known that the furnaces that were installed when the new buildings were erected in Ballinasloe were all turf furnaces and they should have known that that hospital is outstanding in so far as it uses, I think, only about 30 tons of coal in the year, the rest all being turf. Provision should have been made by the Government and Bord na Móna to ensure that turf would be made available as near as possible to the Mental Hospital in Ballinasloe so as to avoid extra cost on the committee there in respect of the haulage of turf over a long distance.

Nobody is stopping the people in Galway from producing hand-won turf.

At the moment I am referring to the policy of the present Government in relation to the removal of the machines that were established in the bogs in the West of Ireland by the Fianna Fáil Government.

The Deputy said that the institution always used hand-won turf and that they only switched over to the use of machine-won turf when they could not get hand-won turf.

They have been using hand-won turf all the time——

And we will encourage them to do so.

——no less than 3,000 tons of it. That is a clear indication that hand-won turf is used all the time. I quoted, I think, a statement last night which was made by Deputy McQuillan.

Why quote it again?

I do not intend to quote it again. He said that this thing had to happen because a market could not be found for turf and because the cost of production was too great. I wonder if the Deputy who made that statement has examined what happened practically outside his own door?

Who said that the cost of production was too great? If you want to quote me please quote me accurately.

I want to point out that we had a scheme working in County Galway at a place called Killaderry or Derryfadda. Two machines had been working there. If the Turf Development Board or the Department of Industry and Commerce had decided that it was not economic to have those machines working, or that the production of turf in this particular bog was not economic, I wonder why it was that they allowed work to be carried on during the whole winter and why they had a lot of the men employed in making preparations for the production of peat from that bog for the coming summer? I wonder, too, why it was that Deputy McQuillan said it was only a few months ago that they decided to close down these schemes. This scheme was closed down last February. Will the Minister tell me why it was economic to have a batch of men working on that bog the whole winter, to have engineers installing machinery early in the month of February and to have them dismantling it in the same month, and later to have the machinery removed altogether from the bog at a time when the mental hospital committee was pointing out to Bord na Móna, and was making it known publicly, that there was no turf available for the committee in County Galway, and, further, why they decided to bring back the machines again and instal them in the bog at a huge expenditure amounting to between £4,000 or £5,000? That money, of course, might as well have been thrown down the river. No one could say that it was spending money wisely or well.

As I have said, we had a number of well-developed peat schemes not only all over my constituency but all over the county. The machines were allowed to be removed from the bogs, resulting in the disemployment of a large number of men, and the putting of them on the emigrant ship with no protest whatever being made by people who should have some say in Government circles. I have stated several times that the only real livewire industry that we had in the West of Ireland was peat development. I want to say to the Minister now that he should go ahead with it again. We should have machines installed in these bogs so as to provide work for the people in those areas. There is very little use in telling unemployed people all over the West of Ireland that we are going to find employment for them next week or the week after. This Government has been telling the people that since the day they took over office, but, unfortunately, the only employment that is to be found outside work provided by the county council, is work across the water.

That is not so. I will take 800 turf workers from the Deputy in the morning if he will give them to me.

It would be well, I think, if some of the western Deputies who sit behind the Minister would explain to him the type of worker who works on the bogs in our county. We have an army of small farmers, very small farmers with valuations of £3 or £4. Is the Minister so ill-advised as to think for a moment that those people could afford to leave their families and their little homes and travel up to Kildare?

The Deputy has said that they are going across to England. Kildare is not as far away as England.

I know the Minister can twist pretty well. There is an army going to England, but they are outside the people who work on the bogs.

Why do they not go to Kildare?

Why do not you go?

You went to Kilkenny from the West.

Deputy Keane claims to be a representative of Labour in this House.

I do not claim it—I am.

Deputy Keane should know that if the western worker thought it was more economic for him —if he thought that he could earn nearly as much money by the production of turf in Kildare as he could in England—he probably would agree to go to Kildare. That question is entirely beside the issue that I am discussing at the moment. I want to say that it would be much better—it would be more economic—if those schemes had been left in operation. They would be the means of providing employment for small farmers in our part of the country and for the people who were engaged in turf production. Because the schemes are not in operation the majority of those people who were in turf production have since been living on the dole or on unemployment benefit of one type or another. I say it would be more economic to have them employed on those schemes than to have them going to the Labour Exchange day after day. It would save us from asking all the questions that we have to ask the Minister week after week and month after month about the number of people who are unemployed. The only employment which the people who were thrown out of work by the Minister and the Government have since found is that which has been provided for them by the Galway County Council.

I referred last night to the dumps in the Phoenix Park. I notice that Deputy McQuillan, when speaking here, cast what appears to me to be a slur on the men who were engaged in the haulage of turf to Dublin. He said that:

"...the fellows driving the trucks prayed for rain all the way up—and I am putting it very charitably at that."

There were a number of individuals in this country who undertook the haulage of turf at a time when transport was very badly needed. They put trucks on the road and carried turf to Dublin. It is not true for any Deputy to say that they were praying for rain. They worked hard and, as a result of their hard work, they supplied the people of Dublin and other towns throughout the country with turf during that particular period. I think that the country owes a debt of gratitude to those individuals for the work they did, and for being able to keep trucks on the road at a time when it was very difficult to get parts for motors. They did their work well, and there is no use trying to cast a slur on people who worked hard day and night so that the people of Dublin would have reasonable supplies of turf.

References have been made here to the beet industry. Again the pure-minded individuals who are working so honestly behind the Government and who have no political bias have been labouring to keep all other people straight and honest. I notice that when Deputy McQuillan was referring to this particular industry he made the following statement here, as given in col. 1111 of Vol. 121 of the Official Debates:

"At this meeting held in Tuam a political bias was definitely introduced and an attempt made to give a political slant to it. I think that is deplorable. Efforts were made by a certain Deputy to quote the Dáil Debates, at this meeting comprising representatives of all Parties, to show that so-and-so said that the factory should not be in Tuam and that he wanted it transferred to Portarlington or elsewhere."

A meeting was held at Tuam for the purpose of trying to get additional beet produced for the factory in Tuam. This is an industry in the success of which every Deputy should be interested. The Deputy to whom Deputy McQuillan refers happens to be myself. That statement was the greatest slur ever cast on an individual. The individual I refer to is the man who acted as chairman of that particular meeting. His Grace the Archbishop of Tuam presided and an effort was made by all Parties to see that beet would be produced. There was no political bias. I advocated all right that it was up to the Tuam area to produce beet for the Tuam factory and I pointed out the efforts being made by others to have the beet factory removed. I think I was perfectly right in doing that, in warning the farmers of Tuam area that they were about to lose a great industry if they did not wake up, that they were the people who had to produce the raw material to keep the factory there and that on them rested the onus to supply the material, thereby keeping the factory.

Other references were made by Deputy McQuillan to individuals of the sugar company. I must say this about the sugar company—that the general manager has done everything in his power to try to keep that factory going. He has given us most of the raw cane that is imported, to be manufactured in Tuam. As a matter of fact, there is a three months' campaign on there at the moment. He has done everything to keep at work those employed in Tuam factory. I do not think it is right for an individual who has very little knowledge of the position to try to cast a reflection or slur on any of the individuals in the sugar company without thoroughly understanding what they have done to hold that factory there for the West of Ireland. This was not the first beet drive that we had in Tuam.

This seems to be a private row, which has nothing to do with me.

It is an industry and the Minister is responsible for it. Every time we make a drive to get more beet, we are helping the Minister. I would like to tell all those critics that their cheap criticism does not mean a whole lot. I happen to be one of the people who worked harder than any other individual in the West of Ireland to have that factory there and I intend to work equally hard for its maintenance. I have done that all through and will continue to do it. I certainly resent any effort by any individual to have it removed from Tuam. All we ask is the co-operation of Deputy McQuillan—as we are not going to get any beet from him, anyhow.

You would hardly get any job in the factory for him?

Deputy McQuillan may not always be a professional politician. Some day he may have to work.

These personalities should cease.

If the interruptions were not made, we would not have the personalities.

Deputy McQuillan will not go into a job that he is not able to fill—like Deputy Killilea.

More personalities.

I do not think there is any need to refer to that, as there are people with better authority to decide that than Deputy McQuillan. Every Deputy in the House, at least on this side, is satisfied that the Government have changed their minds regarding tourists. We are very glad to hear the strong pronouncements that are made nowadays by Clann na Poblachta, Clann na Talmhan and the rest of the Parties who had been abusing these individuals and telling the Fianna Fáil Government what a disgrace it was to be feeding them or even allowing them into the country. We all welcome that change. I was very pleased to see it come from some of the leaders quite recently. I was also very interested to learn that their organisations had been bringing pressure on them to change their minds in the direction of encouraging tourists instead of keeping them out.

It is nearly time to stop that misrepresentation.

There is no misrepresentation. I could quote the speeches they made and could continue quoting them for a week and touch only a small part of it.

Deputy Lemass made a very fine case here regarding the position of workers' wages and the Minister should take serious notice of it. Though the Minister has told us that most of the strikes are not due to the wages question, I believe that if we examine them, the weight would be on the wages question. I am fully prepared to leave the blame 100 per cent. on the different Labour Parties in this House. Not so very long ago there was a general increase in wages and if the workers to-day are not satisfied there must be a reason for that. I think the reason is that the cost of living has gone up enormously, but the Minister has hidden it because he has black markets for tea, sugar, butter, flour and a number of other commodities. Those are not included in the cost-of-living index figure. The workers themselves are beginning to feel, day after day, through their pockets, the burden that is being placed on them by this particular Government. Surely it is time the Labour Parties made up their minds and said to the Minister: "We must have a true index figure; we must know exactly what the cost of living is and whether it is going up or down; if we could once arrive at a proper figure we would know exactly how the workers are placed." The workers themselves would know then how they are placed and there would have to be a corresponding increase in wages.

Did the Deputy think like that in 1946 and 1947?

I have always thought like that, before the Deputy came up, in 1926 and back as long as I could go. Deputy Corish knows that.

I never said a word.

I know that, but if the Deputy behind you wants information you can tell him.

Tell him yourself.

I am telling him. The country is tired of strikes and the way to solve them is the way indicated by Deputy Lemass. Give us the true cost-of-living figure and fix wages according to that, and you will end strikes overnight. Any further strikes that may take place will not be of any significance. I would again urge upon the Minister the question of decentralisation of industry and I would also ask him to take steps to see that no more destruction is wrought on the peat industry through his hands and the hands of the Government.

I would like to preface my contribution to this debate by saying that we get this opportunity— and when I say "we" I mean the back benchers of every Party—of voicing the grievances of the particular people we represent. I will start with Cobh. On the 2nd March, 1949, I asked the Minister a question regarding the development and improvement of the landing stage at Cobh and I am afraid that the reply I got was anything but helpful. However, subsequent events made things a little easier for the people who are representing Cobh here, and the Minister has decided to give a very substantial grant. I take this opportunity of thanking him. I do not mind who brought about the grant. I can appreciate the Minister's difficulty and I always believe in rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and I certainly appreciate the Minister's gesture in giving that grant to Cobh.

I would ask the Minister to give in a smaller way something to Youghal. At one time Youghal was an even more important harbour than Cobh and there was a custom house there but with the trend of progress Youghal became a small harbour and Cobh became the harbour of Ireland. However, there are various factors in Youghal which might influence the Minister to give some little grant. The Harbour Commissioners at Cobh receive pretty heavy dues during the year and I believe that their financial position is in a decent state but Youghal does not receive any dues Youghal should get consideration and I would ask the Minister to keep it in his thoughts. I would remind him of the Latin quotation: Bis dat qui cito dat. You will get that in the dictionary in the Library.

Another town in my area is Fermoy and a small industry was started there through an individual's enterprise. He was a man who went to America because he could not get work during the Fianna Fáil regime. He came back and started in Fermoy and is doing pretty well. Fermoy is a town like Cobh that was very hard hit as a result of our progress on the road to Irish freedom. We must remember that at one time two battalions of infantry of the British Army were stationed in Fermoy and a battery of artillery and no provision was ever made to give Fermoy an alternative opportunity. However, I do not blame the Minister for conditions in Fermoy. I think that the people who have the money in Fermoy—and there are a share of them—should have some little initiative of their own. They should give the Minister and the Industrial Development Authority an opportunity of pinpointing an industry there, safeguarded by a guarantee of a certain amount of local capital.

Midleton is not too badly off; we have a distillery there and Sunbeam Wolsey. And my own town is pretty well off. I must pay a tribute to the former Government for the establishment of the cheese factory. Deputy Killilea laughs but we will render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's. We are not narrow-minded about that at all.

My colleague, Deputy Corry, travelled up various avenues but somehow or another he arrived at milk. It was only then I realised that the Minister had a certain amount of control regarding milk prices. If I am wrong I am sure he will correct me. I hope that Deputy Corry will insist on and pursue that when he is speaking to the men and women in Belmont, Cobh and Youghal and in the "Red City" in Youghal. The "Red City" is the nickname of a place there where the people are not as well off as some of us here would like them to be irrespective of the sneers and gibes of Deputy Brennan. He had a gleam in his eye and vengeance in his countenance regarding the Labour Party. He worked very hard in his day. He worked his ticket. Some of us know a little about Deputy Brennan—perhaps the unification of Labour is worrying him now.

That has nothing to do with this debate.

After all it is very hard to put up with sneers and gibes. The price of milk at the moment is 2/4 a gallon to the consumer and the cost of production of that milk is 7d. a gallon, that is, the costing price of the production of that milk. There is a fair margin of profit between 7d. and 2/4; I am a bad mathematician but I would not need to be very qualified in mathematics to subtract 7d. from 2/4. I hope Deputy Corry will read that and, if he wishes, will come in here and contradict it.

Deputy Childers spoke of the development of tourism by means of pictures, and I entirely agree with. him. It would be worth our while to make movies showing the beauties of places in this country—and there are many of them—which could be shown to the world with pride. I passed through an area within the past couple of days, and, without having experience of any of the continental beauty spots, I say that it would compare very favourably with any of them. I refer to the Valley of the Irish Rhine, from Fermoy into Youghal. If some means were devised by which these beauty spots could be presented to the world, it would be an incentive to people to come to this country. I cannot pass from that subject without paying a tribute to a man who is now dead. He was the originator of this scheme of pictures— the late Commandant Dave Barry, who was secretary of the Irish Tourist Association. He was a fellow townsman of mine, and lived only four miles from me, and there was no doubt that Daithi Barry did more to put tourism on a profitable basis than any other man. I hope that the Minister will not interfere with the Tourist Association, but will leave it there as an independent body, because it is doing heroic work to induce tourists to come to this country, and when they come, to facilitate them in every way in their offices in Upper O'Connell Street.

Rural electrification is proceeding apace in my county, and, for want of anything better to say about it, I ask the Minister to increase its momentum. I have no fault whatever to find with it. I notice that Deputy McQuillan has left. He spoke about turf, and I told the Minister down in the restaurant the position with regard to turf down in my constituency. I bought turf in 1936 and 1937, which undoubtedly was of splendid quality, but when the emergency came and a monopoly arose—I suppose nobody will blame anybody else for telling the truth—we had the greatest "blackguarding" that any section of the community or any area ever got from the turf men. I saw on one Sunday morning communal cooking being carried out in Robert Street, Mitchelstown. The people engaged in it were poor people, and one of them had what turf would light a fire but the remainder of it was useless. I want no turf, and I am prepared to face the electorate of East Cork on that.

My argument is that if the big towns and industries in the turf-producing counties would burn their own turf, there would be no necessity to look to the rest of Ireland at all. We heard about Ballinasole. It is within the power of the committee of management of the Ballinasloe Mental Hospital to get whatever they like. No Minister will make any objection, and if they were, as I daresay they are, good judges of their own requirements and if they required 6,000 tons of hand-won turf, they would not be looking for it in May of this year. They would be cutting, footing and drying those 6,000 tons of turf the year before. All this talk about it is the merest tommyrot and propaganda. I know this much about turf, that the turf we got in East Cork was scandalous and I will say no more about it.

With regard to Labour's demands, it will be noticed that every time we approach the Labour Court, it is a matter of a living wage, that is, a wage which has relation to the cost of living. Everybody will agree that that is a modest claim. How many people in other walks of life, commercial and agricultural, would be satisfied with a living wage? Surely some little margin ought to be allowed, no matter how infinitesimal, to give the hewer of wood and drawer of water an opportunity of enjoying himself for a week or a fortnight during his working year. I am not asking that the labourer be enabled to put aside a dowry like the farmer or shopkeeper. I am merely asking for something more than a living wage to enable him to enjoy the amentities of life and to give him an opportunity of developing an outlook which would be an acquisition to the country.

We have heard a lot about off-the-ration prices of commodities and I must be honest about that. I do not believe it will deprive the poor man of anything, because my experience is that some of them are not using the ration at times. I happen to be closely associated with business men and I knew occasions when they could transfer bread and butter rations to people who could afford to pay for them. The people concerned were unable to pay for them or were not using them, because there are people with different tastes and different palates. In 1946 or 1947 in the small town in which I was bred, born and reared, at the foot of the Galtees, tea was £2 per lb. and sugar 2/6 per lb. on the black market. I could name other places where tea was sold at 30/- and 35/-. In the town of Mitchelstown it was sold at £2 a lb. I hope it keeps fine for the people who charged it.

In Irish industry there are, besides inanimate objects, human beings. It is an amazing thing that we had to look afield, that we had to set our radar equipment and pinpoint to Glasgow when we wanted architects to build a certain structure for an association that undoubtedly is Gaelic by name and Gaelic by nature. We had to go to Glasgow. We could not find an Irishman. That is very bad. The old parson's dictum: "Do not do what I do but what I tell you" is very good for a lot of people.

In conclusion, I would remind the Minister of the points I have placed before him with regard to Youghal and Fermoy. I hope that when he is replying he will give a ray of hope to the people living in those areas.

As was mentioned by the last speaker, this Estimate is availed of by every Deputy to offer his opinions on the industrial policy of the Government. I have not come in here to make any special pleading for industries in any of the towns in my constituency. An authority has been established which, I presume, will go into that. I believe that the initiative will then rest, in the first instance, with the people who want to have the industries established and who are prepared to promote the industries and to put up, if not all, at least a reasonable proportion of the cash. The Minister at this stage is very fortunate in that respect. The very pleasant news—and it is pleasant news to me— that appeared in the morning newspapers of the reunification of the Labour Parties is, in my opinion, a very great incentive to people who are anxious to go on with industries. I am sorry that for the past six years and for even a longer period that incentive was not there. I earnestly hope that the reunification of the political Labour Parties in this House and outside it will be a forerunner of a speedy reunification of the trade unions. That is the sincere desire of everybody who is interested in the country because, after all, the way things were carried on and the dissatisfaction that there was amongst the various bodies and the cold war that was carried on had a very damping effect on the establishment of industries.

We have had for a long time, but particularly for the past two years, lightning and unofficial strikes. These, too, have had the effect of creating a deep feeling of insecurity. No responsible leader of a Labour movement or Labour Party should in any way—and I am sure that he would not—give any credit or encouragement whatsoever to lightning or unofficial strikes. There is one at present in the City of Dublin.

I hope it will be speedily terminated. Even this morning a number of housewives in the city felt the very great hardships that this has brought upon them.

In my opinion, when you have a properly directed labour union movement in a country there should be no need whatsoever for either lightning or unofficial strikes. They are a very bad and very serious thing. Perhaps the people concerned feel that they have a grievance. Nevertheless, a sudden stoppage of work should not occur. Two or three months ago, there was a bus strike in Dublin which affected about 60,000 of our citizens. One of the things on which I cannot compliment the Government is the way in which they handled that situation. Of course, they could not do otherwise, or any Government that can be described as a Government that is every way inclined could not take the action that was necessary to mitigate the hardships on the people of the city. If the Government had an agreed policy, if there were agreement amongst them, if they were prepared to make themselves unpopular with perhaps a small section of the community, they would have come to the rescue at least of the working-class people in the city at that time and would have provided them with alternative transport for the duration of the strike, just as Fianna Fáil did in similar circumstances some years ago. A settlement was eventually reached. I hope that one of the first results of the unity will be to terminate immediately that jelly-fish settlement that brought the bus strike to an end. It could be described as nothing else. It carried with it a very, very dangerous precedent, that nobody, in my opinion, could stand for. The strike was settled on the basis of putting two men on indefinite leave with full pay. I hope that we will not have that type of settlement at any time in future. That is no settlement.

We have had, even in the past two or three months, a number of strikes. By an Act of this Parliament, an institution was set up to deal with strikes. When that Act was going through the House, it met with a certain amount of criticism. It was not possible, and I do not believe it is possible now, to give to any institution so established, compulsory powers to settle strikes. That would be running away altogether from democracy and would be dictatorship. But is there anything wrong with the Labour Court? Is it a defective machine? Apparently, there must be something wrong with it in the minds of certain people. Otherwise, a very responsible member of the Government would not have so adversely commented on it. Not merely did he do that on one occasion, but he reiterated it. When a court of this kind has not the full confidence of the Government, and that stated in no ambiguous terms, then the inclination on the part of the contending parties is to flout the decision of that court.

I am not going to express any opinion as to who is right or wrong, what side is right or wrong, in the present strike in Galway. But that strike has very far-reaching consequences. It has occasioned great hardships on many people there, particularly on a number of the farming community who were getting their fertiliser supplies from the local fertiliser factory. The Labour Court gave a decision. The workers, on the one side, do not agree with that decision. The strike has gone on, is going on, and week after week we have almost half-page advertisements in the local papers from both sides to that strike, each expressing its own point of view. The employers say: "After all, this court was established by law, and the members of it are the people solely responsible to give a decision. We are fighting on principle; it is the principle that we are standing on." I think I am quoting their statement correctly.

In view of the adverse comments that I have made reference to, I think, in the very favourable atmosphere that is now presenting itself to the Minister, he should make a statement as to whether or not the Labour Court has the full confidence of the Government. If it has not, or if it has only limited confidence in that they contend that there are defects in it, then I hope that he will state if it is the intention to remove the defects. In that way he will be helping not merely his Industrial Development Authority, but he will be giving security to the people who are anxious to invest their money, and he will also be giving security to the workers. He will give them to understand that it either has the confidence of the Government, and that the Government are standing by its decisions, or, if it has not, that he is going very speedily to remedy the defects and, once the defects are remedied, then the Government will stand 100 per cent. over whatever decision that Labour Court will come to.

I think it is only fair to ask for such a statement. If he has to introduce legislation for it, I hope, even if we have to put back the recess to the month of September, that that legislation will be introduced, and that it will be discussed carefully here.

The Deputy must not advocate legislation.

It was alleged that there were certain defects, and I am pointing out that it is the responsibility of the Government, if there are defects, to have them remedied, and I am merely suggesting that it is by way of legislation——

The Deputy may not advocate legislation.

Anyhow, such a statement from the Minister will clear the air. Such a statement is very badly needed and, without that statement coming, it would be, in my opinion, a mere waste of time for the Industrial Development Authority to be proceeding at all. It would be useless until such time as there is agreement and there is an authority set up by the Oireachtas to go into labour disputes, disputes between employees and employers, and that it is going to have the full backing of the Government of the day. I assure the Minister that people who are inclined to invest money will be very slow to come forward until that point is first solved.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present

A great deal has been said on all sides of the House in connection with the turf industry. I do not propose to dwell on it at any great length. It surprised me very much and disappointed me, too, that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in the early part of this year, decided to abandon the semi-automatic machines on turf schemes. If it was any other Minister I would say he did that because he did not understand, but I could not absolve the present Minister in that way, because he understands rural Ireland very well; he understands all about turf production. When certain questions were put down here, he came forward with the excuse that the scheme was uneconomic. Of course it was bound to be uneconomic, because of the fact that full development work had not been carried out.

Perhaps, in the first instance, some bogs that were not altogether suitable were selected. It would be all right to abandon such bogs as these, but certainly there is sufficient bogland in this country of the proper kind and fibre, where the machines that were working in 1948 and 1949 could have been continued. What about a loss of some thousands of pounds when employment was being given and when the money was being kept in circulation in the country? After all, in every business and in every enterprise of that kind it is rarely that profits are shown the first, second or third year. That is why I say that the big fault entirely lay in the fact that the bogs were not developed. The drying out of a bog cannot be accomplished in one or two years. In many instances, with even the most up-to-date machinery, it would take four or five years to drain it properly. Consequently what was happening in these bogs in which machines were employed was that owing to lack of proper drainage it was the light, top portion that was being cut and the superior quality turf was left at the bottom uncut. I am glad at the same time that the Minister has shown a change of attitude. Perhaps it was because of the pressure exerted and the criticism that was expressed here. If that is so, it is all to the good. It shows the value of criticism. Even in face of criticism, however, some Ministers would be so stubborn that they would not admit that they were wrong in their judgment. I compliment the Minister, therefore, on the good sense he has shown in deciding to carry on with this scheme. I do hope that he is going to carry on with it on a very extended scale and that he is going to see that the engineers will go into other bogs for the purpose of having development work carried out.

As I said last year, I have great hopes for the success of the semi-automatic machines. I believe in getting things done in the easiest way and the time might come in this country when semi-automatic machines, or perhaps improvements on them, would be producing all the turf the people in rural Ireland require for their domestic requirements. I am quite sure that if that turf were produced to-day, and if it were of good quality such as it would be if the proper development were carried out, there are a great number of families, particularly tillage farmers, who have just enough to do to attend to the cultivation and care of their crops, who would be delighted to have the opportunity of purchasing that turf and have it brought to the yard to them because it would save them considerable time and labour that could be better used on their own farms at home. That is all I have got to say, so far as the turf position is concerned.

There is another matter that I should like to bring to the Minister's notice. I mentioned it on the Estimate for Agriculture last year and, indeed, I have mentioned it for a number of years. I do not know whether it would be strictly relevant to this Estimate, but I rather think it is because of the fact that it has reference to a commodity that is being exported and which has a dollar earning capacity. I refer to wool. If there is one thing in the West of Ireland which is causing great dissatisfaction to the farming community, it is the wool situation. It is all right to get a price, but the instability of prices is where the real dissatisfaction arises. We have had that instability as long as I remember.

We had the situation last year whereby the small farmer, who had not sufficient storage for the small bit of wool, even though it was a small bit of wool he took in immediately after the shearing, sold it at 2/- a lb. Two shillings a lb. may seem a big price to certain Deputies but Galway wool has always been regarded as being of very high quality. It was sold, as I say, at 2/- a lb. immediately after it had been clipped. Then wool prices started increasing and it finished up at 4/3 a lb., which was the price received by the man who could afford to hold on to it. Of course, he took a risk in holding on to it but he made very well out of taking the risk, because he got over 100 per cent. more than his neighbour, who, by force of circumstances, had to sell immediately after the wool was clipped. I think that, at the moment, the price of Galway wool is round about 4/- per lb. It is a great price undoubtedly but still, in view of what happened last year, a number of people may be inclined to hold on to that wool until next January. I think that is a very uncertain type of situation and that something should be done to stabilise prices. I know there was a good deal of dissatisfaction expressed by the Clann na Talmhan Party and others here when the past Government, during the years of the emergency, fixed wool prices. It would be better to fix prices now for the different types and grades of wool and let farmers understand what they are going to get. If the wool went 7/- a lb. between now and next Christmas, the farmer then would have no grievance whatever and the Government, in my opinion, could utilise any money accruing to very great advantage by giving a bounty on the wool when prices might be reduced, or else by giving a bounty to our people in reducing the cost of the woollen raw materials to the cloth manufacturers. I believe that would come back to the people. I had something to say on this matter also when the Fianna Fáil Party was in office, but I cannot see why some form of Government control cannot be brought to bear on this matter so that the price to the farmers would be stabilised, and so that they would get the same price for the same grade and the same type.

That would be for the Minister for Agriculture.

It is an agricultural commodity.

And stabilisation of price would be a matter for him.

But it is being utilised for export. It is one of the best dollar earners we have. I understand that the steep increase in the price of wool last year from the month of October onwards was due to devaluation and because wool is an interchangeable commodity which can earn dollars. That is why I relate it to the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Would not the Minister for Agriculture have something to say to the price?

I suppose we shall have our innings there too.

The Deputy wants to make two bites of a cherry.

If I am not to proceed on these lines and if I must wait to refer the matter to the Minister for Agriculture, may I say that last year the Minister for Agriculture said he would look into the situation? His actual words are on record. I shall take the opportunity of reminding him of it again this year, if I speak on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

You want to stop the speculator.

The speculator is sitting pretty. It is the producers who suffer. Reference has been made to beet and to the position with relation to the factory at Tuam. It is well known that the Fianna Fáil Government established that factory at Tuam against the advice of their experts. I am bitterly disappointed at the response in the West of Ireland in connection with that factory. Young men from the West of Ireland are not prepared to grow beet on their own land and attend to its cultivation, but they are quite prepared to come up to Carlow to work at beet cultivation there. I may say that they are very welcome in Carlow. The people who employ them say that they are as fine a group of men as they have ever come across. An acquaintance of mine told me that if he could get the men from the West, he would grow twice his present acreage. He has a very considerable acreage under beet at present. The position in Tuam is a rather peculiar one. Along the western seaboard the land is quite unsuitable for growing beet. On the other hand, there is a considerable area of land which is very suitable for beet production. The area from Tuam to Portumna and on to Ballinamoe is suitable for beet production, but there are no branch railway lines running through that area. There is merely the one line from Dublin to Galway. The result is that there are areas which are 20 or 25 miles from the nearest railway station. The cost of transport would add considerably to the cost of production in these areas; the cost of transport, in turn, would considerably reduce the price of beet. As in the case of wool, when farmers produce a commodity they believe they are entitled to the same price for it as the price that prevails in more favoured localities. The farmer in Portumna, and I am sure in Ballina too, believes that a considerable amount of State money is being invested in the beet in industry. He thinks that his beet in Portumna or Ballina should be as valuable to the community as is the beet produced by his cousin who lives within three miles of the factory. Beet is one of the few agricultural commodities in which there is what I might describe as a regional price differential. If I live within 50 miles of a mill, I still get the same price for my wheat. If I sell cattle in the fair at Ballinasloe, the fact that I sell them to a Drogheda man or a man from the Hill of Down makes no difference in the price I receive for them.

I think the system that exists in regard to the growing of beet requires some modification. Admittedly, the man living within 60 miles of the factory gets the same price for his beet; it is the deduction for the cost of transport that makes the price differential as far as he is concerned. If something could be done to rectify the present unsatisfactory position in that respect, I am sure that the Tuam factory would produce its complement of sugar. I believe it could get its full supply in the Province of Connaught. I believe that if Connaught and Clare were treated as one region and if some adjustment was made in the cost of transport so that the farmer would get * transport so that the farmer would get equal price for his beet in the long run, there would be a considerable increase in the acreage of beet in the West of Ireland.

There is another matter I want to raise. My information on this is purely hearsay and I am subject to correction. I have been told on a few occasions by people who claim that they are in a position to know, that one of the reasons why fertilisers are so costly is that the manufacturers here have not mechanised their factories to the same extent as they have been mechanised in other countries. As far as superphosphate is concerned, it has been stated that the manufacturers here are members of the European monopoly, or cartel, as the Minister for Agriculture would call it. Because of that, they are subject to quota; if they go beyond that quota, the people outside will come in and undersell them. I have no proof that that is so but, if it is so, it is time something was done to remedy that position. The time has come when manufacturing processes of 70 years ago are no longer suitable. Yet, I understand that in some of our factories the work is still done by hand, even to the filling of the sacks with the finished product. I have been told that some of our manufacturers have installed machinery in recent years. I believe some of them have not. That has the result of making the manure so costly here.

The former Minister for Industry and Commerce was contemplating the production of sulphate of ammonia here. I hope the present Minister will continue to do something in that respect. If we are in a position to manufacture this product for ourselves, even though it may be costly, it would at least render us less vulnerable in time of crisis and would not leave us open to a repetition of the situation that existed during the last emergency when we were compelled to pay £7 10s. 0d. per cwt. for black-market sulphate of ammonia taken in across the Border. An investment of that kind would be very useful. Although we may have to import our raw material from outside, as well as the nitrogenous manure which I have mentioned, I think we should do our best to manufacture all the manure we can here. That would be a big step forward in helping the farmers of this country to produce greater quantities and also to take a lesser price for that produce— and that, too, would have some effect on the cost of living.

While many of the contributions to this debate from Deputies on the opposite side of the House are reasonable and helpful, it is rather difficult to understand why the Fianna Fáil Party claim that they are the only Party in this country interested in the advancement of Irish industry. After all, it does not require any great intelligence to understand that once we had got control of our own affairs it was the duty of the Government to do everything possible to improve industry on the one hand and agriculture on the other hand. After all, agriculture and industry may be said to be complementary. When agriculture is prosperous, the people engaged in it—the farmers and the agricultural workers—can afford to buy what is produced in the factories. If the reverse is the case, it can easily be understood that there would not be a good market for manufactured goods. Therefore, the Cosgrave Government, in its wisdom, once it had got control of the affairs of this country, engaged in the setting up of certain Irish industries.

It set up a tariff commission in order to see what protection these industries would require. It is a tribute to the wisdom of those who took part in that matter that, right through all the years since then and through the emergency, these particular industries are the industries that have succeeded and have stayed prosperous in this country. I admit that the Fianna Fáil Party, in their own way, did everything possible for the advancement of Irish industry, although, indeed, I must say that many of the factories and foundries and whatever else they set up in various places went bankrupt and are no longer in existence.

I think that there is altogether too much talk about Government interference with industry. It would be very bad if private enterprise were interfered with in any way by any Government. Furthermore, we must realise that we must be reasonable in the number of industries that we set up. We must make sure that for whatever we produce there is a market at home and that, in respect of the surplus, we shall be able to obtain a foreign market. Various Deputies suggested during this debate that industries of one kind or another should be set up in their respective constituencies. About a dozen referred to the setting up of cement factories. I would point out that it is considered that at the present rate of building about 750,000 tons annually of cement would be sufficient to meet the requirements of the country. For that reason, would it not be more economic to extend the present factories which are at present able to produce 500,000 tons rather than set up new cement factories here and there when there is the danger that afterwards there would be no market for the produce of these new cement factories? Deputy Killilea gave us a very good example in point, when he referred to the difficulties in respect of the Tuam beet factory. I believe that in the first instance it was ridiculous to build a beet factory in Tuam.

To judge by what Deputy Killilea had to say, one would think that the County of Galway is made up of bogs. There has been so much talk by the Deputies opposite on the subject of hand-won turf that it would seem as if that subject has become an obsession with them and one would think that, in fact, all of this country is made up of bogs. Yet, in touring Galway and elsewhere we do not come across such great expanses of bog. Except for the Bog of Allen, you will find only very small supplies of turbary here and there and these not to a great depth. If the turbary which we have in this country had to supply the needs of our people there are areas where, after ten, 15 or 20 years, the people would not have a whole supply. There is no point at this stage in referring so much to hand-won turf because, when there was no market for it, there was no use in producing it. I will, however, say that any man who produces hand-won turf on his own should always be able to find a good market for it. When the hand-won turf industry ceased we, and I think the supporters of this Government, advised the people at that stage to produce all the hand-won turf possible but the Deputies opposite and their supporters advised the people not to do so. They said that the market for hand-won turf had gone.

Deputy Killilea referred to unemployment in Galway and he stated that it was due mostly to the cessation of the hand-won turf industry. I frequently see advertisements in the daily Press to the effect that hundreds of workers of various types are required in the Kildare bogs. The Minister pointed out that those who want employment will go all the way to England for it and will not go to the Kildare bogs. That being so, I do not know what they want—must the men go to the bogs or must we bring the bogs to the men? I am, naturally, very interested in the subject of hand-won turf and in seeing if anything can possibly be done in the matter. In my constituency in South Kerry there is a great deal of turbary though not to the vast extent that the supply is inexhaustive. If the Government or the Minister could see any way by which the people there could make a living, or set up some kind of an industry in connection with it, I am sure every effort would be made to bring about that situation.

The trouble, however, is that the machine-won turf near Caherciveen is still in the bogs because there is no market for it. It may be that the cost of production is too high, but it is folly to produce goods for which there is no market. I can give an example in point. We all remember that, as a result of the policy which was pursued at one time by the Fianna Fáil. Government, there was no price for our live stock, and orders had to be issued that the calves were to be slaughtered. That position was brought about because there was no market.

I would call the attention of the Chair to the fact that it might be well if Deputy Palmer had a few listeners to his discussion of the economic war.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present

While it is alleged by the Party opposite that it was this Government which stopped the hand-won turf industry, I want to point out that it was the Fianna Fáil Government that brought in 500,000 tons of foreign coal. I understand the great portion of it is still unsold, even though offered at a reduced price because the quality was poor. That was a great way to stop the hand-won scheme. Furthermore, I can say that, during the general election in January, 1948, a deputation of turf workers and turf hauliers met Deputy de Valera in Dingle with a request that the hand-won turf scheme would be continued because various rumours were around that it would not be. When they came back they told those who were interested—this cannot be denied— that the reply of Deputy de Valera was that he had no longer any interest in hand-won turf. Some Deputies said here yesterday that supervisors were in various districts looking after the work that was to be carried on in the future, and that these supervisors had instructions as to what they were to do. That is simply all humbug and hypocrisy because there was no intention at all of continuing the scheme.

As regards Córas Iompair Éireann, anyone travelling by train at present can see that there is already a new look on the railways. The stations have been beautifully painted, the carriages have been improved and I am sure, now with the new board and a chairman who did useful and competent work during the past year, that in a short time the railways will be able to pay for themselves. I would like to say that it has been brought to my notice—I have noticed it myself—that in various places Córas Iompair Éireann lorries are carrying goods in competition with the railways. In various places goods which could be conveyed by train are taken by lorries which run side by side with the railways.

Some of the Deputies on the opposite side have charged that we on this side are not interested in tourism. Tourists came to this country before ever we had a Government of our own, or before ever the Fianna Fáil Party was heard of. They will come so long as we have beautiful scenery and so long as we make proper provision for them in our hotels. If anything helped to interfere with tourism in this country it was when Fianna Fáil set up the tourist board to purchase luxury hotels that never paid. They were being run at a loss at a time when all the other hotels in the country were prosperous and making good profits. It is not right, I think, that a Government should take part in any industry. It should be run by private enterprise.

Fianna Fáil claim that they were responsible for the rural electrification scheme. I think the Government that was responsible for it was that which set up the Shannon scheme at Ardnacrusha, a scheme which was once called "a white elephant" by a Deputy opposite. I would suggest to the Minister that, in order to brighten rural life and life in the Gaeltacht areas, even though it may mean a loss, some provision should be made to extend rural electrification to those areas. Even if the canvass or survey shows that the number of users is not likely to be very big, still, in order to brighten the lives of the people and to help to relieve the drudgery of life on the farm, something on the lines I suggest should be done. The people in those areas should be encouraged to make use of the electricity. That might help to prevent emigration to a certain extent.

A survey should also be made of our mineral resources so that in the case of an emergency the Government would know where minerals were to be found. It would be a good thing also, in view of present world conditions, to ensure supplies of raw materials which have to be imported and cannot be produced at home. This would be an opportune time to get in such supplies, and have a supply set aside that would be available for our industries in case an emergency should arise.

It is gratifying to know that the Minister is in a position to state that Irish industry was never more progressive. There are more employed now in Irish industry than ever before. There is greater production and greater exports. I think, therefore, that there are no grounds for the doleful speeches and gloomy outlook of the Party opposite. So far as we are concerned, and so far as the people are concerned, we are quite satisfied that everything possible is being done for the welfare of our industry.

The sort of misrepresentation which Fine Gael usually indulges in is well exemplified by Deputy Palmer's accusation that the machine-won turf that was produced in Caherciveen last year cannot be sold in 1950 because Fianna Fáil imported 500,000 tons of coal in 1947. He made no reference at all to the 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 tons—more than ten times the amount—which have been imported since by the Government which he supports. It is all very well to talk to the people in Caherciveen who, perhaps, do not read the import statistics, and say that the reason they cannot sell their turf in Caherciveen is that Fianna Fáil imported 500,000 tons of coal in 1947.

If it is the importation of coal that has stopped machine-won turf sales and if Deputy Palmer is interested in bogs in that way, why did he not advocate to his Government to-day to stop the importation of coal, why did he not condemn his Government as he condemned Fianna Fáil for having imported 500,000 tons in 1947? Why did he not condemn his Government for importing 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 tons?

Coal or slate?

We were very glad to get it. With one provision or another, we had not to burn the furniture, as they did in other countries. It is true that the turf produced by the small turf digging machine through a Government or semi-Government organisation will cost more than the turf produced by the big baggers or big turf-winning machines of Bord na Móna. That is inevitable, as the smaller bogs were never laid out as the big Bord na Móna bogs. Therefore, turf with the small de Smithska or Dolberg machine will cost more—perhaps a couple of shillings more—but the Minister should realise that in these years there is a great need for employment in rural districts. The Minister himself and his Department are not responsible fully for that difficulty. The policy and the advocacy of another Minister has resulted in 55,000 people who formerly got employment on the land, being out of employment—55,000 since the present Government came in. The Minister involved sometimes spoke very vehemently against the flight from the land and sometimes he was not vehement, but at least the Minister for Industry and Commerce always condemned the flight from the land. He was consistent in that, and surely he should be consistent as a Minister and in these times, when the volume of employment is being so gravely reduced, he should do his utmost to ensure that, so far as his Department is concerned, alternative employment is given to these men. Even if it does cost a little more to produce the turf on the smaller machines, it would be worth while doing it in these days.

Some of the Ministers are against subsidies of all kinds, but does the Minister ever sit down to think this matter out? What are we doing when we give 25/- a ton extra to the British Coal Board for their coal—for their dirt, a lot of it, not coal, as some of it has 40 per cent. ash—that is 25/- a ton more than the British consumer has to pay for good coal of a good quality? What does that really mean, in view of the fact that last year 18,000 people emigrated from this country, most of them to Britain? It means that we are subsidising the British Coal Board to the tune of 25/- a ton to employ our people in the mines in Britain who might have been employed on the bogs of our own country. If we are so generous as to give the British this extra subsidy and not keenly scrutinise the quality of coal they send in, we should re-examine the situation to see whether something can be done to help in the production of turf—if not hand-won turf, at least to keep all the small turf-winning machines going.

There are grave complaints about the quality of coal being imported from the British Coal Board at the present time. Anybody who gets that coal must pay on the nail; he cannot send it back and cannot cut the British Coal Board in their price. He must accept a large portion of the duff as well as the lumps if he wishes to get supplies. There are parts of the country in which there is no turf and they are compelled, if they want fuel of some kind, to take this very high ash-content coal dust from the British. I know of one case, in one small town. There are no bogs nearby and the people have to import coal, and in return they export potatoes. In one week some good quality potatoes were exported. The British thought they were having too many potatoes in the country, so they scrutinised the potatoes exported with a microscope or heavy magnifying glass and they found some little spots that are normally on ware potatoes. They were nothing above the normal— in fact, that was certified by Department inspectors, but the British thought they were too much and cut the price by 19/6 a ton. In that same week a cargo of coal came in and I saw a portion of it. At least half of it was slack, burnable with great difficulty. The man who imported it had to pay on the nail. He could not cut them 19/6 a ton or say: "Take back your slack" as, if he did, he would get no more.

That particular transaction both ways illustrates the whole point. If we really want some independence of judgment left, some economic or political liberty, we must do our utmost to get a fair degree of self-sufficiency in the essentials of life. We should set out as rapidly as possible to reach the point when at least we will not be dependent on foreign countries for fuel, or be in a position where we must accept everything they throw at us. Before I leave that question, I think it is wrong to mix up, as the Minister proposes to do again this year, the activities of large-scale bog development with the rather small-scale machine-won turf schemes.

They are not being mixed; they are two separate schemes.

They are two separate schemes but, unfortunately, one organisation is responsible for both of them. I know a number of the people in Bord na Móna and they are men I trust to do a good job, but they are only human beings and their job in Bord na Móna is to deal with large-scale bog development of 20 or 30 square miles with machines 20 or 30 tons weight turning out 20,000 or 30,000 tons of turf a year. The Minister has given them the money to go ahead and develop a number of those schemes and that is a big enough job of work for a single set of men. I am sure that the Minister and everybody else will press them to deliver the goods, that is, to get the big bogs going with the most efficient machinery as quickly as possible. If the organisation and development of the smaller bogs with smaller machines is made the responsibility of Bord na Móna, no matter how good they may be, it will detract from their efficiency in doing the main job of work.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present

I conclude that portion of my remarks by asking the Minister to examine that whole problem. Deputy Palmer dealt at some length with the changes in Government policy that occurred in recent months regarding the small semi-automatic turf winning machines. Now that, the Government have seen their way to go ahead I think the Minister would be well advised to examine the suitability of the organisation to deal with production with these machines. I think it would be much better for the country, and that we would get more and cheaper turf if instead of trying to handle those machines by a Government organisation or a semi-Government organisation like Bord na Móna an effort were made to sell them, and to include in the sale price the servicing of the machines for the first year or so. Our people are quick enough to master any mechanical details of a machine, but they require a little experience. If the Minister could sell with the machines, advice and servicing for one year a lot of hard working men of intelligence, like the people who started lorry work and kept them going on the roads, might take these machines and produce the turf the people require.

I would be very happy to do that. If any group, individual, co-operative society, guild of Muintir na Tíre or other responsible body were prepared to purchase the machines, I would give them at much less than the cost and the servicing also.

It is not so much the cost. I do not want the Minister to give them away for nothing, but we are spending a terrific amount of money on inspectors; the Minister heard the long list of inspectors on certain of the Minister for Agriculture's schemes, and to spend a little money on servicing the machines for a year might make all the difference.

I am prepared to do that also.

I am glad to hear that the Minister is prepared to do that. Then again I want him to review the marketing of this turf in light of the fact that we are paying an extra 25/- a ton to Britain for, in a large number of cases, rubbishy coal.

It has been my experience and it is probably the experience of a number of people in the country who have electric equipment of one kind or another that there is the greatest difficulty in getting parts when renewals are necessary. We have a Bureau of Standards and the Electricity Supply Board which supplies practically all the electricity made in the country and I suggest that the Minister should ask the Electricity Supply Board and the Bureau of Standards to go into the question of electrical fittings. If all the lamp fittings in the country were different we know the great confusion it would cause, but people have accepted as something inevitable that every plug they buy in an electrical fitting shop is different from the last plug and that if they want to change a fire or an electric motor from one place to another they have to rewire the fitting that goes into the plug. That might have been all right in the past but the Minister should go into the whole business and arrange for a few sets of standard fittings that would do the various strengths of current required, from the rather small motors up to the heftier ones. We cannot suddenly re-equip and re-plug all the points in every house in the country but we could proceed gradually and by degrees. If we had a standard type or a few standard types of plugs we could equip new houses with them and the houses in the country which are coming into the rural electrification scheme. When old equipment falls due for renewal the new standard type of plugs could be fitted and at least our children's children, or perhaps our children if they live long enough, would have the pleasure of being able to plug in anywhere without having to rewire their whole equipment.

On this question of tourism Deputy Palmer again accused us of killing the tourist industry. The Government are long enough in office to have realised that if we are to balance our international books we must give a certain attention to this trade. There are certain things standing in the way, because there was a state of opinion created amongst large sections of our people by speeches made by the Taoiseach and Minister for External Affairs, as well as by many Deputies. I do not want to see the whole of our imports dependent on our sale of tourism. I should much prefer that we should be able to pay for our imports with agricultural and industrial exports, but last year we were £59,000,000 "in the red". We had a deficit balance of visible trade of £59,000,000 and we have to sell something in order to pay for our imports. One of our big sales is the sale of tourism. The Taoiseach has made fairly ample amends, because he has spoken very much in favour of it, although he was against tourism when Fianna Fáil were in power. Deputy Hickey to-day when a Fianna Fáil Deputy was accusing members of the Government Parties of having been against tourism in the past said that we should drop that misrepresentation.

And quite true, too.

I want to deal with this once and for all, and if Deputy Hickey again talks about it I intend to refer him to his speech.

There is a difference between "spivs" and tourists.

There is on record a leaflet issued, not in 1945 during the war, but in 1948, by a Party in this House, which says:—

"GENERAL ELECTION, 1948.

Butter, bacon and eggs in hotels for English spivs, foreign tourists and moneyed aliens.

End this corruption and poverty amidst plenty.

Vote Clann na Poblachta.

Give MacBride the reins of Government.

Issued by Darach Connolly, solicitor, election agent for the candidates."

What is wrong with that?

In 1948, we were calling tourists "spivs," foreign tourists and moneyed aliens, and in 1948 the Minister for External Affairs was advocating a tax on tourists.

The "spivs" are gone now.

Some of them have gone to many boards the Deputy was interested in.

Times, like the Government, have changed for the better.

The Government has changed and therefore the tourist is no longer a "spiv" but a person to be welcomed. If we are going to change our attitude to tourism as on many other matters every time the Government changes, it is going to be very bad for the economic development of the country. All I want to get is agreement. I do not want Deputies on the Government Benches, no matter what their past, to proclaim that we should depend altogether on tourism to balance our deficit on visible trade, but I want them to agree that it should be given encouragement and that the Minister for External Affairs should follow the Taoiseach's example and withdraw these castigations on the tourist industry and all these names they called tourists and agree that they should get a reasonable welcome and fair service.

They should be welcomed when there is food in the country for them, but not when people are starving.

The Deputy, in 1948, was quite prepared to agree that the Government should send out about 500,000 cattle and I do not know how many millions of great hundreds of eggs. That did not show that the country was starving. If it had been, we should not have sent out these cattle and eggs.

And a four-ounce ration of butter.

Let me finish this argument. We did send out 500,000 cattle and millions of great hundreds of eggs. There was no objection to it from Clann na Poblachta or Fine Gael, but they did object to our selling these eggs with service, in an Irish hotel, or selling the beef with service and some sauce for ten times the price we could get for it on the hoof. I know that Deputy Fitzpatrick is still trying to justify that leaflet about alien tourists, "spivs" and so on but will he now admit that we should not put a tax on tourists?

If you will admit that you had no food for our own people when you were encouraging these tourists to come in. We now have the food.

While we were encouraging tourists to come in here, we were exporting 500,000 cattle and millions of great hundreds of eggs.

Our own people could not buy them.

Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Davin did not say to the farmers that we should not sell these, but they did object when, instead of getting 1/- a lb. for them, we got 5/- and 6/- a lb. by selling them with some sauce to visitors.

Our people could not buy when you had the Wages Standstill Order.

There is a Wages Standstill Order still, and again it is a question of what Government is in power. If Deputy Davin had been in England during the war, he would have stood with the Labour Party over there for standstill. As a political weapon, he was against standstill when Fianna Fáil introduced it, but now, when there is a Government of his making in power, he is in favour of standstill. However we will leave Deputy Davin to his conscience and his constituents.

I am quite prepared to accept their verdict any time.

Deputy Mrs. Rice asked the Minister yesterday to consider the abolition of many of the rationing controls which are still in existence. We have all had the experience, for instance, that garage proprietors will not take petrol coupons. Some of them still do, but others will not take the trouble of putting them in their pockets or throwing them away, or even taking them in their hands at all. Apart from petrol, there is the fact that we have rationing of tea which seems to be unnecessary, in view of the supplies. We have rationing of sugar and of butter, which seems to be unnecessary. It is five years since the war concluded and, unless we are stocking up for the next war, we should try to get rid of the various controls and rationing that still exist. In order to maintain rationing, we have to employ a large number of civil servants. Those civil servants would be better employed in adding to national production rather than adding to the troubles that all sorts of business people and the ordinary housekeeper have from day to day. Ration books are a nuisance and should be done away with, if at all possible. If we did away with them, and if we could save on the administration costs, we would save some little thing towards the cost of any extra subsidies. I am sure that many housekeepers, although they are very much incensed at the rise in prices of many things, might be prepared to subscribe something to the Minister if he would relieve them of that particular burden.

This business of two prices for the same commodity—a low price for a small ration and a bigger price for the free supply—is not a new thing. It is new in this particular part of Europe, but I read about it in many books describing life in Russia, which gave very interesting tables as to the number of hours an American would have to work for a pair of boots, and the number of months or years that a Russian worker would have to work in order to earn the money to buy a similar article. You had there the system of a very, very low ration, which was not sufficient to give a reasonable nutritional standard. If the workers wanted to buy something extra to keep going, they had to pay ten and sometimes 20 times the price that they would pay for the rationed portion of the article.

I admit that the Government have not done quite as bad as that. Butter on the free market is only 1/- or so above the price of rationed butter. Tea on the free market is not quite twice what rationed tea costs. In Russia it was ten to 20 times the price. We should, if we can, try to get away from that particular system. Notwithstanding the fact that the Labour Party are supporting it through thick and thin, it creates bad feeling throughout the country if people can say: "If I have plenty of money, I could get all the butter, tea and sugar that I want. Seeing that I have not very much, I must be content with my ration."

It does not create bad feeling in big hotels.

Deputy Davin, of course, thinks everything this Government does is perfect. If Fianna Fáil had attempted to have dual price system, plenty for the rich and little for the poor, Deputy Davin would have made the welkin ring. Gradually, since the coming into power of this Government, he has become more and more silent. He is as silent as the grave.

I am enjoying you

He never opens his mouth except, occasionally, to interrupt me. He has never made a speech on any major question in this last couple of years.

I spoke on this Estimate.

The Deputy spoke on this Estimate very briefly and very mildly.

Only for half an hour.

Indeed, in this last couple of years, and particularly in the last six months, he was becoming so silent and so respectable that I thought he was in training for a directorship. I thought he would have filled a director's chair, he was so mild.

I am not qualified.

If the Deputy keeps silent for another year or so, he may be.

He has not the qualifications required under the previous Government, anyway.

One of the qualifications that was necessary, according to the present Minister and his friends, for anybody to live in this country was to be a racketeer. Every person who put a penny in Irish industry was a racketeer and a friend of Fianna Fáil. It is not very conducive to the development of industry to have the accusation that they were racketeers made against people who were patriotic enough, and, in many cases, purely from the point of view of helping local industry or the local town, to risk their money in Irish industry. A number of these people who put money into industry did it at my own invitation, as well as at the invitation of everybody else.

I remember going to Dundalk in 1932 when Fianna Fáil came into office, and I said: "Now is your chance and it is now your duty, if you have any money, to put it into industry and to start industry." They did start industries. These people who answered that appeal, normally, if they were shopkeepers, farmers and others who had a little money in the bank, would have had much less trouble in leaving it there. They did risk their money and I do not think it was fair or wise for the groups that are now forming the Government to call them racketeers at any time. Particularly, I do not think it is right that they should continue to call them racketeers or that they should not withdraw that particular description in view of the fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce went to New York and invited people over there to invest money here.

I did not.

In the Irish Times of 4th January, 1949, Mr. Morrissey, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, is quoted at an interview with the United Press in New York on 3rd January, 1949, as follows:—

"He pointed out that the influx of U.S. capital, though of secondary importance, was desirable. `So acute is this problem—we do not want to remain a country primarily dependent on agriculture—that we will give all facilities possible within the scope of the Control of Manufactures Act to any manufacturer who wants to retain control of his investment.' "

Not only is it untrue that he did not invite foreign capital here, as the Minister has said, but he promised in New York that, within the Control of Manufactures Act, he would do everything in his power to leave them with full control of their own capital.

How could they be in full control of their own capital if they complied with the Control of Manufactures Act?

The Minister is not so foolish as a number of other people and he knows that there is power, under the Control of Manufactures Act, in the hands of the Minister to waive the condition that 51 per cent. of the capital must be Irish owned and controlled and to let a foreigner in even with 100 per cent.

That would not be complying with the Act.

It would be complying with the Act.

Who introduced the Control of Manufactures Act? The Deputy is now sending out for information.

The Minister denies the obvious. He denies that he went to New York to invite capital in here. When I quoted him he could scarcely deny it, but then he denied something in relation to the Control of Manufactures Act and I will get that Act to prove my point.

You quoted the penny a liner.

I am quoting from the paper that put this Government into office and that is keeping it in office, Deputy Davin is one of its pets.

Deputy Aiken, apparently, has little or nothing to say in relation to this Estimate, but he is trying to make up a speech with bits and pieces of what other people said.

The point I am getting at is that those who are supporting the Government should withdraw the allegation that every person who put money into Irish industry did it because he was a racketeer.

That allegation was not made by any people on these benches.

Nobody on this side made that statement.

We will get the quotation for that, too.

Out of "Scissors and Paste"?

The Leader of the Labour Party said that those people should be put in jail, inside good strong walled jails.

Some of them.

The whole of them, according to him. Deputies are now running away from the thing a bit. I want them to move a little bit further. They used to say that the people in business were all racketeers, but we are now down to the point that only some of them are racketeers. Could we not admit that an Irish person who puts his money in Irish industry is as good as an American who puts his money in Irish industry? If we have reached the stage that we send a Minister, at State expense, to America to plead with the Americans to send their capital over here, we should at least give these Americans the assurance that they will not be denounced as racketeers if they come. There is something in life as well as making money. A normal person wants to have not only a reasonable standard of living, but the good opinion of his neighbours. If he succeeds in making a few pounds or a few thousand pounds, because he is risking his capital here rather than in Timbuctoo, we should give him encouragement to do that by giving him a reasonable guarantee that we will not call him a racketeer if he makes a success of his business. I hope the next time the Minister goes to America and asks the Americans to invest their capital here, that he will be able to say: "I have got the assurance from all the Parties that support me in the Dáil that if you make a success of this business you will not be called a racketeer."

The poor flour millers!

If Deputy Aiken were allowed to make his speech, we might have an end of this discussion some time. These interruptions do not help in shortening the debate.

I saw the other day where one of the Ministers of this Government, at a convention of his Party, said there were two groups in the House that knew what they wanted.

On a point of order. May I submit, with all respect, that the Deputy ought to be kept somewhere close to the Estimate? The Deputy is talking about Ministers of the Government and people who are not in the Government; he is misquoting everybody and he has not addressed himself to the Estimate. May I suggest, again with all respect, that he should be confined to the administration of the Department for the past 12 months?

It was during the past 12 months the Minister went to America.

The Deputy is dealing with the investment of money in Irish industry.

I would like to call attention to the fact that there is not a quorum present.

How could you expect any Deputy to remain here to listen to you?

It is a complete abuse of the duty the Deputy was sent here to carry out.

I had to listen to Deputy Davin for 16 years.

All these delaying tactics are to enable a Fianna Fáil meeting to be carried on in another part of the House. The people attending that meeting should be here attending to public business.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present

I should like to hear from the Minister when he is replying what his view is of the future development of our resources and the chances of employing our people upon that development work. At one period the Minister was a great optimist and he said that within 24 hours every person looking for a job could be given it if the proper Government were in power. If anybody does not think the Minister said that, he can look up the Dáil Debates of 17th April, 1947, where Deputy Morrissey, as he then was, said:—

"I said here 12 months ago, and I want to repeat it now, that without the slightest trouble every able-bodied man and woman in this country could be put into useful work to-morrow morning. There is not a shadow of a doubt about it."

Is there a shadow of doubt about it at the present time? Is it because the Minister is not taking the "slightest trouble" to put people into employment that we have the situation that exists, that during 1949 we have 7,000 more unemployed than in 1948 notwithstanding the fact that 18,000 more people left the country? The Minister should give some explanation as to what are the difficulties and what are the considerations which made him change his mind in this regard. If he is still of the same mind that, with a proper Minister in charge of the control of industry and commerce and a proper Government in power, every person could be given useful work within 24 hours, why does he not do it? Not only in 1949 were there 7,000 more unemployed than in 1948, but in 1949, 18,000 people went out of the country. In 1948, 12,793 went out. In the last year of the Fianna Fáil Government 11,166 persons came back.

Back from the war, and the Deputy knows that.

The war was over two years at that time.

But they were not demobilised.

That is not a bad excuse.

It is the fact.

At least they were not going out to the war in 1947. The allegation was that we were sending them out, packing them out, in 1947. That was the allegation made during the general election, and it was not until 1948 that the figures came out. It was disclosed then that, instead of sending them out in 1947, 11,000 more came back than went out. If they were coming back from the war in 1947, were they going out to the war in 1948 and 1949? Are the people who are going off to the boats at the present time going to the war? One of the Fine Gael excuses when people were leaving this country at the rate of 38,000 a year was that they were going to see their friends in America.

Was that the time when they were going to sink every damn ship?

No, it was the time when they were going to bring the king to the Park.

That has nothing to do with this Estimate.

You would be delighted to see him there.

The Deputy would be delighted to see him there and he published a book about it.

I am not in the publishing line.

The Deputy was behind it, but it happened to be a couple of months before the great jump. Clann na Poblachta used to be very keen on the question of full employment. In a thousand speeches before the election they told us that they had a policy of full employment, a policy to stop emigration and so forth. Now we have not heard a bleat from Clann na Poblachta about the 18,000 people who went out last year. We had great condemnation of the Fianna Fáil policy regarding emigration during the elections although the fact was that in 1947, when these speeches were made, more people were coming back than going out.

The Deputy is repeating himself.

Clann na Poblachta have kept silent in recent months on the question of emigration.

They have not been silent.

They have been as meek as mice and every day they walk into the division lobby to support the Government.

The Government have been criticised every time we felt criticism was necessary.

That is the policy which resulted in 55,000 people leaving the land in two years and last year in 18,000 more emigrating.

I have already told the Deputy that he is repeating himself.

There are more people in industrial employment.

There are 55,000 less in agricultural employment even though we have more bullocks on the land.

Do you disapprove of that?

Is the Minister going to do anything at all about the cost of living?

The cost of high living?

The cost of low living, the cost to the ordinary person who has a modest wage and who wants to give his family a reasonable standard of living. Whatever way the cost-of-living figures are being controlled at the present time under the two-price system by the Government, the fact of the matter is that every housewife in this country knows that £1 went as far a couple of years ago as 27/6 does now. That is the universal experience of every housewife who has been accustomed to go into the grocer's shop week after week. She finds that she has to pay 27/6 now where she had formerly to pay £1 for the same quantity of goods. The Minister may congratulate himself that, owing to the two-price system, he has kept down the index figure, but if the cost of living did not go up, why is it that the Minister for Finance is taxing the people to-day with £1,000,000 to compensate civil servants, as he stated, for an increase in the cost of living? Surely there is a contradiction in that. We are putting extra taxation on the people to pay compensation to certain classes for an increase in the cost of living and we are denying at the same time that there is an increase in the cost of living.

A Deputy

Because they were previously underpaid by you.

That was not the plea. Previously, there was a clause in the agreement with civil servants that if the cost of living did not go beyond a certain point they would keep to the salary scale agreed upon. The Minister for Finance justified the additional tax on the people of this country to raise the £1,000,000 extra for compensation for civil servants on the grounds that it was to meet an increase in the cost of living. He cannot have it both ways. I wish the Government Parties would try to make up their minds as to what they want. They switch around from day to day and it is the last person who gives them a kick or exerts a bit of pressure who has his way.

I think the Minister should really do something to reduce the cost of living or to keep it within bounds. The only way I see to bring down the cost of living is to keep production up. We are not going to keep production up and provide our people with a proper standard of living unless the members of the Government take off their coats and give encouragement to those who have the money to invest it in this country. I do not think there is any necessity for the Minister to go off to America looking for money. People who have money would invest it here at home if the Minister gave them some encouragement, even if he gave as much encouragement to them as he is prepared to give to the Americans. The Government simply cannot go on in the way they have been going in the last couple of years, or the country will get into the doldrums. It is very nice to open industries that were planned or started by Fianna Fáil, but we want the Government to do a little more. We want the Government to press a button or to blow a whistle to open some industry they have promoted themselves. We hope that, as a contribution to the economic development of our country, the people here who talk about production and reducing the cost of living by 30 per cent. will be more realistic in their approach. Is that still part of the policy of the Clann na Poblachta Party for the economic development of our country?

Put up a few more posters with the three brass balls and you will quickly help to bring down the country.

Is it still Clann na Poblachta policy to reduce the cost of living by 30 per cent?

Economically, we have never changed.

Is that still the policy of the Clann na Poblachta Party?

The Deputy is repeating himself.

I suppose one thing that will never come to an end is the promises and still more promises made and broken by the Parties comprising the Government. But they cannot go on fooling all the people all the time.

You did it for 16 years.

You have done it for close on three years, but the end is approaching. I did not have an opportunity of taking part in the debate on the Transport Bill. May I say now that I think it was scandalous for the Minister to seize a building——

That does not come under this Estimate.

Part of it is in it.

It has nothing to do with administration.

It has nothing to do with this Estimate.

The Minister seized a building for civil servants.

That is not in this Estimate.

I know the Minister is sensitive about it.

The Chair is sensitive that it is not in this Estimate. Will the Deputy point out where it is?

I am talking about administration in relation to the Department of Industry and Commerce during the past year.

On a point of order.

It is not in this Estimate and, therefore, there is no need for the Minister to rise. It is not in this Estimate and I will not hear anything more about it.

On a point of order. Are we discussing the general policy and administration of the Department of Industry and Commerce over the past year?

You are supposed to be.

Was not the Bill promoted by the Minister, part of the administration of the Department of Industry and Commerce?

The matter to which the Deputy is referring was recently settled by legislation.

By a decision of this House.

By a decision of this House on a Bill.

But it was administration.

The matter was settled by a Bill in this House and it does not arise now.

If the Minister wants to please the Minister for Finance and seize a building for civil servants, all right.

It does not arise and the Deputy will not get around it in that fashion.

On a point of order. Would I be right in suggesting that, as a result of the administrative action of the Minister for Industry and Commerce during the past year, Córas Iompair Éireann decided to abandon Store Street as the site for a bus station?

The matter is not in order on this Estimate.

If it was through the administrative action——

Is it clear to the Deputy that the matter is not in order?

It is clear, at least, that you have said it is not in order and we bow to your ruling.

The Deputy did not bow very low in the remark he made.

I just bowed as low as was necessary to suit the occasion. What does the Minister propose to do in relation to civil aviation? He has no more aeroplanes to sell this year in order to get some "dibs" for the Minister for Finance. He should at least hold out some hope to us that the country will not be left in the position of being a mere baggage carrier for foreign aeroplanes' crews. I think we would have a better chance of standing on our own feet if we had some of our own planes catering for these tourists and getting some of their money instead of merely acting as porters who carry their bags. Has the Minister in mind any change of policy in regard to transatlantic air services? I hope we shall have an answer to these questions. The Government made some changes when they came in merely because a particular policy had been adopted by Fianna Fáil. I hope they will give some indication now that they regret having parted so easily with these magnificent planes for which we had paid in dollars.

That was not this year.

Perhaps they will spend some money now in getting a new fleet together. This year we would have had a splendid opportunity of earning dollars and other units of currency if we had here a fleet such as we had in 1947. We have to employ foreign companies to transport our people even to the Continent of Europe. I hope some of the Minister's supporters will encourage him to make preliminary inquiries as to the possibility of obtaining new planes. I take it that it would take a few years to get these even under present conditions. It would also take time to get the crews trained. I think the Government should make some tentative approach towards restarting a transatlantic air service. The personnel would then have the assurance that every Party here was behind the venture. They would appreciate that, as we had grown up, economic questions would be decided outside the realm of political debate.

We all realise in our hearts that, if we want to develop our industry, we must expand our technical knowledge. There is nothing so conducive to the promotion of industry as enlightened discussion among technicians. The more technicians we have the better it will be for ourselves and the easier it will be to improvise should improvisation become necessary. Last week the Minister for Finance told us about a scheme under which the Americans are granting us dollars to encourage people here who want to acquire technical knowledge to go to America or to other countries. It will be too bad if, as a result of Government action, we have to send to America for advice on some transatlantic air service and meet over there people whom this Government had sacked. I hope the Minister will give some indication that this Government has changed its mind in regard to the transatlantic air service just as it changed its mind in regard to the short-wave radio station.

Why does the Deputy repeat his statements?

This is only the second time. It is impossible for anybody to make a speech without doing so.

It would be impossible for the Deputy.

It was only my second time. I can do it but I would take very much longer the other way.

Do not try. Do not distress yourself.

Our technicians are valuable. It is essential, if they are to remain here, in view of the present opportunities in other parts of the world, that they should get an assurance from the Government and from those who support the Government that if they take employment here they will not be thrown out of that employment and that that employment will not be swept from under their feet because of pure Party politics. That is what happened to the air services across the Atlantic.

Mr. Browne

There are one or two matters which I wish to raise in connection with my constituency, and this is the only opportunity I have of doing so. The first issue is the question of Ballina and its future and with that I couple the future of the port. I am anxious to bring to the attention of the Minister the fact that it was proposed to establish a factory in Ballina about the year 1938. When the Minister is replying I hope he will explain how it came about that while the permit was issued in 1938 or 1939 in respect of the establishment of the factory in Ballina—immediately previous to the outbreak of the war—it was eventually transferred to another county. I want to refer to what happened, and I shall be brief. A firm of foreign factory promoters selected Ballina as a suitable site for a factory. As far as I know the permit was issued. After the issue of the permit, the next step was to find out what interest the local people would take in the working of the factory, and its prospects of progress and success. For that reason a local contribution was asked for. As far as I remember the figure was in the neighbourhood of £10,000 and, inside a week, the money was put up by the local people of Ballina. Later, what happened? The war broke out and, as a result, the scheme had to be postponed during the war years. All during that time the people of Ballina were hopeful that the matter would be settled and that, in the ordinary way, the factory would be established and put into operation Shortly after the end of the war we discovered, much to our surprise, that the permit in respect of the establishment of the factory at Ballina was transferred to another county, and that Ballina was, therefore, at a loss in that regard. That has caused great annoyance to the people in the area of Ballina, and to the younger people who depend on local employment. If this factory had been set up in Ballina it would give employment to a large percentage of the young people who are growing up in that town, whereas, at the moment, the outlook is not too hopeful. I hope the Minister, when he is replying, will let me know who was responsible for the transfer of the permit in question to another county. Is it that the promoters of the factory were responsible and, in any event, why is it that the local representatives of North Mayo, and those who represent Ballina, were not informed of the transfer of the permit from Ballina to another county? I represent North Mayo and I would point out that I heard nothing about a proposal to transer the permit. The first I heard of the matter was when I was given to understand that the permit had been transferred from North Mayo to another county, with the result that the factory would not be built at Ballina. At the present time it does not look hopeful that in the near future a factory will be established in Ballina. That is a serious state of affairs for a town like Ballina—a town with a population that has grown roughly from 5,000 to 7,000 people. When it was first suggested that a factory would be established in Ballina there were some middle-aged men who were anxious and keen on the project. They were younger men then than they are now. A period of ten or 12 years makes a big difference at a certain time in the life of a middle-aged man. Therefore, it would seem now as if younger people will have to face the problem and the responsibility of the provision of a factory or an industry in Ballina.

My second point, which I couple with the first, is the repair and maintenance of Ballina quay. During the emergency that quay was left practically derelict. After the cessation of hostilities it began to be possible again to import certain commodities and to export certain goods and boats were gradually coming back to the port. However, as a result of all the years during which the port was not used, it is in a very bad condition and it is almost impossible to import or to export from the quay. The harbour commissioners at Ballina have made an application for a grant and they are hopeful of an early decision. If the harbour commissioners do not get some assistance by way of a Government grant I can see no hope of trading vessels coming into Ballina or leaving it. I can see no hope of that benefit or assistance as far as the people of my constituency are concerned. Previous to the change of Government the bigger ports really had a monopoly and the smaller ports of this country were only an after-consideration. For instance, Sligo had special concessions and Dublin had special concessions. The small ports were, I might say, practically forgotten. That is a serious state of affairs for an area such as North Mayo, where there is practically no rail service and no delivery service except by road. With only a small corner of the constituency served by the railway, the port was a great advantage and a great benefit to the area as a whole. It had the advantage of being in competition with freight charges on the road and on the railway. The result was that the people in the area derived a double benefit from the point of view of a near acceptance of goods and competition as far as freight and delivery charges were concerned. I appeal to the Minister to make provision so that the application by the Ballina Harbour Commissioners for a grant towards the repair of the quay at Ballina will be given favourable consideration, thus giving us an opportunity of bringing the quay back to such a state that it will be used once more and give a good return again, as far as the port is concerned.

I now want to speak about the turf industry in the County Mayo. I, like other Deputies, was disappointed to find that Bord na Móna had decided to cease producing machine-won turf in Mayo. Let no one imagine that because the production of machine-won turf has stopped in Mayo the production of hand-won turf has ceased. At the start I had my doubts about the introduction of machines for the production of turf in such a huge area as North Mayo, where, I may say, there is a big consumption of hand-won turf. I felt that the introduction of the machines might do more injury than good in that area and that the people engaged on the production of hand-won turf were not going to benefit by the introduction of the machines. There were areas that did benefit from the introduction of the machines, but these were areas in which they had good roads and good bogs. These were areas, too, in which the workers had to be taken for miles by lorry for the production of the machine-won turf. What killed and stopped the sale of machine-won turf in my area was the cost of it. In my county you could get the best hand-won turf at about 18/- a ton in the bog or on the roadside. The machine-won turf cost 39/6 a ton on the roadside. Does any Deputy imagine that any common-sense person in my county is going to pay 39/6 a ton for machine-won turf when he can get an equally good article at 18/- a ton? No provision has been made for the sale of the machine-won turf which was produced over a number of years. It is still there. I am a member of the local authority, and certainly my colleagues and myself are in favour of giving first preference to the hand-won turf so far as all the public institutions in the county are concerned.

There has been an awful lot of talk about turf. The turf industry in Mayo is finished. The result is that we have not sufficient hand-won turf in my county. It is impossible to get a ton of it. Bord na Móna has the machine-won turf on the roadside, but the people are not going to pay 39/6 a ton for it. Its production was paid for out of the revenue collected from the people. If the Minister wants to dispose of it he will have to reduce the price and sell it at a loss. What has happened in regard to it is not going to result in a continuance of machine-won turf.

A lot has been said about the cost of living. A number of speakers on the other side have said that the cost of living has increased. I think the Deputies who make these statements should try and refresh their memories and compare the cost of certain articles since the change of Government took place and their cost before the change of Government took place. Deputies opposite have told us that the price of tea, sugar, flour, bread, butter, bacon and eggs has increased. I think that if Deputies will take the years 1946 and 1947 they will find that there was a big difference in the prices then charged for tea, sugar, bread and flour, compared with the prices which have been charged to the consumer for these commodities in 1948 and 1949. It would be very interesting if the Minister would give the retail price of tea which the consumer had to pay in November, 1947, also the retail price of sugar up to that year, as well as the retail price of flour and of the 2 lb. loaf, in comparison with the prices which the consumer has to pay for these commodities since the change of Government took place. If the Minister does that, I think it will be found that, while the consumer has had the same ration, he has had it at a lower price on the average during the last two years.

So far as butter is concerned, there is no doubt but that there was a black market in it. The same thing happened in the case of bacon and at a certain period in regard to eggs. I do not think anybody can deny that. As regards eggs, we had the lorries and the vans going through the country at a certain period of the year. There was no question as regards price. All that the people with the vans were concerned with was what they could get. Price did not matter. At that time the price of eggs was controlled here in the city. The price was not controlled last year, and so the vans and the black market have disappeared.

A Deputy from South Mayo, speaking on this Estimate last week, said:

"It is true that the cost of living has increased, irrespective of how the official index figure may cloak the increase. The housewife knows that the cost of all household goods has gone up in price."

I say that is wrong. They have not gone up in price, and that is why I asked the Minister earlier to give the figures that he must have in regard to the commodities that I have mentioned. If he does that, I think he will be able to show, despite the statement made by this Deputy, that prices, instead of having gone up, have over the period of the last two years come down. This Deputy from South Mayo went on to say:

"Some Deputy mentioned to-day that we no longer have a black market in this country. Since the advent of this Government and of the Minister we have had a Government black market in tea, sugar, butter, flour and bread..."

That is a statement made by a Deputy from South Mayo. On behalf of the people of North Mayo, I want to say that there was a black market there but that the new regulation of the non-subsidised tea, sugar and flour has done away with it. If it has not done away with the black market in South Mayo, it has done so in North Mayo. If it is correct that there is a black market in South Mayo, I would like, as a Mayo man, to see it stopped and it would serve a useful purpose if the people responsible were made pay the penalty. There was a black market in North Mayo, but it is finished, thank God; it was hard to root out, but the change of Government did that.

On a point of explanation, when I was speaking, the Minister denied that there was any power under the Control of Manufactures Act to allow Americans in here and still have control of their industry with complete American capital. If the Minister looks up the Act of 1932, Section 2 (1) (g) and also Section 6 (1), he will find that he has the power that he promised, in America, he would use to allow them in here and leave them with control of their industries.

I have no intention of holding the House unduly. My sole reason for intervening on this important Estimate is to bring to the attention of the Minister the economic plight of County Donegal and especially the condition of the Gaeltacht and congested areas. Without exaggerating it one bit, if it were not for the remittances we in West Donegal are receiving from the migratory workers employed in the fields, on the farms and in the factories of Scotland and England, the Gaeltacht area in County Donegal would be termed a very distressed area. I would ask the Minister to do what he can to assure that, when industries are being set up, the Gaeltacht and congested areas will be kept in mind, as they must depend on industries to keep alive. As the Minister will understand the position has worsened very much since the cessation of the turf industry and the collapse of the hand-woven tweed industry which was the backbone of various parts of Donegal for centuries. As far as we in Donegal can see, no effort is being made to help the homespun industry or to provide alternative employment for those thrown out of work when the turf industry stopped.

Without a supply of electricity, it would be difficult for us to interest industrialists and I would like to inform the Minister that County Donegal is not at all satisfied with the recent pronouncements of the Government in relation to the extension of rural electrification. The statement made recently proposes no more than the extension of lines to towns on a given circuit and outside those lines there are hundreds of townlands and rural areas which are being ignored entirely. We feel that the proper electrification of Donegal is being put on the long finger and that the areas which need it most will have to go without it for many years. I would impress on the Minister that the Gaeltacht areas cannot wait that long for development or help from the Government. Their plight is bad and is worsening year after year. We are now in the peculiar position in Donegal that we are importing coal through all the small ports around the Donegal coast, coal subsidised to the tune of 25/- a ton by this Government, while we are at the same time exporting our workers to the factories and coal mines of Glasgow and various parts of England. That is a mad policy for any Government to pursue and one that should be stopped at the earliest possible moment.

The cost of living has been well discussed and there is little I have to add. The last Deputy who spoke tried to make out that there was really no increase whatsoever. Any business man behind a counter knows very well that, leaving aside the cost of butter, bacon and some other foodstuffs, the cost of living is soaring rapidly in lines such as boots and shoes, general drapery and clothing. Surely the price of these commodities has a great bearing on the cost of living in any country. The farmer who buys a pair of nailed boots for himself is paying 7/- or 8/- more to-day than he did last year or the year before. The housewife who goes to the boot store to buy boots and shoes for her children knows she is paying at least 25 per cent. more than she did two years ago.

If she is, there is somebody profiteering.

There is no one profiteering—and that is the mistake the Minister is making when he does not face the fact that prices are going up. Everybody in business knows that before Christmas there will be a further increase in the price of boots and shoes.

I would be obliged if the Deputy would give particulars of the case where he says there was a 25 per cent. increase in footwear prices.

I can assure the Minister that salesmen who are now taking orders for winter boots and shoes, nailed boots and shoes for farm work, are pointing out that the price will be at least 7/- or 8/- more than last year.

I want to get particulars of the 25 per cent. increase.

I can show the Minister invoices for boots and shoes, and can show a greater increase than 25 per cent. With these increases, surely the cost of living is not falling appreciably? Then there is another item, the price of wool, which is rising, and the ceiling has not yet been reached. That will affect the price of clothing, hosiery and other lines needed by men, women and children. As long as these increases take place, it is rather dishonest to suggest that there has been a fall in the cost of living, or even that it is being held at the same figure. I think it would be honest on the part of the Minister and the Government if they pointed out to the people that these rises are taking place, because it is useless to tell a man in the country that he is buying more to-day with his £1 than he did two years ago.

At any rate, I would impress upon the Minister the necessity of doing something to help the people of the congested areas in the matter of industry. It is not an easy problem, I admit, but it is one that should be tackled and that will have to be tackled if we are honest about keeping the Gaeltacht alive. The people are leaving; the Gaeltacht is dwindling; the Irish-speaking sections are getting smaller year by year, because, instead of getting work at home on their bogs, at their homespuns or in other factories, the people have to seek work in Glasgow, Edinburgh and the English towns. It is a bad position and one which the Minister, who should have the interests of these people at heart, should do something to remedy at the earliest moment.

I will be very brief. This debate was very amusing in one way because it shows that the Government which was in power before us failed in every way according to their own members. That is really what has taken place.

Notice taken that 20 members were not present; House counted and 20 members being present

I know that the Minister is in favour of the establishment of factories in the provincial towns but no group of individuals, foreigners or others, should get a permit to start a factory where they think they can carry on with slave labour conditions. The first thing some of these people who come to this country do if the men become members of a union is to close down. I got a wire yesterday about a factory which was started in my constituency. Presumably, the man who started it was from England. Because nine of the workers became members of a union they got a week's notice and I have a telegram here from the men concerned. That happened also when a factory was started previously. The proprietors were Jews and they threatened to burn down the factory if the workers became organised. No Minister should stand for that and there will be no peace among employers or employees if people are going to take such drastic steps that, because a man becomes a member of a union, the employer is running to Dublin to close down the factory or threatening to close it down. If they think that they can go to a rural area and pay the prevailing agricultural rate in sweated shops, the Minister should immediately put his foot down. He should not allow such people to start any business if they cannot pay the trade union rate of wages. No matter what factory is started, if the people who are sweating in it day after day do not get a living wage it is no good to them. That is why we had all the talk about the turf. What was wrong in the Fianna Fáil time that the workers did not stay on the bogs? They were not paid and they had not good conditions. They were brought from their homes in the South and West of Ireland and put into camps; certain people were put over them, bossing them and dogging them day after day, and that is why they left the bogs.

We had a factory in New Ross, Irish Driver Harris Company, Limited, and from the information I have in front of me another industry of the same type is about to be started in Dublin. That competition would be very serious for the people in the town of New Ross and I think that the Minister should not allow that to happen. They are all trying to get to Dublin. I am only a stranger in the city, but when I see girls and men coming out at dinner time from the back lanes I wonder where they work. I see crowds coming out from little cabooses, and surely that is not good for the health of the workers and, from a public health point of view, it should not be tolerated.

With regard to the cost of living, in June, 1947, tea was increased from 1/2 to 4/10 a lb., and anyone who wanted anything over that could buy it in the black market at from 25/- to 30/- a lb. Is it not better to have the ration, and if you want more to produce a few shillings and get it? That is better than to have it behind the counter like the cigarettes during the war, and to have to pay a fancy price for it. I think that the system is all right, and that the people are quite satisfied. If you want a little extra tea or sugar you can get it legally.

Some Deputies spoke about the white flour being produced for the rich while the poor got the other. Why was white flour put on the market? Why were the Fianna Fáil farmers in this House saying that they could not get pollard or bran? I was 25 years in a flour mill, and I know that if you did not have white flour you could not get pollard and bran. That is why the Minister advocated white flour— to get pollard and bran for the pigs of the country. Why did Fianna Fáil inspectors close down wheaten meal mills in this country? Because they found that some people were feeding their pigs on wheaten meal. Deputy Lemass knows that he had to close down those small mills because the pigs were eating the wheaten meal that humans should be getting. Only by having some white flour can you have pollard and bran for the farmers. How would you get one cwt. of pollard or bran unless you made white flour in the flour mills? Will any Deputy tell me that?

It must be invisible. It is not in the shops.

It is not in the shops. But for the stuff that was imported from Britain and America and any other places in which foreign stuff could be got, we would never have had any pig feeding. There were special trains coming into my town with this imported stuff, because there was never enough to keep the farming community in my constituency going in the matter of pig and cattle feeding. If we had white flour for everybody, we would have more pollard and bran, and less growling from the farmers about not being able to get it. During the emergency, Deputy Lemass imported white flour from America, and, when I asked in a question if he would make available some of that white flour for the use of patients in sanatoria and hospitals, he would not agree. None of it could go to the hospitals, and there was more waste in these hospitals and sanatoria through the use of inferior and bad flour than anything else.

It was not bad.

The people were eating pollard and bran for flour and it killed half the country.

And those it did not kill have emigrated.

In any town to-day, you will see people asking for the white loaf. That is proof of what I say. New bakeries are starting all over the country, which are selling white flour, and nobody has any objection to paying a few pence more for it, because they are getting a good article. A new bakery has been started in my town, and the man is handing out white loaves as fast as he can turn them out, and the poor are queueing up for them. There is nothing wrong with it.

Except the price.

If you want a pint, you can get it at a particular price, but if you want a glass of whiskey, you will pay more for it. I want to ask the Minister to keep his promise with regard to the establishment of another beet factory. We have first claim.

New Ross. At a large meeting with the beet growers there, the ex-Minister for Agriculture, Dr. Ryan, said that experts who had come to this country had stated that New Ross was the ideal spot for such a factory. I wonder why he did not give it to us when he was in power? The farmers of Wexford are keeping Mallow, Carlow and Thurles going with their beet production. Why was the factory given to Tuam? I can tell the House. I made inquiries after that meeting in New Ross and I met a man from the West of Ireland. I asked him why did they build the factory in Tuam when they would not produce the raw material there, and he replied: " `Dev' wanted to give something to the West."

Exactly, and quite right, too.

To put a factory where there is no raw material is bad business. Deputy Beegan spoke about the rail charges. Fancy South Wexford farmers sending beet to Thurles and probably to Tuam. The farmers have to draw it to the station and send it off, and they do not know what they will get until it is made into sugar. It is washed and re-washed at the factory and it is much less in weight at that stage. The poor old farmer has to pay for all that.

With regard to hand-won turf, my constituency is not a turf-burning area but the people there will never forget the turf. They will not pass the field where it was in the dumps, lest they should see it again. I was very interested in a question put down by a Deputy on this side as to the percentage which a member of the Oireachtas had got on the coal now lying in the Park. We discovered it was 6 per cent. Why was that allowed by Deputy Lemass? Why was anybody allowed to get 6 per cent. on this coal?

That does not arise on this Estimate.

The question of coal and turf has been dragged around the House all day.

Coal in certain circumstances.

That coal is still in the Park and cannot be sold. Slate quarries have been mentioned. At the moment, people in back lanes are making tiles for roofing which are not at all suitable, and, in five or six years, new roofs will have to be put on because the tiles being put on now will fall down. There are fellows making tiles to-day, to my own knowledge, and the sooner inspectors are sent down to examine them, the better for the tenants going into these houses. Every tile is half a stone in weight, and when the timber shrinks, the house will be gone.

We had a cement works in South Wexford in years gone by, and, during 1932, at every crossroads and in every town in the county, Fianna Fáil said that, if they were put into power, they would open these cement works at Drinagh. What happened? There was a good industry there for years, and——

Who closed it?

Fianna Fáil closed it, and when the late Deputy Corish asked Fianna Fáil about their promise a Fianna Fáil Deputy said that election promises were not to be taken too seriously. That is on the records. When Fianna Fáil got into power some man named Davy Frame went down there, broke up the machinery and took it away.

Did the Deputy not back Fianna Fáil for a long time?

The workers put you in first, all right.

What are you blathering about, then?

You said: "Give us a chance." You got it, but you did not get it the next time and you will not get it again.

You will change again, too.

The change is for the better.

Deputy O'Leary is not the only one who made a change. So did Deputy O'Rourke.

And so did the Minister. He is the last man to talk about it. Did the Minister forget that?

No; I merely said that we are in the same boat.

The Minister forgot for a second.

Not at all. I was just reminding Deputy O'Rourke.

It might be hurting Deputy O'Rourke, all right.

Not a bit, unless I get into excessive laughter.

When you did not get excited the time the teachers went on strike you will never do anything. The Deputy sat there while members of his organisation were ejected from the Public Gallery one night. Do you remember that? You all quoted what people said during a general election. Deputy de Valera said he did not know what he said.

The teachers' strike has nothing whatever to do with this Estimate. Deputy O'Leary knows that.

I am sorry, a Leas-Chinn Comhairle.

Education plays a great part in it.

The flight from the land——

And the wild geese.

Yes. The wild geese had flown. I never forget that night. Why are people leaving the land? It is because some of the farmers have become so prosperous that they have bought tractors, ploughs and harrows and have a son to follow them and let the men go. That is happening in many cases. One class of farmer that should be considered are the small farmers, who are not as well off as some of the working men, who are struggling for existence on small holdings. The large farmers are all right, and Fianna Fáil or anyone on this side of the House need not worry about them. The question of emigration has been flogged on every side of the House.

The Deputy did not tell us about the flight from the land yet.

Do you object to any man leaving one job and getting a better one? I do not.

Deputy Davern would object to that.

I do not object to any man bettering himself. If men come to the City of Dublin to build houses, all the better. You cannot expect them to stay in the bogs all their lives. None of you talked about that. You tried to get away from it. Let the men go where they like. That is what I call freedom. Fianna Fáil, during the emergency, would not allow a turf worker or an agricultural worker to stir out of his own area.

Would you let them go?

Certainly. If they want to go to America or to Britain or anywhere else, let them go. That is freedom. That is what the people want. When Fianna Fáil were in power I heard Deputies from Mayo appealing to the Minister to let men go and not to stop the men of Mayo from going to Britain. Stop talking about emigration.

The Deputy has settled the problem.

My feet were sore from going to the United Kingdom Office to get permits for men who wanted to go away. That is a fact. They could not exist on what they were getting in their own areas as a result of the standstill Orders. Some farmers would not give you the daylight. Some of the farmers who were put on the Agricultural Wages Board by Deputy Lemass and Dr. Ryan would not give you the daylight. That is true.

I do not agree, and never did agree, during the emergency, with the building of luxury houses. Take, for instance, Cabinteely, where houses were built by speculative builders. Some of those houses are now for sale. Skilled labour was employed in building them that was needed by urban councils and local authorities to provide houses for the working classes.

Is not that a matter for Local Government rather than for the Minister for Industry and Commerce?

It ought to be a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce also. He might have something to do with supplies to those people. Let us have all the skilled men available for local authorities to build houses for the plain people. In Dublin, people are swarming on top of one another in some of the slums. It is a disgrace to have such a state of affairs in existence for so long. Go around Mountjoy Square.

The Deputy can say all that to the Minister for Local Government on his Estimate.

Have you not to get a licence to build a house from the Minister for Industry and Commerce? Have not you to get a licence to get timber? I want to tell the Minister here and now, if he has anything to do with the matter, that in my town a number of carpenters were laid off a housing scheme because there was no timber available. Local authorities should get priority in this matter. There is something wrong there.

I hope that the few points I have mentioned with regard to my constituency will be considered. If a beet factory is being erected, let it be erected in Ross. If a cement factory is required, open the old cement factory in Drinagh. That is what the Deputies of Wexford are here to fight for and to get, if possible.

The announcement made by the Minister in his introductory statement on this Estimate about the extension of the cement industry was very satisfactory, even though it was belated. Although there was protracted delay in arriving at the decision, it is very satisfactory to know that the Government have come to a decision to have the existing cement industries at Mungret, County Limerick, and in Drogheda extended. Deputy O'Leary, from Wexford, will not be satisfied with that. The pity of it is that this decision was not taken much earlier. I cannot understand why it took the Minister two years to arrive at a decision in regard to that very important question. When one considers all the money that is being lost in paying through the nose for imported cement, it is indeed regrettable that that decision was not taken long ago. Even although the decision has been announced, it will be another one and a half years, as we are told by the Minister, before the increased production in Mungret will be available and two years before the increased production can be available in Drogheda. That means that for a considerable time our people's money will be exported to purchase cement at a much higher price than the price of the native product. That is entirely to be regretted. Is fearr déanaí na go ro-dhéanach, mar a deireann sean-fhocal ins an Gaeilge.

There is another matter in which I am very interested and to which the Minister referred. It is the question of harbour development, particularly as it concerns the proposed development scheme that has been put forward by Limerick City Harbour Board and also by the port authority of Foynes. Foynes has put up to the Department a very ambitious programme. It will need an extension of jurisdiction to be provided for the harbour authorities. That has been before the Department since 1947, the question of an extension of the harbour facilities at Foynes, and I would like to know from the Minister whether there is any prospect of an immediate decision. There was a decision given in regard to the Limerick harbour proposition and, judging by the report in the local papers, the financial assistance forthcoming from the Government was not regarded as satisfactory and was not in accordance with the understanding that was given to the Limerick harbour authority when this matter was first raised before the change of Government.

I am specially interested in the ambitious programme for the development of Foynes Harbour. I would like a favourable decision in regard to that very important matter for all that side of the country and the South of Ireland, and I hope it will be expedited by the Department.

It is a good thing also to hear from the Minister that he is standing fast in regard to the question of the bypassing of Shannon Airport. As the Minister explained to us, that is a subject that is under consideration and it would not be correct to refer to it at any great length, but I will say this, that the Minister will have the support of the whole Dáil in taking a firm stand. Of course, there are members of the Government whose past comes very much against them in regard to that subject. I remember the Minister for Agriculture talking here once, when he was on this side, and he prophesied that the Shannon Airport would be a rabbit warren, and even the Minister for Finance said some time ago in the Seanad that it is only a crude junction. Nevertheless, it is vitally important that we should all stand fast for the honouring of the agreement arrived at when traffic to Shannon Airport started.

The Minister introduced during the year a "Buy Irish" scheme. I think the introduction of that scheme was futile. The Minister has power at his disposal to see that the people will buy Irish, and let him use it effectively. That is the only satisfactory way in which this problem can be solved, the only way of ensuring that articles that are manufactured here by our workers in our factories are purchased by the people. There should be full-blooded protection for the native article. This "Buy Irish" scheme was all right at one time when we had not power in our hands. I remember when I was a young lad I got interested in this question of Irish manufacture and I joined an organisation specially devoted to the purpose for which the Minister started this campaign. At that time the only support for Irish-manufactured articles came through voluntary agencies. Now we have the power to see that the people here buy Irish articles. There are slavish-minded people among us who always thought the foreign-manufactured article better than the native one. These people should not be given any choice; where there is a full supply of our requirements manufactured at home there should be no question of a foreign article being available.

The general policy with regard to industrial development has been discussed very extensively in this debate. Judging by the pronouncements the Minister made during the past year or the past year and a half, I am very glad to note that he and his Party have changed their attitude in regard to industrial development. I would like to congratulate the Minister on his conversion and the conversion of his Party to the idea of Ireland having a manufacturing arm as well as an agricultural arm. I am glad to see him in favour of having our industries developed. We in this Party have always stood for industrial development to the fullest extent possible. It is very satisfactory that this Government have now accepted that principle. Fine Gael, particularly, are to be congratulated on their conversion to the principle of full industrial development, providing here all the requirements of our people in so far as it can be done.

We have always stood for full protection for Irish industries, for worthwhile Irish industries, with suitable safeguards to provide for the consumers, the people who use our industrial products. We will not stand over inefficient production at unreasonable prices. Given fair conditions for those engaged in the industry and the putting of the article on the market at a reasonable price, there should be no question whatever of having to go outside for anything. I am glad that the value of the policy put into operation by Fianna Fáil since 1932 is now being accepted generally in this House and, where the Minister pushes ahead with the industrial programme inaugurated in 1932 and continued when Fianna Fáil was in power, this Party will be behind him in order to secure full-blooded industrial development.

I want to support the appeal of Deputy Breslin with regard to the industrial development of the congested areas in the Gaeltacht. It is very hard to get people with money to invest in industry to go to certain places and establish industries there. A very serious effort will have to be made to secure as much ruralisation of industries as possible, particularly now with the extension of rural electrification. I hope the Minister's conversion and his Party's conversion in regard to industrial development is genuine. There may be some cracks in the armour still because, while the Minister has been applauding the efforts of Irish industrialists, a colleague of his not very long ago called Irish industrialists simply licensed plunderers. It is very hard to know, in regard to Government policy, who is to be accepted as the oracle, the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Agriculture, who spoke of industrialists as licensed plunderers. This debate has changed in tone from the debates we remember in the past in regard to industrial development. We used to hear about back-lane factories and child labour. The Minister has had two years to investigate these matters and I invite him to tell us has he discovered any of the back-lane factories or the child labour and, if he has, what has he done about them?

We have had a good deal of talk about the importance of the tourist industry. The Minister referred to it in his introductory remarks. Of course, Fine Gael and the rest of the Parties on the Government Benches—the Parties supporting the Government— have rather a past, too.

Forget the past.

I did not hear the remark of the Deputy.

Forget the past and think of the future.

The Deputy would like to see that done. He would like to forget the past because the past is pretty lurid for some of you over there and you do not like to be reminded of it.

He said to forget your own past.

We have no reason to forget our past. We can be proud of what we did since we came into this House. We can be proud of our efforts during the years we were in office. Our aim was to develop the country and to make it free. We succeeded in doing that and we have nothing to be ashamed of to-day.

There is nothing to be ashamed of on this side either.

Deputy O'Brien is entitled to speak without interruption.

Donnchadh Ó Briain, más é do thoil é.

Tá go maith. An Teachta Ó Briain.

Donnchadh Ó Briain is ainm dom agus do toghadh mé mar Dhonnchadh Ó Briain.

Níl aon bhaint aige sin leis an ceist seo.

Tá gach baint aige leis.

On a point of order. Is the Chair not entitled to address the Deputy as Deputy O'Brien, seeing that the Constitution provides that English and Irish may be used on an equal basis?

Do toghadh mé mar Dhonnchadh Ó Briain, agus ba chóir Donnchadh Ó Briain do thabhairt orm.

Tá an ceart ag an Teachta. Ní maith liom go gcuirfeadh éinne isteach air.

I want to explain for the benefit of the Deputy, who does not understand Irish, that this is a question of principle with me. I was elected as Donnchadh Ó Briain. That was the name forwarded to the Clerk of the Dáil and the name which appeared on the ballot paper. Perhaps it would have been better for me, from the point of view of the public, if the name had appeared in English on the ballot paper.

The Deputy is quite right. He should be called Donnchadh Ó Briain. Having said that, I hope the Deputy will now continue his speech.

I think it is not a matter for a joke. It is a matter of principle, the restoration of the Irish language—and the question of the use of Irish Christian names and surnames. It is a principle for which I have always stood. I was talking about the development of the tourist industry. There is, first of all, the question of foreign visitors, and the question of the provision of facilities for our own holiday makers. I am interested in the question of tourism, particularly from the point of view of the Gaeltacht areas. I understand the Tourist Board devoted some attention to that problem in the years gone by. What has been done in regard to it in the past few years I do not know. There was the question of the development of Gaeltacht areas as holiday centres. The two things can be combined— holidays and visits to Irish-speaking districts. Many people in this country who are interested in perfecting their knowledge of Irish and in the restoration of the language would visit Gaeltacht areas during their holidays if proper facilities were provided for them. I am glad that we all seem to be of the same opinion with regard to the value of the tourist industry. We all know that we were not of the same opinion in regard to that question some time ago, when tourists were called "spivs" and it was said that they should be taxed.

The Minister has had to listen to a very long debate on this Estimate and I do not think it would be fair to detain him much longer but I should like, when he is replying, if he would tell us something in regard to the schemes for harbour development that are pending in his Department and on which the Department seems to be very slow in arriving at a decision. I should like particularly to hear something in regard to the harbour development scheme at Foynes, County Limerick.

Mr. Blaney

In this lengthy debate, there has been a great deal of talk about the cost of living, so much so that I think it could be agreed that enough has been said on that subject, were it not for the fact that we find Deputies on the Government side of the House who still believe, or pretend to believe, that no increase has taken place. How they can stand up and tell the people that no increase has taken place is a mystery to me. It certainly takes a brass neck or a wooden neck to try to get away with an argument of that kind. While they might get away with it and get it on the records of this House, I think the best judges of the question of the cost of living are the people outside and particularly Irish housewives. They know, as most people must know now, that when they go into the shops to buy any of the necessaries of life these things cost considerably more than they did two years ago. We had a Deputy on the other side of the House a short while ago who said that as compared with prices in 1946, an actual decrease has taken place in the price of certain commodities. While that may or may not be correct, the fact is that the price of foodstuffs, taking them all down the line of rationed foodstuffs, has increased since 1948. There are two items very much in the news, one of them in particular, in the past few weeks. They are potatoes and flake or oatmeal. Why has the price of these commodities jumped to the extent they have? It is due primarily to the interference of other Departments with the industries which produce these commodities. Nevertheless, whether it is the Department of Agriculture is responsible for the shortage of potatoes this year——

Or the Deputy.

Mr. Blaney

——or the increase in prices——

The Deputy was talking about a brass or a wooden neck a while ago.

Mr. Blaney

Has the Minister anything to say about it?

I have. The neck is brass but apparently the wood applies a little higher up.

Mr. Blaney

I can see that when I look over there. The shortage of potatoes in the market for the past four or five months is due to the fact that for the previous two years, under the present Government and under the control of the Minister for Agriculture, we had a glut in the market for potatoes and in the market for oats.

You told them not to grow any more.

Mr. Blaney

Just a second. That was in 1948. In 1948 they were told to grow potatoes and oats. The result was that there was no market nor was there a good price for these commodities. Naturally enough, as a result of that, less of these commodities was grown in the following years. That is exactly what happened. Added to that was the fact that the Minister for Agriculture——

The Deputy is now discussing agricultural policy.

Mr. Blaney

I am not.

The Chair says you are.

Mr. Blaney

I understood that you were asking me was I discussing agricultural policy.

Mr. Blaney

I am not discussing agriculture, but what I am discussing is the question of the price of potatoes and oats.

The Deputy will not discuss agricultural policy and he will not shout at the Chair.

Mr. Blaney

I am not endeavouring to shout at the Chair.

The Deputy will have to leave agricultural policy.

I suggest the Chair should prevent the Deputy being shouted down by the Minister.

Well, well!

I did not allow anybody to shout down the Deputy.

Deputy Lemass was not listening. He has only just come into the Chamber.

Mr. Blaney

Getting back to the question of potatoes and oatmeal, these are two items the price of which should enter into the calculation of the cost-of-living figure. The price of these commodities has gone up and surely anybody on that side of the House should know——

I have nothing to do with the price of either oatmeal or potatoes.

On a point of order. The Deputy is entitled to argue that the Minister should have some function.

The only reason why I allowed Deputy Blaney to speak about the matter is that it may affect the cost of living.

Deputy Lemass should leave the baby alone. He is well able to look after himself.

Mr. Blaney

There is the question of the cost of flake meal. The Minister has direct control over the price of that commodity.

I have not.

The Minister says he has no control.

On a point of order. The Minister had control, but he surrendered that power by revoking the price control Order.

Mr. Blaney

Am I not entitled to criticise the Minister for that action?

The Deputy is not doing that.

The Minister has no power.

He has power to take control over it by legislation.

By legislation? If the Minister says he has no control, then he has none.

I want to argue the point that the Minister has power to exercise control over the prices of these commodities. He revoked the Order which gave him that power. That action of the Minister is open to criticism on this occasion.

It is not being so criticised.

That is not the method by which the Deputy is seeking to criticise the Minister.

Deputy Lemass is, of course, trying to get in a heat.

It is a heat in a good cause.

Mr. Blaney

It was the Minister himself who gave the lead. I merely wanted to mention these things in passing. Had the Minister not intervened there would not have been any of this talk. Now that he has intervened, it is as well that the matter should be discussed. I introduced these two commodities merely because of their effect on the cost of living. The Minister has revoked the Order controlling the price of flake meal. As a result of that, the price has increased considerably. Surely the Minister should now realise that he ought to give himself the power to control it again. The reason for the high prices of flake meal and oatmeal is because of scarcity; that scarcity is due, as I have already said, to maladministration in another Department.

Towards the end of last year and early this year we believed in Donegal that we would shortly have rural electrification extended to our county. In 1945, when the Electricity Supply (Amendment) Act was passed, the people in Donegal and elsewhere welcomed the proposed project. The present Minister for Industry and Commerce welcomed that measure. The then Minister for Industry and Commerce was congratulated at the time by the leader of every Party comprising the Opposition. The present Minister, when referring to that measure, had only one grievance. He thought that the £40,000,000 was not enough. Coming back to more recent times and localising this matter, what do we find? We thought in Donegal that once the Erne scheme was under way our county would be one of the first to be supplied with electricity. Towards the end of last year, or early this year, we were suddenly made aware that that would not be the case. Our county was not to have the benefit of rural electrification as soon as we expected it would. There were other areas further south to which the current had to be sent and the people in Donegal would have to wait. A deputation was arranged with the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Taoiseach. It was made plain at that deputation that the principal reason why rural electrification was not being extended to Donegal was the high cost of doing so. A figure of £1,000,000 was mentioned as Government subsidy. Apparently, £1,000,000 was too big a figure for the Government to advance in order to give our county the benefits of rural electrification; but £40,000,000 was not enough in 1945.

If we divide that £40,000,000 by every county, surely Donegal would be entitled to something over £1,000,000 in Government expenditure on rural electrification. About a fortnight ago the Minister, in answer to a question, gave us to understand, at column 22 of Volume 121 of Official Report of 16th May, 1950:—

"... it has not been possible to supply other rural areas in County Donegal owing to the fact that the current at present available to the board for the county is limited and is sufficient only to meet the existing level of consumption."

In 1944 it was lack of money. Now it is lack of current. But, though there is not sufficient current to supply Donegal, there is sufficient to give a main line from Donegal to North Dublin. Will the Minister now tell us that it is a case of not having sufficient money to give us the scheme? It certainly cannot be a case of not having enough current since, when the scheme is in full production, the amount required for Donegal would not be missed. The reason for the change of face is, apparently, the fact that the Minister could not get away with the statement that he was precluded by law from giving more than a 50 per cent subsidy, despite the fact that, in 1944, when that subsidy was mentioned by Deputy Lemass, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, he stated that a subsidy on a figure of 50 per cent. was fixed tentatively on half the capital cost of constructing the network and the subsidy would have to be subject to review as experience might warrant.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again later.
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